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MacRumors
Aug 7, 2006, 03:14 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Also during Apple's WWDC keynote, Steve Jobs previewed Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard). Among the features demonstrated were:

- 64 bit (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/64bit.html) application support extended throughought the User Interface layer of the OS, allowing "full" 64-bit application development and deployment.
- Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html), automatic backup and restoring of files corrupted or accidentally deleted or overwritten by the user.
- Spaces (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/spaces.html), Apple's implementation of virtual desktops.
- Core Animation (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/coreanimation.html)
- Enhancements to Dashboard (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/dashboard.html), Spotlight (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/spotlight.html), Mail (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/mail.html), iCal (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ical.html) and Universal Access (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/accessibility.html)
- Boot Camp, and "next generation" Front Row, and Photo Booth bundled

Apple plan to release Leopard in "Spring 2007."

More information can be found at Apple's Leopard Sneak Peek (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) pages.

sososowhat
Aug 7, 2006, 03:17 PM
The new HW is fine, but Leopard is exciting! I'll look forward to this as I have all the big cats. Time machine is a great idea; love the additions to iChat & spotlight.

rye9
Aug 7, 2006, 03:18 PM
Personally.. I wasnt too thrilled with the features shown.. some i liked tho.. but some i didnt care for.. time machine is amazing however.. and spaces is nice too. All in all i cant wait to get my hands on it next year.

shrimpdesign
Aug 7, 2006, 03:19 PM
Features I want:

-iChat screen sharing (awesome idea!) and video effects
-Spaces (finally a Apple OS-level implementation)
-Time Machine (I want a friggin wormhole on my computer!)

I wish they'd show us the Top Secret features.

But seriously, so one even saw Time Machine coming. That was a surprise!

nagromme
Aug 7, 2006, 03:21 PM
Wow! :eek:

It's amazing how Apple keeps managing BIG updates to OS X. They are moving forward so much more efficiently than Microsoft. Not just polishing little things, but big, useful things. Not to mention some fun ones to attract consumers. I hope the advanced Spotlight features include easy boolean searching.

And now we can all wonder about those OTHER features Steve said they are concealing for now so Microsoft can't make a halfway copy (or attempt to) yet again.

I'm surprised res-independent UI was not discussed, but Apple has already said (http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/GraphicsImaging/ResolutionIndependentUI.html) that is coming, so maybe it's just not polished enough to bother showing yet. (Or maybe it's better to show when new displays come out? Today's new low prices on Cinema Displays might hint at new displays to come later.)

I've been asking for that background-change effect in iChat for years! Adobe Premiere could do that in the 90s, though not in realtime. Too cool!

Now one question... A new Front Row has been mentioned, but what will it have? PVR, tuner-ready for future Macs or peripherals? At first I also wondered about ["from across the room or across the house"... But I bet they're just talking about sharing iTunes or photos from another Mac, which is old news.

PS, congrats to MR's servers for handling the load :)

runninmac
Aug 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
Wow! Just about everything was bad ass! Time Machine seems awesome, so many times I have saved over a document and didn't have a back up. Now all I need is an external drive.

Were they serious when they said they were saving the best feature for later?

Porchland
Aug 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
The photo templates in Mail look pretty nifty. The ability to crop and scale inside a pre-defined space would make a nice new feature for iPhoto books, so I suspect we may see more of this feature in iPhoto when iLife refreshes in January.

The improved functionality in Mail looks great!

DMann
Aug 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
The new HW is fine, but Leopard is exciting! I'll look forward to this as I have all the big cats.

In nine months or less......... we'll have those
Top Secret features in our machines - too bad
for Redmond they won't be revealed until then.
Core graphics and Quartz Extreme will be amazing.
Love Time Machine, Spaces, etc.

Enigmac
Aug 7, 2006, 03:24 PM
Remember guys, these are only a few of the MANY features that Leopard will have to offer... including the top secret one. Steve made that clear.

Apple is doing a great job concealing everything else from M$. Spring 2007 is the release date. Expect to see new finder, along with an in-depth look! :D

Wow, for the first time... I actually feel sorry for poor boy Gates. He's in for a good ol' beating! :p :rolleyes: ;)

stubeeef
Aug 7, 2006, 03:25 PM
Just got off the apple website and WOW, some is obviously eye candy, but I LIKE IT ALOT!

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ichat.html

andrewag
Aug 7, 2006, 03:25 PM
Autumn is ages away!! Damn it!!!

Have to admit i'm not very impressed at the moment *cough* but i'm staying optimisitic that when i read more into it and as more information comes out there will be something that grabs my attention.

I'm kinda bummed that even with Vista sneaking up that Aqua hasn't changed much.

*stays optimistic*

AtHomeBoy_2000
Aug 7, 2006, 03:26 PM
I dont think the "Top Secret" stuff is really top secret. I think Apple needs some more time to develope a few things before releasing them out into the public. No reason to release buggy apps.

Remember, WWDC was pushed back this year. THey aren't done with Leopard just yet.

iJawn108
Aug 7, 2006, 03:26 PM
Hey nice to see osx will have system restore =D

Fotek2001
Aug 7, 2006, 03:27 PM
Not a glimpse of the Finder...! :eek:

bbruneau
Aug 7, 2006, 03:28 PM
Did anyone see the nifty link in the iCal page that is supposed to direct to calDAV standards page www.calconnect.org but insted linked to www.calconnect.com whicdh has a beautiful picture of a 1948 Chrysler? Didn't take them long to find that one.

Overall looks good, and I could really use the iCal sharing, but Spring? Come on!

Porchland
Aug 7, 2006, 03:30 PM
The side menu in the Mail (at least in the Quicktime demo on Apple) shows Notes and To Do. Wouldn't it make sense to finally bring Address Book and iCal into Mail along with these new options?

I know that would make it very Outlook 2003, but Outlook 2003 is one of the (few) things Microsoft has managed to get right.

I just don't see the need for Address Book and iCal to exist separately from Mail if they're going to be even more integrated with Mail.

Enigmac
Aug 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
Not a glimpse of the Finder...! :eek:
*cough* TOP SECRET *cough* :rolleyes:

britishempire
Aug 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
Looks very nice. Spaces will become a "how did we live without this?" feature as expose already has.

Does anyone know when we can expect a video of the WWDC to be uploaded??:confused:

longofest
Aug 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
Hey nice to see osx will have system restore =D

heh... they give MS so much crap for photocopying, but if anything, this is more or less taking a page out of MS's book with System Restore. Granted, it looks like it will be better, but still, MS had this kind of thing first.

Not trolling, just pointing it out :)

*cough* TOP SECRET *cough* :rolleyes:

It would definitely appear as though rumors of a re-vamped Finder could have some merit...

Zadillo
Aug 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
Hey nice to see osx will have system restore =D

I really hope you're joking, Time Machine is not equivalent to something like System Restore.

Tommyg117
Aug 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
anyone else a little underwhelmed with today's WWDC? There isn't anything that really jumped out at me besides the Mac Pro.

Eniregnat
Aug 7, 2006, 03:34 PM
It looks like the improvements to Universal Access (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/universalaccess/) alone will encourage me to upgrade. Finally better TTS voices! I just purchased two voices from Cepstral (http://www.cepstral.com/). I wonder if Apple will provide voices with an accent. I have grown fond of the British accented “Millie” voice. Luckely, I think the lybrary extensions that Cepstral offers are UB.

Zadillo
Aug 7, 2006, 03:35 PM
anyone else a little underwhelmed with today's WWDC? There isn't anything that really jumped out at me besides the Mac Pro.

I don't know what there is to be underwhelmed about; the rumor has basically been that the main things being covered here would be the Mac Pro (which exceeded my expectations) and the first real glimpse at Leopard (which looks very cool from what I've seen). I didn't find either the Mac Pro or Leopard to be underwhelming, so I don't see anything that would make me feel underwhelmed.

I guess I would be underwhelmed if I had mistaken WWDC for Macworld or something, and expected a bunch of major new product announcements.

Thataboy
Aug 7, 2006, 03:36 PM
I think one of the biggest things is the iChat remote desktop functionality. I have long been wanting very basic Apple Remote Desktop abilities in OS X. It is the perfect way to help a friend or family member troubleshoot a computer problem or teach them how to do a particular task.

Now, it seems, in iChat, all they have to do is share their screen, and you can take over! (If I am reading the description correctly!)

Oh yeah, Time Machine is cool. Spaces is alright, reminds me of Logic workspaces. Honestly, I never was so enamoured with Spotlight and Dashboard, but I am glad they are getting updated.

Now it's time for our crack team of Mac rumors sites to find out what's in Steve's sneaky top secret file folder!! I guess those features will be disabled in the Developer Previews? Because NDA or not, SOMEONE would talk about them.

playaj82
Aug 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
If the rumor sites were right....

Mac Pro
Leopard
iPhone
Core 2 Duo
iMac
Tablet, etc...

the keynote would have been 6 hours.
I'm glad they took their time with Leopard and highlighted some neat new and much needed additions to tiger.

mkrishnan
Aug 7, 2006, 03:38 PM
I'm surprised res-independent UI was not discussed, but Apple has already said (http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/GraphicsImaging/ResolutionIndependentUI.html) that is coming, so maybe it's just not polished enough to bother showing yet. (Or maybe it's better to show when new displays come out? Today's new low prices on Cinema Displays might hint at new displays to come later.)

I am not entirely clear on what all CoreAnimation does and does not do, but I'm wondering if it and RIUI are not related at some level.... some of its feature set sounds like exactly what one would need to make the RIUI easy to implement.... We'll have to wait and see.

I voted Time Machine. I'm not even sure I'd really use it. But it's a neat idea, and the implementation looks to be nothing less than stunning. When I first saw it, I too thought system restore, but it's clearly substantially more sophisticated and (what a shock) oriented at enhancing your experience doing actual stuff with your computer, rather than at undoing the mess Windows updaters make when they fail to do what they're supposed to. :D

To me overall it seems like I'll be excited to get my next Mac with Leopard pre-installed but I will not rush out to purchase a copy....

mdntcallr
Aug 7, 2006, 03:39 PM
i love the changes they made.

now if only they can merge ical into mail so it can fully compete against entourage and other apps.

I want my full telephone book, contact data management, with calendar in one program.

easier for me that way.

icloud
Aug 7, 2006, 03:39 PM
Lots of things changed from the first views of tiger to the creature it is today. I think their a lot more hiding in leopard then we found out today

P.s. I hope to god a new finder and the death of brushed metal is one of those "secrets"

Neb154
Aug 7, 2006, 03:39 PM
I'm real excited for the new iChat and Spaces, along with these new "top secret features..." They better be good!

The finder is definately my bet for something to be revamped, along with probably iLife which will be revamped for leopard.

Edit : Also something more with virtualization (boot camp area) as they did not touch that really.

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 03:40 PM
The top secret features better be REALLY good, this was disappointing and nothing was really new! Cupertino started it's photocopiers.... (The Vista banners are an actual joke after this keynote) :(

jonharris200
Aug 7, 2006, 03:42 PM
I can exclusively reveal that the top top secret feature of Leopard will be... inbuilt photocopying! :D

ArkabaS
Aug 7, 2006, 03:45 PM
Why does no one ever mention the Dock? It is a HUGE part of OS X and hasn't changed since Jaguar. It could be so much more useful if it allowed for dividers, more customization, etc. I hope the Top Secret stuff includes major improvements to Finder, the Dock, and Expose.

Tanglewood
Aug 7, 2006, 03:46 PM
I guess I would be underwhelmed if I had mistaken WWDC for Macworld or something, and expected a bunch of major new product announcements.

I agree. Release Mac Pro and just enough of Leopard to keep us going until January. Besides whats the point in Apple showing its entire hand with a release window 7-9 months out?

I do like that they'll be updating Mail. Having templates will be handy for what I use the program for.

dernhelm
Aug 7, 2006, 03:48 PM
Hey nice to see osx will have system restore =D

YOU MUST BE KIDDING. Have you actually used System Restore to restore a single file? Oh that's right, you can't. All you can do it reset your system back to a point where the file existed.

This is MUCH more powerful, and more like something users would actually want.

System Restore is great for those times when you want to apply a system patch that could be iffy, and you are willing to "snap" a restore point, apply the patch, and roll back if something didn't fly.

But for the normal user, it is much more useless.

GorillaPaws
Aug 7, 2006, 03:49 PM
I was impressed w/ the new iChat features. It will really help me troubleshoot w/ my mom, who is less-than-tech-savy. I'm a good two hours away from her when I'm up at school, so it'll be nice to be able to show her stuff. Plus with the new backgrounds she won't be able to see how filthy my apartment is :D .

Time machine was cool looking, although I'm not sure how often I'll truly use it.

The other thing that popped out at me (after just glancing at the website) was the really cool core animation vid they had up. That would be an amazing screen-saver, I hope they add that in to Leopard for impressing my PC friends. I'm still not sure what the potential uses are for developers are, other than eye candy. I haven't seen many apps that take advantage of core video yet so i wonder how useful this will be to developers. I'd love to hear what you all think about core animation and if it will have any utility.

DPazdanISU
Aug 7, 2006, 03:49 PM
http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/aug_2006/event/index.html

Dave00
Aug 7, 2006, 03:50 PM
Well, looks like Apple has figured out what to do with all that extra space most of us have on our hard drives. Even though only changes are saved, it seems like this will take up an enormous amount of space, especially for multimedia files like movies, etc. Plus, if only changes are stored, it would seem that to restore a file would entail starting with the original, and applying all the changes since then - wouldn't that take quite a long time? And saving a file would probably take longer too... smells like alot of system slowdown. Still, I'll be very impressed if this actually works without a huge number of bugs - it has to be a phenomenally complicated task to keep track of everything. And it LOOKS really cool. :)

Dave

Westside guy
Aug 7, 2006, 03:50 PM
Hey nice to see osx will have system restore =D

Time machine isn't even similar to MS's System Restore. Time Machine is basically like having CVS or Subversion underneath the file system. It rocks. I don't believe there's ever been anything like it on a client-type computer (a similar feature was present in the server OS VMS, I believe).

You might want to do some reading about CVS and Subversion.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be surprising to find that CVS/Subversion code is the foundation for Time Machine.

ZildjianKX
Aug 7, 2006, 03:51 PM
YOU MUST BE KIDDING. Have you actually used System Restore to restore a single file? Oh that's right, you can't. All you can do it reset your system back to a point where the file existed.

This is MUCH more powerful, and more like something users would actually want.

System Restore is great for those times when you want to apply a system patch that could be iffy, and you are willing to "snap" a restore point, apply the patch, and roll back if something didn't fly.

But for the normal user, it is much more useless.

I'd also like to point out I've never actually gotten XP's system restore to work, I've tried about 10 times over the past 5 years. Maybe I'm the exception, but you really can't rely on it.

dernhelm
Aug 7, 2006, 03:53 PM
I am not entirely clear on what all CoreAnimation does and does not do, but I'm wondering if it and RIUI are not related at some level....
I voted Time Machine. I'm not even sure I'd really use it. But it's a neat idea, and the implementation looks to be nothing less than stunning.


These were my top two as well. I just didn't have quite enough information on how Core Animation is actually set up to vote for it. It's also hard to get real excited about a developer-enabling feature, but it could certainly lead to some cool apps. It's also great that they're eating their own dogfood and using it to code Time Machine.

Time machine was my vote mostly because of its wide appeal. This looks awesome, and if it is as effortless as it sounds, may even be a reason to buy some NAS storage and hook it up at home. The demo I saw was simply amazing.

