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tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 11:37 AM
Yes, I'm returning it. The SATA speed under Windows XP is horrible. I'm not sure if they will ever find a way to fix it. Yes, they probably will... but I can't take that risk. Oh, but I bought a mac... why do I care about Windows XP you ask? Well, I bought a $2500 machine hoping it could replace my PC's also. I NEED to have Windows PC's. It's just a fact. I need it for my work, I need it for games, I will always need a PC more than I 'need' a mac. I have a Kodak i160 scanner that seems to have absolutely no Apple support. It's a firewire device, so even Parallels (when they fix it to run on a Mac Pro) will not work, they only seem to deal with using USB devices inside virtual machines. I love using OSX and I love Macs but unfortunately the Mac Pro, at this time, isn't fitting my need.

Some other observations..

I had my 7800 GTX in there so I could play games in Windows XP. While that worked great, the card got REALLY hot. I mean REALLY hot. It's probably because Apple doesn't expect people to use their systems this way. The faster video cards they sell are double wide with the fans on the cards routing air directly out of the case. The 7800 GTX doesn't have this.

Had problems installing non-windows OS's (Linux specifically). Probably related to EFI/CSM. Not sure I'll ever need a non-windows/Apple OS on the machine, but I want to have that available for me in the future. And in the future, maybe Apple will make the Mac Pro more compatible. For now, and I should have known, it's not.

All in all, if you just want to run OSX on a Mac Pro, it works great... right now. If you want Windows... it will work, but poorly. If you want another OS, well... either hope the OS decides to support the Mac Pro or hope Apple makes the Mac Pro more compatible and friendly to other OS's.

The Mac Pro is a wonderful Apple Macintosh product, but it's not a great all around PC. Yes someday maybe this Mac Pro will "do windows too", as the Apple slogan states and they are marketing so strongly, but that day is not today.

So for all of you who want to use the Mac Pro as your primary desktop to run OSX and Windows, primary machine to do everything on, the Mac Pro it is not the answer right now.



mmmcheese
Aug 18, 2006, 11:48 AM
...Had problems installing non-windows OS's (Linux specifically). Probably related to EFI/CSM. Not sure I'll ever need a non-windows/Apple OS on the machine, but I want to have that available for me in the future. And in the future, maybe Apple will make the Mac Pro more compatible. For now, and I should have known, it's not.
...

Did you use the proper boot loader?

http://elilo.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/blosxom

Linux has run on Intel based Macs for quote a while (long before anyone got Windows working on those machines...Jan 25th according to this: http://forum.insanelymac.com/lofiversion/index.php/t7705.html).

As for SATA speeds, I'm sure there will be driver fixes soon, if they aren't out already with Bootcamp 1.1.

But each to their own.

Bubbasteve
Aug 18, 2006, 11:48 AM
So for all of you who want to use the Mac Pro as your primary desktop to run OSX and Windows, primary machine to do everything on, the Mac Pro it is not the answer right now.

I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience with your Mac Pro. Instead of returning it why don't you hold out for Leopard since it will have the "real" boot camp included in that software.

jsw
Aug 18, 2006, 11:49 AM
I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience with your Mac Pro. Instead of returning it why don't you hold out for Leopard since they will have the "real" boot camp included in that software.
It would make far more sense to return it and then, if Leopard fixes the issues and the OP still wants a Mac, to buy a new one next spring, at least IMHO.

macenforcer
Aug 18, 2006, 12:07 PM
I don't understand this logic. I installed a pata drive under my superdrive and put xp on it and its plenty fast... fastest I have ever run windows infact.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:16 PM
Did you use the proper boot loader?

http://elilo.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/blosxom

Linux has run on Intel based Macs for quote a while (long before anyone got Windows working on those machines...Jan 25th according to this: http://forum.insanelymac.com/lofiversion/index.php/t7705.html).

As for SATA speeds, I'm sure there will be driver fixes soon, if they aren't out already with Bootcamp 1.1.

But each to their own.

I couldn't even get it installed, let alone deal with the boot loader. Suse 10.1 wouldn't find the CD media. It booted, started the install, then crapped out saying it couldn't find my install media. I believe it has to do with the new chipset and drivers not necessarily being available, or actually more likely the way the CSM is presenting the PATA/SATA channels to the OS when running in bios emulation mode.

Go read this post for more info: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=225349

I don't understand this logic. I installed a pata drive under my superdrive and put xp on it and its plenty fast... fastest I have ever run windows infact.

Are you sure it's fast? What DMA mode is it in? Go to http://www.hdtune.com and download that. It will tell you. In my experience, if I put the HD as 'master', I could get UDMA 5 speeds. This was fast, but not as fast as it should be or as fast as SATA would be. If I put the HD in as 'slave' I would get UDMA0, which was not fast. If I put the HD on 'master' and the optical drive on 'slave', oSX would no longer eject the tray by hitting the 'eject' key.

It's little inconsistencies like this that have pushed me towards returning the Mac Pro.

The Mac Pro is a great computer. I like it a lot. Unfortunately for my needs it just doesn't fit. I'm sharing my experiences just so others who may have thought about doing the same sort of thing will understand the possible issues with going down this path without having to spend the $250 in restocking fees as I will have to.

Spanky Deluxe
Aug 18, 2006, 12:21 PM
I'm sorry to hear that it won't do for now. Its understandable if you need top performance in Windows right now.
If you bought it from a store, maybe you could say on here when you're taking it back and to which store, maybe someone else will be interested in knowing that a store will be getting one in straight away (I don't know about Mac Pro availability in stores).

TBi
Aug 18, 2006, 12:21 PM
I heard that the drive it comes with is actually slow. Not the mac itself. I remember reading about it on barefeats or xlr8yourmac. You should try a second SATA drive and see what happens.

I'd say return it because it's probably just as slow in windows.

Unless of course you didn't turn DMA on, people are reporting that DMA is turned off by default but you can turn it on.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:23 PM
I heard that the drive it comes with is actually slow. Not the mac itself. I remember reading about it on barefeats or xlr8yourmac. You should try a second SATA drive and see what happens.

I'd say return it because it's probably just as slow in windows.

Unless of course you didn't turn DMA on, people are reporting that DMA is turned off by default but you can turn it on.

Do some more research. Check the SATA threads here. I've tried multiple drives. It's fast in OSX, just slow in Windows. DMA can't be turned back on at this point. Like I said, check the other SATA threads here.

mmmcheese
Aug 18, 2006, 12:25 PM
I couldn't even get it installed, let alone deal with the boot loader. Suse 10.1 wouldn't find the CD media. It booted, started the install, then crapped out saying it couldn't find my install media. ...

Did you use a distro with official support for EFI, or did you just pick a random one that you used on another PC? Fedora has an official release, but I'm not sure who else.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:26 PM
I'm sorry to hear that it won't do for now. Its understandable if you need top performance in Windows right now.
If you bought it from a store, maybe you could say on here when you're taking it back and to which store, maybe someone else will be interested in knowing that a store will be getting one in straight away (I don't know about Mac Pro availability in stores).

I'll be returning it to the Old Orchard Apple store in Skokie, tomorrow probably. They will end up selling it as a 'refresh' item so someone will probably get 10% off. I'm not sure what the turnaround is before they resell a returned item, since they will have to reload it and check it out before reselling it.

G5isAlive
Aug 18, 2006, 12:28 PM
The Mac Pro is a wonderful Apple Macintosh product, but it's not a great all around PC. Yes someday maybe this Mac Pro will "do windows too", as the Apple slogan states and they are marketing so strongly, but that day is not today.

So for all of you who want to use the Mac Pro as your primary desktop to run OSX and Windows, primary machine to do everything on, the Mac Pro it is not the answer right now.

I appreciate this is true for you, but I do not agree that it is true all around. I loaded Windows XP Pro with boot camp 1.1 and while I have not bench marked it with artificial tests, I can say that the feel of it running a wide variety of windows apps and games is very very fast and snappy. Of course, I also have 2 Gb of ram in it.

Even my sons, who are very picky gamers, say it screams in Windows.

I won't be returning mine. And it is used to run both Windows and OS X.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:29 PM
Did you use a distro with official support for EFI, or did you just pick a random one that you used on another PC? Fedora has an official release, but I'm not sure who else.

