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California
Aug 16, 2006, 03:01 AM
I never write things like this -- but people do realize that Apple is about to slaughter Dell and any other competitor around, right?

Steve will deliver an iPhone. And then, anyone who wants to buy a Dell or HP and wait around for Vista when they can have both Leopard and Vista on one machine is -- well -- stupid.

Steve, you outlasted them all. Pixar, the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, OSX -- thanks for making our lives better.

And from me personally, thanks for the Powerbooks and iBooks and the Shuffle (though my lanyard is dirty. Can I get a new one for free? And I am too scared to open my new video iPod. Help.)

Sorry I never gush like this but was talking to my friend about Steve tonight. Unreal contribution to society, I mean it.

What is Disney gonna do with you, Jobs? Or what are you going to do for Disney? The studios need to rethink their development slate "charms on their charm bracelet", elite-executive-who's never-touched-a-mole-richardson workaday caste problem. It's something you can remake/remodel, Steve; Hollywood needs ya.

(Though as a woman, you need a better jeans stylist, some of those black t's are really ugly and you might rethink what's left of your hair.)

thewhitehart
Aug 16, 2006, 05:16 AM
I hope Apple doesn't try to take over the industry. I'd be a liar if I weren't smug about belonging to this elite club of enlightened computer users. If you stare into the void long enough, the void becomes you.

BlizzardBomb
Aug 16, 2006, 05:51 AM
Sure a little bit more market share is nice, but if we get too much, well we're just asking for viruses. :(

Lollypop
Aug 16, 2006, 06:49 AM
I dont know about world conquest, but they are in a better position than ever to grow their market, they just need to be careful or they will be rigth back where they were in the mid 90s.

PlaceofDis
Aug 16, 2006, 06:51 AM
but really they aren't.
they are ready for some good market growth if things go well for them though.

crazycat
Aug 16, 2006, 07:16 AM
If apple takes over the world, i really hope they still make good prodcuts i woudl hate to buy an apple product and what i do when i buy somethign like a dell.

weev
Aug 16, 2006, 08:28 AM
Steve, you outlasted them all. Pixar, the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, OSX -- thanks for making our lives better.

In the short story which is computing it looked for some years that the bad and soulless guys would take over, but Steve Jobs has - with his team and staff - planted a creative and aesthetic seed in the hearts and minds of the multitides.

Apple has made it more fun to compute.

AlBDamned
Aug 16, 2006, 08:31 AM
Apple are definitely in a great place to take a lot more market share. And with Dell taking an absolute hammering at the moment (when your products are pictured on the front page of newspapers blowing up at conferences it's not good publicity), I can understand people saying this.

Product wise we have to see but the omens are good. But let's also hope the stock option fiasco doesn't derail the company in a business sense.

Roy Hobbs
Aug 16, 2006, 08:44 AM
Slaughter Dell??? What are you talking about, Apple has gained a little bit of market share but they are no where close to Dell. The business world alone will keep Dell far ahead of Apple.

I dont like Dells as much as the next guy posting on here, but your statements are ridiculous.

Palad1
Aug 16, 2006, 08:58 AM
/me Opens up a can of Kool-Aid and passes it around.

emotion
Aug 16, 2006, 09:05 AM
Sure a little bit more market share is nice, but if we get too much, well we're just asking for viruses. :(


This logic makes no sense. MacOSX is a massive target for hackers especially as osx users are percieved as being so smug about being secure.

Seriously, are there any viruses for Linux (another huge UNIX-based target)?

but really they aren't.
they are ready for some good market growth if things go well for them though.

Exactly, don't underestimate the power of MS and how much power having Office (and Access etc) already installed in most large companies gives them.

Also Apple need to address hardware quality control issues right now.

bluetorch18
Aug 16, 2006, 09:25 AM
Sure a little bit more market share is nice, but if we get too much, well we're just asking for viruses. :(

Everytime I hear the word virus, I picture a 120 pound nerd sitting in his mom's basement coding for hours with a little smile on his face. Its more or less his way of getting back at the world for being a social outcast, and not having any friends. I think if people get caught writing a virus they should be shot(or at least goto jail for life)....just my opinion. :)

emotion
Aug 16, 2006, 09:26 AM
Everytime I hear the word virus, I picture a 120 pound nerd sitting in his mom's basement coding for hours with a little smile on his face. Its more or less his way of getting back at the world for being a social outcast, and not having any friends. I think if people get caught writing a virus they should be shot(or at least goto jail for life)....just my opinion. :)


Nah they should be given a programming job and do something useful. Direct that energy in a useful direction.

inlimbo
Aug 16, 2006, 09:34 AM
Apple really seem to be stepping up their advertising/marketing. It is much more aggressive. A few years ago at uni it seemed I was the only person on campus (and its a big uni!) with an iPod (3rd gen). People didn't really know what an iPod was. Then Christmas came. I got on the train in January and every bloody kid had a 4th gen iPod (they had just come out). I got off and walked through the city and all I saw was people with iPods. It was really odd. Like I was teleported to another land or transported in time.

Now there is advertising for Apple stuff everywhere. Every tom, dick and harry (I even see oldies on the train with Shuffles) has an iPod (even though most use 'em on PCs and probably don't appreciate why the iPod is so good. Its more of a fashion fad thing. Australia has a real fad culture. If something is 'in' everyone wants a piece of it).

Martin Place station is covered in advertising for iTunes and even the supermarkets sell iTunes cards.

And last night I saw for the first time ever a non-iPod Apple ad. It was the one with the PC guy and the young Apple guy about viruses.

I just worry that Apple is going to be bastardised because of its popularity. The bigger it becomes the more bastardised it becomes i.e. profit will become more desirable and they spent less on innovating and more on just on trying to ship units (a la Microsoft/Dell style).

I hope it doesn't happen but I guess you could argue that it already is with the phasing out of FW etc... But maybe Im just fear that my little utopia in Apple land is going to be invaded by a unruly mob of millions. No longer will we be able to claim the unique status of being a mac user. But I guess its a long way off.

kgarner
Aug 16, 2006, 10:47 AM
I just worry that Apple is going to be bastardised because of its popularity. The bigger it becomes the more bastardised it becomes i.e. profit will become more desirable and they spent less on innovating and more on just on trying to ship units (a la Microsoft/Dell style).
But Jobs has already recognized that as what nearly killed Apple in the past. He stated that same sentiment in an interview (that I would link, but I am too lazy to look it up). He basically said that what killed Apple in the 90's was that that they turned the company over to the sales guys. I don't think he will let the same thing happen again.

BlizzardBomb
Aug 16, 2006, 10:53 AM
This logic makes no sense. MacOSX is a massive target for hackers especially as osx users are percieved as being so smug about being secure.

Seriously, are there any viruses for Linux (another huge UNIX-based target)?

How does it not make sense? Windows is targeted because a vast majority of users use it so they stand a bigger chance of infecting a lot of computers. And the threat is real, remember the "Leopard Picture" virus?

7on
Aug 16, 2006, 11:09 AM
How does it not make sense? Windows is targeted because a vast majority of users use it so they stand a bigger chance of infecting a lot of computers. And the threat is real, remember the "Leopard Picture" virus?
It does not make sense because if Macs have 2% markeshare, by your logic they should have 2% of the viruses.

That was a trojan. Viruses and trojans are different in that I could make an Applescript "sudo rm -rf /" and rename it .JPG and tell you to open it. Viruses are different in that you don't have to tell them to open, they open automatically - and spread automatically. There is basically no way to stop trojans without removing all ADMIN accounts from all computers and having to call up Apple everytime you run a program.

