All I here about is Apple and there lack of web browser support. Well, I guess there is really only one alternative: Have Apple create a Web Browser. Wouldn't that solve all of our problems? I mean, I spend about 75% - 90% of my time Web Browsing, and I have to say, it is not the greatest expierience. So, I think we should petition Apple to create us a web browser. They already have the address book, and mail application, all they need is a browser. Not that hard for Apple, considering they have over 10,000 employees. So what do you guys say?
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How about a Web Browser that Works!
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Ensign Paris
macrumors 68000
no,they do not want to damage relations with M$ due to the Office contract running out.
Therefore they wouldn't want to compete with m$ i.
I works OK, iCab works OK, Omniweb works Ok
Therefore they wouldn't want to compete with m$ i.
I works OK, iCab works OK, Omniweb works Ok
evildead
macrumors 65816
good point Ensign Paris
True... the contract is coming to an end and Apple probably wants to stay in good relations with MS. MS makes money on Offic for Mac so ... I dont think they will drop it... plus it would get them in trouble. They all ready may have to make one for Lunix soon.
As for a Apple browser? I would love one. Or at least a new alternative. The ones that are out there now have too many problems. IE5.1 is ass. It wont retain prefrences that I set for it and it get confused about what plugins to use if you have classic on your mac with old verions of WMP. Netscape is ok... but it still needs work. I'm not in to the all-in-one messaging-browser thing. Seems a bit blouted to me.
will Apple make one? I dont know but I hope they do. Even if I dont use it ... myabe it will push the other guys into fixing the problems with the current ones
True... the contract is coming to an end and Apple probably wants to stay in good relations with MS. MS makes money on Offic for Mac so ... I dont think they will drop it... plus it would get them in trouble. They all ready may have to make one for Lunix soon.
As for a Apple browser? I would love one. Or at least a new alternative. The ones that are out there now have too many problems. IE5.1 is ass. It wont retain prefrences that I set for it and it get confused about what plugins to use if you have classic on your mac with old verions of WMP. Netscape is ok... but it still needs work. I'm not in to the all-in-one messaging-browser thing. Seems a bit blouted to me.
will Apple make one? I dont know but I hope they do. Even if I dont use it ... myabe it will push the other guys into fixing the problems with the current ones
remember, you can't expect programmers/designers to just whip up a browser. IE, Netscape, and Mozilla took YEARS of development and trial and error. i doubt someone can start from scratch and build a better browser. especially since us web designers use html catered to netscape or IE
Taft
macrumors 65816
Saying a mouthful...
I think that this is one of the biggest problems with the internet today. At this point all of the web standards are flying out the window. How can standards compete with MS's influence and market dominance pushing THEIR altered standards down people's throaghts. I think its time for the internet community to re-address the issue of standards and try to come up with ones that stick.
Its time for consumers to hold MS to standards that are created with the best interest of the internet and the consumer in mind. Half of the browser war was won not only on marketing, shady deals and pushing IE on consumers, but on issues of compatibility. If Netscape can't render all of the pages IE can and certain pages require IE to view them, who is going to want to use Netscape? These browsers are also pushing opposing standards, not just the client itself. We need to remember that.
Matthew
I think that this is one of the biggest problems with the internet today. At this point all of the web standards are flying out the window. How can standards compete with MS's influence and market dominance pushing THEIR altered standards down people's throaghts. I think its time for the internet community to re-address the issue of standards and try to come up with ones that stick.
Its time for consumers to hold MS to standards that are created with the best interest of the internet and the consumer in mind. Half of the browser war was won not only on marketing, shady deals and pushing IE on consumers, but on issues of compatibility. If Netscape can't render all of the pages IE can and certain pages require IE to view them, who is going to want to use Netscape? These browsers are also pushing opposing standards, not just the client itself. We need to remember that.
