Panther Revealed In June (wwdc) [Archive]

Jaykay

Mar 21, 2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
For the new PowerMac 970s they'd need to redo the OS, right? Makes perfect sense to me....

Also, look forward to paying for Panther if they're making such a big deal about it. And to change the date of a conference, that was probably booked quite a while ago has huge implications. Its not something you do lightly - especially since many people have to change their airline and hotel reservations.

D

Yup, seems big. Hopefully its not because steve had a prior engagement on the original day:p

Foxer

Mar 21, 2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Jaykay
i dont see a new PM coming so soon after they were updated...

They could announced/previewed at WWDC, but in typical Apple fashion, it may be Aug or Sept before they're available to ship.;)

Jaykay

Mar 21, 2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Foxer
They could announced/previewed at WWDC, but in typical Apple fashion, it may be Aug or Sept before they're available to ship.;)

Sounds like a valid statement to me.

Stike

Mar 21, 2003, 09:51 AM

I don´t see right now, HOW the date has changed. Has the event been delayed? It could also be a software-only thing, since a complete version of Panther to be demoed would be nice, and would be embarrassing to show an alpha version or whatever.

Okay, such a move is not done light-hearted. It will have its reasons. Could it be the new iPod? This device thingy with the myterious enclosures mentioned on Page2 ?

Hmmm!!

That postcard IS ugly, though.

G4scott

Mar 21, 2003, 09:58 AM

I don't think they'd have to redo the OS to get it working on a PPC 970, but it would be better if they made some changes to it took advantage of the 970's features.

I wonder what some of the new features will be?

iTunes Rendezvous support (we've been waiting...)

A better DVD player

a final version of safari

Oh the possibilities... I guess we'll just have to wait...

I know that windows will have a very hard time keeping up at the rate Apple's going... They won't have anything until 2005, or maybe 2004, if they're lucky.

bdguyton1

Mar 21, 2003, 10:12 AM

This is probably a REALLY dumb question, but I would like to know the answer. PLEASE don't bash me for it, but what is the PPC 970? is it a new processor or something?

Stike

Mar 21, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by bdguyton1
This is probably a REALLY dumb question, but I would like to know the answer. PLEASE don't bash me for it, but what is the PPC 970? is it a new processor or something?

:D :D :D
*slap*
:p

Do a search, and read the latest three topics with it in the title, and you will know everything about it. Hint: A new CPU from IBM...

And please don´t ask now about "CPU" or "IBM"... the consequences would be gruesome! :D

bdguyton1

Mar 21, 2003, 10:20 AM

rrrriiiiigggghhhhtttt.......... now i feel like a retard. lol. Thanks. Looking forward to Panther!

szark

Mar 21, 2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
And to change the date of a conference, that was probably booked quite a while ago has huge implications. Its not something you do lightly - especially since many people have to change their airline and hotel reservations.

It sucks just as much for those of us who made our reservations THIS WEEK. :mad:

Though it looks like they reserve a block of rooms at the hotel and give them the guest list later. People with plane tickets are going to be affected most.

BTW, Is Geekfest still targeted for June 13-15?

merges

Mar 21, 2003, 10:38 AM

luckily most airlines have instituted policies whereby us travellers can change our tickets—no fuss, no muss—due to the security issues we may face as a result of the american incursion into iraq.

shakespeare

Mar 21, 2003, 11:26 AM

Are they going to start selling 10.3 in June, do you think? Or are they going to give us another countdown to the actual release date?

mnkeybsness

Mar 21, 2003, 11:38 AM

oh boy...can't wait to join the b*tch fest about having to pay for panther a year after jaguar!

melchior

Mar 21, 2003, 11:50 AM

but jaguar was worth it ;)

if they release it with 970's no one will say a word.

tjwett

Mar 21, 2003, 11:51 AM

yeah, doesn't this seem a little soon? i'm sure people are gonna be bummed when they have to pay for an update so soon after Jag. i hope it's worth it or better yet, free!

szark

Mar 21, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by shakespeare
Are they going to start selling 10.3 in June, do you think? Or are they going to give us another countdown to the actual release date?

Well, the press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/mar/21wwdc.html) states that they rescheduled in order to provide developers with a more complete preview release of the next version of Mac® OS X, code named “Panther.”

If developers are leaving (on June 27th) with a preview release, they won't be selling the final version immediately.

type_r503

Mar 21, 2003, 12:11 PM

You won't have to pay for Panther. It will be included in your brand new PowerMac PPC970.

DreaminDirector

Mar 21, 2003, 12:14 PM

I'm just wondering what new features there are going to be. I mean, I don't mind paying for an update as long as there are large leaps and bounds in the features of the OS. I haven't heard much discussion on what's coming our way. Probably more bluetooth support, rendezvous support (or iTunes), and now that I think about it, I dont know what else....

does anyone know what will come with this major update in June? (by the time we get it, it'll be a midnight party in September at the Apple store...)

FattyMembrane

Mar 21, 2003, 12:51 PM

it seems like apple's leaks have been sealed off. by the time they had announced 10.2 to be shown at wwdc there were already screenshots floating around. i want to see what kind of cool stuff 10.3 is going to have. if panther is going to be a full price update, apple knows that people will bitch unless it does some amazing things, so i'm not too worried. the only problem i can forsee is fitting the os onto cds. chances are it will be a fat binary for 64/32 bit machines (i really hope they don't wait 3 years to make it fat like classic) which will increase the size, and new apps/frameworks/etc will increase as well. the bare os for 10.2 barely fit on one cd, i hope they can make this work.

type_r503

Mar 21, 2003, 01:41 PM

"Moving to June ensures that every developer will leave the event with a copy of Panther in their hands."

From this quote I would be led to believe that Panther be final at WWDC. It says a copy of Panther not Developer Preview.

Skurn

Mar 21, 2003, 02:19 PM

My bet would be thats its something about their upcoming music service and maybe a new iTunes for it. I'm sure it would be a whole lot of other stuff too, but with new iPods coming soon (hopefully) it could mean an intergrated music service in iTunes or something like that. Like downloading songs straight to iTunes, and over to your iPod if its connected. Would be great and very simple.

Go Panther!

CrackedButter

Mar 21, 2003, 04:01 PM

I'm waiting for the 10.4 release...featuring Lion-O, Jackalman, Cheetara, Wilykit, Tygra, Wilykat, Monkian, Panthro, and Snarf.

kettle

Mar 21, 2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by CrackedButter
I'm waiting for the 10.4 release...featuring Lion-O, Jackalman, Cheetara, Wilykit, Tygra, Wilykat, Monkian, Panthro, and Snarf.

he he:D
you poor b4stard.

mac15

Mar 21, 2003, 06:16 PM

ooo this is something nice to wake upto, now will apple begin shipping seeds to the ADC now?

jaykk

Mar 21, 2003, 06:18 PM

Yes, agree Jaguar was worth $129, and i was in line for the party at Apple Store. Looks like we have to shell out $129 every year i guess, time to buy some APPL stocks.

Rincewind42

Mar 21, 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
For the new PowerMac 970s they'd need to redo the OS, right? Makes perfect sense to me....

The PowerPC 970 is a PowerPC processor, and thus shares the same 32-bit instruction set that all other 32-bit implementations of the PowerPC share. IBM has also stated that the changes needed to run a 32-bit OS on the PowerPC 970 are minimal. Therefore there is no reason that they should have to redo anything to run on a PowerPC 970 if they want to run in 32-bit mode -- which is almost certain if Apple intends to release 10.3 within the next 6 months.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Even if Apple releases a PowerPC 970 based system this summer, there is almost zero reason for them to also release a 64-bit version of MacOS X at that time. MacOS X will probably not be a 64-bit OS until at least version 10.4, if only so that developers can actually start revving their apps for such a release.

