Political Forum Closed / Relaunched [Archive]

Sun Baked

Mar 11, 2003, 11:33 PM

Religion and politics can take a lot of moderator time to keep under control -- and it can chew up a lot of bandwidth better used elsewhere.

They're just topics sitting around waiting for an explosion -- though it is interesting when you visit a site and see it's in low-bandwidth mode, because the political topics got insanely out of hand and chewed through weeks of bandwidth in a couple days. :eek:

Of course that site solved their politics/religion problem by getting rid of their community/general discussion forums. :(

arn

Mar 11, 2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Of course that site solved their politics/religion problem by getting rid of their community/general discussion forums. :(

I'm still deciding where to go from here. Obviously, political discussions will eventually return to community if this is how it stands.

But yes, I feel any debate forum is not a good utilization of resources here... both in terms of bandwidth/cpu as well as human moderation that is obviously required.

arn

arn

Mar 11, 2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Backtothemac
While this is not my site, arn would it have not been better to warn the people that were doing it.

I was going to do that... but as I read through posts... I realized the whole political discussion forum is flawed... so decided to shut down for now.

Backtothemac

Mar 12, 2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by arn
I was going to do that... but as I read through posts... I realized the whole political discussion forum is flawed... so decided to shut down for now.

Well, there were a lot of very good discussions between Jef, me, mcrain, and many others. Maybe you could have a moderator of the political discussions only? someone to keep the attacks in line you know. I got way out of hand a few times in the last couple of days, but the one line spam attacks on me, and others were getting out of hand.

I am just sad because I finally did something with my degrees :)

arn

Mar 12, 2003, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Backtothemac
I got way out of hand a few times in the last couple of days, but the one line spam attacks on me, and others were getting out of hand.

In fact your exchanges with some users were part of the problem. :)

arn

Backtothemac

Mar 12, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by arn
In fact your exchanges with some users were part of the problem. :)

arn

I figured that. I just cannot stand it when people start flaming for no reason. It is really hard not to answer back with a flame.

I am sorry if I was part of the problem. As you can see in the 9/11 memorial thread I have put out an olive branch.

vniow

Mar 12, 2003, 12:24 AM

It was fun while it lasted, a good experiment I guess, I don't know of any other computer related board that had a seperate policics only section......

Some good disussions in there but if it got out of hand then it needed to stop.

GeeYouEye

Mar 12, 2003, 12:51 AM

Dunno if this is a particularly good idea; the political discussion will either move back to community discussion, or all political posts will be closed, taking up time, and HD space when people go complain. Either way, its a lot of hassle for questionable gain. That's not to say that the flaming was right in any way, or that nothing needed to be done about it, but I think that closing the forum was not the best way to handle this.

On another board I frequent, there is a forum which has minimal moderation, and is essentially a cross between Wasteland, Political Discussions, and Community Discussion. If we were to have a similar amount of moderation, it would actually be higher than what we have now, but not that bad. The institution of a few new mods would serve the purpose, as would a warnings/bans utility (do they have that for vBulliten? I know they do for UBB). It might increase bandwidth temporarily, but once people got the message that they could be warned and banned for spamming and flaming, it would likely calm down greatly, especially given how civil the rest of the board is; the other board, people are flaming, trolling, and spamming constantly. Here, we aren't. Believe me, the flame wars here are NOTHING compared to elsewhere, not just, say, the Troll Kingdom (I won't give a URL, but if you do figure it out, do yourself a favor and don't go there, and no, that's not the 'other board'). And there's also very little in the way of trolling here. I've seen other political discussion forums, and even the worst flame wars here barely meet the standards there. Lighten up, arn. This was possibly the most civil political discussions board on the web.

arn

Mar 12, 2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by GeeYouEye
Dunno if this is a particularly good idea; the political discussion will either move back to community discussion, or all political posts will be closed, taking up time, and HD space when people go complain.

As I stated above... I'm deciding where to go with this. Bandwidth/cpu utilization is not a major issue.

The biggest issues involved are time and behavior.

