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MacRumors
Aug 8, 2006, 02:33 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Parallels spokesman Ben Roudolph has revealed that Parallels is working to support 3D acceleration in an upcoming release of the company's flagship Mac product, Parallels Desktop for Mac.

What's more, Parallels Desktop for Mac will see "fast 3D graphics support," presumably to help cater to gamers who want to run Windows games without having to reboot their machine using Boot Camp and a separate Windows partition. --via MacWorld (http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/08/08/parallelswwdc/index.php)

The news comes as Microsoft has announced plans to cease development of a univeral-binary version of VirtualPC for Mac (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060807190057.shtml) and VMWare is showing off a beta (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060805151513.shtml) of their virtualization soluation. Both VirtualPC and VMWare to date do not offer full 3D acceleration. However, recent announcements by TransGaming (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060803142913.shtml) and <a href"http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630170338.shtml"]CodeWeavers[/url], both of which promise to allow more games to run well natively in Mac OS X (albeit via different methods), has stepped up competition in the Mac gaming realm.

Digg This (http://digg.com/apple/Parallels_Working_On_3D_Acceleration_For_Desktop_for_Mac)

yellow
Aug 8, 2006, 02:36 PM
Good Newsies!

amac4me
Aug 8, 2006, 02:36 PM
Nice. I welcome anything that would get more people to make the Switch. If Parallels can get this to market, it would help Apple.

Grimace
Aug 8, 2006, 02:37 PM
Let the gaming thread begin...:cool:

bigandy
Aug 8, 2006, 02:38 PM
i'll take eight!

vniow
Aug 8, 2006, 02:38 PM
This would seriously kick ass.

I'm curious how they would acheive it though, would it be able to access the full (or at least partial) acceleration of the graphics card or be emulating a seperate one, sort of like Virtual PC did on the PPC platform but more powerful?

Eidorian
Aug 8, 2006, 02:40 PM
Great news!

Even it's only limited due to shader issues I'd love to be able to play my older 3D games without rebooting. :D

Akira
Aug 8, 2006, 02:42 PM
Forget games, think about CAD and 3D software!

Finally AutoCAD and Maya on a MacBook Pro, while being able to do the rest of your work in Mac apps.

Xacto
Aug 8, 2006, 02:45 PM
If you run games with Bootcamp, will it take advantage of the 3D card?

lar34
Aug 8, 2006, 02:46 PM
Very Toasty indeed, bring on the games. However I do have an architect friend who needs AutoCAD on a Mac. So this is good news indeed.

kainjow
Aug 8, 2006, 02:49 PM
Awesome news. Unless something drastic happens soon, native Mac games aren't in a good position right now :(

longofest
Aug 8, 2006, 02:51 PM
This would seriously kick ass.

I'm curious how they would acheive it though, would it be able to access the full (or at least partial) acceleration of the graphics card or be emulating a seperate one, sort of like Virtual PC did on the PPC platform but more powerful?

You are basically talking about a serious amount of development work if they were to do it right. Parallels would have to look at its GPU hardware and determine what kind of functions it can support (i.e. Shaders? How many pipelines? etc...). Then, they would have to write their own graphics drivers in order to facilitate the communications between the Mac OS X graphics drivers and the Virtual Machine. Writing graphics drivers that support all of the "fancy" aspects of modern machines is not very easy to do, and then getting them to communicate with the host OS is another beast in of itself.

You will probably see some overhead as well. It will be interesting to see how efficient Parallels is able to make the process.

Lollypop
Aug 8, 2006, 02:52 PM
Im dying to know how they will do it, and what Direct X they will support, I could run a few very old games in Parallels without 3d support and it all running on the CPU.

Maybe they will create a virtual driver that translates the windows Direct X instructions to openGL for mac and then simply display those results or something... these are exciting days for the mac indeed! :D

edit: second time today someone says exactly the same thing as I did the exact time I say it... must be a slow day for me:eek: :rolleyes:

kenaustus
Aug 8, 2006, 02:52 PM
Sad to see Parallels push MS out of the market . . . :)

Overall I think Parallels is going to win this market unless VMWare comes out with a very good product at a very good price. At least we can enjoy the competition over the next few years.

longofest
Aug 8, 2006, 02:53 PM
If you run games with Bootcamp, will it take advantage of the 3D card?

Yes. BootCamp allows fully native 3d performance, and also allows Windows to utilize all available CPU power so you don't have the burden of a host OS (i.e. Mac OS X) running in the background.

However, this means every time you want to game, you have to re-start you computer. Parallels is trying to take out that step for all but the most hardware-intensive games (as then I'm sure you'd run into the fact that you have the overhead of virtualization).

