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lmalave
Mar 11, 2003, 11:25 AM
Conan O'Brien joked about this, now it's become a reality:

"House restaurants change name for 'french fries' and 'french toast'"

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/sprj.irq.fries/index.html

Rower_CPU
Mar 11, 2003, 11:41 AM
Too bad they're Belgian. :rolleyes:

vollspacken
Mar 11, 2003, 12:15 PM
welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave... can't wait to get back to europe after may's graduation!

- everybody ready for some kraut-bashing? :D

macktheknife
Mar 11, 2003, 12:35 PM
This is so lame. This is no better than what the French did when they tried to change some English-sounding words like "walkman" that crept into their vocabularly to in an attempt to make it more Gallically pure.

This reminds me of a discussion/arguement I had with a man who wondered aloud why immigrants can't eat "American" things like hamburgers and apple pies instead of burritos, fried rice, etc. Nevermind the fact that burritos, fried rice, and other "ethic" foods are merely Americanized versions of the original cuisine: the guy didn't even realize that hamburgers and apple pies were German derivatives. :rolleyes:

lmalave
Mar 11, 2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by vollspacken
welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave... can't wait to get back to europe after may's graduation!

- everybody ready for some kraut-bashing? :D

Heh, I doubt Germans will receive as much hostility because Americans identify with them more. I remember reading a poll where as recently as the early 90's where something like 70% of white Americans identified themselves as being of primarily German descent - which is patently untrue (white Americans are still overwhelmingly of British descent).

Pretty weird, huh? My theory is that even in defeat Hitler brainwashed the world into believing at some level the superiority of the "Aryan race". How else to explain why so many Americans would choose to identify themselves as German instead of the British which they actually are?

Mr. Anderson
Mar 11, 2003, 01:19 PM
The name changes were spearheaded by two Republican lawmakers who held a news conference Tuesday to make the name changes official on the menus.

This is lame that these two Congressmen decided to 'officially' change the names. Let the French be blind to the issues - insulting them is not exactly a diplomatic approach. Taking the high road here shows strength in our resolve to fight our enemies, lashing out makes us look like idiots.

D

macktheknife
Mar 11, 2003, 01:49 PM
Don't take it too seriously, but I couldn't resist:

French kiss - "freedom kiss"
bureau - "freedom chests"
lieutenant - "freedom officer"
bourgeoisie - "freedom middle class"
brassiere - "freedom undies"
repertoire - "freedom performances"
rendezvous - "freedom meeting"
limousine - "freedom cars"
zest - "freedom gusto"
cigarette - "freedom sticks"
lingerie - "freedom panties"

Dont Hurt Me
Mar 11, 2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
Heh, I doubt Germans will receive as much hostility because Americans identify with them more. I remember reading a poll where as recently as the early 90's where something like 70% of white Americans identified themselves as being of primarily German descent - which is patently untrue (white Americans are still overwhelmingly of British descent).

Pretty weird, huh? My theory is that even in defeat Hitler brainwashed the world into believing at some level the superiority of the "Aryan race". How else to explain why so many Americans would choose to identify themselves as German instead of the British which they actually are? I think a lot of this is due to the fact that a lot of germans were getting out of their screwed up country around WWI and WWII. i for one have english,german & french ancestory but am most proud of the English! Go Brits! Seems they are the only ones with common sense other then us Americans. Yes i Drive a Mgb too so take that you French/German Saddam lovers.

Rower_CPU
Mar 11, 2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
I think a lot of this is due to the fact that a lot of germans were getting out of their screwed up country around WWI and WWII. i for one have english,german & french ancestory but am most proud of the English! Go Brits! Seems they are the only ones with common sense other then us Americans. Yes i Drive a Mgb too so take that you French/German Saddam lovers.

Better park that MGB in the "freedom car storage unit" since "garage" is soon to become verböten. ;)

skunk
Mar 11, 2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Better park that MGB in the "freedom car storage unit" since "garage" is soon to become verböten. ;)

As is "verboten".....:)

Incidentally, MG stands for Morris Garages, so you have a bit of a mouthful there!

trebblekicked
Mar 11, 2003, 03:56 PM
this is pathetic. i hate jingoism.

FYI: during WWII, american resturaunts decided to call saurkraut "liberty cabbage".

Eniregnat
Mar 11, 2003, 06:11 PM
Could we do any less to help fight terroism?
What a waste of time.

