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Dane D.
Aug 8, 2006, 10:21 PM
As a diehard Mac user, one thing has always struck me when using a Windows machine - why the hell do people put up with such crap? An example, I had to copy four folders into the Shared Folder so I could access them. They totaled just over 5GBs, it took 23 mins to copy them, the drive is 50% open, with about 20 GBs left. This is way too long. And the whole Shared Folder concept, what a crock. I work in a small business, when we want something from another Mac, we connect as the owner of the Mac. This way I can see and use everything, not just some Shared Folder. Oh and copying to external ZIP drive on a PC, USB connection is dog slow. The whole experience of using a Windows machine drives me insane. I curse at it, I want to throw the POS out the window. :mad:

I could go on and on about Windows methods, but you get my point. Now without including games and MS Office, tell me why would any sane individual use Windows. Remember your answer cannot include gaming or MS Office. And to make it more interesting limit it to home computers and not business. I have always wondered about this.

jellybean
Aug 8, 2006, 10:30 PM
I use both mac and PC, but I'm more of a mac boy. But...

I don't like how a lot of macs are barely upgradeable. On my PC, I LIKE being able to go out and buy the latest and greatest graphics card and just stick it in. Not so easy in an iMac.

My old mac mini didn't last long... it feld old after just a few months, and I couldn't upgrade a thing. I would've liked a superdrive, maybe also a bigger internal hard drive, and if it were a PC I could've just bought the new parts and install them really easily.

So I have a love/hate thing about Apple's desktop hardware. It looks stunning, is practical and functional, and almost silent. (My PC sounds like a friggin Batmobile), but you can hardly upgrade them and things start looking very messy having several external hard drives and things plugged into it.

Apple's upgrade policy seems to be if it needs upgrading just chuck it out and buy a completely new mac.

ljump12
Aug 8, 2006, 10:42 PM
I believe your correct for home computers Apple is the best choice; It doesnt mean windows is a horrible choice; They are alot cheaper... i know all you guys come out and say Ohhhh NOOOo but equally configured blahblah same price. The problem with what yoru saying is equally configured....

You can go on dell.com and for $400 get a decent computer/monitor (Sure its not gonna be real fast), but i guarantee it will get the average mom onto Jcrew.com and gap.com and some minial ebaying, and let the kid write his report for school. Goto apple and buy the time you buy a computer and monitor; your talking $7-8 Bottom line...

YES apples support may be better... YES they may last longer.... but then again maybe not. Have you guys heard all the problems with these macbook's and whatnot?

Look i own a macbook, and yes its really cool; But you guys need to stop saying its the be alland end all for computers. Macs are far from perfect.

There are many apps that just wont run on mac; For instance, i cant listen to my MLB baseball online on mac; sure it may seem like something trivial but it jsut doesnt work. There are many other things that.. JUST WONT WORK... Sure this isnt apples fault; but its a problem with macs.

Like the user above me noted... Expandability. There just ISNT the options that PC has... you can't tell me their is. id ont care if the macpro has a million different configuration options. Ill bet any PC has more than a billion.

This all applies to hoome computing.. Dont even get me started on gaming. If you want to play games; Windows BLOWS mac out of the water

Look windows aint perfect; and neither is mac; Ive used both. One day maybe everything can live in harmony.. until then..........

Dane D.
Aug 8, 2006, 10:46 PM
I don't like how a lot of macs are barely upgradeable. On my PC, I LIKE being able to go out and buy the latest and greatest graphics card and just stick it in. Not so easy in an iMac.
Expandability. There just ISNT the options that PC has...

I realize that, what I am talking about is the user experience. The ability to sit down and actually get stuff done, with ease. Think of sitting in front of Mac and doing whatever it is you do. Then try the same thing on a PC. Ask yourself, how many steps did it take, how long did it take and was the end result what you wanted. Personally I don't buy computers every release, I see no reason to. Again, why would someone subject themselves to the pain of Windows.

sjpetry
Aug 8, 2006, 10:57 PM
why would someone subject themselves to the pain of Windows.
I have gotten several friend and family to realize this after fixing their Windows boxes. In the future, none of them will willingly buy another PC.:)

After G
Aug 8, 2006, 11:05 PM
Backwards compatibility. Mind you, it's not like I need this (right now), but I might someday. Microsoft works hard to make sure a lot of things can go over to a new system. Microsoft gets pushed around by its developers to keep old APIs and outdated methods that work. Whereas Apple pushes its developers to do new things with cool new stuff.

It's what a person knows. I remember when I introed my sister to Mac. She kept saying "Give me back my Windows!" for a LONG time. Now she wouldn't go back if I gave her a PC.

Special apps. Or features in apps. This is a pretty big one. It's the "If I can't do everything I can in Windows 1000% better it's not worth it." argument. Like how MSN Messenger for Mac can't do video chat. It's programmer laziness. Or lack of market. My uncle runs a VAIO because he has engineering stuff that's PC only.

The illusion you save money by upgrading. A new computer with the parts you want is probably cheaper than throwing out pieces of your old rig for three years trying to keep it running. But somehow people keep thinking it is cheaper to just add a new part to their old Pentium IV rig and it'll do fine. I'm sorry, but in most cases it won't help. Oftentimes, the expandability goes to waste. That's why there's no mid-range Mac. Most people don't need it, even if they don't realize it.

GFLPraxis
Aug 8, 2006, 11:06 PM
I could go on and on about Windows methods, but you get my point. Now without including games and MS Office, tell me why would any sane individual use Windows. Remember your answer cannot include gaming or MS Office. And to make it more interesting limit it to home computers and not business. I have always wondered about this.

Because as a child I was forced to use Windows and thus all my software is on it and I'm a cheapskate. Regardless, I'm currently saving for my new iMac and can't way to ditch the crap that is Windows.

zoziw
Aug 8, 2006, 11:10 PM
On the net it is kind of fun to antagonize Windows users but in real life I'm kind of torn on the subject.

I think it is true that the average user (and by that I don't mean anyone clever enough to find their way to this forum) will get in less trouble with a Mac than a PC while browsing the net.

However, I also think about things like how common WMV is on the net and how difficult it is to get it to play on a Mac. I mean think about it, you've got people out there who click "ok" to every prompt that pops up on the net and these people are going to have to be clever enough to download and unpack (requiring an obscure download) Windows Media Player for the Mac or go with something like Flip4Mac which, ime, still doesn't work well with streaming content.

I also think back to last August when I bought my two laptops, an iBook and an HP, and the remarkable difference in terms of hardware that I got with the HP for the same price as the much weaker iBook.

Still, I've seen so many people bork their Windows boxes out of plain ignorance that it is awfully hard to ignore the advantages of the Mac for internet usage.

Ultimately, most people are just plain afraid to switch.

eclipse525
Aug 8, 2006, 11:17 PM
Use Windows to play on most poker sites. Whatever sites do support Mac's, usually use a Java based player and there slow as crap.

~e

After G
Aug 8, 2006, 11:22 PM
Use Windows to play on most poker sites. Whatever sites do support Mac's, usually use a Java based player and there slow as crap.

~eI thought the OP said no games. Last I checked, poker was a game. :D

btopro
Aug 8, 2006, 11:54 PM
Why is it that all you die-hard Mac people walk around like you are of a higher order just because you use an apple computer? I grew up learning to use a Macintosh back in the late Atari days. Even then when a 486dx was out of the question in terms of speed I still learned to use both and saw the usefulness of both. In a home environment the elite community of the Apple and its price deter entry level users from jumping on one and going to work. The recent conference Jobs introduces the HIGHEST OF HIGHEST END MACS...who is this targeting when it's the big announcement of the day? It's obviously not mom and pop who just want to get online. Average home use is based heavily on cost. Win PC. Macs just don't have the productivity software and support across the board to go entirely Mac, which is why I have avoided them in the past (along with the price).

Mac's might be more reliable, but that's also in part because of support for products. If you've got 20+ programs from 20+ different companies running in the background then of course it's going to be unstable.

I don't buy the Mac-fan boys who think people that use PCs are just dumb. I'm going to buy a Mac Book soon and I was turned onto the idea for one reason - dual-boot. Boot camp/XP and I can use all the software / web browsing that I currently do and OS X for all of my web design / video editing. Both are useful in their own ways, I'm just sick of Mac junkies thinking that they can insult people by scoffing at the idea of using a PC for anything other then "viruses" and "installing update drivers".

Can you honestly tell me that you can do everything on a PC that you can on a Mac with the same level of quality when you stack a high end PC and a high end Mac against each other?:confused:

dejo
Aug 8, 2006, 11:57 PM
Can you honestly tell me that you can do everything on a PC that you can on a Mac with the same level of quality when you stack a high end PC and a high end Mac against each other?:confused:

No, I honestly can't. ;)

solvs
Aug 9, 2006, 12:08 AM
Because we have to. For some people that's all they know. Doesn't mean it's good, it just is. So people use them and people like have to support them. You'd be surprised at the number of people who just expect computing to suck and be hard.

For the record though, you could have just shared the folder the files were already in. ;) Not that it's intuitive, or fast, but it's there. Just right click.

iBookG4user
Aug 9, 2006, 12:29 AM
I have no clue why any sane individual would choose to use windows. I was first introduced to computers through an Apple ][e, then a performa 650 then a power macintosh and then another power macintosh. My family was forced to get a pc because my sister's damn school only used pcs. I jumped at the chance to go back to mac with my current iBook G4 and I like the Mac SO much better than the PC. I also have a high end gaming PC which I'm getting rid of within the week so I can get a MBP. The only reason I would use windows right now is to play an AVI or H.264 file that is unplayable on my iBook, because my PC is 3 fold faster than my iBook. Although I have registered 0 minutes on my PC in the last week and basically the whole day on my iBook. And besides OS X is shinier than windows XP :p.

FadeToBlack
Aug 9, 2006, 01:33 AM
About four months ago, I sold my Power Mac G4 (Dual 867) and bought a Dell XPS 400. I have grown up using Windows and I missed using ICQ (That's what most people use around here, oddly enough) and a few other things, like having a good version of WMP (which still sucks, BTW...I realize that now) and also having the ability to customize it with a internal memory card reader, etc.) I was also wanting to try out IE7 and WMP 11 and eventually Vista when it came out. There were a couple more reasons, I believe, but I can't think of 'em right now.

Well, after using the Dell for 4 months, I've came to the conclusion that I will be a Mac user from here on out. Windows just completely sucks. I haven't actually had any problems with my XPS, other than the memory card reader feeling really cheap and not recognizing the cards sometimes and some weird humming noises. It's been solid since I got it, but the OS is my problem with it. (Plus, it doesn't look nearly as good as a Mac)

Windows just feels so SLOW and clunky and out of date. Yeah, it's a decently stable OS, (haven't had it crash on me in these 4 months. App crashes, yes, but no system crashes.) but it just feels so bogged down all the time, even after I removed the biggest part of Dell's bloatware. I think it may be that OS X has much better memory management or something. I'm not sure. I'll tell ya, the 1.25GHz eMac that I used to have felt quite a bit faster than this Dell and I know the problem is the OS because the Pentium D is a pretty good processor, from what I understand. I can now remember Windows being slow like this before, but I guess I just got so used to OS X being fast that I didn't even consider that when buying the Dell.

Another thing, I have trouble finding good software for Windows. On the Mac, I know of all kinds of great software. On Windows, you have to wade through loads and loads of crappy software to find anything decent. It really sucks.

The simplicity of the Mac is another one of the greatest things about using one. If I had a problem on my Mac, it was usually an easy fix. (Actually can't remember ever having a problem that I couldn't solve on my Macs) On Windows, I don't even know where to start. Everything is much more complicated.

Earlier today, I ordered a new Mac mini Core Duo and I plan on sticking with that for a long time. I'm keeping my Dell 1707FP (LCD) and selling the XPS 400.

Man, it's gonna feel great to be back using OS X again.

Sorry for my rant. :cool:

btopro
Aug 9, 2006, 10:08 AM
Another thing, I have trouble finding good software for Windows. On the Mac, I know of all kinds of great software. On Windows, you have to wade through loads and loads of crappy software to find anything decent. It really sucks.

The simplicity of the Mac is another one of the greatest things about using one. If I had a problem on my Mac, it was usually an easy fix. (Actually can't remember ever having a problem that I couldn't solve on my Macs) On Windows, I don't even know where to start. Everything is much more complicated.


