Israeli air strike kills 7 Canadians in Lebanon

[elfin buddy]

Just saw this when I got into work this morning.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html

Can't everyone just frigg off and get along? So, as a result, Harper has commissioned two commercial ships to take Canadian citizens from Lebanon to somewhere safer (Cyprus, maybe?).

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/07/17/canadians-lebanon.html

What do you think Bush would have done if it were Americans that were killed, instead of Canadians? Would he consider it an act of war? Disown his citizens as terrorists? Or just push to evacuate Americans from Lebanon?

[eva01]

if israel ended up killing a few american citizens, i am guessing nothing would happen

[elfin buddy]

if israel ended up killing a few american citizens, i am guessing nothing would happen

What makes you think that?

[eva01]

What makes you think that?

Because it is Israel

Has the US ever done anything negative to israel?

Remember the country that enjoys vetoing things in the UN in favor of israel.

[elfin buddy]

Because it is Israel

Has the US ever done anything negative to israel?

Remember the country that enjoys vetoing things in the UN in favor of israel.

Aye, but has Israel ever killed any Americans? The US is over-protective of Israel, but also of its own citizens.

[satty]

Aye, but has Israel ever killed any Americans? The US is over-protective of Israel, but also of its own citizens.

USS Liberty springs to mind, although the Israel armee killed American Sailors not cilvilians in this incident.

[PlaceofDis]

Things are just getting worse over there.
makes me shutter to think of what the future holds.

scary times we're living in, and could only get worse methinks. but i'm a pessimist.

[Ugg]

Aye, but has Israel ever killed any Americans? The US is over-protective of Israel, but also of its own citizens.

Rachel Corrie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie) comes to mind. The evidence isn't clear but it's likely she was intentionally killed. I'm sure that if one dug deeper there are a lot more suspicious deaths out there.

[satty]

Twenty eight British People died in this attack, although it happened before the establishment of Israel: King David Hotel Bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing)

Interestingly, this terror attack was ordered by Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin was leader of the terror group executing it.

[codo]

It's not good.

[satty]

Just read what John Bolton said:

Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same as terror victims (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon)

This must be another total low in American Foreign Policy.
What makes it different if one side or the other kills an innocent cilvilian?

[mactastic]

Well that's certainly productive diplomatic language...

[XNine]

I think the difference is that most palestinian deaths can be attributed to "casualties of war" causes and the israeli deaths can be atrributed to "stupid ****ing religious fanatics with bombs strapped to themselves." That's why the media and most of the world sees Israel differnetly than the Middle Eastern countries (which mostly fall under Muslim control/belief).

I see it that way too, for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I think both of them are in the wrong, but the majority of Israel's attacks ARE trying to take out guerillas, not shopping centers and day cares and buses. Extreme Islam controls Palestine and the majority of countries near by. Extreme Islam is like Scientologists with military weaponry...

That's why there's such a large difference in view.

[satty]

I think the difference is that most palestinian deaths can be attributed to "casualties of war" causes and the israeli deaths can be atrributed to "stupid ****ing religious fanatics with bombs strapped to themselves." That's why the media and most of the world sees Israel differnetly than the Middle Eastern countries (which mostly fall under Muslim control/belief).

I see it that way too, for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I think both of them are in the wrong, but the majority of Israel's attacks ARE trying to take out guerillas, not shopping centers and day cares and buses. Extreme Islam controls Palestine and the majority of countries near by. Extreme Islam is like Scientologists with military weaponry...

That's why there's such a large difference in view.

John Bolton, like the rest of the USA government, don't care about Arabs or Muslim deaths anyway.

His statement was not about the dead people, in this case Canadian citizens, but the difference it makes according to him who killed them. It must be comforting for the family and relatives of the casualties, that they were not killed by "dirty Arab Terrorists" but the "holy Israel Military", which makes it morally justifiable.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Not true, the problem is Extreme Islam killing whoever, PLO,Hamas,Hezbolla,Taliban,Al-queda etc etc. These people are taught to except nothing but their extreme form of a primitive religion written by a bunch of primitives for primitives.:cool:

[mactastic]

Kind of like Kids on Fire? (http://www.alternet.org/movies/37373/)

[nbs2]

These people are taught to except nothing but their extreme form of a primitive religion written by a bunch of primitives for primitives.:cool:
Primitive religion? What is Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Wicca, etc. Really, you are leaving the Scientologists, Ba'hai, and I believe the Sikhs. Written by primitives? Keep in mind that much of what we take for granted scientifically was developed by the Arabs. It is arguable that we are barely reaching the point where Islam was centuries ago. And maybe we can discuss the social improvements that existed in Islam. It took women until the 20th century to achieve equality that they had years ago. I honestly think a lot of the changes to Islam were a result of Western imposition of culture and values in prior centuries. And calling them primitive seems xenophobic to say the least...they are the ones making a killing off of our greed...

That being said, I'd love to see a suit against Israel by the families of the Canadians (I guess American lawyers are good for something). I imagine it would force Israel to admit they are at war (and thus not responsible since they would not owe them a duty...) or incur liability.

[satty]

Not true, the problem is Extreme Islam killing whoever, PLO,Hamas,Hezbolla,Taliban,Al-queda etc etc. These people are taught to except nothing but their extreme form of a primitive religion written by a bunch of primitives for primitives.:cool:

Are you okay?

Another interesting observation

There are still ten thousands of western citizens in Lebanon, mainly from USA, Canada, France, Great Britain, Germany. Those people get attacked by the Israeli Military without their wrong-doing.

Not a single government of those western countries asked Israel to stop those attacks on their citizens, apart from an half-attempt by France.

How much do the western governments care about the lives of their own citizens?
Do the western governments share the Israel view, that two abducted and three, arguable eight, killed soldiers are worth more than the lives of dozens maybe even hundreds of western citizens?
Who is the "real super-power" in western politics?