Les Kern
Mar 11, 2003, 11:53 PM
Raise your hand if you're embarrased to be an American right now. Marge Simpson said "There's no shame in being a pariah". For once Marge was wrong. Heck, I figure since the French helped us gain our independence in 1783, they helped the north in the Civil war, we helped them repel the Germans in and WWII, that we're tied now.
I don't pay those idiots to do idiotic things while in Washington, so I want my money back.
I'm surprised they missed "french-cut string beans". I'll bet some IDIOT will try to rename them "Green Beans Cut In Real Skinny Strips So We Can Feel Like Real Men And Bask In The Media-Driven, Ludicrous Limelight I Call Patriotism"" I'm not kidding... I want my money back.

NavyIntel007
Mar 12, 2003, 12:03 AM
My hands raised!

Anyone read 1984? I suppose we can start calling Vodka "Victory Gin"

I expect this behavior from a child, not a government. I wrote my congressman and the president on this one. I hope that others do the same.

Is there not more important things to talk about in congress? Or should we just forget about that part of our government?

Backtothemac
Mar 12, 2003, 12:27 AM
Is this really that big of a deal? Nothing we as a country have not done before. With the Hot Dog. With Liberty Cabbage, etc.

Just our way of saying that we disagree. Stupid, maybe, big deal, no.

onetime
Mar 12, 2003, 01:25 AM
My hand is raised...

Sure, let private businesses do what they wish, but for our Government to make it 'official' (in House cafeterias) is a ridiculous maneuver that will do nothing more than make the French chuckle and the Republicans a bit more plump from all their jingoistic freedom toast.. I agree, I want my money back.

Trying to avoid political degradation, but I recall how happy a friend was when Republicans fell into all three branches. And for what? Just look at the mess we're in now.

trebblekicked
Mar 12, 2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Is this really that big of a deal? Nothing we as a country have not done before. With the Hot Dog. With Liberty Cabbage, etc.

Just our way of saying that we disagree. Stupid, maybe, big deal, no.

yr right in that it's no big deal; no one will die because of this.

however, it's emberassing, it's xenophobic, it's juvenile, it's everything that grown up people are just not supposed to do. the fact that elected officials are leading the charge is what's so emberassing to me. if it was some little diner in north carolina (like it was two weeks ago) it's just a protest. But when it's a government endorsed show of stupidity, it becomes an emberassment.

skunk
Mar 12, 2003, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by trebblekicked
But when it's a government endorsed show of stupidity, it becomes an emberassment.

Especially as an example of those great American values everybody else in the world is supposed to endorse. "If you're not with us, you're against us. But if you ARE with us, you're a xenophobic moron....."

IJ Reilly
Mar 12, 2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by lmalave
Conan O'Brien joked about this, now it's become a reality:

I believe Tom Lehrer now denies this attribution, but many years ago he was supposed to have said he gave up satirical song writing because after Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize, satire was dead.

That's the problem with satire -- it can become reality if you're not careful.

Les Kern
Mar 12, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Just our way of saying that we disagree. Stupid, maybe, big deal, no.

I believe it is. I'm not sure if we are desensitized by the media, or are the product of the "me-me" 90's, or truly are arrogant bastards. If you step back and really look at the action, and especially read the quote by the mad-man Tom DeLay, most sane folks will agree there's something wrong here, but may not be able to put a finger on the reason. Pound ANYTHING into the head of the poplace, and soon all things seem reasonable. And the damage it does, albiet slowly, to our view of the world and other folks impressions of us, has the potential to do long-lasting damage. So "Freedom Fries" is a blip on America's radar? Blather. You mentioned that it's just our way of saying we disagree. Well why not SAY THAT, instead of the idiots holding press conferences and wasting MY valuable time and tax money with juvenile rantings?
And it really goes deeper than that. This whole thing about the UN being "irrelevant" if they don't agree with us, the quote "with us or against us", saying "diplomacy isn't working" when were not even using diplomacy in the UN, and other mis-guided, hawkish views are served very nicely by blip after blip after blip after idiotic blip.
I still want my money back.

pantagruel
Mar 12, 2003, 03:42 PM
the only funny thing about this is that Frances view on this issue is "it's a non-issue," and "there are actual problems to worry about...."
what country is looking like an ass now? I'll give you a hint, it starts with a capital U.

skunk
Mar 12, 2003, 06:01 PM
I didn't think Uganda, Uruguay or Uzbekhistan were involved here.....:confused:

macfan
Mar 12, 2003, 11:58 PM
This is just a Congressional committee's way of having a little fun at the expense of the French. Not a big deal.