Just proving my point further that you guys don't know what you're talking about if you are just using a mac for simplicity....especially if you don't know how to do simple networking. Can't knock something you don't bother to figure out. The "oohhh shiney and cute with little bouncy animations and swoops to everything" OS X is nothing special and i'd rather use my resources multitasking which Mac's had no idea how to do until the recent switch. Can't wait for Leopard only because it'll have the final version of boot camp included and then I can use the best of both worlds.:p

Dane D.
Aug 9, 2006, 10:57 AM
btopro:
Why is it that all you die-hard Mac people walk around like you are of a higher order just because you use an apple computer?
Because we can see the insane ways that Windows wants you, the user, to do things.
btopro:
Macs just don't have the productivity software and support across the board to go entirely Mac, which is why I have avoided them in the past (along with the price).
I disagree, for home use. Now in the business world, yes there are apps that are Win only, but hopefully that will change.
btopro:
Mac's might be more reliable, but that's also in part because of support for products. If you've got 20+ programs from 20+ different companies running in the background then of course it's going to be unstable.
What's this all about, I don't understand your paragraph.
btopro:
I don't buy the Mac-fan boys who think people that use PCs are just dumb.
Never said they were dumb. Just question why use a product that is a pain in the ass.
btopro:
Can you honestly tell me that you can do everything on a PC that you can on a Mac with the same level of quality when you stack a high end PC and a high end Mac against each other?
My point is the how you got there.
solvs:
For the record though, you could have just shared the folder the files were already in. Not that it's intuitive, or fast, but it's there. Just right click.
Thats my point, Windows is non-intuitive.
btopro:
Just proving my point further that you guys don't know what you're talking about if you are just using a mac for simplicity....especially if you don't know how to do simple networking. Can't knock something you don't bother to figure out.
That's it, you hit the nail on the head. It doesn't have to be hard. I expect to sit down and use a computer, not waste my time looking for answers or trying to figure out something. Simplicity works, it is the experience of using a Mac.

heehee
Aug 9, 2006, 11:03 AM
I use a PC because of Autodesk products. Most of their software don't support Macs. Thats why. ;)

Dane D.
Aug 9, 2006, 12:40 PM
heehee:
I use a PC because of Autodesk products. Most of their software don't support Macs. Thats why.

You didn't follow the rules set in my first post. No work apps, this is CAD type software. So far no one has given a reason why use Windows over Mac. Explaining the desire to be subjected to such computering pain.

btopro
Aug 9, 2006, 01:04 PM
You didn't follow the rules set in my first post. No work apps, this is CAD type software. So far no one has given a reason why use Windows over Mac. Explaining the desire to be subjected to such computering pain.

Then I can pose the same question to you. It's a preference issue, and it so happens that Apple is the minority on this one. You are of the opinion, like most Apple users, that Windows is non-intuitive and a crappy environment for...anything really it would seem. I'd like to know how you arrive at this conclusion? You make it seem like it is a given that XP sucks when I've used macs for quite awhile and the main reason i switched to PC's was that they made more sense and allowed you to do more. Then again, that also brings into question what "doing more" really means but I don't understand the total hatred for the PC. I guess it's because there arn't any super smooth cases for the hardware and the menus don't waste GPU resources by being sucked away and fizzling in and doing all kinds of other "smooth" effects.

If you actually sat down and used a PC and knew what you were doing then you wouldn't have issues with it. You all find ways of crashing them "constantly" and "running slow", i'm curious how you do this as I've never really had a problem with the XP interface or software running on it, even when loading it up with programs running concurrently. I'd expect the same from the Mac when I get one.

I guess there's no real reasoning with Mac people, if they consider themselves a "mac person" then it's just because they don't know what they are doing on a PC and are therefore affraid of them.

Project
Aug 9, 2006, 01:34 PM
A member of my team has problems with Windows every single day. I lose around an hours worth of time "working with" Windows. I hate the way it intrudes so often. The performance becomes lacklustre after installing a handful of apps and running them,. I put it down to registry hell.

So, Why do we use it? Cos we work for Microsoft.

ljump12
Aug 9, 2006, 01:42 PM
You guys have failed to address the biggest point that i have made.. THE PRICE!!

THIS is why people continue to use windows; When mac releases an imac for $425 I GUARANTEEEE you will see people drop windows like hotcakes. until then.....

Project
Aug 9, 2006, 01:48 PM
If you actually sat down and used a PC and knew what you were doing then you wouldn't have issues with it.

Got to call ******** on this one sorry. Mac users often make blanket statements, but that doesnt justify one like this.

Believe me, I know what I am doing with Windows. Been using it since 3.1. Only recently switched to the Mac. And the difference is profound in my opinion. Not just on the underpinnings, because Windows is no slouch in that respect, but the refinement of the UI. What you call fancy effects, I mostly call attention to detail. There are times Apple miss the mark sure, but on the whole the UI of OSX is considerably more refined and intuitive than

And the whole It Just Works thing? Well, it does. I have zero problems on my Mac running pretty much the same apps I do on my Windows machine. On the whole it stays out of my way and lets me get on with my work.

Finally, going back to your initial comment; this is 2006. Not 1986. Users should not have to 'know what they are doing' to get stable performance and not want to tear their eyes out each and every day in the office. I see regular users, who arent techy like us on this forum, struggle with Windows. There is a deeper problem here than merely a fanboy on each side, flaming the other. Outside of the arroganct comments a lot of Mac users make, as well as those diehard Windows fans, I truly believe OSX to be a much more enjoyable experience that presents far less problems than Windows does. Is it because of the registry? The spaghetti code to maintain a connection with legacy software? Who knows. But hte proof is in the pudding for an awful lot of users. You may be cool with Windows. Im happy that you dont have the same maintenance woes a lot of us do. Really I am. But behind all the arrogance, there is a cause and reason for MAc users to feel smug I believe. And its more to do with the OS than the hardware.

steamboat26
Aug 9, 2006, 02:29 PM
The only appealing thing i can see to windows is if you have to have an app that only runs on windows, or if you want an inexpensive computer. Also, i think many windows users are just so used to windows that they don't want to try anything else. To be fair, i don't find that all PCs are horrible. Almost everybody automatically relates dells to PCs. Dells are HORRIBLE computers. When you compare an Apple to a Dell, the apple will win every time. My family has an HP that we have been using for a year, and while there has been some slow down, it is still a pretty good computer. Bottom line- if you are going to compare Macs and PCs, don't compare a crappy company (dell) to a good one (apple).

7on
Aug 9, 2006, 02:41 PM
You guys have failed to address the biggest point that i have made.. THE PRICE!!

THIS is why people continue to use windows; When mac releases an imac for $425 I GUARANTEEEE you will see people drop windows like hotcakes. until then.....

And Apple could too. Maybe not an iMac, but a mac tower + lcd combo. Maybe a 15" LCD and a 1.5Core Solo (and this is after Core 2 is out). A combo drive, no AP/BT, 40GB hdd, 512MB of RAM, and a larger case for less R&D. They could sell that for $400 - and advertise it as an internet/word processor machine.

dsnort
Aug 9, 2006, 03:01 PM
Got to call ******** on this one sorry. Mac users often make blanket statements, but that doesnt justify one like this.

Believe me, I know what I am doing with Windows. Been using it since 3.1. Only recently switched to the Mac. And the difference is profound in my opinion. Not just on the underpinnings, because Windows is no slouch in that respect, but the refinement of the UI. What you call fancy effects, I mostly call attention to detail. There are times Apple miss the mark sure, but on the whole the UI of OSX is considerably more refined and intuitive than

And the whole It Just Works thing? Well, it does. I have zero problems on my Mac running pretty much the same apps I do on my Windows machine. On the whole it stays out of my way and lets me get on with my work.

Finally, going back to your initial comment; this is 2006. Not 1986. Users should not have to 'know what they are doing' to get stable performance and not want to tear their eyes out each and every day in the office. I see regular users, who arent techy like us on this forum, struggle with Windows. There is a deeper problem here than merely a fanboy on each side, flaming the other. Outside of the arroganct comments a lot of Mac users make, as well as those diehard Windows fans, I truly believe OSX to be a much more enjoyable experience that presents far less problems than Windows does. Is it because of the registry? The spaghetti code to maintain a connection with legacy software? Who knows. But hte proof is in the pudding for an awful lot of users. You may be cool with Windows. Im happy that you dont have the same maintenance woes a lot of us do. Really I am. But behind all the arrogance, there is a cause and reason for MAc users to feel smug I believe. And its more to do with the OS than the hardware.

I'll second that opinion. I used PC's until I switched in January of this year. Everything from 3.1 to XP Pro SP1,and a lot of time on NT 4.0(?). I'm not a computer junkie, nor am I terribly savy as to the innner workings of one. All I know is that since I switched to Mac OS, I spend more time doing things with my computer, and less time doing things to my computer.

Timepass
Aug 9, 2006, 03:04 PM
Can you honestly tell me that you can do everything on a PC that you can on a Mac with the same level of quality when you stack a high end PC and a high end Mac against each other?:confused:

you know that statement goes both ways. I can think of some things that I do on a PC that no mac could hope of doing at the same level. It goes both ways. It all comes down to software and there is quitea bit of software that PC uses have that you can not get for a mac.

dsnort
Aug 9, 2006, 03:08 PM
You guys have failed to address the biggest point that i have made.. THE PRICE!!

THIS is why people continue to use windows; When mac releases an imac for $425 I GUARANTEEEE you will see people drop windows like hotcakes. until then.....

You may be right, but, Apple has already been down that road. Almost reached oblivion on that road in the mid 90's. And now even Dell is looking to de-emphasize low cost systems in their marketing strategy! :eek:

Link below gives some interesting insight, as well as other info.

http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060809011851

jaxstate
Aug 9, 2006, 03:36 PM
Software, that's why I still use Windows.

LoveMacMini
Aug 9, 2006, 03:41 PM
Because it just works. For me it works magically. I haven't gotten a virus since the mid 90's, yet to get spyware, I must be a miracle worker!

Why use Ferrari's? Toyota's do the same thing.

Why use an axe? A chain saw is faster.

Why use a fork? Chopsticks are more traditional.

Why wear pants? Shorts are better in the summer.

dsnort
Aug 9, 2006, 03:53 PM
It all comes down to software and there is quitea bit of software that PC uses have that you can not get for a mac.

This is true. When I "switched", I had to decide if I could live without this software, or find mac compatible substitutes. Luckily, I am not an engineer! However, with the intel switch, bootcamp, parallels, the transgaming compiling engine, and some of the things going on with Wine, and the fact that Apple is the fastest growing segment of the computer market, there is hope that the software companies that are "Windows Only" will begin to see their way towards adapting their apps to Mac. And that's a good thing. For us and them.

Dane D.
Aug 9, 2006, 03:57 PM
btopro:
If you actually sat down and used a PC and knew what you were doing then you wouldn't have issues with it.
I do use PCs at work, MS InterDev, PageMaker, Acrobat, Acrobat Distiller, Office, Thunderbird, Opera, SeaMonkey, Firefox all on XP. These are relatively new computers with 512MB RAM or more, P4 cpu, and mid-size HDs.
dsnort:
All I know is that since I switched to Mac OS, I spend more time doing things with my computer, and less time doing things to my computer.
This is what I mean. Thank you for saying it.
Project:
And the whole It Just Works thing? Well, it does. I have zero problems on my Mac running pretty much the same apps I do on my Windows machine. On the whole it stays out of my way and lets me get on with my work.
I have in my sig. my home computers. Never had one hardware problem (changed the battery in all), never a problem with the OS or apps. The eMac and G3 run 24/7, no sleep for me don't like the wait for wakeup. Bottom line, I can be smug about Macs because in the end they just work.

timswim78
Aug 9, 2006, 04:11 PM
I could go on and on about Windows methods, but you get my point. Now without including games and MS Office, tell me why would any sane individual use Windows. Remember your answer cannot include gaming or MS Office. And to make it more interesting limit it to home computers and not business. I have always wondered about this.

I use Linux, OS X, and Windows XP at home because each one of them has its nice points. Here are some of the home benefits of Windows. The work list would be even longer.

For home:
- More printers and other peripherals work with Windows than OS X.
- There are more choices for software available on Windows than on OS X.
- Generally, a computer from Dell, Emachines, or a homebuilt are more configureable than Apple computers. You have to spend $2000+ to get a Mac that allows you to switch optical drives, add a second hard disk, or plug in a new video card.
- People don't won't their hardware dictated to them. Even the least expensive Windows PC's have built-in memory card readers or have the ability to have them inexpensively added.
- Front Row is a joke when compared to Windows Media Center. People want to record their television shows on their computer. Even if Front Row allowed video recording, you would have to buy a clunky external tv tuner to get the signal. (Whereas you can just pop a TV tuner into the PCI slot on most Windows boxes.)


Just some off of the top of my head.

dsnort
Aug 9, 2006, 04:14 PM
I have in my sig. my home computers.

:eek: Nice collection. I'm envious!:p

hulugu
Aug 9, 2006, 04:16 PM
...The recent conference Jobs introduces the HIGHEST OF HIGHEST END MACS...who is this targeting when it's the big announcement of the day?

The answer's in the title of the conference, World Wide Developers Conference .

Macs just don't have the productivity software and support across the board to go entirely Mac, which is why I have avoided them in the past (along with the price).

Price is widely overstated and value counts too. What do you mean by productivity software?
As for support, apple.com/support is valuable, the Genius bars in the stores are pretty good, and there are many small companies offering support as well.


Mac's might be more reliable, but that's also in part because of support for products. If you've got 20+ programs from 20+ different companies running in the background then of course it's going to be unstable.

Huh? The OS should be able to keep memory management and other problems from happening, so the worst that happens is a buggy program crashes. Windows, however, does have this problem.

I don't buy the Mac-fan boys who think people that use PCs are just dumb.

Some PC users are total idiots and you know it (and to be fair, there are Mac users who turn their machine off by pulling the power plug out), but many just didn't know they had a choice or were too afraid of being 'different' from their neighbors that they keep buying a dodgy platform that they hate. Mac users should be more gracious about this, but PC fans can be annoying and have a knee-jerk reaction to the Mac as a toy.

...Both are useful in their own ways, I'm just sick of Mac junkies thinking that they can insult people by scoffing at the idea of using a PC for anything other then "viruses" and "installing update drivers".