My and your government has obviously no problem to sacrifice their own citizen for the Israeli cause.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Religions are all the same, mind control B.S. from thousands of years ago that will be $$$ please. I like science, science just explains gods creation nothing more nothing less. I also like what Jesus said Love God 1st & each other as yourself screw all those religions. Leave Israel alone and im sure they will leave everyone else alone but Its Hezbolla's turn isnt it? Lebanon has ignored what Hezbolla has been doing. Its not Ok to kidnap,or lob rockets,etc. Then to hide among civilians......sorry SOBs. Israel should just go land grab with the threat of never giving any of it back. edit Or threaten the dome of the Rock,stop the crap or we will send you a bunch of pebbles. I bet Islam would reel in these extremists.

[nbs2]

science just explains gods creation nothing more nothing less...Its not Ok to kidnap,or lob rockets,etc. Then to hide among civilians......sorry SOBs. Israel should just go land grab with the threat of never giving any of it back.
I don't get the first statement, but I'll let it go...and I didn't get what Jesus has to do with Jews and Muslims

Not ok to kidnap/lob rockets? I'll agree with you. It's a vile act to take people prisoner and not release them simply because you believe that they may intend to do you harm. I also believe that lobbing rockets into areas where you know there are civilians is disturbing. So, when is Israel going to stop? Is it right to keep people locked up because you think they may be terrorists? Mossad is supposed to be the best of the best in the area, but they can't figure out who is who? Killing 15 civilians because you heard there might be a terrorist there is proper? I would love to see how that would go over in SE DC when families are destroyed to bring down the people who are on a killing spree...

Killers hiding among civilians is bad, fine. Does that mean that if they weren't hiding, you would be fine with Israel taking them prisoner? Isn't that was has just happened here?

As for taking land and threatening not to give it back? Is the goal here to destroy the lives of civilians or destroy those who oppose you. Maybe we are missing something important here - I remember not so long ago, the people of A were beaten in a war and their economy and society destroyed. In fact their neighbors in B hated them so much, they were ruthless in their treatment of A's citizens. Eventually, the people of A had so little hope in their lives, they found what they believed the be the source of their problems and sought to destroy it. That genocide is what we call the Holocaust. Sometimes history is our best teacher...

[Dont Hurt Me]

I have no response, they have been killing for centuries.................thousands of years, guess they havent had enough. I dont any see any country based in Islam letting its neighbors to live and let live. Seems they have said they are the only true religion. wake up. All religions are false. None are right. Not a one. Thats the truth.

[nbs2]

Indonesia, Afghanistan wasn't going after anybody (just it's own), some seem to think Iraq, Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Georgia wants to be left alone but Russia won't.

Countries based in any religion (or none at all) all have violent tendencies...

[Dont Hurt Me]

Man has a screw loose, its why ET isnt social with us but I cant blame em. We are a mess, live and let live isnt in the agenda.

[aaron.lee2006]

It's rediculous that people can't get along. I mean come on, "I'm gonna take your soldiers to piss you off". In my opinion (ones mans opinion) As soon as those hostages were taken I knew there were gonna be major problems.

[codo]

It's rediculous that people can't get along. I mean come on, "I'm gonna take your soldiers to piss you off". In my opinion (ones mans opinion) As soon as those hostages were taken I knew there were gonna be major problems.

But does that action mean Israel has the right to kill 200+ innocent Lebanese people? I don’t think so.

Israel are truly out of line in their responce to the "threat" of Hezbollah - It's not acceptable.

[sushi]

Israel are truly out of line in their responce to the "threat" of Hezbollah - It's not acceptable.
Negative.

Hezbollah conducted what would be called an act of war.

Hezbollah is not innocent. They attacked Israel when they killed soldiers as well as capturing two of them. Israel has a right to defend itself.

[codo]

Negative.

Hezbollah conducted what would be called an act of war.

Hezbollah is not innocent. They attacked Israel when they killed soldiers as well as capturing two of them. Israel has a right to defend itself.

I agree and disagree. I didn’t claim Hezbollah are an innocent party.

But proportionally, Israel is inflicting carnage and destruction far beyond a reasonable, dare I say legal, amount. The Lebanese civilian deaths are in the hundreds, Israeli deaths are in double figures. If the British or American military killed 200 + innocent civilians in Iraq to rescue 2 soldiers, there would be an absolute chorus of condemnation - Rightly so.

[dogbone]

7 Canadians die, what's the big deal.

6 Canadians die every day from accidentally falling. Since the conflict began about 50 canadians have died from falling.

http://www.acbr.com/fas/causdeat.htm

[dogbone]

...The Lebanese civilian deaths are in the hundreds, Israeli deaths are in double figures...

And why is this? Could it be perhaps that Hezbollah has set up it's military machine in civillian neighborhoods? That only 200 civillians have died in such a highly populated area is a testament to the care that Israel is putting into not harming civillians unnecessarily.

Do you suggest that terrorists can set up a war machine in civillian neighborhoods and thus be immune from any form of retaliation?

[skunk]

And why is this? Could it be perhaps that Hezbollah has set up it's military machine in civillian neighborhoods?Perhaps it is also because the Israelis are using the full resources of a US-equipped military, whereas Hezbollah are firing ancient rockets from insecure locations. It's not exactly symmetrical warfare. You can't perform surgery with a 1000lb bomb.

[dogbone]

Perhaps it is also because the Israelis are using the full resources of a US-equipped military, whereas Hezbollah are firing ancient rockets from insecure locations. It's not exactly symmetrical warfare. You can't perform surgery with a 1000lb bomb.

I don't see the correlation between the age of Hezbollahs rockets and them setting up their military launching pad in civillian areas.

[skunk]

I don't see the correlation between the age of Hezbollahs rockets and them setting up their military launching pad in civillian areas.Since they have no possible air defence capability, what option do they have? Concealment is their only security.

[dogbone]

Since they have no possible air defence capability, what option do they have? Concealment is their only security.

But Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation. They are sponsored by Syria which has been occupying Lebanon until recently and assassinated their prime minister! What right do Hezbollah have to operate their military from within civillian neighborhoods? You talk as if Hezbollah are the legitimate Lebanese army.