If we want to change the name of "french" fries, we should call them "chips" and put vinegar on them like civilized people do.

skunk
Mar 13, 2003, 04:10 AM
I didn't think you employed your politicians to have fun

IJ Reilly
Mar 13, 2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by skunk
I didn't think you employed your politicians to have fun

Watching our politicians behave in a trivial, frivolous and foolish manner is often all we're actually getting for our money.

macfan
Mar 13, 2003, 12:28 PM
skunk,
I didn't think you employed your politicians to have fun

I find your politicians are usually more entertaining than ours... They certainly seem to have a great deal of fun during the Prime Minister's question time!

And, yes, our politicians have served in part as entertainment since the founding of the country.

Les Kern
Mar 13, 2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by macfan
I find your politicians are usually more entertaining than ours...

Slightly off topic, but could anyone here IMAGINE Bush going extemporaneously before the House like Blair does... I'm sure the phrase "I know what's in my heart" will sound from his lips perhaps a hundred times because, well, his brain sure isn't up to the task. (Snuck in a political remark... shame on me!)

macfan
Mar 13, 2003, 12:43 PM
Slightly off topic, but could anyone here IMAGINE Bush going extemporaneously before the House like Blair does...

Les, I hate to burst the bubble, but the questions in the House of Commons are not extemporaneous. They are prepared ahead of time.

IJ Reilly
Mar 13, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Les Kern
Slightly off topic, but could anyone here IMAGINE Bush going extemporaneously before the House like Blair does... I'm sure the phrase "I know what's in my heart" will sound from his lips perhaps a hundred times because, well, his brain sure isn't up to the task. (Snuck in a political remark... shame on me!)

That thought has often occurred to me as I've watched British PMs getting lambasted by the other side of the aisle. I've often wondered how many US presidents, Bush included, could stand up to that sort of grilling, and the accompanying hooting and jeering. US presidents enjoy a so much more controlled environment. That last press conference from Bush was virtually scripted.

From my limited exposure, I'd say Blair holds up pretty well. Thatcher was a past-master and Major had a way of looking dumbstruck.

skunk
Mar 13, 2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by macfan
Les, I hate to burst the bubble, but the questions in the House of Commons are not extemporaneous. They are prepared ahead of time.

Correction: although a few items are scripted at PM's Questions twice a week, not much of it is. The scripted questions are just for a breather. The rest of the time it's all cut and thrust: that's why most MPs are lawyers. And having watched Junior at his Press Conferences tripping over his platitudes when being "grilled" by your incredibly docile press, I don't think he'd last five minutes over here....:p

GeneR
Mar 13, 2003, 01:58 PM
The move to "freedom" from "French" is just a dumb idea. Probably made up by some lame spin doctor in Washington with too much time on his/her hands. If this is "News"-worthy, it just goes to show how pathetic our news system really is.

If people are taking this move seriously, that too is an indication of how stupid our nation can be. Poop on this idea. It's just smoke screen to keep us emotionally charged and distracted from the fact that we are still waiting for a resolution about this potential war.

Come on. I think most of us are better than this...:D

skunk
Mar 13, 2003, 02:05 PM
We've ALWAYS called them chips anyway. What's weird is that they call English letters what we call French letters!

IJ Reilly
Mar 13, 2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by skunk
Correction: although a few items are scripted at PM's Questions twice a week, not much of it is. The scripted questions are just for a breather. The rest of the time it's all cut and thrust: that's why most MPs are lawyers. And having watched Junior at his Press Conferences tripping over his platitudes when being "grilled" by your incredibly docile press, I don't think he'd last five minutes over here....:p

I can imagine only a couple of our recent presidents being up to it. Clinton with his verbal skills and encyclopedic knowledge; and Reagan, with his quick wit and communications gift. But you are correct, GWB would be quickly reduced to fettuccine.

macfan
Mar 13, 2003, 03:11 PM
From the parliament site:

The Prime Minister answers questions from MPs in the House of Commons every Wednesday from 12.00pm until the end of Question Time at 12.30pm. The Prime Minister therefore answers questions for about two hours a month. This regular and frequent questioning of the Prime Minister is relatively new having been introduced in 1961.

One of the strangest features of Prime Minister’s Question Time now is that many of the MPs put forward the same question, asking for a list of the Prime Minister's official engagements for the day. The reason for this is that questions must be written down in advance in the Order Paper for the day. However, once the Prime Minister has answered that question, the MP is allowed a follow up question which is not written down. An MP who wants to try and surprise the PM with a question therefore puts down a question about the PM's engagements and uses the supplementary question to ask a 'real' question.