Can you honestly tell me that you can do everything on a PC that you can on a Mac with the same level of quality when you stack a high end PC and a high end Mac against each other?:confused:

I agree, both platforms are useful, but I find that much of what is being done on a PC is dealing with viruses and installing update drivers and rebooting the machine. I find that people have $1000+ PCs and are getting $100 of value from it because doing cool things is too hard for them, and the day-to-day headaches from Windows makes the computer a problem rather than a solution. Some people get fabulous value from Windows, and I consider them to be some kind of witch-doctor playing with dark forces. ;)

I can make a Mac rock'n'roll, I can build wireless networks in minutes, web-documents and videos in mere hours, I can make the Mac speak thunder and lightning.

Meanwhile the PC keeps demanding that I "clean the desktop of unused icons."

One of the things I think is interesting, is the problem isn't really the hardware which ranges from cheap crap to impressive stuff, but Windows. Windows is badly designed, poorly implemented, and kludgy as all get out.

But, that's just my opinion.

jhu
Aug 9, 2006, 04:24 PM
I could go on and on about Windows methods, but you get my point. Now without including games and MS Office, tell me why would any sane individual use Windows. Remember your answer cannot include gaming or MS Office. And to make it more interesting limit it to home computers and not business. I have always wondered about this.

so no games, ms office, or other business uses? in that case, you might as well ask why we don't all use windows 95 or mac os 7.

hulugu
Aug 9, 2006, 05:07 PM
so no games, ms office, or other business uses? in that case, you might as well ask why we don't all use windows 95 or mac os 7.

Photoshop, Illustrator...HD Video...

Businesses could probably survive on Windows 95 if they still had to (some still are), but the creative types need the power and UI goodness of the newest software. Unless, we're going back to woodcuts and film, in which case never mind.

Games drive hardware, but business users? Not unless you're including servers.

jhu
Aug 9, 2006, 06:20 PM
Photoshop, Illustrator...HD Video...

Businesses could probably survive on Windows 95 if they still had to (some still are), but the creative types need the power and UI goodness of the newest software. Unless, we're going back to woodcuts and film, in which case never mind.


well sure, but depending on where you work, that is also considered "business use."

solvs
Aug 9, 2006, 07:45 PM
But behind all the arrogance, there is a cause and reason for MAc users to feel smug I believe. And its more to do with the OS than the hardware.
I agree. I'd never say Macs were perfect, believe me, but for a lot of things most people do they are a lot better (IMO). You don't need to know how your car works to drive it, nor your other electronics like TVs and toasters. Sure, computers are more complicated, and you do need to change the oil in your car or put gas in it, as well as know how to use a Tivo or VCR to record something. But as an IT person I am constantly amazed at the issues we have with Microsoft software. Especially Windows. And people just put up with it. That's always my argument though, if it was good, you wouldn't really need to be that smart to use it, it would just work.

Besides, I do this professionally and I still run into weird things that don't make any sense, so even if you know what you're doing, you can still have issues.

Thats my point, Windows is non-intuitive.
I'm not disagreeing, just pointing it out. ;)

btopro
Aug 9, 2006, 08:02 PM
Thank you project for finally saying the things I was looking for. It's not that I have a problem with OSX (I haven't fully used it for a long period of time so I can't claim to that) it's that I have a problem w/ the fanboys of Apple (I don't know any XP fanboys... it gets the job done, not wonderful).

Also, Dell's arn't crap, (I used to have a Dell and my parents own their 2nd one now) it's the fact that you can get really low end dells which have really low end parts but... they are really cheap. I've seen cpu w/ monitor for 300 before on their site. XP doesn't run as smoothly as OSX but I don't think it's a crippling experience by any means. Yea, my computer crashed today when the wireless card I have (Media Center PCs + wireless connections = hokey) cut out and then crashed the VPN software that I was using with dreamweaver (which then crashed) but that's a lot of different software interacting and I have a bad wireless card. You have a Mac OS, built JUST for a Mac with Airport Mac wireless products, designed for and on Mac only hardware.... If Microsoft designed their own computers I would be a bit pissed if it didn't work perfectly.

The main point of my comments were really just to stir people up and get them talking about it (and smug mac fanboys annoy the hell out of me). As i've said I'm going to get a MacBook in the near future and run both Operating systems.

Dane D.
Aug 9, 2006, 10:06 PM
jhu:
so no games, ms office, or other business uses? in that case, you might as well ask why we don't all use windows 95 or mac os 7.
I was trying rule out games and Office because than it becomes a discussion of those two. I could still use System 7, I have an old PowerPC 7100 sitting at work in a closet with Photoshop 2.5, Illustrator v5, QuarkXPress 3.3 and other graphic software. I could install new battery, larger HD, RAM and find a way to tap into my network, no problem producing work, just damn slow.

I just visited my brother tonight, he finally made the leap from Win98 to XPPro for his home computer. This took place Sat., Aug. 5, 4 days later he wants to go back to 98. He calls it bloatware. So far he has spent Sat., Sun., Monday and Tuesday night 'tweaking' the system. He is a diehard Windows person, can't stand XP. And he has been using 'PCs' since early 80's.

btopro:
As i've said I'm going to get a MacBook in the near future and run both Operating systems.
I hope you enjoy the MacBook, my plans are to wait until another generation of Mac Pros are released. And bite my tongue when having to use the PCs at work. A little background, I have been using Macs since the IIcx days, so I know a little bit about them. Never once did a PC enter my mind as a possible home computer, looking at Win 3.1, 95 and 98,; my mind and stomach couldn't take it.:)

Timepass
Aug 9, 2006, 10:19 PM
see for me some software that runs only on windows is Autocad and microstation (both PC only) and some scheduling software that I have to run. Plus some cost estimating software. None of which a mac verson is out that is even REMOTILY up to par with the windows versons (if any even exist it so weak that it is worthless) but then again it high end stuff and fall under pro level software and when we get there we are in a different ball park than you average everyday user.

Mav451
Aug 9, 2006, 10:30 PM
Never once did a PC enter my mind as a possible home computer, looking at Win 3.1, 95 and 98,; my mind and stomach couldn't take it.:)

Haha, the very reason my friend switched was b/c he was BSODing like crazy on his Win98 machine. The reason I never fully switched (Apple on the desktop) is b/c I wasn't experiencing the same problems he had. He had an old, aged Pentium 1 Intel box, while I had just gotten a high-end AMD Thunderbird box from a local mom-and-pop. I was running 98SE and didn't experience any problems.

My experience from 98SE to XP has been uneventful. No glaring BSODs, viruses, or the other standard list of complaints. Other than some quirkiness with XP vanilla, going to XP SP1 and SP2 Integrated were pretty seamless, and again, uneventful. Simply, I don't see a reason to go to OSX fully (on the desktop).

And yes, I know you didn't ask for it--but gaming is a plenty good reason that I stay PC for now. Internet browsing is not much different at all, considering I'm on FF. Music? I use iTunes...no difference there

Mav451
Aug 9, 2006, 10:33 PM
I just visited my brother tonight, he finally made the leap from Win98 to XPPro for his home computer. This took place Sat., Aug. 5, 4 days later he wants to go back to 98. He calls it bloatware. So far he has spent Sat., Sun., Monday and Tuesday night 'tweaking' the system. He is a diehard Windows person, can't stand XP. And he has been using 'PCs' since early 80's.


Heh, I too went through the same stage, when I went from 98SE to XP vanilla back in 2003 (which is arguably very late adoption). I believed that by running some registry tweak + stopping specific services, etc. etc. that it'd make a big difference.

I really doesn't. Provided he isn't running on 384MB of RAM or less, the tweaks aren't absolutely necessary--and if his hardware sucks...classic theme it is, AKA "Windows 2000".

btopro
Aug 9, 2006, 11:06 PM
XP does have too many things running by default that you have to tweak away but that's also not an XP issue, it's typically the manufactorer that you buy it from (dell and hp both put so much worthless garbage on there that runs in the background from the onset. who needs auto updating virus software anyway? :D )

I'm also waiting for another itteration to get the Macbook. Looking to get the following when it's available:
Black Macbook
2 ghrtz core 2 duo
2 gigs ram

I don't partitularly care about the rest of the settings, especially since I have 440 gigs of storage in the PC i'm using currently. Has anyone gotten a mac and bought ram from another company? I don't plan on bying a 400 dollar 2x1 gig sticks when I can get them on new egg or else where for around 200 (667 DDR2 sticks)

dsnort
Aug 9, 2006, 11:39 PM
see for me some software that runs only on windows is Autocad and microstation (both PC only) and some scheduling software that I have to run. Plus some cost estimating software. None of which a mac verson is out that is even REMOTILY up to par with the windows versons (if any even exist it so weak that it is worthless) but then again it high end stuff and fall under pro level software and when we get there we are in a different ball park than you average everyday user.

Yes, this is very high end stuff, definitely PC only at this time. My hope is that with the new Bootcamp and Parallels capability, some users at this high end will buy MacPros and run Win on them. And as they get some exposure to MacOS, begin to ask Autodesk, "why don't you write this for mac, so I don't have to buy Windows"?

FadeToBlack
Aug 9, 2006, 11:59 PM
Has anyone gotten a mac and bought ram from another company? I don't plan on bying a 400 dollar 2x1 gig sticks when I can get them on new egg or else where for around 200 (667 DDR2 sticks)

I recommend Other World Computing (macsales.com) for RAM. When I got RAM for my old eMac and Power Mac, I got it from them and never had a problem. Right now, they have 2GB (2x1GB) sticks for $217.99. This is for the MacBook, BTW.

Lollypop
Aug 10, 2006, 01:22 AM
XP does have too many things running by default that you have to tweak away but that's also not an XP issue, it's typically the manufactorer that you buy it from (dell and hp both put so much worthless garbage on there that runs in the background from the onset. who needs auto updating virus software anyway? :D )

I'm also waiting for another itteration to get the Macbook. Looking to get the following when it's available:
Black Macbook
2 ghrtz core 2 duo
2 gigs ram

I don't partitularly care about the rest of the settings, especially since I have 440 gigs of storage in the PC i'm using currently. Has anyone gotten a mac and bought ram from another company? I don't plan on bying a 400 dollar 2x1 gig sticks when I can get them on new egg or else where for around 200 (667 DDR2 sticks)

Ive always used stock memory for all my macs, while I know i shouldnt apple has come a long way with this particular issue, and now that they use intel chipsets all memory that works on that chipset should work on the mac as well.

I started with dos 6.22, went windows 3.11, windows 95, 98, 2000 and then XP before I went Mac (10.3), while i agree 100% that macs are a bit more expensive and that apple should have a midrange Im 100% happy with using the Mac exclusively at home (work gets dictated to me unfortunately).

If MS were to ever build their own PC, then we can compare MS and apple more directly, but untill then the fact that apple does the entire thing (OS< hardware and most software) is their advantage, and thats what i use the mac for, I want to do things with my mac, not to it, but because of the unix underpinnings if im in a kinky mood and want to start doing things to it, I can.

For me it was about options, and as shoked as a lot of windows and linux people are, the mac does offer a lot of options. Windows gives me a lot of software, but all the stuff I do in windows, I can do on the mac as well.

zephead
Aug 10, 2006, 01:28 AM
I use Windows because I can't afford a MacBook (as of yet) :o, but as soon as I get enough, I'm ditching Windows faster than you can say "[insert app here] is not responding."

btopro
Aug 10, 2006, 12:15 PM
I just hope CS:source works with Bootcamp. If it does im more then set.:cool:

Timepass
Aug 10, 2006, 12:38 PM
Yes, this is very high end stuff, definitely PC only at this time. My hope is that with the new Bootcamp and Parallels capability, some users at this high end will buy MacPros and run Win on them. And as they get some exposure to MacOS, begin to ask Autodesk, "why don't you write this for mac, so I don't have to buy Windows"?

see I dont see that high end software moving over to OSX. it is just not worth the cost. Some simple cold hard facts get in the way. The Coprate world does not uses Macs. even less so in that sector of the market. And to top it off the software I am talking about is not sold in large numbers and clinets that would use it I thinking a at best 2% or so use mac. Just not worth the money when you may sell 10 units to all the mac users. It just cold hard facts. Plus a lot of those users would complain that it does look pretty and mac like. That and lets say autocad they would complain because god forbid it has a command line. That is so PC like (sorry cheap shot joke I could nt hold back)

Bootcamp is a hack around the larger problem. OSX does not run a lot of much needed software. Parallels by design has to be unstable. You are running a very complex OS on top of another very complex OS which is running on top of other stuff. Anything wrong in ANY of the layers can effect the ones above it and the errors can mangify as you go up. Compared to lets say DOS OSX is very unstable by design because it is complex.

Parallels and bootcamp are both hacks to get around the larger problem that OSX doesnt run the stuff. It that plane and simple. And I dont see that changing in the next 5-10 years in that area of the market.

dsnort
Aug 10, 2006, 08:48 PM
[Double Post. Mod please delete

dsnort
Aug 10, 2006, 08:49 PM
Parallels and bootcamp are both hacks to get around the larger problem that OSX doesnt run the stuff. It that plane and simple. And I dont see that changing in the next 5-10 years in that area of the market.