Great work apple. Now get those Core 2 Duo chips in the iMac and I'll be all set. :)

70355
Aug 7, 2006, 03:53 PM
What I like to say to PC fans that rip on Macs is this: Buy a Mac, use it for a year, and come back to me. Then if you still don't like Macs then at least you have supporting evidence, however I doubt that will be the case!

That's quite an offer. I'm sure you get a lot of takers.:rolleyes:

shelterpaw
Aug 7, 2006, 03:54 PM
i love the changes they made.

now if only they can merge ical into mail so it can fully compete against entourage and other apps.

I want my full telephone book, contact data management, with calendar in one program.

easier for me that way.
Yeah, that'd be cool. Just imagine if you could grab certain things from other apps, like that widget web clip feature and paste together your own app in whichever way you please. Would probably confuse the heck out of some novice users, but would be great for advanced users. Elastic applications.

Analog Kid
Aug 7, 2006, 03:55 PM
All in all, it looks good. Time machine, if it works how I hope it will, is going to be a killer. I like the iChat features-- interesting mix of useful business like features with toys for the teenagers...

CoreAnimation has be a little wary. I have a bad feeling we're going to get a run of really cheesy applications before this gets taken under control...

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 03:55 PM
Time machine isn't even similar to MS's System Restore. Time Machine is basically like having CVS or Subversion underneath the file system. It rocks. I don't believe there's ever been anything like it on a client-type computer (a similar feature was present in the server OS VMS, I believe).

You might want to do some reading about CVS and Subversion.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be surprising to find that CVS/Subversion code is the foundation for Time Machine.

Maybe not in a client type computer but it exists in Windows Server 2003 and it is called Volume Shadow Copy.

Of curse it doesn't look as nice !

polyesterlester
Aug 7, 2006, 03:55 PM
From the Xcode 3.0 (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/xcode.html) page:

"Project Snapshots

"Record the state of your project anytime, and restore it instantly. Experiment with new features without spending time or brain cells committing them to a source control system. Like saving a game in Civilization 4, Xcode 3.0 lets you go back in time without repercussions. If only reality worked this way at the Pentagon..."

I love you, Apple.

dernhelm
Aug 7, 2006, 03:56 PM
I'd also like to point out I've never actually gotten XP's system restore to work, I've tried about 10 times over the past 5 years. Maybe I'm the exception, but you really can't rely on it.

I've had it TRASH a machine at my home before. But I've used it successfully at work once or twice. For the disk space, though, I often turn it off. It is a complete pig, and if I'm tight at all, it's the first thing to go.

jonharris200
Aug 7, 2006, 04:00 PM
Will Time Machine mean that you can't permanently delete any file? What about something confidential which you want to "e-shred"?

dudemac
Aug 7, 2006, 04:05 PM
Features I want:

-iChat screen sharing (awesome idea!) and video effects
-Spaces (finally a Apple OS-level implementation)
-Time Machine (I want a friggin wormhole on my computer!)

I wish they'd show us the Top Secret features.

But seriously, so one even saw Time Machine coming. That was a surprise!

Actually if you keep up with the rumors you will remember that there was something about Apple licensing SUN's ZFS file system. Which has all the Time Machine features built into the file system. So I would say that this is more a long time coming feature then a smack in the head one. In fact with every OS version I have personally submitted requests for built in back up/ restore/ syncing software. So this is even better if it is built into the file system.

The rest of the features are pretty much just incremental upgrades. Not much to see other than Time Machine. But that seems to be the way it will be with Vista and all the latest OS versions we are at a point where most people don't have a compelling reason to upgrade. So I really hope there is some really killer new feature that I will want but I probably won't upgrade this time. Unless I buy a new laptop next year.

So I am kind of ho hum about it all.

thedude

freeny
Aug 7, 2006, 04:05 PM
Guess we now know what this was all about now.. (Web Clip)
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=151828&highlight=safari+widget

Out of all the predictions I think I was the closest (post #29):cool:
perhaps this button will produce a widget for the page you have open? sort of like having your favorite sites in your dashboard? you wont need to open safari to check your sites or even wait for someone to create a widget for the site. safari will author its own widgets.
Even better would be the ability to frame just the part of the site you want to see like a weather bar or team score using a cmd+shft+4 like command..... any takers?

m-dogg
Aug 7, 2006, 04:06 PM
Time Machines sounds interesting, though I think I'd have to buy an external drive to ever use it.

What about Safari? Doesn't sound like there was any reference to this, except related to widgets. I'd love to have more control over tabs, like moving/rerranging thier order, adding a second row of tabs instead of the annoying arrow to see what doesn't fit on one row, moving a tab from one open Safari window to another, tab expose, alerts like Ollie's Tab so you don't accidentally close a window with multiple tabs, and a new unified UI to name a few...

nagromme
Aug 7, 2006, 04:08 PM
I'm kinda bummed that even with Vista sneaking up that Aqua hasn't changed much.
Aqua is great and doesn't NEED to change much--it badly needs to be gone over for consistency, but it's already light years ahead of Vista in consistency, looks (MS loves clutter), and most importantly, functionality. Change for change's sake can be fun, but it can also get in the way.

That said, I think we haven't seen all the changes that next year will bring.

Anyway, Vista is not "sneaking up"... it still looks like a fiasco that nothing can save. It will sell well even so--that's a monopoly for you--but it doesn't threaten Tiger, much less Leopard (which we haven't even seen all of yet).

bdkennedy1
Aug 7, 2006, 04:09 PM
heh... they give MS so much crap for photocopying, but if anything, this is more or less taking a page out of MS's book with System Restore. Granted, it looks like it will be better, but still, MS had this kind of thing first.

I wouldn't say this was copying. A way to backup and restore your files is just common sense. Even if Microsoft didn't have a restore feature, Apple would have come up with it anyway.

Porchland
Aug 7, 2006, 04:11 PM
Looks very nice. Spaces will become a "how did we live without this?" feature as expose already has.

Does anyone know when we can expect a video of the WWDC to be uploaded??:confused:

I can't really tell how Spaces will work the Expose.

Apple's Leopard Sneak Peak says:

Configure your Spaces by visiting the Dashboard and Exposé preference pane in System Preferences. Add rows and columns until you have all the desktop real estate you need. Arrange your Spaces as you see fit, then assign what function keys you want to control them. You can also lock specific applications to specific Spaces, so you’ll always know where, say, Safari or Keynote is at all times.

I could the simulteneous use of both getting a little confusing.

My main concern overall about Leopard is that feature creep is going to cut into ease of use.

dernhelm
Aug 7, 2006, 04:11 PM
Maybe not in a client type computer but it exists in Windows Server 2003 and it is called Volume Shadow Copy.

Of curse it doesn't look as nice !

You're the closest so far, except that it is by turns both not as sophisticated as a Snapshot, and in some sense more sophisticated. A snapshot allows you to "capture" the current state of a disk at a particular point in time - further new updates do not impact the snapshot. This assures a consistent backup as of a given point in time. This is not what Apple is doing here, as they are simply storing the old version of the file on the backup system.

However, in Time Machine, "snapshots" are not deliberate actions, they occur everytime something is changed. It would be tedious/near impossible to restore your entire disk back to a certain known good point using Time Machine - but that's a SysAdmin thing. It is almost simplicity itself to restore a given file or set of files back to what they were 30 minutes ago. And that is something that "everyman" needs a lot. If your choices are your current corrupt version, or the version as of the last snapshot, that is often a choice between bad and worse.

Peace
Aug 7, 2006, 04:12 PM
I thought an interesting part was more UB apps next week..

Office?
CS2 ?

VanNess
Aug 7, 2006, 04:13 PM
Ladies and Gentleman, Apple proudly presents the next release of Apple's groundbreaking operating system: OS X 10.5 "Leopard"

Hey, that don't look like no Leopard...

Stridder44
Aug 7, 2006, 04:14 PM
...You can also lock specific applications to specific Spaces, so you’ll always know where, say, Safari or Keynote is at all times.



Do you realize how awesome this would be at work???

jackc
Aug 7, 2006, 04:15 PM
Time Machine looks pretty sweet. How do you think it will work in terms of space requirements?

balamw
Aug 7, 2006, 04:15 PM
This is not what Apple is doing here, as they are simply storing the old version of the file on the backup system.
Which takes us back to the behavior that was the default on VAX systems running VMS 20 years ago... Microsoft is implementing something similar in Vista as well. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060730-7383.html

B

nagromme
Aug 7, 2006, 04:16 PM
Will Time Machine mean that you can't permanently delete any file? What about something confidential which you want to "e-shred"?
Never fear: it says you can exclude any data from Time Machine that you wish.

(Plus, if you change your mind about a file, you have OS X's Secure Empty Trash--which might also purge your backup, if it's connected. But whatever the implementation, I'm sure Apple has thought about this--we just don't have 100% off the details yet.)

My main concern overall about Leopard is that feature creep is going to cut into ease of use.
Only if you are FORCED to use Spaces. But like Exposé, Dashboard, and even the right mouse button, it will be optional. Apple is sensitive about beginner simplicity.

Porchland
Aug 7, 2006, 04:18 PM
I'm real excited for the new iChat and Spaces, along with these new "top secret features..." They better be good!

The finder is definately my bet for something to be revamped, along with probably iLife which will be revamped for leopard.

Edit : Also something more with virtualization (boot camp area) as they did not touch that really.

My bets are on some kind of Boot Camp-ish feature that will allow for native installation of Windows applications -- without Windows -- right into OS X. It would obliterate the need for applications to be written for both Windows and Mac.

<ducks and waits for flamers to whine about how impossible this is>

freeny
Aug 7, 2006, 04:18 PM
Time Machine looks pretty sweet. How do you think it will work in terms of space requirements?
you would be safe in assuming to have double the amount of space used by files on your main HD. This will end up being like RAM, The more you have the better it will serve you....

Lacie is very excited about this im sure:D

freeny
Aug 7, 2006, 04:19 PM
sorry double post

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 04:20 PM
I wouldn't say this was copying. A way to backup and restore your files is just common sense. Even if Microsoft didn't have a restore feature, Apple would have come up with it anyway.

If Apple had had that feature for years and MS would include it into Vista now, you'd call it copying, no !? ;)

mkrishnan
Aug 7, 2006, 04:22 PM
If Apple had had that feature for years and MS would include it into Vista now, you'd call it copying, no !? ;)

*shrug* I don't think TM is a copy of System Restore. But I think how much that feature has caught on with Win users is also not unrelated to the presence of TM in Leopard. All's fair in love, war, and operating systems. :)

nerveosu
Aug 7, 2006, 04:23 PM
It says somewhere on the apple web site that macs with G3s will be supported with Leopard.. any word on specific computers that will be supported? I have a iMac DV 400 G3 that I am curious about.

cgmpowers
Aug 7, 2006, 04:23 PM
Microsoft officially CANNED Virtual PC... Apple's been giving accolades to Boot Camp and Paralles.. The 'ribbing of so-called "Vista 2.0" on the banner'..

It's obviously not such a secret after all that MS apps will eventually be allowed to run ontop of OS X withouth ever installing a Windows operating system..


My bets are on some kind of Boot Camp-ish feature that will allow for native installation of Windows applications -- without Windows -- right into OS X. It would obliterate the need for applications to be written for both Windows and Mac.

<ducks and waits for flamers to whine about how impossible this is>

balamw
Aug 7, 2006, 04:24 PM
If Apple had had that feature for years and MS would include it into Vista now, you'd call it copying, no !? ;)
If you were picking on Mail.app's Stationery I'd probably agree with you.

None of the things that Time Machine have been compared to seem even close to what they are planning to do. Including my own VMS file versioning analogies. System Restore is not capable of restoring a single file, and particularly not within a running application. It seems kind of more like a system wide undo function when it comes to files...

B

VanNess
Aug 7, 2006, 04:24 PM
By the way, I don't want to say Leopard is a disappointment compared to Vista, obviously we were not shown Leopard in action to any great degree yet. But the keynote (at least the Leopard part) was definitely a disappointment. It hardly scratched the surface of just about everything that everybody was most interested in/concerned about.

http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/CryBaby2.gif

freeny
Aug 7, 2006, 04:25 PM
I really dont give a cr@p who made what first or who stole this or that. All I care is that it works....

swingerofbirch
Aug 7, 2006, 04:25 PM
Good lord. Whatever happened to simplicity? It looked like a three ring circus up there today.

Now come on. Time machine? With a picture of outer space and stars? This looks so gimmicky. They are getting to be like Microsoft and just adding new features instead of making things easier and streamlined. Why not just improve the Backup program that comes with .Mac or include it for free? Do we really need another interface? To me it looks like form over function.

BoyBach
Aug 7, 2006, 04:27 PM
I voted for the Enhanced Dashboard. This seems really useful to me - my own personal web clipping service of the things I want to check regularly with the click of the Mighty Mouse Scrollball :)

I also think 'Spaces' will become invaluable within a few hours of getting used to it.

other
Aug 7, 2006, 04:29 PM
*shrug* I don't think TM is a copy of System Restore. But I think how much that feature has caught on with Win users is also not unrelated to the presence of TM in Leopard. All's fair in love, war, and operating systems. :)

Well, do you think it's a copy of "Previous versions", which someone posted a link to in this thread?

(Here's the link again: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060730-7383.html)

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 04:30 PM
If you were picking on Mail.app's Stationery I'd probably agree with you.

None of the things that Time Machine have been compared to seem even close to what they are planning to do. Including my own VMS file versioning analogies. System Restore is not capable of restoring a single file, and particularly not within a running application. It seems kind of more like a system wide undo function when it comes to files...

B

I'm not comparing it to system restore but to Volume Shadow Copy from Windows Server 2003. File-by-file snapshot by MS 3 years ago!
I think Time Machine looks and probably is good, but after having seen all the pictures of the banners at WWDC mocking Vista, I expected someting REALLY NEW, not just warmed up. If they can't show the super super secret new stuff yet, then they shouldn't have used those banners. I find that arrogant...

depperl
Aug 7, 2006, 04:30 PM
if leopard is not enough here's some more new features: Leopard-Server (http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/)

i think leopard-server is going to have some cool things for the enterprise-market :rolleyes:

nerveosu
Aug 7, 2006, 04:31 PM
The star field background for Spaces was Tacky.

jackc
Aug 7, 2006, 04:32 PM
Now come on. Time machine? With a picture of outer space and stars? This looks so gimmicky.

True, it's a cool demo, but hopefully there's a simpler default interface.

Super Dave
Aug 7, 2006, 04:33 PM
I dont think the "Top Secret" stuff is really top secret. I think Apple needs some more time to develope a few things before releasing them out into the public. No reason to release buggy apps.

Remember, WWDC was pushed back this year. THey aren't done with Leopard just yet.

They certainly aren't done, but they're announcing it within the same length time frame as they did with Tiger if I recall.

I actually believed him on the "Top Secret" stuff. Every vista build changes, so it's good to not let too much out of the bag until Vista is either interface frozen or released.

David :cool:

Super Dave
Aug 7, 2006, 04:34 PM
True, it's a cool demo, but hopefully there's a simpler default interface.

Looks like there's a time frame on the side. I imagine you could just click there to find a certain date. What could be simpler than that?

David :cool:

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 04:34 PM
Good lord. Whatever happened to simplicity? It looked like a three ring circus up there today.