In any event, if a really tough question comes up, the PM usually just says "I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago!" --while his own back benchers make noises or apparent derision in the direction of the questioner and the opposition makes similar noises in the direction of the Prime Minister. It isn't very dignified and sounds a little like a barnyard, but it is quite amusing, and I assume that's one of the reasons it is done--to have fun and entertain the press and public with the repartee. That's why I like to watch it from time to time.

IJ Reilly
Mar 13, 2003, 03:22 PM
One notable feature of PM's question time is the full or nearly full house to which it plays. So often I am watching a senator addressing that august body on CSPAN and when the camera turns to the seats, they are mainly empty. I don't find that to be especially dignified.

skunk
Mar 13, 2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by macfan
From the parliament site:


In any event, if a really tough question comes up, the PM usually just says "I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago!"

This is in reply to the "engagement" questions. He doesn't get away so easily on the supplementaries.

lmalave
Mar 13, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
That last press conference from Bush was virtually scripted.


It wasn't just virtually scripted - it WAS scripted. And the press even plays along by raising their hands and acting along. Sickening.

Why do they do this? Because if anyone challenges Bush, in person or in print, their White House press pass is revoked. I gotta hand it to Bush - he pegged the big media reporters for the cowards that they are, and now he's manipulating them expertly.

skunk
Mar 13, 2003, 04:32 PM
Just goes to show, you lot should have a constitutional monarchy like ours, not an absolute one :)

wdlove
Mar 13, 2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
It wasn't just virtually scripted - it WAS scripted. And the press even plays along by raising their hands and acting along. Sickening.

Why do they do this? Because if anyone challenges Bush, in person or in print, their White House press pass is revoked. I gotta hand it to Bush - he pegged the big media reporters for the cowards that they are, and now he's manipulating them expertly.

I believe that to be totally false. We have a free press in this country. That type of White House control would have been leaked. The President's only real control is who he calls upon. Example, he didn't call on Helen Thomas because of her disparaging remarks she made about President Bush. This type of thing occurs in China, North Korea, Iraq, and France.

macfan
Mar 13, 2003, 04:53 PM
Imalave,
The questions were not scripted. The reporters who were called on were scripted by the Ari Fleisher, but they didn't know it ahead of time. They could have asked whatever questions they wanted to ask. Questions are not submitted ahead of time, not even those about the president's daily schedule!

BTW, whose press pass was revoked?

wdlove
Mar 13, 2003, 05:12 PM
Back on subject. Our local radio talk show host Jay Severin "Extreme Games" 96.9 FM told us about a boycott of France. They are totally siding with Iraq. Below is a website that gives products to avoid. This is the only way to fight them. It is already working with the Hollywood Elite. Example Visa has gotten a lot of complaints about the political views of Martin Sheen, they have cancelled his contract. Hopefully the "West Wing" is next. The power of the public is powerful indeed!

http://boycottfrenchproducts.org

IJ Reilly
Mar 13, 2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
It wasn't just virtually scripted - it WAS scripted. And the press even plays along by raising their hands and acting along. Sickening.

A pop quiz:

(1) How many questions did President Bush answer on the economy?

(2) How many questions did President Bush take from members of the foreign press corps?

Les Kern
Mar 13, 2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
It wasn't just virtually scripted - it WAS scripted. And the press even plays along by raising their hands and acting along. Sickening.

Why do they do this? Because if anyone challenges Bush, in person or in print, their White House press pass is revoked. I gotta hand it to Bush - he pegged the big media reporters for the cowards that they are, and now he's manipulating them expertly.

Oh man, I sure agree. Watching Bush stumble through even a scripted press conference, then watching the frightened press toss up softballs actually made me feel physically ill. The glory days of folks like Woodward and Bernstein are LONG gone, now the media is controlled by the very people they are supposed to be reporting on. Media-driven drivel, modeled after a really bad reality TV show. Pansies.

trebblekicked
Mar 14, 2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by wdlove
Back on subject. Our local radio talk show host Jay Severin "Extreme Games" 96.9 FM told us about a boycott of France. They are totally siding with Iraq. Below is a website that gives products to avoid. This is the only way to fight them. It is already working with the Hollywood Elite. Example Visa has gotten a lot of complaints about the political views of Martin Sheen, they have cancelled his contract. Hopefully the "West Wing" is next. The power of the public is powerful indeed!

http://boycottfrenchproducts.org

although i wholheartedly disagree, i encourage all those who find france's position on the issue to be so base as to warrant a boycot to do so, and i wish you luck in your protest.

i would also wish that the passion you show for your cause translates into respect for those who support theirs as they continue to protest the war (as such respect seems lacking today).