Do you think that hiding a defacto army armed with Iranian misssiles within a civilian neighborhood should give them immunity from retaliation? Do you think if Israel relocated it's army to central Haifa that the Hezbollah rockets would stop?

[skunk]

Do you think that hiding a defacto army armed with Iranian misssiles within a civilian neighborhood should give them immunity from retaliation?No. I think that if you have no fixed military facilities, no air defence and limited offensive capacity, but a working relationship with the local population, you naturally fight a guerilla war.

[dogbone]

No. I think that if you have no fixed military facilities, no air defence and limited offensive capacity, but a working relationship with the local population, you naturally fight a guerilla war.

This line of reasoning started with Cody complaining about the 200 dead as if it were a massive number under the circumstances. (for the record it's about a long weekends worth of Sunnis and Shias blowing themselves up in Iraq) (or about a month's worth of Candadians falling off things). Is it Israel's fault that Hezbollah didn't arrange air cover before starting their guerilla war? Should Israel not retaliate against anyone who is not adequately armed? I'm not suggesting of course that Zelzal rockets with a range of 130kilometers cannot do serious damage.

[skunk]

When you consider that this bombardment was instigated by the kidnap of one soldier, and that not even by Hezbollah, the lack of proportionality is truly staggering.

[dogbone]

When you consider that this bombardment was instigated by the kidnap of one soldier, and that not even by Hezbollah, the lack of proportionality is truly staggering.

But it wasn't was it. Two soldiers were kidnapped and 8 were killed outright in the attack. The attack on Hezbollah was not because of the Gaza kidnap. That you feel a need to distort the facts shows that your point is flimsy. However as you rightly say the original (Hezbollah) attack and kidnapping was the "trigger" however that doesn't mean that Israel cannot now expand it's agenda to eliminate the thread of rogue militias with thousands of Iranian rockets on it's border.

In fact Israel didn't know beforhand the Iranian firepower that was really ranged against it until this whole event escalated. So that in itself is a good thing.

[skunk]

But it wasn't was it. Two soldiers were kidnapped and 8 were killed outright in the attack. The attack on Hezbollah was not because of the Gaza kidnap. That you feel a need to distort the facts shows that your point is flimsy. However as you rightly say the original (Hezbollah) attack and kidnapping was the "trigger" however that doesn't mean that Israel cannot now expand it's agenda to eliminate the thread of rogue militias with thousands of Iranian rockets on it's border.My apologies for getting the numbers wrong, I've been out of the country for a while and was a bit rusty on the news, but it alters little.

[dogbone]

My apologies for getting the numbers wrong, I've been out of the country for a while and was a bit rusty on the news, but it alters little.

Yeah OK but the point is that the attacks on South Lebanon which unfortunately are not free of civillian casualties were triggered by the Hezbollah incursion but are now about neutralising Hezbollahs rocket capabilities.

It is telling that there is precious little condemnation from other Arab countries apart from Syria and Iran. It's also worth noting that although some 30 Lebanese soldiers have been killed, they have been ordered not to retaliate. This would seem to suggest that Hezbollah are not that welcome in Lebanon.

[stubeeef]

Havinig rockets reign down randomly upon your family, from roof tops of buildings full of innocent civilians is worse than the V2's of WWII.

And taking those out was a VERY HIGH priority, but I am not aware of them being launched from civilian areas.

I think DogB had the summation correct in that this is not the Lebonese Army, they are not backed by Lebonon. They are a terrorist group, funded and supported by Syria and Iran, openly, who have invaded Lebonon to wage war on Israel. They started this fight by kidnapping and killing Israelis, in Israel, and have stated this is only the begining.

While I have seen diplomatic pictures of negotiations at a table w/Israelis, I have not seen the table of negotiators sitting down with Hezb. If I was an Israeli at the table my first statement would be something like, "What news do you bring me about my adversary and their intent."

I am saddened by the deaths of all the civilians, Canadians as well.

[satty]

But Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation.

Only the western governments and media are calling them a "terror organisation". Similar to the Hamas in Palestine the Hezbollah is also doing social and communal work, i.e. running hospitals, schools etc. for the local people and are also involved in politics. Members of the Hezbollah are in the Lebanese government.


They are sponsored by Syria which has been occupying Lebanon until recently and assassinated their prime minister!


I don't know who's sponsering Hezbollah. The weapons might be from Syria and Iran, but I would think the financial support is coming from many, many more countries.

The "occupation" of Lebanon by the Syrian armee stopped the civil war there. So many people were not unhappy with Syria being there.

I never saw any proof that Hariri, Lebanon's former prime minister, was killed by Syria, so could you please provide a link where you got this information from. I only know the Western Governments would like a link between the murder and Syria very much.

[satty]

Yeah OK but the point is that the attacks on South Lebanon which unfortunately are not free of civillian casualties were triggered by the Hezbollah incursion but are now about neutralising Hezbollahs rocket capabilities.


Bombing Beirut will not destroy any rockets at all!

They even attacked towns north of Beirut and I read somewhere, that they even bombed Christian areas. It would be a foolish to think this is only about destroying the Hezbollah military capacities.


It is telling that there is precious little condemnation from other Arab countries apart from Syria and Iran. It's also worth noting that although some 30 Lebanese soldiers have been killed, they have been ordered not to retaliate. This would seem to suggest that Hezbollah are not that welcome in Lebanon.

I doubt the Lebanese armee has the capacity to "retaliate". I am pretty sure they have already enough bombs and rockets dropping on them.

Many Lebanese still see the Hezbollah as some sort of security against the "Israel aggressor".

[stubeeef]

Many Lebanese still see the Hezbollah as some sort of security against the "Israel aggressor".

Israel the aggressor???:p Speaking of propaganda! They withdrew from S Lebonon. They have withdrawn from lots of areas, only to be attacked from the land they reliquished. Israel has lots of faults, we don't need to make up new ones.

[dogbone]

Bombing Beirut will not destroy any rockets at all!...