If there are any doubts, remember that 10.2 was released in August. The PowerPC 970 wasn't sampling until this year, and wasn't announced officially until October of last year. So assuming that Apple is going to make systems with this chip, that would mean that they have probably had less than 3 months to do so thus far. Not only that, but any such test machines they may have had would have been prototypes! This is very bad for development. Apple will not release a 64-bit version of MacOS X until they release 64-bit hardware to the public, period.

Originally posted by 000111one111000
WWDC's date was changed quite a while ago. I forget the reasons, but I do remember reading about it a month or more ago.

I don't think so. For one, on Tuesday when I bought my e-ticket, it clearly stated that it expired on May 23 - the last day of the former date. Today it states that it expires on June 27 - the last day of the new date. And anyway, I didn't sign up alone, but with 4 others who were all checking dates and schedules, so I don't think that a change like that could have gotten past us all :D.

MOM

Mar 21, 2003, 07:13 PM

There is a new article over at eWeek at:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,961477,00.asp

The quote I found to be of interest is:

"If Apple goes through with the plan, it will position WWDC as the main summer forum for a Jobs keynote."

The author, Matthew Rothenberg, has at times been a reliable source of info. This sounds like a hint (guess) of a 970 introduction at WWDC

hmmm

fred_lj

Mar 21, 2003, 09:12 PM

That's what some of us at AI have come to consensus on -- that Apple may not even attend MWNY this year. Such fanfare on the website is clearly indicative of this. They could have annouced this date change very minimalistically -- just headline in the Hot News or a little gray blip or link or box on the website. But they didn't. :)

This is going to be good methinks.

tjwett
yeah, doesn't this seem a little soon? i'm sure people are gonna be bummed when they have to pay for an update so soon after Jag. i hope it's worth it or better yet, free!

To me that would say "970, here we come!" There would, as you say, be no truly other viable reason that I can think of to make this update "worth it."

j763

Mar 21, 2003, 09:13 PM

From the eWeek article...

"Our annual Worldwide Developers Conference provides our developers an in-depth look at the future of the Mac platform, and giving everyone a preview release of Panther is the best way to do that," said Ron Okamoto, Apple vice president of Worldwide Developer Relations, in a statement.

Note what I've bolded :)

janey

Mar 21, 2003, 09:20 PM

woohoo!! i am so glad i didn't make any plans for the earlier dates for WWDC hopefully i can still go and not have to worry about anything...and waiting in line to get Panther at the apple store if they're releasing it at WWDC :p

chewbaccapits

Mar 21, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
For the new PowerMac 970s they'd need to redo the OS, right? Makes perfect sense to me....

Also, look forward to paying for Panther if they're making such a big deal about it. And to change the date of a conference, that was probably booked quite a while ago has huge implications. Its not something you do lightly - especially since many people have to change their airline and hotel reservations.

D
I know its not confirmed yet, but does everyone have to pay every year for an upgrade? What the heck! Thats weak.

jayscheuerle

Mar 21, 2003, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
I know its not confirmed yet, but does everyone have to pay every year for an upgrade? What the heck! Thats weak.

Ha! It's just that everyone here is an OS junkie and won't be able to resist upgrading no matter what the cost or how little the feature set!

:D

elo

Mar 21, 2003, 09:52 PM

I can offer the following as absolute certainties:

1. This will be a fairly early Preview Release, not the shipping product. Its purpose is to allow developers to get excited about the new OS and to start their own work. It will be feature-incomplete and not optimized for speed, as the target group requires neither.

2. The completed product will not ship before the one-year anniversary of Jaguar. (Nevertheless, this is not a "pre-announcement" as major releases must always be given first to developers.)

3. The shipping version will have significant new features, akin to the difference between 10.2 and 10.1. It will be a worthy upgrade and priced accordingly (in the neighborhood of $99-$129, though this has not been determined).

4. People will be happy about the direction of the Power Mac (even if they still don't have as many details as they want). Nothing dramatically new will be shipping by that point, however, or necessarily even announced as such.

5. Panther is for everyone.

6. It would be unwise to think of WWDC as the new MacWorld. It is for developers, period. If you evaluate software and hardware discussions by the same criteria you would at a convention for the general public, you would be significantly missing the point.

elo

janey

Mar 21, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by elo
6. It would be unwise to think of WWDC as the new MacWorld. It is for developers, period. If you evaluate software and hardware discussions by the same criteria you would at a convention for the general public, you would be significantly missing the point.
i think of WWDC as the Macworld. It's even better than macworld. :p more die hard mac users...

Mudbug

Mar 21, 2003, 10:15 PM

That wouldn't make any sense for them to offer Panther for sale to the public at the same time as making it available for developers. You'd have an operating system available with no tested software to run on it. If there's a kernel change, or something else deep down system-wide than could have far-reaching consequences on your existing software that you've been running for quite some time, then you'd probably want the folks that wrote said software to have already made the tweaks necessary to work on the new OS.

Enter the WWDC. That's the reason they're giving the developers a "preview release" of the software to develop for.

Otherwise, we'd all run windows.

Anyway, the reason for the delay is hopefully to show that pather can work on both a 32 bit AND drumroll please... a 64 bit chip. :D

janey

Mar 21, 2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Mudbug
Enter the WWDC. That's the reason they're giving the developers a "preview release" of the software to develop for. Otherwise, we'd all run windows. Anyway, the reason for the delay is hopefully to show that pather can work on both a 32 bit AND drumroll please... a 64 bit chip. :D
They might give developers the official shipping version of Panther (:) just hoping, crossing my fingers ;)) and then perhaps sell the product on another date...developers deserve to get something better than the preview release of Panther for what we're paying to attend WWDC...

Mudbug

Mar 21, 2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
developers deserve to get something better than the preview release of Panther for what we're paying to attend WWDC...

I'll agree, to an extent, but I think the "getting something" part comes by way of being able to charge consumers for they're wares to work on the OS provided by Apple. Insomuch as I'm able to charge people for the artwork that comes out of my copy of Adobe Photoshop, since I've paid my dues and learned to use the program in the ways it was intended. I'm not guaranteed to get more return from my $700 piece of software than Joe Public down the street, but it's my expertise and ability that people are willing to reimburse me for that makes the conferences and learning sessions worth the $$.

It's not going to come in the form of getting something for free from Apple just because you decided to attend they're training event.

reyesmac

Mar 21, 2003, 10:37 PM

I guess the fear of having to spend the extra money for Panther will keep me from buying any G5's until they come out with it. Hopefully the G5 will come much sooner than Panther so they can fix any bugs before they load it with the OS that is meant for it (panther).

Heres some things I think Panther will have:

Animated Desktop Backgrounds
Animated Icons
New transitions and genie effects
Labels

janey

Mar 21, 2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Mudbug
I'll agree, to an extent, but I think the "getting something" part comes by way of being able to charge consumers for they're wares to work on the OS provided by Apple....It's not going to come in the form of getting something for free from Apple just because you decided to attend they're training event.
some developers don't charge people for use of their software...and it's not a training event. And technically for $1300 i would like to get a free copy of Panther :p
edit: okay not $1300 but a fraction of the cost of a premier ADC membership.

shadowfax

Mar 21, 2003, 10:49 PM

what are the odds that they removed the themability of OS X for stbility, and that now that it is rock solid they might let some more theming occur?

macphoria

Mar 21, 2003, 11:20 PM

Just because 64 bit IBM 970 is coming this summer does not mean Panther will be 64 bit optimized software. 970 is supposed to be backwards compatible (32 bit). But I'm hopping for Apple to prove me wrong.

Mudbug

Mar 21, 2003, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
what are the odds that they removed the themability of OS X for stbility, and that now that it is rock solid they might let some more theming occur?

I assume you mean themes like Kalidescope offered for the pre-X OS's, but for now those looking to customize what they can can get candy bar from Icon Factory (http://www.iconfactory.com/cb_home.asp) This may be only icons, but hey, it's a start

I'm having html issues tonight, in case you're wondering about my edits... :rolleyes:

foniks2020

Mar 21, 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Ha! It's just that everyone here is an OS junkie and won't be able to resist upgrading no matter what the cost or how little the feature set!