Macs have 0 viruses.

Sun Baked
Aug 16, 2006, 11:15 AM
Not the whole world, but maybe 5-10% of it before serious resistance is felt.

Queso
Aug 16, 2006, 11:31 AM
Slaughter Dell??? What are you talking about, Apple has gained a little bit of market share but they are no where close to Dell. The business world alone will keep Dell far ahead of Apple.

I dont like Dells as much as the next guy posting on here, but your statements are ridiculous.
Dell will collapse upon itself sooner or later. All those $500 Dell PCs are heavily subsidised by their models higher up the range. If the MacPro, iMac and MacBooks take the high profit consumer sales off Dell whilst HP do the same with the business customers as it looks like they're managing to do, Dell will start running at a loss and look to be going the same way as Gateway.

And once that happens, their customers will run for other suppliers. They'll be stuck in a downward spiral with nothing to fall back on.

Sun Baked
Aug 16, 2006, 12:55 PM
The proper term for the $500 Dell is loss leader ... and now that Dell is getting away from mail-in rebates to sure thing rebates, it is a little uglier.

But when you get to the checkout and add all the warranties, upgrades, and other little things they snag you with when they sell you the profitable items. They basically turn a loss into a decent profit on your sale.

It is those idiots that walk in and buy nothing but the $500 PC that hurt Dell, but they are few and far between.

emotion
Aug 16, 2006, 01:01 PM
Dell will collapse upon itself sooner or later. All those $500 Dell PCs are heavily subsidised by their models higher up the range. If the MacPro, iMac and MacBooks take the high profit consumer sales off Dell whilst HP do the same with the business customers as it looks like they're managing to do, Dell will start running at a loss and look to be going the same way as Gateway.

And once that happens, their customers will run for other suppliers. They'll be stuck in a downward spiral with nothing to fall back on.

Aren't Dell already struggling?

The problem for them is, in addition to the above, that people don't really see the need to upgrade as computers for general use are powerful enough. The big advantage Apple has is that they offer a new user experience to PC users which some people are jumping at based on their iPod experience.

Apple just have to be careful to keep their hardware quality control under control at this stage. They are already getting a reputation, as well all know (whether that's justified is another thing of course).

IJ Reilly
Aug 16, 2006, 01:25 PM
Dell and Apple aren't really comparable companies. Dell makes generic PCs and resells Windows. They re-badge printers and monitors. Their "secret to success" over the years, and the reason they've survived in such a tough market, is efficiency. They don't development significant new products, and whenever they've tried, they've failed pretty miserably (Dell Jukebox). Apple is much more of a consumer products company, better compared to Sony than Dell.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 16, 2006, 01:30 PM
I am not so sure Apple is about to take over the world. The last couple of years boom is much due to the success of the iPod. (got money to do R&D)
In order to keep growing, they need to come up with a new "iPod". It is not like all other manufacturers sit idle.

Mantishead
Aug 16, 2006, 01:42 PM
Okay so this it totally dumb but, over here in the UK our largest supermarket chain is called Tesco. For every 7 spent on the UK High Street, 1 of it goes to Tesco - meaning they're pretty big.

But we also have a well established brand called Marks & Spencer who sell really tasty food at premium prices.

People will always go to Tesco for their groceries, and Marks & Spencer will never touch them. But every now and then you go to M&S to get something tasty and get a different user experience.

People will never buy all their groceries in M&S.

Apple will never swallow the PC market... EVER.

But that doesn't matter. None of us would want them to. The reality is, Apple have to put so much time and effort into getting within spitting distance of Dell and Microsoft that the result of the labors is much better products. We don't want Apple to reach a point where it doesn't matter what they produce because they know we'll buy it anyway.

It is better that Apple needs to compete really hard - it means we benefit. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I hope Dell and Microsoft continue to do as well as ever. I hope the masses buy their rubbish PCs and load them up with Vista. PC users are so damn ignorant that they dont care that Vista is a total rip off of Mac OS. Jeez most PC users dont even understand that there is an alternative... They think Internet Explorer IS the World Wide Web.

jhu
Aug 16, 2006, 01:45 PM
it's strange the cult of personality surrounding steve jobs is around here along with the "can't do no wrong" mentality. reminds me of sony back in the day (except for the cult personality surrounding the ceo).

XNine
Aug 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
Apple will not even come close to finishing off Dell. Why? Business, and poor people. Poor people can't afford a Mac, so they buy these POS Dell's from giant electronics retailers. Business? Please, do you know how many Dell boxes get in my office building every week? A dozen at least, if not more.

Apple will gain market share, and maybe 10 years from now we'll see the collapse of Windows, as it should be.

And to say that Macs don't have viruses because of marketshare is stupid. Macs don't ahve viruses because no one has created one yet. There's proof of concepts, but no viruses.

The point is, Apple isn't going to take over the entire industry. As long as they fight basic comuting hardware (remember the ACD and PRO speaker ports?) and charge big $ for their equipment, they won't take the industry over.

MisterEd
Aug 16, 2006, 02:33 PM
I think Google are closer to taking over the world than Apple.... ;)

kashimo
Aug 16, 2006, 08:24 PM
I love mac and Apple, but take over the world?

Maybe they will get a larger share. But you know that in Japan...there are many people who have never heard of Macintosh. Why? No commercials. We don't have the current commercials running in Japan. We only have iTunes and iPod commercials.

I can sit and watch people at computer stores pass over the mac. Why? they have no clue what it is . They hear about Dell (over 100 commercials a day) they hear about Sony, Toshiba, and all the other Japanese companies. They see tons of commercials a day. I have only seen one Mac commercial in 7 years of living in Japan. It was in 2001 for the G5 PowerMac. The one where they guy is thrown back in his chair and through walls by the awsome power.

If Apple would produce some computer commercials and buy time on Japanese TV (Japanese watch a lot of it), they would probably make billions.

In China...less than 1% presence. India...less than 1% presence. Those are huge populations that only know Windows and names like Dell and Sony.

Lollypop
Aug 17, 2006, 01:22 AM
People will always go to Tesco for their groceries, and Marks & Spencer will never touch them. But every now and then you go to M&S to get something tasty and get a different user experience.

People will never buy all their groceries in M&S.

Apple will never swallow the PC market... EVER.



To counter your arguement, M&S will never give tesco a run for its money, but people do go there sometimes, thats one of apples problems, they need to make people realize that a mac is a viable alternative!

In China...less than 1% presence. India...less than 1% presence. Those are huge populations that only know Windows and names like Dell and Sony.

Same problem over here! Apples past problems revolved around high costs, bad product management and incorrect marketing (IMO) But while they have, to an extent, resolved most of the issues, they still need to market their products elsewhere. You have seen one apple add, I have never ever seen a single one! Its going to be hard to concor the world if nobody knows about you.

virus1
Aug 17, 2006, 01:44 AM
I never write things like this -- but people do realize that Apple is about to slaughter Dell and any other competitor around, right?

Steve will deliver an iPhone. And then, anyone who wants to buy a Dell or HP and wait around for Vista when they can have both Leopard and Vista on one machine is -- well -- stupid.

Steve, you outlasted them all. Pixar, the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, OSX -- thanks for making our lives better.

And from me personally, thanks for the Powerbooks and iBooks and the Shuffle (though my lanyard is dirty. Can I get a new one for free? And I am too scared to open my new video iPod. Help.)

Sorry I never gush like this but was talking to my friend about Steve tonight. Unreal contribution to society, I mean it.