Matthew
i'm sure that apple has already researched the technical side of devloping a web browser at least a little. plus they have the mistakes and triumphs of all the other browsers and their history at their disposal.
i wonder just how much a browser by them would upset microsoft... just as long as it's ONLY available on the mac platform. appleworks, mail, and itunes all compete with microsoft products and there hasn't been much of a problem.
and it's not like microsoft spends a lot of effort on the mac ie. for some reason, they decided to make it work and act completely different than the windows version. my two biggest gripes being that you can't choose where inside your favorites to add a new bookmark, and it caches everything into one big archive file. so i'm not able to go in and delete this one file or copy this one file. VERY much a pain when testing new html.
and for that reason alone, it would affect their effort to dominate web development, since after all most sites are optimized for windows ie, then netscape 4.7, then maybe mac ie.....
in order to be successful, apple would need to develop a browser that worked with html, asp, php, etc in the same manner that windows ie does. that, if anything, helps microsoft...
i wonder just how much a browser by them would upset microsoft... just as long as it's ONLY available on the mac platform. appleworks, mail, and itunes all compete with microsoft products and there hasn't been much of a problem.
and it's not like microsoft spends a lot of effort on the mac ie. for some reason, they decided to make it work and act completely different than the windows version. my two biggest gripes being that you can't choose where inside your favorites to add a new bookmark, and it caches everything into one big archive file. so i'm not able to go in and delete this one file or copy this one file. VERY much a pain when testing new html.
and for that reason alone, it would affect their effort to dominate web development, since after all most sites are optimized for windows ie, then netscape 4.7, then maybe mac ie.....
in order to be successful, apple would need to develop a browser that worked with html, asp, php, etc in the same manner that windows ie does. that, if anything, helps microsoft...
I don't understand the OS X browser complaints -- I think OmniWeb is the best browser around. It creates gorgeous pages quickly. What else do you want?
Ensign Paris
macrumors 68000
I bet Apple have one created already for OSX just incase IE pull out.
They just wont release it!
As I also bet they have OSX.1 running on Intel **just** incase Motorola and IBM stop making the PowerPC.
They just wont release it!
As I also bet they have OSX.1 running on Intel **just** incase Motorola and IBM stop making the PowerPC.
I also think that but I think it is as a life preserver in case the company starts to sink. Basically a last-ditch plan to save Apple in an emergency.
AlphaTech
macrumors 601
I don't think that Apple would waste the developers time by going putting OS X onto intel. With the sheer number of peecee hardware choices out there it would be hell on them. They would be releasing updates and drivers left and right for each part that people put into the peecee, or they would have extreme restrictions on the hardware. That last one would drive peecee users away faster then anything else. Just think about it for a second, how many more video cards, network cards, sound cards, and such are out there for the peecee??? Each one has it's own drivers. They even have different drivers for different models in the same line. The sheer number of drivers would keep the developers working overtime far too much, and the rest of what Apple produces would suffer. I would much rather have OS X running stable on my Mac system then to see a peecee based version being produced.
On Apple hardware, it rocks, who knows about the peecee. Also, who knows how many years it would take to port OS X to the peecee (and have it stable).
chmorley
macrumors 6502a
Omniweb
I am hopeful for OmniWeb--it is becoming faster and more stable all the time, and it is clearly the best looking browser out there. It is a little buggy on my TiBook 667, though. Too often it doesn't behave a the way I expect a browser to--e.g., it often doesn't want to let me enter URL's manually. I sometimes find pages it doesn't render perfectly. Things like that.
OmniWeb isn't that far from fantastic, though. Apple could definitely polish it up and make it my first choice quick.
Chris
I am actually using OmniWeb more and more, but still use Mozilla 0.9.8 as my primary browser. It is much faster than OmniWeb (4.1b1) with complex page renderings, and it is more stable (on my machine).
I am hopeful for OmniWeb--it is becoming faster and more stable all the time, and it is clearly the best looking browser out there. It is a little buggy on my TiBook 667, though. Too often it doesn't behave a the way I expect a browser to--e.g., it often doesn't want to let me enter URL's manually. I sometimes find pages it doesn't render perfectly. Things like that.
OmniWeb isn't that far from fantastic, though. Apple could definitely polish it up and make it my first choice quick.