Now come on. Time machine? With a picture of outer space and stars? This looks so gimmicky. They are getting to be like Microsoft and just adding new features instead of making things easier and streamlined. Why not just improve the Backup program that comes with .Mac or include it for free? Do we really need another interface? To me it looks like form over function.

Exactly my thoughts!! Looks like a Trekie (how do you write that??) was let loose :D

mkrishnan
Aug 7, 2006, 04:35 PM
Well, do you think it's a copy of "Previous versions", which someone posted a link to in this thread?

It's very similar. I'm saying, who cares? It's a simple basic concept and Apple has a nice implementation going. :) And I actually believe that Apple's version will not have glaring security holes. :eek: :p Ahem...I installed Trillian on managed Win2k and XP machines as a standard user, and other users had access to my IM accounts without logging in!!!! :rolleyes:

Anyway, though, a Wiki Server in Leopard Server...mmmm... If only we lived in an Apple world. :D

That guy who made the angry video said it best... using a Mac is not so much using a computer but participating in the Apple experience. :D

jackc
Aug 7, 2006, 04:36 PM
Looks like there's a time frame on the side. I imagine you could just click there to find a certain date. What could be simpler than that?

David :cool:

Right, I meant less flashy, not simpler.

balamw
Aug 7, 2006, 04:36 PM
I'm not comparing it to system restore but to Volume Shadow Copy from Windows Server 2003. File-by-file snapshot by MS 3 years ago!

Again, fundamentally, a feature that existed in VMS over fifteen years ago and had been promised as part of Cairo. It took them over ten years to finally release it in Windows? :p

I'll have to ask my firendly IT guy, but how does the end user access shadow copies?

Exactly my thoughts!! Looks like a Trekie (how do you write that??) was let loose :D
Actually had a very Star Wars like feel to it with the angled text. Maybe one of the former Lucasfilm/ILM people from Pixar? :p

"A long time ago in a galaxy far away, a user created a file and overwrote its contents...."

B

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 04:38 PM
I'll have to ask my firendly IT guy, but how does the end user access shadow copies?

B
As far as I know he can't, that's the difference. IT has to restore the file for you.
Still, nothing fundamentally new, and definitely not Vista 2.0... ;)

chasemac
Aug 7, 2006, 04:40 PM
Is Leopard going to take advantage of the 64 bit Dual G5?

dsnort
Aug 7, 2006, 04:41 PM
As a recent switcher to Mac, I have had a lot of experience with M$'s System Restore function. It is NOT a "go back and find that data I deleted" application. It IS a "can we please go back to a time when this computer wasn't totally ********* up" application.

Thunderbird
Aug 7, 2006, 04:41 PM
So the cat won't be out of the bag until Spring 2007?

I thought Leopard was slated for December?

Maybe that means it will actually be launched at MWSF in January

I wonder if this is a case of Redmond playing chicken with Cuppertino...

Microsoft: "We're late, so show us your O/S first."
Apple: "Sorry, not until December. But feel free to release yours first"
Microsoft: "We've delayed till March, so you go first"
Apple: "Well, we've delayed till Spring too, so you go ahead."

:D

BGil
Aug 7, 2006, 04:42 PM
Which takes us back to the behavior that was the default on VAX systems running VMS 20 years ago... Microsoft is implementing something similar in Vista as well. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060730-7383.html

B

Yeah, Apple is definitely copying Microsoft now... it's pretty undeniable. Time Machine is virtually identical to Microsoft's backup system for Vista.

"Previous Docs" from Wikipedia:
"Previous Versions", previously known as Volume Shadow Copy in Windows Server 2003, provides read-only snapshots of files on local or network volumes from an earlier point in time. A new tab in the Properties dialog for any file or folder provides users with straightforward access to these previous versions.

System Restore, Shadow Copy, and Backup in Vista now run on the same technology (so they are considerably different than the XP versions).

iChat basically got the remote screen sharing feature that Microsoft shipped with XP in 2001 (included in Windows Messenger) and the presentation/app sharing features from Windows collaboration in Vista.

Mail and iCal got a bunch of features from Outlook 2007 and Windows Live Calendar/Mail.

Dashboard's ability to clip web pages is straight out of Active Desktop.

the Spotlight improvements were things that Indexing Server in XP/2000/2003 already did. Even windows desktop search (enterprise) and Vista include that functionality as well.

Spaces is virtual desktops just like the powertoy MS released years ago
http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/Virtual_Desktop_Manager_Powertoy/msvdm.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_desktop

Core Animation looks like Apple's response to all the DX and WPF (Avalon) animation tools in Vista.

balamw
Aug 7, 2006, 04:42 PM
Still, nothing fundamentally new, and definitely not Vista 2.0... ;)
Remember that Vista and Leopard are desktop OSes, not server OSes...

Anyhow, I'll wait until I see Vista 1.0 (not RC2) before I'm sure about that. ;)

B

Stella
Aug 7, 2006, 04:43 PM
Is Leopard going to take advantage of the 64 bit Dual G5?

Whats the point? Its history.

My guess is, that its how Tiger is now.

Cameront9
Aug 7, 2006, 04:46 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/accessibility.html

From this site:

Closed captioning
QuickTime currently supports closed captioning by including a text track alongside audio and video content. But improved QuickTime support will automatically display the CEA-608 closed captioning text standard in analog broadcasts in the U.S.

-----

Anyone think this means support for Closed Captioning in iTunes video downloads? As a hearing-impaired Mac-User, the lack of subtitles/captions in the TV shows is the one thing keeping me from buying a bunch of them. I hope they address this issue soon...

As for the rest of the stuff:

1) Time Machine--cool name for a cool idea. However, I use a Powerbook, and my External HD is in another room. It's not connected all the time. I wonder how this setup will work? And like others, I initially thought "System Restore," but then I realized how different this is, and how Useful. But how far back can you go? I have files on my computer that are almost 10 years old....Will time machine be able to find stuff that was deleted years ago (I do mean AFTER time Machine is installed...I obviously don't expect it to find stuff deleted before TM was installed).

2) Mail. To-Do implementation looks neat, and themes might be fun for a Christmas letter. But I really don't care about HTML mail.

3) iChat. "Share the Screen" looks awesome, if it works well. So does being able to do a slideshow while chatting with someone...

4) Spaces. I've gotten so used to Expose, I can't see Virtual desktops being that big a deal to me. But It's a good feature for those who want it.

5) Dashboard. From the previews, it seems like Dashcode will be available as part of the OS?

6) Spotlight. Over-the-network searches sound great.

7) iCal. More networking features are great, but most of my friends/coworkers have PCs, so moot point for me.

8) Accessibilty: See above about Closed Captioning. Anything that helps Hearing impaired users is great.

9) 64-bit. Kind of Obvious?

10) Core Animation: Will my 1.67 G4 Powerbook be able to utilize this in any way?

Overall, great Keynote, I thought. the only people that should be disappointed are the ones claiming all kinds of crazy stuff, as always.

michaelrjohnson
Aug 7, 2006, 04:46 PM
So the cat won't be out of the bag until Spring 2007?

I thought Leopard was slated for December?

Maybe that means it will actually be launched at MWSF in January ...

January is not Spring. Do not expect a release in January; Expect a full-featured preview, with an announcement of a final shipping-date.

chasemac
Aug 7, 2006, 04:47 PM
Whats the point? Its history.

My guess is, that its how Tiger is now.

Because it is a 64 bit proccessor that's the point.

Thunderbird
Aug 7, 2006, 04:52 PM
January is not Spring. Do not expect a release in January; Expect a full-featured preview, with an announcement of a final shipping-date.

But Steve always likes to try to be ahead of his own schedules ....underpromising and overdelivering. :)

70355
Aug 7, 2006, 04:54 PM
But Steve always likes to try to be ahead of his own schedules ....underpromising and overdelivering. :)

Like the whole 3ghz thing?

Sped
Aug 7, 2006, 04:58 PM
Not a glimpse of the Finder...! :eek:

Here, here. I have been a very happy Mac fan for several years now, but the Finder is a POS. Although specifically mentioning a new Finder might be considered acknowledgment that it stinks, I think Steve could couch it in favorable language. Bottom line, Leopard better FTFF.

Cameront9
Aug 7, 2006, 05:02 PM
Like the whole 3ghz thing?

Ahh, but that was a different situation. In that case, Steve said that, but was dependent on IBM to make it come true.

In this Case, steve is only dependent on his own company to make it come true.

And did anyone else laugh today when they showed the top of the line Mac Pro--at 3Ghz?

Agilus
Aug 7, 2006, 05:06 PM
As far as I know he can't, that's the difference. IT has to restore the file for you.
Still, nothing fundamentally new, and definitely not Vista 2.0... ;)

I don't think people are understanding the power of this tool. Sure, it backs stuff up, but what I like about it is that it's basically an automatic versioning (or configuration management) system built into the OS, tailored for a single user, with an intuitive way to search, view, and retrieve old versions. As far as I know, this hasn't been done before.

I do my own personal writing and coding, and it's something I've wanted for a long time. I even considered setting up CVS on my computer so I could do it myself, but never got around to it.

One thing that makes this better/different than other versioning systems, is that it is tailored for a single user. You don't get all the extra stuff that comes along with other version control software that deals with multiple users and file locking, etc. You just get the goodness of having all of your changes. Hopefully it can perform diffs (highlighting the differences between different versions), too!

chasemac
Aug 7, 2006, 05:07 PM
Time Machine won't mean much when the HD fails. Back that azz up!

excalibur313
Aug 7, 2006, 05:07 PM
Do you think that the developers who get a copy of leopard will have access to the top secret features? If so then I wouldn't doubt if some of the features got leaked faster than apple intended. Heck, last time within a week tiger as an os was lead. Yes I know the guy was sued but it would have been very hard to track who did it if he hadn't put everything he was doing in a blog.

Thunderbird
Aug 7, 2006, 05:09 PM
Like the whole 3ghz thing?

Ok, except for that

Stridder44
Aug 7, 2006, 05:10 PM
I'm not comparing it to system restore but to Volume Shadow Copy from Windows Server 2003. File-by-file snapshot by MS 3 years ago!
I think Time Machine looks and probably is good, but after having seen all the pictures of the banners at WWDC mocking Vista, I expected someting REALLY NEW, not just warmed up. If they can't show the super super secret new stuff yet, then they shouldn't have used those banners. I find that arrogant...


APPLE!? Arrogant??? Naaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh.

And how do you know you guys are going to hate it? You never even used it yet. My God some of you people are such complainers. Put some dirt on it, make a hill, and get over it.

TiAdiMundo
Aug 7, 2006, 05:10 PM
From Vista Help:
"Previous versions of files and folders are copies that Windows automatically saves as part of a restore point. Any file or folder that was modified since the last restore point was made (usually 24 hours earlier) is saved and made available as a previous version. You can use previous versions of files to restore files that you accidentally modified or deleted, or that were damaged."

I can use this now but without childish animations. Simple right-click the folder and select "restore previous versions".

For me the Leopard preview was a big disappointment. No innovative features but silly Vista bashing all the time. Come on, Apple!

What about flash drives? Meta data organisation in Finder? Media streams over local networks? Better window management? Spaces is the next answere to the incomplete Dockbar-conception (Exposé was the first and Time Maschine is a next interface ornateness).

Preview and network-wide search in Spotlight? Who is copying here?

I can't believe that: but now Vista looks innovativ!

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 05:12 PM
Yeah, Apple is definitely copying Microsoft now... it's pretty undeniable. Time Machine is virtually identical to Microsoft's backup system for Vista.

"Previous Docs" from Wikipedia:
...

System Restore, Shadow Copy, and Backup in Vista now run on the same technology (so they are considerably different than the XP versions).

iChat basically got the remote screen sharing feature that Microsoft shipped with XP in 2001...
Mail and iCal got a bunch of features from Outlook 2007 and Windows Live Calendar/Mail.
Dashboard's ability to clip web pages is straight out of Active Desktop.
the Spotlight improvements were things that Indexing Server in XP/2000/2003 already did. ...
Spaces is virtual desktops just like the powertoy MS released years ago
...
Core Animation looks like Apple's response to all the DX and WPF (Avalon) animation tools in Vista.

Bingo !

nukiduz
Aug 7, 2006, 05:15 PM
From Vista Help:
"Previous versions of files and folders are copies that Windows automatically saves as part of a restore point. Any file or folder that was modified since the last restore point was made (usually 24 hours earlier) is saved and made available as a previous version. You can use previous versions of files to restore files that you accidentally modified or deleted, or that were damaged."

I can use this now but without childish animations. Simple right-click the folder and select "restore previous versions".

For me the Leopard preview was a big disappointment. No innovative features but silly Vista bashing all the time. Come on, Apple!

What about flash drives? Meta data organisation in Finder? Media streams over local networks? Better window management? Spaces is the next answere to the incomplete Dockbar-conception (Exposé was the first and Time Maschine is a next interface ornateness).

Preview and network-wide search in Spotlight? Who is copying here?

I can't believe that: but now Vista looks innovativ!

i completely agree. just hope that the top secret thing makes us think other way.

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 05:22 PM
APPLE!? Arrogant??? Naaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh.

And how do you know you guys are going to hate it? You never even used it yet. My God some of you people are such complainers. Put some dirt on it, make a hill, and get over it.

I'm sure I'm not going to hate it, it's probably gonna be fabulous, but it's not an innovation as Steve advertises it. In fact, not a single thing they showed about Leopard up to now is an innovation. Everything already exists somehow. I'm not complaining about the new features of the OS, but about how they present them. They're all (hopefully) improved versions of existing stuff!!

Stridder44
Aug 7, 2006, 05:24 PM
I'm sure I'm not going to hate it, it's probably gonna be fabulous, but it's not an innovation as Steve advertises it. In fact, not a single thing they showed about Leopard up to now is an innovation. Everything already exists somehow. I'm not complaining about the new features of the OS, but about how they present them. They're all (hopefully) improved versions of existing stuff!!


True, I guess we can only hope that the top secret stuff is top secret for a reason (or because it wasn't ready for the Keynote)

70355
Aug 7, 2006, 05:24 PM
Ahh, but that was a different situation. In that case, Steve said that, but was dependent on IBM to make it come true.

Did someone put a gun to Jobs' head and make him use IBM?

bousozoku
Aug 7, 2006, 05:27 PM
I'm glad that Leopard will be completely (that's what they say, at least) 64-bit. I'm not sure why it's important to go on about the applications as if they were important to the operating system itself. Increased integration like what was displayed would cause the anti-trust machine to whip into action, if it was Microsoft instead of Apple.

Time Machine is not exactly revolutionary, considering that there were a few 3rd party products available--Rewind comes to mind--that journaled changes and allowed them to be restored. Still, it should stop the various threads "I accidentally deleted..." :)

Hopefully, the features not mentioned will include a better kernel that actually performs well. It would be nice to see operating system benchmarks that don't make me cringe when I look at the Mac OS X results.

Xcode version 3.0 looks good but they still haven't provided many details.

jne381
Aug 7, 2006, 05:27 PM
I think the improvements to OSX are all well and good, I do think Time Machine will be valued in my home, but it is hard to get excited because 10.4 still seems so new to me. I'm sure I don't even know a lot of the cool things it does.

I was hoping for more in the way of hardware. The MacPro seem fine, even though no new case. WHat is he deal with no new displays, but they did drop the prices a little. I think the iPod is long overdue at this point for a makeover. I guess I'm just a victim of my own unfulfilled expectations.