:D

Well, as far as 10.2 goes, I think hardware accelerated windowing, pdf/opengl/video realtime compositing on said hardware and improved performance across the board, was worth paying for.

Now if all they do is add in a 'theming' api I will not be paying jack, off to the 1999 'hotline' equivalent of today to find an update I can live with...

if on the other hand they bring impressive new features as they have been doing so far for OS X I will gladly pay.

Here's wishing for OpenGL 2!

shadowfax

Mar 21, 2003, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Mudbug
I assume you mean themes like Kalidescope offered for the pre-X OS's, but for now those looking to customize what they can can get candy bar from Icon Factory (http://www.iconfactory.com/cb_home.asp) This may be only icons, but hey, it's a start
I have Candybar, thank you. i was talking about actually changing things up big, like duality.

but i don't want it to be 3rd party. i want them to include colors and things, and a themability would be nice... there are like 2 major desktop managers out there that aren't natively themable: Mac OS X and Windows. what a shame.

shadowfax

Mar 21, 2003, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by foniks2020
Well, as far as 10.2 goes, I think hardware accelerated windowing, pdf/opengl/video realtime compositing on said hardware and improved performance across the board, was worth paying for.

Now if all they do is add in a 'theming' api I will not be paying jack, off to the 1999 'hotline' equivalent of today to find an update I can live with...

if on the other hand they bring impressive new features as they have been doing so far for OS X I will gladly pay.

Here's wishing for OpenGL 2!

few would pay $129 for a theme API. rest assured there will be more than that. in fact, i am pretty worried that such an API won't be included at all.

apple has done more than that in 10.2.x changes, lol. I suspect they will be totally redefining some apps that go with it, like iChat, and they may not release safari final till Panther comes out. i would expect something big. Apples been doing a lot of ne stuff so far this year, i don't see why they would let us down now.

Catfish_Man

Mar 22, 2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by elo
I can offer the following as absolute certainties:

1. This will be a fairly early Preview Release, not the shipping product. Its purpose is to allow developers to get excited about the new OS and to start their own work. It will be feature-incomplete and not optimized for speed, as the target group requires neither.

2. The completed product will not ship before the one-year anniversary of Jaguar. (Nevertheless, this is not a "pre-announcement" as major releases must always be given first to developers.)

3. The shipping version will have significant new features, akin to the difference between 10.2 and 10.1. It will be a worthy upgrade and priced accordingly (in the neighborhood of $99-$129, though this has not been determined).

4. People will be happy about the direction of the Power Mac (even if they still don't have as many details as they want). Nothing dramatically new will be shipping by that point, however, or necessarily even announced as such.

5. Panther is for everyone.

6. It would be unwise to think of WWDC as the new MacWorld. It is for developers, period. If you evaluate software and hardware discussions by the same criteria you would at a convention for the general public, you would be significantly missing the point.

elo

All of those make a lot of sense, and they're being stated as fact. Do you have inside info, or are you just making some educated guesses? (Or option 3, is your NDA too restrictive for you to even answer this question :))

IJ Reilly

Mar 22, 2003, 12:52 AM

I can't believe nobody else has noticed this yet, so I guess that leaves it to me to lay on the really big kahuna: The last time Apple rescheduled an event at the last minute, the G4 iMac was released.

Also: the WWDC schedule lists the keynote as "to be announced."

Huh? Huh?

reyesmac

Mar 22, 2003, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I can't believe nobody else has noticed this yet, so I guess that leaves it to me to lay on the really big kahuna: The last time Apple rescheduled an event at the last minute, the G4 iMac was released.

So if this is anything like the G4 iMac release I guess that means the first G5 revision will be overpriced and quickly made obsolite? I hope not.

Codemonkey

Mar 22, 2003, 01:28 AM

Hey...

I was quickly going through the events and noticed this:

"Max OS X State of the Union"
To Be Announced

a) It's TBA. as in, We Won't Tell You A Thing Til You're Watching It Live

b) What the heck is "Max"? Type-o? Probably. Creative writing? Doubt it, it's pretty weak. New Product?

??
:confused:

rubikcube

Mar 22, 2003, 02:09 AM

Honestly, the people who are shelling out 1300 bucks to go to this thing are probably select or premier members of ADC. These guys get pretty much everything in the way of operating systems, including final releases. Don't worry yourselves over it. Also, for those who think that paying for an upgrade is a problem, did you actually pay for the jaguar update or download it off limewire like so many people? If you didn't buy the jag update and don't use it, you probably don't need it that badly. If you payed for the jaguar update, good for you. You are the people keeping the mac platform going. I think a big reason why apple has stayed afloat is because of the large numbers of people who are willing to pay for the software. If we take that away, there might not be much of an apple left.

xenotek

Mar 22, 2003, 02:24 AM

Just like to start out by agreeing whole heartedly with rubikcube - If you're a tried and true apple user, buy the updates rather than pirate them OR YOU HATE FREEDOM!!! you don't hate freedom... do you..?

Additionally, IJ Reilly pointed out earlier that the last time they rescheduled an event at the last minute, something big happened. While I am hoping for some hot new thing (any EDUCATED speculation?), remember that this is a developers conference, not a macworld expo.

personal rubiks cube best: 1 minute 13 sec ;)

Stike

Mar 22, 2003, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by xenotek
If you're a tried and true apple user, buy the updates rather than pirate them OR YOU HATE FREEDOM!!! you don't hate freedom... do you..?

Don´t let this thread grow into an uncontrolled flame war about pirates. Make a new one for that in the community section. Or even better: Let it be completely.

gotohamish

Mar 22, 2003, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by Stike
I don´t see right now, HOW the date has changed. Has the event been delayed? It could also be a software-only thing, since a complete version of Panther to be demoed would be nice, and would be embarrassing to show an alpha version or whatever.

Okay, such a move is not done light-hearted. It will have its reasons. Could it be the new iPod? This device thingy with the myterious enclosures mentioned on Page2 ?

Hmmm!!

That postcard IS ugly, though.

The Apple press release states that the date has been changed so that instead of developers SEEING a demo of panther, they can actually take one home with them! Sound's like a good excuse.

reyesmac

Mar 22, 2003, 02:45 AM

Paying for updates is fine, as long as you dont have to do it a few months after you buy a new Mac. I only say this because I thought we would be getting the G5 this year, if that is the case, by the time Panther is ready to ship, the G5 should be out by then.

Stike

Mar 22, 2003, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by gotohamish
The Apple press release states that the date has been changed so that instead of developers SEEING a demo of panther, they can actually take one home with them! Sound's like a good excuse.

As stated above, such a delay must have very important reasons. So, IF this is not an excuse, but the true reason, WHY is it so important for Apple to give the developers a first seed?

Why could it be crucial for Apple to let the devs have a copy as early as possible?

My speculation: If Panther really contains a 64bit part, it would be very important to have developers on board as early as possible, in order to obtain a fast optimization of important apps to 64bit.

chewbaccapits

Mar 22, 2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by xenotek
"...If you're a tried and true apple user, buy the updates rather than pirate them OR YOU HATE FREEDOM!!! you don't hate freedom... do you..?"

Oh gawd...

simX

Mar 22, 2003, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I can't believe nobody else has noticed this yet, so I guess that leaves it to me to lay on the really big kahuna: The last time Apple rescheduled an event at the last minute, the G4 iMac was released.

Um, what the heck are you talking about? The G4 iMac was released at MWSF '02, and MWSF took place at the same time it normally takes place: the second week of January. There was no rescheduling at the last minute.

Plus, the rescheduling of WWDC is HARDLY last-minute. The original date for WWDC was the END OF MAY. We're only in the end of MARCH. That's 2 months, and now WWDC is 3 months away.

Anyhoo, I believe that the major reason for this change is to position WWDC as the summer keynote event. Yes, WWDC is aimed chiefly at developers, but Apple only wants to do one show per year for consumers, so it makes sense to have a major venue through which to announce new products (probably mainly software upgrades like Panther and such), even if it's not at a consumer event. They'll probably reserve "Apple Events" for major hardware upgrades.

