What makes a MBP better than the E1505?

[kevin.rivers]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration* :eek:

[miniConvert]

Spec isn't everything. You can bet your bottom dollar he'd be jealous of someone with a MBP if he was sitting beside them with his fugly Dell. I know I would be!

For me a Mac symbolises that you want a computer that has style, elegance, reliability and, of course, OS X. You can't get that on a Dell ;) As you say, a Dell is just a cheap generic computer. Where's the love?

[Sun Baked]

Well its hard to fight the cheapskates of the world ...

But in reality, you can probably get a better deal than the Dell at WalMart.

[codo]

Try using the reasons here (http://www.apple.com/getamac/).

I found this on the education part of the UK site. Click (http://www.apple.com/uk/education/hed/students/persuasion.html). Apple uploaded a page to help students persuade their parents to buy a Mac for their studies. Don't you love ‘em? (And it worked on mine when I started Uni! - Thanks Mum & Dad!).

[truz]

a dell is like buying a low class toyota over a high class lexus/mac. low class gets bad performance, low class parts, high class gets top performance, top class parts! :)

they both run, one runs better and longer then the other and does it in style :D

[xPismo]

a dell is like buying a low class toyota over a high class lexus/mac. low class gets bad performance, low class parts, high class gets top performance, top class parts! :)

they both run, one runs better and longer then the other and does it in style :D

Trust me, that wont win an arugument about how good a computer is.

[codo]

a dell is like buying a low class toyota over a high class lexus/mac. low class gets bad performance, low class parts, high class gets top performance, top class parts! :)

they both run, one runs better and longer then the other and does it in style :D

My Yaris is very funky, thank you :P

[Dr. Bombay]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration* :eek:

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's tough to get people to understand the advantages of the Mac OS and that while it may be a little more expensive up front, it may make them more productive in the long run. A lot of people don't care about style and want just to pay as little money for a computer to meet their requirements. In this case, it is easy enough for cheaper Windows based machines to get the job done

[bbrosemer]

Who wants to buy from a company that refers to a chip in a laptop to a Video Card not a processor.

[QCassidy352]

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I'm calling BS on the initial premise here. When the macbook (not pro) came out, there was a page 2 story here comparing the macbook to 4 laptops made by other PC manufactuers. The macbook had the best or close to best specs/dollar of any of them.

But now someone says that for the cost of a macbook, not pro, there's a laptop with the specs of the pro? I'd like to see this.

[bbrosemer]

I'm calling BS on the initial premise here. When the macbook (not pro) came out, there was a page 2 story here comparing the macbook to 4 laptops made by other PC manufactuers. The macbook had the best or close to best specs/dollar of any of them.

But now someone says that for the cost of a macbook, not pro, there's a laptop with the specs of the pro? I'd like to see this.
It is cloes in config/ just go to dell and try it yourself you get an 80gb HD with the Dell for $1,085 however it is still windows.

[Dr. Bombay]

a dell is like buying a low class toyota over a high class lexus/mac. low class gets bad performance, low class parts, high class gets top performance, top class parts! :)

they both run, one runs better and longer then the other and does it in style :D

While I will not disagree with you on style(although given the way car styling is heading these days most new cars lack a certain timeless appeal), I disagree with you on the "longer". Neither the Lexus (nor the Mac) outlast the Toyota (or the Dell) just because they are "high" class. In this case, the Mac and the Dell have the same specs, so they would be compareable in terms of performance and parts. They only differ in their OS(luxury) and design(style). Choose your poison, but both will do the job well!

[Dane D.]

But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

You can't convince thick headed individuals, the best you can do is present the facts and let them speak for themshelves. I may be wrong, but PC users all respond with the same thing - "too expensive". Must be a disease they have. Well, when their PC goes down and I am still working, that is when you chime in with "Should of bought a Mac". I don't care what PC users think, they are the ones who waste their money on the that garbage. Face it there will always be Chevy buyers, but if you want quality then spend a little more and get a Lexus. My analogy for PC vs. Mac.;)

[codo]

Macophobes. They have no reason for disliking it, they just do.

I had more catty Macophobe comments at Uni than I did Homophobe - No lie. I laugh at them as I work on both PCs and Macs and they are both funky dory.

[milozauckerman]

a dell is like buying a low class toyota over a high class lexus/mac. low class gets bad performance, low class parts, high class gets top performance, top class parts!
Yes, the Toyota Camry is known for falling apart after 30,000 miles.

This argument gets just a little stupider every time I see it.

[Mord]

configured as close as can be and it cane to 1420, but it still misses a bunch of stuff such as the isight, OS X, oh and it's 2" thick and butt ugly, for 600 bucks more you can have the downright sexiest nicest laptop ever.


your choice.

[milozauckerman]

That one-inch is a real dealbreaker, isn't it?

[QCassidy352]

It is cloes in config/ just go to dell and try it yourself you get an 80gb HD with the Dell for $1,085 however it is still windows.

It came out to $1201 for me, but yeah, ok, close enough.

Yep, that's a pretty good deal, no doubt about it. But OS X and superior design are more than worth the difference IMO. You always pay for superior design - why should computers be any different?

edit: what I think is interesting is that the E line is not only a much better deal than apple's MBP, but also than other PC makers' laptops, and Dell's own XPS line. For example, I configured the XPS M1710 as closely as I could to the MBP 17", and the Dell came out to ~$3000 (you can quibble about exactly what should be included, but it's awfully close). The E line just seems to be a great deal compared to, well, everything else.

[Sesshi]

I can only say "try both". I have an Inspiron 9400 dual-core, which is very much like the MBP 17" in terms of overall spec.

There is a total different feeling of ownership between both machines. As I put before, the Dell with Windows feels like work even when I'm playing. the Apple with OSX feels like play even when I'm working. Aside from the obvious cosmetic differences, there's no better way I can put in to a nutshell the difference between the two machines. It's not about the difference in size, the weight, whether the Dell has a better graphics card for the money (I believe it has), etc. It's about the product as a whole - and as a result I use the MBP every day. The Dell collects dust, and will be passed to someone who's temping for me shortly.

[Artful Dodger]

configured as close as can be and it cane to 1420, but it still misses a bunch of stuff such as the isight, OS X, oh and it's 2" thick and butt ugly, for 600 bucks more you can have the downright sexiest nicest laptop ever.


your choice.

Just to add to a great post, can his run two OS? How about all the software such as iLife '06 or even a program/method to burn dvds without extra cost? The added FW over usb 2.0. Last the value, Macs hold better resale value and better value if stolen (at least that's what my Ins. Co. told me). Yeah there are some nice laptops out there, then you need to use them, that's where the trouble starts ;)

[dpaanlka]

PC people can't seem to understand one thing; it costs a lot of money to pack their two inch plastic computer into our one inch aluminum case.

I brought my 17" PowerBook G4 into a Best Buy once cuz my friend worked there and we wanted to make fun of the PCs. My entire laptop was the same thickness as the LCD portion of a 17" Vaio.

[Josias]

Never argue with (PC) idiots! They will lower you to their level of intelligence, where they have more experience. Just tell him in a slightly sarcastic voice: "Right, the Dell is better, I'm gonna go get myself a Smell right away". Don't mind what computers your classmates have. After just seeing my Mac, two people in my grade switched. It'll come. They'll learn, and this guy's Dell will be butt raped anytime by a MBP, and even an MB in all aspects.

But, if you really wanna argue with the idiot, aniahlate him by comparing the Smell to the MB, You know what I mean... iLife, OS X, FrontRow, iSight, 2.0 GHz Core Duo...:D If he reacks down the GMA/950, tell him about the benchmarks showing, that the MB in gaming and graphics work had nearly as good performance as MBP, due to the smokin' fast processor.:p

[JBot]

i love that 75% of the comebacks to this illogical kids comment about macs, refers to the look of the case.

I want a big gang fight to happen, instead of west and east, the mac vs windows crew.

The mac gang will show up with body armour but no weapons. (symbolizing unix strength os, but no way to fix/defend itself if something happens.)

The windows crew will show up with layers among layers of body armor, but less strength than the macs body armor, swords, about 20% of them will be sick.

Fight till the death, jobs vs gates.
round 1!

[tbrinkma]

It's really a size/weight issue that accounts for the price difference. (That and Dell's periodic sell-at-cost-to-bring-in-new-business 'sales'.)

The other issue is that Dell buys the least expensive components they can get, regardless of whether it is the same part as they used in yesterday's build of the 'same' model computer. It's precisely that attitude in the WinPC world that makes reliability such a moving target. The build variations are a support nightmare. Ok, you've got a Model X1234 laptop. That means you've got either a model A, B, or Q mainboard, and one of these 4 LCD part numbers, and (you get the idea).

An example I ran into left me unable to replace a non-critical dead component on my old Toshiba laptop. The 'battery board', which also has the subwoofer connection failed about 3 years out of warranty. This means that it will not charge or runn off a battery at all any more, but it will still run plugged in as long as a battery is present. I ordered the spare part through Toshiba's part supplier, and got it in 3 days. Unfortunately, I discovered that the part, and the motherboard come in at least 2 varieties. Each comes with the connector for that part in a male and female version. The only part still available (anywhere) was the male version, as was my laptop's motherboard.

From what I've seen over the years with Apple systems, you don't get that sort of stupid design drift. Yes, components with be revised to fix issues, but they remain compatible for the life of the model, and Apple makes it pretty easy for you to figure out which model you've got.

[milozauckerman]

The quality argument would be better if the MBP and MB hadn't been rife with product failures and lesser problems.

PC people can't seem to understand one thing; it costs a lot of money to pack their two inch plastic computer into our one inch aluminum case.
So if Apple would just make it a two-inch aluminum case I could save a few hundred bucks AND have a computer less likely to overheat?

Why do the design arguments here always come from people who don't grasp that function and price are 50% of 'design'? It ain't just form, people. The prettiest little laptop on Earth is just sculpture if it don't work right.

[tbrinkma]

i love that 75% of the comebacks to this illogical kids comment about macs, refers to the look of the case.

I want a big gang fight to happen, instead of west and east, the mac vs windows crew.

The mac gang will show up with body armour but no weapons. (symbolizing unix strength os, but no way to fix/defend itself if something happens.)

The windows crew will show up with layers among layers of body armor, but less strength than the macs body armor, swords, about 20% of them will be sick.

Fight till the death, jobs vs gates.
round 1!

The fight begins, and the windows crew, each carrying 50 lb sledge hammers, multi-bladed axes, and similar (decidedly deadly, but highly unwieldly), starts stripping off their bulky hindering armor so they can 'play'. Some of them get tangled in their various straps and have to be cut out of their remaining armor before they can join the fight.

The Mac gang members reach into their pockets, and pull out one of a variety small, simple weapons (mace canisters, snap batons, brass knuckles, etc.), each very well designed for its particular use, and proceed to quickly incapacitate the newly unarmored windows crew.

The Windows crew limps home, battered, crowing about how they would have won if they'd been using the *next* version of their equipment which will be so much better. The Mac gang is befuddled the next day when they read in the news that the Windows crew won the day.

[JeffHendr]

I'm happily typing away on a 17" Powerbook G4, and ever since I purchased my 15" Ti Powerbook several years ago, I've been glad to have left the Windows world behind. The stability and ingenuity of OS X allows me to do the things that I need to do quickly and easily, while having fun doing it.

This being said, a friend of mine called me up yesterday to present an interesting question to me. He's been given the opportunity to purchase any latop that he desires, at any price. Knowing that I'm a Mac guy these days, he called me up to get a list of advantages of the MacBook Pro over an Alienware gaming laptop that he's considering. I listed the usual reasons for buying a Mac over a PC, but found myself a bit more handicapped in my list of advantages than I had been back when it was PowerPC versus Intel. It used to be that Macs always had superior hardware configurations that justified the higher price tag. If you ever priced a comparably priced Wintel machine, you'd generally find that the Mac was just a small bit cheaper. When you looked at the fact that the Powerbook was half as thick, ran OS X, and just looks cool, it was a no-brainer. ...The computer that my friend presented me with on the phone yesterday, however, was comparable in every way, down to the integrated camera, $1000 cheaper and had a superior video card. I still went ahead and told him why I prefer the Mac over the PC, but when he's a serious gamer and the new MacBook Pros have some fairly common and serious build quality issues (even my Al Powerbook has a few build quality issues not present in the Ti Powerbooks--screen won't stay shut, power adapter metled), I'm not sure that the Mac is really the best choice for him. I suggested to him that if there's any way to delay the purchase of his laptop, to wait for the next revision to come down the road. Otherwise, maybe the PC is really the better choice at the moment. $1000 is a lot to pay for a thinner profile and a fun OS.

Rather than immediately seeking out a way to convince your friend that he needs to buy a Mac, I'd be a bit more objective about it and ask yourself whether or not he's right. If you weigh the facts, and the Mac is still superior, you'll already have a list of the reasons why the Mac is the better choice.

[JBot]

The fight begins, and the windows crew, each carrying 50 lb sledge hammers, multi-bladed axes, and similar (decidedly deadly, but highly unwieldly), starts stripping off their bulky hindering armor so they can 'play'. Some of them get tangled in their various straps and have to be cut out of their remaining armor before they can join the fight.

The Mac gang members reach into their pockets, and pull out one of a variety small, simple weapons (mace canisters, snap batons, brass knuckles, etc.), each very well designed for its particular use, and proceed to quickly incapacitate the newly unarmored windows crew.

The Windows crew limps home, battered, crowing about how they would have won if they'd been using the *next* version of their equipment which will be so much better. The Mac gang is befuddled the next day when they read in the news that the Windows crew won the day.

Round 2!
macs show up with there regular armour, than the windows crews regular body armour ontop of that. They reach in the back pocket, see there regular plain jane batons and such, as well as the windows sledgehammers. The sun is out, the weather is reaching 40+ celsius, the mac crew starts sweating too much, all start fainting prior to combustion.
Windows crew shows up a few minutes later, realize its so hot, simply adds some water coolants and fans to there body armor. Sitting comfortably, they sit by the fainted mac gang, who are now on fire, and cook themselves eggs.

[bbrosemer]

I'm happily typing away on a 17" Powerbook G4, and ever since I purchased my 15" Ti Powerbook several years ago, I've been glad to have left the Windows world behind. The stability and ingenuity of OS X allows me to do the things that I need to do quickly and easily, while having fun doing it.

This being said, a friend of mine called me up yesterday to present an interesting question to me. He's been given the opportunity to purchase any latop that he desires, at any price. Knowing that I'm a Mac guy these days, he called me up to get a list of advantages of the MacBook Pro over an Alienware gaming laptop that he's considering. I listed the usual reasons for buying a Mac over a PC, but found myself a bit more handicapped in my list of advantages than I had been back when it was PowerPC versus Intel. It used to be that Macs always had superior hardware configurations that justified the higher price tag. If you ever priced a comparably priced Wintel machine, you'd generally find that the Mac was just a small bit cheaper. When you looked at the fact that the Powerbook was half as thick, ran OS X, and just looks cool, it was a no-brainer. ...The computer that my friend presented me with on the phone yesterday, however, was comparable in every way, down to the integrated camera, $1000 cheaper and had a superior video card. I still went ahead and told him why I prefer the Mac over the PC, but when he's a serious gamer and the new MacBook Pros have some fairly common and serious build quality issues (even my Al Powerbook has a few build quality issues not present in the Ti Powerbooks--screen won't stay shut, power adapter metled), I'm not sure that the Mac is really the best choice for him. I suggested to him that if there's any way to delay the purchase of his laptop, to wait for the next revision to come down the road. Otherwise, maybe the PC is really the better choice at the moment. $1000 is a lot to pay for a thinner profile and a fun OS.

Rather than immediately seeking out a way to convince your friend that he needs to buy a Mac, I'd be a bit more objective about it and ask yourself whether or not he's right. If you weigh the facts, and the Mac is still superior, you'll already have a list of the reasons why the Mac is the better choice.Can we see this comparison because I just went to alienware and in no way could I make something $1000 cheaper and comparable to the MBP.

[bbrosemer]

Round 2!
macs show up with there regular armour, than the windows crews regular body armour ontop of that. They reach in the back pocket, see there regular plain jane batons and such, as well as the windows sledgehammers. The sun is out, the weather is reaching 40+ celsius, the mac crew starts sweating too much, all start fainting prior to combustion.
Windows crew shows up a few minutes later, realize its so hot, simply adds some water coolants and fans to there body armor. Sitting comfortably, they sit by the fainted mac gang, who are now on fire, and cook themselves eggs.
Then you plug in one of your weapons, a keyboard and a mouse and XP makes it very clear letting you know that these were just plugged in O crap then the mac beats you down.

[JBot]

Then you plug in one of your weapons, a keyboard and a mouse and XP makes it very clear letting you know that these were just plugged in O crap then the mac beats you down.

keyboard? mouse?
im talking gangs here, not computers.
and i dont understand this, first of all because youre on fire, and second, keyboards and mice work very nicely, serial port and usb. wire/wireless.

burn...burn....

[bbrosemer]

Yeah but while you were still waiting for Bios to boot the Mac clearly would have won long before you even woke up "if you were just sleeping"

[JBot]

my powerbook takes years longer to turn on than my desktop, dualbooted.
i mean.
windows guy was sleeping with mac girl. (the mac guys wanted in, but the windows guy doesnt swing that way...) Windows guy got up and attacked the mrs. way before she woke up to notice the flame torch preparing to melt her face.