What is Disney gonna do with you, Jobs? Or what are you going to do for Disney? The studios need to rethink their development slate "charms on their charm bracelet", elite-executive-who's never-touched-a-mole-richardson workaday caste problem. It's something you can remake/remodel, Steve; Hollywood needs ya.

(Though as a woman, you need a better jeans stylist, some of those black t's are really ugly and you might rethink what's left of your hair.)
couldn't agree with you more. but its not like hollywood needs him. steve just knows where to put the priorities in films, but he has already set up pixar to do that, so he has already done his work. if hollywood deserves it, they will learn the example that pixar is laying down with all thier smash hits, that what makes movies good is the story, and the message.

apple (read:jobs) is smart. these computers kick ass, these ipods kick ass, and all the content (provided by apple) kicks ass, as well as the software. apple is gaining marketshare because their products rock, not just how they are advertised. (although they are advertised very well). they are well designed, beautiful, and reasonably priced. apple has it all. the industry has always seen the fact that apple doesn't liscence osx to other hardware as a flaw, but when apple gains marketshare, people will realize that was a buisness move, and a smart one. apple is going to dominate, and it will improve and satisfy the technological cravings of the industry, and will stay on top as long as they have jobs, but after that, who knows?

California
Aug 17, 2006, 03:10 AM
Okay so this it totally dumb but, over here in the UK our largest supermarket chain is called Tesco. For every 7 spent on the UK High Street, 1 of it goes to Tesco - meaning they're pretty big.

But we also have a well established brand called Marks & Spencer who sell really tasty food at premium prices.

People will always go to Tesco for their groceries, and Marks & Spencer will never touch them. But every now and then you go to M&S to get something tasty and get a different user experience.

People will never buy all their groceries in M&S.

Apple will never swallow the PC market... EVER.

But that doesn't matter. None of us would want them to. The reality is, Apple have to put so much time and effort into getting within spitting distance of Dell and Microsoft that the result of the labors is much better products. We don't want Apple to reach a point where it doesn't matter what they produce because they know we'll buy it anyway.

It is better that Apple needs to compete really hard - it means we benefit. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I hope Dell and Microsoft continue to do as well as ever. I hope the masses buy their rubbish PCs and load them up with Vista. PC users are so damn ignorant that they dont care that Vista is a total rip off of Mac OS. Jeez most PC users dont even understand that there is an alternative... They think Internet Explorer IS the World Wide Web.

I was just in downtown London and my hotel happened to be across the street from a tube entrance with a M and S.

Tasty? I feel so sorry for you Brits. Really. Whole Foods/Trader Joe's here makes M and S look like 7-11 stop and go convenience markets. I'm sorry for you guys. You Brits also have to pay like almost 20USD toll just to drive into downtown London? Sad.

Anyway, that has to do with my original point. Apple's prices have come waaaay down. Once people do the math, they will get hit in the head by Apple. And if you can run windoze and OSX on one cheap lappie, uh, you are not too brilliant if you keep chosing a Hell.

Blue Velvet
Aug 17, 2006, 03:13 AM
You Brits also have to pay like almost 20USD toll just to drive into downtown London? Sad.

What do you know about London's transport policy? Nothing.

Your wishful thinking about Apple and marketshare demonstrates the same level of naivety.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 03:14 AM
couldn't agree with you more. but its not like hollywood needs him. steve just knows where to put the priorities in films, but he has already set up pixar to do that, so he has already done his work. if hollywood deserves it, they will learn the example that pixar is laying down with all thier smash hits, that what makes movies good is the story, and the message.

apple (read:jobs) is smart. these computers kick ass, these ipods kick ass, and all the content (provided by apple) kicks ass, as well as the software. apple is gaining marketshare because their products rock, not just how they are advertised. (although they are advertised very well). they are well designed, beautiful, and reasonably priced. apple has it all. the industry has always seen the fact that apple doesn't liscence osx to other hardware as a flaw, but when apple gains marketshare, people will realize that was a buisness move, and a smart one. apple is going to dominate, and it will improve and satisfy the technological cravings of the industry, and will stay on top as long as they have jobs, but after that, who knows?

Yeah, I know. I'm no groupie, just an admirer of him. And it is so weird that some journo thought up a stupid article about "when Jobs retires" or what would Apple do w/out Jobs -- that seems to have instigated this rumor/idea that Jobs is through. He's not. Gates threw in the towel because Jobs won and he didn't want to play marbles anymore.... boo hoo.

spicyapple
Aug 17, 2006, 03:17 AM
I can never see an Apple iPhone happening. The large telcos will never let that happen as it did for the music industry when Apple got away with fixed pricing. The telcos are already in a battle against VOIP and they are going to fight Steve...

...unless Apple releases a VOIP iPhone, then Apple will once again revolutionize another industry. I see this happening, soon. :)

California
Aug 17, 2006, 03:25 AM
it's strange the cult of personality surrounding steve jobs is around here along with the "can't do no wrong" mentality. reminds me of sony back in the day (except for the cult personality surrounding the ceo).

I know Jobs can do wrong. He's a bit too New Agey and not moral 'nuff on religion and he's made some bad calculations in his day, and his mid seventies rock and roll sensibility is dated (U2 video iPods? Yich.) and he needs to really study the great modernists from the Dada movement to the Bauhaus school to understand his own glass cube obsession. Autodidacts have great instincts but fall back on nostalgic stylistics in a pinch (again, the U2 video iPod?) -- and look at the unlikability factor in casting the guy as the "Mac" in the Mac commercials. A little bit too "Steve" there, methinks. Cute smart alek -- but not loveable like the Windoze actor! Stylistic mistake on Apple's part. The smartest kid in the room is never the most likeable -- bad casting and therefore, bad PR, Steve.

But Jobs gets TOTAL props in my cult. The cult of excellence.

I believe in meritocracy.

ZoomZoomZoom
Aug 17, 2006, 03:50 AM
Slaughter Dell??? What are you talking about, Apple has gained a little bit of market share but they are no where close to Dell. The business world alone will keep Dell far ahead of Apple.

I dont like Dells as much as the next guy posting on here, but your statements are ridiculous.

I don't think the statement was ridiculous. Maybe a bit inaccurate because it failed to take into account corporate purchases, but in selling to customers, Apple is kicking Dell's ass

Apple's laptop marketshare is leaping up, mostly at Dell's expense. Laptop marketshare matters a lot, especially considering that the trend is moving away from desktops and towards laptops now. (Except for heavy lifting / serious gaming.) In the retail arena, Apple's laptop marketshare doubled in 6 months. That's not just "a little bit".

Apple is also resounding in the college-aged market, where they're likely to pick up some lifelong (and rabid) customers. Word spreads fast on campus, too, when you have a ton of people living together, and some of them sport good-looking laptops that they can claim have no viruses - and now with the intel switch, can (1) run windows and (2) come at competitive prices.

Queso
Aug 17, 2006, 04:00 AM
I was just in downtown London and my hotel happened to be across the street from a tube entrance with a M and S.

Tasty? I feel so sorry for you Brits. Really. Whole Foods/Trader Joe's here makes M and S look like 7-11 stop and go convenience markets.
Er, the M&S Simply Food stores, like the ones at Tube stations, are stop and go convenience markets. The range M&S have in their full Food Hall stores is what Mantishead is likely referring to.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 04:28 AM
What do you know about London's transport policy? Nothing.

Your wishful thinking about Apple and marketshare demonstrates the same level of naivety.