I tried SUSE 10.1. EFI support shouldn't be the issue because the CSM should be doing bios emulation at that point. And like I said, to me it looked more like drivers. Suse couldn't find my optical drive, most likely related to the way the CSM is presenting the PATA/SATA channels to the OS.

But that does go back to my point... either you wait for Apple to make the Mac Pro more compatible with other OS's or you find other OS's that are more compatible with the Mac Pro. Either way, for me, that's just not a great solution. I don't want to be limited in my choices. As the Apple commercial states, the Mac Pro is a "PC"... but only to a point. It's a very limited "PC".

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:32 PM
I appreciate this is true for you, but I do not agree that it is true all around. I loaded Windows XP Pro with boot camp 1.1 and while I have not bench marked it with artificial tests, I can say that the feel of it running a wide variety of windows apps and games is very very fast and snappy. Of course, I also have 2 Gb of ram in it.

Even my sons, who are very picky gamers, say it screams in Windows.

I won't be returning mine. And it is used to run both Windows and OS X.

Perhaps you and your sons aren't as picky as I am. But when I copied 30GB of photos from my server to the local HD, it took FOREVER. Try running http://www.hdtune.com and check your results. My notebook HD gets 35MB/s, which is slow. The Mac Pro with a SATA drive gets 3.5MB/s, which is horrible.

Once the data is spooled from the drive and the machine is just processing, such as with games, the speed is good. But HD performance is pathetic.

Our perceptions of 'screams' seem to differ.

CyberPrey
Aug 18, 2006, 12:36 PM
I had my 7800 GTX in there so I could play games in Windows XP. While that worked great, the card got REALLY hot. I mean REALLY hot. It's probably because Apple doesn't expect people to use their systems this way. The faster video cards they sell are double wide with the fans on the cards routing air directly out of the case. The 7800 GTX doesn't have this.

Actually, it depends on what model you buy...

Asus EN7800GTX256 and EN7800TX512 have the double width cooling system on them.. nice copper heatsink and fan.

I'm running one of mine in windows, and it runs pretty well....

although... I can't argue on the hard drive speed... thats the major part that suxxors....

I bought my Mac Pro for the same reason... To have a Mac OS-X machine, and to replace my windows rig. I'm not to worried though, as I can wait for the fix on the SATA drives to come out...

RacerX
Aug 18, 2006, 12:36 PM
Some other observations..You may want to also note that Windows is not supported by Apple on Macs... and that Boot Camp is beta software. So if you were looking to buy a Windows PC, then you bought the wrong system.

Not sure why you wanted to start a thread about it, but best of luck with your next system (which I'm sure you'll double check to make sure it actually supports Windows).

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:39 PM
Actually, it depends on what model you buy...

Asus EN7800GTX256 and EN7800TX512 have the double width cooling system on them.. nice copper heatsink and fan.

I'm running one of mine in windows, and it runs pretty well....

although... I can't argue on the hard drive speed... thats the major part that suxxors....

I bought my Mac Pro for the same reason... To have a Mac OS-X machine, and to replace my windows rig. I'm not to worried though, as I can wait for the fix on the SATA drives to come out...

I have an older EVGA 7800GTX. It's a single slot solution.

For me, I am worried.. and a $2500 investment at this time scares me to not know if things will work. The poster above had a good idea. Wait for Leopard. By that time, Leopard will come with the machine. So while i'm paying $250 to return it, I won't have to spend $129 on a new OS at a later date anyway.

CyberPrey
Aug 18, 2006, 12:39 PM
Very true.

jsw
Aug 18, 2006, 12:39 PM
tobyg, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. You have needs and expectations that this system didn't meet. I hope you don't feel the need to defend your decision to return it. Obviously, if there was some simple fix that would solve your issues, I'm sure you'd be glad to hear it and save the 10% restocking fee (unless you can get that waived), but since that seems unlikely, best of luck with your return, and I hope you consider coming back in the future once these problems have been resolved.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:43 PM
You may want to also note that Windows is not supported by Apple on Macs... and that Boot Camp is beta software. So if you were looking to buy a Windows PC, then you bought the wrong system.

Not sure why you wanted to start a thread about it, but best of luck with your next system (which I'm sure you'll double check to make sure it actually supports Windows).

Yep, it's not supported. I'm well aware of that fact. Although the Apple commercials seem to market it as if it is. The success of Bootcamp and Parallels on the other Intel based Macs so far has been very positive from what I've seen and used even myself. And because it's not officially supported yet, I can't guarantee it will ever work as I hope.

And as far as supporting windows.. Did you watch the latest keynote? Bootcamp will be included with Leopard. Windows will be supported.

You don't understand why I started a thread about it? I posted that several times. To let people know my experience, to let people who like me may have wanted to consolidate and run one machine for both Windows and Mac know that right now, the Mac Pro is not the answer.

TBi
Aug 18, 2006, 12:43 PM
Do some more research. Check the SATA threads here. I've tried multiple drives. It's fast in OSX, just slow in Windows. DMA can't be turned back on at this point. Like I said, check the other SATA threads here.

Actually i just checked the other threads there. I think the people posting there are wrong in a way. Intel has never in the past needed a floppy disk to enable native SATA mode in windows. It only uses a driver you install through windows to increase the functionality of the base driver.

Now the Mac Pro is a new system with a new chipset so i checked on Dell. They don't have a downloadable floppy SATA disk for their woodcrest computers so i'm guessing it doesn't need one. Hence the Mac shouldn't either.

You'd be better off downloading all the chipset drivers from Intel and installing them before you send off your lovely new machine.

EDIT: Well it seems this is a problem all right. I'll say we'll hear something about it soon though. A lot of professionals want XP on their machine.

eenu
Aug 18, 2006, 12:46 PM
I heard that the drive it comes with is actually slow. Not the mac itself. I remember reading about it on barefeats or xlr8yourmac. You should try a second SATA drive and see what happens.

I'd say return it because it's probably just as slow in windows.

Unless of course you didn't turn DMA on, people are reporting that DMA is turned off by default but you can turn it on.

From what i see they are WD .9s! They are dam fast disks! I have them in a PC here

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:46 PM
tobyg, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. You have needs and expectations that this system didn't meet. I hope you don't feel the need to defend your decision to return it. Obviously, if there was some simple fix that would solve your issues, I'm sure you'd be glad to hear it and save the 10% restocking fee (unless you can get that waived), but since that seems unlikely, best of luck with your return, and I hope you consider coming back in the future once these problems have been resolved.

Thanks jsw... and your solution regarding returning now and waiting for Leopard makes the most sense. Cost wise, I'd only be out about $120, if you factor in the cost of keeping the machine now and buying Leopard at a later date anyway.

I'm not going to even argue waiving the restocking fee. The apple 'geniuses' at the store won't understand DMA/PIO talk anyway.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:51 PM
Actually i just checked the other threads there. I think the people posting there are wrong in a way. Intel has never in the past needed a floppy disk to enable native SATA mode in windows. It only uses a driver you install through windows to increase the functionality of the base driver.

Now the Mac Pro is a new system with a new chipset so i checked on Dell. They don't have a downloadable floppy SATA disk for their woodcrest computers so i'm guessing it doesn't need one. Hence the Mac shouldn't either.

You'd be better off downloading all the chipset drivers from Intel and installing them before you send off your lovely new machine.

Please read the threads again. Chipset drivers were installed. Thanks but guessing isn't needed. Many people have worked on this, many people have had the same issues, nobody has had success yet.

CyberPrey
Aug 18, 2006, 12:52 PM
[QUOTE=TBi]
You'd be better off downloading all the chipset drivers from Intel and installing them before you send off your lovely new machine.
[QUOTE]

Actually, I am pretty sure most of us have tried this... The apple drivers on bootcamp are actually a tad bit better than the ones you get straight from Intel... At least for the moment(?)

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE=TBi]
You'd be better off downloading all the chipset drivers from Intel and installing them before you send off your lovely new machine.
[QUOTE]

Actually, I am pretty sure most of us have tried this... The apple drivers on bootcamp are actually a tad bit better than the ones you get straight from Intel... At least for the moment(?)