MacSA
Aug 7, 2006, 05:32 PM
As a recent switcher to Mac, I have had a lot of experience with M$'s System Restore function. It is NOT a "go back and find that data I deleted" application. It IS a "can we please go back to a time when this computer wasn't totally ********* up" application.

I know, I cant believe people are comparing it to the sytem restore on Windows... sys restore on my PC is total bollocks and never solved any problem I had.

thevofl
Aug 7, 2006, 05:32 PM
1) When I did a system restore at work, it restored everything back on the date. I lost all my work since the date.

2) Something tells me that the Super Duper top secret stuff has more to do with multimedia integration: a skype-type feature for calling a phone number using iChat, expansion of bonjour, a multimedia hub similar to tivo.

3) For those at the conference, what was under the black sheet covered banners?

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 05:34 PM
Time Machine won't mean much when the HD fails. Back that azz up!

Also a very good point, so I need a bigger main HD for my MacBookPro (the new Seagate 160GB becomes interesting) for Time Machine, but i still need to back the hole thing up to an external HD in case of a HD crash (I had 2 in the last 8 months!). So Tine Machine doesn't make Backups obsolete, I didn't even think of that up to now. Hmmm..

dialectician
Aug 7, 2006, 05:35 PM
Ok, so I take the point, made ad nauseam, that these features are not entirely new or innovative, since there are third party apps out there that do the same. And perhaps Apple is copying Vista, which doesn't really bother me either.

Bottom line: time machine will make a huge difference for most users in terms of preventing or remedying data loss!

WillMak
Aug 7, 2006, 05:36 PM
Will those of us with 32 bit Yonah processors not have access to 100% of leopards features?

clevin
Aug 7, 2006, 05:37 PM
can't believe only 8 people voted for 64bit, its the most profound change here.... all others you can achieve with some 3rd party softwares.

chasemac
Aug 7, 2006, 05:46 PM
can't believe only 8 people voted for 64bit, its the most profound change here.... all others you can achieve with some 3rd party softwares.

Same here. To me it is one of the most significant upgrades of all of them.

Cameront9
Aug 7, 2006, 05:46 PM
WHat is he deal with no new displays, but they did drop the prices a little. I think the iPod is long overdue at this point for a makeover. I guess I'm just a victim of my own unfulfilled expectations.

The displays WERE updated slightly...check the main page.

As for iPods...why "makeover" what is working? And this was the DEVELOPERS conference. iPods, if they happen before Christmas, will be either at Paris or a special media event (the latter more likely, IMHO).

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 05:46 PM
ok, to say something good about this preview: ichat looks great! Really looking forward to that! :)

povman
Aug 7, 2006, 05:46 PM
From Vista Help:
"Previous versions of files and folders are copies that Windows automatically saves as part of a restore point. Any file or folder that was modified since the last restore point was made (usually 24 hours earlier) is saved and made available as a previous version. You can use previous versions of files to restore files that you accidentally modified or deleted, or that were damaged."

I can use this now but without childish animations. Simple right-click the folder and select "restore previous versions".

from your description, the 'restore previous files' thing is more like backup&restore

If apple really is using zfs in leopard, then time machine is going to be a lot more than just saving files and restoring them.... It's more like 'hey we got some extra disk space. instead of overwriting this file, lets write it somewhere else so the old version is still there :D'

i.e. ALL versions of all files are saved until you run out of space, then you start to lose old stuff. Well i guess there might be some modifications so it only applies to certain files or something...

i do hope they lose the space stars background on it though... replace it with a rotating spiral and i'd be happy :D

Cameront9
Aug 7, 2006, 05:48 PM
Also a very good point, so I need a bigger main HD for my MacBookPro (the new Seagate 160GB becomes interesting) for Time Machine, but i still need to back the hole thing up to an external HD in case of a HD crash (I had 2 in the last 8 months!). So Tine Machine doesn't make Backups obsolete, I didn't even think of that up to now. Hmmm..

They way I understand it, Time Machine is SUPPOSED to be used with an external...the page on the Leopard site even has an icon of an iMac connected to an External. I'm sure you can use your Internal drive if you want, but I don't see the point of that.

shelterpaw
Aug 7, 2006, 05:52 PM
can't believe only 8 people voted for 64bit, its the most profound change here.... all others you can achieve with some 3rd party softwares.
Maybe that's because many of us wont know how it will effect us if at all. Most people here are consumers and 64bit wont have an effect for some time to come.

I'm sure it'll have a much bigger impact on the scientific and server community, but not much for the rest of us.

I use Adobe tools and Ableton for creative stuff. Will any of those apps be 64bit or be able to take advantage of it? I have no idea. I just can't see the benefits yet.

shrimpdesign
Aug 7, 2006, 05:52 PM
I'm sure I'm not going to hate it, it's probably gonna be fabulous, but it's not an innovation as Steve advertises it. In fact, not a single thing they showed about Leopard up to now is an innovation. Everything already exists somehow. I'm not complaining about the new features of the OS, but about how they present them. They're all (hopefully) improved versions of existing stuff!!
Innovation isn't creating new ideas, but improving them.

For instance, Spotlight searching wasn't new. BeOS had something similar. But Apple improved it and integrated it into their OS.

See, I have Virtue desktops. I've tried Desktop Manager, You Control: Desktops. But they're all just hacks. Spaces looks mcuh cleaner, simpler and elegant than any of those. That's what I expect from Apple, and they did not let me down.

As for Time Machine, no the idea is not new, even for Microsoft. But Apple is making it simple. Easy enough for mom and dad to use. Personally I think having a wormhole-space interface is kickass.

tny
Aug 7, 2006, 05:57 PM
I really hope you're joking, Time Machine is not equivalent to something like System Restore.

Actually, from what I saw, Time Machine looks like a combo of System Restore, ShadowCopies (but better), and Backup.

tortoise
Aug 7, 2006, 06:00 PM
I am sooo looking forward to this. The two top items on my OS wishlist was a competent versioning file system built-in and virtual desktops.

If I can get both, I will have damn little to complain about on the user side. I would like a deep and supported Mail.app plug-in API, for the developer side of things.

jholzner
Aug 7, 2006, 06:00 PM
Time Machine won't mean much when the HD fails. Back that azz up!

I keep reading stuff like this. I don't think Time Machine works with the reagular harddrive. You have to use it with an external drive.

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 06:02 PM
They way I understand it, Time Machine is SUPPOSED to be used with an external...the page on the Leopard site even has an icon of an iMac connected to an External. I'm sure you can use your Internal drive if you want, but I don't see the point of that.

So how about the MacBooks?? I don't carry around an external HD all the time. So when I do changes to a document on a flight, there's no TimeMachine backup?? Cool whould be, if the programm did backups to an external HD when available and locally when there's no external HD. But as soon as one connects the extrenal HD again, those local backups should be automatically moved to the extrenal to save space on the internal HD. That would eliminate the need for an additional external backup.

icookbook
Aug 7, 2006, 06:02 PM
So, the time machine will allow you to selectively restore files which have been deleted, yet as of present the trash can will not allow you to selectively undelete a file?

Might as well just delete the file, then restore it with the time machine!!!!

... I have a feeling the trash can may see some changes, ha

70355
Aug 7, 2006, 06:03 PM
Innovation isn't creating new ideas, but improving them.

I guess. If we're allowed to make up our own definitions for words.

If not, Merriam-Webster considers "innovation" to be "the introduction of something new".

chasemac
Aug 7, 2006, 06:07 PM
I keep reading stuff like this. I don't think Time Machine works with the reagular harddrive. You have to use it with an external drive.

Yes, I was wondering the same because it wouldn't make much sense would it.:)

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 06:07 PM
Innovation isn't creating new ideas, but improving them.

For instance, Spotlight searching wasn't new. BeOS had something similar. But Apple improved it and integrated it into their OS.

See, I have Virtue desktops. I've tried Desktop Manager, You Control: Desktops. But they're all just hacks. Spaces looks mcuh cleaner, simpler and elegant than any of those. That's what I expect from Apple, and they did not let me down.

As for Time Machine, no the idea is not new, even for Microsoft. But Apple is making it simple. Easy enough for mom and dad to use. Personally I think having a wormhole-space interface is kickass.

Ok my last post on this topic before I'm getting on peoples nerves: Copying, improving and whatever you wanna call it is ok, I don't care where an idea came from as long as the outcome is good. But Apple always presents their innovations as their inventions and claims that everyone else copies. In todays keynote they even made a big deal out of how MS copies Apple (banner, on stage), and afterwards they introduced only stuff that they copied (and maybe improved) from MS, Linux... that's just not very sympathetic!

ckent
Aug 7, 2006, 06:11 PM
Haha! Did you see the video for Time Machine on the Apple website?

They're doing a "search for old friends", with the name "Rose" !!

That can't be a coincidence :-)

CK.

jackc
Aug 7, 2006, 06:12 PM
I keep reading stuff like this. I don't think Time Machine works with the reagular harddrive. You have to use it with an external drive.

Yes, I was wondering the same because it wouldn't make much sense would it.:)

It seems to me it would make some older versions available on your HD, but then you would want to make a copy to an external HD for space reasons and for backup in case of failure. But I'm just speculating of course

ChrisA
Aug 7, 2006, 06:13 PM
I wonder how "Time Machine" is implemented. I miss having a feature like this. I used VAX/VMS back in the early 1980's (before UNIX became popular) and of course VMS keept histories of files. So if I was editing a file and saved it I could always get any of the old versions back. It was great. The feature was built into the file system and of course all the applications used the file system. Finally now 20+ years later we get this feature. From experiance I can say the for certain, _everyone_ will like this and come to depend on it. The second part "come to depend on it" will be more true than many of you now think.

tortoise
Aug 7, 2006, 06:14 PM
Why not just improve the Backup program that comes with .Mac or include it for free? Do we really need another interface? To me it looks like form over function.


You are out of your mind. A true versioning file system is insanely useful, and has been a Holy Grail file system feature that has not existed largely because it requires some significant unused disk space and disk performance to use it -- it is not a cheap feature to implement. Once you have it and applications start to use its functionality it will be like the internet: you will wonder how you got on in the computer world without it.

I do not care how they presented it, if it works as advertised then it is a "killer app" that will cause many people to part with their hard-earned money (myself included).

blvdeast
Aug 7, 2006, 06:22 PM
hey, i got it.
lets say you have a folder on the dock, and you open it, it opens in the dok itself. and you can scroll left and right to pass through like iphoto speed. and you can have more then one dock and they would like stack on top/side of each other to have several "folder" open, and you do a shortcut and your dock goes normal. i know my idea sounds like a mess but i'm sure apple can polish it up
Cause you can only have so many folder icons in a folder window so i'm sure that it would be about the same.

As for the new features, I love them and can't wait to use it, but it is easy to see where Apple gets its inspiration from

Time Machine- Just an easy and fancy backup program

iChat Share Screen- Its like a VNC connection. I do it all the time between my linux desktop and ibook all the time. If you can have both screens at the same time and drag files in between to download would be awesome

Tabbed Chat Windows- Open source has been all over this for a while

Spaces- Virtual Desktops. Probably inspired by linux, and perfected

I mean its great updates and improvements, but I'm still waiting for innovation. Like expose. I want a feature to improve the use of my computer, not just awesome features

ChrisA
Aug 7, 2006, 06:25 PM
It seems to me it would make some older versions available on your HD, but then you would want to make a copy to an external HD for space reasons and for backup in case of failure. But I'm just speculating of course

I suspect what happens is you get to specifiy _where_ the backup copies are kept. I hear Steve say that it "could be either an external disk or a server". The "Or a server" part is the most interresting. That server could be in another building or even across the Internet. and then how is that server backed up???? I can imagine a small home system would use an external disk but a network of computers would share 2 or 3 backup servers with at least on of the backup servers in a remote location.

Here in the office our big file server is kept sync'd of to two other servers that are each several hundred miles away. This protects against an Earthquake or building fire. This type of automated backup was not invented by Apple. It's been done for decades but it appears Apple has made is easy, cheap and universal.

"Tinme Machine" would also have value even if there was only one disk on say a notebook. It would alow you to recover from the common problem where to make a bad edit and then saved your work and then the next day want to recover the version you maked four days ago. Now I simply make multiple copies that clutter of the folder but now Mac OSX would in effect back these for you. Then if you add an extrnal disk you are protected from a disk fairue then if you add a remote server you are protected from a house fire or theft of the system. I think it will be very configurable but have a reasonable out of the box configuration.

Next I want to see if this is integrated with software RAID

Ladybug
Aug 7, 2006, 06:28 PM
If you were picking on Mail.app's Stationery I'd probably agree with you.

None of the things that Time Machine have been compared to seem even close to what they are planning to do. Including my own VMS file versioning analogies. System Restore is not capable of restoring a single file, and particularly not within a running application. It seems kind of more like a system wide undo function when it comes to files...

B

Norton's GoBack, which was purchased from some other company, has a similar feature for restoring single files. This isn't quite the same thing, but the whole concept isn't entirely new. GoBack was introduced well before Microsoft came out with System Restore... That said, I think its a great feature to include and I'm sure I'll find many uses for it.

swingerofbirch
Aug 7, 2006, 06:28 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/accessibility.html

From this site:

Closed captioning
QuickTime currently supports closed captioning by including a text track alongside audio and video content. But improved QuickTime support will automatically display the CEA-608 closed captioning text standard in analog broadcasts in the U.S.

-----

Anyone think this means support for Closed Captioning in iTunes video downloads? As a hearing-impaired Mac-User, the lack of subtitles/captions in the TV shows is the one thing keeping me from buying a bunch of them. I hope they address this issue soon...



I am not hearing impaired, but I often watch TV and movies with the closed captioning on. I cannot really say what about it makes it more enjoyable to me--no one has ever understood why I do it, maybe it has to do with how I process information (I do have trouble listening in lecture classes, maybe a learning disability etc.), but my point is to say that I am also interested in getting closed captioning on iTunes shows.

I wrote to Apple on the feedback part of their web-site about this. I was wondering if you might know better what the law is about closed captioning. I always assumed it was required for network television shows. Is it not for network shows that appear online?

Anyhow, it's functionality I would definitely like to see.

tortoise
Aug 7, 2006, 06:32 PM
I wonder how "Time Machine" is implemented.


Probably the same way it is in scalable transactional databases that use multi-versioning concurrency protocols (e.g. PostgreSQL and Oracle). No data is over-written, and every "update" actually creates a new record version. The concept is virtually identical, except that in databases the default behavior is to delete old versions that no transaction is using any more. Such file systems are often implemented now as MVCC-style databases with file system semantics.

In fact, PostgreSQL used to have a feature many years ago called "time travel" that would let you query a consistent view of the database at any point in its past.

ChrisA
Aug 7, 2006, 06:33 PM
I keep reading stuff like this. I don't think Time Machine works with the reagular harddrive. You have to use it with an external drive.

Depends on what threat you want to protect yourself from. On Tiger the trash can protects against acidental deletes and does a usfull job. Time Machine on one drive would act like a nicer, automated trash can and might even replace the trash can. In fact I don't se a need for the trash anymore.

If a user adds a second drive he still gets the effect of the automatic trash can but now can survie a disk smoking. Wat reains to be seen is how configurable this thing is. Can he backup to a server over the Internet AND to his external drive at the same time. What if you are using a RAID? can you back that up to a second RAID? Who backs up the backup server? What is to prevent a "backup cycle" so where one small change fills up every disk on the network? That would be if "A" backed or "B" and "B" backed up "A". Does the system detect longer cycles?? How?