I doubt that you are privy to the operational intelligence that drives the bombing raids. I for one do not think that the Israelis are bombing close to civillian targets for fun. Although you may.

[Peterkro]

7 Canadians die, what's the big deal.

6 Canadians die every day from accidentally falling. Since the conflict began about 50 canadians have died from falling.

http://www.acbr.com/fas/causdeat.htm

The September 11th attack on NY was only about two or three weeks of vehicle deaths in the US,see how dumb that comparison was?

As for the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers you could just as easily say the kidnapping and incarceration of thousands of
Palestinians and Lebanese was the cause.There are no easy answers and all sides are acting in a horrendous and murderous fashion.

[dogbone]

The September 11th attack on NY was only about two or three weeks of vehicle deaths in the US,see how dumb that comparison was?


You are trying to compare 3,000 dead with 7 dead and you call my example Dumb? Am I to now expect you to sneak some personal insults into the rest of your posts or was that an abberation.

[skunk]

You are trying to compare 3,000 dead with 7 dead and you call my example Dumb? Am I to now expect you to sneak some personal insults into the rest of your posts or was that an abberation.I believe the point is more to do with making completely irrelevant statistical comparisons.

[Peterkro]

You are trying to compare 3,000 dead with 7 dead and you call my example Dumb? Am I to now expect you to sneak some personal insults into the rest of your posts or was that an abberation.
My point being the comparison was dumb not you.:rolleyes:

Mind you if the cap fits...

[satty]

Israel the aggressor???:p Speaking of propaganda! They withdrew from S Lebonon. They have withdrawn from lots of areas, only to be attacked from the land they reliquished. Israel has lots of faults, we don't need to make up new ones.

It's not necessarily my view, but the view of the people living next to Israel. I don't think that the people look at the events of the last couple of years there, but multiple decades.

The main reason for Israel to leave South Lebanon was not good will, but the high cost in material and lives. Which makes it unlikely they are going to occupy it again.

[dogbone]

I believe the point is more to do with making completely irrelevant statistical comparisons.

I was making the point that 7 people accidentally being killed is no big deal really.

[skunk]

I was making the point that 7 people accidentally being killed is no big deal really.Being killed in an airstrike or artillery bombardment is not an "accident".

[dogbone]

Being killed in an airstrike or artillery bombardment is not an "accident".

How did I know you were going to say that. Indeed it is. Or are you suggesting that the Israeli airforce deliberately targeted the Canadians?

[skunk]

How did I know you were going to say that. Indeed it is. Or are you suggesting that the Israeli airforce deliberately targeted the Canadians?Does it matter? They did not fire their missile by accident.

[Sayhey]

This line of reasoning started with Cody complaining about the 200 dead as if it were a massive number under the circumstances. (for the record it's about a long weekends worth of Sunnis and Shias blowing themselves up in Iraq) (or about a month's worth of Candadians falling off things). Is it Israel's fault that Hezbollah didn't arrange air cover before starting their guerilla war? Should Israel not retaliate against anyone who is not adequately armed? I'm not suggesting of course that Zelzal rockets with a range of 130kilometers cannot do serious damage.

Why do I think you would believe it was a very, very big deal if it was 200+ Israeli dead. And if it was you would be right. To try to minimalize the enormity of these innocent deaths is foolish.

I don't think anyone is saying Israel should not defend itself. That, however, doesn't mean Israel is exempt from criticism when it takes actions that cause all of these civilian deaths and bring the region closer to a broader war. Perhaps, in addition to defending itself, Israel should look to diplomatic solutions with its neighbors? I know it is a radical concept but it has worked in the past.

[blackfox]

Or are you suggesting that the Israeli airforce deliberately targeted the Canadians?

Maple syrup exports to the region have been halted indefinitely.

[satty]

I doubt that you are privy to the operational intelligence that drives the bombing raids. I for one do not think that the Israelis are bombing close to civillian targets for fun. Although you may.

I do not want to see any civilians killed!

And please don't tell me that all the 200+ civilian deaths in Lebanon so far were people standing next to rocket launcher.

[dogbone]

Maple syrup exports to the region have been halted indefinitely.

Seeing as Hezbollah headquarters has been flattened like a pancake, they could do with some maple syrup.

[dogbone]

Does it matter? They did not fire their missile by accident.

By this sort of reasoning there is no such thing then as a traffic accident because everyone gets into their cars on purpose.

[sushi]

Okay, I look at it very differently.

Do you enjoy worrying about being shot at, bombed, or attacked when traveling to certain foreign countries? How about loved ones who are traveling?

Do you enjoy all the added airport security, and hence huge waste of money, ensuring the airways are safe?

Do you enjoy seeing your tax dollars go to homeland type defense vice normal peacetime functions?

Note, i tried to make these generic to apply to most free countries. My point is, that the terrorists are changing our way of life. That bothers me a lot. And what bothers me even more is how some folks can try to rationalize why they are the way they are. Sorry. But I say remove them from the Earth.

I know this may sound harsh. But darn it. I remember living a much more open and free life before these individuals ruined it for everyone else.

Why should billions be affected by thousands? It isn't right.

Get rid of them I say. The only good terrorist is a dead one!

Let Israel remove the Hezbollah -- it will be a great start!

[blackfox]

Seeing as Hezbollah headquarters has been flattened like a pancake, they could do with some maple syrup.
Nice to see somewhere is a canadian bacon of hope.

[skunk]

By this sort of reasoning there is no such thing then as a traffic accident because everyone gets into their cars on purpose.Specious argument. A car is not designed to explode on reaching its destination.

[blackfox]

Okay, I look at it very differently.

Do you enjoy worrying about being shot at, bombed, or attacked when traveling to certain foreign countries? How about loved ones who are traveling?

Do you enjoy all the added airport security, and hence huge waste of money, ensuring the airways are safe?

Do you enjoy seeing your tax dollars go to homeland type defense vice normal peacetime functions?