The apple drivers that come with Bootcamp are actually the older version. They are version 7.4. I tried the latest, 8.1.1.1001 I believe, and they didn't help. If you read the threads, everyone is reasonably certain drivers aren't going to help and that it will require a change in the firmware.

Bubbasteve
Aug 18, 2006, 01:24 PM
It would make far more sense to return it and then, if Leopard fixes the issues and the OP still wants a Mac, to buy a new one next spring, at least IMHO.
I suppose that would be the smarter thing to do

RacerX
Aug 18, 2006, 01:28 PM
You don't understand why I started a thread about it? I posted that several times. To let people know my experience, to let people who like me may have wanted to consolidate and run one machine for both Windows and Mac know that right now, the Mac Pro is not the answer.Well, let start by making sure you don't make the same mistake in the future...

And as far as supporting windows.. Did you watch the latest keynote? Bootcamp will be included with Leopard. Windows will be supported.Including Boot Camp is not the same as supporting Windows. Until Apple starts supplying a copy of Windows with their hardware, they are under no obligation to support Windows. If you want better Mac support from Windows... call Microsoft, because that is who supplied you with Windows and not Apple.

So I strongly suggest that unless you are buying a Mac as a Mac, you should stick with PCs... that you know support Windows. :D

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 01:37 PM
Well, let start by making sure you don't make the same mistake in the future...

Including Boot Camp is not the same as supporting Windows. Until Apple starts supplying a copy of Windows with their hardware, they are under no obligation to support Windows. If you want better Mac support from Windows... call Microsoft, because that is who supplied you with Windows and not Apple.

So I strongly suggest that unless you are buying a Mac as a Mac, you should stick with PCs... that you know support Windows. :D

Theres no need to be mean about anything here. I'm just informing people of my experience. That's what forums are for.

And please enlighten me the use of Bootcamp if its purpose is not to allow Windows to be installed on Macs.

From http://www.apple.com/bootcamp

Boot Camp lets you install Windows XP without moving your Mac data, though you will need to bring your own copy to the table, as Apple Computer does not sell or support Microsoft Windows.(1) Boot Camp will burn a CD of all the required drivers for Windows so you don't have to scrounge around the Internet looking for them.

Maybe you are mistaking my reference to 'supporting' windows. No, they don't sell Windows nor support the Windows operating system. The goal of Bootcamp, however, is to support the installation of Windows XP on your Mac.

I don't need 'support' for Windows... I need 'support' installing Windows on my Mac. Please understand the difference.

MacProGuy
Aug 18, 2006, 01:54 PM
Theres no need to be mean about anything here. I'm just informing people of my experience. That's what forums are for.

And please enlighten me the use of Bootcamp if its purpose is not to allow Windows to be installed on Macs.

From http://www.apple.com/bootcamp

Boot Camp lets you install Windows XP without moving your Mac data, though you will need to bring your own copy to the table, as Apple Computer does not sell or support Microsoft Windows.(1) Boot Camp will burn a CD of all the required drivers for Windows so you don't have to scrounge around the Internet looking for them.

Maybe you are mistaking my reference to 'supporting' windows. No, they don't sell Windows nor support the Windows operating system. The goal of Bootcamp, however, is to support the installation of Windows XP on your Mac.

I don't need 'support' for Windows... I need 'support' installing Windows on my Mac. Please understand the difference.

I feel your pain. I returned mine last night. I've wanted a new Mac for a looooooooooooong time...

But I need Windows.

Apple really screwed the pooch on this one. I LOST $2000 by selling my gaming PeeCee for NOTHING on Ebay... with the understanding that their website said that I could dual boot.

Now, I've bought a Dell to replace it for Games.

I didn't want to... but it just wasn't a solution I was comfortable with.

AND NOW... I don't have the money to buy a Mac Pro when they fix these issues, if ever.

They lost a "market share" point with me... just yesterday.

jeremy.king
Aug 18, 2006, 02:09 PM
I don't need 'support' for Windows... I need 'support' installing Windows on my Mac. Please understand the difference.

But you installed Windows just fine :confused: Just because its not running fast enough for your liking, doesn't mean they didn't 'support' installing Windows on your MacPro - understand the difference.

jeremy.king
Aug 18, 2006, 02:10 PM
Apple really screwed the pooch on this one. I LOST $2000 by selling my gaming PeeCee for NOTHING on Ebay... with the understanding that their website said that I could dual boot.


And you can't?

timb
Aug 18, 2006, 02:12 PM
I feel your pain. I returned mine last night. I've wanted a new Mac for a looooooooooooong time...

But I need Windows.

Apple really screwed the pooch on this one. I LOST $2000 by selling my gaming PeeCee for NOTHING on Ebay... with the understanding that their website said that I could dual boot.

Now, I've bought a Dell to replace it for Games.

I didn't want to... but it just wasn't a solution I was comfortable with.

AND NOW... I don't have the money to buy a Mac Pro when they fix these issues, if ever.

They lost a "market share" point with me... just yesterday.

Their website also said Boot Camp was in BETA.

These units were JUST released, Apple will fix the SATA issues, give it some time, sheesh.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 02:21 PM
But you installed Windows just fine :confused: Just because its not running fast enough for your liking, doesn't mean they didn't 'support' installing Windows on your MacPro - understand the difference.

I'm not going to argue the semantics here. Yes it's installed. Is it usable? No, not with these hard drive speeds. If it's not going to be usable, what is the point of intalling it? And it's not just my liking, read around. Anyone who actually uses their computer will quickly realize the speeds are not acceptable.

It's a great Mac, it's just not a great "PC". Not now, at least. Understand what I'm saying. If you never intend on using your Mac Pro for a Windows machine, move along. This thread is a host of my experience trying to replace a PC with a Mac Pro to be able to live in the "PC" and Mac world with just one piece of hardware.

jrk07
Aug 18, 2006, 02:40 PM
This thread is a prime example of why I can't respect these forums as much as I would like to.

The original poster has explained time and time again why HE needs to return his Mac Pro, yet by the look of many responses you would think he had badmouthed the Mac Pro harshly. People respond as if they are offended by the fact that he isn't satisfied with a certain performance issue and just can't get the fact that somebody wouldn't be satisfied.

I'd like to thank the OP for the issue that he brought up because I have been contemplating a Mac Pro and would like to be aware of as many issues (no matter how big or small they are) before I decide to get one. I'm sure apple will fix this hard drive speed issue (just like the OP said) and it will be fine, but if you need a system now, you need it now and I understand him returning it.

sirnh
Aug 18, 2006, 02:43 PM
I'm not going to argue the semantics here. Yes it's installed. Is it usable? No, not with these hard drive speeds. If it's not going to be usable, what is the point of intalling it? And it's not just my liking, read around. Anyone who actually uses their computer will quickly realize the speeds are not acceptable.

It's a great Mac, it's just not a great "PC". Not now, at least. Understand what I'm saying. If you never intend on using your Mac Pro for a Windows machine, move along. This thread is a host of my experience trying to replace a PC with a Mac Pro to be able to live in the "PC" and Mac world with just one piece of hardware.

I sympathize with Toby. If you are interested in the Mac Pro because, at least according to specs, it should be the best cross-platform computer around for the price, you will be surprised at its lack of overall performance mainly limited to the sata issue.

It's hard for me knowing that my Mac Book 1.83 can do many things faster than my Mac Pro, simply because of the hard disk.

BUT, at the same time, I know Apple will increase the performance. But I also know they will most likely fix it the easiest way possible, enabling DMA in their PATA emulation.

Will the speed be good enough for me? Probably. If I were someone who planned on running a large database, audio or video editing on the Windows side, I might want to consider a different PC, instead, like the HP 8400.

BUT, at the same time, you could do all of those things with OS X compatible apps, and have the full performance you expect.

If I ran a popular gaming web blog right now, though, I would be quick to post an article about why the Mac Pro is currently a bad choice, even if they had access to an ATI 1900X. Gaming is really the only thing that Windows does better over OS X, these days, and this SATA issue affects them as well.

RacerX
Aug 18, 2006, 02:53 PM
Theres no need to be mean about anything here. I'm just informing people of my experience. That's what forums are for.Not being mean... just factual. If it sounds mean, well, I'm not sure how else to put this stuff.