Also, remember last year how Apple changed its Mac OS X website when Jaguar was previewed at WWDC to tout Panther? This is going to be the same thing: Apple is going to announce Panther, say it's going to be shipping sometime in the next few months (I doubt that Panther is going to be released anytime later than December of this year, and I would bet on late summer), and they're going to update their Mac OS X website so that consumers can get all hyped up about the next major upgrade.

As for those people crying about having to pay for another upgrade: um, you have to pay for software development. If you like and want the features, then buy it! If you don't and can live without them, then you can keep on using Jaguar or Puma or Cheetah or whatever. You're not obligated to upgrade. I don't think $129 for a major upgrade like Jaguar was unreasonable, and charging again for Panther is not unreasonable either, as long as it has enough new features. Apple did the same with the Classic Mac OS releases, although it offered a small discount if you had bought the previous release and proved it with a coupon. I personally think that Apple should reinstate this policy, but I'm not going to get up in arms if they don't.

Besides, if you DO get a new Mac, Apple usually offers an up-to-date program that allows you to get the newest major version of Mac OS X if it was released 1-2 months after you bought your Mac. Apple did that with Jaguar and Puma, and I see no reason why they won't continue that with Panther. So there's no real reason to put off buying a new Mac, either.

xenotek

Mar 22, 2003, 03:12 AM

regarding my last post...

i·ro·ny __noun

a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit

:rolleyes:

Anyways, lets try to stay on track. Thank you simX for your explanation. Newbie question: I bought Jaguar and inside the box came some cute little software update coupons. These probably cant be used to get my hands on a copy of Panther when it comes out... can they..?

Stike

Mar 22, 2003, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by xenotek
regarding my last post...

i·ro·ny __noun
:rolleyes:

Anyways, lets try to stay on track. Thank you simX for your explanation. Newbie question: I bought Jaguar and inside the box came some cute little software update coupons. These probably cant be used to get my hands on a copy of Panther when it comes out... can they..?

Well, I know what irony is, thanks anyway. I just don´t want others to jump that quote and start an argument.

simX was right mostly, but regarding the "buy a Mac and upgrade then" program: It was neglected quite a lot by Apple when Jaguar came out. The upgrade time was only two weeks or something like that, many were upset.

The 10.2 update coupons are really there to get a discount if you buy 10.3 (or any other following paid upgrade). It is necessary that Apple supports it, though. I have those, too! :D
I just hope, I can use them on 10.3.

RandomDeadHead

Mar 22, 2003, 05:37 AM

My speculation: If Panther really contains a 64bit part, it would be very important to have developers on board as early as possible, in order to obtain a fast optimization of important apps to 64bit.

And what would these developers test their 64bit apps on?

Stike

Mar 22, 2003, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by RandomDeadHead
And what would these developers test their 64bit apps on?

Hmm. Hehe. Hmm. Good question! :D
Maybe they dont need to test them... ;) :p

dongmin

Mar 22, 2003, 07:25 AM

doesn´t anyone READ on this forum?

1. Apple will be releasing a preview of Panther, not the final.

2. The rescheduling of the conference could just well be because Apple won't be ready with the release until the later date, as stated. Reading anything more into it would just be an excercise in in fantasy.

3. I forget what Apple's usual development cycle is, but if they're barely releasing a preview, it won't be ready for another 3-6 months. So we might have to wait until MWSF 2004!

4. The final release of Panther should coincide with the release of 970. Again, depending on Apple's development schedule, it could be Jan. 2004 before Apple ships anything with a 970 in it. (But this is purely a speculation on my part, of course.)

wwworry

Mar 22, 2003, 08:08 AM

Meta data and journaling are the only things I can think of that would be worth a paid update. People with G4s won't care about a 64 bit OS because they can't use it. The 64 bit OS has to come on a new 64 bit processor box.

I am not so sure this will be a paid update because I can't think of that many compelling new features. No imagination this morning.:)

IJ Reilly

Mar 22, 2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by simX
Um, what the heck are you talking about? The G4 iMac was released at MWSF '02, and MWSF took place at the same time it normally takes place: the second week of January. There was no rescheduling at the last minute.

Nope, wrong. The keynote was rescheduled from Tuesday to Monday just a few weeks before the event, which required no small amount of scrambling especially on the part of the media. After the keynote the press was escorted to the show floor for a special preview. Steve made it worth our while by being there in the flesh. That's what the heck I am talking about.

Rescheduling an event like WWDC so close in, and moving it from San Jose to San Francisco is a pretty strong signal that Apple will be using this event to announce what they'd otherwise roll out at MW-NY. We already know about Panther. I'm guessing that ain't all we'll see.

elo

Mar 22, 2003, 12:26 PM

Catfish Man,

Sorry, I cannot further characterize my comments.

They do make sense though, don't they? ;-)

elo

jamilecrire

Mar 22, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Stike
Well, I know what irony is, thanks anyway. I just don´t want others to jump that quote and start an argument.

simX was right mostly, but regarding the "buy a Mac and upgrade then" program: It was neglected quite a lot by Apple when Jaguar came out. The upgrade time was only two weeks or something like that, many were upset.

The 10.2 update coupons are really there to get a discount if you buy 10.3 (or any other following paid upgrade). It is necessary that Apple supports it, though. I have those, too! :D
I just hope, I can use them on 10.3.

Actually it was that very day. I bought my first Mac (G4 Tower) in July of last year. The only reason I got the 10.2 upgrade is because they delayed my shipment until the 17th (2-3 days). But anyone who bought before the announcement day of July 17th was SOL. I just got lucky (sort of since I had to pay 19.95 + s&h to get Jaguar and the upgrade disk is ***** worthless since you cannot do a clean install from it, 10.1 has to be on the hard drive).

bousozoku

Mar 22, 2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
I know its not confirmed yet, but does everyone have to pay every year for an upgrade? What the heck! Thats weak.

How else would Apple get paid to do the point (10.2.x) releases?

Besides, 10.3 will be a $20 processing charge only.

shadowfax

Mar 22, 2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by bousozoku
Besides, 10.3 will be a $20 processing charge only.

what do you mean? and how do you know :D?

Stike

Mar 22, 2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by bousozoku
Besides, 10.3 will be a $20 processing charge only.

Now, I would REALLY like to see a source on this one! It would be nice... I just imagine this: What if .mac subscribers would get an OS discount??

simX

Mar 22, 2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Nope, wrong. The keynote was rescheduled from Tuesday to Monday just a few weeks before the event, which required no small amount of scrambling especially on the part of the media. After the keynote the press was escorted to the show floor for a special preview. Steve made it worth our while by being there in the flesh. That's what the heck I am talking about.

Um, forgive me, but moving an ENTIRE EVENT to a different date is something *VERY* different from moving a keynote _one_ _day_ ahead of schedule. The only reason that they moved up the keynote date was to coinicide with the release of that Time magazine showcasing the iMac, so that it wouldn't steal Steve's thunder (of course, we all know that Time Canada spilled the beans the night before anyway, and the rest is history), so there's no way you can relate the two. There would've been a G4 iMac anyway even if they didn't reschedule the keynote.

dongmin: I have doubts that Panther's final debut will be delayed as far as December. I'm betting they'll release it in late summer, like September or so. I DID understand that they were releasing a preview at WWDC, and that's what I said in my post if you read it. However, I doubt Apple would showcase a preview and then make everyone wait half a year for it. That's not Apple, and Apple has never done that except for with the initial release of Mac OS X.

Oh, and wwworry, Mac OS X already has journaling. Type "sudo diskutil enableJournal /" to start journaling on your hard disk. Type "sudo diskutil disableJournal /" to disable it again. The metadata issue is something else, but I definitely would NOT pay for just that, because it's a minor issue IMHO.