Note, i tried to make these generic to apply to most free countries. My point is, that the terrorists are changing our way of life. That bothers me a lot. And what bothers me even more is how some folks can try to rationalize why they are the way they are. Sorry. But I say remove them from the Earth.

I know this may sound harsh. But darn it. I remember living a much more open and free life before these individuals ruined it for everyone else.

Why should billions be affected by thousands? It isn't right.

Get rid of them I say. The only good terrorist is a dead one!

Let Israel remove the Hezbollah -- it will be a great start!
Would you apply the same reasoning to criminals? Or the poor/homeless?

Who gets to decide who is what anyway? Doesn't the key to solving/mitigating chronic problems lie in understanding their context?

[blackfox]

Specious argument. A car is not designed to explode on reaching its destination.
We had the Pinto...

[sushi]

Would you apply the same reasoning to criminals? Or the poor/homeless?
No. A terrorist and criminal are different.

And if you have to ask about the poor/homeless, you didn't read in detail my points.

Who gets to decide who is what anyway? Doesn't the key to solving/mitigating chronic problems lie in understanding their context?
Don't need to understand their context.

Do we understand cancer? We can fight cancer by removing it completely from the body. If we miss a little bit it may come back so we must ensure that we get it all.

My way of life is being affected by terrorists. I am tired of putting up with it. It is time they paid the piper.

Terrorist be gone!

[dogbone]

Specious argument. A car is not designed to explode on reaching its destination.

It was equally specious as you suggesting that because a missile if fired deliberately that therefore their can be no accidents. I may point out to you that the US air force shot down a British Harrier jet during the early days of the Iraq conflict.

[sushi]

It was equally specious as you suggesting that because a missile if fired deliberately that therefore their can be no accidents. I may point out to you that the US air force shot down a British Harrier jet during the early days of the Iraq conflict.
And the US killed some of their own as well due to mistaken identity.

BTW, personally knew the commander involved in that fiasco.

[Peterkro]

We had the Pinto...

and the Corvair.

[skunk]

But darn it. I remember living a much more open and free life before these individuals ruined it for everyone else.

Why should billions be affected by thousands? It isn't right.Which "billions" are you referring to? The "peaceful" little enclaves of the EU, the USA, Canada, Japan and Australasia contain no more than one billion people between them. Their "peaceful" life is bought at the cost of the exclusion of three-quarters of the world population. Many millions would take up arms if they saw no improvement to be gained by other means.

[blackfox]

Do we understand cancer? We can fight cancer by removing it completely from the body. If we miss a little bit it may come back so we must ensure that we get it all.

well, someone call all the cancer researchers - they're wasting their time!

People spend time researching the causes of Cancer (to continue with your example), so that they may one day prevent it from appearing at all, or at least be able to identify where it is likely to be to manage quickly and painlessly.

While we currently fight cancer by removing it from the body, our methods are crude, invasive and sometimes toxic to the body as a whole. Is this really the perfect method?

Does it stop Cancer from attacking Mr. Jones down the street?

[Peterkro]

By this sort of reasoning there is no such thing then as a traffic accident because everyone gets into their cars on purpose.

You'll find a lot of people involved with vehicle crashes not using the word accident because mainly they aren't same goes for military "accidents".


There is some debate about the appropriateness of the word accident in the context of car accidents, which generally result from carelessness or sometimes dangerous driving rather than from circumstances beyond the control of any of those involved. Some road traffic safety authorities have started using alternative expressions such as car crashes, car wrecks, collisions or incidents to emphasise that most collisions are entirely avoidable; for example, the official UK statistics formerly known as Road Accidents Great Britain (RAGB) are now known as Road Casualties Great Britain. Further, in some areas (e.g. Victoria, Australia), authorities are considering counting single-vehicle single-occupant road traffic crash fatalities in that state's suicide statistics as well as in road toll statistics.
It is thought that as many as nine out of ten injury collisions are the result of driver negligence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_accident

[sushi]

well, someone call all the cancer researchers - they're wasting their time!

People spend time researching the causes of Cancer (to continue with your example), so that they may one day prevent it from appearing at all, or at least be able to identify where it is likely to be to manage quickly and painlessly.

While we currently fight cancer by removing it from the body, our methods are crude, invasive and sometimes toxic to the body as a whole. Is this really the perfect method?

Does it stop Cancer from attacking Mr. Jones down the street?
Good points.

But right now, we must use the invasive manner against terrorists.

Then someday we can hopefully find the cure. ;)

[blackfox]

So smiting is ok, if it's purpose is righteous?

Depending on the POV, that could apply to both sides.

[sushi]

Which "billions" are you referring to?
I think that the world population is around 6.6 billion plus.

Most live in relative freedom.

The point is, that terrorists make up a very small number compared to the billions that inhabit the Earth.

I say remove them. Israel is off to a great start with the Hezbollah.

[emw]

The point is, that terrorists make up a very small number compared to the billions that inhabit the Earth.
You're assuming that each individual terrorist represents only him/herself, rather than a wider audience.

As others have said, who is or is not a terrorist is predicated largely on your view of who is right and who is wrong.

[Peterkro]

I think that the world population is around 6.6 billion plus.

Most live in relative freedom.

The point is, that terrorists make up a very small number compared to the billions that inhabit the Earth.

I say remove them. Israel is off to a great start with the Hezbollah.

"Most live in relative freedom" I don't think so,in the numbers not are millions in both the US and Europe.Of course by 19th century slave standards they have relative freedom.

[sushi]

You're assuming that each individual terrorist represents only him/herself, rather than a wider audience.

As others have said, who is or is not a terrorist is predicated largely on your view of who is right and who is wrong.
I think that we can dispense with a few very quickly.

Does your organization attack civilian targets as a primary target via suicide bombings?

Yes.

Remove them.

Guys, this is not rocket science. What it takes is a strong intestinal fortitude to do what is right.

One reason that the Hezbollah has gained so much strength is that through diplomacy they have been left alone to multiply and expand for the past 6-10 years.

And the only reason that they help the local populace is to get themselves a local safe haven. They do not care about the Lebanese people. They are only using them.