[poppe]

Fighting with a arrogant people is like fighting a 2 year old. Yes-huh, Nu-uh, Yes-huh, Nu-uh.

My step-dad take for example. He wants a 13 inch computer, for cheap that is powerful, and would work great. He sees a sony viao and starts drooling. i say "why don't you just get a Macbook, then you could have OS X and windows. You'd have a computer that is reliable and built really well, plus the best of both worlds."

He replies "because I dont want a Mac"

I say "Why not its cheaper than the viao and equally built quality if not better. Aren't you going for cheaper anyways?"

He replies "I am going for cheaper, but I dont want a Mac"

I guess the point is. Even when the Macbook has equal features and is cheaper it doesn't matter really.

So maybe it doesn't prove the point to well... but you really can't have logical arguments.

[Sozsei]

Trying to convince PC people that Macs are better is a waste of time. Personally, I'd rather Apple keep it's small market share instead of taking over the world.

[milo]

I'm calling BS on the initial premise here. When the macbook (not pro) came out, there was a page 2 story here comparing the macbook to 4 laptops made by other PC manufactuers. The macbook had the best or close to best specs/dollar of any of them.

But now someone says that for the cost of a macbook, not pro, there's a laptop with the specs of the pro? I'd like to see this.

Doesn't surprise me too much. Problem is, Dell constantly drops their prices and uses faster components as they are available. Which makes perfect sense because the cost of most parts generally drops constantly.

The apples compared reasonably well to Dell when they shipped, problem is over these months, Apple hasn't dropped prices or bumped specs. If apple sticks with their old pricing/config strategy, they will face a repeating cycle of getting further and further behind, than suddenly jumping to close the gap. The price graph would be a downward slope for Dell and downward steps for apple. With this, it really only makes sense to buy apple right after a revision. If it has been a few months since the last update, you're getting a bad deal compared with other available computers.

Same goes for ipods, the shuffle and nano were competitive when they shipped but the competition has passed them by in terms of pricing for the same specs.

[dpaanlka]

Why do the design arguments here always come from people who don't grasp that function and price are 50% of 'design'? It ain't just form, people. The prettiest little laptop on Earth is just sculpture if it don't work right.

Well.. my mom's MBP works perfectly, and my PowerBook G4 works perfectly. The one inch thick case has worked perfectly since its introduction in 2001. One revision of one product having teething problems does not mean one inch cases are bad, so lets all jump back to 2 inches. I'm sure Apple realized its mistakes by now and has addressed them, judging by the performance of later MBPs.

If you are willing to have a two inch thick laptop for less, then by all means go and buy one. The question is why do people continue to pay 2 grand or more for MBPs. Design is a huge factor.

[Topono]

JBot, what model PowerBook do you have?

[JBot]

Well.. my mom's MBP works perfectly, and my PowerBook G4 works perfectly. The one inch thick case has worked perfectly since its introduction in 2001. One revision of one product having teething problems does not mean one inch cases are bad, so lets all jump back to 2 inches. I'm sure Apple realized its mistakes by now and has addressed them, judging by the performance of later MBPs.

The problem he is refering to is the heating problem.
I cant say certainly, but i think with more space in the case they could make more room between components, meaning more cooling air to flow, meaning the machine wont heat up so much.
I have the powerbook g4 and i cant use it unless its on a table, it actually gets too hot. I consider that a huge problem, and think they should have thought about that before introducing the inch thick case.
personal opinion of course.

[JBot]

JBot, what model PowerBook do you have?

15' pb g4 1.67ghz. 80g hd. 512m ram. (soon to be 2g hopefully).

[vv-tim]

Do we really need another thread like this? It's getting old.
You've got the morons on the Apple side and the morons on the non-Apple side. Both of them throw out stupid skewed "data" and ridiculous arguments.

Apple -- you get wonderful design, high price, legal OS X.
Dell -- you get cheap design, great price, Windows, and optionally illegal OS X.

No, Apple is not for people that are looking for a good deal. People that buy Apple have money or are really interested in aesthetics.

MacBooks are priced more reasonbly than MBPs no doubt, but they're still at a premium. A well deserved premium that I would pay, but not for the frugal by any means.

If you're looking for a computer where performance is money to you... buy a Dell.

I didn't buy an Apple because it was a great deal. I bought an Apple because it was attractive, haha.

[JBot]

I didn't buy an Apple because it was a great deal. I bought an Apple because it was attractive, haha.
ditto. and cause ive never used or seen a friend use one.

[jer2eydevil88]

There are a few key points you can bring up in one of these debates.

Macs unlike PC's have a higher initial cost of ownership but you won't be paying for years through the nose on support to remove Spyware/Virus malware.

Mac's hold a higher resale value, after 6 - 7 years a mostly broken Mac notebook is still worth $300. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8823855925)

Many users find themselves more productive using OS X because of how tightly integrated iLife is with the Operating System. This means even less experienced users will be able to do more on a Mac.

Apple support is usually available locally for customers, through either an Apple store or a Campus support facility. Most people with a Dell (or other OEM machine) would end up spending hours on the phone with India before getting technical help.

[supremedesigner]

Don't forget to tell him that DELL laptop got blown up! I repeat: this fugly bulky heavy slow bloated-XP virus-capable got blown up! (don't you remembered that about few weeks ago?) :p There you go :D

[kgarner]

Am I missing something here? When I go to spec out the E1505 I get options for only a 1.83 GHz processor (to the MBP's 2.0 GHz) with 533 MHz RAM (667 MHZ on MBP) even though the FSB is up to 667 MHz. Also the video card options were x1300 (128 MB), x1400 (256 MB), and 7300 (256 MB) (compatred to 128 MB x1600 on MBP). It doesn't really seem to be very comparable in my opinion.

[supremedesigner]

Funny thing is... PC users pay more $$ than mac. Why? They spend more $$ on anti-spy programs and other crappy programs something for them to edit photos, movies, etc. etc. that are useless.

[JBot]

Funny thing is... PC users pay more $$ than mac. Why? They spend more $$ on anti-spy programs and other crappy programs something for them to edit photos, movies, etc. etc. that are useless.
incorrect.
enough freeware to run your computer safely. Ive never purchased a spyware adware virus app ever. The same programs are priced competativly if not exact for mac and pc.
ill get tired of defending the pc sooner or later, but for now it just seems like all you the users dont have enough information about both systems to make a logical decision over which is best for you.

[milo]

People that buy Apple have money or are really interested in aesthetics.

Or want to run OSX and OSX apps (legally).

[PeterKG]

What software is offered on a Dell compared to the Mac? None I thought, except trial software? Illuminated keyboard?

[generik]

Round 2!
macs show up with there regular armour, than the windows crews regular body armour ontop of that. They reach in the back pocket, see there regular plain jane batons and such, as well as the windows sledgehammers. The sun is out, the weather is reaching 40+ celsius, the mac crew starts sweating too much, all start fainting prior to combustion.
Windows crew shows up a few minutes later, realize its so hot, simply adds some water coolants and fans to there body armor. Sitting comfortably, they sit by the fainted mac gang, who are now on fire, and cook themselves eggs.

Why even waste good eggs on an outing like this?

I will cook the fainted faggots and call it a victory barbie :p

[generik]

Fighting with a arrogant people is like fighting a 2 year old. Yes-huh, Nu-uh, Yes-huh, Nu-uh.

My step-dad take for example. He wants a 13 inch computer, for cheap that is powerful, and would work great. He sees a sony viao and starts drooling. i say "why don't you just get a Macbook, then you could have OS X and windows. You'd have a computer that is reliable and built really well, plus the best of both worlds."

He replies "because I dont want a Mac"

I say "Why not its cheaper than the viao and equally built quality if not better. Aren't you going for cheaper anyways?"

He replies "I am going for cheaper, but I dont want a Mac"

I guess the point is. Even when the Macbook has equal features and is cheaper it doesn't matter really.

So maybe it doesn't prove the point to well... but you really can't have logical arguments.

It is not illogical. Hey, even though most lusers out there will struggle with keeping spyware and viruses off their Windows "PeeCees" and can actually do quite with the same degree of "loserity" on MacOS, but Pro users (not the bearded artistic kinds, but the real people who did Computer Sciences and IT) understand the why behind the "Microsoft sucks", and take measures to mitigate it.

End result?

You have a locked down platform that is capable of running under 1% of all software titles in the world vs a platform that can be locked down which is capable of running 90+% of the software in the world.

You can argue till you are blue in the face about how one app on MacOS is > 100 apps on Windows. Oh yeah? Find me an equivalent for...

Alcohol 120%
Exact Audio Copy

Heck, in fact if you want to use certain third party optical writers you even need to install something cheesy like http://www.patchburn.de/download.html

Oh, and by the way Microsoft Media Player actually works in full screen for free. What's so pro about playing a video in full screen? Seriously that notion actually makes me associate "pro" with "moron".

On such an overpriced computer which Apple purportedly spent so much of their margins developing they can't even offer full screen video playback?!

Incidentally these points are the first ones that roll off the top of my head, and I have not even began to scratch the even the tip of the iceberg.

Simply put. Windows = choice. Mac = dictatorship. And I don't like being told what and what not to do, and what and what not to like.

[gnasher729]

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

By checking the numbers. Get the specs for the MacBook Pro (2 GHz, 1 GB, including all the software), go to the Dell page, check out the E-1505 and add everything to make it equivalent, then compare prices. It is not $2499 vs. $1100. You don't pay $2499 for the MacBook Pro, and you don't get the Dell for $1100.

Then try getting the price for a machine that can run both MacOS X and Windows XP. How much do you pay for a Dell that can do that?

[Killyp]

Concerning the exact wording of the OP, I bet that kid's dad owns, say a BMW 5 series. Beautiful car, but you can get a Lotus elise for half the price which will be faster.

Which would you rather own? The Lotus, or the BMW?


That doesn't meen to say, Macs are slower. Just show him the benchmarks of the latest processors out there. The Core Duos are right at the top.

[generik]

Then try getting the price for a machine that can run both MacOS X and Windows XP. How much do you pay for a Dell that can do that?

Two points.

1) Boot camp is currently in beta.

2) Overpaying Apple for the previlege of running Mac OS on a computer equipped with a big brother chip does not really equate to an advantage. On the Apple, the user chooses to get blackmailed. For the Dell user he refuses to yield. There is no technical reason why MacOS can't run on the Dell apart from Apple's business model.

[poppe]

It is not illogical. Hey, even though most lusers out there will struggle with keeping spyware and viruses off their Windows "PeeCees" and can actually do quite with the same degree of "loserity" on MacOS, but Pro users (not the bearded artistic kinds, but the real people who did Computer Sciences and IT) understand the why behind the "Microsoft sucks", and take measures to mitigate it.

End result?

You have a locked down platform that is capable of running under 1% of all software titles in the world vs a platform that can be locked down which is capable of running 90+% of the software in the world.

You can argue till you are blue in the face about how one app on MacOS is > 100 apps on Windows. Oh yeah? Find me an equivalent for...

Alcohol 120%
Exact Audio Copy

Heck, in fact if you want to use certain third party optical writers you even need to install something cheesy like http://www.patchburn.de/download.html

Oh, and by the way Microsoft Media Player actually works in full screen for free. What's so pro about playing a video in full screen? Seriously that notion actually makes me associate "pro" with "moron".

On such an overpriced computer which Apple purportedly spent so much of their margins developing they can't even offer full screen video playback?!

Incidentally these points are the first ones that roll off the top of my head, and I have not even began to scratch the even the tip of the iceberg.

Simply put. Windows = choice. Mac = dictatorship. And I don't like being told what and what not to do, and what and what not to like.

I guess i dont understand why its not not logical? If you could explain.

This is the way I see it: By a Sony Viao (this is in best buy but don't know model) with same specs practically as the macbook, but the macbook is actually cheaper.

Why shouldn't he buy it? He says he is shopping best bang for buck and if Macbook is a little cheaper then whats the logic?

[Topono]

Sheesh... I thought this post was made to help a guy who wanted to tell a kid in his class how Macs are better from his perspective. Now it's an angry ball of hate. HATE I SAY!:mad: There are people who prefer PCs and Windows; there always will be. No need to fight over it. Stick to your personal opinion and don't try and ridicule other people's opinions.
Many people here on MR have Macs and love them. There are a few trolls *cough*inthisthread*cough*, but that was bound to happen the way this topic was going. To the OP, like many have said, you don't need to tell him why Macs are better than, in my opinion, a somewhat crappy Dell. YOU have a Mac, and YOU know why they are better. Anyways, I'm done preaching, so to try and avoid this soon-to-be flame war, I'm going to hide in this brown box here. It's the perfect disguise! *Hides* No one will find me here!:D

[jaxstate]

I agree. Someone said that Dell's can't run OSX. Yeah they can, it's been done already. Thing is, Apple won't allow it to happen. To the OP, why would you even car about what type of computer someone else uses. Saying "my computer is better than yours", isn't gonna changed anyone's mind. If a person wants to use a Dell, then so be it.:cool:
Two points.

1) Boot camp is currently in beta.

2) Overpaying Apple for the previlege of running Mac OS on a computer equipped with a big brother chip does not really equate to an advantage. On the Apple, the user chooses to get blackmailed. For the Dell user he refuses to yield. There is no technical reason why MacOS can't run on the Dell apart from Apple's business model.

[generik]

I guess i dont understand why its not not logical? If you could explain.

This is the way I see it: By a Sony Viao (this is in best buy but don't know model) with same specs practically as the macbook, but the macbook is actually cheaper.

Why shouldn't he buy it? He says he is shopping best bang for buck and if Macbook is a little cheaper then whats the logic?

Most probably this..

Since you so conveniently choose to forget about it, chances are the Vaio actually has a magnesium alloy shell, a previlege that you need to pay an extra one grand for on Apple hardware to not get.

The Vaio just works out of the box, for the Macbook you get a cheap plastic computer which needs an extra $250 for a windows xp license and having to rely on a piece of beta software before you can even get rolling.

Need I go on?

[poppe]

deleted

[generik]

Why are you always I smart A**? Your post was just unclear...

It is unclear because you choose to be delusional.

What's so unclear about the post?

Case in point, a recent switcher I got. When she got the Mac she was to say.. rather underwhelmed by the whole "Apple lifestyle" bull.

1) I can't use the Mini CDs I have on the computer.
2) Why can't the green maximize button do what it is supposed to do?
3) Why do some windows have the red X button deactivated? How do I close it?
4) Do you know of any software for Mac that does <something>. (the answer is no)
5) How do I upgrade the memory? (It was a Mac Mini, so the official word on that is it is not user serviceable)

So what else do I tell her? "haha! basically I was suckered, and now I suckered you to get suckered too just so we can get suckered together!"

The way I see it this is exactly what's going on in forums like these, people buy their shoddy inferior overpriced toys, they start getting post purchase dissonance, they start being verbal about perceived advantages of their choice to justify their decision and convince themselves that they are not fools.

Don't worry, it is human nature. You can still be helped at your local shrink :D

[Killyp]

No the Vaio doesn't have an aluminium alloy or anything fancy. In fact the most fancy thing Sony makes it's Vaios out of is plastic, coated in a thin layer of aluminium, and that's only the top model.


Also, give me the name of a decent Sony laptop. I bet it's no more than a reference number. Would you buy a car called the X8059EH? No.

[poppe]

No the Vaio doesn't have an aluminium alloy or anything fancy. In fact the most fancy thing Sony makes it's Vaios out of is plastic, coated in a thin layer of aluminium, and that's only the top model.


Also, give me the name of a decent Sony laptop. I bet it's no more than a reference number. Would you buy a car called the X8059EH? No.

He said Magnesium tho... Are they made out of plastic or Magnesium. The ones I've seen all were plastic except the bottom I think.

Wow is that what I'm reading... I must be delusional

[benthewraith]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration* :eek:

Hmm, the fact that the Macbook Pro has an operating system that is guaranteed to work with it, doens't get viruses, and crashes a lot less frequently (yes, I've had the Black Screen of Death on a Mac okay....note:not a blue screen). Also, is based off unix, instead of crappy arse windows networking. Much much much better GUI are just a few reasons.

[poppe]

It is unclear because you choose to be delusional.

What's so unclear about the post?

Case in point, a recent switcher I got. When she got the Mac she was to say.. rather underwhelmed by the whole "Apple lifestyle" bull.

1) I can't use the Mini CDs I have on the computer.
2) Why can't the green maximize button do what it is supposed to do?
3) Why do some windows have the red X button deactivated? How do I close it?
4) Do you know of any software for Mac that does <something>. (the answer is no)
5) How do I upgrade the memory? (It was a Mac Mini, so the official word on that is it is not user serviceable)

So what else do I tell her? "haha! basically I was suckered, and now I suckered you to get suckered too just so we can get suckered together!"

The way I see it this is exactly what's going on in forums like these, people buy their shoddy inferior overpriced toys, they start getting post purchase dissonance, they start being verbal about perceived advantages of their choice to justify their decision and convince themselves that they are not fools.

Don't worry, it is human nature. You can still be helped at your local shrink :D

Actually I dont have a Mac. I can't afford one. I would like to get one yes, but I can't afford one yet. So I'm not trying to justify anything. I was trying to justify to him that if you could save yourself (from what I remember the price being) $400 and then take 250 and use that to have boot camp. You'd still have a nice windows machine, with OS X for a cherry on top. Oh yeah and 150 big ones left...