Would you rather I try and talk you out of sending it back? I'm trying to help you not make the same mistake twice.

How much nicer can I get? ;)

And please enlighten me the use of Bootcamp if its purpose is not to allow Windows to be installed on Macs...

Maybe you are mistaking my reference to 'supporting' windows. No, they don't sell Windows nor support the Windows operating system. The goal of Bootcamp, however, is to support the installation of Windows XP on your Mac.I suggest changing the word "support" to "allows" in that last line, as in "Boot Camp allows the installation of Windows XP on your Mac."

What is Boot Camp for?

Easy... to keep people from toasting their Macs trying to get them to run Windows on them. In the months before Boot Camp, people were attempting to hack their Macs firmware to make them run Windows. This produced a ton of dead Macs that could neither run Windows or Mac OS X.

Boot Camp was put out to keep people from attempting a hack that, if not done exactly right, seriously damaged people's systems.

Parallels is the Apple recommended way of running Windows on your Intel-based Mac.

:rolleyes:


Quick question... If I buy a computer (a PC) that came with Windows pre-installed and I installed Linux or Solaris on it, who is responsible for the usability of that system? Is it the hardware maker or the maker of the OS?

By what you are saying here, if Solaris on a Dell doesn't run as good as Solaris on a Sun, then Dell should fix the problem (and not Sun).

Is this the logic you are following? :confused:

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:00 PM
Quick question... If I buy a computer (a PC) that came with Windows pre-installed and I installed Linux or Solaris on it, who is responsible for the usability of that system? Is it the hardware maker or the maker of the OS?

By what you are saying here, if Solaris on a Dell doesn't run as good as Solaris on a Sun, then Dell should fix the problem (and not Sun).

Is this the logic you are following? :confused:

If the maker of the PC you buy 'supports' the operating system you are installing by supplying drivers for those alternate OS's, it is up to the maker of the PC to fix their drivers. Otherwise, they can't really claim their system will run that operating system. Apple claims their systems "do windows too". It's right there in the commercials and on the bootcamp site. They should then in turn supply the proper drivers to allow that operating system to function properly. Currently, it does not function properly.

By the way, this is my final reponse to you RacerX. It's pretty obvious we aren't going to agree on this.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:06 PM
jrk07 and sirnoh,

Thanks. You understand my point of this post. I'm not here to argue the fact that I bought a Mac and not a Windows machine. Duh. But I bought a Mac that, on paper, looks like an awesome Windows PC too, on paper at least. My post is just to inform others who may look at the specs and even though it has Intel CPU's inside and Apple claims "does Windows too...", currently it doesn't run Windows very well. There are a LOT of others out there like me who wanted to have the best of both worlds and, right now, the Mac Pro doesn't fulfill that need.

sirnh
Aug 18, 2006, 03:08 PM
Quick question... If I buy a computer (a PC) that came with Windows pre-installed and I installed Linux or Solaris on it, who is responsible for the usability of that system? Is it the hardware maker or the maker of the OS?

By what you are saying here, if Solaris on a Dell doesn't run as good as Solaris on a Sun, then Dell should fix the problem (and not Sun).

Is this the logic you are following? :confused:

Actually, in this particular example, if Dell's BIOS specifically prohibited Solaris from running properly, Sun would have to hack their Kernel to work around the BIOS issue, which I doubt they would be willing to do.

But at the same time, you are correct, Dell has no obligation to support Solaris.

The real answer is, if you want to run Solaris, you buy a different machine that specifies and advertises that it is Solaris compatible.

Apple is in a grey area here. They are the first manufacturer that I know of who is marketing their machine as Windows capable, with Boot Camp, but who say they do not support Windows. There is nothing wrong with that, really, just as long as they are willing to accept a higher return rate from Windows users who were willing to make the move over to the Apple platform.

If Boot Camp shipped in Leopard with this issue, then I would say that Apple is entirely responsible. Right now, considering Boot Camp is beta software, the responsibility lies with the end user.

The Inevitable
Aug 18, 2006, 03:11 PM
Have you (or someone else) tried using a FW800 external drive enclosure with a HD that has Windows on it and booting off of that? The theoretical max bandwidth is much higher than most HDs can deliver, so I'd imagine that it would perform well enough for your needs until Apple fixes the DMA issue.

sirnh
Aug 18, 2006, 03:11 PM
There are a LOT of others out there like me who wanted to have the best of both worlds and, right now, the Mac Pro doesn't fulfill that need.

Toby,

Right now my Windows partition is just sitting there with the Windows updates installed. I dare not install anything until this issue is resolved. Until then, I will continue to use my old 3.2GHz P4 with hyperthreading...

JNaut
Aug 18, 2006, 03:13 PM
jrk07 and sirnoh,

Thanks. You understand my point of this post. I'm not here to argue the fact that I bought a Mac and not a Windows machine. Duh. But I bought a Mac that, on paper, looks like an awesome Windows PC too, on paper at least. My post is just to inform others who may look at the specs and even though it has Intel CPU's inside and Apple claims "does Windows too...", currently it doesn't run Windows very well. There are a LOT of others out there like me who wanted to have the best of both worlds and, right now, the Mac Pro doesn't fulfill that need.

I'm pretty much in this same situation. Your post got me thinking about returning my Mac Pro, building a Core 2 Duo Windows system for gaming, and grabbing a Conroe/Merom Mac mini (when available) to satisfy my day-to-day browsing and work needs. I could probably do that for well under the cost of the Mac Pro, considering I already have most of the PC components.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:14 PM
Actually, in this particular example, if Dell's BIOS specifically prohibited Solaris from running properly, Sun would have to hack their Kernel to work around the BIOS issue, which I doubt they would be willing to do.

But at the same time, you are correct, Dell has no obligation to support Solaris.

The real answer is, if you want to run Solaris, you buy a different machine that specifies and advertises that it is Solaris compatible.

Apple is in a grey area here. They are the first manufacturer that I know of who is marketing their machine as Windows capable, with Boot Camp, but who say they do not support Windows. There is nothing wrong with that, really, just as long as they are willing to accept a higher return rate from Windows users who were willing to make the move over to the Apple platform.

If Boot Camp shipped in Leopard with this issue, then I would say that Apple is entirely responsible. Right now, considering Boot Camp is beta software, the responsibility lies with the end user.

And I bought it fully understanding that. I hope they do support Windows in the long run. For now, I will return mine and pay the restocking fee. No problem.

And like I said. If Dell sold PC's saying they support Solaris, it's up to them to supply the drivers. If dell doesn't sell PC's that say they support Solaris but Solaris said their software works on a Dell machine, then it would be up to Solaris to supply the drivers or fixes to make the software work. Apple doesn't sell Windows, but they claim their machines run Windows with Bootcamp. Then it becomes up to Apple to supply the drivers.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:15 PM
Have you (or someone else) tried using a FW800 external drive enclosure with a HD that has Windows on it and booting off of that? The theoretical max bandwidth is much higher than most HDs can deliver, so I'd imagine that it would perform well enough for your needs until Apple fixes the DMA issue.

I've never heard of being able to boot Windows off of a firewire drive. Supposedly you can hack at it and boot off of USB, but that is not a path I'm going to go down. You have to intermix SP1 USB drivers with SP2 or something crazy. I didn't read all of the details, but it's definitely not something I want to do.

MacProGuy
Aug 18, 2006, 03:22 PM
And you can't?


Please. Are we really arguing Semantics.

Let's say that you bought a big 4x4 truck... with the ability to "run" in two "environments"...

One was regular roads, which you could run 150+MPH no problem.

The other was offroad.

Now, no manufacturer will NOT SUPPORT you going offroad... however, they let you know that it's the ONLY Car that lets you go offroad AND run 150+MPH on regular roads.

Only, you buy it... and find out that.. yes, you technically CAN go offroading in it... but only at 5MPH because of some sort of mechnical glitch that they didn't catch in testing.

You'd return the car, right?

Why is that so difficult to understand. Knowing that many gamers/pros were WAITING for this to come out... they should not have released the Mac Pro without this being ready to rock.