Suggestions are welcome...

arn

Backtothemac

Mar 12, 2003, 01:35 AM

Well, I like the idea of the forum itself. I think having a moderator dedicated to that forum due to the amount of traffic would be justified. Have very, very, very clear rules as to what will be allowed, and what will get you banned.

There were some very good conversations in there, and very good expressions of ideas. I have to say that I have changed the way that I think about some things because of those threads. There were a few people that would insight riots basically.

That was the problem.

arn

Mar 12, 2003, 01:43 AM

The problem is that B2TM, you claim that there are those who would incite problems... but don't see yourself as an instigator. The others don't see themselves either.

For example, this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=21846) - I feel that you initiated the discourse between you and Beatle888. Your response to a reasonable request not to bash france, was for him to "shut up". It degenerated after that.

That doesn't excuse his followup... however, it's not as cut and dry as everyone implies. Besides... who will be moderator. Is it ok if I make Beatle888 moderator? Or Ovi?

arn

Backtothemac

Mar 12, 2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by arn
The problem is that B2TM, you claim that there are those who would incite problems... but don't see yourself as an instigator. The others don't see themselves either.

For example, this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=21846) - I feel that you initiated the discourse between you and Beatle888. Your response to a reasonable request not to bash france, was for him to "shut up". It degenerated after that.

That doesn't excuse his followup... however, it's not as cut and dry as everyone implies. Besides... who will be moderator. Is it ok if I make Beatle888 moderator? Or Ovi?

arn

Yea, I agree sometimes I do. I was not saying for him to actually "shut up", more like a man that is bogus would have been better. It was the point of saying the this is mass murder that I had a problem with. I have served this country, and know the lengths that we go to to protect life. So it was a personal insult to me you know.

As for moderators, it would have to be someone that would not actually be involved in the discussions. Someone that would just keep the attacks down with an open mind.

I would do it. I would give up posting in the political threads so that they could exist for everyone else. So, by that criteria, if Beatle, or Ovi would do the same, then I say sure, let em do it.

Just knowing that they would do it fairly, that would be the key. The key would be to keep personal attacks to a minimum, but also to keep posts that are flamebait to a minimum as well.

arn

Mar 12, 2003, 02:34 AM

ok... experiment #2?

New forum: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=280695

We'll see how this goes. :)

arn

GeeYouEye

Mar 12, 2003, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by arn
The problem is that B2TM, you claim that there are those who would incite problems... but don't see yourself as an instigator. The others don't see themselves either.

For example, this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=21846) - I feel that you initiated the discourse between you and Beatle888. Your response to a reasonable request not to bash france, was for him to "shut up". It degenerated after that.

That doesn't excuse his followup... however, it's not as cut and dry as everyone implies. Besides... who will be moderator. Is it ok if I make Beatle888 moderator? Or Ovi?

arn

Fine, I'll mod it, if you want, preferably with help, since I can't be on all the time (if I could, I'd probably be a 68000 by now). I haven't resorted to personal insults in that forum, though I'll admit to calling arguments BS when they are IMO. Put me, and someone else, either with a clean flaming/trolling record, time to do it, and desire to do it, on it. We'll even help come up with a set of rules if you want, arn.

EDIT: ok nevermind then maybe

arn

Mar 12, 2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by GeeYouEye

EDIT: ok nevermind then maybe

:)

pantagruel

Mar 12, 2003, 07:32 AM

I think you are/have handled this as well as you can arn, thanks for the hard work and hopefully this will aleviate the problems of the past.

Backtothemac

Mar 12, 2003, 09:06 AM

Thank you aren. Thank you. I now have meaning in life again :)

jelloshotsrule

Mar 12, 2003, 09:49 AM

get a person from switzerland to moderate it.... you know... they're neutral and all.

arn

Mar 12, 2003, 11:27 AM

Note: If there is a particular thread you were fond of that you would liked to be moved over to the open Political Discussion, simply private message me with the thread.

Please read the thread to make sure the discussion is appropriate.