[generik]

No the Vaio doesn't have an aluminium alloy or anything fancy. In fact the most fancy thing Sony makes it's Vaios out of is plastic, coated in a thin layer of aluminium, and that's only the top model.

You sure you want to stake your argument on that 2nd assertion? Anyway, even if that were the case it is not like you can't get a *real metal* shell at that price range anyway. I'd look at LG and Fujitsus.

Made in real places like Korea and Japan too, instead of some communist place where Apple basically have the parts turn into so called computers.


Also, give me the name of a decent Sony laptop. I bet it's no more than a reference number. Would you buy a car called the X8059EH? No.

Seriously, what it is called does not matter in the slightest to me. So by your line of reasoning you will reject a girl (assuming you are not like the majority of the Mac using population) based solely on her facial appearance, or even what her parents choose to call her?

Oh....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Talk about being so superficial and shallow.... I rest my case.

[jaxstate]

You think "Macbook" and "Macbook Pro" are decent names. I wouldn't add the name of the computer to the equation when deciding to buy a computer or not.
No the Vaio doesn't have an aluminium alloy or anything fancy. In fact the most fancy thing Sony makes it's Vaios out of is plastic, coated in a thin layer of aluminium, and that's only the top model.


Also, give me the name of a decent Sony laptop. I bet it's no more than a reference number. Would you buy a car called the X8059EH? No.

[Killyp]

Wow is that what I'm reading... I must be delusional
__________________
No longer Banned!!!!



Tread carefully my friend.

[Killyp]

You think "Macbook" and "Macbook Pro" are decent names. I wouldn't add the name of the computer to the equation when deciding to buy a computer or not.

I would. I don't buy things which have stupid names I can't remember. If a manufacturer can't even invent a decent name for their product, do you really think they're going to have innovated with it?

[poppe]

You sure you want to stake your argument on that 2nd assertion? Anyway, even if that were the case it is not like you can't get a *real metal* shell at that price range anyway. I'd look at LG and Fujitsus.

Made in real places like Korea and Japan too, instead of some communist place where Apple basically have the parts turn into so called computers.



Seriously, what it is called does not matter in the slightest to me. So by your line of reasoning you will reject a girl (assuming you are not like the majority of the Mac using population) based solely on her facial appearance, or even what her parents choose to call her?

Oh....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Talk about being so superficial and shallow.... I rest my case.

You are probbably right it would be better to get those two computers in that price range. But he doensn't want a fujitsu or a LG. What he liked was the Viao. So it was not a question of Mac Vs. All it was Mac vs. Sony Viao.

[jaxstate]

I may own one, but I think Macbook is a stupid name, but I bought it for what it does and not for what it is named.
I would. I don't buy things which have stupid names I can't remember. If a manufacturer can't even invent a decent name for their product, do you really think they're going to have innovated with it?

[Mac Rules]

That one-inch is a real dealbreaker, isn't it?

You try explaining that to the girlfriend!:D :D ;)

Cheers

[generik]

I would. I don't buy things which have stupid names I can't remember. If a manufacturer can't even invent a decent name for their product, do you really think they're going to have innovated with it?

Yeah, I really see your point in this.

"Apple Macbook Pro! Now with 50% more profit margin and our all new patent pending Whine & Moo(tm) technology supercharged with our Premium Testicle Steriler(tm) functionality! Also comes with basically everything that came with our competition 15 years ago (namely real Intel processors) as well as an innovative power cable that won't stay plugged in!"

What other innovative features are there?

The antennas that are built in the lid coated with rubber? Oh how innovative, nevermind that it is to mitigate the stupid design decision to make a portable computer (you know, one which a user actually touches) with aluminium instead of anything else. Oh, perhaps while they are at it they should coat the whole laptop with rubber, seeing as to how it gets scratched and dinged so easily.

[generik]

I may own one, but I think Macbook is a stupid name, but I bought it for what it does and not for what it is named.

MacBook! Mac Bork! Bork Bork! Pok pok key!

Chicken computers?

[Topono]

So by your line of reasoning you will reject a girl (assuming you are not like the majority of the Mac using population) based solely on her facial appearance, or even what her parents choose to call her?


:confused:
I thought we were talking about machines, not actual human beings who are living, have emotion, and have binocular vision.

[generik]

:confused:
I thought we were talking about machines, not actual human beings who are living, have emotion, and have binocular vision.

Doesn't matter, a superficial and shallow person is always a superficial and shallow person.

Besides what's so bad about "X8059EH"? That's right, Sonys don't even have a name that bad, the OP made it purely out of his excrement hole. Likewise what's so good about "Macbook"? Or "iMac"?

Imagine calling tech support.

luser: "Hello, hi, my iMac is not working."
tech: "Can you please tell me which iMac it is?"
luser: "It is a 2Ghz iMac"
tech: "Is it G5 or Intel?"
luser: "I don't know.. I bought it this year.."
tech: "When you bought it was it on clearance?"
luser: "When I bought it, it was very expensive compared to other PCs"
tech: "Ok..."
tech: "Does it have a camera?"
luser: "Is it the little hole above the screen?"
.......

Save all that crap, I rather just have a computer that I can identify instantly and without any ambiguity "X8059EH".

[benthewraith]

Seriously, what it is called does not matter in the slightest to me. So by your line of reasoning you will reject a girl (assuming you are not like the majority of the Mac using population) based solely on her facial appearance, or even what her parents choose to call her?

Two things above in the emboldened statement: what's it supposed to mean? And assuming that what you mean and what I think you mean is on par, why does it matter? What exactly is the relevance of that statement?

[Killyp]

So let's say you're in school (dunno if that's what you do, but I do it) and the conversation with your mates goes a bit like this:

Me: Hey, I got a new laptop!

Mate: Cool! How much did it cost?

Me: £1500! It's awesome!

Mate: Oh oh, which laptop is it?

Me: It's the X77849UIP-H

Mate: Oh, right...



What's this about Apple not innovating?

Let me see now, a screen which adapts to the brightness of your room, a keyboard which lights up when it gets dark, a magnetic power adapter which won't stay in if you stretch the power cord across a road, a built in webcam which doesn't make the screen so thick that the laptop falls over backwards when it's more than 90º from the rest of the machine, an OS which is 6 years ahead of everything else on the market, an ethernet card which can configure itself depending on which cable is used, instant plug and play networking, no need for external soundcards for low-latency audio playback, a decent sized trackpad, dual core processors, remote control for zero-set up or kerfuffle media center capability, the ability to run two screens at completely independant resolutions without restarting, a one inch think case... (the list goes on)

Not to forget the best design yet to be seen on a laptop.

How many other laptops have all, or even a quarter of those things?

[generik]

Two things above in the emboldened statement: what's it supposed to mean? And assuming that what you mean and what I think you mean is on par, why does it matter? What exactly is the relevance of that statement?

Just so we are clear on things, so that I don't offend the wrong crowd unnecessarily (ie: the males who like the pretty white computers, or the females who like the masculine PM/PB stylings).

What's wrong with that? I don't like pretty white computers, and I like masculine looking industrial designs. Some others may, by virtue of genetics, or choice, or exposure to "culture" in their field of work (namely the artistic crowd) and have different ideas.

I certainly didn't want to suggest to a male who is not into women that he'd reject a woman based on reasons that aren't true. He'd reject a woman regardless.

Edit: Male by birth, man by choice.

[generik]

Me: It's the X77849UIP-H

Mate: Oh, right...


Tell us frankly.. you made that model number up right?


What's this about Apple not innovating?

Let me see now, a screen which adapts to the brightness of your room, a keyboard which lights up when it gets dark, a magnetic power adapter which won't stay in if you stretch the power cord across a road, a built in webcam which doesn't make the screen so thick that the laptop falls over backwards when it's more than 90º from the rest of the machine, an OS which is 6 years ahead of everything else on the market, an ethernet card which can configure itself depending on which cable is used, instant plug and play networking, no need for external soundcards for low-latency audio playback, a decent sized trackpad, dual core processors, remote control for zero-set up or kerfuffle media center capability, the ability to run two screens at completely independant resolutions without restarting, a one inch think case... (the list goes on)

Not to forget the best design yet to be seen on a laptop.

How many other laptops have all, or even a quarter of those things?

Sure, all those are nice features, but let's not forget the issues plaguing macs either.

The issues affect everyone, not everyone needs the perks. How often does our sassy college-going Jane Doe get affected by the smart LAN cable detection?

How often does she get sweaty palms each day? Windows XP can change resolution without restarting too, hello? You still stuck on Linux on the PC world?

An OS that is 6 years ahead of anything on the market, sure, it is too advanced to run the bulk of the world's software. Or I can just cut to the chase and simply ask source please. And no, sources with "Mac" and "Apple" in them are not independent sources.

In fact that list while very nice, and impressive sounding, think about how many of the features you named can't be just as easily struck off the list because it also exists in Windows XP? Hmm.. not so many left, and I don't care about what's left.

[kevin.rivers]

By checking the numbers. Get the specs for the MacBook Pro (2 GHz, 1 GB, including all the software), go to the Dell page, check out the E-1505 and add everything to make it equivalent, then compare prices. It is not $2499 vs. $1100. You don't pay $2499 for the MacBook Pro, and you don't get the Dell for $1100.

Then try getting the price for a machine that can run both MacOS X and Windows XP. How much do you pay for a Dell that can do that?

It is configured equivelently, i checked it myself.

[aristobrat]

2) Why can't the green maximize button do what it is supposed to do?
3) Why do some windows have the red X button deactivated? How do I close it?
4) Do you know of any software for Mac that does <something>. (the answer is no)
1) When I'm in Excel for Windows and have three different spread sheets open, it looks like I have three copies of Excel running at once. Why, when I close one spreadsheet does it then go and close the other two spreadsheets and exit all three copies of Excel?

2) How do I do a screen capture in Windows? I'm confused. When I press the clearly labled button on the keyboad, nothing happens.

3) About once a day, my start button/task bar disappears for a few seconds. When it comes back, it doesn't show all of the icons that were by the clock before it reset itself. When I try to start those programs again, it says that they're already running, but I don't see them. Where are they?

4) I just downloaded something called an ISO file from the web. When I click on it, it doesn't do anything. How do I open it? How do I burn it?

5) Can you please tell me how to do <x> in Windows? (the answer is way too frequently "buy a 3rd party program").

Point is, the list for people switching from Windows to OS X and vice-versa can go on for quite awhile.

Isn't the mini the only Apple product that the average person would struggle adding more memory to, and that's because of it's unique design?

[dpaanlka]

2) Why can't the green maximize button do what it is supposed to do?
3) Why do some windows have the red X button deactivated? How do I close it?

You know, people that use Macs all their lives ask similar questions about Windows. Except, a lot more of them.

And that's NOT what the green button is *supposed* to do. There is not, and never has been, a "maximize" button on Macs... it is the fit-to-content button. It's intelligent, efficient window-resizing. Something you apparently can't grasp. It's been that way since years before Windows 95 introduced the maximize button. If you refuse to un-learn years of inefficient screen use by maximizing everything, then go buy a PC.

[baxterbrittle]

Talk about being so superficial and shallow....[/I] I rest my case.

Oh, and by the way Microsoft Media Player actually works in full screen for free. What's so pro about playing a video in full screen? Seriously that notion actually makes me associate "pro" with "moron".

I believe Front Row plays in full screen and that's free - and guess what it uses quicktime to do it! And playing full screen is not ther only feature of quicktime pro. Media Player is a Joke - and it's free for Mac too.

Furthermore expanded choice doesn't make for a better platform especially when most of that choice is rubbish software that's most likely incompatible with one chipset or another in x pc. What software for PC would you recommend instead of logic pro for those who use TDM hardware? Don't know?

Show me something, anything in the PC world that is innovative. Hmmm that's a tough one. Just more of the same old - oh but this ones a bit faster.

Oh and do you call your parents Mum and Dad or Aunt and Uncle? Seems those terms are basically interchangable in your case:rolleyes:

[jaxstate]

This comment is so frickin funny


(assuming you are not like the majority of the Mac using population)

[vv-tim]

Hmm, the fact that the Macbook Pro has an operating system that is guaranteed to work with it, doens't get viruses, and crashes a lot less frequently (yes, I've had the Black Screen of Death on a Mac okay....note:not a blue screen). Also, is based off unix, instead of crappy arse windows networking. Much much much better GUI are just a few reasons.

Actually, neither Windows nor Mac OS have crashed on my laptop... but Mac OS does get that stupid spinning pinwheel crap frequently. If I was choosing a OS based on speed / memory usage -- I'd choose Windows.

I've also never had a virus on my Windows PCs. Why? I'm not retarded. No virus scanners either.

Give it time and viruses will spawn for Mac OS X. The more you brag about there not being any, the more you taunt virus developers.

By the way... Windows 2000 and higher use the same BSD TCP/IP implementation that OS X does ;) Good try with the networking.

[vv-tim]

I would. I don't buy things which have stupid names I can't remember. If a manufacturer can't even invent a decent name for their product, do you really think they're going to have innovated with it?

Obviously you aren't too classy.
Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc... they all use ridiculous model numbers that I can't remember, but apparently they are better :]

Honestly, I like names better, but they mean nothing. Apple named all their laptops Powerbooks/iBooks up to this point, but they varied quite a bit over the years. Model names differentiate the computer. Dell's Exx05 model numbers are quite good.

[vv-tim]

1) When I'm in Excel for Windows and have three different spread sheets open, it looks like I have three copies of Excel running at once. Why, when I close one spreadsheet does it then go and close the other two spreadsheets and exit all three copies of Excel?

Hrmmm, if I'm not wrong, it warns you about that. You clicked the wrong button. You're just dumb.


2) How do I do a screen capture in Windows? I'm confused. When I press the clearly labled button on the keyboad, nothing happens.
I don't see a "screen capture" button on the keyboard. I must have been using different keyboards than you for the past 17 years or so... because there has never been a "screen capture" button.


3) About once a day, my start button/task bar disappears for a few seconds. When it comes back, it doesn't show all of the icons that were by the clock before it reset itself. When I try to start those programs again, it says that they're already running, but I don't see them. Where are they?

They're probably in some ghost town you made up in your head, or consumed by a virus that you installed because you were looking for free porn.

4) I just downloaded something called an ISO file from the web. When I click on it, it doesn't do anything. How do I open it? How do I burn it?

If you are downloading an ISO, you are smart enough to know what to do with it... and if you don't, then you don't deserve to be downloading Linux or pirating warez or whatever you kids do nowadays.


5) Can you please tell me how to do <x> in Windows? (the answer is way too frequently "buy a 3rd party program").

I rarely hear this question. Most people just want to browse the web, write a paper, or do their taxes. Both Mac OS and Windows allow the first one, and both require 3rd party programs for the other two.

Isn't the mini the only Apple product that the average person would struggle adding more memory to, and that's because of it's unique design?

The average person would take their computer to BestBuy to add memory ;)

[milozauckerman]

Also, give me the name of a decent Sony laptop. I bet it's no more than a reference number. Would you buy a car called the X8059EH? No.
This is truly the stupidest argument (about anything) I've ever heard.

[JMG]

Do you guys read the stuff you post here objectively? It's quite funny how you seem to think that the "style" of one product justifies a thousand dollar difference in price. Or that a "name" is somehow a indication of innovation.

Don't get me wrong, I love my MBP. But the Dells are overall a better deal economically. There are things OSX can do that Xp can't, and vice versa. But they basically do the same thing. If you want a machine that you can browse the internet, write a document, play some games (oops, sorry mac), play movies/music, organize your schedule etc etc then BOTH Dells (and Hps, IBMs, Compaqs, etc) and Macs do them all fine. It's all a matter of taste, and since taste is subjective, no one has the right to say that one is universally better than the other. There are too many personal preferences and tastes to even come close to making a totally true statement. It's just a stupid argument to have, and there are too many people wasting thier time on it, including me. Just get over it.

The funny thing is, it's always the mac people who are instigating it (at least in my experiences.. the switch ads, and mac/pc adds come to mind). They are like the house guest who won't stop trying to convince you to join their religion.

[JMG]

1) When I'm in Excel for Windows and have three different spread sheets open, it looks like I have three copies of Excel running at once. Why, when I close one spreadsheet does it then go and close the other two spreadsheets and exit all three copies of Excel?
are you kidding me? it doesn't close all other spreadsheets unless you quit out of the program. it looks like you have more than one excel opn because it treats each spreadsheet as it's own identity, a feature I miss on my MBP

2) How do I do a screen capture in Windows? I'm confused. When I press the clearly labled button on the keyboad, nothing happens.
because you don't know how it works. The picture is on your clipboard. Just open up any graphics program and paste it in. You can then save it as any format you want (psd, bmp, tiff, jpg.. depends on your program

3) About once a day, my start button/task bar disappears for a few seconds. When it comes back, it doesn't show all of the icons that were by the clock before it reset itself. When I try to start those programs again, it says that they're already running, but I don't see them. Where are they?