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:22 PM
i'll never understand what goes on in some of your heads sometimes. the thing has been out what, a week? two weeks? and you're already selling pcs and replacing windows machines without even seeing how windows runs on it? it's not a core duo like the other macs, it's a xeon. different animal there, so wouldn't it be wise to see how it works from people who are buying it as a mac and will install windows on it too before dropping the cash or selling off your current machines?

and you bought a mac, not a pc. i intend on buying a mbp when merom hits, but i realize it's a mac first and foremost, and i let some time go by to make sure i could easily boot into windows and do the couple of things i might want to do. i didn't buy one on release day and cross my fingers and hope for the best.

people already knew what you made this thread to tell them, because there are a bunch of threads saying the same thing already about sata performance.

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:25 PM
Please. Are we really arguing Semantics.

Let's say that you bought a big 4x4 truck... with the ability to "run" in two "environments"...

One was regular roads, which you could run 150+MPH no problem.

The other was offroad.

Now, no manufacturer will SUPPORT you going offroad... however, they let you know that it's the ONLY Car that lets you go offroad AND run 150+MPH on regular roads.

Only, you buy it... and find out that.. yes, you technically CAN go offroading in it... but only at 5MPH because of some sort of mechnical glitch that they didn't catch in testing.

You'd return the car, right?

Why is that so difficult to understand. Knowing that many gamers/pros were WAITING for this to come out... they should not have released the Mac Pro without this being ready to rock.

that's the worst comparison ever, quite possibly. and guess what, that already happens. you can drive fast in a ford explorer on the highway, but try taking one offroad, you surely aren't going very fast and you probably aren't going to get very far unless your idea of offroad is gravel.

nice try tho.

MS bulldog
Aug 18, 2006, 03:27 PM
reading some of the posts leads me to believe some have never heard the term "unsatisfied customer".

toby, good luck on your next purchase...thanks for the mac pro warning/caution post.

MacProGuy
Aug 18, 2006, 03:27 PM
i'll never understand what goes on in some of your heads sometimes. the thing has been out what, a week? two weeks? and you're already selling pcs and replacing windows machines without even seeing how windows runs on it? it's not a core duo like the other macs, it's a xeon. different animal there, so wouldn't it be wise to see how it works from people who are buying it as a mac and will install windows on it too before dropping the cash or selling off your current machines?

and you bought a mac, not a pc. i intend on buying a mbp when merom hits, but i realize it's a mac first and foremost, and i let some time go by to make sure i could easily boot into windows and do the couple of things i might want to do. i didn't buy one on release day and cross my fingers and hope for the best.

people already knew what you made this thread to tell them, because there are a bunch of threads saying the same thing already about sata performance.


I'm sorry, I'm not sure what goes on in YOUR head sometimes.

I mean, and I'm not trying to get Nasty...

But...

I CAN BUY A XEON MACHINE FROM DELL AND GET FULL SATA SPEED. So, why would I NOT expect the same from Apple who is using ALL INTEL PeeCee Standard Parts (as far as Windows XP is concerned) save for the Video Card.

I would think that when a Machine is released, it is ready for PRIME TIME.

Would you buy a TOASTER and then wait for an update to have it cook properly? HECK NO! You'd return it.

Also, this leaves a BAD TASTE in the mouths of PeeCee people who thought about switching.

I've NEVER bought a PeeCee and not been able to run XP fine out of the box.

Same thing. Had I bought a DELL that claimed to run an OS... and it didn't... I'd return the Dell.

Stop being a hard core Apple Fanboy and look at reality:

IT WASN'T QUITE READY FOR PRIME TIME YET.

Bootcamp is BETA. That is only the drivers.

You don't need BOOTCAMP to run Windows.

End of Story.

MS bulldog
Aug 18, 2006, 03:28 PM
that's the worst comparison ever, quite possibly. and guess what, that already happens. you can drive fast in a ford explorer on the highway, but try taking one offroad, you surely aren't going very fast and you probably aren't going to get very far unless your idea of offroad is gravel.

nice try tho.

i think that's what he meant...if you've ever been off roading, like rock climbing and mudding, you'd know that 5-10 mph is a pretty acceptable speed, maybe even extreme. 5mph on gravel would suck though.

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:31 PM
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what goes on in YOUR head sometimes.

I mean, and I'm not trying to get Nasty...

But...

I CAN BUY A XEON MACHINE FROM DELL AND GET FULL SATA SPEED. So, why would I NOT expect the same from Apple who is using ALL INTEL PeeCee Standard Parts (as far as Windows XP is concerned) save for the Video Card.

I would think that when a Machine is released, it is ready for PRIME TIME.

Would you buy a TOASTER and then wait for an update to have it cook properly? HECK NO! You'd return it.

Also, this leaves a BAD TASTE in the mouths of PeeCee people who thought about switching.

I've NEVER bought a PeeCee and not been able to run XP fine out of the box.

Same thing. Had I bought a DELL that claimed to run an OS... and it didn't... I'd return the Dell.

Stop being a hard core Apple Fanboy and look at reality:

IT WASN'T QUITE READY FOR PRIME TIME YET.

Bootcamp is BETA. That is only the drivers.

You don't need BOOTCAMP to run Windows.

End of Story.

it's not a pc. i know it's hard to understand because you saw the commercial and you were confused, but it's still a mac. the fact you call me a hardcore apple fanboy is cute tho, because i've had my powerbook all of 4 months now? i still have my hardcore gaming machine setup for my gaming needs because i'm smart enough to wait and see how things work before dropping 3 grand on a mac to run windows. hang out on the anandtech forums, about once a day we see a thread asking about buying a mac to run windows for college. i guess it's trendy now.

oh, and by the way, everyone already knows it's not ready for prime time. that's why it's called BETA. just fyi.

one more thing, it DOES run windows. and please don't post your horrible comparison to the mystical 150mph offroad vehicle again, it was painful enough the first time.

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:33 PM
i think that's what he meant...if you've ever been off roading, like rock climbing and mudding, you'd know that 5-10 mph is a pretty acceptable speed, maybe even extreme. 5mph on gravel would suck though.

no, what he meant was that he would expect to be able to drive offroad at 150mph because he can do it on the road and the fantasy truck works on both. i'm quite aware of what he's trying to say, he just picked a terrible way to do it.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:34 PM
Let me just say my feelings on the matter are not the same as MacProGuy (who, by the way he types, looks like he had a different name here just recently). But, I do understand where he is coming from.

I didn't have the expectation that everything would work perfectly and the way I wanted it to. I hoped, sure. But I wasn't expecting it. It's my right as a consumer to return the product if I'm not happy with it. I'm just expressing my experience with the product here in the forums for others who may attempt to purchase the Mac Pro with the same or similar intentions. I've spent the $250 that I'll be paying in restocking, and hopefully my experience will help others save their money for the time being. In a week, everything I've said and my reasons for returning it may go away if Apple fixes the issues. For now, right now, today, the Mac Pro does not make a good Windows machine. That's all I'm saying here folks. It's a GREAT Mac. It's not even a 'good' Windows machine.

MS bulldog
Aug 18, 2006, 03:36 PM
no, what he meant was that he would expect to be able to drive offroad at 150mph because he can do it on the road and the fantasy truck works on both. i'm quite aware of what he's trying to say, he just picked a terrible way to do it.


don't tell me how you interpreted something posted on the internet. conform to what i said you thought immediately.:)

The Inevitable
Aug 18, 2006, 03:37 PM
I've never heard of being able to boot Windows off of a firewire drive. Supposedly you can hack at it and boot off of USB, but that is not a path I'm going to go down. You have to intermix SP1 USB drivers with SP2 or something crazy. I didn't read all of the details, but it's definitely not something I want to do.


I was researching the issue for a friend with a MBP and I found that installing Windows onto a FireWire drive is no more involved as installing it on any other drive.