Don't claim to know a thing. Wasn't a put down of UK. Loved it.

Admiring Apple/Jobs for excellence -- which always rises to the top -- isn't "wishful" nor "wistful".

Wanting the world to be a meritocracy isn't naive (nor a demonstration of naivete). It's justice with style.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 04:29 AM
Er, the M&S Simply Food stores, like the ones at Tube stations, are stop and go convenience markets. The range M&S have in their full Food Hall stores is what Mantishead is likely referring to.

No wonder I was underimpressed! Anyway, I just wish more Brits would come to CA. Worked for some, dated a few, admire most. I'll be back in Jan. Oh and of course, I forgot to mention Harrod's. Got lost.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 04:34 AM
I don't think the statement was ridiculous. Maybe a bit inaccurate because it failed to take into account corporate purchases, but in selling to customers, Apple is kicking Dell's ass

Apple's laptop marketshare is leaping up, mostly at Dell's expense. Laptop marketshare matters a lot, especially considering that the trend is moving away from desktops and towards laptops now. (Except for heavy lifting / serious gaming.) In the retail arena, Apple's laptop marketshare doubled in 6 months. That's not just "a little bit".

Apple is also resounding in the college-aged market, where they're likely to pick up some lifelong (and rabid) customers. Word spreads fast on campus, too, when you have a ton of people living together, and some of them sport good-looking laptops that they can claim have no viruses - and now with the intel switch, can (1) run windows and (2) come at competitive prices.


Oh yeah, I forgot, the other corrupt reason that Dell holds on to business marketshare is that IT people are scared of losing their jobs when there's no viruses or problems with computers. Bought a drive from a Dell ITer today. He knows his livelihood is staked to problems with PCs, and he ain't about to advocate switching to Macs to his customers anytime soon. THIS is a huge PR/ education problem for Apple. People need to understand that the old 90's business model for IT departments is dead and dying with Apple.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 04:37 AM
it's strange the cult of personality surrounding steve jobs is around here along with the "can't do no wrong" mentality. reminds me of sony back in the day (except for the cult personality surrounding the ceo).

I think there's a "cult" of PC IT personel who desperately want to keep their corporate jobs and are scared of Apple's lower prices and ease of use and lack of viruses.

They need you to buy Dells so they have a job.

caveman_uk
Aug 17, 2006, 04:46 AM
Anyway, I just wish more Brits would come to CA. .
Not unless you build a train line from here to there - I'm not worried about the terrorists. The hassle of using an airport right now and the pilferring sods at airports worry me more.

rdowns
Aug 17, 2006, 04:46 AM
Yeah, I know. I'm no groupie, just an admirer of him. And it is so weird that some journo thought up a stupid article about "when Jobs retires" or what would Apple do w/out Jobs -- that seems to have instigated this rumor/idea that Jobs is through. He's not. Gates threw in the towel because Jobs won and he didn't want to play marbles anymore.... boo hoo.

Further validation of Blue Velvet's comments above.

rdowns
Aug 17, 2006, 05:04 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot, the other corrupt reason that Dell holds on to business marketshare is that IT people are scared of losing their jobs when there's no viruses or problems with computers. Bought a drive from a Dell ITer today. He knows his livelihood is staked to problems with PCs, and he ain't about to advocate switching to Macs to his customers anytime soon. THIS is a huge PR/ education problem for Apple. People need to understand that the old 90's business model for IT departments is dead and dying with Apple.

You make a good point here. IT is a big roadblock to Apple gaining anything but pockets of acceptance in business. I have heard many ridiculous reasons for not adopting Apple ( I was a reseller for 10 years and heavily involved with IT in my last 2 jobs) but there are some very valid reasons for not doing so.

1. Users - companies hardly want to have to retrain their entire user base.
2. Legacy apps - the time, cost and hassle of rewriting apps is a huge.
3. Skills - where do companies find skilled Apple IT people?
4. Control - Correct me if I'm wrong but Macs in no way can be controlled like a PC can on a network.

As much as I'd love to put Macs in my department (and we are about to undertake a complete rewrite of our sales system), I can't see how I would have to deal with retraining my staff of 23. Not only on OS X but new apps. What hit in productivity would we take and for how long?

With limited IT resources, I had one of my employees create a massive Access database that gives me all kinds of information that I can not get anywhere else at this point. IT won't touch it and I'm worried it could blow up any day. The employee who created it is no longer with us.

The cost - Sure I could plop a mini on every desk with a cheap Dell LCD but what about software? Re-buy Office for 23? While our sales system works (mostly) under OS X, i would need a lot of tweaking.

ZoomZoomZoom
Aug 17, 2006, 05:12 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot, the other corrupt reason that Dell holds on to business marketshare is that IT people are scared of losing their jobs when there's no viruses or problems with computers. Bought a drive from a Dell ITer today. He knows his livelihood is staked to problems with PCs, and he ain't about to advocate switching to Macs to his customers anytime soon. THIS is a huge PR/ education problem for Apple. People need to understand that the old 90's business model for IT departments is dead and dying with Apple.

I would think that Dell beats Apple handily corporate marketshare because of their low prices and the ability to run Windows.(Macs run Windows now, but not without BootCamp, and you have to factor in the cost of purchasing a Windows license.) Plus, purchasing computers corporately usually carries much better customer service than what the normal customer can get. I doubt that Apple is going to win in that arena any time soon.

Queso
Aug 17, 2006, 05:25 AM
But do we even want Apple chasing after the corporate market? I'd rather they concentrate on the markets they're fighting for now, namely education, consumer, creative and high-end tech. Small businesses could be added to that, but the corporate market is not going to go Mac. Even if IT jumps off the Microsoft ship, they'll be running for Linux rather an OSX.

So Apple will be wasting resources by going after enterprise. Corp IT types know about OSX and many now have OSX machines at home, but there's a huge jump between that and managing 40,000 workstations, and to bridge that gap will cost Apple big time.

jhu
Aug 17, 2006, 06:27 AM
I think there's a "cult" of PC IT personel who desperately want to keep their corporate jobs and are scared of Apple's lower prices and ease of use and lack of viruses.

They need you to buy Dells so they have a job.

or maybe they're afraid of the lack of enterprise applications on the mac

Palad1
Aug 17, 2006, 08:33 AM
The cost - Sure I could plop a mini on every desk with a cheap Dell LCD but what about software? Re-buy Office for 23? While our sales system works (mostly) under OS X, i would need a lot of tweaking.

OR... Hire a contractor and turn your access prototype in a working & documented application? :D

I've never seen any access application age gracefully. It works like a charm for 2/3 years, then when everyone realize how great that little app that "Bob in accounting" made and start using it, things get ugly. Real fast...

IJ Reilly
Aug 17, 2006, 10:47 AM
Gates threw in the towel because Jobs won and he didn't want to play marbles anymore.... boo hoo.

Ah, yeah, sure, whatever you say. Give me $50 billion and I might be tempted to "throw in the towel" too.

Obligatory eye-rolling to follow.














:rolleyes:

Mantishead
Aug 17, 2006, 12:37 PM
You Brits also have to pay like almost 20USD toll just to drive into downtown London? Sad.

Yea but those congestion charges are the reason in 50 years we will be able to breathe without oxygen tanks whilst California will be covered by the Pacific after all your CO2 melted the ice caps.

Not that I have a problem with America, I love it. :-)

And as pointed out, I was in fact talking about the full on M & S food hall, not the ones outside the tube station. Though I am by no means sticking up for the quality of produce we are subjected to in the UK. It sux big time.