IJ Reilly

Mar 22, 2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by simX
Um, forgive me, but moving an ENTIRE EVENT to a different date is something *VERY* different from moving a keynote _one_ _day_ ahead of schedule. The only reason that they moved up the keynote date was to coinicide with the release of that Time magazine showcasing the iMac, so that it wouldn't steal Steve's thunder (of course, we all know that Time Canada spilled the beans the night before anyway, and the rest is history), so there's no way you can relate the two. There would've been a G4 iMac anyway even if they didn't reschedule the keynote.

Yes, quite right -- moving the ENTIRE EVENT to a different month and venue is an even more significant change. If history is any guide, Apple would not inconvenience so many people unless they had a darn good reason. I suspect this portends something; you think it portends nothing. I'm not sure why you are arguing so vehemently about this. We'll find out who guessed right in June.

york2600

Mar 22, 2003, 01:16 PM

This is what I did from when I was still in middle school and high school to afford copies of the Mac OS and not completely rip off Apple. I had a friend with a G3 at the time and he was also cheap and poor. I made like $20-80 and he made a bit more. SO:

Mac OS 7.6: Me
Mac OS 8.0: Him
Mac OS 8.5: Me
Mac OS 9.0: Him

We always bought them right when they came out and then we burned them. I like to think of it as the $50 discount. I didn't want to rip Apple off and just burn a copy every time. This way I was buying their software. In case you're wondering when I got a job I started buying my own copies. I bought a copy of Quicktime too. How many people can say they did that at 18.

nighthawk

Mar 22, 2003, 02:54 PM

Not only did they change the date, but the location as well... instead of San Jose, it is going to be in the Moscone center in San Francisco. Could this mean that the conference attendees were greater than what the San Jose conference center could hold (at least for the week in question)?

Also, it makes sense for Apple to delay the show from the aspect of allowing developers bring home a copy... the training sessions will be more focused on how to use the new features in 10.3 and would be not as useful if developers were not able to try it out. "We know you won't want to miss this in-depth information about the future of the Mac platform..." But even if Apple did not give all of the developers a preview release of Panther at WWDC, it does not matter because they would get one soon after anyways. One of the benefits of ADC membership is that you have both "software-seeding" and full versions of OS software disks regularly shipped to you through the ADC mailings.

It isn't just the OS that is new... but a new version of Quicktime seems to be coming also, and it might be that Apple needs just a little more time preparing the training materials for all of the new features that are coming out.

simX

Mar 22, 2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by simX
Anyhoo, I believe that the major reason for this change is to position WWDC as the summer keynote event. Yes, WWDC is aimed chiefly at developers, but Apple only wants to do one show per year for consumers, so it makes sense to have a major venue through which to announce new products (probably mainly software upgrades like Panther and such), even if it's not at a consumer event. They'll probably reserve "Apple Events" for major hardware upgrades.

If you had bothered to read the entirety of my original post (the relevant part quoted above), you'll see that I'm not arguing that it amounts to nothing, but that it amounts to nothing in terms of product announcements. Yes, there will probably be a lot of talk about Panther, about PPC 970s, and maybe some other stuff, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the date and venue were changed. Had they not been changed, the same stuff would've been talked about (even if developers couldn't get their hands on a preview release of Panther). Just like MWSF '02, the G4 iMac would still have been released even if the keynote was not moved up one day.

So I'll restate what I said above: Apple is trying to position WWDC as the summer Mac event. No, it will not be an event where there's a Jobs keynote and there's a bunch of new hardware announcements that gets rumor sites going. WWDC is going to remain positioned towards developers, but is still going to be a software announcement venue, and is going to be more of a "conference MacWorld". By that, I mean that it's going to be more of a hard-core get-into-the-guts-of-Mac-OS-X with a whole bunch of workshops to help people with specific parts of software development.

It's common knowledge that Apple no longer wants to do two CONSUMER trade shows per year, as I said before. This way, Apple has one DEVELOPER trade show and ONE consumer trade show, and everybody's happy. Think about it: if Apple simply wanted to delay WWDC in order to get a developer release of Panther out, would they have moved it to the Moscone center? No, they would've simply changed the date. The fact that WWDC this year is at the Moscone center suggests that Apple wants to expand WWDC.

nighthawk

Mar 22, 2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by simX
Think about it: if Apple simply wanted to delay WWDC in order to get a developer release of Panther out, would they have moved it to the Moscone center? No, they would've simply changed the date. The fact that WWDC this year is at the Moscone center suggests that Apple wants to expand WWDC.

I agree with you, but there is a very big difference between a MACWORLD conference where a 3rd party is in control and an OFFICIAL APPLE conference. It may be that Apple does (in the long run) want to take it's consumer conference the way they took over with retail. There is a great deal of money that can be made in these conferences for the promoters, but for WWDC will having a MacWorld-like atmosphere devalue the conference itself for developers?

Personally, I believe that there are two main reasons to move the conference... as I stated above, "Too many attendees for San Jose", or deciding to move back the date and San Jose was not available. Does anyone remember where the conference was last year?

Also the QuickTime conference is included in this year's WWDC, so it would be naturally larger than last years WWDC conference.

szark

Mar 22, 2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by nighthawk
Personally, I believe that there are two main reasons to move the conference... as I stated above, "Too many attendees for San Jose", or deciding to move back the date and San Jose was not available.

Well, San Jose is definitely not available during the week they chose (June 23-27).

As for too many attendees...we can only hope that's true. More attendees = more Apple developers = more software! :D

janey

Mar 22, 2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by rubikcube
Honestly, the people who are shelling out 1300 bucks to go to this thing are probably select or premier members of ADC. These guys get pretty much everything in the way of operating systems, including final releases.
Ummm those people with premier ADC memberships have a WWDC e-tix included with their membership :)
one of the great reasons to shell out US$3500...wwdc, software seeding, great discounts and more :D

scem0

Mar 22, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by melchior
i think apple will release 970 powermac's as soon as they can. if they are ready for wwdc, then they will be released at wwdc, or later, if they not ready (or not ready in the quantity to satisfy demand)

It would be crazy for them to not release them as soon as they
can. The current powermacs aren't selling, and everyone is
waiting for the 970. I'm hoping apple can put 2 and 2 together. ;)

totally_fly

Mar 22, 2003, 05:25 PM

they're not selling to lots of rumor site mac ppl.. but they are selling to others.. apple's still making sum bucks.. i think*

*does not mean i am right!!

IJ Reilly

Mar 22, 2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by simX
If you had bothered to read the entirety of my original post (the relevant part quoted above), you'll see that I'm not arguing that it amounts to nothing, but that it amounts to nothing in terms of product announcements. Yes, there will probably be a lot of talk about Panther, about PPC 970s, and maybe some other stuff, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the date and venue were changed. Had they not been changed, the same stuff would've been talked about (even if developers couldn't get their hands on a preview release of Panther). Just like MWSF '02, the G4 iMac would still have been released even if the keynote was not moved up one day.

So I'll restate what I said above: Apple is trying to position WWDC as the summer Mac event. No, it will not be an event where there's a Jobs keynote and there's a bunch of new hardware announcements that gets rumor sites going. WWDC is going to remain positioned towards developers, but is still going to be a software announcement venue, and is going to be more of a "conference MacWorld". By that, I mean that it's going to be more of a hard-core get-into-the-guts-of-Mac-OS-X with a whole bunch of workshops to help people with specific parts of software development.

It's common knowledge that Apple no longer wants to do two CONSUMER trade shows per year, as I said before. This way, Apple has one DEVELOPER trade show and ONE consumer trade show, and everybody's happy. Think about it: if Apple simply wanted to delay WWDC in order to get a developer release of Panther out, would they have moved it to the Moscone center? No, they would've simply changed the date. The fact that WWDC this year is at the Moscone center suggests that Apple wants to expand WWDC.