4) I just downloaded something called an ISO file from the web. When I click on it, it doesn't do anything. How do I open it? How do I burn it?
your lack of knowledge is not windows fault. Just like it wasn't apple's fault I didn't know what to do with a .dmg file once I opened it. A new hard drive appeared on my desktop.. I was lost, but I learned what to do... which is what you need to do. Google iso. duh

5) Can you please tell me how to do <x> in Windows? (the answer is way too frequently "buy a 3rd party program").
sorry, but I had to buy MS office on my mac as well. Firefox is free to all, so is itunes. Tell me, why doesn't mac support .gif animation previews when I open them? Why do I need to buy QT pro or some 3rd party program to do a simple voice recording? Windows comes with a sound recorder. And I don't want to open up garage band everytime i want to take a simple voice memo

Point is, the list for people switching from Windows to OS X and vice-versa can go on for quite awhile.

Isn't the mini the only Apple product that the average person would struggle adding more memory to, and that's because of it's unique design?

note: i still love my MBP, but I need my desktop PC for other things... best of both worlds I guess. I feel neither is superior in all catagories than the other.

[generik]

2) How do I do a screen capture in Windows? I'm confused. When I press the clearly labled button on the keyboad, nothing happens.


Oh yes, because Cmd-Shift-3 is SOOOOOOOOOOOO intuitive. Right.

Shift-Printscn, go to MS Paint, Ctrl-V to paste.

Easy.

Oh and by the way to do something like MS Paint on MacOS you need to buy Adobe Photoshop! :eek:


3) About once a day, my start button/task bar disappears for a few seconds. When it comes back, it doesn't show all of the icons that were by the clock before it reset itself. When I try to start those programs again, it says that they're already running, but I don't see them. Where are they?

4) I just downloaded something called an ISO file from the web. When I click on it, it doesn't do anything. How do I open it? How do I burn it?

5) Can you please tell me how to do <x> in Windows? (the answer is way too frequently "buy a 3rd party program").


Sorry, I believe more freeware alternatives runs on MacOS then there are software for the whole MacOS as a platform.

You know, people that use Macs all their lives ask similar questions about Windows. Except, a lot more of them.

And that's NOT what the green button is *supposed* to do. There is not, and never has been, a "maximize" button on Macs... it is the fit-to-content button. It's intelligent, efficient window-resizing. Something you apparently can't grasp. It's been that way since years before Windows 95 introduced the maximize button. If you refuse to un-learn years of inefficient screen use by maximizing everything, then go buy a PC.

And obviously a person who is incapable is reading and comprehending a short forum post is incapable of deducing what is truly intelligent.

If you reread my post those are the exact questions I have been asked from a switcher I got, not questions I have of my own. So what should I tell her? "Heh, you are such an idiot, go back to Windows you godless heathen!"

Oh, and by the way Windows 2.0 already has the maximize button, not Windows 95. You reckon your "MacOS is so original" argument still holds?



Oh and do you call your parents Mum and Dad or Aunt and Uncle? Seems those terms are basically interchangable in your case:rolleyes:

Hey, you understand the meaning that.. "it is all relative"?

Your mum is obviously not my mum, and I will be damned surprised if on your Mum's driver's license it actually prints "Mum Baxterbrittle" there as her name, bonus points for the Dad being named "Dad Baxterbrittle".

But yes, if I live in such a crazy family as yours, mum, dad, aunt, uncle, they are all interchangeable. You probably eat raw meat and make grunting noises too.

[JMG]

hey lets all congradulate apple on making a mouse with a right click!! Oh and I love my newly updated 15" MBP's ability to right click on the trackpad... way to be about 2 decades behind win 3.1 with the mouse.

[generik]

Also, give me the name of a decent Sony laptop. I bet it's no more than a reference number. Would you buy a car called the X8059EH? No.

Yes, because a car like a piece of crap name like "Mercedes E500" is such a... piece of crap, whereas a timeless name like "Toyota Corolla" is symbolic of such classiness and innovation.

See, the stupid Mercedes is named E500 today, next year's model will be E550! The one after may be E555! Oh noes! So confusing! My simple Mac brain can't handle it! Besides I've spent all the money I could have invested towards my own Mercedes on "branded" PeeCee hardware known as Macintosh!

What's left to do? Drive your innovative "Toyota Corolla" of course. A name close to your heart the same way "Corollary disease" is. Besides it is so easy to keep track. This year's will be the 2006 Corolla, next year will be the 2007 Corolla. Same deal with Macbook and Macbook Pros. No matter what's inside they all have the same name!

[thegreatluke]

The MacBook Pro starts at $1999. People always choose the lowest price possible for their bet and highest price possible for the Mac. It's always been that way.

It's true, you can spend $9,000 on a pimped out dual-screen Power Mac or you can run out and get a $400 eMachines. But which one will run better after a few weeks?

Apple could make a low-end MacBook for maybe $699 with 256 MB RAM, a 40 GB HD, a 1.6 GHz Core Solo, a 12" screen and no iSight or iLife or Bluetooth or Wifi or MagSafe or FireWire or DVI-out or well-made drive or well-made anything. It would be made out of cheap plastic better suited for dollar store purchases and it would be two inches thick. They could do it, but it would ruin the value of a Mac. You don't get use out of something like that anyway.

You can NEVER fairly compare prices between a PC and a Mac for several reasons.
a) Macs are generally made with higher-quality materials rather than cheap plastics.
b) Macs have a lot of R+D put into them to make sure they're sleek, stylish and beautiful.
c) Most companies offer substandard RAM. For example, when I was trying to match RAM while comparing a MBP to a Gateway, the Gateway only offered 533 MHz RAM while the Core Duo is supposed to use 633 MHz RAM.
d) The screens rarely match up. 14.1" or 14.2" is okay, but most of the time they're something like 1280x768 resolution rather than 1440x1028 and sometimes they're not even widescreen! Most screens aren't nearly as bright or as true-to-life as Macs have.
d) There are extras on a Mac. Lots of them. iLife is worth a lot, as well as iSight, the infrared remote and receiver, Front Row, the battery-life button on the batteries of laptops and MagSafe all add value to your Mac.
e) There are many built-in features in Mac OS X that people don't think of to buy but WILL need down the road. Virus protection*, ad-ware/spy-ware removers*, registry cleaners*, disk burning, firewalls, media software, iLife-like software and some of the equivalents of the free applications Macs come with (Quicken, etc.)
f) Most PC users wouldn't think that they'd have to spend money later in the computer's life as something breaks or dies. Macs are hardy machines and can take a LOT of abuse.

*I figured this is necessary to try to match the PC and the Mac as close as possible, so figure both computers wouldn't have these problems. And don't even try to pull that free app made by some 8 year old crap.

And, of course... It Just Works.™

[kevin.rivers]

Oh yes, because Cmd-Shift-3 is SOOOOOOOOOOOO intuitive. Right.

Shift-Printscn, go to MS Paint, Ctrl-V to paste.

Easy.

Oh and by the way to do something like MS Paint on MacOS you need to buy Adobe Photoshop! :eek:



Sorry, I believe more freeware alternatives runs on MacOS then there are software for the whole MacOS as a platform.



And obviously a person who is incapable is reading and comprehending a short forum post is incapable of deducing what is truly intelligent.

If you reread my post those are the exact questions I have been asked from a switcher I got, not questions I have of my own. So what should I tell her? "Heh, you are such an idiot, go back to Windows you godless heathen!"

Oh, and by the way Windows 2.0 already has the maximize button, not Windows 95. You reckon your "MacOS is so original" argument still holds?



Hey, you understand the meaning that.. "it is all relative"?

Your mum is obviously not my mum, and I will be damned surprised if on your Mum's driver's license it actually prints "Mum Baxterbrittle" there as her name, bonus points for the Dad being named "Dad Baxterbrittle".

But yes, if I live in such a crazy family as yours, mum, dad, aunt, uncle, they are all interchangeable. You probably eat raw meat and make grunting noises too.

Who really cares? You guys/gals should really calm down. I didn't want this to be a bitch fight. I just wanted to see what some of you would say when you get slapped with the argument of $1100 vs $2499 for basically the same thing.

[generik]

Who really cares? You guys/gals should really calm down. I didn't want this to be a bitch fight. I just wanted to see what some of you would say when you get slapped with $1100 vs $2499 for basically the same thing.

Well, the trouble with this whole point is really quite simple.

Since Apple's hardware implementation is not significantly more "problem free" than others, not like for all their genius they came up with something to counteract the heat annoyances (the whine and moo issues are even more so of a disgrace). It really all boils down to software and design.

Well I wouldn't mind paying $500 more for a nicer design. Not like the Al case costed Apple $500 anyway so they still made a handsome profit there. But why is it that the "MacOS" component of a Mac have a variable pricing of sorts? On a MBP it may be $500, but if you apply that $500 towards a Mini you get a cost breakdown that'd fail to make any sense.

What exactly is the cost of MacOS?

Since Apple doesn't sell that, nobody knows...

[KingYaba]

You know I have a G3 Pismo still going strong. 7 years and still running? How many PC laptops have the same life?

Invest in a cheap machine, get cheap results. Invest the extra bucks and expect a higher return :cool:

Macbook/Pro can boot in XP and OS X. I'd like to see his Dell do that.

Mac Owners typically keep their computers significantly longer than PC users. Better investment for the future. Long lasting.

Vista won't be a bitch to run on someone's two year old PC (system hogging whore). Leapard will run flawlesly on someone's 4 year old Mac. (Or more)

I have found myself more productive on a Mac compared to the Optiplex I had from Dell. The Dell I had and moniter had poor color representation when using InDesign. I would print something of and say wtf :confused: thats not the color I wanted!!! Though I must say I wasn't using an LCD and Dell's new LCDs are much much better.

If you want a simple answer just say "My investment in a Mac will yeild returns of productivity years from now."

[j26]

What exactly is the cost of MacOS?

Since Apple doesn't sell that, nobody knows...

Erm...
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1078/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/tiger_box_160x211.jpg

Costs $129 at full price, less on educational discount.

[SC68Cal]

No offense to anyone, but I definetly just reconsidered buying a year membership to MR. You guys all act like a bunch of kids.

[generik]

You know I have a G3 Pismo still going strong. 7 years and still running? How many PC laptops have the same life?

Invest in a cheap machine, get cheap results. Invest the extra bucks and expect a higher return :cool:

Macbook/Pro can boot in XP and OS X. I'd like to see his Dell do that.

Mac Owners typically keep their computers significantly longer than PC users. Better investment for the future. Long lasting.

Vista won't be a bitch to run on someone's two year old PC (system hogging whore). Leapard will run flawlesly on someone's 4 year old Mac. (Or more)

I have found myself more productive on a Mac compared to the Optiplex I had from Dell. The Dell I had and moniter had poor color representation when using InDesign. I would print something of and say wtf :confused: thats not the color I wanted!!! Though I must say I wasn't using an LCD and Dell's new LCDs are much much better.

If you want a simple answer just say "My investment in a Mac will yeild returns of productivity years from now."

It really depends on your definition of usable. A Pentium 3 1Ghz system with extra memory modules installed and an upgraded harddrive will be just as usable as your G3 Pismo. In fact I've used some pretty dated G4s in our school labs before, I really question your notion of "usable".

Besides, I really doubt the Macs today will last your alledged 4-7 years. Back in the day when Macs are assembled in USA or in Europe, the worksmanship is definitely better. Today Macs are literally disintegrating right out of the box, you'd be lucky if you can get through your 3 years of Applecare without sending it in for servicing once.

People say Macs are reliable, but they also recommend you get Applecare. Ironic isn't it?

[generik]

Erm...
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1078/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/tiger_box_160x211.jpg

Costs $129 at full price, less on educational discount.

That has been debunked so many times it is not funny.

What you get for $129 is an "upgrade" license to upgrade your pre-existing installation of MacOS from whatever version it was to the current version. But what's the price of the Mac OS that came with your system? Since Mac OS does not come from non Apple branded computers nobody knows the answer to that question!

[j26]

That has been debunked so many times it is not funny.

What you get for $129 is an "upgrade" license to upgrade your pre-existing installation of MacOS from whatever version it was to the current version. But what's the price of the Mac OS that came with your system? Since Mac OS does not come from non Apple branded computers nobody knows the answer to that question!

And when you upgrade from XP to Vista (at an undetermined future date) you are paying for the same. Your point being?

[vv-tim]

And when you upgrade from XP to Vista (at an undetermined future date) you are paying for the same. Your point being?

...

Well, you can't upgrade Mac OS X to Vista... so you're going to have to purchase a full copy of Vista to install on a Mac.

That's his point, duh.

[vv-tim]

You can NEVER fairly compare prices between a PC and a Mac for several reasons.
a) Macs are generally made with higher-quality materials rather than cheap plastics.

Hahaha... and that's why the MacBooks are turning yellow ;)


b) Macs have a lot of R+D put into them to make sure they're sleek, stylish and beautiful.
To some degree, yes. But there are a lot of attractive VAIOs as well.


c) Most companies offer substandard RAM. For example, when I was trying to match RAM while comparing a MBP to a Gateway, the Gateway only offered 533 MHz RAM while the Core Duo is supposed to use 633 MHz RAM.


Uhhh... the cost of 533/667 mhz ram is really not much difference. Maybe $20. So I think I can pretty easily compare. And no, the Core Duo is not SUPPOSED to get "633". The chipset supports either. I'm running my MBP w/ 533mhz ram.


d) The screens rarely match up. 14.1" or 14.2" is okay, but most of the time they're something like 1280x768 resolution rather than 1440x1028 and sometimes they're not even widescreen! Most screens aren't nearly as bright or as true-to-life as Macs have.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. I do love my MBP screen, but you seem to have no idea what's going on. 14.1" displays are normally 1280x800, whereas 14" displays are 1280x768. Either way, it's not that much diffference. I'd be happy if my stupid MBP would support a 1920x1200 display... but it doesn't.


d) There are extras on a Mac. Lots of them. iLife is worth a lot, as well as iSight, the infrared remote and receiver, Front Row, the battery-life button on the batteries of laptops and MagSafe all add value to your Mac.


Worth a lot to who? Some people might get a lot of value out of it, sure, but to me they're just novelties. I've used iLife maybe 3 times total (and only iPhoto). iMovie just doesn't seem interesting to me... iWeb is a joke for a real developer... and iTunes is free. There are IR receivers on most laptops. The remote is kind of pointless because you're using a laptop (*gasp* I mean "notebook"). The battery life button is yet another pointless feature, and I find myself annoyed with the MagSafe most of the time.


e) There are many built-in features in Mac OS X that people don't think of to buy but WILL need down the road. Virus protection*, ad-ware/spy-ware removers*, registry cleaners*, disk burning, firewalls, media software, iLife-like software and some of the equivalents of the free applications Macs come with (Quicken, etc.)


Mac OS X doesn't have virus protection or adware protection. Microsoft provides free adware programs... Disk burning is built into Windows. So is a firewall and media software. I'd rather not even use iLife-like software (though Windows Movie Maker is included w/ MCE) and I don't believe Macs come with Quicken...


f) Most PC users wouldn't think that they'd have to spend money later in the computer's life as something breaks or dies. Macs are hardy machines and can take a LOT of abuse.


I've opened my Mac like 10 times and now the upper case is peeling apart. A lot of abuse my butt. I've been a PC user for 21 years and I've had less wrong with my Compaq and Vaio in their whole life-span than I did with my MBP the day after I bought it.


*I figured this is necessary to try to match the PC and the Mac as close as possible, so figure both computers wouldn't have these problems. And don't even try to pull that free app made by some 8 year old crap.

And, of course... It Just Works.™

A computer with Windows installed by default does not have viruses, adware, or any other problems. It's the user that's too stupid. You can't add random costs in because some users are stupid. That's like saying high insurance rates should be added to Honda Civics because more people crash them (more people drive them -- in case you didn't know).

And don't bash 8 year old kids that are obviously quite a bit brighter than you.

[j26]

...

Well, you can't upgrade Mac OS X to Vista... so you're going to have to purchase a full copy of Vista to install on a Mac.

That's his point, duh.

:confused: ???

You can't install OSX on a non-Apple computer, so surely that issue is moot? Why try to price a full install when it can't be done?

Duh.:p

[j26]

A computer with Windows installed by default does not have viruses, adware, or any other problems. It's the user that's too stupid. You can't add random costs in because some users are stupid.


Your average computer user is not an enthusiast, they just want a machine to do a job for them (like me). Don't be so f***ing arrogant as to call them stupid because they don't know every little intricacy of their system. Most people don't know what makes their computer work, any more than they understand the process of fuel injection in their car. Doesn't mean they're stupid.

A computer with Windows installed by default has not had time to get exposed to the internet - do you think MS should install a few viruses just to get people started?
And you can add in random costs because people are stupid - there's a whole health and safety industry built around that very premise.

[dpaanlka]

I don't get why some of you don't just buy PCs. If you really cannot see why people are willing to pay as much as they do for Apple hardware, then why are you buying it.

And from a post way back... yes, generik, that is what you should tell your friend.

For those arguing that people with viruses are too stupid... I'm guessing that means they're not computer nerds like yourself who know what to actively beware of in case of virsues. Windows is stupid enough to let *stupid* users do stupid things. Your "people are stupid" argument is ridiculous, and only further proves the point against Windows.

[gnasher729]

I agree. Someone said that Dell's can't run OSX. Yeah they can, it's been done already.

That's a rather idiotic comment. You cannot run MacOS X on any Dell computer _legally_. If we consider illegal actions as well, then people can get MacBook Pros much cheaper than a Dell by robbing their nearest Apple store, or by defrauding someone on eBay. I bet that has also been done already.