Chris
AmbitiousLemon
Moderator emeritus
i think an apple browser would be one of the best things apple could do to improve apple computing. there just arent any web browsers out there that work properly. as for those of you who are happy with omniweb or ie... jeez you remind me of all the peecee users who are content with their beige boxes. ignorance is bliss i suppose. but if you ever used a web browser on a peecee then you would realize that the macintosh community really is lacking. its embarassing. and apple needs to nip this one in the bud. there is no reason mac users should be suffering like this.
like several of you mentioned apple could gobble up any one of many browsers up there and polish it up quickly. id prefer if the bought omniweb (it shows amazing potencial) but iCab or even a Mozilla derivation would be cool.
i really dont think apple will do this though. not for a long while at least. it just doesnt fit into the current apple strategy and i think apple feels most mac users are just like the ignorant people here who dont realize what good web browsing is.
your browser shouldnt crash on you. your browser should render pages properly every time. there shouldnt be any pages you have to open a different browser to view. your preferences shouldnt get trashed. your plugins should actually work and you should have the same set of plugins windoze users have. pages should load nearly instantly on a fast connection. cached pages should load instantly period.
take a minute and browse a few websites on a windoze box with ie. hate to admit it but its pretty nice isnt it? feel a little embarassed? i sure do. o sure peecee's still suck in too many ways to even list, but the fact that those crumby things can do something as simple as browse the internet better than any mac is just sickening.
you might be happy with ie, but as long as apple depends on microsoft (whoa i spelled that without adding any derogatory little tweaks) to provide mac users with a browser, macs will always lag behind wintel machines in browsing.
::hangs head in shame and walks out of the room::
like several of you mentioned apple could gobble up any one of many browsers up there and polish it up quickly. id prefer if the bought omniweb (it shows amazing potencial) but iCab or even a Mozilla derivation would be cool.
i really dont think apple will do this though. not for a long while at least. it just doesnt fit into the current apple strategy and i think apple feels most mac users are just like the ignorant people here who dont realize what good web browsing is.
your browser shouldnt crash on you. your browser should render pages properly every time. there shouldnt be any pages you have to open a different browser to view. your preferences shouldnt get trashed. your plugins should actually work and you should have the same set of plugins windoze users have. pages should load nearly instantly on a fast connection. cached pages should load instantly period.
take a minute and browse a few websites on a windoze box with ie. hate to admit it but its pretty nice isnt it? feel a little embarassed? i sure do. o sure peecee's still suck in too many ways to even list, but the fact that those crumby things can do something as simple as browse the internet better than any mac is just sickening.
you might be happy with ie, but as long as apple depends on microsoft (whoa i spelled that without adding any derogatory little tweaks) to provide mac users with a browser, macs will always lag behind wintel machines in browsing.
::hangs head in shame and walks out of the room::
eyelikeart
Moderator emeritus
from what I've read in other forums & posts....it seems a lot of u guys are fairly savvy when it comes to hacking the systems and all....why not attempt building your own browser? how hard would it be and what would be involved?
Isn't this what the Omni guys are doing? Building their own browser, and giving it free to us?
(And they are doing a great job at it too)
evildead
macrumors 65816
re: AmbitiousLemon
Well said 🙂
Using SunBoxes and WinBoxes at work, I see the diffrence in browsing. Things that are coded only one way work on PC's and yet when I go home to check it out in more detail... I get a really messed up page. That is really unfortunate. I hope that Apple comes out with a Brower that will fix all the problems that IE and Netcape have. OR at least just add some flavor to the mix.
Well said 🙂
Using SunBoxes and WinBoxes at work, I see the diffrence in browsing. Things that are coded only one way work on PC's and yet when I go home to check it out in more detail... I get a really messed up page. That is really unfortunate. I hope that Apple comes out with a Brower that will fix all the problems that IE and Netcape have. OR at least just add some flavor to the mix.
Ambitious...
Trust me. Getting a Web browser to perform like IE does on the PC is *extremely* impressive.
Remember, Microsoft has got some really good programmers and it took them about 6 years to get it to where it is now.
That being said, the best bet would be for Apple to dedicate a team to building an Apple browser around Gecko from the Mozilla project. I'm sure that it could be made to perform well on OS X with some highly-skilled and dedicated effort.
Of course, that wouldn't solve the issues of having Windows Media Player, Real Media, Shockwave, Flash and other 3rd party/browser hosted apps running well on our favorite platform.
And, it's probably just a matter of time before Microsoft starts exploiting IE as a proprietary tool for delivering and controlling access to the next-generation .NET applications.