Edit: added the word safe before haven.

[Peterkro]

I think that we can dispense with a few very quickly.

Does your organization attack civilian targets as a primary target.

Yes.

Remove them.



Well that's the US and Israeli military bolloxed then.

[sushi]

Well that's the US and Israeli military bolloxed then.
Yep. The Hezbollah have been allowed to survive.

[IJ Reilly]

Question: How many threads do we need on one topic?

A new one seems to pop up every day, making it very difficult to follow the discussion.

[sushi]

Question: How many threads do we need on one topic?

A new one seems to pop up every day, making it very difficult to follow the discussion.
True.

Hard to keep up with them all.

[Peterkro]

Also quite a few have the same author.:rolleyes:

[Sayhey]

I think that we can dispense with a few very quickly.

Does your organization attack civilian targets as a primary target via suicide bombings?

Yes.

Remove them.

Guys, this is not rocket science. What it takes is a strong intestinal fortitude to do what is right.

One reason that the Hezbollah has gained so much strength is that through diplomacy they have been left alone to multiply and expand for the past 6-10 years.

And the only reason that they help the local populace is to get themselves a local safe haven. They do not care about the Lebanese people. They are only using them.

Edit: added the word safe before haven.
Hezbollah is part of Lebanon. They are not "foreign fighters" or puppets of Iran, but rather a local Shi'a fundamentalist religious party, inspired by the Iranian revolution, that grew in support as they resisted Israeli occupation of Lebanon and the expelling of foreign troops. This operation may succeed in destroying Hezbollah's military capability to launch missiles into Israel, but it won't destroy Hezbollah. Far from it. This is exactly what Hezbollah wants. They want to again portray themselves as the only force within Lebanese society that will stand up and fight the Israelis. Hezbollah gets stronger politically out of this. I wish that was not the case, but it is.

[blackfox]

I think that we can dispense with a few very quickly.

Does your organization attack civilian targets as a primary target via suicide bombings?

Yes.

Remove them.

Guys, this is not rocket science. What it takes is a strong intestinal fortitude to do what is right.

One reason that the Hezbollah has gained so much strength is that through diplomacy they have been left alone to multiply and expand for the past 6-10 years.

And the only reason that they help the local populace is to get themselves a local haven. They do not care about the Lebanese people. They are only using them.

Let's review the merits of your plan:

Plus: Simple, uncomplicated plan-of-action

Minus: Totally impossible unless you want to turn the world into either a parking lot or a wasteland (and bankrupt a few of the "good" nations).


Let's think about something for a minute - are there a lot of European terrorists? No? There used to be a bunch, what happened - did we kill them all?

No (though some, I'm sure). There are relatively few terrorists in Europe, because economics has taken all the wind out of their sails. History has shown that economics (notably affluence) is the only thing which quells ethnic/religious tensions in the populace (other than the death of everyone).

Much of the tension between Palestine/Israel is based on economics, not religion (though that is a rhetorical motivator).

The Palestinian Intifada, for example, was based more on rising expectations than hate of Jews - the Palestinian youths were envious of the middle-class Israelis who lived a life they dreamed of, but could only notice on their way to menial jobs in Israel (or on Sateliite TV).

Another reality is that most Arabs are poor, in societies demographically dominated by youth - with dwindlind educational and employment opportunities. Embedded in a society where marriage ages have risen, because money for dowries is short - a rigid interpretation of Islam can justify their sexual frustration. In such societies riven with great economic divides, where sexual pleasure is reserved for those with money - poor youth ay only be able to find gratification within Religion - in which they can be both the exploited and the exploiter.

Terrorism does and does not emanate from a vaccuum.

A true course to eliminating terrorism would be economic/educational assistance to those failing societies which create and allow terrorists to operate - as they have both money to provide for the material needs of the poor, and the ideology to provide for their psychological ones.

So instead of killing all the bad guys, why don't we just make some parts of the world less hopeless?

[zimv20]

Remove them.
if we continue thinking that terrorism can be solved by killing terrorists, then we'll never get it right.

[IJ Reilly]

Hezbollah is part of Lebanon. They are not "foreign fighters" or puppets of Iran, but rather a local Shi'a fundamentalist religious party, inspired by the Iranian revolution, that grew in support as they resisted Israeli occupation of Lebanon and the expelling of foreign troops. This operation may succeed in destroying Hezbollah's military capability to launch missiles into Israel, but it won't destroy Hezbollah. Far from it. This is exactly what Hezbollah wants. They want to again portray themselves as the only force within Lebanese society that will stand up and fight the Israelis. Hezbollah gets stronger politically out of this. I wish that was not the case, but it is.

I don't know if it's accurate to call Hezbollah "puppets" of Iran, but they are certainly supported by Iran, and from all I've read recently, they are much influenced by this support, in terms of what they do and the timing by which they do it. Iran has been the ghost in the works behind many events in the Middle East where Islamic radicalism is concerned, so I don't think it makes sense to discount their impact. Also, the rockets Hezbollah has been firing at Israel are manufactured and supplied by Syria, so their influence also cannot be discounted. And no matter how else they are characterized, Hezbollah is a huge, well-armed private army operating within a theoretically sovereign country. No nation can function this way, and the situation can't persist without plenty of outside influence, in this case, from Iran and Syria.

Does Hezbollah come out this in a stronger position? Difficult to say, but I doubt it. Hezbollah is out of conformance with UN Security Council resolutions. I suspect Israel is going to want, and ultimately is going to get, international assistance in bringing Hezbollah into conformance, which means their withdrawal from the border regions, and an international peace-keeping force of a much greater size and effectiveness than the one that has been in Lebanon for many years. All of this may go towards stabilizing Lebanon over the long run, which if it occurs, will make it a less friendly place in which Hezbollah and their outside supporters can operate.

I suspect Israel knows all of this, which is why they are taking on Hezbollah now.