Post #11 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2291889&postcount=11) and post #15 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2291889&postcount=15) of this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=191777) explains how to do it. However, posts #13 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2291889&postcount=13) and #20 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2291889&postcount=20) say that this shouldn't be possible, but post #22 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2291889&postcount=22) gives a possible explanation as to why it does, in fact, work. In short, you can boot Windows from an external FireWire drive just fine without having to install any hacks. :)

RacerX
Aug 18, 2006, 03:40 PM
If the maker of the PC you buy 'supports' the operating system you are installing by supplying drivers for those alternate OS's, it is up to the maker of the PC to fix their drivers. Otherwise, they can't really claim their system will run that operating system. Apple claims their systems "do windows too". It's right there in the commercials and on the bootcamp site. They should then in turn supply the proper drivers to allow that operating system to function properly. Currently, it does not function properly.You are trying to add in support where there is none.

If you are unwilling to learn from your mistakes, then you'll have only yourself to turn to when you repeat them.

By the way, this is my final reponse to you RacerX. It's pretty obvious we aren't going to agree on this.Who is being mean now? :eek:

Well then, this will be my final response too...


"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over,
and then expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein


:D

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:41 PM
don't tell me how you interpreted something posted on the internet. conform to what i said you thought immediately.:)

the fact that he says a mechanical glitch keeps it going at 5mph makes it obvious he is comparing the speed on/off road to the drive speed in osx/xp. maybe if you read it again?

the problem is that nobody is just going to assume that because they can drive a truck on the road at a certain speed that it will perform the same in a completely different enviornment. apparently when it comes to computers people don't think that clearly?

edited to remove the snippy comment.

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:44 PM
Let me just say my feelings on the matter are not the same as MacProGuy (who, by the way he types, looks like he had a different name here just recently). But, I do understand where he is coming from.

I didn't have the expectation that everything would work perfectly and the way I wanted it to. I hoped, sure. But I wasn't expecting it. It's my right as a consumer to return the product if I'm not happy with it. I'm just expressing my experience with the product here in the forums for others who may attempt to purchase the Mac Pro with the same or similar intentions. I've spent the $250 that I'll be paying in restocking, and hopefully my experience will help others save their money for the time being. In a week, everything I've said and my reasons for returning it may go away if Apple fixes the issues. For now, right now, today, the Mac Pro does not make a good Windows machine. That's all I'm saying here folks. It's a GREAT Mac. It's not even a 'good' Windows machine.

so why drop the money on it before seeing if it'll do what you want? i guess that's what i don't get. this is a pretty good size purchase, and losing 250 bucks isn't exactly chump change. it's completely your right to return it, i just don't get why you bought it so quickly in the first place. i guess going by how windows runs on the other intel macs?

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:46 PM
You are trying to add in support where there is none.

If you are unwilling to learn from your mistakes, then you'll have only yourself to turn to when you repeat them.

Who is being mean now? :eek:

Well then, this will be my final response too...


"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over,
and then expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein


:D


I do not appreciate your little Einstein quote. What 'mistake' is this you seem to think I am making, over and over?

We seem to have different interpretations of the word 'support'. Go look at the apple Bootcamp page and search for the word 'support'. They seem to use it a lot when referring to the drivers they are including.

If you can not accept this post for exactly what it is, which I have stated many times already, then please move on. If you were looking to run Windows on your Mac Pro, learn from my experience. If you have no interest in installing Windows on a Mac Pro, then move on.

Edit: and yes, I replied to your post when I said I wouldn't. I do not appreciate the snide little comments. There is no need for this.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 03:49 PM
so why drop the money on it before seeing if it'll do what you want? i guess that's what i don't get. this is a pretty good size purchase, and losing 250 bucks isn't exactly chump change. it's completely your right to return it, i just don't get why you bought it so quickly in the first place. i guess going by how windows runs on the other intel macs?

Exactly. I've seen Windows running great on a Macbook Pro and iMac, first hand. They have had none of the slowness issues I've experienced. Things worked great. My friend has a MBP and uses Windows for his gaming needs and it works great. I based my decision on past experiences. I'm here now sharing my recent experience with the Mac Pro to help others so they can make an informed decision without incurring the time and the cost in testing things out for themselves.

sirnh
Aug 18, 2006, 03:50 PM
so why drop the money on it before seeing if it'll do what you want? i guess that's what i don't get. this is a pretty good size purchase, and losing 250 bucks isn't exactly chump change. it's completely your right to return it, i just don't get why you bought it so quickly in the first place. i guess going by how windows runs on the other intel macs?

You know, I think when it comes to Apple, they just set high expectations for quality. I purchased my Mac Pro after buying both an iMac Intel and a Mac Book and having very good performance results on both, with OS X and Win XP. If you look at Apple's track record with Boot Camp, thus far, you would think they were doing all the right stuff.

It's just disappointing to see them fumble the ball with their top of the line machine.

My iMac makes a better Windows machine than my Mac Pro, right now.

erikistired
Aug 18, 2006, 03:51 PM
Exactly. I've seen Windows running great on a Macbook Pro and iMac, first hand. They have had none of the slowness issues I've experienced. Things worked great. My friend has a MBP and uses Windows for his gaming needs and it works great. I based my decision on past experiences. I'm here now sharing my recent experience with the Mac Pro to help others so they can make an informed decision without incurring the time and the cost in testing things out for themselves.

well here's to hoping they'll fix it, which i'm sure they will since it's a big selling point for them. altho i think the whole point is "check out windows and os x side by side and see how much better os x is."

sirnh
Aug 18, 2006, 03:52 PM
Exactly. I've seen Windows running great on a Macbook Pro and iMac, first hand. They have had none of the slowness issues I've experienced. Things worked great. My friend has a MBP and uses Windows for his gaming needs and it works great. I based my decision on past experiences. I'm here now sharing my recent experience with the Mac Pro to help others so they can make an informed decision without incurring the time and the cost in testing things out for themselves.

Toby,

Are we sharing the same brain lately, or what?

MacProGuy
Aug 18, 2006, 03:56 PM
Let me just say my feelings on the matter are not the same as MacProGuy (who, by the way he types, looks like he had a different name here just recently). But, I do understand where he is coming from.

I didn't have the expectation that everything would work perfectly and the way I wanted it to. I hoped, sure. But I wasn't expecting it. It's my right as a consumer to return the product if I'm not happy with it. I'm just expressing my experience with the product here in the forums for others who may attempt to purchase the Mac Pro with the same or similar intentions. I've spent the $250 that I'll be paying in restocking, and hopefully my experience will help others save their money for the time being. In a week, everything I've said and my reasons for returning it may go away if Apple fixes the issues. For now, right now, today, the Mac Pro does not make a good Windows machine. That's all I'm saying here folks. It's a GREAT Mac. It's not even a 'good' Windows machine.


I can't speak to certain aspects of anything you mentioned in your first paragraph. However, suffice it to say I learned my lesson :D

Anyway,

I'm not so sure it's a GREAT MAC... I had about a 45 minute conversation with someone at the Apple Store about this... and I raised some things they hadn't thought of relative to the Previous G5 Power Mac.

Reasons I think Apple Made a Mistake with the Mac Pro:

#1) Super-Expensive Ram.

A 1GB Mac Pro can not outrun a 2.3Ghz G5 with 3GB Ram. Macs need at LEAST 2 GB to run efficiently. I can take, for high end photoshop and video editing work, a $1200 2.3Ghz G5, spend $999 on 8 Gigs of ram (Trans-Intl), spend $279 on a 6800GT PCI card (CompUSA Mac Section--Dallas), and buy 2 360GB Seagate 7200.10s in Raid 0 for $200 (anyplace online... $99 each)... and I'm at the price of a STOCK Mac Pro 2.66.

If I want to equip the same Mac Pro with the same specs, I will now be at $5900 from the Apple Store in Dallas with Tax.

HOLY CASH COW BATMAN!

This isn't saying that the Mac Pro is a bad machine, it's just stating that if you really want a Power Machine, it's not all that much a Bargain as Apple might have you believe. Sure, BASE PRICE is nice... but add it on... O MY!

Kinda like the Base Price of a good Mercedes is only $29,900... but add sunroof, leather, and a few options, and you are at $50K :eek: (One reason I drive a GTO)...

Reason #2:

You take an INCREDIBLY workstation machine, and add a $70 Video Card to run it. OMG! The current 6600 GT STILL Costs more today than that new 7300GT card.

Reason #3:

By utilizing the switch to INTEL, one of the advantages was supposed to be getting away from high-priced Non-Industry Standard Items.