In effect, you've made my argument for me -- I agree, Apple is positioning WWDC as their summer event. And what usually happens at their summer event? Moving the event to the Moscone Center just to get Panther in the hands of developers? I agree, that's probably just a cover story. About what these things mean, I have my theory, you have yours. As for how you "know" all these things, either you should reveal the basis for your certitude, or admit you're just speculating like the rest of us.

You're getting kind of snotty here, and there really is no cause. Please don't try to take all the fun out of guessing.

Rincewind42

Mar 22, 2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
Ummm those people with premier ADC memberships have a WWDC e-tix included with their membership :)
one of the great reasons to shell out US$3500...wwdc, software seeding, great discounts and more :D

Well, the discounts are great if you can justify buying 10 computers a year :). If not, then Select is just fine for $500.

janey

Mar 22, 2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Rincewind42
Well, the discounts are great if you can justify buying 10 computers a year :). If not, then Select is just fine for $500.
i can justify buying 10 computers a year ;)
my mom can too, even better than i can :p

achmafooma

Mar 22, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Stike
Now, I would REALLY like to see a source on this one! It would be nice... I just imagine this: What if .mac subscribers would get an OS discount??

Now that's an idea. Actually I was thinking that if .Mac included FREE OS updates and free AppleWorks / iOffice / whatever updates, I would actually buy it.

As it stands now, I wouldn't make enough use of .Mac to justify the cost. Throw in subscriptions to these programs (and Quicktime Pro while you're at it), and consider Apple a yearly recipient of my $100 for all eternity.

Sounds like a reasonablye fee to always be on top of the curve without any surprise post-keynote expenses when things come out ;-)

simX

Mar 22, 2003, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
In effect, you've made my argument for me -- I agree, Apple is positioning WWDC as their summer event. And what usually happens at their summer event? Moving the event to the Moscone Center just to get Panther in the hands of developers? I agree, that's probably just a cover story. About what these things mean, I have my theory, you have yours. As for how you "know" all these things, either you should reveal the basis for your certitude, or admit you're just speculating like the rest of us.

You're getting kind of snotty here, and there really is no cause. Please don't try to take all the fun out of guessing.

Whoever said I wasn't speculating? I am. You just misinterpreted what I was saying, and there's no reason to misinterpret it again by saying I'm "snotty". I simply said that you probably shouldn't read anything into the moving the date/venue of WWDC on any product announcements, because they would've been made anyway.

Sheesh, you try to make a good case for a point and you get accused of being "snotty". No wonder I stopped posting in online forums.

ennerseed

Mar 22, 2003, 09:17 PM

It seems totally ligical that Panther will include clustering technology. That being the tech that allows parallel-computing thoough multiple computers. For instance the MacMPI, a Macintosh version of the Message-Passing Interface (MPI) library. (as talked about at Apple's website: http://www.apple.com/scitech/stories/york/index2.html)

One of the rumor sites a little while back posted a rumor that Apple was indeed working on clustering software... If I can find it I post it...

A quote from a Mac cluster study at USC:
"No evidence of an intrinsic limit to the size of a Macintosh cluster could be found, indicating that Macintosh clusters are capable of excellent scalability in performance."
The full results can be found at: http://www.daugerresearch.com/fractaldemos/USCCluster/USCMacClusterBenchmark.html

jettredmont

Mar 23, 2003, 03:44 AM

First, the date change, though I don't know why Apple didn't mention it at all, is also likely to have been influenced by the onset of war and the subsequent general halt of nonessential business travel (international of course but also within the US for most companies). I'm not sure what to make of Apple not placing this as *the* reason for the change other than that they want developers to hype themselves over Panther.

That having been said, a bit of recent history. Jaguar was previewed at last year's WWDC, all developers left with a copy of it, and the general release wasn't until August (word at WWDC was a release in "late summer"). Of course, that was far more important for developers as Jaguar brought with it GCC 3.x, which was a major update from Puma's 2.95 and getting that into developer's hands in beta form early was a very important move. And, of course, the kernel itself suffered a major upgrade going to 10.2 and POSIX compliance went from sketchy to relatively solid (about as solid as any *nix, although I still have gripes about socket binding ...). Panther will not have such a major dev tools update (gcc 3.3 is the main branch, with a bit of new functionality down deep but nothing like the 2.95-3.0 full STL implementation and pthread/posix support Apple finally fully exposed in Jaguar), and as far as I can tell no such major kernel update, but Apple might be adding something else major (what I won't even hazard to guess) to make it worth our and their while.

So, I can definitely see Panther previewing in June and not releasing until September. I am intrigued at both the reasoning behind adding a month to the pre-preview dev time (I mean, Jaguar was far from anywhere near polished when it was previewed last WWDC ... will Panther be even worse in May, or did Jobs get negative feedback that he wants to avoid this time? I didn't hear any negative feedback, and truthfully could have used earlier and more frequent updates to the preview tools last year, but I'm probably not wholly representative of the developer community :) ) Will there be something in the release (64-bit support APIs? Methods for handling 64-bit pointers? Revelation of how 64-bit ints will be handled in code ("long" or "long long"?) ... ???) that we need to start gearing our code towards six months in advance again?

Regarding the cost of Panther ... where is this coming from? Last I heard Apple was still sticking with its free/pay/free/pay update pattern. Has someone been saying otherwise?

scem0

Mar 23, 2003, 03:46 AM

do you think we will see iTunes 4 too?

I hope so. ;)

bennetsaysargh

Mar 23, 2003, 09:23 AM

This is a direct quote from the email i got.

Dear Developer,

We wanted you to be among the first to know that Apple has
rescheduled WWDC 2003 in order to provide attendees with a preview
CD and in-depth session coverage of the next major release of Mac OS
X, codenamed "Panther." WWDC will take place June 23-27 at Moscone
West in San Francisco, California.

developers will get a preview, not a final.

IJ Reilly

Mar 23, 2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by simX
Whoever said I wasn't speculating?

You did, I thought -- when you said, "it will not be an event where there's a Jobs keynote and there's a bunch of new hardware announcements that gets rumor sites going."

I interpret that kind of statement not as speculation, but as an indication that you know something nobody else does, or think you do. In fact the second half of that statements seems to me to be demonstrably incorrect, given the conversation we're have right now. The buzz around WWDC is even greater this year then last -- for a series of specific reasons.

Attempting to stay focused on the substance here: if the release of 970-based Macs is indeed imminent (which seems to be the consensus), what better place to put that hardware on the table, then WWDC? The developers will after all be the people with the earliest need to know, and if this hardware will indeed hit the market some time this year (which again, seems to be the consensus), time is rapidly running short for Apple to surface their new hardware roadmap.

Again, the change in timing and venue, as well as the confluence of other events, suggests that this won't be an ordinary WWDC. And just to be clear, I'm not forecasting that Apple will use WWDC as a venue to roll out new consumer products, but that they may choose to use it to announce when these products are coming. If they don't do this at WWDC in June, they'll have to schedule a special, freestanding event shortly thereafter, since it appears that Apple won't attend MW-NY in July or at the very least Jobs will not be keynoting that event. In this move you can see Apple thumbing their nose at IDG.

To the other matter, I'm simply trying to tell you that there's no need to make your points so aggressively. Just because I don't agree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm not "bothering to read" your posts.

ennerseed

Mar 23, 2003, 12:06 PM

I would also say there is a pretty good chance Panther will intergrate technology from FreeBSD 5.0, which was released 01/19/03, and supports 64 bit processors.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
This is a direct quote from the email i got...developers will get a preview, not a final.
that's from the ADC news thing...and just because Apple says that they're giving previews to developers doesn't mean that they're not ginna change their mind. :D

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
that's from the ADC news thing...and just because Apple says that they're giving previews to developers doesn't mean that they're not ginna change their mind. :D

otherwise known as lying? has apple done this at wwdc before?
that would be a really stupid, tacky move on their part. it would probably be a pretty strong blow to the 3rd party work going into the next OS too. I'd really have to stop bitching at Quark then, because apple wouldn't be much better.

bottom line--i don't think apple is going to go back on this.

szark

Mar 23, 2003, 01:57 PM

Actually, I think she meant they could change their minds and offer a full, finished version of Panther instead of the preview release.