[mactastic]

You will wind up worse off by trying to kill every terrorist than by diplomacy. Look what happened to Israel after they tried to eliminate the PLO in the '80s. Those actions gave rise to Hezbollah and the suicide bombers that have plagued Israel for the past 2 decades. Rather than solving the problem, overwhleming military actions made it worse for Israel.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If terrorism could be eliminated by military force, Israel would be the safest place on earth. That it is not should be evidence enough that military strength alone cannot defeat an ideological movement.

[adroit]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/07/18/graham-israel.html

Ottawa's strong support of Israeli actions against Hezbollah could damage Canada's credibility as a future peacemaker in the region, opposition leaders said Tuesday.

"It's a Canadian tradition to work in the Middle East for long-term peace by being able to work with all sides of the conflict," said interim Liberal Leader Bill Graham.

Harper has sided firmly with Israel since it began military air strikes against the Lebanese-based Hezbollah militant organization seven days ago.

The operation was triggered by a July 12 Hezbollah raid, in which the militant organization killed eight Israeli soldiers and seized two soldiers.

Hezbollah has countered with persistent rocket attacks in northern Israel.

As many as 230 Lebanese and 24 Israelis have been killed in the exchanges.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and British Prime Minister Tony Blair have called for an international security force to be deployed to the Israel-Lebanon border to help end the violence.

Speaking from France on Tuesday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he believes it is too early to send in such a force.

There are "several things that have to take place to bring about a ceasefire and for the ability to keep peace. And we are not very close to that possibility at the moment," said Harper.

NDP Leader Jack Layton, who held a news conference in Ottawa on Tuesday, dismissed Harper's position, saying Canada should call for an immediate ceasefire and quickly commit to a role in a future peacekeeping force.

"Mr. Harper needs to make clear that Canada is calling on all sides to implement a ceasefire now," said Layton.

Harper has called Israel's response "measured," saying the Jewish state had a right to defend itself. He called on Hezbollah and the Palestinian militant group Hamas to release Israeli prisoners and recognize Israel's right to exist.

Now I'm mad :mad:

[Dont Hurt Me]

You will wind up worse off by trying to kill every terrorist than by diplomacy. Look what happened to Israel after they tried to eliminate the PLO in the '80s. Those actions gave rise to Hezbollah and the suicide bombers that have plagued Israel for the past 2 decades. Rather than solving the problem, overwhleming military actions made it worse for Israel.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If terrorism could be eliminated by military force, Israel would be the safest place on earth. That it is not should be evidence enough that military strength alone cannot defeat an ideological movement.
Pretty hard to find all those guys living in Syria & Iran,Iraq and all the Mideast, Though you cant kill everyone you can remove them from nearby land to the point where they have to fire their missiles from another country and then if they continue then its clear they are proxy for the country they operating out of. Chasing Hezbolla back into Syria & Iran is a good idea if you ask me.

[IJ Reilly]

You will wind up worse off by trying to kill every terrorist than by diplomacy. Look what happened to Israel after they tried to eliminate the PLO in the '80s. Those actions gave rise to Hezbollah and the suicide bombers that have plagued Israel for the past 2 decades. Rather than solving the problem, overwhleming military actions made it worse for Israel.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If terrorism could be eliminated by military force, Israel would be the safest place on earth. That it is not should be evidence enough that military strength alone cannot defeat an ideological movement.

I don't think Israel's objective now or before is trying to kill every terrorist. They are more realistic than you seem to give them credit. I believe they are attempting to pull in the international community, whether it be NATO or the UN, to enforce the buffer zone in southern Lebanon. The situation as it exists now would be intolerable for any nation. Israel is no exception, though some seem to think it ought to be.

As far as the PLO is concerned, it's difficult to talk about them without talking about their leadership. Arafat and his regime was corrupt and either stole or squandered tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid. He also passed up a golden opportunity to move the peace process in positive direction in the years before he died. The leadership in the Palestinian community has been no friend of the Palestinian people, and neither are the radical Islamic elements, who are manipulating events for their own purposes.

Diplomacy has been ongoing in this region for decades. Progress has been slow at best, with many huge setbacks. This is just another. When the two sides are once again exhausted from pummeling each other, they'll talk, but not before. It's the sad history of the place.

[mactastic]

Pretty hard to find all those guys living in Syria & Iran,Iraq and all the Mideast, Though you cant kill everyone you can remove them from nearby land to the point where they have to fire their missiles from another country and then if they continue then its clear they are proxy for the country they operating out of. Chasing Hezbolla back into Syria & Iran is a good idea if you ask me.
But what good does that do you if you wind up forcing your opponent to come up with some other nasty tactic that then gets used against you? I'm not saying it's Israel's fault they're being hit with suicide bombers, but such are the risks of war. Israel gambled that overwhelming force could be used to crush resistance to them, and they were wrong. Their choice to gamble on those odds resulted in the suicide bomber being deployed as a weapon against them.

Chasing Hezbollah into Syria and Iran will not solve the problem. It may put it off for a while, but it will come back with greater force eventually.

[elfin buddy]

Harper has called Israel's response "measured," saying the Jewish state had a right to defend itself. He called on Hezbollah and the Palestinian militant group Hamas to release Israeli prisoners and recognize Israel's right to exist.

Yup, now there's a progressive stance :rolleyes: Who the Hell voted for this guy, anyway?

So yeah, here's what the Canadian government is doing so far:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/19/evacuation-ships.html

I think I also read something about Stephen Harper personally re-directing his military plane from France to Lebanon to pick up more people. Apparently, he removed pretty much all the crew and left most of his staff in France to make room for more people. Seems like more of a political stunt than anything else, but at least it's another drop in the bucket.

[codo]

Latest stats: 330 dead overall. 300 of those Lebanese, 30 Israeli. 20 of the total figure are military personal. Over 1000 wounded. There are now over half a million refugees in Lebanon after having their living accommodation and infrastructure flattened.

Source: ITN.

[IJ Reilly]

Chasing Hezbollah into Syria and Iran will not solve the problem. It may put it off for a while, but it will come back with greater force eventually.

This is not what Israel is after. See my previous post.