I simply didn't want to have to filter them all myself, which is why the new forum exists.

arn

vniow

Mar 12, 2003, 12:56 PM

Hell I'll do it if you really need a mod, I stay out of those things but I do read through them a lot so I'm more neutral than others I guess.

Ahhh.........

WinterMute

Mar 12, 2003, 01:33 PM

Any chance of a personal insult forum?

No...?

I'll get me coat...;)

mymemory

Mar 12, 2003, 05:37 PM

May be the political stuff would work after war or things like that. I have never been inside that forum but things show op other places.

My question regard about something different:

Are we getting too much in to silly topics?

I mean:
"What hair cut do you have"
"What kind of toile paper do you use"

I'm not asking about chaos theory discusions but we may fall in to another place too. All the thread about sh*t are so nasty. remeber this site is readed all around the world and some image shuld be mantain.

That is it.

Thanx.

MrBillGates

Mar 12, 2003, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by mymemory
May be the political stuff would work after war or things like that. I have never been inside that forum but things show op other places.

My question regard about something different:

Are we getting too much in to silly topics?

I mean:
"What hair cut do you have"
"What kind of toile paper do you use"

I'm not asking about chaos theory discusions but we may fall in to another place too. All the thread about sh*t are so nasty. remeber this site is readed all around the world and some image shuld be mantain.

That is it.

Thanx.

I completely agree with mymemory. Some of the non-political topics are really disgusting. I guess the question is : Where does one draw the line?

BG

wdlove

Mar 12, 2003, 09:03 PM

Thank you arn for your understanding. Hope this will truly work with fair exchange of ideas!

Sun Baked

Mar 12, 2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by MrBillGates
I completely agree with mymemory. Some of the non-political topics are really disgusting. I guess the question is : Where does one draw the line?

BG Gross and disgusting usually doesn't start a huge problem between two posters (or more) that can carry throughout the entire site.

Politics and religion are usually topics that can really start a war between people, that carries over to other topics and areas.

If it get's really ugly, multiple sites are involved -- one of the reasons I stopped going to that other site. And when I checked back over the holidays, the fools had eaten up all the bandwidth in a political flamewar that resulted in quite of few people getting booted along with the deletion of the general topics section of the community.

Les Kern

Mar 12, 2003, 10:27 PM

If it's bandwidth or moderator time that's caused this, so be it.
As for the flames, we can use the ignore feature. There are some pretty intelligent folks here that have added to the collective good, and it's certainly worth skinning off the grease to get to it. Nicht War? It's one of the main reasons I come here. Let's face it, asking me what car I drive and listening to visions of nuclear powered Macs is collectively most certainly a bigger waste of bandwidth.

SPG

Mar 12, 2003, 10:53 PM

I'll be the first to agree that some of the passions ran a little high in the political forums, but the majority were able to voice opinions and views in a fairly friendly way. I admit too, that I may have let a poster get under my skin, cough cough ovi, I'd hate to see the whole thing go down because of a few bad apples (no pun intended).
This forum has been especially popular for the political debate for one very good reason...neutral ground. I can go find a ton of left or right sites where I'm either preaching to the choir or getting screamed at by the clergy, but few that have a more or less split population. In fact, out of sheer appreciation for putting up with it this long, I'm throwing down my $20 and signing up for the ad free version right now. Thanks Arn.

cc bcc

Mar 13, 2003, 10:51 AM

Not to stir up the fire, but I've seen some insulting sig's (i.e. attacking countries and peoples with other opinions or different solutions to the iraq problem)

Little things like this make people not feel at home or not accepted. People, please consider this and change posible insulting sigs. Thanks all!

( I hope this post won't also be deleted.. )

Backtothemac

Mar 13, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by cc bcc
Not to stir up the fire, but I've seen some insulting sig's (i.e. attacking countries and peoples with other opinions or different solutions to the iraq problem)

Little things like this make people not feel at home or not accepted. People, please consider this and change posible insulting sigs. Thanks all!