Anyway, there was an ealier point about Apple's poor marketing etc. Let's face it, Steve and his team did a pretty good job of dragging Apple back by fixing (starting again) the OS and making some pretty decent hardware -- but it's the IPod that's put them on the map. As Steve said, in the last 12 months 50% of the Macs that have been purchased are PC Switchers.

You can bet your life that this would never have happened had the Ipod and iTunes not pointed out to the world that there was a company called Apple and they made okay stuff...

My Point? The iPod has been the making, or breaking, of Apple depending on your point of view.

I have been using PCs for the last 20 years. Basically because my father had them in his business and would bring one home occaisionally. After five years of graphic design and video editing I have finally decided to make the Switch. Why? Because I am nothing short of blown away by the user experience offered by Max OS X and the capabilities of the new Mac Pro. It has nothing to do with Boot Camp, and frankly anybody who wants to buy a Mac to boot into Vista needs to take a cold shower.

jhu
Aug 17, 2006, 01:23 PM
Yeah, I know. I'm no groupie, just an admirer of him. And it is so weird that some journo thought up a stupid article about "when Jobs retires" or what would Apple do w/out Jobs -- that seems to have instigated this rumor/idea that Jobs is through. He's not. Gates threw in the towel because Jobs won and he didn't want to play marbles anymore.... boo hoo.

let's see, world's wealthiest man retires to focus on helping out poor people in underdeveloped countries. i guess you're right, gates threw in the towel and is such a sore loser.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 01:40 PM
let's see, world's wealthiest man retires to focus on helping out poor people in underdeveloped countries. i guess you're right, gates threw in the towel and is such a sore loser.

As if he gave up all the dough? Don't think so. In fact I'm suffering in the market over Gate's ethanol bets. There's nothing courageous or honorable in retiring early and saving taxes on charity if one has a gift for business. Didn't notice him jumping on those supposed third world 100 dollar Linux laptops, if you want to give him third world charity props. I think he just realized his theft of Mac's original os finally pooped out with Vista and Jobs won.

California
Aug 17, 2006, 01:50 PM
You make a good point here. IT is a big roadblock to Apple gaining anything but pockets of acceptance in business. I have heard many ridiculous reasons for not adopting Apple ( I was a reseller for 10 years and heavily involved with IT in my last 2 jobs) but there are some very valid reasons for not doing so.

1. Users - companies hardly want to have to retrain their entire user base.
2. Legacy apps - the time, cost and hassle of rewriting apps is a huge.
3. Skills - where do companies find skilled Apple IT people?
4. Control - Correct me if I'm wrong but Macs in no way can be controlled like a PC can on a network.

As much as I'd love to put Macs in my department (and we are about to undertake a complete rewrite of our sales system), I can't see how I would have to deal with retraining my staff of 23. Not only on OS X but new apps. What hit in productivity would we take and for how long?

With limited IT resources, I had one of my employees create a massive Access database that gives me all kinds of information that I can not get anywhere else at this point. IT won't touch it and I'm worried it could blow up any day. The employee who created it is no longer with us.

The cost - Sure I could plop a mini on every desk with a cheap Dell LCD but what about software? Re-buy Office for 23? While our sales system works (mostly) under OS X, i would need a lot of tweaking.

That's really interesting. In Apple's favor on the retraining/training issue, an 86 year old relative of mine and his 77 year old wife are both sailing away on their new iMac 20" -- the ease of use of Apple is astounding.

But doesn't Windoze nickle and dime you over the years in terms of security and hardware problems? Just a question. Too bad you can't have APple at work. What does M$ say about switching Office licenses?

AlBDamned
Aug 17, 2006, 01:54 PM
You Brits also have to pay like almost 20USD toll just to drive into downtown London? Sad.



I'm not one to defend Red Ken's congestion charge, but 8 isn't "almost" US $20.

According to XE...

Queso
Aug 17, 2006, 01:56 PM
Some of us don't pay anything, and can park for free too :)

**revs motorbike**

California
Aug 17, 2006, 01:59 PM
Yea but those congestion charges are the reason in 50 years we will be able to breathe without oxygen tanks whilst California will be covered by the Pacific after all your CO2 melted the ice caps.

Not that I have a problem with America, I love it. :-)

And as pointed out, I was in fact talking about the full on M & S food hall, not the ones outside the tube station. Though I am by no means sticking up for the quality of produce we are subjected to in the UK. It sux big time.

Anyway, there was an ealier point about Apple's poor marketing etc. Let's face it, Steve and his team did a pretty good job of dragging Apple back by fixing (starting again) the OS and making some pretty decent hardware -- but it's the IPod that's put them on the map. As Steve said, in the last 12 months 50% of the Macs that have been purchased are PC Switchers.

You can bet your life that this would never have happened had the Ipod and iTunes not pointed out to the world that there was a company called Apple and they made okay stuff...

My Point? The iPod has been the making, or breaking, of Apple depending on your point of view.

I have been using PCs for the last 20 years. Basically because my father had them in his business and would bring one home occaisionally. After five years of graphic design and video editing I have finally decided to make the Switch. Why? Because I am nothing short of blown away by the user experience offered by Max OS X and the capabilities of the new Mac Pro. It has nothing to do with Boot Camp, and frankly anybody who wants to buy a Mac to boot into Vista needs to take a cold shower.

I know -- the iPod. That's what I couldn't get over how amazing Jobs' career has been. Interesting about Vista on a mac, but I haven't been on Windoze since the late 80's.

jhu
Aug 17, 2006, 04:22 PM
.

jhu
Aug 17, 2006, 04:29 PM
As if he gave up all the dough? Don't think so. In fact I'm suffering in the market over Gate's ethanol bets. There's nothing courageous or honorable in retiring early and saving taxes on charity if one has a gift for business. Didn't notice him jumping on those supposed third world 100 dollar Linux laptops, if you want to give him third world charity props. I think he just realized his theft of Mac's original os finally pooped out with Vista and Jobs won.

well, that's rather cynical of you. i wonder if you noticed the number of lives saved with the malaria and tb treatment programs as well as hiv prevention programs he's supported?

i'll have to agree with what others have been saying about you.

Mantishead
Aug 18, 2006, 02:46 AM
Let's just face facts. Apple is great. Steve Jobs is great. Max OS X is great. No question. Better software, better hardware... Everyone's a winner.

But love them or hate them. Computing is where it is today because of MS and Bill. Yes the've made some tragic software. Yes they used some devicive business tactics, but the reality is - the use of the web, home computers, digital cameras - they've all enjoyed their exponential growth because of MS.

MS software today is not absolutely terrible. It's just that Apple software is so much better. And Apple don't exactly innovate all the time. I mean oooo virtual desktops in Leopard. Nice, haven't seen those before.

And anybody who thinks the work Bill and Melinda are doing in the 3rd world is a big ol tax break is just plain old cynical.

emotion
Aug 18, 2006, 04:26 AM
Let's just face facts. Apple is great. Steve Jobs is great. Max OS X is great. No question. Better software, better hardware... Everyone's a winner.

But love them or hate them. Computing is where it is today because of MS and Bill. Yes the've made some tragic software. Yes they used some devicive business tactics, but the reality is - the use of the web, home computers, digital cameras - they've all enjoyed their exponential growth because of MS.


I think you may have that the wrong way around. MS took a while to jump on the web bandwagon at the start, but eventually won the war against netscape.

MS are defintely followers rather than innovators, they have got away with this simply because their software is just about good enough for the job.