Well, to get a really Niiiiiiice machine... where is the price advantage?

IN MY OWN HUMBLE OPINION, Apple would have been MUCH better served by creating the Mac Pro as follows:

Single Core 2 Duo Processor (upgradeable to the 2.9Ghz), DDR-2 800 Ram (or 667... allows population of 8 Gigs for about $750-$800)... and seamless Windows XP Performance.

Maybe they should just make a model like that called the MacGamer Pro.

:rolleyes:

sirnh
Aug 18, 2006, 04:06 PM
Toby, how long do you have to return you Mac? I would say, to be safe, and possibly save yourself some money, wait and see if Apple comes up with some sort of firmware fix before then. It's not like the restocking fee will get higher.

Laslo Panaflex
Aug 18, 2006, 04:07 PM
Please read the threads again. Chipset drivers were installed. Thanks but guessing isn't needed. Many people have worked on this, many people have had the same issues, nobody has had success yet.

Yup, you're right there is no solution yet. Apple has to release a firmware update that has updated BIOS emulation that supports the faster HD speeds on the SATA bus for the Mac Pro, you of course already know this :p

I was able to get parallels running on my Mac Pro, it works great for my needs, and if I need to do any gaming on it, I switch over to boot camp which is installed on a PATA drive that according to sisoft sandra is running in UDMA4 mode, so it's not that bad.

Anyway, sorry it didn't work out for you, for now I the setup works fine for me, and I can wait for apple to release a firmware update to fix the problem.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 04:10 PM
Toby, how long do you have to return you Mac? I would say, to be safe, and possibly save yourself some money, wait and see if Apple comes up with some sort of firmware fix before then. It's not like the restocking fee will get higher.

The 24th. There were other reasons other than just the SATA speed. The issue I had with the heat with the 7800 GTX, for one.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 04:12 PM
Yup, you're right there is no solution yet. Apple has to release a firmware update that has updated BIOS emulation that supports the faster HD speeds on the SATA bus for the Mac Pro, you of course already know this :p

I was able to get parallels running on my Mac Pro, it works great for my needs, and if I need to do any gaming on it, I switch over to boot camp which is installed on a PATA drive that according to sisoft sandra is running in UDMA4 mode, so it's not that bad.

Anyway, sorry it didn't work out for you, for now I the setup works fine for me, and I can wait for apple to release a firmware update to fix the problem.

Go download and install http://www.hdtune.com . SiSoft didn't seem to always report the speed properly. Device manager will show you what speed you're running at, and hdtune can also show you (and you can test the speed pretty well with hdtune... sisoft gives you absolutely no feedback when it is running the test so you have to wait till the end to figure out you're only getting 3.5MB/s).

damado
Aug 18, 2006, 04:29 PM
I appreciate when people post their problems as it helps me understand better what I'll be getting into, or if I need to avoid something.

Last week I ordered a BTO MP which won't get here until the last week of september. I have faith that by then there will be a firmware update to fix the SATA issue.

I remember when the MP first came out people had a hard time getting bootcamp to work until 1.1 was released shortly after. I don't even think the MP is listed yet as one of the supported machines with BC.

So to me it's all a matter of time.

If I were you toby, I'd keep it and play with it for the next couple of weeks as a previous posted said, the restocking fee won't go up.

I do have a question though, is the slow performance only when installed on a completely separate HD to bypass BC or is there also slow performance when you partition the drive OSX is on and use BC? There's probably no difference, but I just want to check =)

The Inevitable
Aug 18, 2006, 04:30 PM
The 24th. There were other reasons other than just the SATA speed. The issue I had with the heat with the 7800 GTX, for one.

You can install the 7800 GTX in the double-wide slot and then install one of these (http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=PCI+slot+fan+OR+blower&btnG=Search) on top of it in the space where the blower fan of a double-wide video card would go (so as to not take-up any other of the PCI Express slots). That should remove the heat generated by the 7800 GTX out of the case. Just be sure to buy a fan whose intake is oriented toward the video card rather than away from it.

Also, I'm not sure if you saw it, but I posted a reply (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2734982&postcount=56) to your reply to my post about Windows on an external FireWire drive (its post #56 above).

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 04:36 PM
I appreciate when people post their problems as it helps me understand better what I'll be getting into, or if I need to avoid something.

Last week I ordered a BTO MP which won't get here until the last week of september. I have faith that by then there will be a firmware update to fix the SATA issue.

I remember when the MP first came out people had a hard time getting bootcamp to work until 1.1 was released shortly after. I don't even think the MP is listed yet as one of the supported machines with BC.

So to me it's all a matter of time.

If I were you toby, I'd keep it and play with it for the next couple of weeks as a previous posted said, the restocking fee won't go up.

I do have a question though, is the slow performance only when installed on a completely separate HD to bypass BC or is there also slow performance when you partition the drive OSX is on and use BC? There's probably no difference, but I just want to check =)

I only have until the 24th to return it. After that, I can't return it at all.

I never installed XP to the same HD as OSX. I setup OSX in a Raid-0 Mirror and Bootcamp wouldn't even run because of that. I had to extract the dmg with the drivers and burn that outside of Bootcamp.

It shouldn't matter though. All SATA drives show up as being in PIO mode in XP. I imagine the OSX drive itself would run just as slow if you installed XP to that drive.

The original bootcamp didn't support the Mac Pro. They don't seem to even now say that 1.1 officially supports the Mac Pro specifically, they just say "the latest Intel based Macs".

Prior to Bootcamp even supporting the Mac Pro people just found the drivers on the 'net. In fact the chipset drivers, for one, that are included with Bootcamp are even older than the ones you can find on Intel's website for the 5000x chipset. Granted, maybe there was a reason for this... but it didn't help the speed issues at all.

bearbo
Aug 18, 2006, 04:37 PM
Also, I'm not sure if you saw it, but I posted a reply (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2734982&postcount=56) to your reply to my post about Windows on an external FireWire drive (its post #56 above).

have you gotten that work yet? I'm interested to see exactly how many people have gotten windows xp worked on the firewire drive?

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 04:38 PM
You can install the 7800 GTX in the double-wide slot and then install one of these (http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=PCI+slot+fan+OR+blower&btnG=Search) on top of it in the space where the blower fan of a double-wide video card would go (so as to not take-up any other of the PCI Express slots). That should remove the heat generated by the 7800 GTX out of the case. Just be sure to buy a fan whose intake is oriented toward the video card rather than away from it.

Also, I'm not sure if you saw it, but I posted a reply (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2734982&postcount=56) to your reply to my post about Windows on an external FireWire drive (its post #56 above).

Yeah I could do that with the graphics card.

I did see your post regarding the firewire drive. But i've already gotten around some of the speed issues by putting my drive on the PATA channel. I don't have a FW800 drive and I am not going to invest more money to make this work when it should just work on the SATA channels.

RacerX
Aug 18, 2006, 04:48 PM
Edit: and yes, I replied to your post when I said I wouldn't. I do not appreciate the snide little comments. There is no need for this.I didn't appreciate you getting offended when I was trying to help you understand your mistake. You asked a question..."And please enlighten me the use of Bootcamp if its purpose is not to allow Windows to be installed on Macs."To which I gave you the exact answer.

If you can not accept this post for exactly what it is, which I have stated many times already, then please move on. If you were looking to run Windows on your Mac Pro, learn from my experience. If you have no interest in installing Windows on a Mac Pro, then move on.You have stated that this thread was to get your experiences out to others to help them learn from what you went through.

My purpose is equally noble... to re-enforce your experience with a solid reason as to why you made your mistake.

I wasn't arguing about you giving your system back. I think it is a great idea. And I never told you to move on... as it is no more my place to tell you to do that than it was your place to tell me.

What I take exception with is your use of the term support... Apple does not supply Windows with Macs. Apple doesn't even write the Windows drivers that you get with Boot Camp.

And let us not forget what it says on the top of the Boot Camp page (which you haven't read as you keep writing Bootcamp)... it is a beta!