ColdFlame87
Aug 8, 2006, 02:54 PM
I imagine nothing will be as efficient as actually running games by booting into XP im guessing running them through parallels will make the RAM requirements much higher, with the OS X + Parallels +Game all running at the same time!!

iKwick7
Aug 8, 2006, 02:55 PM
Forget games, think about CAD and 3D software!

Finally AutoCAD and Maya on a MacBook Pro, while being able to do the rest of your work in Mac apps.

Exactly what I was thinking! Great for my macbook, but even better for a Mac pro! (which I will be getting sooner or later). I'm definately sold!

walrus
Aug 8, 2006, 02:55 PM
Actually, VMWare does have experimental 3d acceleration support in VMWare Player (at least). It basically routes open-gl calls to the host OS's open-gl interface - I imagine Parallels will take a similar tack. Yes, I have tried this, and it works somewhat well. It's enough for simple Open-GL apps to work with pretty good speed under virtualized windows in Linux. (Gentoo Linux in my case)

(FYI this describes how to turn on the acceleration in VMWare Workstation in Ubuntu Linux: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84344)

nagromme
Aug 8, 2006, 02:57 PM
If you run games with Bootcamp, will it take advantage of the 3D card?
Yes.


Awesome news. Unless something drastic happens soon, native Mac games aren't in a good position right now :(
Agreed--but I think something drastic IS going to happen soon: the growth of the Mac market as a whole. That is a positive to help outweigh some of the sales native game companies will lose to Windows solutions.

Remember two things about the Windows solutions to date:

1. You still have to buy a copy of Windows. Some people will do that, but NOT the whole market of Mac gamers.

2. MANY people were ALREADY willing to game in Windows (and used a PC to do it). So the people running Windows games on a Mac aren't in fact all "lost customers"--many of them are just doing what they always did (only easier).

So I think there's a sizable chunk of native Mac game demand left. I know I'm part of it myself!

A smaller chunk than before? Very possibly--BUT a smaller chunk of a much larger whole, as Mac sales continue to rise.

Only time will tell, and I can see why these are scary, uncertain times for some Mac game companies. But I expect native Mac games AND Windows ports/conversions to live on.

And for Mac gameERS, things are looking better than ever.

longofest
Aug 8, 2006, 02:58 PM
Actually, VMWare does have experimental 3d acceleration support in VMWare Player (at least). It basically routes open-gl calls to the host OS's open-gl interface - I imagine Parallels will take a similar tack. Yes, I have tried this, and it works somewhat well. It's enough for simple Open-GL apps to work with pretty good speed under virtualized windows in Linux. (Gentoo Linux in my case)

(FYI this describes how to turn on the acceleration in VMWare Workstation in Ubuntu Linux: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84344)

Fair enough... I changed the story to say "full 3d acceleration".

mdntcallr
Aug 8, 2006, 03:02 PM
Sounds like a good idea. but i am a little bit sceptical with regard to gaming performance.

Lets see what the best possibility is for game performance. Transgaming or this solution.

I just want to be able to have games which perform well.

walrus
Aug 8, 2006, 03:05 PM
Fair enough... I changed the story to say "full 3d acceleration".
Wow, that's fast! Frankly, it seems not all that many even know of VMWare's feature since it's not well documented (and really experimental). And by most, I'll include an awful lot of people who use VMWare regularly.

Anyway, this is all largely irrelevant to me (even though I bought a copy of Parallels, I own a macbook, and frankly don't play games all that much)... now if they got SMP working for guest OSes, upped the limits on disk size, made the sessions resize screen resolutions arbitrarily, and well, integrated all of the other features from vmware server, I'd be pretty pleased. (of course, it'd be nice to have 4 gigs of ram on this macbook then =)

Kid Red
Aug 8, 2006, 03:11 PM
K, so what about those of us without an Intel mac? Now that VPC is dead, are we left out in the cold?

ZildjianKX
Aug 8, 2006, 03:15 PM
Looks like we might be able to enable Aero in Vista if this is true...

teme
Aug 8, 2006, 03:21 PM
Sure these news are good, but Apple doesn't have a hardware for switching gamers...

aswitcher
Aug 8, 2006, 03:24 PM
Excellent news. If Apple wont do this (Top Secret stuff?) then I am really glad someone is.

dizastor
Aug 8, 2006, 03:25 PM
i'd advise against excitement until we see some FPS numbers.

JackSYi
Aug 8, 2006, 03:35 PM
Parallels is awesome. I really wish Apple will buy out Parallels to incorporate it in Leopard.

greenstork
Aug 8, 2006, 03:41 PM
K, so what about those of us without an Intel mac? Now that VPC is dead, are we left out in the cold?

Sadly...yes, time for a new computer.