I think people should be under no illusions that MS=evil and Apple=good either. Both are out to make as much money as possible for their shareholders. It's just that Apple PR will get them over some of the less than perfect ways they go about things.

That said I don't have access to let alone own a MS based machine (I use Macosx and linux) so Apple are doing something right.

IJ Reilly
Aug 18, 2006, 10:39 AM
Computing is where it is today because of MS and Bill.

Yes, and this is precisely the problem with the industry today. It would be a more diverse place with more choices and better and probably less expensive technology if it weren't for Microsoft and Bill. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve no credit for advancing the industry, which has moved forward despite them and not because of them -- and plenty of blame for retarding it.

XNine
Aug 18, 2006, 01:01 PM
Let's just face facts. Apple is great. Steve Jobs is great. Max OS X is great. No question. Better software, better hardware... Everyone's a winner.

But love them or hate them. Computing is where it is today because of MS and Bill. Yes the've made some tragic software. Yes they used some devicive business tactics, but the reality is - the use of the web, home computers, digital cameras - they've all enjoyed their exponential growth because of MS.

MS software today is not absolutely terrible. It's just that Apple software is so much better. And Apple don't exactly innovate all the time. I mean oooo virtual desktops in Leopard. Nice, haven't seen those before.

And anybody who thinks the work Bill and Melinda are doing in the 3rd world is a big ol tax break is just plain old cynical.

Uh, NO. Computing is the way it is because of APPLE. They made computers with user interfaces, and mice. Everyone chastized them, and called them stupid for it, but look what everyone is using now (and we won't get into the whole Xerox/Apple/MS BS right now).

And yes, it is just a "big ol' tax break." You think he would have given any money away if he didn't look like a total ass to the entire world for his business practices? The answer: No.

If he was so concerned about technology and fair business practices, there wouldn't be the hatred for MS that there is, and our technologies wouldn't be laden with such downfalls as they are now.

XNine
Aug 18, 2006, 01:14 PM
As if he gave up all the dough? Don't think so. In fact I'm suffering in the market over Gate's ethanol bets. There's nothing courageous or honorable in retiring early and saving taxes on charity if one has a gift for business. Didn't notice him jumping on those supposed third world 100 dollar Linux laptops, if you want to give him third world charity props. I think he just realized his theft of Mac's original os finally pooped out with Vista and Jobs won.

Anyone with a brain won't jump on those 3rd world 100 dollar laptops. ****, these kids can't even afford to eat decently, and we're going to ask their countries to pay for 100 dollar laptops? :rolleyes: There are much more serious issues out there than these disease ridden, starving children needing laptops of any kind.

Gates is a douchebag, but not for this...

Mantishead
Aug 18, 2006, 05:13 PM
I read your comments with interest.

In fact I never once suggested that Microsoft have innovated. But I still maintain that the industry is where it is because of Microsoft.

There's only so much people are prepared to pay for quality. Sure the filthy rich and those with impeccable taste will always choose quality but MS gave the world what the world wants. Easy access to mediocre products. That's why Ford sell more cars in the UK than any other manufacturer. It's not because they make the best cars. It's because the make pretty good cars for pretty good money.

Exclusive, proprietory industry is always better quality than what's fed to the masses. Simply because those with smaller market share need to THINK in order to gain a customer base.

The reason Apple made such damn good products is because they have to claw there way into the marketplace and fight for every user they gain. Does anyone honestly believe that Apple would continue to innovate to the extent they do if they were top dog. Not a chance.

The computer industry, and the Apple cultists, should praise Microsoft - they're the reason Max OS X is as good as it is.

California
Aug 18, 2006, 05:37 PM
well, that's rather cynical of you. i wonder if you noticed the number of lives saved with the malaria and tb treatment programs as well as hiv prevention programs he's supported?

i'll have to agree with what others have been saying about you.

Uh, I didn't start this thread to open myself up for any sort of personal characterization by any other poster. Please.

I wonder if you noticed the number of wasted manhours on M$ products when people could have been figuring out cures for the world's ills? I wouldn't call that "cynical" -- I'd call that being "practical".

I would have to agree that you don't know me nor do any of the other posters here...

California
Aug 18, 2006, 05:44 PM
Anyone with a brain won't jump on those 3rd world 100 dollar laptops. ****, these kids can't even afford to eat decently, and we're going to ask their countries to pay for 100 dollar laptops? :rolleyes: There are much more serious issues out there than these disease ridden, starving children needing laptops of any kind.

Gates is a douchebag, but not for this...


Again, I just think his rip off of Mac's original OS has finally petered out with Vista and Gates picked up his marbles and went home. THe only kind of charity that really works is the kind that doesn't cost any money -- manhours spent on teaching, training and loving the unloved, underdeveloped and forgotten.

jhu
Aug 18, 2006, 07:05 PM
Uh, I didn't start this thread to open myself up for any sort of personal characterization by any other poster. Please.


well, you're judged by your words. take that for what it's worth.


I wonder if you noticed the number of wasted manhours on M$ products when people could have been figuring out cures for the world's ills? I wouldn't call that "cynical" -- I'd call that being "practical".

completely irrelevant and can really be applied to anything. imagine the amount of wasted time people spend playing world of warcraft when they could have been figuring out the cures for the world's ills.

THe only kind of charity that really works is the kind that doesn't cost any money -- manhours spent on teaching, training and loving the unloved, underdeveloped and forgotten.

none of that will help if they're dead.

California
Aug 19, 2006, 05:07 AM
well, you're judged by your words. take that for what it's worth. I can only take it as WTF are you talking about?
Please refrain from any personal intimations. It is against MR rules.


imagine the amount of wasted time people spend playing world of warcraft when they could have been figuring out the cures for the world's ills.

Yeah. Imagine.


none of that will help if they're dead.

Wait, so now Gates is saving people from... death?

Take the Gates' genuflection to a M$ site, if there are any.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 19, 2006, 05:51 AM
mud slinging fest...cool :rolleyes:

California
Aug 19, 2006, 08:34 PM
mud slinging fest...cool :rolleyes:

Unintended mudslinging believe me. But I'm Bette Davis on three martinis in the party scene of ALL ABOUT EVE if I need to be...

dukebound85
Aug 19, 2006, 09:32 PM
As if he gave up all the dough? Don't think so. In fact I'm suffering in the market over Gate's ethanol bets. There's nothing courageous or honorable in retiring early and saving taxes on charity if one has a gift for business. Didn't notice him jumping on those supposed third world 100 dollar Linux laptops, if you want to give him third world charity props. I think he just realized his theft of Mac's original os finally pooped out with Vista and Jobs won.

Have you given up all your "dough"? Stop being such a hypocrit. I mean he has well earned his money and is one of the biggest givers in the world. Watch him donate his entire fortune away once he dies.

California
Aug 19, 2006, 10:45 PM
Have you given up all your "dough"? Stop being such a hypocrit. I mean he has well earned his money and is one of the biggest givers in the world. Watch him donate his entire fortune away once he dies.

"Watch him donate his entire fortune away once he dies"?

Wow.

Do you honestly believe Bill Gates will have the choice to take his money with him when he dies?

I am sorry, but I am going to have to report your hilarious personal slur to the mods.
You don't know me, I never said I was giving up all my "dough" and it is supposedly a forum discussion on newsworthy topics. Not about me.

Meanwhile, I'll try to wipe from memory the idiocy of your belief that Gates is uber-charitable if he gives all his money away once he dies.

dukebound85
Aug 19, 2006, 11:03 PM
"Watch him donate his entire fortune away once he dies"?

Wow.