Obviously you aren't too classy.
Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc... they all use ridiculous model numbers that I can't remember, but apparently they are better :]

I don't know about Lexus, but Mercedes and BMW model numbers have been using the same pattern for many, many years. On every Mercedes, the number is the engine size in cubic centimeters, divided by ten. So any Mercedes xxx 300 has a three liter engine. The first letter is the size. On BMWs, the first digit indicates the car size (typically 3, 5 or 7), the next two digits are engine size divided by 100. So a BMW 525 is the medium sized one with a 2.5 liter engine.

Imagine calling tech support.

luser: "Hello, hi, my iMac is not working."
tech: "Can you please tell me which iMac it is?"


It is my opinion that anyone who refers to computer users as "lusers" should never, ever be allowed into any programming job, or any other IT related job. It shows a serious attitude problem that will cost the company such a person is working for dearly at some point.

[j26]

I don't know about Lexus, but Mercedes and BMW model numbers have been using the same pattern for many, many years. On every Mercedes, the number is the engine size in cubic centimeters, divided by ten. So any Mercedes xxx 300 has a three liter engine. The first letter is the size. On BMWs, the first digit indicates the car size (typically 3, 5 or 7), the next two digits are engine size divided by 100. So a BMW 525 is the medium sized one with a 2.5 liter engine.

Didn't know that. There isn't a BMW 712 by any chance, is there?

[generik]

:confused: ???

You can't install OSX on a non-Apple computer, so surely that issue is moot? Why try to price a full install when it can't be done?

Duh.:p

Because for the purposes of this discussion it is actually interesting to put an actual price tag on MacOS. And no, unlike Windows XP which probably costs the OEM a fixed $50 (probably less) each, the "cost" which Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS on a Mac Mini, a MBP, and a Mac Pro can range really wildly.

Why is that so?

It is my opinion that anyone who refers to computer users as "lusers" should never, ever be allowed into any programming job, or any other IT related job. It shows a serious attitude problem that will cost the company such a person is working for dearly at some point.

Similarly it is my opinion that treating users as idiots and handholding accordingly is a great policy. Attitude problem? Don't think so. A turd is a turd no matter how you polish it, but hey, there is help available should s/he need it.

I've helped countless lusers fix up their bug ridden Windows XP computers, and at the end of it, poof, just delete the GD administrator account. Fantastic policy.

[Passante]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration* :eek:
The E1505 looks more like a MacBook (with a slower processor) than the Macbook Pro. I would have a hard time justifying the cost of the Macbook Pro over the MacBook for most of my computing needs. I imaging most non-Macrumors members would also. So do your comparison using the Macbook and its a slam dunk. Can the Dell run both windose and OSX no and so on.

[Killyp]

Tell us frankly.. you made that model number up right?

Yes. It doesn't really matter...


Sure, all those are nice features, but let's not forget the issues plaguing macs either.

Or those plaguing PCs, like Viruses, spontaneous slowing down, crashes etc...


How often does our sassy college-going Jane Doe get affected by the smart LAN cable detection?


Every time she connects her laptop to the network I'd imagine, most people don't know and don't care about the difference between a standard CAT5 or CAT6 cable and a crossover CAT6. All they want is to see a cable which looks like an ethernet cable, plug one end into their laptop, the other into the network or another computer and for it to just work...


How often does she get sweaty palms each day? Windows XP can change resolution without restarting too, hello? You still stuck on Linux on the PC world?


Yeh, it can change the resolution without restarting, but 99% of laptops can't activate the secondary channel in the graphics chip which feeds the external display output (you can tell I'm no techno whizz when it comes to GPUs), unless all you want to do is just mirror the internal display.


An OS that is 6 years ahead of anything on the market, sure, it is too advanced to run the bulk of the world's software. Or I can just cut to the chase and simply ask source please. And no, sources with "Mac" and "Apple" in them are not independent sources.


Okay then, if it isn't 6 years ahead of it's time, that must meen Windows XP is just as good as OS X. After all, XP is now 6 years old, and Vista looks like it's going to be closer to OS X's standards. That's SIX years between Apple releasing OS X and Microsoft releasing Vista...


In fact that list while very nice, and impressive sounding, think about how many of the features you named can't be just as easily struck off the list because it also exists in Windows XP? Hmm.. not so many left, and I don't care about what's left.

I don't understand. Surely the whole point in a laptop having those features is because you want it to. If you don't want all those things, then a Dell is for you...

[bbrosemer]

Every time she connects her laptop to the network I'd imagine, most people don't know and don't care about the difference between a standard CAT5 or CAT6 cable and a crossover CAT6. All they want is to see a cable which looks like an ethernet cable, plug one end into their laptop, the other into the network or another computer and for it to just work...
Hey I take offense to that I know the difference and am just an average college student, you know some of us are smarter than ya think.... Some average girl....Yeah id have to agree especially since they all use Gateways :eek:

[kgarner]

That has been debunked so many times it is not funny.

What you get for $129 is an "upgrade" license to upgrade your pre-existing installation of MacOS from whatever version it was to the current version. But what's the price of the Mac OS that came with your system? Since Mac OS does not come from non Apple branded computers nobody knows the answer to that question!
What you get for your $129 is a full license of OS X. It is not an upgrade because you can take that disc and install it onto a blank hard drive (i.e. no previous install of OS X exists). The install does not ask for you to insert your previous version or system restore disc to verify that you have an old version (a common pratice of upgrade versions). And since OS X does not require a serial number or other such regulation you are not asked to enter the previous nubmer to verify ownership of a previous version. It is a full version, not an upgrade.

[chaosbunny]

generik, you wrote somewhere that pcs and windows are about choice. Where is the choice when I'm forced to use an operating system I do not like? I chose OS X, and I am happy with it.

[Topono]

the "cost" which Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS on a Mac Mini, a MBP, and a Mac Pro can range really wildly.


So you are saying Apple might charge themselves $60 to put OS X on a Mac mini, then turn around and charge themselves the full $129 to put OS X on a Mac Pro?

:confused:

[gco212]

I'm calling BS on the initial premise here. When the macbook (not pro) came out, there was a page 2 story here comparing the macbook to 4 laptops made by other PC manufactuers. The macbook had the best or close to best specs/dollar of any of them.

But now someone says that for the cost of a macbook, not pro, there's a laptop with the specs of the pro? I'd like to see this.

I recently built a 1505 (didn't buy it) with 2 gigs of RAM, 120 GB HDD, 256 MB ATI X1400, 2.0 GHz Core Duo, 4 year extended warranty with Complete Care, and a Sound Blaster audio card for $1400, for $1100, you could lose the 2 Gigs of RAM, and warranty, and fall very close to the specs of the MBP by adding the remote for $25.

[gco212]

What you get for your $129 is a full license of OS X. It is not an upgrade because you can take that disc and install it onto a blank hard drive (i.e. no previous install of OS X exists). The install does not ask for you to insert your previous version or system restore disc to verify that you have an old version (a common pratice of upgrade versions). And since OS X does not require a serial number or other such regulation you are not asked to enter the previous nubmer to verify ownership of a previous version. It is a full version, not an upgrade.

Maybe it's not an upgrade, but since it can't be used on anything other than Mac hardware, there's also no way it could be used on a computer that didn't previously have a Mac OS on it, so you must be using it to upgrade the computer.

[user23]

Two points.

1) Boot camp is currently in beta.

2) Overpaying Apple for the previlege of running Mac OS on a computer equipped with a big brother chip does not really equate to an advantage. On the Apple, the user chooses to get blackmailed. For the Dell user he refuses to yield. There is no technical reason why MacOS can't run on the Dell apart from Apple's business model.

What are you speaking about? Big Brother chip? :confused:

Surely you *must* be referring to Windows machines & their quaint efforts to control piracy...like WGA.

regarding other statements you have made, what does Alcohol 120% do that Toast can't?

Similarly it is my opinion that treating users as idiots and handholding accordingly is a great policy. Attitude problem? Don't think so. A turd is a turd no matter how you polish it, but hey, there is help available should s/he need it.

I've helped countless lusers fix up their bug ridden Windows XP computers, and at the end of it, poof, just delete the GD administrator account. Fantastic policy.


Wow. You just summed yourself up nicely, Mr. Misanthrope.

You are, essentially, just a troll. Not even just a forum troll, but a life troll. Nice attitude, try Prozac - maybe you'll smile for once in your life ;)


Have you ever considered that, maybe, users aren't idiots? Maybe they are normal people faced with using a bizarrely complicated & buggy OS? Windows, to me, is a wretched non-intuitive experience. I don't blame the peeps for "getting stupid" when using it...

[user23]

Because for the purposes of this discussion it is actually interesting to put an actual price tag on MacOS. And no, unlike Windows XP which probably costs the OEM a fixed $50 (probably less) each, the "cost" which Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS on a Mac Mini, a MBP, and a Mac Pro can range really wildly.

Why is that so?


Uhm, this statement of yours is flat-out bizarre.

Please, do, cite your sources for how much Windows costs a distributor. Frankly, I think you are totally clueless in this dept. since you've already used the key word "probably" which, to me, indicates GUESS WORK.

Second, "Apple charges itself for various copies of MacOS" :confused:

What various copies & prices of OS X are you talking about? Cite sources.

[Natsus]

What are you speaking about? Big Brother chip? :confused:

Surely you *must* be referring to Windows machines & their quaint efforts to control piracy...like WGA.

regarding other statements you have made, what does Alcohol 120% do that Toast can't?

I too am curious about the big brother chip. If it's anything like what I'm thinking of, it does not exist.

In any case, the bottom line is that Dell Laptops are cheaper than Macs no matter how you price it. Some one already summed it up nicely but it seemed to have been glossed over so I'll repeat it. Dell Laptops are cheaper compared to ANY laptop brand. Why? Because they can. Larger market share plus various other reasons.

I don't see why we need to have this argument. Macs will always be more expensive due to a smaller share of the market. You are pretty much paying extra for OSX and its corresponding Apple only apps, as well as a sleaker design.

However, if the financial reports are anything to go by, Apple's user base will increase further thus driving the price lower, making it more competitive.

Then again, I somehow doubt we'll see a lower price point any time soon :(

[RichardFASmith]

I like the car analogy. However, I would like to modify it to better suit the question. When a MacBook Pro and a Dell whatever model have similar spec, why go for the more expensive MacBook Pro? Lets rephrase. When a Skoda Fabia, and a VW Golf are in essence the same car, why go for the more expensive VW? Afterall they are similar cars, they have similar engines, the same Volkswagen engineers, the same VW chasis (I apolagise for spelling). So why do people buy the more expensive Golf? Simply put, spec isn't everything, you buy a Golf, and you get respect, you get build quality, you buy the style. Whereas if you buy the budget car, everyone will look at your car and know you were trying to go cheap, they will know that you'd prefer price over quality. Same goes for a Mac over a Dell. Sorry to ramble for so long, but the analogy fits. next time someone asks you that question, reply by asking whether they would buy a Golf over a similar Fabia.

[user23]

I too am curious about the big brother chip. If it's anything like what I'm thinking of, it does not exist.

In any case, the bottom line is that Dell Laptops are cheaper than Macs no matter how you price it. Some one already summed it up nicely but it seemed to have been glossed over so I'll repeat it. Dell Laptops are cheaper compared to ANY laptop brand. Why? Because they can. Larger market share plus various other reasons.

I don't see why we need to have this argument. Macs will always be more expensive due to a smaller share of the market. You are pretty much paying extra for OSX and its corresponding Apple only apps, as well as a sleaker design.

However, if the financial reports are anything to go by, Apple's user base will increase further thus driving the price lower, making it more competitive.

Then again, I somehow doubt we'll see a lower price point any time soon :(

Nicely stated. I'd like to add that a Mac remains a quick machine from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. They are quality machines built from quality components that last a looooong time. This is why Macs have a high resale value YEARS down the line, and why Windows machines don't.

yes, yes. go ahead and tell us all about how crappy MBP machines are with all their flaws. Go ahead and tell us all how crappy the hi-res Power Book was with all its flaws. But, remember, Apple sells MILLIONS of machines...and just like ANY computer manufacturer, there will be issues with some of those machines. This is what life is like on the material plane, things break & are sometimes broken from the beginning. That's what Apple Care & product warranty's are for.

However, I can assure you, if Macs/iPods really "sucked"...Then Apple wouldn't have Financial Quarters such as the one that just passed by. Glad I own me some AAPL ;)

[displaced]

If you're arguing with a self-confessed 'tech' lover, call them out on their closed-mindedness.

A true geek will want to have used and know about everything out there. They should've taken the time to get to understand how a whole stack of operating systems and hardware work.

Anyone with a proper understanding should be able to appreciate (and, with knowledge) properly critique the design of an operating system.

Try to get them to debate the details. Talk about Quartz Compositor versus GDI or GDI+. Show knowledge of the 'other side'. Know how technologies compare. Acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of both sides (the WinNT kernel is, in isolation, actually quite good indeed). Mention in passing that a lot of the direction Microsoft is taking their platform is in fact borrowing the same concepts that OS X (and, indeed, NeXTSTEP) have always followed (so much of the .net approach to application structure is clearly mirroring OS X's).

Diffuse the conflict, and start a discussion!

For the real techie who doesn't understand Macs, you'll pique their interest and probably get them asking question after question about the Mac.

For the non-technical, non-partisan computer user, a simple demo of how OS X behaves is usually enough for them to appreciate the machine.

For the "a little knowledge is dangerous", highly partisan Windows user, you'll expose holes in their understanding of their own operating system.

[vv-tim]

Nicely stated. I'd like to add that a Mac remains a quick machine from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. They are quality machines built from quality components that last a looooong time. This is why Macs have a high resale value YEARS down the line, and why Windows machines don't.

Nice try.

Macs remain at the same speed from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. "Quick" is a relative term. If I sell my new MBP in 5 years, it will not be "quick" by the standards of 2011.

They are quality designs made from normal parts. In fact, my friends will Dell 700Ms have MUCH BETTER Wi-Fi range than my MBP :/ It kinda stinks.

Oh, and Macs have a high resale value years down the line because Macs have a fixed cycle of upgrades. PCs upgrade monthyl or bi-monthly. With a Mac you get upgrades every six months or so. The Mac upgrade cycle is what lends it to such a good level of depreciation.

[kumbaya]

In no particular order these things make an MBP better than an E1505

• Better Video Card: MBP has ATi X1600 Mobility Radeon, featuring DDR3 memory as opposed to X1400 with DDR2 memory for the E1505
• Better Video Card, part 2: Has dual link DVI support so you can drive a 30” Apple Cinema Display. E1505 only has a VGA port – what is the maximum external display E1505 can drive? For MBP it is 2560 x 1600
• Better Hard Drive: MBP uses Seagate or equivalent, E1505 uses ?? re-packaged as Dell!
• Audio: input and output sockets are optical digital (I read earlier this gives lower latency)
• Better design: MBP can do dual display or video mirroring or lid-closed driving an external monitor
• Install/Restore DVD – more convenient to restore your computer to when you got it (not sure what Dell gives you – you have to pay for the Windows CD if you want one)
• Faster RAM – it runs at the speed of the 667 frontside system bus on MBP, on E1505 only at 533MHz

Built-in on MBP, not available on E1505:

• MagSafe Power Adapter – reduces your chance of accidentally tripping over the power cable and completely trashing your computer
• Lithium Polymer Battery – better technology
• Battery Charge Indicator LED – one touch to check the remaining charge in your battery
• Apple Remote – simpler and easier to use
• Built-in webcam
• Back-lit keyboard
• Ambient light sensors dims screen and lit keyboard automatically
• Lighter: MBP is 5.6 pounds; E1505 starts at 6.18 pounds
• Thinner: MBP is 1 inch high, E1505 is 1.42 inches high
• Faster Network capability: MBP has 10/100/1000 network card, E1505 only has 10/100
• 6-pin FireWire 400 port, E1505 only has 4-pin FireWire, so you need an adapter to use most FireWire stuff
• iLife, Photo Booth and Front Row software

Oh, and one more thing. With the Dell, you’re running Windows, dude.

[kumbaya]

To get a true idea of what a Dell that is something equivalent to the MBP would cost, you should spec off the XPS M1710. It comes out to $2964 for the Dell vs $2699 for the 17 inch MBP, with the Dell having a larger screen resolution on the display.

E1505 is more equivalent to the MacBook. Although MacBook is only 13 inch display, the resolution is 1200 x 800 - the same as E1505.

Even then, MacBook has a lot of things like MagSafe, Lithium Polymer Battery, faster RAM, faster networking card like the MacBook Pro that E1505 does not and cannot have - and the pricing is a lot, lot closer.

The suspect part of this p***ing contest between Dell and Apple's notebooks is the statement 'the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP'.

That statement is complete rubbish.

:p

[QCassidy352]

Uhhh... the cost of 533/667 mhz ram is really not much difference. Maybe $20. So I think I can pretty easily compare. And no, the Core Duo is not SUPPOSED to get "633". The chipset supports either. I'm running my MBP w/ 533mhz ram.

configure a high end (XPS) dell laptop. Choose 4 GB RAM. 667 mhz RAM adds $3000 to your purchase. 533 mhz adds $1800 to your purchase. So there must be some difference, eh? :rolleyes:

In any case, the bottom line is that Dell Laptops are cheaper than Macs no matter how you price it. Some one already summed it up nicely but it seemed to have been glossed over so I'll repeat it. Dell Laptops are cheaper compared to ANY laptop brand. Why? Because they can. Larger market share plus various other reasons.