MacMan314
Aug 8, 2006, 03:41 PM
Sure these news are good, but Apple doesn't have a hardware for switching gamers...


No offense, but were you living in a hole yesterday? They have the Mac Pro (http://www.apple.com/macpro/).

Flowbee
Aug 8, 2006, 03:42 PM
Excellent news. If Apple wont do this (Top Secret stuff?) then I am really glad someone is.

I really hope Apple doesn't knock the wind out of Parallels' sails by announcing similar technology as one of Leopard's "secret" features. While it would be great to have it built-in, I'd love to see the Parallels people enjoy a bit of success first.

glassbathroom
Aug 8, 2006, 03:48 PM
Forget games, think about CAD and 3D software!

Finally AutoCAD and Maya on a MacBook Pro, while being able to do the rest of your work in Mac apps.


Yes indeed! Well said, there is more to 3D than games.

glassbathroom
Aug 8, 2006, 03:51 PM
I really hope Apple doesn't knock the wind out of Parallels' sails by announcing similar technology as one of Leopard's "secret" features. While it would be great to have it built-in, I'd love to see the Parallels people enjoy a bit of success first.

I was wondering if this was why they didn't mention this at all. Maybe Apple did a deal with Parallels. Give us a few months before you go this route. They are even plugging it in their adverts.;)

steve_hill4
Aug 8, 2006, 03:54 PM
While I also like the idea of no virtualisation and seemlessly running Windows apps, I prefer to contain them within a parallels window. The only advantage would be the potential space saved by no Windows install.

So news that Parallels will be offering 3D support excites me. The more using this rather than bootcamp, the better. Being able to switch from a Windows game to the Apple mail, Safari or the various other standard OSX apps is a brilliant advert for them. If you boot into Windows on a Mac, you will be slowly tempted to use a Windows app to do everyday tasks, OSX begins to be a hassle. The more people use the OSX apps, the more they realise how much better they often are.

thegreatluke
Aug 8, 2006, 03:55 PM
If this would run well with 1 GB of RAM and be able to play all the games I'd be able to play in Windows under Boot Camp, I'd DEFINITELY get this. ...As soon as I can find Windows for cheap. ;)

I was wondering if this was why they didn't mention this at all. Maybe Apple did a deal with Parallels. Give us a few months before you go this route. They are even plugging it in their adverts.;)
Though I doubt this would happen, it would be REALLY cool if Apple could "obtain" Parallels and have seamless Windows virtualization built into Leopard. The only feature I'd have to request would be to ask permission to run a Windows process on the Mac side... just to be safe. I figure seamless Windows integration/virtualization would open up room for viruses and the like, no?

teme
Aug 8, 2006, 03:58 PM
No offense, but were you living in a hole yesterday? They have the Mac Pro (http://www.apple.com/macpro/).

No offence, but $2500 Mac Pro with low-end GPU is not for gamers/consumers.

Kid Red
Aug 8, 2006, 04:02 PM
Sadly...yes, time for a new computer.

Hmm, well my dual core G5 will have to do for a while I guess. Not about to get a replace a year old G5.

maxvamp
Aug 8, 2006, 04:03 PM
K, so what about those of us without an Intel mac? Now that VPC is dead, are we left out in the cold?

You probably want to get one of the last copies of VPC. MS did say they would support the product.

I suspect that you see no new PC emulators for the PPC, not due to the EOL status of the PPC Mac line, but because Intel has offered up this new Virtualization technology on the processor that far exceeds the performance of any synthetic processor.

On another note, this technology might be why it would be more difficult for Apple to put AMD procs in Macs.

Max.

Hmm, well my dual core G5 will have to do for a while I guess. Not about to get a replace a year old G5.

My Quad G5 is in the same boat... however.....

What I generally do if I need to have Windows on the side is to fire up one of my PCs ( or parallels ), and use Remote Desktop to have both screens in one interface.

Works well, and there is no monitor switching.

Max.

Kid Red
Aug 8, 2006, 04:21 PM
Fortunately, I have no need for a PC or PC software. I don't have the MS VPC and my old copy doesn't work on G5s. So, I've lived for well over a year without the ability to run PC software and I don't think I will ever have to. It was more about envy to see all this news from various companies and nothing about use pre-Intel pro users ;(

mkrishnan
Aug 8, 2006, 04:28 PM
Wow, that's fast! Frankly, it seems not all that many even know of VMWare's feature since it's not well documented (and really experimental). And by most, I'll include an awful lot of people who use VMWare regularly.