I believe I agreed that Mac OSX doesn't have the selection of software that Windows does. That was a major consideration to my switching to Mac, could I live without my PC only software? Luckily, I could. And I say it was was lucky, because it allowed me to choose my OS. I wasn't forced to it. And I was able to choose what is, IMO, a better computing experience. More intuitive, more stable, lower maintenance. And if everyone could choose, it would be better for all. It word force M$ to come out with better products, which would force Apple to come out with better, which would force M$ to come...... We, the consumer, win.
And don't make the mistake of thinking that corporate world sticks with M$ because they like it. A 2002 study of businesses found that 38% were considering changing platforms due to dissatisfaction with M$. ( Considering, but face huge hurdles of inertia).

http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18905.html

BTW, I'm pretty sure Bootcamp makes it possible to run Windows natively, no additional layers.
And there are some interesting developments for running Windows apps on Mac OS natively, without Windows. ( Very limited so far, but a step in the right direction)

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=213308&highlight=wine

Dane D.
Aug 10, 2006, 09:14 PM
Timepass:
see I dont see that high end software moving over to OSX. it is just not worth the cost. Some simple cold hard facts get in the way. The Coprate world does not uses Macs. even less so in that sector of the market. And to top it off the software I am talking about is not sold in large numbers and clinets that would use it I thinking a at best 2% or so use mac. Just not worth the money when you may sell 10 units to all the mac users. It just cold hard facts. Plus a lot of those users would complain that it does look pretty and mac like. That and lets say autocad they would complain because god forbid it has a command line. That is so PC like (sorry cheap shot joke I could nt hold back)

Bootcamp is a hack around the larger problem. OSX does not run a lot of much needed software. Parallels by design has to be unstable. You are running a very complex OS on top of another very complex OS which is running on top of other stuff. Anything wrong in ANY of the layers can effect the ones above it and the errors can mangify as you go up. Compared to lets say DOS OSX is very unstable by design because it is complex.

Parallels and bootcamp are both hacks to get around the larger problem that OSX doesnt run the stuff. It that plane and simple. And I dont see that changing in the next 5-10 years in that area of the market.

I would like to have this discussion stay on the home market, but certain people don't understand that. Besides that, where does this guy come from. Its my understanding that Bootcamp allows an individual to choose which system to boot into. Doesn't sound like a hack to me.

For the average non-computer person in the home environment, Macs are by far the superior platform. Not perfect, but alot closer than Windows will ever be. Lets face reality, using a Windows PC is constant maintenance. Macs no maintenance. Windows confusing and un-intutive, Macs simple and easy to understand. And which will still be in use in a few years - the Mac.

Timepass
Aug 10, 2006, 09:36 PM
I would like to have this discussion stay on the home market, but certain people don't understand that. Besides that, where does this guy come from. Its my understanding that Bootcamp allows an individual to choose which system to boot into. Doesn't sound like a hack to me.

For the average non-computer person in the home environment, Macs are by far the superior platform. Not perfect, but alot closer than Windows will ever be. Lets face reality, using a Windows PC is constant maintenance. Macs no maintenance. Windows confusing and un-intutive, Macs simple and easy to understand. And which will still be in use in a few years - the Mac.


I have to use the software at home for school right now and later for work. Reason I call it a hack workaround is it require dual booting for it ot work. You cannt runnt the software in OSX. Boot camp allows the users to boot into windows if needed. But in the end it still a hack work around to the larger problem. remember that it would require everything to be duel install taking up 2 times the amount of room and requiring 2 time the ammount of money to pay for the software that is can run on both. Example being office. I finish something up in the windows side and need to write up some stuff using my work. Well cannt exacatly boot back into OSX to do it. I am calling it a hack because it is a hack to a much larger problem.

Also window interface is not as bad as everyone makes it out ot be. I for one complete hate the menus being only at the top of the screen. I like it being on the indivial windows and it becomes even a larger issues when I work on a larger monitor or 2 monitors having the menus on so far away from my projects.

Windows is just a different plateform. Take away the viruses and spyware side of the argument and just look at the UI part. I see them at about the same for the most part. OSX has it flaws and things I hate about it and does not make any sence to me what so ever (menu only at one point. resizing only in one corner things like that) windows has it own share but for the most part they UI are just different. I dont really see one being much better than the other.

Mav451
Aug 10, 2006, 11:10 PM
Lets face reality, using a Windows PC is constant maintenance. Macs no maintenance. Windows confusing and un-intutive, Macs simple and easy to understand. And which will still be in use in a few years - the Mac.

Things aren't as black & white as you assume them to be. The maintenance argument didn't apply to me 3 years ago, when I was on 98SE and it certainly still does not apply to me now. If anything, the PMac G5's at my university are the ones in need of constant maintenance--you can reference my thread on that if you search for it.

jhu
Aug 11, 2006, 12:20 AM
Lets face reality, using a Windows PC is constant maintenance. Macs no maintenance. Windows confusing and un-intutive, Macs simple and easy to understand. And which will still be in use in a few years - the Mac.

great! no more security updates needed with my mac!

hulugu
Aug 11, 2006, 12:46 AM
Thank you project for finally saying the things I was looking for. It's not that I have a problem with OSX (I haven't fully used it for a long period of time so I can't claim to that) it's that I have a problem w/ the fanboys of Apple (I don't know any XP fanboys... it gets the job done, not wonderful).

Also, Dell's arn't crap, (I used to have a Dell and my parents own their 2nd one now) it's the fact that you can get really low end dells which have really low end parts but... they are really cheap. I've seen cpu w/ monitor for 300 before on their site. XP doesn't run as smoothly as OSX but I don't think it's a crippling experience by any means. Yea, my computer crashed today when the wireless card I have (Media Center PCs + wireless connections = hokey) cut out and then crashed the VPN software that I was using with dreamweaver (which then crashed) but that's a lot of different software interacting and I have a bad wireless card. You have a Mac OS, built JUST for a Mac with Airport Mac wireless products, designed for and on Mac only hardware.... If Microsoft designed their own computers I would be a bit pissed if it didn't work perfectly.

The main point of my comments were really just to stir people up and get them talking about it (and smug mac fanboys annoy the hell out of me). As i've said I'm going to get a MacBook in the near future and run both Operating systems.

How tiresome, the new hotness is to complain about how Mac users are smug, pretentious (insert insult), blah, blah, blah. Not everyone is the same way, and I have yet to see in this thread or many others a defense of the Mac OS that was anything but logical and thoughtful.

Secondly, go to a site like Slashdot and you'll find all sorts of trolls expressing their disdain for the Mac and the sexual orientation of those who use them. There are XP fanboys who will say without irony: Macs suck.

For you XP is a decent OS that you like and has served you and others like Mav, well. And, yes you can find a Dell on sale that might serve your needs, but for me XP is a waste of time, buggy and difficult to use and often running on mediocre hardware. Not to mention the huge pile of patches I had to install this week.

Lollypop
Aug 11, 2006, 12:55 AM
great! no more security updates needed with my mac!

The difference is that until recently the security updates werent imediate necesity, on windows if you dont upgrade your AV, anti spyware, anti addware, and software updates the minute they come out you can become infected.

Also please define maintenance, are we talking hardware or software? Software update in my mind does a good job, most of the time I just let it download in the background and then restart my app once its done, that to me isnt a huge issue, early on with XP almost every update required a reboot... how convenient is that?

jhu
Aug 11, 2006, 01:48 AM
The difference is that until recently the security updates werent imediate necesity, on windows if you dont upgrade your AV, anti spyware, anti addware, and software updates the minute they come out you can become infected.


security updates are always a necessity, unless the computer isn't on a network. on the other hand, i don't have anti-virus software and am doing just fine. most "viruses" require user interaction nowadays.


Also please define maintenance, are we talking hardware or software? Software update in my mind does a good job, most of the time I just let it download in the background and then restart my app once its done, that to me isnt a huge issue, early on with XP almost every update required a reboot... how convenient is that?

i'll leave the burden of defining maintenance up to you since you brought it up.

jhu
Aug 11, 2006, 01:53 AM
How tiresome, the new hotness is to complain about how Mac users are smug, pretentious (insert insult), blah, blah, blah. Not everyone is the same way, and I have yet to see in this thread or many others a defense of the Mac OS that was anything but logical and thoughtful.

actually, the complaint about smugness has been going on ever since the macintosh was introduced in 1984. and for the most part it is true. the only ones i've met who weren't smug tended to be the general computing enthusiast and system agnostic.


Secondly, go to a site like Slashdot and you'll find all sorts of trolls expressing their disdain for the Mac and the sexual orientation of those who use them. There are XP fanboys who will say without irony: Macs suck.


odd. i don't see them. but then my threshold is set at +1 to weed out crap like that.

FadeToBlack
Aug 11, 2006, 02:09 AM
How tiresome, the new hotness is to complain about how Mac users are smug, pretentious (insert insult), blah, blah, blah. Not everyone is the same way, and I have yet to see in this thread or many others a defense of the Mac OS that was anything but logical and thoughtful.

Secondly, go to a site like Slashdot and you'll find all sorts of trolls expressing their disdain for the Mac and the sexual orientation of those who use them. There are XP fanboys who will say without irony: Macs suck.

For you XP is a decent OS that you like and has served you and others like Mav, well. And, yes you can find a Dell on sale that might serve your needs, but for me XP is a waste of time, buggy and difficult to use and often running on mediocre hardware. Not to mention the huge pile of patches I had to install this week.

Very well said.

I've used both Mac OS X and Windows extensively and I prefer OS X. Just my opinion, of course.

My Mac mini is supposed to be delivered Monday! This is the most excited I've been since I got my first Mac. :)

c-Row
Aug 11, 2006, 02:11 AM
remember that it would require everything to be duel install taking up 2 times the amount of room and requiring 2 time the ammount of money to pay for the software that is can run on both.

Again, this depends on the software and its license agreements. I am doing most of my "work" in Ableton Live and Propellerheads Reason both allow installing on XP and OSX, as long as you don't work in both installations at the same time - which, with Bootcamp, you wouldn't do anyway.

hulugu
Aug 11, 2006, 02:22 AM
actually, the complaint about smugness has been going on ever since the macintosh was introduced in 1984. and for the most part it is true. the only ones i've met who weren't smug tended to be the general computing enthusiast and system agnostic.



odd. i don't see them. but then my threshold is set at +1 to weed out crap like that.

I think the smugness comment has become knee-jerk, it's just an insult to hurl without any thought. I firmly believe that some of the people who call Mac users 'smug' or 'pretentious' don't even really know the meanings of the words.

I actually mod on Slashdot, so I can see all the -5 trolls if I want to. Slashdot was just one example, there are Windows fanboys who foam at the mouth and anyone who says there aren't is either inattentive or stupid.

Lollypop
Aug 11, 2006, 02:32 AM
security updates are always a necessity, unless the computer isn't on a network. on the other hand, i don't have anti-virus software and am doing just fine. most "viruses" require user interaction nowadays.


Let me clarify, on the mac you can forget to update your security software for a while, on windows, you cant. Wasnt saying that security updates are not required, was simply saying that on the mac os you can get away a bit longer without a update. (currently, lets hope it doesnt change)


i'll leave the burden of defining maintenance up to you since you brought it up.

Funny that you should say that, was having a similair discussion with one of our network guys, he said that he heard that there were a few maintainance issues with the macs, I asked him what issues, he could answer.... For me hardware maintainance hasnt been a issue, and software maintainance has also be much easier than on windows.

JackSYi
Aug 11, 2006, 04:09 AM
Games. Specifically Half-Life 2.

Timepass
Aug 11, 2006, 08:17 AM
Let me clarify, on the mac you can forget to update your security software for a while, on windows, you cant. Wasnt saying that security updates are not required, was simply saying that on the mac os you can get away a bit longer without a update. (currently, lets hope it doesnt change)



Funny that you should say that, was having a similair discussion with one of our network guys, he said that he heard that there were a few maintainance issues with the macs, I asked him what issues, he could answer.... For me hardware maintainance hasnt been a issue, and software maintainance has also be much easier than on windows.


You know on XP you can set it to be done Automaticly. That right Automaticly. You the user dont have to do ANY interation to make sure done. You just set it and forget it.

lets see 1 year of not doing any maintance on a XP system right now and it still running great. All I done on it in the past year is 10 mins worth of quick check ot make sure everything is working ok (and only reason I am only home once every 3 months and it my parents computer. so I dont use it daily to know if something is going wrong) let see no issues with the OS. now the only real complains I get up it all relate to the computer is 6 years old and it is "so slow" but that relates to it age and the hardware being so far outdated. But system maintance to the OS none has needed to be done. All scans and updates are done automaticly at like 3 am.

There goes you system maintance arguement. All that extra work took me maybe 10 mins to set up. And I pretty sure you have spent more than that doing maintaince work on your mac installing updates.

Dane D.
Aug 11, 2006, 12:15 PM
Timepass:
There goes you system maintenance arguement. All that extra work took me maybe 10 mins to set up. And I pretty sure you have spent more than that doing maintaince work on your mac installing updates.
That only works if you never turn the computer off, my guess would be the average user turns it off. It's automatic or manual your choice in OS X, just select when Software Update checks if you go that route. My experience with home PCs has been limited, but enough to know I don't want one in my home (I'm forced to use one at work). I watched some relatives who use a PC at Christmas try to load MP3 music files onto a new iRiver player. That was fun, all the PC users couldn't get it to load files from Windows Media Player or whatever Windows uses. Now if that was an iPod connected to an Mac, well lets just stay they would been done and enjoying their new player in no time.