Trust me. Getting a Web browser to perform like IE does on the PC is *extremely* impressive.
Remember, Microsoft has got some really good programmers and it took them about 6 years to get it to where it is now.
That being said, the best bet would be for Apple to dedicate a team to building an Apple browser around Gecko from the Mozilla project. I'm sure that it could be made to perform well on OS X with some highly-skilled and dedicated effort.
Of course, that wouldn't solve the issues of having Windows Media Player, Real Media, Shockwave, Flash and other 3rd party/browser hosted apps running well on our favorite platform.
And, it's probably just a matter of time before Microsoft starts exploiting IE as a proprietary tool for delivering and controlling access to the next-generation .NET applications.
OS X on Intel = Yes, a little
Alphatech,
Apple has actually released Darwin for Intel with support for limited hardware. NextStep ran on Intel hardware, so really there is no problem on moving the core OS.
The newer bits, like Aqua have likely been ported, but not optimized in any way due to the lack of Altivec.
This day in age, there's not much technical reason for Apple to maintain a PowerPC-centric code base except for the routines that they want to optimize for a particular hardware feature. And even then, they probably just maintain different forks in the tree. That Altivec stuff isn't going to run on a G3 anyway and it probably makes it hell to test on new processors where there might be a lot of bugs in a particular unit, or changes that could affect things badly. Better to get the basic stuff running first.
The real problem with moving OS X to Intel is that you'd have to ask all the Mac developers, who just spent a fortune porting to OS X and optimizing code for Altivec, to recompile all their stuff for Intel and distribute/maintain two sets of binaries.
Alphatech,
Apple has actually released Darwin for Intel with support for limited hardware. NextStep ran on Intel hardware, so really there is no problem on moving the core OS.
The newer bits, like Aqua have likely been ported, but not optimized in any way due to the lack of Altivec.
This day in age, there's not much technical reason for Apple to maintain a PowerPC-centric code base except for the routines that they want to optimize for a particular hardware feature. And even then, they probably just maintain different forks in the tree. That Altivec stuff isn't going to run on a G3 anyway and it probably makes it hell to test on new processors where there might be a lot of bugs in a particular unit, or changes that could affect things badly. Better to get the basic stuff running first.
The real problem with moving OS X to Intel is that you'd have to ask all the Mac developers, who just spent a fortune porting to OS X and optimizing code for Altivec, to recompile all their stuff for Intel and distribute/maintain two sets of binaries.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
What I look for in a web browser is the right balance of speed (includes page layout and scroll speed), correctness, appearance, bugginess, and stability. Here's how I see things with OS X browsers right now:
- Mozilla 0.9.8: Average speed. Excellent correctness. Okay appearance. Very buggy. Good stability.
- IE 5.1: Average speed. Pretty good correctness. Okay appearance. Kind of buggy. Good stability.
- OmniWeb 4.1 beta: Very slow on pages that are anything more than basic text. Not very good correctness. Hands-down the best looking web browser ever. Kind of buggy. Okay stability (in my experience anyway).
- iCab: Haven't tried
- Netscape 4.7 in Classic mode: VERY fast. Horrible correctness. Poor appearance. Kind of buggy. Good stability.
- Mozilla 0.9.8 in Classic mode: Very fast. Excellent correctness. Nice OS9 appearance. Very buggy. Good stability.
- Opera: Haven't tried
- Lynx: FAST!! CORRECT!! Very simple appearance! Stable as a mofo! This is what we should all be using! 🙂
I'm typing this in OmniWeb at the moment because its fonts make everything easier to read for me (on an LCD). I want to use Mozilla, but it just feels too buggy for me at the moment. The new OS X look is nice, but it still looks a bit hackish, especially with the old Communicator buttons right next to the Mozilla page-load icon, which itself is overlayed on top of a big Aqua button-thing. (What's up with that?) Once that icky look is fixed, and once it starts using Cocoa fonts (if ever), I'd like to switch to it. Unless OmniWeb's layout engine improves.
Ergghh... so many choices.
Alex
- Mozilla 0.9.8: Average speed. Excellent correctness. Okay appearance. Very buggy. Good stability.
- IE 5.1: Average speed. Pretty good correctness. Okay appearance. Kind of buggy. Good stability.