Yeah, I had never heard of this feature. I don't use VMWare though. I'm just a geek. :eek: ;) :o

So VMWare's implementation is essentially an API bridge of sorts, right? It detects an outgoing video call coming down, and it decodes it and translates it into the graphics APIs of the host? Doesn't this approach mean that incompatibility issues will crop up when the system gets bogged down in figuring out what the calls means or mis-interprets one?

I wonder in some relation... now that dual cores dominate new processors from Intel, and virtualization has become a big deal, are video card manufacturers developing GPUs that support virtualization in some analogy to the way the new CPUs do? Or for that matter, is Intel working on such a feature with their integrated chipset?

nsjoker
Aug 8, 2006, 04:29 PM
do people actually run games in VPC? it is horribly slow, i could never imagine a game. framerates must top out at 5. maybe solitaire or chess, but anything else.. :/

Zadillo
Aug 8, 2006, 04:34 PM
Forget games, think about CAD and 3D software!

Finally AutoCAD and Maya on a MacBook Pro, while being able to do the rest of your work in Mac apps.

Wait, why are you including Maya? You can run that natively on OS X, right? Did you mean 3dsMax?

-Zadillo

AlexK
Aug 8, 2006, 04:35 PM
Forget games, think about CAD and 3D software!

Finally AutoCAD and Maya on a MacBook Pro, while being able to do the rest of your work in Mac apps.
Actually I posted several days ago about the actual possibility of running professional 3D applications under Parallels workstation. I also made a screencast of messiah (a professional character animation software based on openGL) running together with several quicktimes, iMovieHD, iSight capturing and Exposť showing all windows. Unfortunately I had to change the video again, because of license issues (I also showed a beta product running by accident). But it still shows a lot of the above.

Check it out:
http://www.babylondreams.de/wordpress/index.php/2006/07/29/behold-i-give-you-messiah-for-mac-os-x/
and
http://www.babylondreams.de/wordpress/index.php/2006/07/29/messiah-on-mac-os-x-moving-proof/

MacsRgr8
Aug 8, 2006, 04:41 PM
do people actually run games in VPC? it is horribly slow, i could never imagine a game. framerates must top out at 5. maybe solitaire or chess, but anything else.. :/

Nope. Well.. Solitaire.. ofcourse! :p

But every fast flowing game is impossible to play (i.e. Doom 2, Quake 1).. even on my Quad! (thus the fastest VPC Mac ever.... or is the Dual 2.7 GHz faster...?).

DirectX games are totally out of the question.

ChrisA
Aug 8, 2006, 04:44 PM
K, so what about those of us without an Intel mac? Now that VPC is dead, are we left out in the cold?

I'd think QEMU should be able to do what you want and posably a bit more too.
http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/

slackersonly
Aug 8, 2006, 04:53 PM
I was really happy that my Parallels copy arrived today.
I am even happier after reading this that I chose right in adding this product to my Mac.:)

fatfish
Aug 8, 2006, 05:16 PM
I hope this beta is better than the RC, I'd rather them get some isses ironed out before moving on. To be fair windows runs really well in paralells, but getting a network running was a nightmare. I had to go into the terminal to sort things out and so far networking is not 100%. I might be wrong but there doesn't seem to be any support for serial ports either (very un windows like). Most mac users won't want to go to a terminal window, most likely don't know what it's for, that's the mac experience - simplicity. Paralells need to work on this.

Forget 3D acceleration, we have boot camp, I dont use it, I don't play games, but if I did rebooting into windows wouldn't be much of a problem. OSX takes about 15 secs to load, windows takes about the same in paralells, so I have to guess windows in boot camp would also be something similar. Not to much of an inconvenience then.

nsayer
Aug 8, 2006, 05:46 PM
Nice, but I'd like to see something more basic - support for importing VirtualPC disks. I know the FAQ says they're working on it. I just wish they'd hurry up.

I guess that makes me an impatiant bastard customer. :)

ImAlwaysRight
Aug 8, 2006, 05:47 PM
OSX takes about 15 secs to load, windows takes about the same in paralells, so I have to guess windows in boot camp would also be something similar. Not to much of an inconvenience then.
For folks wanting to run Windows software alongside Mac software, switching between apps, rebooting into Windows would be an inconvenience. But if you are just firing up to play the latest game, then I agree, the fast boot time of the OS'es really is not that big a deal. I have tried Boot Camp for a couple PC games, and it works great.

sushi
Aug 8, 2006, 06:21 PM
Parallels is awesome. I really wish Apple will buy out Parallels to incorporate it in Leopard.
Now that would be sweet. Complete integration.

Of course if you could just run Windows apps under Leopard directly that would be even better.

Willis
Aug 8, 2006, 06:37 PM
Oooo, funky. Im sure i read that Paralells runs at near native speed, so taking into account the 3D aspect... i'd say it would be about 90% native speed give or take.