SWC
Aug 7, 2006, 06:35 PM
heh... they give MS so much crap for photocopying, but if anything, this is more or less taking a page out of MS's book with System Restore. Granted, it looks like it will be better, but still, MS had this kind of thing first.

This only restores system files doesn't restore documents, pictures etc.


Apple has never (as far as I am aware) held features back in their presentation before. I think they just weren't ready to be shown off yet which is no biggie it gives them some steam for macworld 07.

Time machine: a fancy front end to the type of backup that people have been doing for years. Mirra with less features?
Mail: hello outlook light
spotlight: Microsoft did it before you, you just had it integrated in the os first.
spaces: virtuedesktops but a tad fancier in presentation
dashboard: konfabulator + active desktop light
64 bit: yawn...xp 64
ical: exchange calendaring
accessibility: bleh nothing revolutionary here
ichat keynote and core animation are the only two truly unique features they introduced.

Sure it’s nice to have them all bundled neatly into the OS but for a company to base almost their entire signage around someone else copying them, there sure is a lot of prior art showing their innovation. I admit they do it in a very well integrated and visually appealing way and they even add tons of nice touches here and there but they aren't always first.
I am a Mac user, but not blind to the real world like some. Apple is like George Clooney in the smug episode of south park.

Cameront9
Aug 7, 2006, 06:35 PM
I am not hearing impaired, but I often watch TV and movies with the closed captioning on. I cannot really say what about it makes it more enjoyable to me--no one has ever understood why I do it, maybe it has to do with how I process information (I do have trouble listening in lecture classes, maybe a learning disability etc.), but my point is to say that I am also interested in getting closed captioning on iTunes shows.

I wrote to Apple on the feedback part of their web-site about this. I was wondering if you might know better what the law is about closed captioning. I always assumed it was required for network television shows. Is it not for network shows that appear online?

Anyhow, it's functionality I would definitely like to see.

Online is a grey area because it's new...

I'm not completely familiar with Closed Captioning laws. I believe all new TVs are required to have a Closed-Captioning decoder, and I think that all Network shows (and maybe cable-based, too) have to be captioned.

A quick Google gives this:
http://www.captions.org/caplaw.cfm

Which explains in more detail...

Regardless, I have seen a number of hearing-impaired users comment on the issue before. It would be so simple to implement, after all...

tobio
Aug 7, 2006, 06:38 PM
I went for enhanced mail, specifically because of the system wide todo's and notes. All the other stuff is nice, but those features are actually going to make my working life better (I use my mac for my actual work wherever possible). The system wide features of the OS are what truly makes it great for me. The sort of things that you use every day without even noticing them (until you try to do them in windows).

balamw
Aug 7, 2006, 06:39 PM
Norton's GoBack, which was purchased from some other company
Yeah, I recommended GoBack to a number of users back in the day (I think it was Adaptec that owned it at one point). No-one seemed to like it at the time.

As I and others reminisce it's a feature that has been around for well over 20 years in VMS. It's only relatively new to personal computers.

B

SWC
Aug 7, 2006, 06:42 PM
1) When I did a system restore at work, it restored everything back on the date. I lost all my work since the date.


You did something wrong then, System restore only rolls back the OS/install programs it doesn't touch user created data files.

ChrisA
Aug 7, 2006, 06:43 PM
Probably the same way it is in scalable transactional databases that use multi-versioning concurrency protocols (e.g. PostgreSQL and Oracle). No data is over-written, and every "update" actually creates a new record version.

Lots of ways it COULD be implemented. Looks at Suns new file system ZFS. It is basically "Copy on Write". With a file system you can do things even fancier then with a DBMS. For example a "block" (i-node) exists physicaly on the disk only once but it could be maped into any numbr of files. If a file in only an orderd set of block numbers then to copy a copy all you need to copy is the set of numbers which is on the order of 1000 times shorter then the data itself.

But on the other hand you _want_ the data to be physically copied if it is to be backed up to an external drive.

Some time ago Apple was talking with Sun about using ZFS in OSX but I don't think anything came out of it. I suspect Apple wrote this themselves

The problem is not that I can't figure out how Apple did this but that I can think of about a half dozen ways they could have done this.

tobio
Aug 7, 2006, 06:46 PM
The time machine features are just like salvage files on our old netware servers (before we "upgraded" to win2k3 with the quite embarressingly bad volume shadow copies). Obviously time machine is prettier, but the way it worked on netware was that all files whenever they are overwritten or deleted sit inbetween space. You can go into filer or use the right click menu to go back to previous versions of files unless you have purged them. This feature would turn off when you get down to 10% free space remaining.

If time machine lets you preview the contents of documents before you restore them, instead of going restore... is it that one? nope, try this one? nope... ah here we go found it. then hot damm thats a slick new feature

lieb39
Aug 7, 2006, 06:47 PM
The new time machine feature looks really cool - and I'm sure that a option for 'secure delete' will be there - so it's not stored in the Time Machine..

Not much chatter about the preview of Leopard Server - Sneak Preview here (http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/) - Just supporting the new Leopard..

This is interesting; how do they figure that they can get the service to a mobile phone?

http://images.apple.com/au/server/macosx/leopard/images/podcastproducertop20060807.png
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/podcastproducer.html

Discuss!

Cheers.

lieb39
Aug 7, 2006, 06:49 PM
...

If time machine lets you preview the contents of documents before you restore them, instead of going restore... is it that one? nope, try this one? nope... ah here we go found it. then hot damm thats a slick new feature

Well it looked like just a normal finder window in the Quicktime on the Apple site, so I'm sure you could open it, explore it, all that, before restoring..

Cheers!

59031
Aug 7, 2006, 06:50 PM
Is Leopard going to take advantage of the 64 bit Dual G5?

Yes, absolutely:

Enhanced 64-bit Support
Leopard delivers 64-bit power in one, universal OS. Now Cocoa and Carbon application frameworks, as well as graphics, scripting, and the rest of the system are all 64-bit. Leopard delivers 64-bit power to both Intel- and PowerPC-based Macs, so you don’t have to install separate applications for different machines. There’s only one version of Mac OS X, so you don’t need to maintain separate operating systems for different uses.

Bridge the Generation Gap
Now that the entire operating system is 64-bit, you can take full advantage of the Xeon chip in Mac Pro and Xserve. You get more processing power at up to 3.0GHz, without limiting your programs to command-line applications, servers, and computation engines. From G3 to Xeon, from MacBook to Xserve, there is just one Leopard.

dejo
Aug 7, 2006, 06:51 PM
Would Dashcode be considered part of the "Enhanced Dashboard" choice?

kiwi-in-uk
Aug 7, 2006, 06:51 PM
... as of present the trash can will not allow you to selectively undelete a file?



What?

Supa_Fly
Aug 7, 2006, 06:52 PM
Excellent SHOW Apple EXCELLENT!

I think I just creamed my shorts.

THATS the last straw NO MORE EXCUSES for not owning a MAC FULL Out.
the piggy bank is now gonna be frugal!

the.snitch
Aug 7, 2006, 06:58 PM
Holy crap, Time machine looks amazing! I'm happy with all the other features, about on-par with what I expect. That french dude in the presentation really made Microsoft look like fools - infact, just this iteration of OS X seems to add more features than Vista adds over XP. I'm looking forward to leopard, and I wonder what the "Top Secret" features are, that are yet-to-be-revealed.

aswitcher
Aug 7, 2006, 06:58 PM
Norton's GoBack, which was purchased from some other company, has a similar feature for restoring single files. This isn't quite the same thing, but the whole concept isn't entirely new. GoBack was introduced well before Microsoft came out with System Restore... That said, I think its a great feature to include and I'm sure I'll find many uses for it.

GoBack was key to my last 2 years as a PC owner.

Ladybug
Aug 7, 2006, 06:59 PM
Yeah, I recommended GoBack to a number of users back in the day (I think it was Adaptec that owned it at one point). No-one seemed to like it at the time.

As I and others reminisce it's a feature that has been around for well over 20 years in VMS. It's only relatively new to personal computers.

B

Great info Balamw, your memory is much better than mine :D

I also used GoBack for a short period. The problem with it that I had, was how slow it actually made my computer. I haven't used it in recent years so I really can't say how well it progressed after version 2 I think it was.

JakeM.
Aug 7, 2006, 06:59 PM
Did anyone else think it was odd that many of the features seemed so poorly presented. We didn't actually get to see anything new in Spotlight. And no new features of the actual Dashboard were even discussed.

It just doesn't seem that Leopard is as far along as Tiger was when previewed even though Leopard is suppose to ship in the spring just as Tiger did.

chasemac
Aug 7, 2006, 07:00 PM
Yes, absolutely:

Enhanced 64-bit Support
Leopard delivers 64-bit power in one, universal OS. Now Cocoa and Carbon application frameworks, as well as graphics, scripting, and the rest of the system are all 64-bit. Leopard delivers 64-bit power to both Intel- and PowerPC-based Macs, so you don’t have to install separate applications for different machines. There’s only one version of Mac OS X, so you don’t need to maintain separate operating systems for different uses.

Bridge the Generation Gap
Now that the entire operating system is 64-bit, you can take full advantage of the Xeon chip in Mac Pro and Xserve. You get more processing power at up to 3.0GHz, without limiting your programs to command-line applications, servers, and computation engines. From G3 to Xeon, from MacBook to Xserve, there is just one Leopard.

Excellent! Thanks for the info!:)

swingerofbirch
Aug 7, 2006, 07:07 PM
I have two questions.

Do you think that one of the top secret features they didn't show was a unified interface? Because the UIs they showed looked just as hodge-podged as Tiger, ie iCal and Finder still brushed metal and Mail is still plastic. They talk about Microsoft copying Aqua, but I can't think of one app that is aqua anymore! What does Aqua look like?

Second, did the developers get a beta of Leopard? If so, won't we be hearing about whatever top secret features they didn't show? Surely one of the 4200 is a snitch!

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 07:08 PM
sadly I cant by any more letters to complete a better signature.!

You should at least "by" a "u"... (and maybe an apostrophe) :D

Tomaz
Aug 7, 2006, 07:10 PM
Did anyone else think it was odd that many of the features seemed so poorly presented. We didn't actually get to see anything new in Spotlight. And no new features of the actual Dashboard were even discussed.

It just doesn't seem that Leopard is as far along as Tiger was when previewed even though Leopard is suppose to ship in the spring just as Tiger did.

Maybe they moved the spotlight bar to the top left and don't want MS to do the same before the Vista release ;)

bankshot
Aug 7, 2006, 07:12 PM
As others have said, Time Machine is likely either a direct port of Sun's ZFS, or an equivalent implementation in HFS+. Actually, that's an interesting point -- if it's ZFS, it'll require a reformat in order to use it. If they did it themselves in HFS+, that's a lot more useful for anything besides brand new machines. Though ZFS is a much more modern design, despite all the things Apple's done to extend HFS+ in recent years (journaling, case-sensitive option, etc). Might be good to make a clean break and move forward.

Anyway, no real surprise there, unless you count the fancy glitz that Apple put on top of it. And of course, who's surprised when they do that? ;)


What I'd like to know more about is Spotlight. It was one of the most disappointing features in Tiger for me. It was supposed to revolutionize how you use the computer, but it turned out to be extremely slow and almost useless to me. I suggested from day one -- in fact from the day Steve demoed Tiger at WWDC in 2004 -- that Spotlight should not only index your online drives, but also network drives and offline media (backup CDs and DVDs). The latter two are far more useful to me personally, as I have data scattered across several different computers and on dozens of backups.

According to today's keynote, Apple has finally added support for network drives. But I wonder -- does this mean only other Leopard Macs, or any shared drive that the Mac can connect to? Can I index a Windows shared drive from my Mac, or even a Unix NFS mount? Or is it only other Macs? Once again, if it's limited to other Leopard Macs, then this would be useless for a lot of people (mostly ME! :D).

Also, will they add indexing of offline media? There's no mention of it on the Leopard Spotlight page. Do I still have time to suggest it (again)? Hmmm....


Finally, gotta wonder what those "top secret" features are, and why so secret? Maybe they might not get done in time for release, and therefore Apple doesn't want to look bad like MS pulling Vista features left and right? Surely there's not enough time for a competitor to steal the idea and get it out before Apple does? Even if "next spring" means early June... That's no time at all in large scale software projects.

clevin
Aug 7, 2006, 07:13 PM
I keep reading stuff like this. I don't think Time Machine works with the reagular harddrive. You have to use it with an external drive.
thats a kinda harsh requirement, i would think it will allow you to choose local/external hard drive/network server.
Buts till, it will cost lot of space, no matter where the space is from.

SWC
Aug 7, 2006, 07:36 PM
This is interesting; how do they figure that they can get the service to a mobile phone?



Discuss!

Cheers.


Quicktime. they have had mobile phone support for a while. since h.264 i beleive.

eMagius
Aug 7, 2006, 07:36 PM
As others have said, Time Machine is likely either a direct port of Sun's ZFS, or an equivalent implementation in HFS+.

I don't think we can say exactly how things work underneath. Windows 2003 offers differential snapshots without making massive changes to NTFS, for example. It would be neat if Apple did throw its weight behind ZFS, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen with 10.5.

According to today's keynote, Apple has finally added support for network drives. But I wonder -- does this mean only other Leopard Macs, or any shared drive that the Mac can connect to? Can I index a Windows shared drive from my Mac, or even a Unix NFS mount? Or is it only other Macs? Once again, if it's limited to other Leopard Macs, then this would be useless for a lot of people (mostly ME! :D).

I don't see how this would work for anything other than other Leopard (maybe Tiger, with a software update) Macs. Spotlight has to have the indexes pre-generated, after all.

Finally, gotta wonder what those "top secret" features are, and why so secret?

Call me a cynic, but I'd say Apple either hasn't implemented them yet or hasn't thought of them yet.

SiliconAddict
Aug 7, 2006, 07:41 PM
The Meh was strong in that keynote. I was looking for something explosive and found a snap bang that someone threw to the ground. Short of those top secret features :rolleyes: being something earth shattering Leopard looks to be another micro update to OS X. While any forward momentum in the OS is a good thing what we've seen of Leopard does not suggest that gulf that will be closed with Vista (After SP1 & 2 that is.) is going to be widened again with Leopard.
The things dumped into the OS are simply more addon crap. That isn't to say adding new features aren't welcome but the time is right for a serious revamp to the UI of OS X.
I'm not happy about this development. It seems as if real forward momentum in OS X has all but stalled. Like most of Apple now a days they aren't taking chances anymore with their wares be it software or hardware. They seem to focus on finding previously used ideas, slap a new coat of paint on it, buff it up to a nice shine, then give it some "fun" name and call it innovation.
Apple may have been in decline in the 90's but at least that Apple took chances. Took risks on new and innovative hardware. I want the old Apple back. . . to a point. More then anything I want to get excited in a product that is revolutionary not evolutionary. :(




Call me a cynic, but I'd say Apple either hasn't implemented them yet or hasn't thought of them yet.

Or they are so buggy at this point they aren't ready to demo them. That is my guess. This crap about not wanting MS to copy. Sorry but Windows is feature locked at this point. There is simply NO way for Microsoft to roll out anything new unless its such a minor thing that it would be easy to do. I really wish Apple wouldn't spit in my face and call it rain.

macintel4me
Aug 7, 2006, 07:46 PM
thats a kinda harsh requirement, i would think it will allow you to choose local/external hard drive/network server.
Buts till, it will cost lot of space, no matter where the space is from.
From the Apple website...