- OmniWeb 4.1 beta: Very slow on pages that are anything more than basic text. Not very good correctness. Hands-down the best looking web browser ever. Kind of buggy. Okay stability (in my experience anyway).
- iCab: Haven't tried
- Netscape 4.7 in Classic mode: VERY fast. Horrible correctness. Poor appearance. Kind of buggy. Good stability.
- Mozilla 0.9.8 in Classic mode: Very fast. Excellent correctness. Nice OS9 appearance. Very buggy. Good stability.
- Opera: Haven't tried
- Lynx: FAST!! CORRECT!! Very simple appearance! Stable as a mofo! This is what we should all be using! 🙂
I'm typing this in OmniWeb at the moment because its fonts make everything easier to read for me (on an LCD). I want to use Mozilla, but it just feels too buggy for me at the moment. The new OS X look is nice, but it still looks a bit hackish, especially with the old Communicator buttons right next to the Mozilla page-load icon, which itself is overlayed on top of a big Aqua button-thing. (What's up with that?) Once that icky look is fixed, and once it starts using Cocoa fonts (if ever), I'd like to switch to it. Unless OmniWeb's layout engine improves.
Ergghh... so many choices.
Alex
AmbitiousLemon
Moderator emeritus
ant: i dont completely agree with your assessment but it seems close enough. Never heard of lynx tell us some more about this browser you are so taken with.
several people have mentioned mozilla's ability to block ads. this sounds great how does one do this? (its probably obvious and im just too tired to find it right now)
im not a fan of mozilla's appearance (who could be) but i dont think its as terrible as most people make it out to be. better than ie in my opinion. one of the first things i did was change the theme to modern. not great but much better than the old netscape style buttons. often i use the purple button (now gray oblong button, why did apple change this?) to just hide the button bar all together. this sint always practical but when i need to type in a url i just click the purple button again and get the button bar back.
someone mentioned mozilla being apple's easiest way of developing an apple branded browser. this is probably true, but i think most of us would prefer an omniweb buyout. id definitely like to see more cocoa apps from apple.
well have have lots more to say and ask but i better get back to the grind...
several people have mentioned mozilla's ability to block ads. this sounds great how does one do this? (its probably obvious and im just too tired to find it right now)
im not a fan of mozilla's appearance (who could be) but i dont think its as terrible as most people make it out to be. better than ie in my opinion. one of the first things i did was change the theme to modern. not great but much better than the old netscape style buttons. often i use the purple button (now gray oblong button, why did apple change this?) to just hide the button bar all together. this sint always practical but when i need to type in a url i just click the purple button again and get the button bar back.
someone mentioned mozilla being apple's easiest way of developing an apple branded browser. this is probably true, but i think most of us would prefer an omniweb buyout. id definitely like to see more cocoa apps from apple.
well have have lots more to say and ask but i better get back to the grind...
chmorley
macrumors 6502a
Mozilla ad blocking
Control-click the ad when it comes up, then select "Block images from this server". This is how I've done it, anyway.
I also would rather see Apple develop OmniWeb. I use Mozilla as my default browser and find it remarkably fast, accurate and stable, but would rather have a Cocoa-based app (which I hope Mozilla will be eventually).
Chris
Control-click the ad when it comes up, then select "Block images from this server". This is how I've done it, anyway.
I also would rather see Apple develop OmniWeb. I use Mozilla as my default browser and find it remarkably fast, accurate and stable, but would rather have a Cocoa-based app (which I hope Mozilla will be eventually).
Chris
Re: Omniweb
There's no reason at all why Apple should `polish up' OmniWeb. The guys and girls at Omni are perfectly capable of doing so themselves. Look at the progress they've made in the past year. Now they are working on CSS support, which was largely lacking so far -- when they get that straight, OmniWeb will become the standard browser on nearly every Mac OS X box without Apple having to `endorse' it any more than they do now.
There's no reason at all why Apple should `polish up' OmniWeb. The guys and girls at Omni are perfectly capable of doing so themselves. Look at the progress they've made in the past year. Now they are working on CSS support, which was largely lacking so far -- when they get that straight, OmniWeb will become the standard browser on nearly every Mac OS X box without Apple having to `endorse' it any more than they do now.