*closes VPC6* god that app is crap... glad its being killed off, although, they could redo a PPC version atleast. Meh.

mdntcallr
Aug 8, 2006, 06:39 PM
Yes.

2. MANY people were ALREADY willing to game in Windows (and used a PC to do it). So the people running Windows games on a Mac aren't in fact all "lost customers"--many of them are just doing what they always did (only easier).

So I think there's a sizable chunk of native Mac game demand left. I know I'm part of it myself!

And for Mac gameERS, things are looking better than ever.

Yep, i play on my pc tower. woudnt mind getting a new mac tower, or imac with better graphics card.

and a macbook pro (with merom)

Essentially that way i could then play, work and travel with what i need for my house.

kainjow
Aug 8, 2006, 07:02 PM
Saw this in the Parallels forums (direct link (http://forums.parallels.com/post17684-26.html))
3D support feature is under investigation. I can't promise we will implement it in particular version, but we do understand it is important for our customers and we are concerned to support it.
So don't get your hopes up people...

Stridder44
Aug 8, 2006, 07:04 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Parallels spokesman Ben Roudolph has revealed that Parallels is working to support 3D acceleration in an upcoming release of the company's flagship Mac product, Parallels Desktop for Mac.



The news comes as Microsoft has announced plans to cease development of a univeral-binary version of VirtualPC for Mac (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060807190057.shtml) and VMWare is showing off a beta (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060805151513.shtml) of their virtualization soluation. Both VirtualPC and VMWare to date do not offer full 3D acceleration. However, recent announcements by TransGaming (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060803142913.shtml) and <a href"http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630170338.shtml"]CodeWeavers[/url], both of which promise to allow more games to run well natively in Mac OS X (albeit via different methods), has stepped up competition in the Mac gaming realm.

Digg This (http://digg.com/apple/Parallels_Working_On_3D_Acceleration_For_Desktop_for_Mac)



Wow. Do these guys ever have any bad news to report? Much less any bad news whatsoever to report about this product? This is ****ing awesome! Guys, we are in a whole new arena with Apple nowadays. Welcome to the good life :D

walrus
Aug 8, 2006, 07:17 PM
I have been working with VMWare quite a lot for over a year, and didn't know about this feature (which is over a year old) until a friend pointed it out to me.

I'm not entirely sure how it works to be honest, but yeah, I think it's essentially an open-gl interface in the Vmware virtual video card driver for windows provided by Vmware tools (Parallels has an equivalent) that provides hooks for opengl calls. When the opengl functions are called on the virtual video card driver, the vmware driver will then pass it off to the actual opengl interface on the host-os' actual video card driver. By no means is it a perfect solution, especially since I don't know if there's ANY direct-x acceleration possible. (unless one were to use a direct-x->opengl interface at some point, or if someone develops a direct-x layer for OS X)

In VMware you also need to allocate part of the video card's ram for the purpose of the guest OS. (I have no idea how this would work on a macbook or something else without dedicated video ram)

Mind you my experience with this feature is limited to about 20 minutes of messing around with settings, and trying to load grand theft auto vice city. It didn't work, but the open-gl screen savers built into windows did work just fine, and were clearly 3d accelerated. I have a friend however, who is able to game relatively well on a linux system running games under vmware with the 3d acceleration pass through working. For me, it's largely irrelevant since I rarely, if ever, play games. However, in addition to the other features I'd love to see in parallels (SMP, etc), I'd LOVE to see someone build a virtualization tool that allows guest-oses to have full access to the video overlay, so you can play videos/etc in the guest-OS with reasonable performance.

As for being a geek - are you under the impression for some reason that I am not??

Yeah, I had never heard of this feature. I don't use VMWare though. I'm just a geek. :eek: ;) :o

So VMWare's implementation is essentially an API bridge of sorts, right? It detects an outgoing video call coming down, and it decodes it and translates it into the graphics APIs of the host? Doesn't this approach mean that incompatibility issues will crop up when the system gets bogged down in figuring out what the calls means or mis-interprets one?

I wonder in some relation... now that dual cores dominate new processors from Intel, and virtualization has become a big deal, are video card manufacturers developing GPUs that support virtualization in some analogy to the way the new CPUs do? Or for that matter, is Intel working on such a feature with their integrated chipset?

mkrishnan
Aug 8, 2006, 07:30 PM
As for being a geek - are you under the impression for some reason that I am not??

Nope, you've made a compelling case. :eek: ;) :D

Thank you for all the technical info! :) As you say, sounds imperfect, but it's a work in progress, and it has some potential. :)

walrus
Aug 8, 2006, 07:38 PM
I'm glad to provide technical info, but I do need to make it clear that much of that is entirely conjecture.