Do you honestly believe Bill Gates will have the choice to take his money with him when he dies?

I am sorry, but I am going to have to report your hilarious personal slur to the mods.
You don't know me, I never said I was giving up all my "dough" and it is supposedly a forum discussion on newsworthy topics. Not about me.

Meanwhile, I'll try to wipe from memory the idiocy of your belief that Gates is uber-charitable if he gives all his money away once he dies.

There was nothing personal about that, you are bashing bill gates and I said I wouldnt be suprised that he will his fortune away. How can you take offense to that?

Moreso how is that a slur when I reference your exact words you directed to Mr Gates and apply them to you about giving all his "dough" aka wealth to good causes.

I am honestly appalled and at a lost of words for both your interpretation and your intolerance to anything that differs from what you believe

I just get frustrated at those who dont recognize the good Mr. Gates has done to the world. Just because he founded microsoft is in no way to be cause to put him down. I mean seriously people

California
Aug 19, 2006, 11:37 PM
There was nothing personal about that, you are bashing bill gates and I said I wouldnt be suprised that he will his fortune away. How can you take offense to that?

Moreso how is that a slur when I reference your exact words you directed to Mr Gates and apply them to you about giving all his "dough" aka wealth to good causes.

I am honestly appalled and at a lost of words for both your interpretation and your intolerance to anything that differs from what you believe

I just get frustrated at those who dont recognize the good Mr. Gates has done to the world. Just because he founded microsoft is in no way to be cause to put him down. I mean seriously people

My personal charitable instincts have nothing to do with the conversation, compounded by the fact I never inferred nor stated Gates to be a hypocrite. That particular slander is of your own chosing and it is completely against MR rules.

True charity, as true heroism, has to do with sacrifice. For it to "mean something" to Bill Gates to be truly charitable, he would one, have to be alive whilst giving a noble amount of money and two, it would have to be an act or gift that encroached upon his personal lifestyle in some way.

In other words, look up the parable of the widow's mite. She gave all she had to live on to charity, and she was accounted for giving "more" by Jesus than the true hypocrites, the religious leaders of the day who seemed to give "more" but really were extremely cheap.

It's extremely difficult, (and boring for this MR person), to attempt to gauge Bill Gates' charity -- as well as it has nothing to do whatsoever with Apple or Steve Jobs.

But thinking about it, I guess I would want a twenty five year contract with Gates to promise to support Microsoft for Mac? That would be charitable of him.

dukebound85
Aug 19, 2006, 11:54 PM
My personal charitable instincts have nothing to do with the conversation, compounded by the fact I never inferred nor stated Gates to be a hypocrite. That particular slander is of your own chosing and it is completely against MR rules.

True charity, as true heroism, has to do with sacrifice. For it to "mean something" to Bill Gates to be truly charitable, he would one, have to be alive whilst giving a noble amount of money and two, it would have to be an act or gift that encroached upon his personal lifestyle in some way.

In other words, look up the parable of the widow's mite. She gave all she had to live on to charity, and she was accounted for giving "more" by Jesus than the true hypocrites, the religious leaders of the day who seemed to give "more" but really were extremely cheap.

It's extremely difficult, (and boring for this MR person), to attempt to gauge Bill Gates' charity -- as well as it has nothing to do whatsoever with Apple or Steve Jobs.

But thinking about it, I guess I would want a twenty five year contract with Gates to promise to support Microsoft for Mac? That would be charitable of him.

Yes I am well read of the Bible and that story no need to lecture me on that.


As far as my commenting on your charitable instincts then yes I am sorry. I spoke out of frustration due to what I believe was your slander on Mr Gates and that is uncalled for. Me personally, will not criticize those unless I hold myself to the same standards as to that which I am criticizing

I would like to hope that you think it would be charitable for Mr Gates to will his fortune away for the greater good but apparently you dont feel that is charity as he would not have to sacrifice in giving it. Never mind he is donating millions and possibly billions currently

But yes, I do agree with the last thing you said about microsoft support for the mac platform for many years to come :)

IJ Reilly
Aug 20, 2006, 11:17 AM
We've talked about this in other threads, but my problem with Bill's Billions is that he now appears to be attempting to do with charity what he had already done with technology -- which is to use his clout to move it in the direction he thinks it ought to go, and to hell with everybody else. Just look at the way the Gates Foundation is pushing smaller schools. Hardly everyone in teaching agrees that smaller schools are a cure for educational ills -- but if that's what Bill thinks, then smaller schools it is. The man always was, is and probably always will be, a major control freak. He feels a need to dominate in everything he does. This not necessarily a good personality trait for a philanthropist to have.

California
Aug 20, 2006, 09:48 PM
As far as my commenting on your charitable instincts then yes I am sorry. I spoke out of frustration due to what I believe was your slander on Mr Gates and that is uncalled for. Me personally, will not criticize those unless I hold myself to the same standards as to that which I am criticizing

I would like to hope that you think it would be charitable for Mr Gates to will his fortune away for the greater good but apparently you dont feel that is charity as he would not have to sacrifice in giving it. Never mind he is donating millions and possibly billions currently


Dear dukebound

Apparently, my instincts that Gates' "charity" is nothing of the sort are right. He's propping up old media -- a distinctly NON charitable enterprise -- by buying up newspapers with his money.

Made today's front page of DRUDGE: http://www.drudgereport.com/flashbg.htm

DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN AUG 20, 2006 16:01:02 ET XXXXX

BILL GATES "CHARITY" FOUNDATION FINANCES NEWSPAPER PURCHASES

The BILL & MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION declares its noble mission is to bring "innovations in health and learning to the global community."

But the world's largest philanthropic organization also is among the organizations that collectively loaned nearly $400 million to MEDIANEWS GROUP INC. -- for the acquisition of newspapers in California and Minnesota!

"I thought this foundation was all about starving kids, not starving newspapers," mocked one Seattle insider.

MORE

The GATES FOUNDATION loaned an unspecified amount to MEDIANEWS, along with GENERAL ELECTRIC.

In April, MEDIANEWS agreed to buy four newspapers, including the SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS and CONTRA COSTA TIMES, from MCCLATCHY CO. for $1 billion. MEDIANEWS also bought California's MONTEREY COUNTY HERALD and the ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS in Minnesota. It also own the DENVER POST.

The move into funding media acquisitions was unusual for the BILL & MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION, whose donations usually go to health and anti-poverty purposes.

In June, financier Warren Buffett announced he would donate an estimated $31 billion to the GATES FOUNDATION, bringing its total endowment to more than $60 billion -- which could easily save every newspaper in America!

Developing...

ghall
Aug 25, 2006, 10:10 PM
Well, Bill Gates give a lot of money to my school, but what whould you do if you had that kinda money? I don't think of him as a generous man, I think of him as a man who gives away his excess cash. If he were truly generous, he whouldn't live in a giant mansion. He'd live like a normal person, giving away most of his money, keeping just enough for him and his family to live, own a nice medium-sized house, with all the comforts that most people enjoy. Instead, he just gives away the money he doesn't know what to do with.

steamboat26
Aug 25, 2006, 10:42 PM
the other thing is that bill gates is going to give away almost all of his money when he dies. I think that 0.1% or some really small number like that will go to each one of his kids (which is still a nice chunk of change), and the rest will go to charity.

ghall
Aug 26, 2006, 10:03 AM
the other thing is that bill gates is going to give away almost all of his money when he dies. I think that 0.1% or some really small number like that will go to each one of his kids (which is still a nice chunk of change), and the rest will go to charity.