"The power of the public is powerful indeed" hmm. not on the issue of the war on iraq. i'd say the power of the public is limited by it's mightiest supporter.

Les Kern
Mar 14, 2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by wdlove
The power of the public is powerful indeed!


Oh great. Some small-minded media guy spouts inanities, most likely to get press, and it's concieved of as a reasonable response to a non-issue. The cycle continues, and soon the masses listen to the memes and start to believe them without analysis because, frankly, Americans are lazy, and we are the result of a the power of misguided press. Step back and take a look, a look without passion and pre-concieve notions. Ask yourself if it really warrants our attention or we're simply being brainwashed. Then step back and look at the whole issue of memes used on Americans to justify this idiotic war. I hope you have the epiphany, I truly do.

wdlove
Mar 14, 2003, 11:29 AM
During our American Revolution it was the 1/3 that wanted freedom, created the Declaration of Independence, War, & our Constitution. It was 1/3 that wanted to stay British and 1/3 didn't care. It is still true today less than 50% vote, only 1/3 uphold our Constitution. I'm proud to be among that 1/3 that wants a strong Constitution, a famous member Conservative talkshow host Laura Ingraham.

IJ Reilly
Mar 14, 2003, 11:58 AM
If you care to have your opinions taken seriously, you'd better find some sources other then radio talk show hosts. I don't care what side of the political spectrum they represent -- talk radio hosts don't provide information, they run circus acts. For the most part, they are professional liars.

wdlove
Mar 14, 2003, 01:50 PM
That's sad that you feel that way, Laura is a very honest true American!

Q: Should we start boycotting all French products in response to their anti-American stance?
Answer Percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - They've gone too far.
94%
No - They have a right to dissent.
5%
Don't Know - Let's see what happens in the UN.
1%
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Votes: 47880

billoreilly.com "We need to protect American citizens"

IJ Reilly
Mar 14, 2003, 02:18 PM
It isn't a question of how I "feel," which is why it isn't "sad" at all.

Les Kern
Mar 14, 2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by wdlove
billoreilly.com "We need to protect American citizens"

O'Reilly? So we proved that his watchers think we should bash France? That's like asking Rush Limbaugh (you know, the idiot) whether his watchers think Clinton should commit suicide. Proves nothing, and you should never believe polls.
I live in a Conservative Republican town, know a LOT of people, and almost to a person they think it's infantile how we're treating France, it's beyond stupid that we're going to war, and actually SEE how Bush's policies are destroying us.
So I guess now we have to bash Germany. No more BMW's! No more german chocolate cake! We can call it "Freedom Cake"! Oh, then there's Russia. No more Stoli?!?! Or should I buy it anyway, rip off the label, and call it "Spirit of 76 Water"? Damn Russkies! How about China? Holy COW they send a lot of stuff over here we can refuse to buy or at least re-name. Oh, then there's the other 50 countries that simply disagree.
And why France exactly? It's easy?
And why is it we're not allowing anyone to disagree with us? Our way or the highway? If that's the case, maybe we ought to leave the UN.
Where's my money?

IJ Reilly
Mar 14, 2003, 07:39 PM
Les,

Somebody needs to write a new self-help book: "Demagogues and the People Who Love Them."

If I had one of these dysfunctional people in my family, I'd sure want to read it.

scem0
Mar 14, 2003, 08:45 PM
this is absurd, but if they want to do this, I'm not gunna stop them.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Les Kern
Mar 14, 2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by scem0
this is absurd, but if they want to do this, I'm not gunna stop them.

"Are we not sheep? Baaaa!" (I think it's an old Devo song)
There's an old saying that goes "Sweep in front of your own door, and soon the whole world will be clean"... but that's a stupid quote really. If everyone settles in to just ignoring the issues and related events, even seemingly minor ones, pretty soon they'll run the risk of the collective good being crushed, and in it's place one might see something they'll be damned sorry they didn't stop earlier. I believe we ARE arrogant bastards, not interested in the brotherhood of man, but rather the proliferation of beliefs that are currently in the hands of fundamentalist nut-cases.

macfan
Mar 15, 2003, 12:37 AM
Les,
I believe we ARE arrogant bastards, not interested in the brotherhood of man, but rather the proliferation of beliefs that are currently in the hands of fundamentalist nut-cases.