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by szark
Actually, I think she meant they could change their minds and offer a full, finished version of Panther instead of the preview release.

i disagree--she was responding to a response that was reponding to a comment that stated we shouldn't get any illusions about this "preview"--that it doesn't necessarily mean devs will actually get anything in their hands. them releasing the final then--that seems like a real fantasy even to me.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by szark
Actually, I think she meant they could change their minds and offer a full, finished version of Panther instead of the preview release.
yah that's what I meant...I really want a finished, perfected copy of Panther at WWDC...:D

FattyMembrane

Mar 23, 2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by wwworry
Meta data and journaling are the only things I can think of that would be worth a paid update.
we've had meta-data since forever and journaling since 10.2.2. i do think that a new filesystem is in the works, but unlike microsoft's which is playing catch-up (and proclaiming wonderful new features that apple has had for years), apple's will be innovating. if the final version of webcore.framework is loaded at runtime and it includes opendoc (yeah, i know) i'll buy it in a heartbeat.

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
yah that's what I meant...I really want a finished, perfected copy of Panther at WWDC...:D

that's almost like one of those fantastical newbie posts we've been talking about! :p

if apple is delaying just to release the preview, i highly doubt they will have a final. they have a track record so far this year of pushing their deadlines to the limit and beyond (thinking 17 inch powerbook here).

psxndc

Mar 23, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by simX
Besides, if you DO get a new Mac, Apple usually offers an up-to-date program that allows you to get the newest major version of Mac OS X if it was released 1-2 months after you bought your Mac. Apple did that with Jaguar and Puma, and I see no reason why they won't continue that with Panther. So there's no real reason to put off buying a new Mac, either.

I bought a new iBook May 27th, approximately 3 months before Jaguar came out (though I think it was delayed a little so at the time it was going to have been only 2 months). My upgrade coupons didn't do jack. I was told multiple times by Apple customer service that they were good for upgrades from 10.1.3 (installed) to 10.1.4 and 10.1.5 if I decided to get the CDs for them. Thus, I needed to pay $130 3 months after buying my machine to get Jaguar. And if people say "If you don't need it, then don't buy it. No one forces you to upgrade" that's balogna (baloney). Just about everything coming out of Apple and even 3rd parties now require Jaguar. Sorry, but my iBook was my first Mac and as a "switcher" I felt like Apple was gouging me. If they had charged for iLife, I probably would have switched back.

I work as a software developer so I know upgrades help fund future development, but I also know that you take care of your existing clients/customers because they're the ones doing the upgrading.

-p

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
...they have a track record so far this year of pushing their deadlines to the limit and beyond (thinking 17 inch powerbook here).
don't even get me started on the 17" powerbook...WHAT THE HELL IS APPLE'S PROBLEM WITH DEADLINES!!!!!!
apple's somewhat good on the deadlines for software *crosses fingers*

ultrafiel

Mar 23, 2003, 02:42 PM

Ok this is speculation, but I think very probable ( some have mentioned some of these before). Some of the features I think will be in Panther:

iChat 2.0
Safari 1.0 (no beta)
x11 (no beta)
iTunes 4.0 (if not already out)

ya, I'm not going way out there, but I really can't think of anything else. I hope that Firewire networking is included, because I remember they posted a beta release of it, and then took it off their servers for the general public. I could really use that at work because ethernet is too slow to transfer big files. Using Firewire would be great though. Oh ya, and if Apple listens to my feedback they will update DVD player and allow us to take screenshots from it (yes I know you can do that with Snapz already and a few other programs). Oh and a gripe I have about iPhoto, I want to make a cross-platform CD backup of my library with it. Most of the people I know don't have macs, but when I made a CD to give to one of them it was HFS+ and didn't do me any good. I had to find the files I wanted and burn in Toast. Not hard, but annoying.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by ultrafiel
I hope that Firewire networking is included, because I remember they posted a beta release of it, and then took it off their servers for the general public. I could really use that at work because ethernet is too slow to transfer big files. Using Firewire would be great though.
if you sign up to be an ADC member (free), then you can get the IP over Firewire thing.
ipfw still can't beat gigabit ethernet though ;)

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
don't even get me started on the 17" powerbook...WHAT THE HELL IS APPLE'S PROBLEM WITH DEADLINES!!!!!!
apple's somewhat good on the deadlines for software *crosses fingers*
is there an example of apple announcing a preview and releasing a final instead?

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
is there an example of apple announcing a preview and releasing a final instead?
no. i can't think of any. but when they say they're gonna release (name of software) they usually do release it on the day.

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
no. i can't think of any. but when they say they're gonna release (name of software) they usually do release it on the day.

i fail to see how that is an argument for them releasing a final when they say they are releasing a preview. it sounds more like an argument against your statement. and how about iLife, just this year? they pushed the release date back like half a week.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
...and how about iLife, just this year? they pushed the release date back like half a week.
screw iLife.

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
screw iLife.

that's not argument. that's repudiation. i was legitimately discussing things with you, and the minute they went sour, you jumped ship with a wuss thing like that. you could have at least said, well that's just one example, there are lots of others, like x and x and x that released on time. why give up now? and if you are going to give up, don't belittle my argument that you don't have the guts to respond to reasonably. meh!

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
that's not argument. that's repudiation. i was legitimately discussing things with you, and the minute they went sour, you jumped ship with a wuss thing like that. you could have at least said, well that's just one example, there are lots of others, like x and x and x that released on time. why give up now? and if you are going to give up, don't belittle my argument that you don't have the guts to respond to reasonably. meh!
:: sticks out tongue ::
how about jaguar, OS X, and webobjects being released on time?!

nuckinfutz

Mar 23, 2003, 04:33 PM

It's fairly obvious that Panther Preview will be either displayed for given to the Developers. I doubt that Panther Final will be ready by WWDC. It'll probably be a version with much of the "suprise" stuff removed but enough new stuff to get working on products.

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
how about jaguar, OS X, and webobjects being released on time?!
that's more like it :D. sure, they will probably release this on time, but i'll be more than shocked if they release the final at WWDC.

i'm with nuckinfutz 100% on this one.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
that's more like it :D. sure, they will probably release this on time, but i'll be more than shocked if they release the final at WWDC.

i'm with nuckinfutz 100% on this one.
lol shadow sometimes...
anyway, i'm be very glad if apple releases the final at WWDC :D

bennetsaysargh

Mar 23, 2003, 05:17 PM

they would not give developers a full version of panther because they just demonstrated it. it would kinda be a stupid idea.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
they would not give developers a full version of panther because they just demonstrated it. it would kinda be a stupid idea.
a girl can still dream :: crosses fingers ::
i really hope apple still gives developers the final, full version of panther :D

bennetsaysargh

Mar 23, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
a girl can still dream :: crosses fingers ::
i really hope apple still gives developers the final, full version of panther :D
it's good too have dreams :o)

shadowfax

Mar 23, 2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
i really hope apple still gives developers the final, full version of panther :D

you're such a prima donna dev, baby! (http://www.echo23.com/domokun/) i don't think you're going to get it. that's BillyBob's world. :rolleyes: :p ;)

badika

Mar 23, 2003, 06:28 PM

Hey psxndc,
I know your 'pain'. I thought I was the only one caught in Apple's seemingly unfocused marketing efforts. My iBook 700 w/16mb of vram is still running on 10.1.4 more out of spite and frugality than logic. Since updating their iBooks last May, Apple has released a lot of software and services that only run on 10.2. I'm still a holdout until 10.3. Your statement about not taking care of their recent customers is actually working against their software sales efforts. I would've have bought the Jaguar upgrade at a more reasonable price in percentage to the cost of the iBook, and joined .mac, and thrown money at Keynote, if they only made me feel more like a valued customer. Instead, I feel more like a vulnerable 'installed base' number. But, I love the ibook.