[mactastic]

This is not what Israel is after. See my previous post.
See DHM's post for why I am talking about the issue in the first place.

[IJ Reilly]

See DHM's post for why I am talking about the issue in the first place.

Ah, right. Sorry. ;)

[solvs]

if we continue thinking that terrorism can be solved by killing terrorists, then we'll never get it right.
Which is why we never get it right. And probably never will. Could've sworn there was this Jewish guy a couple thousand years ago we were supposed to listen to who was going to end all this peacefully, but it seems like those who quote him most are the ones always doing exactly the opposite. We wonder why we never get anywhere.

Same thing happened to that Muslim dude, what's his name, who ironically followed the teachings of that Jewish guy.

[stubeeef]

if we continue thinking that terrorism can be solved by killing terrorists, then we'll never get it right.

In the HOA we are trying to correct the problem before it is a problem. BUT when there is no way Israel is going to cease to exist for the sake of Hamas/Hezb, how do you propose dealing with the terrorists.

[dogbone]

from The Times...

BRITAIN fears that Israel’s assault on Hezbollah is failing to cripple the guerrilla group and that continued bombardment will bring huge civilian casualties in Lebanon for little military gain.

That's a bit rich coming from a government that has been part of a war in Iraq that has killed 200,000, and has left a near civil war where about 300 civillians a week are being massacred for no *military* gain at all.

[zimv20]

dogbone--- when quoting sources, please provide links to the story. that way we can read the whole thing if we'd like w/o having to do a bunch of searching. thanks.

[dogbone]

OK, I'll do that in future, I didn't think the quote itself was very contentious, which is why I didn't link it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2277822,00.html

More from the article

A senior British official said: “Our concern is that Israeli military action is not having the desired effect.

Anyone spot some irony? As if civil war in Iraq was "the desired affect"

[Sayhey]

I don't know if it's accurate to call Hezbollah "puppets" of Iran, but they are certainly supported by Iran, and from all I've read recently, they are much influenced by this support, in terms of what they do and the timing by which they do it. Iran has been the ghost in the works behind many events in the Middle East where Islamic radicalism is concerned, so I don't think it makes sense to discount their impact. Also, the rockets Hezbollah has been firing at Israel are manufactured and supplied by Syria, so their influence also cannot be discounted. And no matter how else they are characterized, Hezbollah is a huge, well-armed private army operating within a theoretically sovereign country. No nation can function this way, and the situation can't persist without plenty of outside influence, in this case, from Iran and Syria.

Does Hezbollah come out this in a stronger position? Difficult to say, but I doubt it. Hezbollah is out of conformance with UN Security Council resolutions. I suspect Israel is going to want, and ultimately is going to get, international assistance in bringing Hezbollah into conformance, which means their withdrawal from the border regions, and an international peace-keeping force of a much greater size and effectiveness than the one that has been in Lebanon for many years. All of this may go towards stabilizing Lebanon over the long run, which if it occurs, will make it a less friendly place in which Hezbollah and their outside supporters can operate.

I suspect Israel knows all of this, which is why they are taking on Hezbollah now.

IJ, much of this I don't disagree with. My point about Hezbollah was to argue that viewing them as mere puppets (as in Bush's reference to Syria and in many statements by Israeli officials) is a mistake. It is a mistake that allows for an expansion of the conflict; which is why I think it is stated so often. That doesn't mean that there aren't very strong ties between Hezbollah and Iran (they share a common religious and world view among other things) and of connivence between Hezbollah and Syria (mutual self-interest in undermining Israeli influence in Lebanon.) These ties should not be used to minimized the roots of Hezbollah among the Shi'a population of Lebanon. They are roots that I abhor because of the hold religious fundamentalism has over peoples lives and a political view of the world that is reactionary and medieval in its outlook, but it does no good to underestimate or gloss over the reality of the strength of this organization, politically, among a substantial portion of the Lebanese people.

I agree that the probable outcome is a weakening of Hezbollah military, at least in the short term, but the point I was trying to make was how this helps them politically. As long as Hezbollah, and Hamas for that matter, can show themselves as the principle opponents to Israel, they will be able to grow their support amongst the population. Only when reasoned voices can be heard and be effective in resolving the grievances of the people against Israel, real or imagined, will alternatives grow. This is the basic problem the region faces today. Only extreme voices on both sides of the conflict, who support escalation of tensions for their own political advancement, are now being heard. It is sad that in the past the US has been able to play a role in pushing an alternative path and now we have abandoned that role altogether in place of one of cheerleading the violence of one side.

[KingYaba]

One thing to point out, Israel has suffered through countless suicide bombings on busses, resturants, public places ect... Why don't you bitch about Hamas killing civilians as many do about Israel.

[skunk]

One thing to point out, Israel has suffered through countless suicide bombings on busses, resturants, public places ect... Why don't you bitch about Hamas killing civilians as many do about Israel.Hamas should not be killing anybody. Nor should the Israelis. There. Satisfied?

[solvs]

Why don't you bitch about Hamas killing civilians as many do about Israel.
We have. We've made that point several times that no one is happy with what they're doing, some even saying they are bringing it on themselves. I know I keep saying both sides over and over again.

I don't think I've seen anyone actually defending Hamas/Hezbollah.

[Sayhey]

One thing to point out, Israel has suffered through countless suicide bombings on busses, resturants, public places ect... Why don't you bitch about Hamas killing civilians as many do about Israel.

I'm not sure who the "you" you refer to is, but seeing that your post immediately follows mine I'm going to assume you mean me. I have always condemned the suicide bombings against innocent Israelis. I think I have made it very clear how much I hate the politics of Hamas and Hezbollah. Does that mean I have to accept it when hundreds of innocent Lebanese are killed by Israeli actions? I don't think so. I will repeat what I said earlier to another poster. Just what would you be saying today if those hundreds of dead were Israeli citizens? Would you be urging a two week time span for the killing to continue without interference? Is an Israeli life worth more than a Lebanese or Palestinian one? I don't think so, and I think it is important at times like these for people to stand up and say so.