Interesting self-analysis, but I rather think it applies better to certain Islamic radicals who think women who walk outside alone should be beaten or killed and that flying planes into skyscrapers is a great way to spread their ideas.

skunk
Mar 15, 2003, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by macfan
Les,


Interesting self-analysis, but I rather think it applies better to certain Islamic radicals who think women who walk outside alone should be beaten or killed and that flying planes into skyscrapers is a great way to spread their ideas.

Flying planes into buildings is surely an act of revenge rather than proselytization, nor are Muslims the only perpetrators of domestic violence.

Les Kern
Mar 15, 2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by macfan
Interesting self-analysis, but I rather think it applies better to certain Islamic radicals who think women who walk outside alone should be beaten or killed and that flying planes into skyscrapers is a great way to spread their ideas.

But our culture had McVie, who killed hundreds with a bomb. He was raised here. We had the Texas incident where Mr. Byrd was dragged behind a truck and killed. Of course there are countless others. But thier actions hardly speak about our culture as a whole. I'll never forgive the hijackers and I admit it's hard to not attach their actions to Islam, but I will continue to fight this in my own mind because it is simply wrong.

IJ Reilly
Mar 15, 2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Les Kern
But our culture had McVie, who killed hundreds with a bomb. He was raised here. We had the Texas incident where Mr. Byrd was dragged behind a truck and killed. Of course there are countless others. But thier actions hardly speak about our culture as a whole. I'll never forgive the hijackers and I admit it's hard to not attach their actions to Islam, but I will continue to fight this in my own mind because it is simply wrong.

An ethical standard that transcends revenge. Now that is a rarity these days.

Les Kern
Mar 15, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
An ethical standard that transcends revenge. Now that is a rarity these days.

Ah, but revenge can indeed be sweet. I'm all for finding those responsible for 9/11, but let's not blast Baghdad and its citizens to bits for reasons that are nebulous at best.
My buddy's 12 year old son saw the 22,000 lb. bomb and said "Dad, isn't that a weapon of mass destruction?" Might doesn't make right, it just makes the victors.

leprechaunG4
Mar 15, 2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Les Kern
Ah, but revenge can indeed be sweet. I'm all for finding those responsible for 9/11, but let's not blast Baghdad and its citizens to bits for reasons that are nebulous at best.
My buddy's 12 year old son saw the 22,000 lb. bomb and said "Dad, isn't that a weapon of mass destruction?" Might doesn't make right, it just makes the victors.
Do you understand the difference between carpet bombing and the current methods of the military. No longer are cities and citizens "blown to bits" Try to be resonable. So a 12 year old kid doesn't understand what a weapon of mass destruction is? Hmm... maybe the parents and teachers should do a better job explaining things to children. Oh and the quote is "Lets have faith that right makes might; and in that faith let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it." Right makes might, not the other way around, but good job badgering the words of one of this nations greatest leaders. He only ended slavery and brought a nation back together, so his words can't mean much can they?

Les Kern
Mar 15, 2003, 09:43 PM
Do you understand the difference between carpet bombing and the current methods of the military.
Oh, so I guess every one of the thousands of bombs we drop will fall right on a member of the Republican Guard. Don't be a fool. You take my words and try to refute them with an insult to my intelligence. Good GOP tactic. They do it so well.

So a 12 year old kid doesn't understand what a weapon of mass destruction is?
It didn't come out in my post, but he was being sarcastic.

"...dare to do our duty as we understand it.
Actually I wasn't using his quote. I was using mine. Now at last you take my position and turn it around and accuse me of belittling Lincoln. Another tactic of the addled. Did you even READ my post to reply to it accurately? What part of "I'm all for finding those responsible for 9/11, but let's not blast Baghdad and its citizens to bits for reasons that are nebulous at best." don't you understand? Where you even replying to my post, or did you mix it up with another one??

leprechaunG4
Mar 16, 2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Les Kern
Do you understand the difference between carpet bombing and the current methods of the military.
Oh, so I guess every one of the thousands of bombs we drop will fall right on a member of the Republican Guard. Don't be a fool. You take my words and try to refute them with an insult to my intelligence. Good GOP tactic. They do it so well.

So a 12 year old kid doesn't understand what a weapon of mass destruction is?
It didn't come out in my post, but he was being sarcastic.