That's like 6 billion to each of his kids (assuming I did the math right).

IJ Reilly
Aug 26, 2006, 10:56 AM
the other thing is that bill gates is going to give away almost all of his money when he dies.

You mean, he wasn't planning on taking it with him? ;)

TedSlawski
Aug 26, 2006, 11:18 AM
I think that as opposed to Dell offering a low end loss leader Apple is offering a high end loss leader. The 2,66MHz Mac Pro, according to many things I've read, has a price that comes close to the price of the parts. That's the reason for the "low end" video card, just modifying the enclosure, no second optical drive, a smallish SATA hard drive, 1gig of RAM. It's all the bare minimum to get 2-dual core Xeon processors in an Apple box for $2500. It runs Windows, so a lot of hard core Window's gamers will grab one (according to some people they alteady are) and up the video card, lots of small operations that need a lot of horse power will look closely at this. Have you checked the SETI scores? the smattering of Macs has turned into almost solid Macs at the top. So ole Steveo breaks even or loses a little on the 2.66, the machine with the best price point and increases market share by a little, 'cause all those peopel are probably going to mess around with the OS and be sold on what a great box this is, even if their primary use is Windows.
I don't think Apple is after Dell, just a few percent of market share, which over the long run is a large pile of cash. It's kinda like the cheap Porche that was sold in the US a few years back, how many of those peopel went back to driving a VW when it was time to trade and the cheapo was no longer available? Anyway, this is a screamin' deal, you're not likely to see again, grab one! When the 8 processor machines come out in the new enclosure we'll be back to the old price structure with a medioce machine, like the single 1.8GHz G5 tower, three years ago. If the dual 1.8 had been in the first lineup, I wouldn't have waited for the 2Gig and shelled out another $600, would you?

IJ Reilly
Aug 26, 2006, 11:38 AM
I was with you right up to the last couple of sentences. I don't think Apple will be going back, as you suggest. They have to hang tough with the PC market and offer the latest-and-greatest Intel processors in Apple boxes at competitive prices. Unlike the days when the processors families were so different, and x86-PPC performance claims could be made and not completely verified, Apple's hardware now has to go right up against everybody else in Windows World or suffer in the comparison. Apple can compete with Dell in the high-end market, where the margins are better I expect, but not in the low end, where hardly any money is to be made anyway.

TedSlawski
Aug 26, 2006, 12:09 PM
Boy I hope you're right but I don't see what they can do without dropping quality. The PC compainies, with their "of-the-shelf" cases, MLB's etc. are going to be cheaper than a custom machined aluminum (or plastic, for that matter) enclosure and a made to order MLB and attention to acoustic detail, high RAM specs (the list goes on) every time. Yet Dell wants, I think, $3100 for the same config. and that is using off the shelf PC parts. If they added the price of the Apple enclosure to their cost, it would go way up. So my point was that Apple is intentionally losing money on this machine. Porshe doesn't need to compete with the Ford Mustang, It just offers a car once that the upper income Mustang driver can afford. A lot of them will buy the Porche and some of them will go back to Ford when the price goes up and some will stay with Porshe, as they anticipated. I don't want Apple to downgrade it's stuff to try to get a 50% market share. Jobs once said (keeping the car analogy) that Apple had the same market share as BMW and that was fine with him. I think this is a move to show the Camry drivers a BMW. I'm sure they will keep prices as low as they can to keep the twice as expensive as a pc myth busted but I think they will move to the point where a comparable high end machine like the $3100 Dell dual Xeon is not a hell of a lot cheaper than a Mac (if at all). I think they will move closer to the Dell price and make a decent profit on a high end machine, once they've made their point by dramatically under pricing this machine. Who would have noticed if these machines were the same price as Dell, nobody, 'cause they wouldn't check Dell's prices for a machine like this, they would make the assumption that Apple was over-priced. This pricing woke a lot of people up, I don't think they need to keep this kind of price differential once they've got the attention of their intended new audience.

IJ Reilly
Aug 26, 2006, 12:26 PM
Could be, but I've never seen Apple do the loss-leader thing before. They've always been very protective of their margins, which have long been the envy of the industry. One thing is certain, it will be very interesting to watch this going forward.

TedSlawski
Aug 26, 2006, 12:44 PM
I truthfully expected a single dual core Conroe at about this speed as the middle choice and was fully prepared to shell out the $2500 middle machine (had arranged my trade in before they were even announced) price for it and was quite joyfully shocked to see a dual Xeon box as the middle machine. I have never been so pleasantly suprised by Apple in my life. Went the other way a few times, bought a IIvx right before the Quadras came out, ordered the non existant 500mhz dual G4 etc. So, if they have found the secret to exceeding their customers expectations, right on! and my stock portfolio thanks them as well, almost sold it at the bottom right before Steve came back but figured, it's only money, I'll wait a bit and see what the 'ole Job's magic brings; apparantly a lot!

golferjh3
Aug 26, 2006, 12:49 PM
No, not really.

dukebound85
Aug 26, 2006, 07:38 PM
Dear dukebound

Apparently, my instincts that Gates' "charity" is nothing of the sort are right. He's propping up old media -- a distinctly NON charitable enterprise -- by buying up newspapers with his money.

Made today's front page of DRUDGE: http://www.drudgereport.com/flashbg.htm

DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN AUG 20, 2006 16:01:02 ET XXXXX

BILL GATES "CHARITY" FOUNDATION FINANCES NEWSPAPER PURCHASES

The BILL & MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION declares its noble mission is to bring "innovations in health and learning to the global community."

But the world's largest philanthropic organization also is among the organizations that collectively loaned nearly $400 million to MEDIANEWS GROUP INC. -- for the acquisition of newspapers in California and Minnesota!

"I thought this foundation was all about starving kids, not starving newspapers," mocked one Seattle insider.

MORE

The GATES FOUNDATION loaned an unspecified amount to MEDIANEWS, along with GENERAL ELECTRIC.

In April, MEDIANEWS agreed to buy four newspapers, including the SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS and CONTRA COSTA TIMES, from MCCLATCHY CO. for $1 billion. MEDIANEWS also bought California's MONTEREY COUNTY HERALD and the ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS in Minnesota. It also own the DENVER POST.

The move into funding media acquisitions was unusual for the BILL & MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION, whose donations usually go to health and anti-poverty purposes.

In June, financier Warren Buffett announced he would donate an estimated $31 billion to the GATES FOUNDATION, bringing its total endowment to more than $60 billion -- which could easily save every newspaper in America!

Developing...

I don't really care anymore or have cared about you trying to prove me wrong so you are not going to change my perception about this matter.

This little thing on the foundation buying newspapers hardly questions my beliefs on his charity. Maybe there are clauses that these papers fund the foundation and help find more sponsors. Who knows. HOWEVER, you are presenting only one side of the arguement and that is pretty bad....present both sides of the intentions of the foundation and then report back. No more of this really biased stuff you just posted.

What you just did is just like trying to get an opinion about America from the view of lets say Iran at the moment. Hilarious, just hilarious

waynesun
Aug 28, 2006, 04:39 PM
Still seems like a long time off. I was over at the WinCustomize.com forums today (from Googling icons for my ObjectDock :D) and there were a lot of WinXP fanboys there. One guy was complaining about his experience with his OSX 10.4, which was obviously full of BS. Guess they can't get over the sluggishness and delay of Vista. There are always Ubuntu and hardcore Linux users, though. I know lots of people who still think "Macs Suck". It's a cool thought, but apple's still got a long way to go for world control.