( I hope this post won't also be deleted.. )

Please give an example. While I understand the need for out new calmer approach here in the Political forum, we cannot be completely sterile of emotion, and opinion.

cc bcc

Mar 13, 2003, 12:19 PM

Whether France is wrong or right about things, bashing France really annoys me:

"French tanks have 6 gears. 5 reverse, and one forward - in case they are attacked from behind."

I've seen other sigs like this but I couldn't find them just now, don't remember where I've seen them or who they came from.

I really don't mind political topics, actually I sometimes quite strongly defend my views there. But in the other forums (news etc) I can't reply to those sigs, because those posts will be removed by arn. It's the attitude of superiority and "either you're with US or you're against US" that seems more and more common these days. I'd vote for a ban on insulting sigs, and let the hot debates in the political forum continue.

Pick a nonsense sig like mine! :-D

Stelliform

Mar 15, 2003, 02:02 PM

I would have to aggree with cc bcc. However I don't know how you would police that. I guess all you could do is make a rule forbidding politcal views in your sig. (Like anything refering to a country, policial figure....)

Just a thought....

wms121

Mar 22, 2003, 11:48 AM

yes Apple needs you..

There are too many wintel people in the Government..much less the Pentagon and DoD..that NEEDS these boxes.

Hey..could Hillary and Wesley run sometime soon?

Pick a year...2004...2008...2012..

(General Wesley Clark..not Ensign Wesley Crusher..ask for
personal guidance from Wil Wheaton if you must.. www.wilwheaton.com)

YES they could put a 8540 bus processor on a dual 970 box..and call it a:

G5.5 = 1/2 G5 + 1/2 G6

<---embedded defense engineer working on smurfspace theory

(don't touch that knob Smurfette..!!)

wdlove

Mar 22, 2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by wms121
yes Apple needs you..

There are too many wintel people in the Government..much less the Pentagon and DoD..that NEEDS these boxes.

Hey..could Hillary and Wesley run sometime soon?

Pick a year...2004...2008...2012..

(General Wesley Clark..not Ensign Wesley Crusher..ask for
personal guidance from Wil Wheaton if you must.. www.wilwheaton.com) ****Your site wouldn't WK?****

YES they could put a 8540 bus processor on a dual 970 box..and call it a:

G5.5 = 1/2 G5 + 1/2 G6

<---embedded defense engineer working on smurfspace theory

(don't touch that knob Smurfette..!!)

That would be great if Al could get more Mac's into the government, maybe that is why Steve hired him. Has the inside track!

Hilary is running in '08 unless as the Dem's are hoping that things go badly for the war and the economy. A truly sad plan to win.

Does the site indicate that Clark might run with her as VP?

wms121

Mar 24, 2003, 03:08 PM

the Wil Wheaton URL is:

http://www.wilwheaton.net

ONe of the Wes Clark sites (there are several) :

http://wesleyclark.newstrove.com

www.hillaryclinton.com does not exist...however

You could email her and ask ; )

www.senate.gov

hmmm..if Apple has a 970 motherboard..does it have Rapid IO
or Infiniband or FiberNet? Or all three options? YES that is possible if they are using both 8540's and 8560's and a 970.

Some custom ASIC chips would be needed.

<---is still not sure exactly WHY Big Al jumped on Steve's boat...

Does Tipper know about this yet?

Does Steve's wife do phone soliciting?

Did Grapebunny (macfanatic on yahoo chat) get a grape shake?

(ok a grape slurpee...Cali has "blender foods" from other planets)

the POWER12 is a optical chip ...pass it on...

WW

GeeYouEye

Mar 27, 2003, 10:50 PM

Why was my thread about anti-war protesters (the second one, posted yesterday, not the first) closed? I know it got off to a bit of a rocky start, but I don't think anything in it, especially by the end (unless some posts were deleted, in which case, ignore this post), was particularly close-worthy? At least a note as to why it was closed would have been nice.

eyelikeart

Mar 28, 2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by GeeYouEye
Why was my thread about anti-war protesters (the second one, posted yesterday, not the first) closed? I know it got off to a bit of a rocky start, but I don't think anything in it, especially by the end (unless some posts were deleted, in which case, ignore this post), was particularly close-worthy? At least a note as to why it was closed would have been nice.