Backup Disk: Change the drive or volume you’re backing up to. Or back up to a Mac OS X server computer.

rolandf
Aug 7, 2006, 07:47 PM
Good lord. Whatever happened to simplicity? It looked like a three ring circus up there today.

Now come on. Time machine? With a picture of outer space and stars? This looks so gimmicky. They are getting to be like Microsoft and just adding new features instead of making things easier and streamlined. Why not just improve the Backup program that comes with .Mac or include it for free? Do we really need another interface? To me it looks like form over function.

Not very innovative so-far. The Intel change took the OS's soul and the inspiration. Very disappointing. Mail, completely overloaded, like MS office.

No mentioning of resolution independent GUI, etc. There are a couple of UNIX OS's out there that are more innovative.

All in all, Apple seems on the wrong track.

Liebo11
Aug 7, 2006, 07:49 PM
does upgrading to leopard cost money for tiger users?

SiliconAddict
Aug 7, 2006, 07:50 PM
Not very innovative so-far. The Intel change took the OS's soul and the inspiration.


Give me a fracking break. Intel has NOTHING to do with this. NOTHING. I wish PPC fanbois would just give it up. Soon they will be claiming that ozone depletion is due too Intel chips.

does upgrading to leopard cost money for tiger users?


Yes.

Liebo11
Aug 7, 2006, 07:58 PM
great . . . i just get a new macbook with tiger now i'm gonna have to get leopard . . . how much will this put me back?

SWC
Aug 7, 2006, 08:01 PM
great . . . i just get a new macbook with tiger now i'm gonna have to get leopard . . . how much will this put me back?

$129 is history proves true

jackc
Aug 7, 2006, 08:02 PM
great . . . i just get a new macbook with tiger now i'm gonna have to get leopard . . . how much will this put me back?

We're talking about at least 6 months before Leopard, it'll cost you $129 I think without an edu discount.

iMikeT
Aug 7, 2006, 08:10 PM
I don't believe that we have to wait until Spring 2007.:mad:

Oh well. Wait or not, Apple will still be way ahead of Microsoft!

I loved the Vista bashing. Better yet, it came from a French guy!:D

Gurutech
Aug 7, 2006, 08:16 PM
Yes, absolutely:

Enhanced 64-bit Support
Leopard delivers 64-bit power in one, universal OS. Now Cocoa and Carbon application frameworks, as well as graphics, scripting, and the rest of the system are all 64-bit. Leopard delivers 64-bit power to both Intel- and PowerPC-based Macs, so you don’t have to install separate applications for different machines. There’s only one version of Mac OS X, so you don’t need to maintain separate operating systems for different uses.

Bridge the Generation Gap
Now that the entire operating system is 64-bit, you can take full advantage of the Xeon chip in Mac Pro and Xserve. You get more processing power at up to 3.0GHz, without limiting your programs to command-line applications, servers, and computation engines. From G3 to Xeon, from MacBook to Xserve, there is just one Leopard.

Wait. Does this mean that the Leopard doesn't support current MBP or MB? the ones that use 32 bit Yonah based Core Duo CPU.

digitalbiker
Aug 7, 2006, 08:17 PM
Give me a fracking break. Intel has NOTHING to do with this. NOTHING.


Well I wouldn't say "Nothing" as obviously it required a lot of programmer time to move the OS to Intel, create the new XCode compiler, create & debug rosetta, re-write all of the iLife, and Pro-Apps offered by Apple, etc. etc.

But it didn't have anything to do with stifling innovation. I think Apple is just running out of innovative ideas. It happens companies go through dry spells.

Really, I haven't seen much innovation out of Apple since the move from OS 9 to OS X. That was a major leap. Automator actually has a lot of potential but so far I think it is being under used. As far as the GUI is concerned, I think there are a lot of things that could be revamped to improve that area.

By the way has anybody tried Quiksilver for OS X. It is spectacular. I recently downloaded it, freeware, and have been loving this addition to the OS. Not only does it replace launchbar, spotlight, and others but has a nice verb feature that lets you quickly do all sorts of things and have access to OS X services under the hood.

digitalbiker
Aug 7, 2006, 08:19 PM
Wait. Does this mean that the Leopard doesn't support current MBP or MB? the ones that use 32 bit Yonah based Core Duo CPU.

No, it doesn't mean that at all. It works with both 32 and 64 bit CPU's. The only thing you won't be able to do is run 64 bit apps in 64 bit mode.

61132
Aug 7, 2006, 08:22 PM
gosh, the finder looks the same :( I dont want the brushed metal anywhere anymore!! Also, they should just integrate address book/ical/mail into one app!!!

swingerofbirch
Aug 7, 2006, 08:29 PM
Well I wouldn't say "Nothing" as obviously it required a lot of programmer time to move the OS to Intel, create the new XCode compiler, create & debug rosetta, re-write all of the iLife, and Pro-Apps offered by Apple, etc. etc.

But it didn't have anything to do with stifling innovation. I think Apple is just running out of innovative ideas. It happens companies go through dry spells.

Really, I haven't seen much innovation out of Apple since the move from OS 9 to OS X. That was a major leap. Automator actually has a lot of potential but so far I think it is being under used. As far as the GUI is concerned, I think there are a lot of things that could be revamped to improve that area.



I agree, although I wouldn't phrase it the same way. I don't think they have run out of ideas per se (a star wars themed back-up service is certainly an idea), but it seems that they feel the need to add more ideas instead of improving what they have.

The earlier versions of Mac OS X were focused on improving the UI and frankly making the system bearable to use (that's why I think it's not quite fair they keep mentioning how many updates they have had......up until 10.2, Mac OS X was pretty slow).

Apple wanted to create a beautiful, elegant, modern OS. I remember how I fawned over the pre-release Mac OS X screen-shots. But, in my opinion, Mac OS X has gotten uglier and is not on track based on today's keynote to getting better. Just look at a safari window juxtaposed against the menu bar. It's complete incongruence. I think Apple's third party developers have lately been making nicer looking apps than Apple has. The screenshots I have seen of Vista look cleaner than Mac OS X.

Bring back Aqua!

DeathChill
Aug 7, 2006, 08:33 PM
Well I wouldn't say "Nothing" as obviously it required a lot of programmer time to move the OS to Intel, create the new XCode compiler, create & debug rosetta, re-write all of the iLife, and Pro-Apps offered by Apple, etc. etc.


Eh, they didn't create Rosetta, Transitive did. The creation of XCode was already done, they just added a package so Intel compiling was possible. They didn't rewrite all of iLife or any of the pro-apps, did they? All they did was fix anything that relied on PowerPC in order to make them Universal.

However, I want to know if the developers are getting a copy of Leopard within the next few days!

Zazaban
Aug 7, 2006, 08:42 PM
all the pictures i've seen of leopard show a unified interface :D

Major Majors
Aug 7, 2006, 08:45 PM
I had no idea what the "open in dashboard" image was for, but I called it out on the Apple Discussion board 9 months ago. Apparently this has been in the works for Safari for QUITE some time

http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=987980#987980

kcmac
Aug 7, 2006, 08:54 PM
I don't believe that we have to wait until Spring 2007.:mad:

Oh well. Wait or not, Apple will still be way ahead of Microsoft!

I loved the Vista bashing. Better yet, it came from a French guy!:D

The French have been particularly strong lately. First Landis, Now M$. What happened to the white towel? :D ....sorry couldn't resist.

fatfish
Aug 7, 2006, 09:06 PM
When I first saw this feature I thought great. I do regular back ups, but some of my AW docs keep corrupting (probably something to do with keep duplicating the same old document and modifying rather than starting anew). Time Machine will help me no end. I was also thrilled that windows had nothing like this........ until I read through these posts.

Then it seemed very similar to what was coming in Vista and I felt a bit dissapointed that Apple had made such a point about M$ copying them, but seemed to do the same themselves with Time Machine.

However on closer examination this is not the case and my confidence in Apple's innovative skills is restored.

Firstly, there has always been back up and restore apps, so if you want to take this copying thing to a ridiculous level, of course you can do. Copying in my book is when an app does and looks the same (just like the screenshots in the presentation, safari RSS/IE7 RSS, ical/M$ calender etc). It appears to me Time Machine does much more than anything before it and has it's own unique UI to boot.

Secondly, I would imagine work on Time machine started long before a beta of Vista was released, even if the two utilities were more or less identical it would be coincidence not copying.

Thirdly, it seems quite clear that Vista's restore (whatever it's called) will not do what Time machine will do. Ultimately you may well be able to restore any deleted or modified file in Vista, but it doesn't appear to occur with the same ease or functionality.

If I create a file, modify it and move it several times, rename it, convert it, modify it some more, move it several times and finally delete it, I rather suspect it would be an absolute nightmare to recover in Vista, whereas it seems that Time Machine would have little problem.

I don't see how it is possible in Vista to perform the recovery with either the same simplicity or pizzaz as Time Machine. Perhaps if M$ had not abandoned their intended file system for Vista it might have been possible, but as it is I doubt it.

Finally it does not appear that Vista has the option to restore within a database application (i.e. iphoto, mail, address book), no doubt if you understand how a particular database works, the possibility exists to restore a particular photo, but let's not pretend it will be easy or anywhere near the experience of time machine.

And finally, finally, although I agree the UI may appear a little childish, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes it so easy to use.

akac
Aug 7, 2006, 09:12 PM
Time Machine won't mean much when the HD fails. Back that azz up!

Actually - that's the exact scenario Apple talked about. HD goes down and with TIme Machine you can get all your stuff back. It backs up the system, files, apps - everything. That's almost verbatim from Apple's mouth.

tortoise
Aug 7, 2006, 09:14 PM
Lots of ways it COULD be implemented. Looks at Suns new file system ZFS. It is basically "Copy on Write". With a file system you can do things even fancier then with a DBMS. For example a "block" (i-node) exists physicaly on the disk only once but it could be maped into any numbr of files. If a file in only an orderd set of block numbers then to copy a copy all you need to copy is the set of numbers which is on the order of 1000 times shorter then the data itself.


Ahem, a modern relational database system can do everything a file system can. In fact, they are both databases, but optimized for different tasks and slightly different semantics. The same behaviors can be achieved with both; it is a matter of design bias, not capability. File systems like ZFS actually converge on normal MVCC database behavior, which durably journals all writes but with more flexibility with respect to atomicity and version cleanup than a file system. File system semantics, even versioning ones, are more primitive and less capable than database ones, but with substantially increased performance over what would be possible from an MVCC database for the same task.

Same theory, different optimizations. The balancing act has always been between the power fully ACID-compliant MVCC semantics and the basic speed of simple file system semantics. Apple and Sun are burning some excess performance capacity to deliver features that are closer to the database ideal.

fatfish
Aug 7, 2006, 09:18 PM
I had hoped for the ability to link files and folders with contacts in my address book, I can only hope this is one of those top secret items.

I would also have liked some way of sharing my appointments in ical with the windows people I am meeting, to date ical will send them an email with an ical attachment, but they are unable to do anything with it.

Someone please tell me I can already do these things or that I have a chance of doing them in X.5

VanNess
Aug 7, 2006, 09:24 PM
Alright, I'll take these one by one...

Time Machine: Nice feature, nice implementation, nice eye-candy - but I don't see it as a heavily used feature. I mean, you should hope that it doesn't have to be heavily used. I think I can count the number of instances on one hand where I deleted a file that I regretted deleting later, and I've never screwed up my install to the point where I would need to revert the system back to a previous state. Others may have had different experiences from me and this is a nice "insurance policy" utility to have, but overall I don't see it as having a major impact on the majority of Mac users in day to day usage.

Enhanced Mail: This is nice, but html mail composition was promised for Tiger and that turned into, for all practical intents and purposes, vaporware. Now here it is front and center in Leopard. Grrrrrr. (Now you know why they called it Tiger, lol)

Enhanced iChat: Nifty new features, but here's the deal: Apple needs to look beyond Cupertino and survey the IM landscape that exists outside of the US, because it's huge. Most PC-using kids and twenty-somethings overseas live and breath and depend on two kinds of software, an internet browser and an IM client. Overseas, Yahoo and MS Messenger are all that's used and the features that are provided by those clients are heavily depended upon by the overseas youth culture because they were born and raised on that stuff. If iChat (or any other client) at a minimum can't provide support for Yahoo and MS Messenger protocols with absolute one for one feature parity with PC's, you can forget about selling a Mac (or at least the Mac OS) to these kids, because it's just an absolute deal-killer without IM support that they are used to. The IM culture overseas is just that big, that integrated, and they (along with their IM friends) don't use AOL and they don't use .Mac and they aren't going to. The IM scene overseas and it's dependence on MS Messenger and Yahoo is practically a youth culture in and of itself now and ignoring that is simply bad business for Apple at this point.

Spaces: This one looks pretty cool

Enhanced Dashboard: The only thing that really needs to be enhanced with Dashboard is widget collection organization. With the sheer number of widgets that are out now, hammering on the little arrows in the Widget Bar and watching bar after bar after bar of widgets fly by while you're searching for a particular widget that you may or may not remember the name of just isn't working. The Spaces (virtual desktop) feature may come to the rescue here if different collections of widgets can be maintained on separate desktops, but is seems like Spaces is overkill just for that. Dashboard needs it's own "Spaces" (multiple Dashboard instances) or a better way of managing large widget collections.

Enhanced Spotlight: Its all good

Enhanced iCal: Okay...what else?

More Accessible: This is actually quite good as I suspect disabled access to computers will become more of a focus as time goes on particularly with disabled or handicapped employees. So it's great that Apple is leading the charge here.

Core Animation: Another avenue to the treasure chest of Apple OS eye-candy for third-party devs, just in case Core Image wasn't floating anyone's boat

Increased 64-bit support: Which will be great whenever we see increased 64-bit applications showing up.

But the overall impression is, so what? Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think the so-called "secret" unseen, unknown features are the ones that will really matter for most users, what was shown today is by and large fluff. If Jobs says Apple isn't going to reveal some of Leopard's features for fear of MS pulling one of it's copy jobs, then they must be fairly significant features worth protecting until the last minute. So what matters with Leopard isn't what was seen today, what really matters is what wasn't seen.

tortoise
Aug 7, 2006, 09:26 PM
Well I wouldn't say "Nothing" as obviously it required a lot of programmer time to move the OS to Intel, create the new XCode compiler, create & debug rosetta, re-write all of the iLife, and Pro-Apps offered by Apple, etc. etc.


This should be pretty trivial for the most part, mostly just a rebuild of the code base plus a rewrite of some tiny core bits that will be in assembly code (like locking primitives) and a few drivers. The normal applications should require approximately no porting effort at all.

I would point out that the Intel compiler for OSX is much better than the PPC compiler for the same. I found a couple extremely irritating compiler bugs under XCode PPC, while I have never even seen a bug in contemporaneous versions of GCC for Intel. This by itself is worth something. Current versions of GCC for x86 and AMD64 are on par with the best commercial compilers. GCC for PPC was a usable but inferior pile of dog poo that gave me many problems.

Zadillo
Aug 7, 2006, 09:27 PM
gosh, the finder looks the same :( I dont want the brushed metal anywhere anymore!! Also, they should just integrate address book/ical/mail into one app!!!

Did you miss the part at the beginning where Steve Jobs made it pretty clear that a lot of the biggest secrets aren't going to be revealed yet?

Other people have confirmed that the Finders in the Leopard preview is the old one, and that the "new" Finder is being held back for the time being until it is closer to shipping.