Yes, that was me. I'm not sure why no one seems to understand this. Dell is the 800 lb. gorilla of the computer world, so they can undersell the competition to the point of making razor thin profits per machine.

And again I'll say, the E laptop line seems to be a great deal even by Dell's standards. Price it against Dell's own XPS line; the XPS comes out looking about twice as expensive for marginally more power. Kudos to Dell for producing a quality, well priced product in the E line, but frankly that's the exception.
macbook price comparison (http://www.dtgeeks.com/index.php/blogs/comment/is_the_macbook_the_most_competitively_priced_mac_ever/)

[dpaanlka]

I must say the $469 B130 with 15" display is an impressive deal. If, for some reason, I wanted a PC, that would probably be it.

[Makosuke]

Man, this is one of the silliest Mac vs. Wintel threads I've read in a while.

I'm just going to point out one thing:

Yes, you can get a similarly equipped Dell for less than a MacBook Pro. But an $1100 Inspiron (it does have a name) E1505 vs $2500 is ridiculous. Even with the upgrades that Dell added to the E1505 since yesterday, the $2000 MBP with an added 100GB drive and 1GB RAM ($2200) is a much closer match, and just adding an WSXGA+ screen, a 2.0GHz processor, and 7300 graphics (all of which are stock on the cheapest MBP... ok, the WSXXGA+ is a little higher res, but the 7300 isn't equivalent to the X1600) to the E1505 brings its price up to about $1350. Toss in Bluetooth and XP Pro, and you're at $1550.

Still a lot cheaper, obviously, but that's still not the point, because the E1505 is NOT an equivalent machine to the MBP. It might be perfectly fine for a lot of users who don't want to pay that much, but it's not equivalent. It's a half-inch thicker, a pound heavier, doesn't have a midrange graphics chip like the X1600 even as an option, only VGA out (certainly not DualLink DVI), no camera or mic built in, the ethernet is 10/100 instead of gigabit, and while it does have a full-sized ExpressCard slot, modem, and a media reader built in, there's no firewire ports, it certainly doesn't have optical audio I/O, and you're going to pay extra for a software bundle like iLife if you have use for it.

The point isn't necessarily that you need all (or any) of those things, and if you don't, the E1505 is a great deal. The point is, the E1505 is not a high-end "thin" laptop, it's a midrange "standard" one, and does not include all the bells and whistles.

You can certainly argue that Apple should offer a basic 15" model like the E1505 *without* the bells and whistles for a price closer to the MacBook (which, in fact, ALSO includes all the bells and whistles), but Apple doesn't. Basically, you get a decked out computer whether you want it or not. You pay for it, and you pay a premium, but it's not as drastic a difference as it seems if you compare similar models.

Does Dell even sell a laptop thinner than 1.44" that's not an Alienware? And you're certainly looking at the XPS (or Alienware) models to get into the same feature set range as the MBP, with a larger (and probably heavier) case.

[SC68Cal]

In no particular order these things make an MBP better than an E1505

• Better Video Card: MBP has ATi X1600 Mobility Radeon, featuring DDR3 memory as opposed to X1400 with DDR2 memory for the E1505
• Better Video Card, part 2: Has dual link DVI support so you can drive a 30” Apple Cinema Display. E1505 only has a VGA port – what is the maximum external display E1505 can drive? For MBP it is 2560 x 1600
• Better Hard Drive: MBP uses Seagate or equivalent, E1505 uses ?? re-packaged as Dell!
• Audio: input and output sockets are optical digital (I read earlier this gives lower latency)
• Better design: MBP can do dual display or video mirroring or lid-closed driving an external monitor
• Install/Restore DVD – more convenient to restore your computer to when you got it (not sure what Dell gives you – you have to pay for the Windows CD if you want one)
• Faster RAM – it runs at the speed of the 667 frontside system bus on MBP, on E1505 only at 533MHz

Built-in on MBP, not available on E1505:

• MagSafe Power Adapter – reduces your chance of accidentally tripping over the power cable and completely trashing your computer
• Lithium Polymer Battery – better technology
• Battery Charge Indicator LED – one touch to check the remaining charge in your battery
• Apple Remote – simpler and easier to use
• Built-in webcam
• Back-lit keyboard
• Ambient light sensors dims screen and lit keyboard automatically
• Lighter: MBP is 5.6 pounds; E1505 starts at 6.18 pounds
• Thinner: MBP is 1 inch high, E1505 is 1.42 inches high
• Faster Network capability: MBP has 10/100/1000 network card, E1505 only has 10/100
• 6-pin FireWire 400 port, E1505 only has 4-pin FireWire, so you need an adapter to use most FireWire stuff
• iLife, Photo Booth and Front Row software

Oh, and one more thing. With the Dell, you’re running Windows, dude.

It's about time that someone actually pounded out a real answer to the OP.

[displaced]

Built-in on MBP, not available on E1505:

• MagSafe Power Adapter – reduces your chance of accidentally tripping over the power cable and completely trashing your computer

Before I got my MBP, I read with nervousness the reports of how annoying MagSafe was -- cables coming out unexpectedly at the slightest movement, etc. But I must say, in the 3 1/2 month I've had my machine, MagSafe has avoided 2 or 3 nasty falls. Neat little touch, that.


• Battery Charge Indicator LED – one touch to check the remaining charge in your battery

To be fair, every Dell battery I've seen has had that too. However, it's on the side of the battery, so you have to remove it from the machine to check it. The Apple batteries therefore have a much more usable display. I've used this on many times to check the MBP's charge level before taking it out somewhere. Handy to check the charge without having to wake it or remove the battery.


• Back-lit keyboard
• Ambient light sensors dims screen and lit keyboard automatically


These features are greatly under-estimated by some (including myself before I got my MBP). I absolutely love the backlit keyboard.


• Faster Network capability: MBP has 10/100/1000 network card, E1505 only has 10/100

This is also of great use to me. My workplace is all gigabit ethernet, and it's a real pleasure to have file transfers happen that much quicker.


• 6-pin FireWire 400 port, E1505 only has 4-pin FireWire, so you need an adapter to use most FireWire stuff

... and not only do you need a different cable or adapter, but you also lose the joy of bus-powered devices (the extra 2 pins are power). It's fantastic to have an external hard disk that's every bit as portable as the computer - just plug in and go without hunting for a mains socket or messing with multiple USB plugs to feed the drive with enough power.


• iLife, Photo Booth and Front Row software

Say no more... iLife and OS X's excellent integration of all forms of personal data and personal devices (iPod, bluetooth phone, etc) has finally given me a system which fulfils the promise that computers had for me the first time I made an address book database on my Acorn Electron back in 1985.

Oh, and one more thing. With the Dell, you’re running Windows, dude.

I'm very, very happy with OS X. There genuinely is absolutely nothing that Windows can offer me other than gaming. And that's why I've got a 'Wintendo' BootCamp partition :)

(edit: the DVI thing is important to me now. I don't want to use VGA for anything. I'm amazed it's taken so incredibly long for DVI to become standard on PC laptops. I don't see how you gain anything by sticking with VGA... I mean, the DVI carries the legacy VGA signal on a few pins, should you need it, anyway... not to mention S-Video and composite as well).

[user23]

Nice try.

Macs remain at the same speed from the day you buy it to the day you sell it. "Quick" is a relative term. If I sell my new MBP in 5 years, it will not be "quick" by the standards of 2011.

Obviously. However, unless one does a) video work b) heavy graphics work (ie: multi hundred megabyte files) c) hard-core gaming - well, you're just not really going to need to get a faster & faster machine as the years go by. My point in mentioning the speed of a Mac is that they are quick machines, and stay quick. No need to constantly defrag & the like either. And, best of all, unlike Windows revisions (vide Vista system requirements) & upgrades, OS X, as it evolves, actually increases performance on legacy Macs.

They are quality designs made from normal parts. In fact, my friends will Dell 700Ms have MUCH BETTER Wi-Fi range than my MBP :/ It kinda stinks.

what does normal mean?
While on the subject of WiFi, I'm with you there. It is a curiosity that my MBP gets crappier range than my friend's older iBook. Oh well, I'm not one who needs to stretch the limits of my wireless range, anyway. I don't think the vast majority of people need to, either. And, in a market, it's all about vast majorities and what they need or don't need.

Oh, and Macs have a high resale value years down the line because Macs have a fixed cycle of upgrades. PCs upgrade monthyl or bi-monthly. With a Mac you get upgrades every six months or so. The Mac upgrade cycle is what lends it to such a good level of depreciation.

sorry, but this does't make too much sense to me. If anything, the "slow" upgrade cycle of Macs should hinder their resale value. While Macs take a long time to refresh, the PC makers are frequently increasing chip speed, etc. the whole time. So, you see, an "old" Mac *should* be comparatively worthless to a much newer PC...if you compare clock speed alone. But, instead, "old, slow" Macs seem to hold on to their value. Why? Because they are Well Made machines, made with the best quality components available at time of manufacture...and everyone knows quality simply lasts longer.

Ask Mercedes Benz & Volvo owners about this phenomenon. Or, even Honda & Toyota owners at the other end of the cost spectrum.

[aristobrat]

I too am curious about the big brother chip. If it's anything like what I'm thinking of, it does not exist.
I think he's talking about the Trusted Platform Module, which Apple uses to make sure that unhacked versions of OS X will only run Apple Intel hardware.

http://daringfireball.net/2005/08/trusted

[JackSYi]

You pay the Apple premium. First off, where else are you going to get OS X? I am a computer sales associate, and Apple computers are very well built. A similarly spec'd out HP just feels cheap to me.

[poppe]

The simple fact is You can compare a Bimmer and a Lexus and try to make pros and cons to decide which one is better, but A Hyundai and and Bimmer or Lexus really can't be compared.

You can easily get almost just as much as what the Bimmer offers (features) as the Hyundai but it still really doesn't compare.

Just different leagues... thats my opinion then

And I'm sorry to do another lame car comparisson I know that it has been exhausted.

[aristobrat]

Hrmmm, if I'm not wrong, it warns you about that. You clicked the wrong button. You're just dumb.
The point is that both Windows and OS X both have applictions with inconsistant user interfaces and actions, and it was directed to generik's friend that was thinking that OS X wasn't cracked up to be as good as everyone says it is because she came across an application that had a window with no red button to close it. Excel does not behave the same way as other Win32 applications when it makes multiple Excel documents look like "different copies of the Excel program" running. Word doesn't do that. PowerPoint doesn't do that. Just Excel.

The other examples I gave (print screen, Explorer crashing and not properly restoring the GUI when it recovers, and the ISO) are just some of the Windows crap that I see our helpdesk staff running around helping the averaged IQ regular American folks (you know, the ones that are just dumb and click the wrong button) that work at our company figure out. The point I was trying to make is that every OS has its nuances that the user has to learn.

The average person would take their computer to BestBuy to add memory ;)
Again, this was in reply to generik's friend that seemed upset that she couldn't upgrade her mini's memory. Apparently she's not an average user?

[bbrosemer]

I think this more or less sums up the average person they own a PC laptop and dont know all of the features, then if they move to mac it slaps them in the face with its features, there that is the difference.

[vv-tim]

To get a true idea of what a Dell that is something equivalent to the MBP would cost, you should spec off the XPS M1710. It comes out to $2964 for the Dell vs $2699 for the 17 inch MBP, with the Dell having a larger screen resolution on the display.

E1505 is more equivalent to the MacBook. Although MacBook is only 13 inch display, the resolution is 1200 x 800 - the same as E1505.

:p

The M1710 is not comparable with a MBP. It's a gaming laptop. Designed for gamers. With gamer budgets. With pointless features. For unreasonable prices (even worse than Apple's premium). You have things like LEDs that change color on the M1710, a better video card, etc.

The E1405 would be more comparable to the MacBook. The E1505 can support a 1920x1200 display with aftermarket parts and a 1680x1050 display when configured on Dell's website (same as the 17" MBP). The MacBook can support a 1280x800 display. I don't see how you can compare something leaning towards an ultraportable (MacBook) with a 15.4" laptop.

In case anyone's looking for a nice Dell deal... you can pick up a E1505 w/ 1.83ghz processor, 1gb ram, 60gb hd, X1300 video, and 8x dvd burner for $632 at Dell today ;)

[j26]

...The E1505 can support a 1920x1200 display with aftermarket parts and a 1680x1050 display when configured on Dell's website (same as the 17" MBP). The MacBook can support a 1280x800 display. ...

Ahem...
Graphics and Video Support

* Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 SDRAM shared with main memory1
* Extended desktop and video mirroring: Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display and up to 1920 x 1200 pixels on an external display, both at millions of colors

Without any aftermarket parts btw (except a Mini DVI-DVI adaptor ($19))

[milozauckerman]

Simply put, spec isn't everything, you buy a Golf, and you get respect, you get build quality, you buy the style. Whereas if you buy the budget car, everyone will look at your car and know you were trying to go cheap, they will know that you'd prefer price over quality. Same goes for a Mac over a Dell.

Jesus, if it were that simple, I'd buy a Dell just to avoid schmucks who consume out of a desire for 'respect.'

A lot of the pro-Apple arguments - excluding the absurd "IT'S GOT A NAME" and "BMW VS. FORD YOU DIRTY PROLE" stuff - focus on where Dell seemingly saves money compared to the Apple. No Gigabit Ethernet, no iLife, more convenient battery lights, yada yada yada. In each of those cases, though, I can't help but wish that I had the option of buying an Apple without all of the unnecessary stuff (if it were actually those components adding into the price, which I don't think is true).

All the software I use I have to buy separately - Nisus Express, Aperture, CS2, etc., Vuescan - or else it's free - VLC, Firefox, Camino - from third-party vendors. I have zero use for gigabit ethernet. I've never really cared about the lights on a laptop battery. iTunes and Safari are the only packaged freebies I couldn't live without (and could live without Safari, really).

[milozauckerman]

If anything, the "slow" upgrade cycle of Macs should hinder their resale value. While Macs take a long time to refresh, the PC makers are frequently increasing chip speed, etc. the whole time. So, you see, an "old" Mac *should* be comparatively worthless to a much newer PC...if you compare clock speed alone. But, instead, "old, slow" Macs seem to hold on to their value. Why? Because they are Well Made machines, made with the best quality components available at time of manufacture...and everyone knows quality simply lasts longer.

Um... no.
Back in the day, used prices were artificially inflated because they were comparable to the newest products on the market. A first-gen G4 Powerbook was comparable to the last-gen - so the demand was higher for used. Why buy new and take the hit yourself?

In the future, Apple used prices won't be so high. Product cycles will have to be continuous (or else Apple will be tied into a string of catch-up games in price and features) and there will be a vast difference between the products of today and the products of yesterday.

Does design play a small role? Maybe. People like 'pretty' ****, even though Apple's design is really kind of blasé at this point. But G4 towers held their value, and they were just as ugly as any Dell (or moreso in the case of the blue ones). Nobody was buying a Quicksilver tower in order to pimp out the living room.

[vv-tim]

Ahem...


Without any aftermarket parts btw (except a Mini DVI-DVI adaptor ($19))

A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

[kumbaya]

[QUOTE=vv-tim]The M1710 is not comparable with a MBP. It's a gaming laptop. Designed for gamers. With gamer budgets. With pointless features. For unreasonable prices (even worse than Apple's premium). You have things like LEDs that change color on the M1710, a better video card, etc.

The E1405 would be more comparable to the MacBook. The E1505 can support a 1920x1200 display with aftermarket parts and a 1680x1050 display when configured on Dell's website (same as the 17" MBP). The MacBook can support a 1280x800 display. I don't see how you can compare something leaning towards an ultraportable (MacBook) with a 15.4" laptop.

snip

QUOTE]

if you're going to compare a dell notebook with a macbook pro, the *closest* specc'd machine is the m1710.

this whole thread underlies the point that there are no exact same products from the two companies which you can then price compare.

e1405 and macbook are also a lot closer in price and e1405 still misses a ton of features that macbook has

[kumbaya]

A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

are you saying that you can order a new screen from dell for your laptop that will run at 1920x1200?

[Hornblower]

I probably shouldn't post, but...

I am finding the arguments about Apple's hardware being far superior to be kind of amusing these days. Considering all the Macbook Pro issues (heat problems, whining issues, mooing issues, warped cases, batteries overheating, etc.) and Macbook problems, its hard to claim Apple's designs are superior to Dell right now. Apple's quality control doesn't seem that great at the moment.

My Macbook Pro had to go back because it had kernal failures every couple hours. I've never had a new Dell do that to me. I've never had a "notebook" computer that I couldn't comfortably use on my lap. Give me a slightly thicker case if it means its more convenient. I didn't have to worry about picking up my Dell laptops while running and having it interfere with the cd drive if I didn't pick it up right.

I think hardware quality of Apple's vs Dell's is a moot point now. They both have lemons.

The resale value argument is also interesting. Apple is going to have to shorten their update windows because they are using Intel hardware now. Intel releases chipsets a lot faster then what Apple has dealt with before, so if Apple doesn't want to fall behind the Windows equivalent laptops, they'll have to upgrade as well.

I found in my brief usage of OS X that it really is superior to Windows XP in a lot of ways. I liked it so much I want to wait for better Apple laptops or consider a tower if they come out soon (with the Intel chips). OS X is great, and iLife looked pretty nice.