Because it was being reported...and lately so much negativity has been spawning from a lot of these discussions...

and my tolerance is getting very limited to it all...so rather than try to alleviate it...I ended it...

my apologies...but it's getting to that point... :(

GeneR

Mar 31, 2003, 08:14 PM

Is politics really the right topic for these rumor boards? I know I've really enjoyed them and I have learned a lot about what's going on in the world, how people think about the war, and about the country, etc. but I am wondering maybe someone else outside of MacRumors.com should start another vBulletin site for political discussion. (???)

Well, anyway, let's see how it goes. MacRumors (I thought) was supposed to be a site dedicated to building community. A non-political forum for Apple enthusiasts... That's just my opinion.

Thanks for all the work, Arn.

BrittasMac

Apr 6, 2003, 07:26 PM

I am in agreement with GeneR. The political forums are ruining this site. The political threads end up spilling over into the other forums in the form of petty flame wars.

It's a pain in the arse for mods.

It results in members hating eachother.

It drives away members.

It doesn't belong on what should be a technology site.

arn

Apr 6, 2003, 08:11 PM

if I could easily eliminate all political discussions I would...

I'd prefer them not to be on this site at all.... however... due to current events, it's a topic on people's minds.

If the political forum was eliminated, I fear all that discussion would be even more prevalent in the other forums.

At this time, political discussions should only take place in Current Events and the Political Forum.

arn

Rower_CPU

Apr 6, 2003, 08:17 PM

Are you considering removing the Political forum once the current situation dies down? Or do you think they still need to be kept separate from the Community area?

I almost think that having a dedicated area promotes more discussion...so if you're looking to scale it back later it might be good to remove the "advertising".

wdlove

Apr 6, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Are you considering removing the Political forum once the current situation dies down? Or do you think they still need to be kept separate from the Community area?

I almost think that having a dedicated area promotes more discussion...so if you're looking to scale it back later it might be good to remove the "advertising".

I also hope that arn will continue the political forum, better since it's in a separate area. Please arn allow us to have the Political Forum! ;)

eyelikeart

Apr 7, 2003, 01:25 AM

hehe...it's a power struggle.

I'm with arn on the political threads also. I never even go in there, and they tend to get heated often. Although, ever since the closing & relaunching, they have been very tame. ;)

GeneR

Apr 7, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by eyelikeart
hehe...it's a power struggle.

I'm with arn on the political threads also. I never even go in there, and they tend to get heated often. Although, ever since the closing & relaunching, they have been very tame. ;)

I got burned out on them a few weeks ago. Don't go in there anymore. Anyway, I hope you're right about that. However, maybe if people do post, they may care to also list links that back up their arguments? I dunno.

I'm just glad to be talking about something less destructive, like, uh, ramen noodles. :D

eyelikeart

Apr 9, 2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by GeneR
However, maybe if people do post, they may care to also list links that back up their arguments? I dunno.

I don't think that's thinking very realistically, but I do see your point. The thing is, political discussions NEVER go on without debate of some sort. I think it's just easier to be hostile when u are behind the mask of the internet than in real life, and with discussion forums like this, most people won't go searching just so they can site sources. So, until then, we'll be warning & closing down threads as seen fit to.

But very glad u are enjoying the discussion on ramen noodles. Have u tried the poop thread yet? ;)

GeneR

Apr 15, 2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by eyelikeart
I don't think that's thinking very realistically, but I do see your point. The thing is, political discussions NEVER go on without debate of some sort. I think it's just easier to be hostile when u are behind the mask of the internet than in real life, and with discussion forums like this, most people won't go searching just so they can site sources. So, until then, we'll be warning & closing down threads as seen fit to.

But very glad u are enjoying the discussion on ramen noodles. Have u tried the poop thread yet? ;)

Oh. Poop thread? I didn't even see that one. But then again I have an over-active imagination so it's probably best that I don't. ;)