Timepass
Aug 11, 2006, 02:39 PM
That only works if you never turn the computer off, my guess would be the average user turns it off. It's automatic or manual your choice in OS X, just select when Software Update checks if you go that route. My experience with home PCs has been limited, but enough to know I don't want one in my home (I'm forced to use one at work). I watched some relatives who use a PC at Christmas try to load MP3 music files onto a new iRiver player. That was fun, all the PC users couldn't get it to load files from Windows Media Player or whatever Windows uses. Now if that was an iPod connected to an Mac, well lets just stay they would been done and enjoying their new player in no time.

I think the average user DOESNT turn off there computer. How many mac users turn off there computers (full shut down here not sleep mode because this updates are set wake up the computer from sleep/standby mode to do it.) The average PC user is the same.

That average person leave the computer on 24/7 or at least in standby/sleep mode. So really doest hlp.

As for you iRiver comment that is a compete different thing. If it was an iPod it would not of been in issue on windows. it was an iRiver issue not the OS because I pretty sure there would of been issues with the iRiver on a mac. Dont use examples that require changing multiple varibles.

Mav451
Aug 11, 2006, 02:57 PM
I watched some relatives who use a PC at Christmas try to load MP3 music files onto a new iRiver player. That was fun, all the PC users couldn't get it to load files from Windows Media Player or whatever Windows uses. Now if that was an iPod connected to an Mac, well lets just stay they would been done and enjoying their new player in no time.

I'm gonna have to agree with the above post about changing variables. First it was "most digi cams don't PnP on a PC" or now "mp3 players don't work well on PCs".

I had an ancient Kodak auto-detect and install itself. The Kodak appeared as a storage device in a few seconds and I could easily copy/paste those pictures anywhere I pleased.
I had a similar experience with iTunes/iPod. Plug it in, transfer songs, enjoy. The only complaint, if any, was that the Windows iTunes looks slightly uglier (not 1:1 port), but this is a cosmetic argument in the end.

Dane - Those flawed and outdated blanket statements truly reflect on your lack of XP experience. You did mention that you have never used XP in the home, so maybe your statements should not be surprising to us.

Dane D.
Aug 11, 2006, 03:14 PM
My point was if they had a Mac and got an iPod, the process would be much smoother.
Mav451:
Dane - Those flawed and outdated blanket statements truly reflect on your lack of XP experience. You did mention that you have never used XP in the home, so maybe your statements should not be surprising to us.
My experience on PCs has been mostly at work, but all of my friends use PCs and are constanting complaining about something. And they turn their units off every night, these are die-hard PC guys too. It is great that you have a PC that works well and does what you want. My point was and still is, for the average home computer user, Macs are still a better experince in terms of using a computer.

millypede
Aug 11, 2006, 04:17 PM
I have to use a PC, none of this Win Xp crap, just Win2k, it works well for what I use it for, I use Softimage XSI and Combustion, plus I like the gaming side of things too, with out a PC im a little stuck, see this coming from one of the people who shouldnt be posting on here really but does.

ravenvii
Aug 11, 2006, 05:17 PM
The main point of my comments were really just to stir people up and get them talking about it (and smug mac fanboys annoy the hell out of me). As i've said I'm going to get a MacBook in the near future and run both Operating systems.

And self-declared trolls like you annoy the hell out of me.

A message from Harry Potter: Beware Kids: Profanity Inside! (http://homepage.mac.com/ravenvii/Pics/harrypotterstfu.jpg)

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 15, 2006, 08:57 AM
The reason why I need windows is easy. There are many specialized programs besides games and MS office that doesnt exist in OSX versions. Autocad (industrial standard 3d drawing editor) and
Scientific workplace (wysiswyg latex editor with maple) are just two of many examples.
I would love to be MS free, but reality forces me to use XP.

hulugu
Aug 16, 2006, 12:14 AM
The reason why I need windows is easy. There are many specialized programs besides games and MS office that doesnt exist in OSX versions. Autocad (industrial standard 3d drawing editor) and
Scientific workplace (wysiswyg latex editor with maple) are just two of many examples.
I would love to be MS free, but reality forces me to use XP.

AutoCAD is a problem, but it was my understanding that AutoDesk had asked for feedback from users regarding an OSX version, so this may change.

I'm surprised about Scientific Workplace, what the hell does a wysiswyg latex editor look like? I though Latex was a simple text editor.

There are many examples of Windows-only software and that's a valid reason to use Windows, but hopefully a faultering reason to use Windows. However, could Parallels fulfill this need so you could use a Mac also?

hulugu
Aug 16, 2006, 12:21 AM
I'm gonna have to agree with the above post about changing variables. First it was "most digi cams don't PnP on a PC" or now "mp3 players don't work well on PCs".

I had an ancient Kodak auto-detect and install itself. The Kodak appeared as a storage device in a few seconds and I could easily copy/paste those pictures anywhere I pleased.
I had a similar experience with iTunes/iPod. Plug it in, transfer songs, enjoy. The only complaint, if any, was that the Windows iTunes looks slightly uglier (not 1:1 port), but this is a cosmetic argument in the end.

Dane - Those flawed and outdated blanket statements truly reflect on your lack of XP experience. You did mention that you have never used XP in the home, so maybe your statements should not be surprising to us.

I use XP everyday and yet I've run into strange and interesting problems with cameras, printers, and even one keyboard. Most of the time things do work, but sometimes they don't and that's incredibly frustrating when it always seems to work on the Mac.

crazycat
Aug 16, 2006, 07:22 AM
Only reason why i use a pc is for games and some software that cant be found on teh mac. If i can play games on my mac as if playing on windows, if i can change graphics cards and so on i wont use a pc ever again.

ScubaDuc
Aug 16, 2006, 07:38 AM
I can't manage to scan over my home network with a Brother MFC-3820 CN without using the USB wire on X.3 and the autoloading function doesn't seem to work either. The unit prints over wi-fi but won't scan...:mad:

SO I use windows when I have to scan 'couse I can actually scan to any computer on the network from the scanner... :(

risc
Aug 16, 2006, 07:52 AM
I use Windows for 1 reason at home and 1 reason only. Windows XP MCE 2005. I have my MCE box hooked up to 1 of my HDTVs and it doesn't do anything else. So at my house it is Macs for desktop computing (I have a MBP, my GF has an iMac), Windows for MCE, and Linux for everything else.

Zwhaler
Aug 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
I think that people who go shopping for a computer go for PC's because Windows has basically been established around the world as the industry standard. People who dislike Macs, have most likely never tried them or never seen what they are capable of and how they kick Window's ass. I, myself disliked Macs (years back) but I had never experienced them. Now I hate windows and occasionally ask the same question the OP asked, but I say, let it go.

Dane D.
Aug 24, 2006, 07:59 PM
Zwhaler:
Now I hate windows and occasionally ask the same question the OP asked, but I say, let it go.
It is something I ask everyday, while at work that is. At home, total bliss, a pleasure to come home to a computer that is waiting and always works. Another example of Windows mentality, I had to find our media contracts and insertion orders the other day. Our office mgr. quit so, now we are struggling 'til her replacement comes on-board next week, with her setup. Took me 20 mins to find the folder, buried 10 folders deep in Documents and Settings. What is up with the f..king folders, PC people? The whole Mydocuments, Mymusic, Myvideos, MS must think everybody is stupid. And that Search function sucks. The Help is a joke. The total experience is maddening, nothing like a Mac OS. The networking, this 'Shared Folder' idea of networking, give me a break. If I connect to an office Mac, I expect full connection to the WHOLE computer. We here at work login as the owner of the computer so everthing is available. Before anybody says anything, I work in a small Advertising firm where access to the work is more important than somebody's personal stuff. Besides, I could care less what people have in their folder. After 16 yrs of nothing but Macs, I now have to use PCs. That is why I posted this thread, because Windows is well... a cheap knock-off of a superior computing experience.

ReanimationLP
Aug 24, 2006, 08:23 PM
I use Windows XP as my main machines OS. Why? Because I cant afford a faster Mac. :(

XP is okay, but a lot of times, it gets rather ********** annoying.

iJon
Aug 24, 2006, 08:35 PM
If you actually sat down and used a PC and knew what you were doing then you wouldn't have issues with it. You all find ways of crashing them "constantly" and "running slow", i'm curious how you do this as I've never really had a problem with the XP interface or software running on it, even when loading it up with programs running concurrently. I'd expect the same from the Mac when I get one.

I guess there's no real reasoning with Mac people, if they consider themselves a "mac person" then it's just because they don't know what they are doing on a PC and are therefore affraid of them.
It's people like you that bother me and statements like that which help you loose your credibility on this site.

Why should I have to take care of my PC with Kapersky Virus software and Windows Defender and keep it constantly clean all day over my MacBook Pro which is bullet proof out of the box.

Sure any PC savvy user (probably yourself) knows all the backdoors and hoops to jump through to make a PC work wonderfullly. I know these things as well and that is why I never mind that much using Windows, I can handle it.

Now which would I want to recommend to my customers, tons of addon security software and teach them how to run that poor excuse of an operating system or I could sell them a Mac and with confidence tell them "It just works and don't worry about installing any virus or spyware software, we just don't have them."

Seems to me your the one who needs to get off your high horse and lower your PC flag. Now look in that address bar for me and realize the site your on, you can't possibly talk to us and tell us Windows is superior, that would just be silly.

jon

Mav451
Aug 24, 2006, 09:02 PM
And that Search function sucks. The Help is a joke.

Totally agree. Why MS insists on an annoying, useless dog when the classic Win2K style (as the default) would have been perfect is beyond me. I don't think it's the big things that Windows struggles at, but the little things.

And Help - as a power user, it hasn't helped me yet. I don't seem to ever hear about it helping newbies either.

ReanimationLP
Aug 24, 2006, 09:11 PM
Totally agree. Why MS insists on an annoying, useless dog when the classic Win2K style (as the default) would have been perfect is beyond me. I don't think it's the big things that Windows struggles at, but the little things.

And Help - as a power user, it hasn't helped me yet. I don't seem to ever hear about it helping newbies either.

I wouldnt mind shooting that dog. Its so annoying. Its just as bad as the paperclip in Office. >.<

Dane D.
Aug 24, 2006, 10:03 PM
Thats MS for you
ReanimationLP:
I wouldnt mind shooting that dog. Its so annoying. Its just as bad as the paperclip in Office.
its such a burden to sit in front of a PC. One it looks bad, the computer; second,the Windows OS is primitive, non-intutive, laughable if you will. And those damn popups like, you have a MS update right in the middle of doing something. Third, the whole look of MS Windows is crude, the fonts look like sh.t, the Task bar is a crock of beans, the steps to do something blows me away. Oh, the anti-virus software, AVG, that scans the whole computer,add 10 -15 mins to startup time. All I have to say is, you PC users are missing the boat when it comes to using a computer.

ghall
Aug 25, 2006, 02:51 PM
My grandmother uses a PC, and she gets so frustrated with it. I know, and I've told her, that Mac whould be the perfect computer for her. She's always worrying about viruses, and spyware, and she always loses stuff (Spotlight whould benefit her greatly).

Whenever she needs me to help fix up some photos for her, I bring along my Mac, and load the pictures into iPhoto. She asked me how I got the pictures to come out so good, and I just smiled, and said "I used my Mac, it was pretty easy". Then, I had to edit some more photos for her, but since I didn't have my laptop with me at that time, I had to use her PC. It took me well over a half hour just to figure out how to work with the photo editor she uses.

breakfastcrew
Aug 27, 2006, 05:46 PM
I read like 2 pages of this and most of the pro mac points are pretty retarded. Obviously the ipod works with the mac os because apple made both hello are you guys nuts. There are like a gizillion mp3 player that microsoft didn't make I am not surprise if there are some glitches here and there. lets see what happens when you connect a whole bunch of non apple products to your mac pssshhhh Also some of us don't like the osx because we have used windows all our life. It is hard to try something new when we are so use to one environment. I dont' know what the op meant by home users but most home users I know are pretty happy with windows. I only hear complaints by ppl who aren't computer literate aka....old ppl. I guess if someone is new to using a computer a mac would be much easier to use than windows. I have a macbook right now but I have to say I am way more productive under windows than the mac. A lot of stuff that use to take a a minute or 2 to do like finding codecs for videos, d/ling utilities....now takes half and hour or more just because the os x is a minority and there are hardly anything compatible with it. Also with the new intel switch it is even harder to find universal binary programs. The networking thing the op said eariler I find it actually in reverse I think it is retarded how you have to log in to your mac to find your files. I like the whole click it and share it thing on windows. hahah but thats just me.

ljump12
Aug 27, 2006, 05:52 PM
I am a Mac and PC user; and i jsut have to say that you guys are a smug group of individuals... And you really need to get over it. Alot of your points just plain suck. Sure i love my macbook; but window's has its place too. Just deal with it.

My 2 cents.

dsnort
Aug 27, 2006, 08:06 PM
I read like 2 pages of this and most of the pro mac points are pretty retarded. Obviously the ipod works with the mac os because apple made both hello are you guys nuts.

Wow. That sentence is just, well, retarded!


There are like a gizillion mp3 player that microsoft didn't make I am not surprise if there are some glitches here and there.

But don't most of those players run on M$ software?

lets see what happens when you connect a whole bunch of non apple products to your mac pssshhhh

I do it all the time. Camera's, camcorders, printers, etc. No probs so far. Oh wait, I did have one issue. Creative Zen only works with it's software which is windows only.

Also some of us don't like the osx because we have used windows all our life. It is hard to try something new when we are so use to one environment.