"...dare to do our duty as we understand it.
Actually I wasn't using his quote. I was using mine. Now at last you take my position and turn it around and accuse me of belittling Lincoln. Another tactic of the addled. Did you even READ my post to reply to it accurately? What part of "I'm all for finding those responsible for 9/11, but let's not blast Baghdad and its citizens to bits for reasons that are nebulous at best." don't you understand? Where you even replying to my post, or did you mix it up with another one??
I think I replied quite particularly to your post. It's all well and good you want those responsible for 9/11 tracked down, but if you actually understood the situation in Iraq, you would know that 9/11 is not the purpose of the war. It has a little somehting to do with a cease fire agreement and 17 resolutions not being complied with. Am I trying to use "GOP tactics"? No, but when you make such comments as "blast baghdad to bits" I wil comment on the absurdity of that statement. Will there be civilian casualities? Yes. WIll the city be destroyed? No. There is nothing of your post I "don't understand"

Rower_CPU
Mar 16, 2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by leprechaunG4
...but if you actually understood the situation in Iraq, you would know that 9/11 is not the purpose of the war.

Then why has this administration gone to such lengths to show/create (depending on your POV) connections between Saddam and al Qaeda?

skunk
Mar 16, 2003, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by leprechaunG4
Do you understand the difference between carpet bombing and the current methods of the military. No longer are cities and citizens "blown to bits"

Tell that to the thousands of innocent Afghani civilians blown to bits, I'm sure they'd be relieved to hear about the "current" methods of your military. What planet are you from?

runningman
Mar 16, 2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by macfan
This is just a Congressional committee's way of having a little fun at the expense of the French. Not a big deal.

If we want to change the name of "french" fries, we should call them "chips" and put vinegar on them like civilized people do.
I somewhat agree with this. But with all the other issues involved right now I think they have better things to spend their time on. I think this is some congressman having a little fun at the expense of the taxpayers. Grow up and get the job done that you were elected to do. I think the press is just as much to blame because these yahoos would never have done this if they knew it would get no attention. Like a bunch of 4th graders trying to get the attention of the teacher.

IJ Reilly
Mar 16, 2003, 11:19 AM
It looks like the jingoism machine is going full bore already. Once the shooting starts, you can bet criticism of the Bush policy will be routinely characterized as un-American. We will all be expected to "support our troops" without questioning how they got there in the first place.

War Foe Says Screener Left 'Chilling' Note

SEATTLE -- An airline passenger who had two "No War with Iraq" signs in his suitcase says the federal security agent who opened his luggage inserted a note criticizing his "anti-American attitude."

"I found it chilling and a little Orwellian to have received this message," said Seth Goldberg, 41, of Cranbury, N.J.

Transportation Security Administration officials are investigating.

Goldberg says that after a March 2 flight from Seattle to San Diego, he opened his bag and found a card notifying him that the TSA had opened and searched it.

A handwritten note on the card said: "Don't appreciate your anti-American attitude!"

He said it would have been hard for anyone else to have placed the note because when he claimed the bag in San Diego the zipper pulls were sealed with nylon straps that indicated a TSA inspection.

If a TSA employee placed the note, "we will take appropriate and swift action," TSA spokesman Brian Turmail said Saturday from Washington, D.C.

"That is not appropriate behavior and not within the very high expectations we hold ... and that the American public has a right to expect."

Screeners are trained "in a range of customer service issues ... to assure the security process is polite, professional and appropriate," Turmail said.

Goldberg said he picked up the antiwar signs in Seattle.

"In New Jersey there's very little in the way of protest, and when I got to Seattle I was amazed how many antiwar signs were up in front of houses," he said.

leprechaunG4
Mar 16, 2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
It looks like the jingoism machine is going full bore already. Once the shooting starts, you can bet criticism of the Bush policy will be routinely characterized as un-American. We will all be expected to "support our troops" without questioning how they got there in the first place.
You love to throw around that word don't you. Do you realize how much of a hypocit you sound like. You don't want to be called un-American for not supporting the war (something I never said to you) You don't want to be called un-American for not supporting our troops (something I have more of an issue with as they are risking their lives for your freedoms; I feel you should be suportive of those men and women whether you agree with the current administration or not). Yet even though you don't want to be deemed un-American for any of these beliefs, you automatically label anyone who has a different opinion than yours a jingoist. Just because I have looked into the facts and drawn my own opinion that happens to differ from yours does not make me a jingoist.

As for the article, that proves what? It is one guys accusation of what one other guy did. This makes the article pointless in multiple ways. First, the validity of the story is questionable. It is just one man's word, no true fact. How easily that note could have been scribbled on by the passenger just to try to make this little story. The likely hood to need to buy anti-war signs in a different state is pretty unlikely. I'm sure New Jersey ha splenty of them. If the story is in fact true, then what does that prove? It proves one inspection agent feels that way. How are you going to take one inspection agents point of view and now make that the view of the country.