So, it's very likely the reason the Finder looks the same is because what we are seeing publically now IS still the same, and we won't see the new Finder until later.

-Zadillo

BillyShears
Aug 7, 2006, 09:32 PM
all the pictures i've seen of leopard show a unified interface :D

Safari appears to be brushed metal. Go here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/dashboard.html) and go to about 1/6 of the way through.

icloud
Aug 7, 2006, 09:34 PM
This preview of Leopard seemed really like a glaze over of some "fun" little advancements, it did not look polished at all...to all those dissapointed in what leopard has to offer, not to be punny, but steve has barely let the cat out of the bag

tonne more to come

Zadillo
Aug 7, 2006, 09:34 PM
Safari appears to be brushed metal. Go here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/dashboard.html) and go to about 1/6 of the way through.

Perhaps sometime between now and Spring 2007 they might find the time to change that.

fatfish
Aug 7, 2006, 09:35 PM
Actually - that's the exact scenario Apple talked about. HD goes down and with TIme Machine you can get all your stuff back. It backs up the system, files, apps - everything. That's almost verbatim from Apple's mouth.

I think the people who are complaining are likely using a notebook and don't permanently attach it to an external HD. I have to say I have little sympathy with this argument, if you run a notebook you need to have some back up system in place and should be prepared to regularly connect to either an external HD or a desktop.

Personally I have a little script that ensures that when I have a wireless connection to my home network an automatic incremental back up to an external HD connected to my network is performed in the background.

I did note some mention of a sync in respect of time machine, so hopefully X.5 will take care of occasional connections to an HD or desktop.

Time machine however seems to have 2 functions, restoring deleted files and full back ups. Even if you don't have access to a desktop or external HD, Time Machine will still perform retreval of lost and deleted files within a functioning notebook.

Zadillo
Aug 7, 2006, 09:35 PM
This preview of Leopard seemed really like a glaze over of some "fun" little advancements, it did not look polished at all...to all those dissapointed in what leopard has to offer, not to be punny, but steve has barely let the cat out of the bag

tonne more to come

I don't know, I thought Spaces and Time Machine looked very polished, personally. Spaces in particular is one of those things that I actually think will be genuinely useful (like Expose before it), and I like that it seems to be an even more useful implementation of the virtual desktops concept than what I've seen in Linux.

shawnce
Aug 7, 2006, 09:42 PM
Running the preview now... some nice developer level stuff that I cannot ebelish on however beyond what was talked about in the keynote.

The new Core Animation stuff looks simple yet powerful and will increase the visual effects and feedback that application can do with only minor work on their part.

Also new Xcode Tool capabilities are well... great to have (need to review what is available publicly before I can comment more).

Next spring Apple will have a good answer to Vista with little disruption to end users and developers (unlike Vista).

AvSRoCkCO1067
Aug 7, 2006, 09:42 PM
I don't know, I thought Spaces and Time Machine looked very polished, personally. Spaces in particular is one of those things that I actually think will be genuinely useful (like Expose before it), and I like that it seems to be an even more useful implementation of the virtual desktops concept than what I've seen in Linux.

I hope that Spaces will integrate nicely with the Mighty Mouse...somehow...

fatfish
Aug 7, 2006, 09:49 PM
I've seen many posts calling for a unified mail, address and calender app, this is so 2003, please Apple take no notice, I want seperate apps.

Simplicity is what makes Apple software what it is. I would however wish to see tighter integration, such as exists between itunes, iphoto, iDVD, iMovie, Garageband and iWeb.

I would also like to see the address book integrated with pages. (but that's another topic)

icloud
Aug 7, 2006, 09:53 PM
I don't know, I thought Spaces and Time Machine looked very polished, personally. Spaces in particular is one of those things that I actually think will be genuinely useful (like Expose before it), and I like that it seems to be an even more useful implementation of the virtual desktops concept than what I've seen in Linux.


I was refering to things such as the finishing touches, ala unified interface and what not. I remember seeing how much dashboard evolved in the previews to what it is today...dramatically different

BillyShears
Aug 7, 2006, 10:03 PM
Perhaps sometime between now and Spring 2007 they might find the time to change that.

Right, but certainly not "all the pictures" show a unified interface, which is what I was replying to. I'd like if it were unified, though.

Edot
Aug 7, 2006, 10:11 PM
Computers were invented ages ago... I see nothing new. :rolleyes:

fatfish
Aug 7, 2006, 10:17 PM
Any ideas on whether we will be able to make our own stationary templates in mail ???

DeathChill
Aug 7, 2006, 10:18 PM
Running the preview now... some nice developer level stuff that I cannot ebelish on however beyond what was talked about in the keynote.

The new Core Animation stuff looks simple yet powerful and will increase the visual effects and feedback that application can do with only minor work on their part.

Also new Xcode Tool capabilities are well... great to have (need to review what is available publicly before I can comment more).

Next spring Apple will have a good answer to Vista with little disruption to end users and developers (unlike Vista).
So it's fair to say that developers have received their copy of Leopard?

Bradley W
Aug 7, 2006, 10:24 PM
_

Bradley W
Aug 7, 2006, 10:27 PM
_

NickPill
Aug 7, 2006, 10:55 PM
Hi, this is just a question to the developers. Did you already get 10.5? I have the ADC Select membership but can´t find 10.5 in the download section. Please send me an email where I can find it. Thank you!

rockthecasbah
Aug 7, 2006, 11:07 PM
i liked all of the features but picked Time Machine because it just makes it so much easier to back up. Who cares if it isn't the most original thign ever? It's easy to use, integrated, and useful. :)

Peace
Aug 7, 2006, 11:14 PM
Hi, this is just a question to the developers. Did you already get 10.5? I have the ADC Select membership but can´t find 10.5 in the download section. Please send me an email where I can find it. Thank you!

It's not yet available to ADC Select/Premier members that didn't go to todays keynote.

I'd kinda like to know myself since I couldn't attend.

bousozoku
Aug 7, 2006, 11:25 PM
Hi, this is just a question to the developers. Did you already get 10.5? I have the ADC Select membership but can´t find 10.5 in the download section. Please send me an email where I can find it. Thank you!

It seems as though I received previous distributions 3-4 weeks after WWDC but they weren't downloadable to Select members, only available in a physical package.

brepublican
Aug 7, 2006, 11:28 PM
Woah! This is heavy stuff. Lot of eye candy in Core Animation :cool:

Peace
Aug 7, 2006, 11:32 PM
Woah! This is heavy stuff. Lot of eye candy in Core Animation :cool:

Did you go to WWDC or D/L Leopard?

shawnce
Aug 7, 2006, 11:32 PM
So it's fair to say that developers have received their copy of Leopard? Folks that attend WWDC get the Mac OS X Leopord preview and ADC members with seed keys will likely get it within a couple weeks to a month.

iKenny
Aug 7, 2006, 11:37 PM
Well I for one was kind of disappointed. Leopard is sort of Apple's chance to prove they can out-Vista Vista, and I'm not really sure what we saw today does it. I've been following Vista somewhat closely, and it really does catch Windows up to OS X in terms of features and prettiness.

I really think most of the features shown off today are already present in Windows (I've definitely heard about all of them before) or will be in Vista, and it's too bad Apple didn't have anything truly innovative to show us. Hopefully those secret features are something good...

The other thing that has me a little concerned is the huge amount of Vista-bashing that went on. I feel like if Leopard at this point were truly better than Vista, they'd be silent about Vista entirely and let the new system speak for itself. That would be really slick. That's not what happened however, and instead there was a lot of "look what Vista copied from us" and "check out how much better Leopard is." What I saw today, though, makes the former statement sound whiney and the latter sound foolish, since in my eyes, in terms of features, they're about on-par with each other.

I really hope Apple pulls it together. They've got to do this right, because come next year, most of the myriad reasons for switching to a Mac will be nullified by Vista.

BTW: whoever this "Platform Experience" guy is, get him off the stage and go back to Steve.

Agathon
Aug 7, 2006, 11:45 PM
The whining seems misplaced. I imagine that the main reason for the "top secret" stuff has to do with media exposure. I'm guessing that Apple wants to wait until the release of Vista, so that comparisons get made right as Microsoft's information campaign ramps up. That would be good tactical business strategy.

The alternative is that Apple doesn't have anything to show, or at least nothing that works, and just pretended. Well, I think that we can discount this. Improved Spotlight was mentioned, but not demoed IIRC, so it obviously isn't quite up to speed yet.


Time Machine: the attempts to say this was done before with VMS, System Restore or Shadow Copy are pathetic, and those who made the comparison should be ashamed of themselves. Of course it isn't a completely new idea: it's been something that people have wanted to do for years. As far as I can see, Apple is the company that first demonstrated a practical version of this feature that an ordinary person could use. I predict that Microsoft's implementation will be a complicated mess that regular users find opaque and will not use (just like System Restore is).

And quit complaining about the Star Trek thing. It's obvious that they made it look over the top flashy so that there would be absolutely no confusion on the user's part.


But there are some people who will whine about everything....

kugino
Aug 7, 2006, 11:45 PM
Well I for one was kind of disappointed. Leopard is sort of Apple's chance to prove they can out-Vista Vista, and I'm not really sure what we saw today does it. I've been following Vista somewhat closely, and it really does catch Windows up to OS X in terms of features and prettiness.

I really think most of the features shown off today are already present in Windows (I've definitely heard about all of them before) or will be in Vista, and it's too bad Apple didn't have anything truly innovative to show us. Hopefully those secret features are something good...

The other thing that has me a little concerned is the huge amount of Vista-bashing that went on. I feel like if Leopard at this point were truly better than Vista, they'd be silent about Vista entirely and let the new system speak for itself. That would be really slick. That's not what happened however, and instead there was a lot of "look what Vista copied from us" and "check out how much better Leopard is." What I saw today, though, makes the former statement sound whiney and the latter sound foolish, since in my eyes, in terms of features, they're about on-par with each other.

I really hope Apple pulls it together. They've got to do this right, because come next year, most of the myriad reasons for switching to a Mac will be nullified by Vista.

BTW: whoever this "Platform Experience" guy is, get him off the stage and go back to Steve.
hmmm, most of the features are already in windows? what version of windows do you have? are you from the future? and, ummm, who knows what's going to be in vista because it keeps changing...even what you see now may not make the final cut. to say that the two OSs are the same because they both have the same features is akin to saying that a yugo and a mercedes are both the same because they both have four wheels and an engine. look, there are things that vista will have that osx will lack...there are things in osx that vista will lack. neither os will be perfect. still, os x is great because of its underlying architecture and not only b/c of this feature or that feature.

and most people will not be making their buying decision on which os is better...the greater selling point on the mac is boot camp and booting windows on the mac. most people aren't going to care what os is better.

turtlebud
Aug 7, 2006, 11:47 PM
does anyone see a potential for a security breach with the ichat feature that lets you take over someone's desktop? (the purpose is of course to collaborate or to help them fix a problem)

NickPill
Aug 7, 2006, 11:56 PM
It's not yet available to ADC Select/Premier members that didn't go to todays keynote.

I'd kinda like to know myself since I couldn't attend.

Thanks for the info. But I can´t believe Apple will not offer 10.5 for downloading. It sounded like that every ADC Select and Premier member would get a copy immediately... Too bad I couldn´t make it this year to the WWDC.

shrimpdesign
Aug 7, 2006, 11:56 PM
does anyone see a potential for a security breach with the ichat feature that lets you take over someone's desktop? (the purpose is of course to collaborate or to help them fix a problem)
I think it's an invitation .. like "Come share my screen with me" not "Let me use your screen"

So basically you have to allow your screen to be shared with someone you don't trust ... which is generally a bad idea anyways.

If there's a problem, you can always unplug the computer.

VanNess
Aug 8, 2006, 12:02 AM
Running the preview now... some nice developer level stuff that I cannot ebelish on however beyond what was talked about in the keynote...Next spring Apple will have a good answer to Vista with little disruption to end users and developers (unlike Vista).

All of a sudden Macworld 07 just got a lot more interesting. :)

jwhitnah
Aug 8, 2006, 12:34 AM
anyone else a little underwhelmed with today's WWDC? There isn't anything that really jumped out at me besides the Mac Pro.

Mac Pro looks very nice. Now I am sure they will uodate their LCDs, so I do not want one/two and Leopard is a very modest refinement. They should have had system restore like MS years ago. Not a compelling upgrade, but I will buy it. Sigh.

Bosunsfate
Aug 8, 2006, 12:39 AM
:p

As I had said many times before, we were not going to see just upgraded features. Rather the show stoppers are something no one had thought of before.

You guys and Apple are really doing a sweet job....and yea take the rest of the year off.....but then again, I need Leopard shipped, so get that out first. ;)

Bosunsfate
Aug 8, 2006, 12:46 AM
Well I for one was kind of disappointed. Leopard is sort of Apple's chance to prove they can out-Vista Vista, and I'm not really sure what we saw today does it. I've been following Vista somewhat closely, and it really does catch Windows up to OS X in terms of features and prettiness.

I really think most of the features shown off today are already present in Windows (I've definitely heard about all of them before) or will be in Vista, and it's too bad Apple didn't have anything truly innovative to show us. Hopefully those secret features are something good...

I have seen plenty of beta Vista versions and they have nothing like Spaces or Time Machine....or frankly anything I saw today.

Why don't you point out something specific rather blather on with such nonsense.

Super Dave
Aug 8, 2006, 12:50 AM
Also a very good point, so I need a bigger main HD for my MacBookPro (the new Seagate 160GB becomes interesting) for Time Machine, but i still need to back the hole thing up to an external HD in case of a HD crash (I had 2 in the last 8 months!). So Tine Machine doesn't make Backups obsolete, I didn't even think of that up to now. Hmmm..

Time Machine is backup, it's not for on the same drive (or nothing implied it was).

David :cool:

Super Dave
Aug 8, 2006, 12:54 AM
Part of the "Top Secret" stuff has got to be a new Finder... that Finder looked so boring during the Keynote... it just stood out. This release will have a two year gap and that means we are bound to see some Finder changes!

Spring '06 - still 8 months away.

Yeah, I can't imagine they won't update the Finder and Safari (with more than they've shown). We are far from seeing the end of Leopard, and I think Steve made that very clear.

David :cool:

bwanac
Aug 8, 2006, 01:05 AM
Nothing impressive really... top secrets should be good.

Time Machine is ok. It looks awful for an Apple product, what is up with that background? Ugly. And I really want to know how much disk space it will be taking backing everything up constantly. I would most likely turn it off.

Tymmz
Aug 8, 2006, 01:09 AM
Nothing impressive really... top secrets should be good.

Time Machine is ok. It looks awful for an Apple product, what is up with that background? Ugly.

I totally agree, it looked quite ugly.

Renegate
Aug 8, 2006, 01:32 AM
I don't know what there is to be underwhelmed about; the rumor has basically been that the main things being covered here would be the Mac Pro (which exceeded my expectations) and the first real glimpse at Leopard (which looks very cool from what I've seen). I didn't find either the Mac Pro or Leopard to be underwhelming, so I don't see anything that would make me feel underwhelmed.