Yeah, I know. I spent two weeks after I switched thinking I had screwed up. But I stuck too it and learned. Now I'm smiling all the days.

I only hear complaints by ppl who aren't computer literate aka....old ppl.

I don't know if I qualify as old, but, since when did it became a requirement to become a computer engineer to want to use a computer? Oh, that's right, with Windows!

Both OS's have a place, and adherents of both act like fecktards at times. All I know is that since I switched I feel like I have stepped out of the dark and into the sunshine. If that makes me sound smug, well, okay. I can live with that.

hulugu
Aug 27, 2006, 10:16 PM
I read like 2 pages of this and most of the pro mac points are pretty retarded.

Well thanks for such a learned opinion on the subject.

Obviously the ipod works with the mac os because apple made both hello are you guys nuts. There are like a gizillion mp3 player that microsoft didn't make I am not surprise if there are some glitches here and there. lets see what happens when you connect a whole bunch of non apple products to your mac pssshhhh.

Remarkably, I've spent a hell of a lot of time trying to get WMP to talk with supposed PlaysForSure DAP, and this is Microsoft software refusing to work with Microsoft software. Sony doesn't seem to be able to do this right either, by the way.

Also some of us don't like the osx because we have used windows all our life. It is hard to try something new when we are so use to one environment.

This is called Stockholm Syndrom. ;) That's a problem for anyone going to one OS to another and thus can't be the only reason to stick with a given platform. This point has been gone over and over and it has been my personal experience that the Mac is still easier to transition to than from.

I dont' know what the op meant by home users but most home users I know are pretty happy with windows. I only hear complaints by ppl who aren't computer literate aka....old ppl. I guess if someone is new to using a computer a mac would be much easier to use than windows.

But, you repeat yourself. Nice that you assume since someone can't use Windows they're either old or 'computer illiterate.' It can't be that Windows is just poorly designed and training almost nonexistant. Perhaps, rather than making fun of people who have problems you could use your vast knowledge of the Windows OS to help them.


I have a macbook right now but I have to say I am way more productive under windows than the mac. A lot of stuff that use to take a a minute or 2 to do like finding codecs for videos, d/ling utilities....now takes half and hour or more just because the os x is a minority and there are hardly anything compatible with it. Also with the new intel switch it is even harder to find universal binary programs.

Windows hasn't undergone a major platform change, and I'd agree that the UB thing is annoying for new Macintel users, there's millions of computer that are still using the PPC and thus don't have this same problem. Note, this problem will go away, while Windows will continue to suck.
Secondly, you might want to try a secret search (www.google.com) engine to find OSX apps and utilities.
Third, I have the same problem with Windows. I have to download a ton of stuff just to make it useful.

The networking thing the op said eariler I find it actually in reverse I think it is retarded how you have to log in to your mac to find your files. I like the whole click it and share it thing on windows. hahah but thats just me.

Yep, security sucks, you don't want that. :D

hulugu
Aug 27, 2006, 10:17 PM
I am a Mac and PC user; and i jsut have to say that you guys are a smug group of individuals... And you really need to get over it. Alot of your points just plain suck. Sure i love my macbook; but window's has its place too. Just deal with it.

My 2 cents.

Go look up the word smug. Read the definition, then go back and read many of the posts here.

wonga1127
Aug 27, 2006, 10:54 PM
Windows=the suxxors or 10 Things I hate about Windows.

One: GUI. You know I never really had a problem with the user interface, until I tried to use it. XP advocates will always fart their blow-holes about one button mice and what not. I've never needed two buttons. Ever. On windows, you have right click, but the contextual menus don't have the options you'd expect to be there. Merge tables in Office? NO WAY. M$ decided for me, that I don't need to do that. Well screw you M$.

Two: Backward-compatability. i love backwards compatability. I really do. I like being able to play Doom on my XP machine. But it also scares me, knowing that DOS is still in the under workings. I'm using something that hasn't been changed in more than 20 years. Do what Apple did, throw backwards compatibility to the wind, and really innovate. I don't really want to run Win95 apps in XP, because if I still needed them, I wouldn't have updated.

Three: Quality of the hardware. Any schmuck can throw some crappy parts into a box and plug the wires in. Try something new.

Four: Upgrades. THEY DON"T DO ANYTHING. Day to day use, I noticed my Smell was a little slow. So I thought, Hey, I'ma gonna put more RAM in. 70 bucks later, the only

difference is that my programs are taking up MORE memory. I add more, they spread out more. The different configurations? Yeah, trillions, googols, etc. But how many of those are attractive configs. Yeah, I can put a Rage XL in my Dell, but would it do anything? No. So who cares

Five: Mediocre. I don't know what it is, but something about Windows just feels LAME. For example. Recycle Bin. I'm not recycling it, its not like the hard drive has a predetermined amount of 1's and 0's it can write before it craps out, I just want the file gone. Trash is a better name for it, because thats what it is, trash, I don't want it. Control Panel. Its not a control panel. It provides maybe half the functionality of a car dashboard with 12 knobs and levers on it. You expect to change something, but the "wizard" for it is hidden away in your C:/Windows folder. Start menu. Ready. Set? BLOAT. Awesome, I can have every conceivable application at mt fingertips, if my fingertips were 17" long. When your "start" menu takes up your whole screen, its more like stop and search than start.

Six: Don't Give it to me If It Don't Work. Scheduled tasks is great at this. I told XP to shut down my computer at 10:00. 11:00 rolls around. Still up and sluggishly jogging. Thanks Billy Gates!

Seven: Legacy support. Why does the Windows boot screen display at 640x480? Who the hell has a standard VGA monitor anymore. I'm UXGA bitch, give me my resollution. If you have a small monitor, get a new one or get a gun. (Excluding laptop owners).

Eight: Search (ing for a better search function). Hey little pooch, can you help me find that file that I lost 4 months ago? Yeah, dig the ground, keep digging. No results found. Thanks a lot you dirty mutt. Yeah, Google desktop thing, but I don't feel like waiting forever for it to index my harddrive. Spotlight pwns.

Nine: Viruses, Spyware, and Adware. THis is more of a smackdown to the scum who make these things. Get a real job and get off my computer. I don't my balls to shrivel up everytimg a pop-up ad comes up. I don't want to flinch when I open a downloaded file. Give me freedom.

Ten: Fanboys. Seriously, get you head out of your ass. Wake up and smell the coffee. YOur 10 year old arguements no longer mean anything. Once you use both on an everyday basis, then you can make an educated choice. Until then, shut your mouth.

Mav451
Aug 27, 2006, 11:21 PM
Wow...the vitriol is strong with the last one.

I agree with a lot of your sentiments:
The default config for the Start Menu is terrible. One they default to large icons (I use small). This allows me to list nearly 20+ programs vertically vs. maybe 7-10 with the larger icons. Two, they have the "commonly used programs" set to 5 by default. I use 0. Instead, I use the "Pin to Menu" command to place what I choose to be the Programs displayed under the Start menu.

Three, I totally agree that the Start Menu interface itself is rather bloated, visually. This is why I use "Compact Menu" to display only the icons w/o the text, i.e. reducing the My Documents line to a simple folder icon. This is actually a very common option found in most visual styles other than the default ones provided by Microsoft.

So while the default settings of MS are a weakness, the versatility in tweaking and changing to interface to suit your needs is also a strength. It is just too bad that the default MS one is so terrible.

thejadedmonkey
Aug 27, 2006, 11:43 PM
So um... yeah. I use windows XP professional because I choose to.

Dane D.
Aug 28, 2006, 03:23 PM
ljump12:
I am a Mac and PC user; and i jsut have to say that you guys are a smug group of individuals... And you really need to get over it. Alot of your points just plain suck. Sure i love my macbook; but window's has its place too. Just deal with it.
My 2 cents.
Spoken like a typical PC user. If mine and other posters points "just plain suck" then back up your statement with some facts or illustrate the PC way for us. As for us Mac users being "smug", fine I can live with that. By the way here is the definition for you of smug:
smug |sməg| adjective ( smugger, smuggest) having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements.
breakfastcrew:
I dont' know what the op meant by home users but most home users I know are pretty happy with windows. I only hear complaints by ppl who aren't computer literate aka....old ppl. I guess if someone is new to using a computer a mac would be much easier to use than windows.
Please, I know from watching my kids and their friends (who are PC users), those friends are always amazed that our Macs just work. Those friends of my kids also always seem to be at my house on my Macs, uhmm, I wonder why. The second point of your statement is right on. Lets review; open carton - pull computer out plug in power cord, keyboard, mouse and monitor if desktop model. Press power button, fill out information fields for user and welcome to the world of Apple. Maybe 10 minutes tops, my eMac took about that. One time, I had a PC user watch me setup a new Mac, lets just say they were in awe.
breakfastcrew:
The networking thing the op said eariler I find it actually in reverse I think it is retarded how you have to log in to your mac to find your files. I like the whole click it and share it thing on windows. hahah but thats just me.
Whats "retarded" is having that Shared Folder in the first place. Let me explain, I don't want a file structure dictacted to me on where I have to keep my stuff. If I need to access a client's folder then why should I have to keep it in the Shared Folder? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a folder structure that is logical on the HD? The whole PC system is just plain confusing (when I look at the MyComputer window), the drives are still named by letters, wheres the HD icon that sits on my desktop with a name that I gave it?

Mav451
Aug 28, 2006, 03:35 PM
The whole PC system is just plain confusing (when I look at the MyComputer window), the drives are still named by letters, wheres the HD icon that sits on my desktop with a name that I gave it?

Yet another example of crappy defaults given by MS. One, clicking My Computer, in itself, is the equivalent of pre-1990's era of "click to enter my page". It's a waste of TIME! In this sense, MS should have made My Computer a menu (not as "a link" by default). This way, instead of having to click through two windows, you simply click it, and a vertical list of your drives will come out. At least this is what I do :) It's a lot more efficient and quicker way to access your drives. However...having an icon sitting on the desktop? That's an Apple convention I'm afraid ;)

I'm more used to pressing to "Windows" key on the keyboard and then clicking the drive I want--this let's me get to drives without having to go back to the desktop everytime. By the way...very few users I know use the Windows key when they use a PC, and it's a damn shame, cuz it makes accessing anything fast as hell.

Show Desktop? Windows Key + D.
Run Program? Windows Key + R.
*and what most people don't know is that you can type in web addy's in the run menu. So if you defaulted Firefox as your browser? Typing in an addy will automatically open a new tab. Nice.

waynesun
Aug 28, 2006, 04:32 PM
I think you're spoiled with super-fast transfers. :)
I don't mind the transfer times, although they piss me off often. Usually, i go do something else while i'm xferring (not computer-related).

Reaver
Aug 28, 2006, 04:33 PM
I use both too I built a windows PC from scratch and use that for torrents and Gaming when I have time. and I use mac at work I cant wait till I get my laptop so I can use mac all the time.

breakfastcrew
Aug 29, 2006, 04:07 AM
With the exception of the "ipod killer" device they are going to release microsoft never released a mp3/audio portable player. 3 weeks in and I still like windows better. OSX looks nice and I like it at times. I am not trying to argue that windows is better but like the OP said it is hard to get use to the other os once you used the other one for so long. Coming from the windows world I miss the alt tab function and yes I know about cmd tab but it doesn't scroll thru everything and it doesn't work with full screen games. I also don't like the dock it gets in the way most of the time I prefer the start menu. I prefer windows over os x for now just because I am more familar with the os x....it might change in the future. I also like to tell the OP that just because you find some of the windows methods strange it doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same I for one like the networking file structure over the mac's. I also like the my computer thing it keeps my desktop nice and clean. I like the little letters next to the drive just because I have seen them there all my life. I still don't see how everyone you know complains about windows. My pc machine freezes like twice a month but then again I only have 256 mb of ram in it. I don't use anti virus either do my friends we haven't gotten a single virus since like blasta. The people I do see complaining about are like little kids and old people. They install everything and have icons all over the place.

ljump12
Aug 29, 2006, 07:26 PM
[QUOTE=Dane D.]Spoken like a typical PC user. If mine and other posters points "just plain suck" then back up your statement with some facts or illustrate the PC way for us. As for us Mac users being "smug", fine I can live with that. By the way here is the definition for you of smug:
smug |sməg| adjective ( smugger, smuggest) having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements.

I already did... go look on the first/second page; the price can't be matched.
And i really don't see how i used smug wrong; you guys are full of excesive pride in your computers... I don't see how it was wrongly used...