As for proving my geekiness, I'm glad to finally be able to retire that trying case. Whew! =)

Nope, you've made a compelling case. :eek: ;) :D

Thank you for all the technical info! :) As you say, sounds imperfect, but it's a work in progress, and it has some potential. :)

shigzeo
Aug 8, 2006, 08:05 PM
I re-bought most of my games in osx compatible formats, I'll just be glad to do certain things that make it less of an emulator but more of a vitual machine. cheers to parallels and to hopefully x3 on the mac!

PubGuy
Aug 8, 2006, 08:31 PM
Microsoft is only saying they will not create a universal binary of virtual PC for Intel Macs...they did not say they were killing off Virtual PC for OS X. VPC will still be available for sale for PPC users and supported.

Wow. I'm amazed how people distort the facts.

Don't get me wrong, i've got bot PPC Macs and an Intel MacBook Pro. Have beta tested all the versions and purchased the final version of Parallels. I like Parallels and am happy with it. Much faster on an Intel Mac than VPC on a PPC Mac.

There is no surprise here that MS will not create an Intel Mac version of VPC. VPC emulated the PC CPU...this isn't necessary on Intel Macs, thus it would have to write a completely new program. Everyone knows the MS bought Connectix for its virtual server technology...not VPC for the Mac.

Let's all try to keep the facts straight here and not sensationalize things.

PubGuy
Aug 8, 2006, 08:31 PM
Microsoft is only saying they will not create a universal binary of virtual PC for Intel Macs...they did not say they were killing off Virtual PC for OS X. VPC will still be available for sale for PPC users and supported.

Wow. I'm amazed how people distort the facts.

Don't get me wrong, i've got bot PPC Macs and an Intel MacBook Pro. Have beta tested all the versions and purchased the final version of Parallels. I like Parallels and am happy with it. Much faster on an Intel Mac than VPC on a PPC Mac.

There is no surprise here that MS will not create an Intel Mac version of VPC. VPC emulated the PC CPU...this isn't necessary on Intel Macs, thus it would have to write a completely new program. Everyone knows the MS bought Connectix for its virtual server technology...not VPC for the Mac.

Let's all try to keep the facts straight here and not sensationalize things.

ezekielrage_99
Aug 8, 2006, 08:58 PM
Does this mean I'll be able to run 3D Studio MAX on Mac OSX??

I hope so :cool:

SiliconAddict
Aug 8, 2006, 09:10 PM
Nice but I'd still run it under BC. Not matter what "magic" they pull out of their hat native support will always garner the best FPS and overall speed. That being said I'm really enjoying Parallels. I never knew they did USB support. With that 98% of what I want to do under BC has been migrated over to Parallels with the remaining 2% being Civ IV, Black & White 2, and now Prey. Its a pitty though that Parallels can't use the native NTFS partition. Space is getting REALLY tight now that I have a Parallels HD file and a BC partition. :(

3GB of free space left on OS X is not good. Where is that 160GB 7200RPM drive when you need it. :(

jdurston
Aug 8, 2006, 09:11 PM
Parallels just released a Beta update:

http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/update_beta/

It negates the need for PD tweaker and seems to really improve responsiveness of both the host and guest OS. RAM consumption is down too.:cool:

aswitcher
Aug 8, 2006, 09:13 PM
Parallels just released a Beta update:

http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/update_beta/

It negates the need for PD tweaker and seems to really improve responsiveness of both the host and guest OS. RAM consumption is down too.:cool:

Ta.

jdurston
Aug 8, 2006, 09:16 PM
Ta.

???

aswitcher
Aug 8, 2006, 09:16 PM
???


Short for Thanks. ;)

SiliconAddict
Aug 8, 2006, 09:17 PM
Microsoft is only saying they will not create a universal binary of virtual PC for Intel Macs...they did not say they were killing off Virtual PC for OS X. VPC will still be available for sale for PPC users and supported.


:rolleyes:

Yes because there is going to be a major upsurge in PPC sales this holiday season. Make no mistake about it they have killed off support for the Mac platform. Heck how much you wanna bet that VPC won't run in Leopard and that Microsoft isn't going to lift a finger to make it work. Microsoft will probably continue to sell VPC but considering they are handing it out for FREE to people on the PC platform it should be sending up warning flares that MS isn't trying to make tons of money off VPC. They purchased VPC because they are trying to get into the server virtualization market. They couldn't care less about the desktop.

WildPalms
Aug 8, 2006, 09:51 PM
If you run games with Bootcamp, will it take advantage of the 3D card?

Xacto, Bootcamp is a process to allow a dual boot into the Windows operating system.