That said, Mac users constantly putting down Windows for its stability problems, virus and spyware issues, and such, really need to get better informed. If you use the free tools Microsoft gives you, you rarely will have crashes or issues. Most 'normal' Windows users I know are more then fine running their systems without spyware issues, or viruses. It isn't nearly the problem Mac or this board would have you believe.

Anyway, I'd like to switch to the Mac again. I like the OS X integration and want to run Aperture, which maybe is the one great app I can't reproduce on the Windows side.

[generik]

I probably shouldn't post, but...

I am finding the arguments about Apple's hardware being far superior to be kind of amusing these days. Considering all the Macbook Pro issues (heat problems, whining issues, mooing issues, warped cases, batteries overheating, etc.) and Macbook problems, its hard to claim Apple's designs are superior to Dell right now. Apple's quality control doesn't seem that great at the moment.


I won't really say it is so much about comparing Apples with other Citrus fruits (pun intended), it is more about Apple finding itself in a more competitive market, suddenly faced with higher costs (the Intel processors do cost more than the G4s for one), and trying to protect their phat profit margins & appear competitive at the same time.

During the G4 days, nobody really knows how much Apple's hardware really cost to produce. After all they are running largely custom engineered solutions, and they can always claim R&D for their products to be $0 or $100 billion if they so desire, not that it'd be hard to denounce their inflated figures, but it is certainly not as easy now.

There was even word that a G4 1.67Ghz processor only costed Apple US$74 back in the day. This processor is used in a $2000 computer. The beauty of it all? Since there were no equivalent alternatives, Apple can pretend the PPC architecture is so superior that their 1.67Ghz PBG4 is priced equivalently to a 2Ghz Centrino PC laptop.

Is it overpriced? Yes. Do people know better? No. At least they didn't know until a point when Apple can't pretend any longer and the cat is let out of the bag.. hence we have the Intel transition.

Today analysts can simply take a Macbook Pro, strip it down to its parts, and calculated exactly how much it costs Apple to produce one of such devices. The parts of the intel processor, the chipset, and more importantly, the cost of the talent needed to engineer one of these board solutions, are all pretty much common knowledge to the people in the industry. At least more common than the PPC world (that said I should of course say that the PPC is not a stinky backwater architecture that nobody uses, it is actually rather common in embedded applications as well).

With these also come pricing pressures, after all it is not going to look very good if people just compare the pricing of a Mac & a PC with the same processor inside and have the Mac come out twice as expensive. For most people who don't know any better, processor = performance indicator. With the Intel transition Mac pricing has also become a lot more competitive with their PC counterparts. Macs are still more expensive, sure, but today the Mac Price/Mac Performance:PC Price/PC Performance ratio has certainly improved a lot over previous Macs.

Of course, last but not least the darned CPU itself is more expensive, at least for the laptops. For the G5s they might actually be pretty good value, since it is not like IBM is known for cheap solutions, but we won't know for certain until the Mac Pros roll out.

Ultimately? Something's just gotta give, and quite sadly it is the quality of new Macs we get today.

Quite a disgrace really, considering how much a Machead pays for his Mac. But until we know exactly how much money Apple burns on developing and maintaining MacOS, it is actually quite hard to draw a very fair comparison too.

[bbrosemer]

Generik, ... are you saying that the G4 PB is any different from the MBP, the use alot of the same parts, other then the logic board and CPU and RAM well the list kinda goes on, but moreover the problem isnt the case or the anything else other then mostly "there are people with monitor problems" but they existed in the G4 as well that Apple who has nothing to do with building the LB, and CPU is the problem, no no, it is intel, their chips are hot, and their LB's well we have seen have problems, this is not apple's lack of putting money into their componets it is companies such as intel looking for even higher profit margins, Apple is the middle man and so is every PC maufacturer, they all just put together the parts that ou need and they can not build better with bad parts, the monitor issues I think need to be adressed but everthing else for the most part "problem wise" they dont have much control over, and the only difference is the only 2 compaines for the most part that you will even see using Core 2's in their Laptops are Lenevo and Apple Gateway too probably, everyone else has made the switch to AMD or will be, there will be once again nothing to compare to Core 2 to other then the Lenevo which will also be a high priced laptop and this will become the only other company that will still be in the Merom market.

[playaj82]

During the G4 days, nobody really knows how much Apple's hardware really cost to produce. After all they are running largely custom engineered solutions, and they can always claim R&D for their products to be $0 or $100 billion if they so desire, not that it'd be hard to denounce their inflated figures, but it is certainly not as easy now.

There was even word that a G4 1.67Ghz processor only costed Apple US$74 back in the day. This processor is used in a $2000 computer. The beauty of it all? Since there were no equivalent alternatives, Apple can pretend the PPC architecture is so superior that their 1.67Ghz PBG4 is priced equivalently to a 2Ghz Centrino PC laptop.

My guess is that Apple, Motorola, and the analysts knew how much the hardware cost to produce. And inflating figures is not the greatest business model or ethical way to keep customers.

Also, you have an 867mhz G4 in a 1" enclosure it creates (X) degrees of heat. You put in the 1.5Ghz G4 in a 1" enclosure, it creates (X+) degrees of heat. Quite a significant difference between someone upgrading from a 2Ghz Centrino to a 2.4Ghz P-4 Mobile. It isn't quite as simple as just the price of the chip, that chip has to go somewhere, and sometimes adjusting a design adds cost.


Is it overpriced? Yes. Do people know better? No. At least they didn't know until a point when Apple can't pretend any longer and the cat is let out of the bag.. hence we have the Intel transition.

Today analysts can simply take a Macbook Pro, strip it down to its parts, and calculated exactly how much it costs Apple to produce one of such devices. The parts of the intel processor, the chipset, and more importantly, the cost of the talent needed to engineer one of these board solutions, are all pretty much common knowledge to the people in the industry. At least more common than the PPC world (that said I should of course say that the PPC is not a stinky backwater architecture that nobody uses, it is actually rather common in embedded applications as well).


If we applied this logic to the car industry, nobody would buy a BMW, Audi, Lexis, or Mercedes because when you boil it down to the raw cost to produce, people are getting fleeced.



With these also come pricing pressures, after all it is not going to look very good if people just compare the pricing of a Mac & a PC with the same processor inside and have the Mac come out twice as expensive. For most people who don't know any better, processor = performance indicator. With the Intel transition Mac pricing has also become a lot more competitive with their PC counterparts. Macs are still more expensive, sure, but today the Mac Price/Mac Performance:PC Price/PC Performance ratio has certainly improved a lot over previous Macs.

Of course, last but not least the darned CPU itself is more expensive, at least for the laptops. For the G5s they might actually be pretty good value, since it is not like IBM is known for cheap solutions, but we won't know for certain until the Mac Pros roll out.

Ultimately? Something's just gotta give, and quite sadly it is the quality of new Macs we get today.

Quite a disgrace really, considering how much a Machead pays for his Mac. But until we know exactly how much money Apple burns on developing and maintaining MacOS, it is actually quite hard to draw a very fair comparison too.

Can't we just let the "more expensive" argument die out already. Everyone has their own argument about software/hardware/value/quality....blah blah blah. The point is that people have a choice now. Computer are three times less expensive than they used to be 5 years ago, they last about twice as long, and everyone can justify spending money on one because they need one.

If you are telling me that someone will never be able to buy a $1400 computer versus a $1200 computer because they "can't afford it", then you are right.

I still remember buying a Pentium III Dell with a 17" CRT monitor for over $2000.

Regarding quality control, you should never buy the first revision of ANYTHING. It isn't like 1 in 5 MacBooks or MacBook Pros are showing up DOA. They run hot, may make funny sounds, oh well. If you are worried about these problems, then don't buy one. But there are thousands of people who don't care.

The only thing giving right now is the expectation that Apple is this perfect company. Apple is anything but perfect, but at least they try.

[generik]

If we applied this logic to the car industry, nobody would buy a BMW, Audi, Lexis, or Mercedes because when you boil it down to the raw cost to produce, people are getting fleeced.


I pretty much agree with what you've said, except for the car analogy... the difference is that for the brand name cars you've mentioned, well, those cars are all actually better engineered than your garden variety Hondas or Toyotas.

You see, for luxury cars, not only do..

1) they look good
2) but they also perform better
3) and let's not leave out the nice leather seats
4) and the smoother ride
5) and last but not least, hey, for the BMWs they are PowerPC powered for ultimate engine performance!

You can probably do 180mph in a Mercedes on an autobahn and the car will still purr along dutifully, but do that with a consumer car and not only will the engine be howling like some wild injured animal, but the entire car will probably be vibrating like it is going to disintegrate at a moment's notice.

That's the difference.

I won't say that for the MBP there aren't any innovations, sure there are. The backlit keyboards are brilliant, and autosensing LAN adaptors are clever too for the Mac using networking.. guy, same with the Magsafe connector. But it pretty much ends there.

Barring the whine, you pretty much still have that toasty wrist rest and sweaty palm from using the machine, you will still get funny noises when you load in a CD (god forbid if you load in a *scratched* CD!), and yes, unfortunately for what it is worth, similar components using on PC generally performs the same on a Mac. By that I mean..

.. a 2Ghz Core Duo on a PC is pretty much the same as on a Mac
.. ditto for the X1600Pro (actually it is underclocked on the Mac, so it performs worse)
.. same goes for the hard drive performance
.. and everything else..

Hence here is where the car analogy falls apart, the engines in a BMW would actually outpace your normal non premium engines, and similarly a Mercedes would do pretty much the same too, at even better.. comfort levels.

Of course, what the analogy also fails to address is that a luxury car probably costs 10X more than a normal family sedan, and a Mac would generally at worse cost only 50% more than an equivalent PC counterpart.


Can't we just let the "more expensive" argument die out already. Everyone has their own argument about software/hardware/value/quality....blah blah blah. The point is that people have a choice now. Computer are three times less expensive than they used to be 5 years ago, they last about twice as long, and everyone can justify spending money on one because they need one.

If you are telling me that someone will never be able to buy a $1400 computer versus a $1200 computer because they "can't afford it", then you are right.

I still remember buying a Pentium III Dell with a 17" CRT monitor for over $2000.


Regarding quality control, you should never buy the first revision of ANYTHING. It isn't like 1 in 5 MacBooks or MacBook Pros are showing up DOA. They run hot, may make funny sounds, oh well. If you are worried about these problems, then don't buy one. But there are thousands of people who don't care.

The only thing giving right now is the expectation that Apple is this perfect company. Apple is anything but perfect, but at least they try.

Why shouldn't you buy the first revision of anything?

Since we are onto cars, have you ever seen a Rev-B car? Gee, I am going to buy a Toyota Yaris, but it is a new model, never been field-tested, what if the brakes fail on me?! Oh noes!? :eek:

Part of the trouble with Apple is, since their products are always developed in secret, the customers are essentially going to be their field beta testers. There engineers might have a go at the prototypes in their labs before they finalised the design, but hey, that's probably at most what, 100-200 people max?

IMO, I don't particularly enjoy seeing Apple getting the kind of PR they'd get when they launch lawsuits like.. the recent Asteroid case, but herein lies the deeper issue.

You see, unlike other manufacturers, Apple actually likes to fleece you big time, max possible. What do I mean by that?

So let's suppose I go to Dell's website today, I don't have to worry that "a new revision is coming out tomorrow", why is that so? Because last month a E1505 might have been $1699, today it might have dropped to $1599. What more if I find it expensive I can probably put in a slower processor for cheaper.

For other manufacturers product revision cycles are a continuum, an evolution that is constantly in progress. For Macs it is more like a quantum stop/go/stop/go process. Woe to those who just got their machines shortly before the "go"

That is something that I personally don't like, and in fact if Apple were to adopt a more.. how should I call it.. norminal way of pushing out new products perhaps there'd be less obsession about what they are trying to keep so damned secret in their labs.

What would you prefer to see, the current system where models get priced at a fixed rigid price point until the next revision ticks in, wherein they get replaced by better models priced at the same rigid price point, or a system where products gradually just slowly move out of the limelight, and down in price.. and just gradually disappear.

Somehow the latter appeals to me more, in fact I can't see why anyone would prefer the former, apart from Apple.

[playaj82]

I pretty much agree with what you've said, except for the car analogy... the difference is that for the brand name cars you've mentioned, well, those cars are all actually better engineered than your garden variety Hondas or Toyotas.



I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the car analogy.

I'm not comparing a Toyota to a BMW, just like I'm not comparing a Celeron to a core Duo.

I'm talking about why people pay for the markup on these vehicles.

Everyone knows that people who buy a BMW are paying a higher premium over total Cost to Produce than a person who buys a Hyundai.

(Hypothetical)
BMW - Markup 20%
Hyundai - Markup 5%

The quality difference is significant, but at the same time, why should BMW have a 15% higher markup.

Do people think the brand name is worth more? Did they get a special service package? What extra value is assigned?

Compare this with computers
I can buy a bottom of the barrel dell computer where they have extremely tight profit margins and use lower quality components. I'm getting what I pay for if it doesn't work out.

Or....

I can choose between a high end Dell and a Mac Book Pro. Apple probably has a higher markup even though the Dell has the same components, but Apple has something else that appeals to consumers greater than just the cost to produce.

I'm not trying to put forth the "Mac better than Windows" but each consumer has their own reason. Maybe an Apple store is close to someone's home, maybe they don't want viruses, maybe they want Apple support, maybe they want OS X, maybe......infinite reasons.

The point is that people pay the $100 or $200 difference in price for the Apple computer over the Dell with the same components for any number of reasons. It isn't because they are stupid or getting fleeced by buying a more expensive product.

The best car analogy I can come up with here is buying a Toyota Avalon or a Lexis ES330. Same parent company, practically same parts, same engine, both reliable and great cars. This begs the question as to why someone would buy the Lexis over the Toyota when the Toyota is cheaper.

This is the same reason why someone buys an Apple over a Dell/IBM/Gateway or any other manufacturer of computers who might sell something with similar innards for a little less money.

[bbrosemer]

I pretty much agree with what you've said, except for the car analogy... the difference is that for the brand name cars you've mentioned, well, those cars are all actually better engineered than your garden variety Hondas or Toyotas.


Hell no id much rather crash in a Honda, Honda's are a great car, O wait maybe an Acura is somehow better becasue you pay 10,000 more well its not or a Lexus they are the same damn cars price means nothing with cars its all a scam, cars cannot be compared to computers, I could get in a Hynduai crash and die I get into a BMW the same thing could happen, its such a stupid comparsion to begin with, just leave it at Honda's are good cars thats all I have to say, Id take a free honda over a free BMW any day, and well see which last 200,000 miles from now.

[poppe]

Hell no id much rather crash in a Honda, Honda's are a great car, O wait maybe an Acura is somehow better becasue you pay 10,000 more well its not or a Lexus they are the same damn cars price means nothing with cars its all a scam, cars cannot be compared to computers, I could get in a Hynduai crash and die I get into a BMW the same thing could happen, its such a stupid comparsion to begin with, just leave it at Honda's are good cars thats all I have to say, Id take a free honda over a free BMW any day, and well see which last 200,000 miles from now.

Honda's are great cars but they are made out of like pure aluminum (not really). I was once driving behind a Honda Prelude. Infront of the prelude was Hyundai Tiburon. We were coming to a traffic light going around mid 30's when the Tiburon slammed on its breaks. The the prelude smashed in to the back of the Tiburon ( I stopped in time).

Results of crash: Tiburon's muffler fell of and had a small to medium dent in bumbper. Prelude's engine was totaled.

Oh and If you look there are many BMW's that are easily in the 200,000 mile range, just as honda. If BMW flooded the market more perhaps we could see a better comparison... oh and those BMW's are still running strong. Many Honda's make it to 200,000 some running amazing, but alot having cosmetics falling off to crap (engine wise still decent yes).

[QCassidy352]

The best car analogy I can come up with here is buying a Toyota Avalon or a Lexis ES330. Same parent company, practically same parts, same engine, both reliable and great cars. This begs the question as to why someone would buy the Lexis over the Toyota when the Toyota is cheaper.

There's a much more fundamental difference between a mac and a quality Dell than between the Lexis - only the mac can run OS X. There's no good analogy for this in cars, but maybe transmission type (standard v. automatic) is close.

The transmission type, like the OS, is fundamental. You might not think about it constantly, but it underlies everything you do. If you don't like the kind you have, it's going to be a constant frustration every day, on every task. Some people will drive either a standard or an automatic, and would not pay a substantial premium for one over the other. But if you really love one and dislike the other, it seems like almost any premium would be worth it. After all, if you're stuck with a standard and you really just don't like it no matter how much you use it, it's going to be a problem for the entire life of the car.

just leave it at Honda's are good cars thats all I have to say, Id take a free honda over a free BMW any day, and well see which last 200,000 miles from now.

Bad choice of cars to compare. Hondas and BMWs both consistently rate among the very best for reliability and longevity. In fact, I'd consider a BMW the Honda of luxury cars - fairly common, not that exciting, but extremely well built. My guess is that both would be running quite well after 200,000 miles. :)

[poppe]

There's a much more fundamental difference between a mac and a quality Dell than between the Lexis - only the mac can run OS X. There's no good analogy for this in cars, but maybe transmission type (standard v. automatic) is close.

The transmission type, like the OS, is fundamental. You might not think about it constantly, but it underlies everything you do. If you don't like the kind you have, it's going to be a constant frustration every day, on every task. Some people will drive either a standard or an automatic, and would not pay a substantial premium for one over the other. But if you really love one and dislike the other, it seems like almost any premium would be worth it. After all, if you're stuck with a standard and you really just don't like it no matter how much you use it, it's going to be a problem for the entire life of the car.