Dane D.
Aug 29, 2006, 09:31 PM
Another example of why I use Macs. I just found at work an ORB external USB 2.2 GB HD. Vintage 1998 or 1999, never was opened, so I asked if I could have it and they said yes. I hooked it up and booted my Mac into OS X, it showed up on the desktop ready for use. I did not install any drivers for it, I just re-formatted (was Fat32) and gave it a name. Now have an extra 2 GBs of storage, slow but for text files and small graphics files it is fine. If I were using a PC would this be this simple, no. I would of had to load the drivers first, then go to Add new hardware and do the wizard thing and reboot. Of course using OS 9 I had to load the drivers for it to work, but that was nothing but a simple install and re-boot. ljump12, as for price I will glady pay more a Mac, because I know it will work out of the box for along time. To me the premium price is worth it, my time is too valuable to waste on getting things to work.

breakfastcrew
Aug 29, 2006, 09:43 PM
Another example of why I use Macs. I just found at work an ORB external USB 2.2 GB HD. Vintage 1998 or 1999, never was opened, so I asked if I could have it and they said yes. I hooked it up and booted my Mac into OS X, it showed up on the desktop ready for use. I did not install any drivers for it, I just re-formatted (was Fat32) and gave it a name. Now have an extra 2 GBs of storage, slow but for text files and small graphics files it is fine. If I were using a PC would this be this simple, no. I would of had to load the drivers first, then go to Add new hardware and do the wizard thing and reboot. Of course using OS 9 I had to load the drivers for it to work, but that was nothing but a simple install and re-boot. ljump12, as for price I will glady pay more a Mac, because I know it will work out of the box for along time. To me the premium price is worth it, my time is too valuable to waste on getting things to work.
have you tried this on a windows xp machine LOL I doubt it. I will bet you anything if I plug that harddrive into my dell it will recognize it immediately. Your experience with windows is limited I wouldn't assume anything if you haven't actually tested it.

and to wonga I happen to use the right click button a lot so shut your ****in pie crap hole, just because you don't use it it doesn't mean it is a retarded feature. And it is a recycle bin because you can still recover stuff from it after you moved it there. If you wanted a trash can you can set it so that it empties the trash automatically lazy ass.

Mav451
Aug 29, 2006, 09:52 PM
have you tried this on a windows xp machine LOL I doubt it. I will bet you anything if I plug that harddrive into my dell it will recognize it immediately. Your experience with windows is limited I wouldn't assume anything if you haven't actually tested it.

I'm fairly sure he hasn't. I think his disgust towards Windows itself probably prevents this from ever happening anyway. Hopefully he will realize that further assumptions/accusations on Windows "experiences" only further undermine his credibility in speaking for actual XP experiences.

blindeyecyou
Aug 29, 2006, 10:23 PM
I use windows because i like it and im familiar with it.
However ill be using less windows once i get my macbook!!
Sometimes though i think of not buying a mac just beacuse of the dislike i have for mac users.:D

breakfastcrew
Aug 29, 2006, 10:41 PM
I am not even a windows fan boy. I can't believe how much ignorance there are in this thread. Some of you mac fanatics seriously need to go test out windows yourself don't ****in give us the apple salesperson brainwashing bull ****.

zephead
Aug 29, 2006, 11:56 PM
I will bet you anything if I plug that harddrive into my dell it will recognize it immediately.
As a Windows user myself, I can say he is right. After I reformatted my HD (again) and plugged in my flash drive, sure enough my Dell recognized it. It pops up that little balloon saying "New Hardware found" and then it starts installing. After it pops up a few more of those saying what classification the hardware is in, Windows then says "Your new hardware is installed and ready to use." Easy enough, right?

I went to an Apple Store not too long ago (Rancho Cucamonga, CA) and I was using a MacBook, and I wanted to save a screenshot. So I plugged in my flash drive, and it appeared on the desktop, near instantly as if it were already installed :eek:. So I dragged the screenshot right onto the flash drive, and then took my flash drive out and put it back in my wallet.

FadeToBlack
Aug 30, 2006, 12:03 AM
As a Windows user myself, I can say he is right. After I reformatted my HD (again) and plugged in my flash drive, sure enough my Dell recognized it. It pops up that little balloon saying "New Hardware found" and then it starts installing. After it pops up a few more of those saying what classification the hardware is in, Windows then says "Your new hardware is installed and ready to use." Easy enough, right?

I went to an Apple Store not too long ago (Rancho Cucamonga, CA) and I was using a MacBook, and I wanted to save a screenshot. So I plugged in my flash drive, and it appeared on the desktop, near instantly as if it were already installed :eek:. So I dragged the screenshot right onto the flash drive, and then took my flash drive out and put it back in my wallet.

Gotta love that! I can remember the same thing happening to me when I bought my first flash drive. I had used it with my eMac and seen how easy it was, then took it to my friend's house and plugged it in his Windows PC and it did what you described and after clicking a bunch of popups, I finally had access to the drive. Much, much easier on the Mac and a whole lot more elegant.

pink-pony115
Aug 30, 2006, 12:48 AM
yes fine you can put my post under scrutiny... I really dont give a...well you know what I mean.

I've been using windows for my entire life until two years ago. In 2004 I thought compters were just technology and something I had to live with. Since I made the "big" switch I get excited about innovation.

Why use windows?
Because using windows gives Bill Gates money. He actually does something good with his money...what a shock :eek: !

Cheese
Aug 30, 2006, 02:25 AM
I use a PeeCee at work (Win XP). NOT by choice. I choose OSX as my favorite OS. That doesn't mean that I suck any more than someone else's choice of Windoze makes them suck. I hate Windows, and am anti-Microsoft. I also know folks who swear that they would give up their first-born before ever using another Apple product. They have their reasons and I have mine. Will I ever change my mind? Perhaps, but, I have difficulty respecting the opinion of someone who chooses to use an OS because it is familiar, traditional, or "THE STANDARD", and literally refuses to even look at the alternatives. It's kind of similar to saying that tap water is the only water worth drinking, because it is what everyone else seems to be drinking.

breakfastcrew
Aug 30, 2006, 03:06 AM
As a Windows user myself, I can say he is right. After I reformatted my HD (again) and plugged in my flash drive, sure enough my Dell recognized it. It pops up that little balloon saying "New Hardware found" and then it starts installing. After it pops up a few more of those saying what classification the hardware is in, Windows then says "Your new hardware is installed and ready to use." Easy enough, right?

I went to an Apple Store not too long ago (Rancho Cucamonga, CA) and I was using a MacBook, and I wanted to save a screenshot. So I plugged in my flash drive, and it appeared on the desktop, near instantly as if it were already installed :eek:. So I dragged the screenshot right onto the flash drive, and then took my flash drive out and put it back in my wallet.

You know what is a pain. I pressed my macbook's power button once and nothing happened I had to press it a second time for it to turn on. Damn macs so unreliable what a piece of crap I can't believe I have to press it a 2nd time it should of turned on the first time OMG OMG OMG OMG complain complain complain whine whine whine.

Cheese nobody in here said anything about not trying out a mac. We are not all ignorant like dane. Most of us window users all have macs thats why we are at a mac forum. It is a problem when some particular mac fanatic sterotype windows without even trying it for themselves.

hulugu
Aug 30, 2006, 03:29 AM
...I already did... go look on the first/second page; the price can't be matched.
And i really don't see how i used smug wrong; you guys are full of excessive pride in your computers... I don't see how it was wrongly used...

Why don't you just add in pretentious and any other pejorative you can think of. It will do the same good, which is devolve your opinion into a meaningless argument.

There's a difference between thinking Macs are better than PCs because of experience and being smug about having a Mac. It's a subtle difference, I know, but a meaningful one you've missed by being merely prejudicial.

I don't know why threads like this go on and on, some people don't like Windows. It's not a requirement to like everything, it's okay to think that Pepsi is too sugary, and it should be possible to think that anchovies ruin a pizza without being insulted.

If you like Windows, rock on, have fun and I hope you all the best, but don't expect me to bow to your supposed savvy or diffidence.

breakfastcrew
Aug 30, 2006, 02:05 PM
Why don't you just add in pretentious and any other pejorative you can think of. It will do the same good, which is devolve your opinion into a meaningless argument.

There's a difference between thinking Macs are better than PCs because of experience and being smug about having a Mac. It's a subtle difference, I know, but a meaningful one you've missed by being merely prejudicial.

I don't know why threads like this go on and on, some people don't like Windows. It's not a requirement to like everything, it's okay to think that Pepsi is too sugary, and it should be possible to think that anchovies ruin a pizza without being insulted.

If you like Windows, rock on, have fun and I hope you all the best, but don't expect me to bow to your supposed savvy or diffidence.


It is ok to prefer pepsi over coke if you have tried both but if you have never tried coke before how do you know pepsi is better.

solvs
Aug 30, 2006, 11:41 PM
and to wonga I happen to use the right click button a lot so shut your ****in pie crap hole, just because you don't use it it doesn't mean it is a retarded feature. And it is a recycle bin because you can still recover stuff from it after you moved it there. If you wanted a trash can you can set it so that it empties the trash automatically lazy ass.
Are you trying to get yourself banned? This not the way to present your opinion.

hulugu
Aug 31, 2006, 12:27 AM
It is ok to prefer pepsi over coke if you have tried both but if you have never tried coke before how do you know pepsi is better.

I've used Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, and XP SP2. I've also used Mac OS 6.0 - 10.4. I've used used Solaris and SuSE Linux. So, my opinion is based on trying not only Coke and Pepsi, but also Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew.

dsnort
Aug 31, 2006, 07:47 AM
I've used Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, and XP SP2. I've also used Mac OS 6.0 - 10.4. I've used used Solaris and SuSE Linux. So, my opinion is based on trying not only Coke and Pepsi, but also Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew.

Just an observation, but why do the Windows aficionados always seem to assume that users who prefer Mac have no experience with Windows ?

zephead
Aug 31, 2006, 08:16 PM
It is ok to prefer pepsi over coke if you have tried both but if you have never tried coke before how do you know pepsi is better.
Likewise, if you have never tried Pepsi before, how would you know Coke is better?

hulugu
Aug 31, 2006, 10:58 PM
Just an observation, but why do the Windows aficionados always seem to assume that users who prefer Mac have no experience with Windows ?

Because it supports their view that we don't know any better or that we're part of some cult (hence the uses of the word faithful, zealot, RDF). Otherwise, they have to worry that they may have missed something.

solvs
Aug 31, 2006, 11:31 PM
Just an observation, but why do the Windows aficionados always seem to assume that users who prefer Mac have no experience with Windows ?
Because many of them haven't used a Mac since they were still beige. To be fair, there are some who still base their Windows complaints on pre-XP issues. But to be fairer, some of those issues still exist, so there you go.

Edit: And apparently the answer to my question was yes.

eyemacg5
Sep 14, 2006, 02:30 PM
People use windows becuase other people do.
People use windows because they're scared of change.
People use windows becuase they're everywhere.
People use windows because bill gates is richer than steve jobs.
People use windows because computer shops sell lots of pc;s and few macs.
People use windows because there are lots to choose from.
People use windows because more companys make pc;s not like macs, apple hardware apple software.



2nd post :)

clevin
Sep 14, 2006, 03:02 PM
game
game
game
and seriously, why do you think apple develop bootcamp?

Jaja
Sep 14, 2006, 03:07 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if I am repeating someone... But there are software that just doesn't work on mac, such as LabVIEW (www.ni.com). Their cards have drivers for windows and LabVIEW is written for windows... So for LabVIEW users, windows it is.

Gurutech
Sep 14, 2006, 05:19 PM
This thread sounds so funny.
This is like watching Dem vs Rep with following rule:
NO DOMESTIC ISSUE WILL BE DISCUSSED
NO MIDDLE EAST ISSUE WILL BE DISCUSSED.

I use or must use Windows for game and productivity suits/programs for my major(electrical engineering).

That's why.. and if you want to take out those two, then I don't know how most, and I mean MOST, people will gonna have useful discussion.

:confused: :confused: :o :o :cool: :cool:

EricTheRed71
Sep 16, 2006, 05:46 AM
Most of you lot sound like you are about 12 years old.

Maybe you are?

Mac or Windows is really a stupid question. The real question is what you do with the computer.

Both the Mac or PC can be looked upon like a workmans toolbox. It's what he has inside that enables him to do his job. The fact that one box has shiny stickers on it and goes "woosh" when he opens it really isn't relevant.

It's all about different tools for different jobs. I've used Macs since 1988. In fact I have an SE/30 running System 6 & Illustrator '88 sitting on the shelf behind me. I've also used & owned PCs since the mid 90s. Neither is better than the other one in the same respect than a hammer is not better then a screwdriver.

I use Photoshop & Illustrator on the Mac because I find that they run better on the Mac. On the other hand I run After Effects on the PC because.... you get it. If any of them were available & ran better on Linux I would run them on Linux. The amount of time I actually spend "working" in the operating system, be it OSX or XP is minimal and as such to me is irrelevant.

I can never get my head around this "fan-boy" mentality. Very strange....

Dane D.
Sep 18, 2006, 10:05 PM
breakfastcrew
I'm fairly sure he hasn't. I think his disgust towards Windows itself probably prevents this from ever happening anyway. Hopefully he will realize that further assumptions/accusations on Windows "experiences" only further undermine his credibility in speaking for actual XP experiences.

As a matter of fact, I did try, Oh the wizard popped up, then the installer. Oh boy, the wizard, showed it face again. What a f..ked up sytstem, I have been on a Windows machine for 2 weeks,how do you guys stand it? What a piece of sh.t, operating system. Slows down when more than one app open, that closing of apps when hitting the 'X' in the window, boy that is innovation. The file system is weak, the hours trying to figure out XP and using the 'find" function. Who thinks like this? I guess is you have used Windows and nothing else then it works. What a piece of crap. Oh I am not 12 yrs old thank you, EricTheRed71.

belvdr
Sep 19, 2006, 01:47 PM
The fact that one box has shiny stickers on it and goes "woosh" when he opens it really isn't relevant.

Amen. This statement has made my day.