Plus you agreed to the following (to download Boot Camp):IMPORTANT NOTE: THIS IS BETA, TIME-LIMITED SOFTWARE MEANT FOR EVALUATION PURPOSES ONLY. THIS SOFTWARE SHOULD NOT BE USED IN A COMMERCIAL OPERATING ENVIRONMENT OR WITH IMPORTANT DATA. BEFORE INSTALLING THE APPLE SOFTWARE, YOU SHOULD BACK UP ALL OF YOUR DATA AND REGULARLY BACK UP DATA WHILE USING THE APPLE SOFTWARE.

-and-

No Third Party Software Support. Apple has provided, as part of the Apple Software package, access to certain third party software as a convenience. To the extent that the Apple Software contains third party software, Apple has no express or implied obligation to provide any technical or other support for such software. Please contact the appropriate software vendor or manufacturer directly for technical support and customer service related to its software and products.

We seem to have different interpretations of the word 'support'. Go look at the apple Bootcamp page and search for the word 'support'. They seem to use it a lot when referring to the drivers they are including.You and I may have different interpretations... but then again, we have similar interpretations of final post. :D

Fortunately, my interpretation of support (and the lack there of) would have saved you from believing Boot Camp would let a Mac replace a Windows PC to the degree that you thought it would... or at least it would have stopped you from trying to assign blame on Apple.

tobyg
Aug 18, 2006, 04:57 PM
If anyone else has any questions or comments, let me know.

Abulia
Aug 18, 2006, 04:59 PM
This thread is a prime example of why I can't respect these forums as much as I would like to.

The original poster has explained time and time again why HE needs to return his Mac Pro, yet by the look of many responses you would think he had badmouthed the Mac Pro harshly. People respond as if they are offended by the fact that he isn't satisfied with a certain performance issue and just can't get the fact that somebody wouldn't be satisfied.

I'd like to thank the OP for the issue that he brought up because I have been contemplating a Mac Pro and would like to be aware of as many issues (no matter how big or small they are) before I decide to get one. I'm sure apple will fix this hard drive speed issue (just like the OP said) and it will be fine, but if you need a system now, you need it now and I understand him returning it.

Worth repeating.

As a current PM owner who would like to get a Mac Pro for many of the same reasons (remove a duplicate Windows machine) I am watching these threads closely.

As usual, the Apple faithful do not fail to disappoint with their rhetoric.

Abulia
Aug 18, 2006, 05:09 PM
Oh, regarding SATA performance, it's not just the Mac Pro. When I ran benchmarks on the MacBook using 7200rpm drives something very strange was going on.

You can review the results here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=206695).

damado
Aug 18, 2006, 05:12 PM
As for the video card heat issues, try one of these (http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustRatingReview.asp?Item=N82E16835186133)

I have one in my HTPC on a 7800GT and it's silent. Cools amazingly too.

The Inevitable
Aug 18, 2006, 05:22 PM
Yeah I could do that with the graphics card.

I did see your post regarding the firewire drive. But i've already gotten around some of the speed issues by putting my drive on the PATA channel. I don't have a FW800 drive and I am not going to invest more money to make this work when it should just work on the SATA channels.

I agree, but, ultimately, it will be cheaper to buy an external FW800 enclosure (like this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817146603&ATT=17-146-603&CMP=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r)--MacAlly's drive enclosures have always been very good in my experience) and the exhaust fan for the video card than to pay the restocking fee. Also, after Apple fixes the DMA problem, you can still use the FW800 enclosure for other purposes (its pretty fast, afterall).

I don't want you to take my posts the wrong way as trying to convince you to keep your Mac Pro, because, if you feel that it really isn't right for you, I'll support your decision. All I'm trying to do is just make you aware of options you hadn't considered or thought of before to help you with making your decision as to what's right for you. :)

MacsAttack
Aug 18, 2006, 05:59 PM
I suspect what happened with the Mac Pro is exactly what appears to have happened with the other Intel machines. That is that Apple did not prioritize development of features that were not required to run OS X prior to launching their new products. It was only some time afterwards that firmware updates and boot camp were relesed.

So far I have seen no reports of major problems running OS X and applications of the Mac Pro. What issues there have been have so far been limited to a handful of people who have encountered problems using third party memory, disks, or video cards. I expect we will see some more fimware updates out of Apple in a month or two.

Some people can't wait of course...

dpaanlka
Aug 18, 2006, 06:02 PM
That is that Apple did not prioritize development of features that were not required to run OS X

And people are surprised by this because... (???)

killr_b
Aug 18, 2006, 06:08 PM
I don't need 'support' for Windows... I need 'support' installing Windows on my Mac. Please understand the difference.


You did install windows.
You just don't like the performance.
Apple met their agreement, unless it says specificaly "native performance."

I bet they'll have this fixed by the 13th of september.
The day we all got as shipping dates for X1900 Mac Pros.
If I've learned anything at all, it's that Apple is well aware of problems and they are usually on top of fixing it. Even if they are denying it today. :D

Apple really screwed the pooch on this one. I LOST $2000 by selling my gaming PeeCee for NOTHING on Ebay... with the understanding that their website said that I could dual boot.

Now, I've bought a Dell to replace it for Games.

I didn't want to... but it just wasn't a solution I was comfortable with.

AND NOW... I don't have the money to buy a Mac Pro when they fix these issues, if ever.

Sounds like you screwed the pooch by jumping the gun- twice. And if you didn't sell your Mac you would have the sweet system when they fix the 'whatever.' I don't pretend to know 'cause I'm still waiting for mine.

So now you have a Dell?? Games aren't that cool...

miniConvert
Aug 18, 2006, 06:09 PM
I'm sorry your Mac Pro didn't work out as planned, tobyg. Hopefully you'll find a way to try a Mac Pro again once Boot Camp is out of beta.

Mine's still on order :D So excited! :D

Chone
Aug 18, 2006, 06:17 PM
Instead of running out liek that you should have tried with different SATA drivers, I believe someone got SATA drives to run just fine on WinXP by using a USB Floppy and installing the actual drivers from Seagate.

rmhop81
Aug 18, 2006, 06:49 PM
This thread is a perfect example of why apple FANBOYS get such a bad name. I own both a windows machine and an apple machine so i'm not like a majority of the hard core mackies. It's a reality that people need windows. I'm just an average user that likes music and looks at photos on my machines. I don't necessarily NEED windows but that is what I'm used to. I've used it all my life until I got my first mac around 2 years ago. Since I've switched over to using Mac I've noticed a totally different world. If you're on a PC thread you don't hear about people flaming apple or OSX at all. But once you hit the apple boards if anyone mentions anything about windows OR pc people just start flaming them. People need windows and mac os x for different things. THE OP obviously NEEDED both but didn't want to pay $2500 to have mac os x and another $1,000 to buy himself a dell just to run windows. Apple gives off the wrong idea by even mentioning and having ads that MACS run windows too. IT just gives off the wrong impression. IF you're not going to make it work like windows should then don't advertise that you're machine can run it. THE OP simply needed a new machine and he had great experiences with the imac before. Apple got his hopes up by the way they were advertising that it would run windows. and yeah they don't SUPPORT windows but they claim it can run it well just like PC can. Which that isn't true.

Think of this scenario. You are a business man and you travel from Dallas to NYC. You need both windows AND OS X. So you see the apple commercials and hear about BOOT CAMP and decide to take the plunge and order a MBP to suit both your needs. YEAH apple doesn't support it but they are claiming that windows runs great on their hardware so why have a pc? So you order the MBP bc it would be a waste to spend $2,000 for a MBP for os x and then $1,000 for a comparable dell to run your windows. so why not just pay the $2,000 to run both? That's what the OP did. Apple just claims they can RUN windows to get PC users to switch over to apple that is the only reason they are doing that. Otherwise if they didn't want switchers to come over they wouldn't care if the current apple users could have windows on their machines. The fact is the OP needed and wanted a new machine that could run both, so he did what apple suggested and bought a MP thinking he could use both like apple states when in reality that's not true. Too bad the apple fanboys had to be a jerk to the guy for no reason when he was just informing everyone to be careful about their decision. The fanboys is what gives apple their bad impression that most pc users make of them. OP goodluck, hope it works out.

jsw
Aug 18, 2006, 07:02 PM
It's getting too heated in here.

And I think we've veered wildly off topic.

So, to avoid needing to hand out vacations, I think I'll do the prudent thing and close this.