Once you have booted into Windows, you are completely in Windows, no emulation, no translation, etc...

So, if Windows can access the 3D card then yes, you can take advantage of the 3D card.

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what Bootcamp is about.

WildPalms
Aug 8, 2006, 09:56 PM
Sure these news are good, but Apple doesn't have a hardware for switching gamers...

Whats wrong with the Mac Pro fitted with the X1900 ?

WildPalms
Aug 8, 2006, 10:01 PM
No offence, but $2500 Mac Pro with low-end GPU is not for gamers/consumers.

X1900 is a low end GPU? You clearly dont play high end games which require some serious hardware. Unless I can crank up all the detail levels to their maximum settings in game, my rig is not up to par.

And if you suggest that there are cheaper options available...

(cant remember who originally quoted the following)

Apple:

Dual 2.66 (2 cpus)
2GB RAM
250GB HD
Superdrive
Quadro FX 4500 512MB
Price: $4,449.00

Alienware:

Dual 2.66 (2 cpus)
2GB RAM
250GB drive
Superdrive
Quadro FX 3500 256MB
Price: $6,041.00

Dell:

2.66 dual core xeon (2 cpus)
2GB RAM
Quadro fx 4500
Superdrive
250GB drive
Price: $5300.00

So whats your problem with the price of the Mac Pro?

digitalbiker
Aug 8, 2006, 10:13 PM
X1900 is a low end GPU? You clearly dont play high end games which require some serious hardware. Unless I can crank up all the detail levels to their maximum settings in game, my rig is not up to par.

I thought the same thing. Looks like a gaming machine to me. What's wrong with FX4500 or X1900? MacPro = "True game machine". Finally Apple is in the game.

Akira
Aug 9, 2006, 02:05 AM
Wait, why are you including Maya? You can run that natively on OS X, right? Did you mean 3dsMax?

-Zadillo
Try running (the PPC-only) Maya on a Intel Mac. I've been told (on many occasions) that it just doesn't work. And even if it did work, it would be terribly slow with Rosetta, so you would be better off running it in windows anyway.

spetznatz
Aug 9, 2006, 02:05 AM
Wait, why are you including Maya? You can run that natively on OS X, right? Did you mean 3dsMax?

-Zadillo

Trouble is, Maya is NOT a Universal Binary, and you wouldn't want to run it under Rosetta.

Further trouble, Autodesk (when I spoke to them the other day) refused to say if they were working on a UB of Maya. 'It's something we're looking at' was all she would say. Given that Maya is written using XCode, porting should be a no-brainer. Other 3D apps (Cheetah, Cinema4D, Modo) had versions out very quickly.

So Maya to be the first victim of Boot Camp?

Still, great news if Parallels can do this properly.

Akira
Aug 9, 2006, 02:08 AM
Actually I posted several days ago about the actual possibility of running professional 3D applications under Parallels workstation. I also made a screencast of messiah (a professional character animation software based on openGL) running together with several quicktimes, iMovieHD, iSight capturing and Exposť showing all windows. Unfortunately I had to change the video again, because of license issues (I also showed a beta product running by accident). But it still shows a lot of the above.

Check it out:
http://www.babylondreams.de/wordpress/index.php/2006/07/29/behold-i-give-you-messiah-for-mac-os-x/
and
http://www.babylondreams.de/wordpress/index.php/2006/07/29/messiah-on-mac-os-x-moving-proof/

Wow AlexK, that's great! Now if only Apple would release Merom MacBook Pro's and I'm all set for the new academic year :D

Akira
Aug 9, 2006, 02:16 AM
Trouble is, Maya is NOT a Universal Binary, and you wouldn't want to run it under Rosetta.

Further trouble, Autodesk (when I spoke to them the other day) refused to say if they were working on a UB of Maya. 'It's something we're looking at' was all she would say. [...]


Exactly. And we all know how committed Autodesk is to the Mac platform :mad:

By the way, some months before Apple announced the Intel switch, Autodesk asked users if they were interested in a Mac OS X version of their AutoCAD software. I replied that I would die for one, just because my university (TU Delft, Faculty of Architecture) uses it on all their workstations. I got a reply they received my mail, but never heard from them since.

And some people think Quark is a lazy company, using their flagship software as a sucked dry milk cow. At least Quark supports Mac and Windows...

glassbathroom
Aug 9, 2006, 05:29 AM
Actually I posted several days ago about the actual possibility of running professional 3D applications under Parallels workstation. I also made a screencast of messiah (a professional character animation software based on openGL) running together with several quicktimes, iMovieHD, iSight capturing and Exposť showing all windows. Unfortunately I had to change the video again, because of license issues (I also showed a beta product running by accident). But it still shows a lot of the above.