I guess I would be underwhelmed if I had mistaken WWDC for Macworld or something, and expected a bunch of major new product announcements.
And don't forget they said : More things to be announced next week

Jimmieboy
Aug 8, 2006, 01:45 AM
Yahoo! Leopard looks awesome! Time machine looks like a lifesaver for me and spaces makes life so much easier. THANKS STEVE!

hansen
Aug 8, 2006, 01:47 AM
WOW, leopard looks so promising

Time machine and mail enhancements with notes and to-do's would make it all worthwhile for me. I was actually working on to-do's from mail myself as I needed it so bad. Time machine looks like the best solution to the backup/versioning problem I've ever seen. Wow, again! Can't wait.

bigwig
Aug 8, 2006, 01:54 AM
I wonder if Time Machine will work correctly with FileVault? Saving file alterations to an unencrypted backup defeats the purpose of using FileVault in the first place.

rayz
Aug 8, 2006, 02:08 AM
From the Apple website...

Backup Disk: Change the drive or volume you’re backing up to. Or back up to a Mac OS X server computer.

Ouch .... :eek:

ZoomZoomZoom
Aug 8, 2006, 02:13 AM
Time Machine looks to be one of those things you never use, but then one day you'll need to use it and you'll be really glad it's here. I don't like the stars and stuff in the background, though. So tacky.

I'm really interested about Spaces. I constantly have loads of windows/applications running around, and having something to manage it all would be awesome.

The new iChat features look very promising. Can't really say the same for Mail/Dashboard/iCal/Spotlight, though - not too impressed with those. Whatever is top secret had better blow all of this stuff out of the water, or else I wouldn't call Leopard "Vista 2.0".

rayz
Aug 8, 2006, 02:31 AM
Time Machine: the attempts to say this was done before with VMS, System Restore or Shadow Copy are pathetic, and those who made the comparison should be ashamed of themselves. Of course it isn't a completely new idea: it's been something that people have wanted to do for years. As far as I can see, Apple is the company that first demonstrated a practical version of this feature that an ordinary person could use. I predict that Microsoft's implementation will be a complicated mess that regular users find opaque and will not use (just like System Restore is).


Er ... you right click on the file, select properties, and then just click on the previous versions tab.

MS has actually put it where most people expect to find it; I thought they might put it on the actual right-click menu, but I honestly don't think that it's going to get used enough for folk to want to have it in their face all the time.

Oh, and MS doesn't need a separate drive for it to work. If the Apple Time Machine ( :rolleyes: ) really does need a separate drive, then it sounds as if Apple has probably just skinned a version control system it pulled from the open source world.

rayz
Aug 8, 2006, 03:08 AM
Well I for one was kind of disappointed. Leopard is sort of Apple's chance to prove they can out-Vista Vista, and I'm not really sure what we saw today does it. I've been following Vista somewhat closely, and it really does catch Windows up to OS X in terms of features and prettiness.

I really think most of the features shown off today are already present in Windows (I've definitely heard about all of them before) or will be in Vista, and it's too bad Apple didn't have anything truly innovative to show us. Hopefully those secret features are something good...

The other thing that has me a little concerned is the huge amount of Vista-bashing that went on. I feel like if Leopard at this point were truly better than Vista, they'd be silent about Vista entirely and let the new system speak for itself. That would be really slick. That's not what happened however, and instead there was a lot of "look what Vista copied from us" and "check out how much better Leopard is." What I saw today, though, makes the former statement sound whiney and the latter sound foolish, since in my eyes, in terms of features, they're about on-par with each other.

I really hope Apple pulls it together. They've got to do this right, because come next year, most of the myriad reasons for switching to a Mac will be nullified by Vista.

BTW: whoever this "Platform Experience" guy is, get him off the stage and go back to Steve.


Have to agree with you on just about everything. If MS tried to release something like this, as anything other than a service pack, their user base would (quite rightly) crucify them.

The TimeMachine mirrors the same functionality that was announced for Vista about a week ago, and everything else is an upgrade rather than anything really new. I was expecting more from the desktop switching, but I have a feeling that will look much different when it's actually released.

But since there is some other stuff planned, then it's best to wait and see what they come up with, before declaring it a dud.

Looks like a nice solid revision so far, but not much else.

.. and given the universal unpopularity of Microsoft's Flip3D interface, I was surprised to see it showing up in the UI for TimeMachine.

Bern
Aug 8, 2006, 03:31 AM
Well I'm excited about Leopard and look forward to it's release. Rightly so should Apple keep hushed about what ever new features are to be added. Those nay sayers out there to Leopard should wait until they use it before they begin crucifying it, after all what hand did they have in the development of OS X??

Only thing that plays on my mind is whether some new features will be limited to Pro line Macs. I recall when Dashboard first came about iBooks couldn't display the ripple effect for example whereas Powerbooks could. I certainly hope we MacBook owners won't suffer the same fate with things like the new iChat, Mail or what ever.

joseph2166
Aug 8, 2006, 03:46 AM
I cant see how leopard has NOT out vista-ed vista: OSX was allready better than vista will be and these new and updated features merely underline it. I would go on about how great it all is but im using a french keyboard and all the letters are in the wrong place - its not a qwerty keyboard but a azerty... crazy...

Dunepilot
Aug 8, 2006, 04:03 AM
I'm glad that Leopard will be completely (that's what they say, at least) 64-bit. I'm not sure why it's important to go on about the applications as if they were important to the operating system itself. Increased integration like what was displayed would cause the anti-trust machine to whip into action, if it was Microsoft instead of Apple.

Time Machine is not exactly revolutionary, considering that there were a few 3rd party products available--Rewind comes to mind--that journaled changes and allowed them to be restored. Still, it should stop the various threads "I accidentally deleted..." :)

Hopefully, the features not mentioned will include a better kernel that actually performs well. It would be nice to see operating system benchmarks that don't make me cringe when I look at the Mac OS X results.

Xcode version 3.0 looks good but they still haven't provided many details.

Yeah, my first thought was - oh yeah, that's just like Rewind. However, the poweronsoftware.com website now forwards to http://www.nowsoftware.com/, so maybe Rewind has been bought out by Apple to use as Time Machine. Anyone know any more about this?

Dune

JFreak
Aug 8, 2006, 04:05 AM
Looks like this will be a significant upgrade. Tiger was not what it was promised to be, in my eyes at least, so now I'm thinking they have finally made it better than Panther.

Let's see...

JonD25
Aug 8, 2006, 04:18 AM
This may have already been discussed somewhere, but the vast amount of threads on all the new Leopard stuff and the 10 pages of this thread are a bit to search through, so just ignore me if someone already brought it up.

Did anyone notice the new iChat got rid of the brushed metal? One of the things I was dissapointed to not see was the talk about an improved/different UI, particularly the banishment of brushed metal. Could this be a preview of that fact? Perhaps part of the "top secret" features to come?

weg
Aug 8, 2006, 04:23 AM
heh... they give MS so much crap for photocopying, but if anything, this is more or less taking a page out of MS's book with System Restore. Granted, it looks like it will be better, but still, MS had this kind of thing first.

Not trolling, just pointing it out :)

This is in line with their other "innovations":

Spaces? Wow. A blatant Desktop Manager (http://desktopmanager.berlios.de/) rip-off, and Linux supports virtual desktops since 20 years.

Multiuser support for iCal? I'm sure Microsoft will copy that immediately.. oh, wait... Outlook supports that since years.

Time Machine? This feature is overly complicated.. nothing but a fancy undo option. Lots of eye candy.

BGil
Aug 8, 2006, 04:32 AM
Have to agree with you on just about everything. If MS tried to release something like this, as anything other than a service pack, their user base would (quite rightly) crucify them.

The TimeMachine mirrors the same functionality that was announced for Vista about a week ago,

It's kinda unfair to say Microsoft just announced PreviousDocs/Shadow Copy "about a week ago" because it's been in every build for the last year.
Winsupersite on build 5219:
Windows Vista build 5219 also includes an integrated Shadow Copy client, which you manage from the Shadow Copies tab of the Properties dialog for your hard drive (Figure). This feature, which first originated in Windows Server 2003, lets you cache older versions of data files so that you can recover information in the event of an error. So if you overwrite a critical file, or inadvertently change part of a document, you can "go back in time" and access older versions.

Let's see how this works. First, you need to enable Shadow Copies from the aforementioned dialog. Then, after you've mucked up a file, you can access its Properties dialog in Explorer and navigate to the Previous Versions pane (Figure). Here, you can select between various different versions of the document (and your time travel experience is complete). This is a great feature, and I'm glad to see it being added to the Windows client.

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/vista-5219-review-26.jpg
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/vista-5219-review-25.jpg

That build was released in September of 2005.
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5219.asp

Even before that Bob Muglia, who head the Longhorn Server project, said it would be integrated into NTFS.
MS also ships a shadow copy client for XP.

If anything, Apple has known about Previous Docs for over a year now.

nostrum
Aug 8, 2006, 04:38 AM
Pretty underwhelmed by Leopard to be honest. Time Machine looks like the best new feature, but i doubt that I'll even use it that much. But does it really matter? OS X is the best OS out there, its still a significantly better than anything MS can produce. Its stable, doesn't crash, freeze, lock up. Its secure. It does everything you want without the hassle you get from XP. In truth it doesn't even need to be updated. It works and thats the most important thing to me as a user.

I'm happy with Tiger and unless there's something significant that will be in Leopard, i doubt that I'll upgrade unless I get a new Intel Mac.

rolandf
Aug 8, 2006, 05:14 AM
I just went through my older posts, concerning Apple's strategy and future, e.g. the role of Vista. I still think, what I said several month ago is still an issue. Having seen Leopard as it stands is not very promising for Apple's future.

Let me remember you, that some of the key people at Apple left the company! In the posts there has been "monolithic kernel" and "NEXT" bashing.


Question: Did they improve the kernel?
Question: How much will the integration / interoperability be with Unix / Linux?
Question: Is there still a future for the Open Source community, or is Leopard just making OS X more proprietary?
Question: Are they continuing to water down their PRO Apps, intermingling it with the OS and making everything more childish?
Question: Is this OS 10.5 usable for a tablet PC? How strong are features like handwriting and speech recognition? (Remember, we are approaching 2010!)
Question: Will they still continue to make the UI more heterogeneous and disorganised, this mix of unmotivated 3D, lack of resolution independence, for every single task a separate application etc.
Question: Virtualisation is a standard for many OS's in the Unix world. A company that sells servers, should be comfortable with that.
Question: How efficient will the OS be, given the arrival of multi-core processors, e.g. quad etc.?

But as it seems, OS X still lives from the legacy, from the NEXT computer that quantum leap in computer history and meanwhile MS with Vista just improved a lot the feel and look, so as others also remarked it, the need to switch to Mac is not given for an everyday user.

Apple conveys to me the image of a company working on too many things at the same time, loosing focus, innovation and good people. Further since the Intel switch even the motivation to further push the design of the hardware did not happen, and the "products we wanted to build, but could not" did not appear.

Will at least the Playstation 3 be the highlight of the year and the direction for the future?

jackc
Aug 8, 2006, 05:16 AM
I hope there's been a significant overhaul in Spotlight, beyond what Steve hinted at already. There was no video demo on the website, so hopefully that's the case. It was a really underdeveloped feature in Tiger.

Squire
Aug 8, 2006, 05:52 AM
Okay, after reading the ten pages, here are my thoughts:

I think one of the biggest things is the iChat remote desktop functionality. I have long been wanting very basic Apple Remote Desktop abilities in OS X. It is the perfect way to help a friend or family member troubleshoot a computer problem or teach them how to do a particular task.

Now, it seems, in iChat, all they have to do is share their screen, and you can take over! (If I am reading the description correctly!)

This is huge, in my opinion. I even considered buying Remote Desktop last year to help my computer-challenged family members with certain issues. Excellent-- yet totally unexpected-- development. (Strange that they didn't demo this feature during the keynote, though.)

Oh yeah, Time Machine is cool.

And this is the other biggie for me. Idiot proof and, in my opinion, truly necessary. Sure, you hope you'll never need it but it's the same with insurance. (And to those whining about the space theme, don't worry. Someone-- either Apple or a 3rd party developer-- will make it so the theme can be changed. Personally, I like it.)

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/accessibility.html

From this site:

Closed captioning
QuickTime currently supports closed captioning by including a text track alongside audio and video content. But improved QuickTime support will automatically display the CEA-608 closed captioning text standard in analog broadcasts in the U.S.

-----

Anyone think this means support for Closed Captioning in iTunes video downloads? As a hearing-impaired Mac-User, the lack of subtitles/captions in the TV shows is the one thing keeping me from buying a bunch of them. I hope they address this issue soon...

Good point. I would love that if they ever decided to make TV shows available to those outside the US.

* Mail: The advancements are welcome. I, also, send emails to myself all the time. Good idea.

* Spaces: Well, not a huge feature for me. I think Expose does a good enough job.

* Dashboard: I like the web clip thing.

* Spotlight: Not much new there for my use.

* iCal: I never use it but now that the To Do list option is there, I might.

* Accessibility: I think the new voice is more important than some may think. Having an OS voice that sounds, well, real, might have some interesting applications.

* 64-bit: Depends on apps, doesn't it?

* Core Animation: Now, is this something the average Joe can utilize or is it for pros? Looks cool, nonetheless.

Enhanced iChat: Nifty new features, but here's the deal: Apple needs to look beyond Cupertino and survey the IM landscape that exists outside of the US, because it's huge. Most PC-using kids and twenty-somethings overseas live and breath and depend on two kinds of software, an internet browser and an IM client. Overseas, Yahoo and MS Messenger are all that's used and the features that are provided by those clients are heavily depended upon by the overseas youth culture because they were born and raised on that stuff. If iChat (or any other client) at a minimum can't provide support for Yahoo and MS Messenger protocols with absolute one for one feature parity with PC's, you can forget about selling a Mac (or at least the Mac OS) to these kids, because it's just an absolute deal-killer without IM support that they are used to. The IM culture overseas is just that big, that integrated, and they (along with their IM friends) don't use AOL and they don't use .Mac and they aren't going to. The IM scene overseas and it's dependence on MS Messenger and Yahoo is practically a youth culture in and of itself now and ignoring that is simply bad business for Apple at this point.

Of all the iChat comments on these 10 pages, this one is the most significant. Apple has to get together with Microsoft and Yahoo! to work this out. I know, like, 3 people who use AOL. and I don't want a 3rd party patch job. (I know some of you swear by Adium but I really like iChat.)

Finally, it appears that some of these make features included in the .mac service redundant. Specifically, Backup (displaced by Time Machine) and, to a lesser extent, iCards (now challenged by the stationery features in Mail). This is in direct contrast to MWSF '06 where it seemed that .Mac would take on a larger role.

-Squire

CellarDoor
Aug 8, 2006, 06:29 AM
In nine months or less......... we'll have those
Top Secret features in our machines - too bad
for Redmond they won't be revealed until then.
Core graphics and Quartz Extreme will be amazing.
Love Time Machine, Spaces, etc.

Is this a poem? Lovely.

zooniverse
Aug 8, 2006, 06:48 AM
love the new features so far. Hopefully a UI refresh will be one of the top secret features to finally get rid of the dated brushed-metal finder etc...

eMagius
Aug 8, 2006, 07:31 AM
hmmm, most of the features are already in windows? what version of windows do you have?

2003.

playaj82
Aug 8, 2006, 07:38 AM
I know a lot of people are excited about Time Machine, but I was kind of worried last night when I showed it to one of my friends.

Unlike Expose, Fast User Switching, iTunes, Dashboard, etc... that have immediate impact and understanding as to why the features are so neat, Time Machine is actually rather complicated.

I explained and showed it to my friend, and she said, "so what, when I delete something it stays on the hard drive anyways"

All of us here obviously understand the significance of this program, but does anybody else think this will be difficult to market to the "average" user.