EricTheRed71
Sep 19, 2006, 03:53 PM
As a matter of fact, I did try, Oh the wizard popped up, then the installer. Oh boy, the wizard, showed it face again. What a f..ked up sytstem, I have been on a Windows machine for 2 weeks,how do you guys stand it? What a piece of sh.t, operating system. Slows down when more than one app open, that closing of apps when hitting the 'X' in the window, boy that is innovation. The file system is weak, the hours trying to figure out XP and using the 'find" function. Who thinks like this? I guess is you have used Windows and nothing else then it works. What a piece of crap. Oh I am not 12 yrs old thank you, EricTheRed71.

[shakes head....]

If the wizard "popped up" then it means that a piece of hardware wasn't installed correctly. Surely you can't blame Windows for wanting to correct an error?

Maybe if you calmed down & ranted a little less you would not run into so many problems in Windows.
For what it is worth, I think OSX is great.... but there are things in Windows that would improve it, & things that have been in Windows for years that are only just creeping into OSX...... boy that is innovation.

Indeed.

Dane D.
Sep 19, 2006, 07:45 PM
EricTheRed71:
Maybe if you calmed down & ranted a little less you would not run into so many problems in Windows.
For what it is worth, I think OSX is great.... but there are things in Windows that would improve it, & things that have been in Windows for years that are only just creeping into OSX......
You're right I need to calm down, but you sit in front of a PC and try and do work on it. After 16 years of nothing but Macs, I think I can rant. If I could, I would use my Macs to do the work, but the client insists on PC only, and PageMaker to boot (program is worthless). I have PageMaker for Mac but when they issued their orders for no more Mac produced work that just took me over the edge.
I started this thread knowing I would incur the wrath of Windows users and some Mac users. I still maintain my original assumption that for the average home user, Macs are better. As for the original question "Now without including games and MS Office, tell me why would any sane individual use Windows." I still don't understand why people would use a PC. I realize cost is a factor in many cases, but the cost is only piece of the equation. Games, I wanted to throw that out because that is all I see when PC fans respond to threads. MS Office was not allowed because I believe most people don't buy the full suite. And it takes MS apps out of the process of answering (not a fan of MS or B. Gates, history's greatest snake oil salesman).
I have another example of why I wouldn't own a PC. My brother-in-law (non-computer person) picked-up a used PC from a local college professor. I was given the task of getting it to work. Well I did get it to work (re-formatted and clean install) for about a month. Then one day a week ago I was over there and went to shut down the computer, it tells me I have 2 people logged-on it, wtf, then I remembered, I didn't install the anti-whatever software, doh. Now on bootup, it does nothing but show the old DOS flashing cursor. I told him find somebody that knows PCs and maybe they can waste their time on it. Of course, I said this in a nice manner, and dropped a hint to look for a used Mac. Even his own son told him he should of got a Mac, I loved it.

zephead
Sep 19, 2006, 08:14 PM
then I remembered, I didn't install the anti-whatever software, doh.
LOL. Sorry, that just strikes me as funny. Windows without anti-whatever software? :eek:

Mav451
Sep 19, 2006, 09:48 PM
After 16 years of nothing but Macs, I think I can rant.

Dude you have no reason to use Windows. Your experience with Macs is nearly 3x longer than my experience with Windows, much less computers in general. Of course your habits, conventions would make this difficult. That said, I got it much easier, coming from Windows to OSX, hehe :)

EricTheRed71
Sep 20, 2006, 03:34 AM
You're right I need to calm down, but you sit in front of a PC and try and do work on it. After 16 years of nothing but Macs, I think I can rant. If I could, I would use my Macs to do the work, but the client insists on PC only, and PageMaker to boot (program is worthless). I have PageMaker for Mac but when they issued their orders for no more Mac produced work that just took me over the edge.


Dane,
I sit in front of a PC every single day & work on it. In fact I have 11 PCs here that have just finished an overnight 3dsmax render of thousands of frames. I haven't had to re-install XP on any of them in the last year. They don't nag me for updates - just switch the option off. No viruses, spyware etc - although that is probably because I have a hardware firewall. They just work with zero maintainence.
Sure if you have used nothing but Macs for 16 years then you will find it tough at first but it isn't because "Windows Sux", it's because it's unknown territory for you.
I've been using a Mac for 18 years (started with System 6) & have spent a lot of time & money on them. About 10 years ago I was forced into a situation where I had to use software that was only available on PC & ever since then have been using both. 11 PCs running XP, 1 G5.... I think you can guess where I spend most of my time working?

But like I said, chill out, take a deep breath, just accept that using a PC is a new experience for you & try not to get wound up by every little thing that's different to OSX.

darkcurse
Sep 20, 2006, 03:51 AM
...tell me why would any sane individual use Windows...

To remind myself how much I love OSX :D

computadorian
Sep 28, 2006, 03:41 AM
I stumbled on this thread looking for some info on OSX 86. Trying to get Mac to boot on a PC. I personally thing Mac OS is a wonderful OS, but the ignorant things I see Mac people post sometimes makes me want to reformat and go back to windows on that machine and forget about Macs. If you know how to use Windows you have no problems with it. If you know how to use Macs you have no problems with them. People who don't know enough about one of them... have problems. That's the basic problem here. For the one guy complaining about Dell.. you should never take a system straight from one of those "PC" companies and use it and compare it to a mac. If you want a comparison install 40 programs on a mac, start them at once and edit your startup so they do the same thing at startup, and now you have an idea what Dell does to the PC's they sell. First thing you do on one of those PC's is a fresh install of windows and then it's magically more stable and MUCH quicker. Also, if you build a PC yourself you get much higher quality components with much better performance. I just built a Core 2 Duo PC for a total $750 that will blow any Dell or "brand" machine out of the water. Anyone who knows about PC's knows those companies use stripped down, weaker, lower-quality parts, and acheive "stability" by disabling features. You can't compare systems like that. You need to compare to a PC running quality hardware (which can be had much cheaper if you build yourself than buying a Mac). In terms of OS's they are freaking the same. They do the same thing and they have slightly different interfaces. Both are reasonably stable now if you have any idea what you're doing and both can run efficiently or very bogged down. Some people like one interface more and some like the other more - find one more intuitive. That's wonderful, but that doesn't make one better or worse than the other. And fyi, I've met a lot of "common joe" users of both who have trouble with them cuz they don't know what they're doing. If you know a decent amount about computers, you should know enough to get either OS working well with ease. If you don't, don't blame the OS. And if you like one more than the other, that's called preference.

weg
Sep 28, 2006, 03:58 AM
An example, I had to copy four folders into the Shared Folder so I could access them. They totaled just over 5GBs, it took 23 mins to copy them, the drive is 50% open, with about 20 GBs left.

I'm not an expert on Windows (using OS X and Linux, mainly), but as far as I remember you can allow other users to access your user's data.
Your ranting sounds very much like "****ing Toyota, I had to push that car all way up that hill, in my Mercedes I can also drive uphill" - well, you can do that in a Toyota, too, but if you're too stupid to use the ignition key, it's your fault.

FadeToBlack
Sep 28, 2006, 04:42 AM
I stumbled on this thread looking for some info on OSX 86. Trying to get Mac to boot on a PC. I personally thing Mac OS is a wonderful OS, but the ignorant things I see Mac people post sometimes makes me want to reformat and go back to windows on that machine and forget about Macs. If you know how to use Windows you have no problems with it. If you know how to use Macs you have no problems with them. People who don't know enough about one of them... have problems. That's the basic problem here. For the one guy complaining about Dell.. you should never take a system straight from one of those "PC" companies and use it and compare it to a mac. If you want a comparison install 40 programs on a mac, start them at once and edit your startup so they do the same thing at startup, and now you have an idea what Dell does to the PC's they sell. First thing you do on one of those PC's is a fresh install of windows and then it's magically more stable and MUCH quicker. Also, if you build a PC yourself you get much higher quality components with much better performance. I just built a Core 2 Duo PC for a total $750 that will blow any Dell or "brand" machine out of the water. Anyone who knows about PC's knows those companies use stripped down, weaker, lower-quality parts, and acheive "stability" by disabling features. You can't compare systems like that. You need to compare to a PC running quality hardware (which can be had much cheaper if you build yourself than buying a Mac). In terms of OS's they are freaking the same. They do the same thing and they have slightly different interfaces. Both are reasonably stable now if you have any idea what you're doing and both can run efficiently or very bogged down. Some people like one interface more and some like the other more - find one more intuitive. That's wonderful, but that doesn't make one better or worse than the other. And fyi, I've met a lot of "common joe" users of both who have trouble with them cuz they don't know what they're doing. If you know a decent amount about computers, you should know enough to get either OS working well with ease. If you don't, don't blame the OS. And if you like one more than the other, that's called preference.

I'm not sure if you're talking about me or not, but I was complaining about the Dell that I had, so I figure you might be.

I definitely see what you're saying about Dell not using quality parts and bogging down their systems with a bunch of bloatware.

As a matter of fact, the guy I sold the Dell to ended up having nothing but problems out of it and traded it for a home-built PC and as far as I know, he's happy with it.

As far as OS X Vs. Windows, I just don't like the way Windows works. I just prefer OS X. Yes, Windows XP is pretty stable from my experience. I never had any problems with crashing or anything on my Dell. It was just way too slow and the Windows interface bugs me.

I just prefer Macs. I like the way they work. I like how most of the freeware/shareware you find is excellent. I like the dock. I like being able to install and uninstall by drag and drop. I like it when I put my flash drive in, it comes up on the desktop and doesn't pop up those little alerts and bug me. I like Dashboard. I like Spotlight. I like having one menu bar and not having to dig for the stuff in the actual app window. I like consistent keyboard shortcuts throughout just about every Mac app. I like Activity Monitor. I like being able to leave applications open and just hide them, rather than having Windows' crowded task bar. I could go on and on, but I think you see my point.

Bottom line is: if you prefer Windows, use it. If you prefer OS X, use it. I just can't stand Windows and prefer OS X. It's all good either way.

hulugu
Sep 28, 2006, 02:23 PM
...If you know how to use Windows you have no problems with it. If you know how to use Macs you have no problems with them. People who don't know enough about one of them... have problems.

This is oft repeated, but untrue; I've Windows for years and I've edited the registry, installed a new RAID array, etc. and yet, I still think Windows is a dog.

In terms of OS's they are freaking the same. They do the same thing and they have slightly different interfaces. Both are reasonably stable now if you have any idea what you're doing and both can run efficiently or very bogged down. Some people like one interface more and some like the other more - find one more intuitive. That's wonderful, but that doesn't make one better or worse than the other. And fyi, I've met a lot of "common joe" users of both who have trouble with them cuz they don't know what they're doing. If you know a decent amount about computers, you should know enough to get either OS working well with ease. If you don't, don't blame the OS. And if you like one more than the other, that's called preference.

First, I think anyone who think Windows is the same as OSX has problems differentiating between a hammer and a rock, but I digress. ;) This whole thread is primarily about preference which remains important no matter how often you try to wave it away.

ChrisBrightwell
Sep 28, 2006, 02:53 PM
An example, I had to copy four folders into the Shared Folder so I could access them. They totaled just over 5GBs, it took 23 mins to copy them, the drive is 50% open, with about 20 GBs left. This is way too long. Try copying 5GB from one place to another on a hard drive using any OS and it's going to take a while.

And the whole Shared Folder concept, what a crock. I work in a small business, when we want something from another Mac, we connect as the owner of the Mac. This way I can see and use everything, not just some Shared Folder.Sounds like you don't "know" Windows, IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_shares

Oh and copying to external ZIP drive on a PC, USB connection is dog slow. USB or USB2? Of course USB is slow, but that's not Windows' fault.

I could go on and on about Windows methods, but you get my point. Now without including games and MS Office, tell me why would any sane individual use Windows.There are a zillion reasons, but I get the impression that you're not terribly interested in an answer but are more interested in simple ranting.

Dane D.
Sep 28, 2006, 08:38 PM
ChrisBrightwell
Try copying 5GB from one place to another on a hard drive using any OS and it's going to take a while.
Doesn't take that long on a Mac.
Sounds like you don't "know" Windows, IMO.
You're right I don't, just started using a PC this year for one client. Never wanted to learn Windows or use Windows, but was forced to.
USB or USB2? Of course USB is slow, but that's not Windows' fault.
Just discoverd that the ZIP drive is a 250MB drive and am using 100MB ZIP discs, not a good mix. The USB is v2, even transfering files and folders over the network is slow IMO. From one PC to another PC.
There are a zillion reasons, but I get the impression that you're not terribly interested in an answer but are more interested in simple ranting.
That is my point of starting this thread, why use Windows when I can do anything on my Macs without the hassle. I have another example of PC madness. I setup a former employees PC that was passworded on login. O.K. how do you get rid of the password and change the former user. I Googled my question and found the answer. To paraphase: Insert WindowsXP install CD, boot off CD (F12), run repair and wait for Windows to re-install. Then at a specific point during that process hit Shift-F10, takes you into where you can change the user settings. Re-boot, log-in with new user name no password. That is BS, on a Mac maybe takes 5 mins. to do same thing in whole lot less steps.

ReanimationLP
Sep 28, 2006, 09:44 PM
Windows XP is odd.

The word start disappeared out of my start button when I rebooted.

o.O

FadeToBlack
Sep 28, 2006, 11:41 PM
Windows XP is odd.

The word start disappeared out of my start button when I rebooted.

o.O

Yep, that's weird. Back when I was ready to sell my Dell, I re-installed Windows and the this happened after using it a little while:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1516/weirdwindowsgv9.jpg

I think it fixed itself when I rebooted.