Check it out:
http://www.babylondreams.de/wordpress/index.php/2006/07/29/behold-i-give-you-messiah-for-mac-os-x/
and
http://www.babylondreams.de/wordpress/index.php/2006/07/29/messiah-on-mac-os-x-moving-proof/

Thanks for this AlexK.

I knew it was possible, but I didn't think it was as fast as that. I am looking to use AutoCAD and Rhino 3D. I am pretty sure it will work well enough for me to ditch the PC.

glassbathroom
Aug 9, 2006, 05:35 AM
Exactly. And we all know how committed Autodesk is to the Mac platform :mad:


My thoughts precisely! Autodesk will are no friend of the Mac user.

torncanvas
Aug 9, 2006, 10:56 AM
Autodesk couldn't care less about us. Switch to modo.

Frobozz
Aug 9, 2006, 11:26 AM
This is good news, because it elminiates the last hurdle for Virtualization. For me, I understand top-end gaming may not come through a desktop virtualization engine (although Cider looks promising for compiled "ports".) However, being able to better utilize productivity and 3D apps that use 3D will be a big boost. And, being able to at least play a 3D game, even if the features have to be ratcheted down from the native version, would be a big plus.

Frobozz
Aug 9, 2006, 11:28 AM
Thanks for this AlexK.

I knew it was possible, but I didn't think it was as fast as that. I am looking to use AutoCAD and Rhino 3D. I am pretty sure it will work well enough for me to ditch the PC.

You should consider that as a short term solution until you can get away from both of those windows-only programs. There are literally dozens of viable, easier to use alternatives that work on Intel Macs running OS X.

glassbathroom
Aug 9, 2006, 11:49 AM
You should consider that as a short term solution until you can get away from both of those windows-only programs. There are literally dozens of viable, easier to use alternatives that work on Intel Macs running OS X.

Not wanting to get into a discussion about this. I have tried all the other CAD app but I want to and need to run AutoCad (LT will do). Rhino is my prefered modelling package - again I have tried loads of alternatives. Believe me I am not looking for an alternative now.

bowens
Aug 9, 2006, 12:31 PM
This is making me wish I would have tried to talk my boss into buying me a mac instead of a pc.

tkuechle
Aug 9, 2006, 01:36 PM
If Parallels can access GPU and perform well this is a good thing, I think, especially for most CAD app users. Most CAD apps use OpenGL to render, so any GPU that supports OpenGL should work without a hitch. I would think that the graphic cards makers would provide support to the makers of Parallels to fully utilize their GPU cards on Macs. As for Active-X support, I would think that this would be needed for Gamers, but not for most CAD jockeys, unless you use IKEA's free kitchen design software. Also, as I understand it, Cinema 4D (modeling, rendering and animation) kind of runs its own internal OS, so it is quite stable within the confines of whatever OS it is running in. I think that, because they can change thier internal OS to function on other platforms, then the rest of the program can be more easily changed to operate on different hardware and OS's. So, Cinema 4D is more easily ported to other platforms than some other competitors apps. Big deal? Not really. But, this approach might also have been done with other vendors apps too, so porting of apps to UB version might accelerate as time goes on. Lastly, the tools for creating and porting code are improving, so Mac users will have more software available to them, sooner than later.

Ktulu
Aug 10, 2006, 07:32 PM
Forget games, think about CAD and 3D software!

Finally AutoCAD and Maya on a MacBook Pro, while being able to do the rest of your work in Mac apps.

I don't know if someone already mentioned this, but Maya is already Mac OSX native-(complete and unlimited).

AutoCAD is another story though....

Hope this is not repeated information.:D

ezekielrage_99
Aug 10, 2006, 08:21 PM
I don't know if someone already mentioned this, but Maya is already Mac OSX native-(complete and unlimited).

AutoCAD is another story though....

Hope this is not repeated information.:D

The big one would be 3D Studio MAX on a Mac because as you said Maya is already native.

Ktulu
Aug 10, 2006, 08:30 PM
The big one would be 3D Studio MAX on a Mac because as you said Maya is already native.

I've used Maya-(very little) and have seen 3DSM being used, and 3DSM interface seems very unintuitive and un Mac-like.

Now this was some time ago, has the interface for 3DSM gotten better over time?:confused:

Akira
Aug 11, 2006, 01:47 AM
Yes Maya is ported to Mac OS X, but it's no Universal Binary!

Ktulu
Aug 11, 2006, 06:54 AM
Yes Maya is ported to Mac OS X, but it's no Universal Binary!

I noticed that when I recieved the notification of version 8.
I do hope this will change, it would be a shame to have a 3D modeling package of its calibere to be ported to OSX and then not continue on with it becoming a UB.