IJ Reilly
Mar 16, 2003, 01:49 PM
First, I'd never used the word "jingoism" in a post before, and second, this post wasn't directed at you, so there wasn't any reason for you to take it personally. So, essentially, you are way off base in your response.

As for the concept of being expected to "support our troops" against the strong feeling that they should not have been put in harm's way under the circumstances in the first place, I lived though the Vietnam experience, so I know all about it. Believe me, what we are about to go through is not going to be pretty.

MacFan25
Mar 16, 2003, 02:55 PM
I think that it's pretty dumb that people want to call them 'Freedom Fries'. Did the French even invent fries?

leprechaunG4
Mar 16, 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
First, I'd never used the word "jingoism" in a post before, and second, this post wasn't directed at you, so there wasn't any reason for you to take it personally. So, essentially, you are way off base in your response.

As for the concept of being expected to "support our troops" against the strong feeling that they should not have been put in harm's way under the circumstances in the first place, I lived though the Vietnam experience, so I know all about it. Believe me, what we are about to go through is not going to be pretty.
It was possibly somebody else, but the term jingoist was thrown around quite a bit in the political forums just a little bit ago. I believe BTTM was the one who was being labeled a jingoist and attacked. I was not even taking it personally so I was not off base. My point simply was that you don't like ebing called un-American for not supporting the war, so why shoudl you be tossing around the term jingoist because someone does support it. Do you see my point?

As for Vietnam, I did not live though it, but I have researched it, and studied it. I feel that the lack of support for troops during that war was disgusting. Was it a war we shouldn't have been involved in? Yes. I do not feel that Vietnam was soemthing we should have done. That doesn't make it ok for people to have been spitting on vietnam vets though. I have family that died in Vietnam. My pride in what they were willing to sacrifice for this country is not diminished by the fact that I disagree with the war that occured. Simply it disgust me that people can't be thankful for all that our armed forces do for us.

IJ Reilly
Mar 16, 2003, 07:40 PM
It wasn't "possibly" somebody else, it was somebody else.

As to your semantical question, it isn't a matter of what views you express, but how you express them. By dictionary definition, a "jingoist" is:

One who vociferously supports one's country, especially one who supports a belligerent foreign policy; a chauvinistic patriot.

So, do you have any problems with using this term?

Now, as to Vietnam. I don't get where you're coming from with this "spitting on Vietnam vets" thing. Maybe some people actually did that -- I don't remember, but it was hardly the norm of protest. No, what I am talking about is being called un-American for simply expressing the very views you seem to think were correct, opposition to the war. "You mean you don't support our boys who are shedding their blood for our country? Shame on you! You are no better than those Viet Cong. Why don't you go live in China? Our country, love it or leave it!"

And so on. Heard 'em all. And I'm bracing for another round of it. Jingoism.

Rower_CPU
Mar 17, 2003, 01:21 AM
Here's something that ran on the news tonight (can't seem to find anything online yet):

A French woman living in Texas awoke to find her garage door vandalized with the statement "scum go back to france".

Ironically, the woman's mother harbored US troops in WWII.

macfan
Mar 17, 2003, 01:40 AM
IJ Reilly,

Don't try to pretend that jingoism is merely descriptive. "Jingoism" is a pegorative term.

Here's the story on the woman whose garage was vandalized. Probably some idiot kids in the neighborhood.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/1821303

Ironically, the woman's mother harbored US troops in WWII.

So, is that how she came into the world? ;)

skunk
Mar 17, 2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by macfan
IJ Reilly,

Don't try to pretend that jingoism is merely descriptive. "Jingoism" is a pegorative term.

Damn right it's pejorative. It describes a prejudiced attitude. So is "chauvinistic patriot". That's the point.

So, is that how she came into the world? ;)

Care to sink any lower?

macfan
Mar 17, 2003, 02:52 AM
skunk,
A lot of people came into the world after the US sent a lot of young men "over there." Many Americans returned home with wives from foreign lands. Grab a sense of humor!

IJ Reilly
Mar 17, 2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by skunk
Care to sink any lower?

It's a race to the bottom, my friend.

wdlove
Mar 17, 2003, 11:38 AM
There is some controversy over who invented the "fries" Belgium or France. The potato was 1st noted by the Incas in Peru over 2,000 years ago. In the 1700's they were called fried potatoes. Thomas Jefferson had some in Paris. The controversy arised during WW1, they could have been called "Belgium Fries"

http://www.stim.com/Stim-x/9.2/fries/fries-09.2.html



http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/2000/05/02/p18s1.htm