Originally posted by psxndc
I bought a new iBook May 27th, approximately 3 months before Jaguar came out (though I think it was delayed a little so at the time it was going to have been only 2 months). My upgrade coupons didn't do jack.probably would have switched back.

I work as a software developer so I know upgrades help fund future development, but I also know that you take care of your existing clients/customers because they're the ones doing the upgrading.

-p

nickgold

Mar 23, 2003, 07:56 PM

It's funny to see people who think that the money they pay for a given item, is actually going to the promise of some future release which is included in the price they paid originally.

Wake up, kids -- this is the real world, and the reason why Apple is actually staying above water in this miserable economy is because, ohmahgawd, they have a reasonable business model that involves them actually _charging_ for the things they sell, unlike a lot of other companies that -- surprise surprise -- no longer exist (or have merged out of relevance *cough* HP/Compaq).

And to the person still using 10.1.5 on your iBook -- dude, get Jaguar, you will not be sorry. Just pretend you're paying for a processor/video card upgrade, which is what it will very much feel like. Plus all the other fun goodies.

nuckinfutz

Mar 23, 2003, 08:54 PM

Your statement about not taking care of their recent customers is actually working against their software sales efforts. I would've have bought the Jaguar upgrade at a more reasonable price in percentage to the cost of the iBook, and joined .mac, and thrown money at Keynote, if they only made me feel more like a valued customer. Instead, I feel more like a vulnerable 'installed base' number. But, I love the ibook.

Apple doesn't do this to spite customers but one always has to remember. It's Business never personal. Apple can only offer concessions to certain people. Just as a Manufacturer with a 90 day warranty knows that they will most likely lose a customer for life should their product fail on the 91st day and Warranty service cannot be done. It may have been better for you having an ibook to wait until 10.3 anyways. We'll know this summer.

I think the thing to remember is that Apple OS evolves much quicker than Windows. If we had the same update cycle as Microsoft we'd be in trouble because by nature Mac hardware is updated much slower than X86 hardware.

Threre will be disgruntled Jaguar purchasers once Panther comes out ...somehow they feel smitten at the thought that they're not running the "latest" but every person must decide when it's financially feasible to upgrade for themselves. Me I plan to have an 18month OS refresh. That means in 3 years i've only spent $260 or $87 per year. Will I always have the latest. No but I'll be the one installing the os after the bug fixes ;)

GutBomb

Mar 23, 2003, 09:41 PM

you know it may just be delayed so it does not interfere with another large trade show called E3 that is getting over about 2 days before the original start date of the WWDC. I am sure several of the developers slated to attend the WWDC will want a rest after e3 before going to the WWDC

MacBoy88

Mar 23, 2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by ultrafiel
Ok this is speculation, but I think very probable ( some have mentioned some of these before). Some of the features I think will be in Panther:

iChat 2.0
Safari 1.0 (no beta)
x11 (no beta)
iTunes 4.0 (if not already out)

ya, I'm not going way out there, but I really can't think of anything else. I hope that Firewire networking is included, because I remember they posted a beta release of it, and then took it off their servers for the general public. I could really use that at work because ethernet is too slow to transfer big files. Using Firewire would be great though. Oh ya, and if Apple listens to my feedback they will update DVD player and allow us to take screenshots from it (yes I know you can do that with Snapz already and a few other programs). Oh and a gripe I have about iPhoto, I want to make a cross-platform CD backup of my library with it. Most of the people I know don't have macs, but when I made a CD to give to one of them it was HFS+ and didn't do me any good. I had to find the files I wanted and burn in Toast. Not hard, but annoying.

If you go to http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/descriptions.html#hardware, ther is a paragraph about "firewire networking", but by the way it sounds it might only be FW800?

"Developing with FireWire 800 FireWire, the industry standard interface for digital video cameras and high-performance peripherals, is built into all new Macs. This year, Apple introduced FireWire 800, doubling the throughput for peripherals, and creating many new opportunities for developers. Learn how to support this revolutionary technology to provide customers with unmatched peripheral performance, reliability, and simplicity. Topics include an all-new Design Guide for FireWire, IP-over-FireWire protocol, and all-new tools for Mac OS X."

MacBoy88

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by MacBoy88
If you go to http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/descriptions.html#hardware, ther is a paragraph about "firewire networking", but by the way it sounds it might only be FW800?
that's only FW800 for developers...not IPFW for FW400 which is in the download section...

pev

Mar 24, 2003, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by RandomDeadHead
And what would these developers test their 64bit apps on?

Actually, this isn't so much of an issue as you may think!

A few years ago I ported some Solaris drives from 32-bit Sparc to a 64-bit Sparc architecture. Most of the effort was re-factoring the code to be '64-bit clean' and still working correctly on the 32bit CPU. This was maybe 80% of the effort, and doesnt actually require the target hardware. Once ported, theoretically it should just run ok on the larger arch. In my case this is exactly what happened.

Drivers and other code that talks to hardware are candidates for this sort of work. Applications on the other hand should pretty much just need recompilation (remember the toolchain will have had to be updated) and should work.

~Pev

IJ Reilly

Mar 24, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by pev
Actually, this isn't so much of an issue as you may think!

A few years ago I ported some Solaris drives from 32-bit Sparc to a 64-bit Sparc architecture. Most of the effort was re-factoring the code to be '64-bit clean' and still working correctly on the 32bit CPU. This was maybe 80% of the effort, and doesnt actually require the target hardware. Once ported, theoretically it should just run ok on the larger arch. In my case this is exactly what happened.

Drivers and other code that talks to hardware are candidates for this sort of work. Applications on the other hand should pretty much just need recompilation (remember the toolchain will have had to be updated) and should work.

Maybe, but even if the level of effort required is relatively trivial, at some point (real soon) Apple needs to actually announce a 64-bit hardware roadmap, or this effort won't occur. Right?

pev

Mar 24, 2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Maybe, but even if the level of effort required is relatively trivial, at some point (real soon) Apple needs to actually announce a 64-bit hardware roadmap, or this effort won't occur. Right?

Maybe... However I'd argue that most mac developers arent stupid and 'know' (assume!) that this is the case and are planning for this eventuality. Anyway, I was making the point that releasing a 64bit 10.3 *will* be of use to people porting apps, even if the hardware itself isnt available (the post I quoted). If 10.3 is announced as 64bit clean, then whether and when the hardware appears is a side issue - you can assume its incoming!

~Pev

jettredmont

Mar 24, 2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by psxndc
I bought a new iBook May 27th, approximately 3 months before Jaguar came out (though I think it was delayed a little so at the time it was going to have been only 2 months). My upgrade coupons didn't do jack. I was told multiple times by Apple customer service that they were good for upgrades from 10.1.3 (installed) to 10.1.4 and 10.1.5 if I decided to get the CDs for them. Thus, I needed to pay $130 3 months after buying my machine to get Jaguar. And if people say "If you don't need it, then don't buy it. No one forces you to upgrade" that's balogna (baloney). Just about everything coming out of Apple and even 3rd parties now require Jaguar.

I feel your pain. :)

However, just as a note so that you understand "why": Jaguar was a major kernel upgrade. While the overall UI didn't change a whole lot (imperceptibly to most non-zealots outside these boards), under the covers nearly everything changed. Also, the Cocoa API and capabilities of the development tools underwent an order of magnitude revision between Puma (10.1) and Jaguar (10.2), and many frameworks were shifted around to make more sense in a post-Classic POV.

This is why a lot of apps being released today are not 10.1 compatible. It's not an Apple-led conspiracy to make you buy Jaguar; it is simply because developing under and for Jaguar is much easier and hence cost-effective than developing for/under Puma or especially 10.0.

Personally, I don't expect the same massive sea-change in 10.3. I still don't see Apple saying (anywhere) that 10.3 might possibly be a paid update (and we have the Jaguar explanation that historically every other major release is paid while the others are free). However, I don't suspect Apple's third-party developers will push Panther like they have Jaguar, regardless of cost.