Hey I like that.

Stupid luxury cars all stupid automatics... Rather have a manual..

[bbrosemer]

There's a much more fundamental difference between a mac and a quality Dell than between the Lexis - only the mac can run OS X. There's no good analogy for this in cars, but maybe transmission type (standard v. automatic) is close.

The transmission type, like the OS, is fundamental. You might not think about it constantly, but it underlies everything you do. If you don't like the kind you have, it's going to be a constant frustration every day, on every task. Some people will drive either a standard or an automatic, and would not pay a substantial premium for one over the other. But if you really love one and dislike the other, it seems like almost any premium would be worth it. After all, if you're stuck with a standard and you really just don't like it no matter how much you use it, it's going to be a problem for the entire life of the car.



Bad choice of cars to compare. Hondas and BMWs both consistently rate among the very best for reliability and longevity. In fact, I'd consider a BMW the Honda of luxury cars - fairly common, not that exciting, but extremely well built. My guess is that both would be running quite well after 200,000 miles. :)
I didnt do the comparing someone else tried to so I got mad no honda trashing...

[vv-tim]

are you saying that you can order a new screen from dell for your laptop that will run at 1920x1200?

Yes, that's what I'm saying... as long as your original screen as either 15.4" or 17".

[vv-tim]

if you're going to compare a dell notebook with a macbook pro, the *closest* specc'd machine is the m1710.

this whole thread underlies the point that there are no exact same products from the two companies which you can then price compare.

How do you figure that the M1710 is the closest specced machine to a 17" MBP?
It adds no additional features missing from the E1705 that are found on a 17" MBP. The only advantages in a M1710 over the E1705 are mostly cosmetic (except for the Geforce GTX 7900 option, 667mhz ram which can be purchased at newegg, and the 9-cell battery).

So, other than ridiculously overpricing the M1710, what makes it closer to the MBP? I could see you grasping at straws for the M1210 since it has a webcam, but come on...

[j26]

A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

I don't have a MacBook or MBP. I just don't like inaccuracies. It makes me question the nature of the posts I'm reading - they're either sloppy in which case they should be discounted, or disingenuous, in which case they should be ignored.

[user23]

Originally Posted by vv-tim
A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.


cite sources. Nowhere on Apple's site does it say what you are suggesting. I do see the following: "15.4-inch (diagonal) TFT display, support for millions of colors; Optional glossy widescreen display"

Dithering looks like crap. When I look at my MBP display, I see excellent contrast & color representation. When I output design work I've done on an imaging device, lo & behold, it reflects precisely what I've seen on the screen.

[vv-tim]

cite sources. Nowhere on Apple's site does it say what you are suggesting. I do see the following: "15.4-inch (diagonal) TFT display, support for millions of colors; Optional glossy widescreen display"

Dithering looks like crap. When I look at my MBP display, I see excellent contrast & color representation. When I output design work I've done on an imaging device, lo & behold, it reflects precisely what I've seen on the screen.

Reboot into Windows. The ATI drivers for Windows have a set dithering filter so it's much more obvious. From the discussions we've had about the issue on several other boards, we believe that the display drivers for Mac OS X change the dithering consistently so that it is less obvious. However, it is still evident that dithering is going on. Look at a solid color background. The (ever so slight in MacOS X) blotchiness is dithering.

Obviously, Apple isn't going to ADVERTISE that they use dithering to get millions of colors. Dell doesn't advertise it either. In fact, on the E1405 with the 1440x900 display it looks absolutely horrendous. The "sparkling" effect on white backgrounds made me get rid of it almost two weeks later.

[poppe]

What is dithering

[dejo]

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.

You only need 20 bits to support millions of colors. 2^20 = 1,048,576.

[dejo]

What is dithering

Digital photography and image processing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithering#Digital_photography_and_image_processing)

[generik]

Is it an issue with the integrated LCD panel or with MacOS itself?

What happens if I hook up an external monitor?

[generik]

You only need 20 bits to support millions of colors. 2^20 = 1,048,576.

That's "million" not "millions" :p

[dejo]

That's "million" not "millions" :p

Oops, you're right. My bad. :o

2^21 then! :D

[poppe]

Digital photography and image processing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithering#Digital_photography_and_image_processing)

Thank you.

So what is better than dithering?

[dejo]

Look at a solid color background. The (ever so slight in MacOS X) blotchiness is dithering.

I see no blotchiness on my display. You sure you don't accidentally have your display's color depth set to Thousands?

[seany916]

regarding the crash example above, it is DESIREABLE for the car to mangle up. crush zones absorb the impact of the crash thereby dissipating the energy of the impact. I'll take a car that crunches over one that "is solid" anyday. When the forces reach the passenger well, there is almost always a VERY sturdy cage meant to protect the occupants. Much of the energy of the crash should be absorbed by the crushing of the non-passenger parts of the car. In extreme cases where the impact is significantly high, it does start to matter whether the cage holds. These cases are somewhat a rarity.

[poppe]

regarding the crash example above, it is DESIREABLE for the car to mangle up. crush zones absorb the impact of the crash thereby dissipating the energy of the impact. I'll take a car that crunches over one that "is solid" anyday. When the forces reach the passenger well, there is almost always a VERY sturdy cage meant to protect the occupants. Much of the energy of the crash should be absorbed by the crushing of the non-passenger parts of the car. In extreme cases where the impact is significantly high, it does start to matter whether the cage holds. These cases are somewhat a rarity.

Very correct. But at 35 to have a totaled engine for a tailgating accident... I mean seriously... But honda's are very reliable cars that is sure. And this was extremely rare. But a more close example is just how my sister honda at 100,000 miles is working great engine wise, but paint is peeling, everyything is cracking up, seats won't adjust (perhaps a lemon).

[vv-tim]

I see no blotchiness on my display. You sure you don't accidentally have your display's color depth set to Thousands?

You have to have good eyes to see it in Mac OS X. Posting a screenshot doesn't help though, since dithering is done between the GPU and the display. The screenshots you take will be at the color depth specified.

It is a limitation of most LCDs due to the slower pixel response times.

http://compreviews.about.com/od/multimedia/a/LCDColor.htm

That gives a good explanation about why LCDs use dithering.

I'm assuming Mac OS X's video driver is applying a much better algorithm than Windows' driver.

[dejo]

You have to have good eyes to see it in Mac OS X.

So, if I don't have really good eyes, it doesn't matter? I'm okay with that.

[JMG]

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo




CARES?!?!?!

[generik]

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo




CARES?!?!?!

The people who buy the Macbook Pro, namely the Pros!

[nickelbackmac]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration* :eek:



1: Dells are hideous

2: Even when I see an older Mac next to my Dell, I get jealous (Even if my 17" Inspiron is compared to a 12" iBook!)

3: It's a Mac

4: The Apple light glows, but Dell's circle doesn't

5: Wireless is standard

6: I could go on on and on

[kumbaya]

Yes, that's what I'm saying... as long as your original screen as either 15.4" or 17".

cool, that's good to know!

[kumbaya]

How do you figure that the M1710 is the closest specced machine to a 17" MBP?
It adds no additional features missing from the E1705 that are found on a 17" MBP. The only advantages in a M1710 over the E1705 are mostly cosmetic (except for the Geforce GTX 7900 option, 667mhz ram which can be purchased at newegg, and the 9-cell battery).

So, other than ridiculously overpricing the M1710, what makes it closer to the MBP? I could see you grasping at straws for the M1210 since it has a webcam, but come on...

closest specced in the sense that m1710 has a bunch of stuff which e1705 doesn't have - just like the MBP

they both have loads of extras when compared to e1705. not the same extras, but extras nevertheless.

it is therefore *closer* to being a comparable computer

hey let's throw in another analogy to illustrate my point.

let's compare three houses:

one has a jacuzzi (MBP)
one has a sauna (m1710)
one has neither (e1705)

when comparing, which houses are more comparable?

that's the point i'm making.

features = benefits and functionality = increased price

you pay for what you get.

[vv-tim]

closest specced in the sense that m1710 has a bunch of stuff which e1705 doesn't have - just like the MBP

they both have loads of extras when compared to e1705. not the same extras, but extras nevertheless.

it is therefore *closer* to being a comparable computer


Not when the features of the M1710 are completely useless to EVERYONE. Glowing LEDs that can change colors have absolutely no point. I guess if you stretch it you can say that's comparable to the glowing Apple (which I might add is a complete joke -- Apple just made part of the casing translucent -- I do like it, but it's not a "feature").

The 667mhz RAM can be purchased and installed easily on the E1705 as well as the extended life battery.

So really the only thing that separates the M1710 is the Geforce GTX 7900 and the ugly case with glowing leds.

Your comparison would be better like this:

MBP: Jacuzzi
M1710: Bath tub with lights built in
E1705: Bath tub

All of them are going to get you clean just as well as the others.

[poppe]

So in all this discussion of Dithering. What is the other option and who has it better? Wasn't that why dithering was brought up because its not that great?

[vv-tim]

So in all this discussion of Dithering. What is the other option and who has it better? Wasn't that why dithering was brought up because its not that great?

It was brought up because someone listed the "millions of colors" blah blah as a Mac selling point over the Dell.

The other option is either a fast response time display (expensive) or a display with slow response time that has ghosting. Either of those can use 8-bits per color. Ghosting used to be a big problem on laptop screens because its tougher to give laptop screens the higher voltage needed for the fast pixel response times of desktop LCDs. Dithering was used to improve response time and get rid of ghosting.

[kumbaya]

Not when the features of the M1710 are completely useless to EVERYONE. Glowing LEDs that can change colors have absolutely no point. I guess if you stretch it you can say that's comparable to the glowing Apple (which I might add is a complete joke -- Apple just made part of the casing translucent -- I do like it, but it's not a "feature").

The 667mhz RAM can be purchased and installed easily on the E1705 as well as the extended life battery.

So really the only thing that separates the M1710 is the Geforce GTX 7900 and the ugly case with glowing leds.

Your comparison would be better like this:

MBP: Jacuzzi
M1710: Bath tub with lights built in
E1705: Bath tub

All of them are going to get you clean just as well as the others.

As a laptop designed for gamers, I'm assuming Dell would have selected quality components throughout the laptop to ensure that no bottlenecks remained to impact on gaming benchmarks.

E1705 specced out to equivalent of M1710 specced out to 17" MBP:
E1705 misses only a higher capacity battery now that both E1705 and M1710 can be fitted with nVidia 7900 GS 256MB:

E1705: $1833
M1710: $2919
17" MBP: $2848.

Dell is charging $1086 more just for flashing lights? Shurely shome mishtake??

PS It's interesting that options for RAM at 667MHz have been added to E1705 online store during the course of this discussion...

Big Brother Michael is watching you...:eek: :p :)

[j26]

A Dell laptop can drive external displays as well. It's all about the GPU. The E1505 gets SXGA+ (1680x1050) if you configure it as such. It only takes custom upgrades (which you can order from Dell) to get the 1920x1200.

And just so you know... your MacBook/MacBook Pro does NOT run at "millions of colors". They use dithering to get 24/32bit color.


Nice distraction you're on talking about millions of colours, to hide the fact that you're wrong about the display resolutions.

I wonder is anything you're saying accurate.

Troll.

[Abstract]

That's retarded.

Point at his shirt, then point at someone who has a much nicer or uglier shirt, and mention that the cost of production, along with the overall benefit of one over the other, is likely worth only $1, and yet the cost difference may be 10000%. Why? Because we never buy anything based on just technical stuff alone.

And the only thing the E1505 has that the MBP doesn't is free anti-virus software. :p *high fives*

[vv-tim]

Nice distraction you're on talking about millions of colours, to hide the fact that you're wrong about the display resolutions.

I wonder is anything you're saying accurate.

Troll.

Care to point out where I was wrong about the display resolutions?
At least quote me somewhere.
You are the epitomy of a troll.

[vv-tim]

As a laptop designed for gamers, I'm assuming Dell would have selected quality components throughout the laptop to ensure that no bottlenecks remained to impact on gaming benchmarks.


Dell uses all the same components for their laptops. The only difference is the case. The flashy design (and the ability to have a Geforce 7900 GTX) is what woos the gamer's heart.

If you want higher quality gamer laptops, Dell bought Alienware to provide you with that ;)

Nice to hear that Dell's offering 667mhz ram on the E1705 though. They're still probably overcharging for it (like the $800 difference between 4GB of 533/667 ram, haha).

[j26]

Care to point out where I was wrong about the display resolutions?
At least quote me somewhere.
You are the epitomy of a troll.

Look back at post no. 140 which summasises it (it quotes you btw).
You said the MacBook only supports 1280x800, whereas Apple says that it supports 1920x1200. Not a difficult thing to find out, but rather than concede the point you move on to irrelevancies about dithering (which I doubt, but don't have the full specs to contest) and millions of colours (again, doubtful, but I remain to be PROVED wrong). I'm not trolling, merely pointing out an inaccuracy in your argument, and accusing me of trolling will not get you out of that inaccuracy.

If you make assertions back them up, otherwise you are trolling.

[poppe]

So not to get of screen resolution and all, but Fry's had a sale for RAM with 800mhz 2 gigs for 169. Who uses 800mhz? like company wise.

[zap2]

One..his price are off by a few hundred(its more like 1280 plus tax vs 2100 plus tax)

two- My friend just got a Dell 17'' 1705(same line just with a 17'' screen) and it had some trouble pickung up the internet, when my iBook did it just fine.

three-MacBook Pro is much smaller the 17'' Dell(so it likly its the same with the 15'') My iBook G4's lid closed is thinner then the Dell's lid open.

four-Mac OS X, FrontRow ,iLife ect

[poppe]

One..his price are off by a few hundred(its more like 1280 plus tax vs 2100 plus tax)

two- My friend just got a Dell 17'' 1705(same line just with a 17'' screen) and it had some trouble pickung up the internet, when my iBook did it just fine.

three-MacBook Pro is much smaller the 17'' Dell(so it likly its the same with the 15'') My iBook G4's lid closed is thinner then the Dell's lid open.

four-Mac OS X, FrontRow ,iLife ect

Mac OS X and iLife are nice, but front row to me needs alot of work... Media Center works just as well if not beats front row. Perhaps not so good looking as front row, but works a whole lot better (from what I've seen).

[jaduffy108]

It is cloes in config/ just go to dell and try it yourself you get an 80gb HD with the Dell for $1,085 however it is still windows.

### Well..if this is true...I will buy the Dell in a heartbeat! Same graphics performance??? There's no way ANYONE could convince me that OS X and sheer VANITY regarding looks is worth that much difference in price. Glad I saw this thread. I truly can't comprehend the "logic" in some of these posts. wow.


peace

[vv-tim]

Look back at post no. 140 which summasises it (it quotes you btw).
You said the MacBook only supports 1280x800, whereas Apple says that it supports 1920x1200. Not a difficult thing to find out, but rather than concede the point you move on to irrelevancies about dithering (which I doubt, but don't have the full specs to contest) and millions of colours (again, doubtful, but I remain to be PROVED wrong). I'm not trolling, merely pointing out an inaccuracy in your argument, and accusing me of trolling will not get you out of that inaccuracy.

If you make assertions back them up, otherwise you are trolling.

I was referring to the LCD panel of the laptop, not external displays, which would be obvious to pretty much anyone -- except you, obviously. 13.3" displays are purely 1280x800. No other resolution is made in 13.3" form factor.

You, sir, are not only a troll, but one that doesn't even realize he is one. I pity you.

### Well..if this is true...I will buy the Dell in a heartbeat! Same graphics performance??? There's no way ANYONE could convince me that OS X and sheer VANITY regarding looks is worth that much difference in price. Glad I saw this thread. I truly can't comprehend the "logic" in some of these posts. wow.


peace

The price/performance ratio of a Dell is much better, no doubt.

Honestly, I chose the Apple over the Dell, but only because I had the money at the time. I enjoy OS X much more than Windows (except for gaming) but the price difference is really hard to justify. Good thing I'm not married yet :]

[Miguel0019]

Well. This kind of sucks. I did a speech the other day for class on why you should by a Mac. This guy picked a fight with me. I saw it coming, but yeah.

So he comes to class today, and says the E1505 can be had with just about the same specs as the MBP but right now for only $1100 as opposed to $2499. How does one refute that!?

I mean, I would buy the MBP. But how do you convince someone who loves Dell and things that are cheap into buying one?

I am having a tough time with this. When I buy an Apple computer, I usually look for a deal, like the used market or just do the Edu discount. But for someone who goes straight to the source and is incapable of finding deals, what incentive is there to buy a Mac in this Windows world.

Sorry, for going all over the place. I just really wish I had something to come back with. I mean, there is so much more that you get when you buy a MBP over a Dell, but these things don't seem to matter to someone who wants it cheap.

*Frustration* :eek:


I gave that up a long time ago, arguin with windoez users is like arguin with a 3year old, and on top of that they're very cheap. But on top of all that they envy your mac beleive they do, wach out for that guy with the Dell PC, and you'll see he'll end up with a mac sooner or later.

[CrEsTo]

This thread is pointless.

[ColoJohnBoy]

What makes a MBP better than the E1505?

This:

http://www.davidbowie.com/users/eat/apple.jpg