UK Airline Islamaphobia

[ZoomZoomZoom]

(CNN) -- The removal of two young British Asians from a holiday flight last week because fellow passengers were suspicious of them has been condemned by British parliamentarians.

The men, thought to be in their 20s, were on a Monarch Airlines flight from Malaga, Spain to Manchester last Wednesday. Some passengers refused to board the plane unless the two were removed, according to the UK Press Association.

The UK Islamic Human Rights Commission chairman Massoud Shadjareh said there was "ever-increasing Islamaphobia" and the incident was "exactly the type of thing we've been so concerned about," the PA reported.

Birmingham MP Khalid Mahmood said he thought what happened "is hugely irrational and people need to get their senses back into order."

A Monarch Airlines spokesman told Britain's Guardian newspaper the two men attracted attention because they apparently were acting suspiciously. He declined to say what they had done.

"The flight attendants were sufficiently concerned to alert the crew, who in turn informed the security authorities at Malaga airport," the spokesman said.

Flight delayed

The flight was delayed for three hours after Spanish police removed the two men and searched the aircraft and luggage for explosives. The pair flew to Manchester on a later flight.

The incident coincided with a warning from Metropolitan Police Chief Superintendent Ali Dizaei that Britain was in danger of creating a new offence of "traveling whilst Asian," the PA reported.

Dizaei, one of the UK's most senior Muslim police officers, said intelligence based on ethnicity, religion and country of origin was "hugely problematic."

But the UK's Police Federation, which represents rank-and-file police officers, said profiling had already been used to stop football hooligans traveling to Germany for the World Cup in June, the PA reported.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/20/monarch.passengers/index.html

Outrageous. What'll be next? I was kidding in my other post when I said that airlines would have to get rid of people in order to be completely terrorist-free, but it's scary to see it actually happen with profiling. If I'm not having a good day, and walk on an airplane, are they going to throw me off for looking like a suspicious North Korean spy? (I'm not Korean, but most non-Asians can't differentiate between the Asian races.)

[Eraserhead]

Totally outrageous, it makes me ashamed to be British. I assume they are getting upgraded to 1st class to fly with later.;)

[redAPPLE]

this is a serious problem. and i believe the only group of people, who could stop this are the ones that does the "scaring".

i would greatly appreciate it if the muslims (e.g. in britain) stand up and try to help fight these people, that plan attacks. this is one way they would be respected again.

unfortunately, i haven't seen any movement in the muslim front. or am i mistaken?

[FleurDuMal]

When I heard about this yesterday it really did send a shiver down my spine. It's symbolic of every prejudice that is being teased out of white British society by the post-9/11 mentality. When your average shades and sandals holiday makers are too frightened to board a plane because of the presence of muslims (suspicious behaviour my backside), it is the strongest possible signal that the British government need to rethink their language, their strategies and their alleigances in this 'War On Terror'. This incident indicates that our actions are being too easily misinterpreted as a war on Islam.

To compound the problem, the notion of Britain being engaged in a war on Islam only goes to feed and re-inforce the vicious extremist ideologies that the international community is combating.

[Jaffa Cake]

When your average shades and sandals holiday makers are too frightened to board a plane because of the presence of muslims (suspicious behaviour my backside)...Ah, but you don't even have to be muslim – just being Asian is apparently enough to get you chucked off a flight. :rolleyes:

I'm with you on that shiver.

[FleurDuMal]

i would greatly appreciate it if the muslims (e.g. in britain) stand up and try to help fight these people, that plan attacks. this is one way they would be respected again.


I agree with the premise that citizens of a democratic society have a duty to act with respect to those rights if they wish to enjoy them. However, I've never really understood the demand made of the British Muslim community that they 'help fight the terrorists'. In what way are they to aid this 'war'? Some people seem to harbour the illusion that everyone within a tightly-knitted muslim community knows those who advocate the use of terrorist tactics to revenge their grievances. Although not being part of a muslim community, I doubt this is true. When the identities of the London bombers were revealed, the general reaction of the community from which they hailed from (Beeston, in Leeds) appeared to be shock and disbelief. The only ones who appeared to know of the plot were those involved in the plot itself, not everyone who went to the same mosque or school, or lived on the same street as those men.

What worries me is that when people say the muslim community should do more to fight terrorism, they're implicitly saying that the muslim grievance against recent (and not so recent) Western atrocities in the Middle-East are not legitimate concerns, and if they are to do the decent thing and help fight the people who want to kill us in our planes, busses and tube trains, they must relinquish their grievances. This is effectively what Tony Blair said a couple of months ago - that the grievances of the terrorists are not legitimate and are part of the ideology of terrorism. That's rubbish. I and many other non-muslims share the grievances of the terrorists with regards to our actions in Iraq and at home. But that's not the ideology of terrorism. The ideology of terrorism is killing innocent life and attempting to harbour fear in order to achieve its political aims.

As long as the muslim community continues to express their revulsion to the actions of the British and American governments in a way which has respect for human rights which we hold dear (primarily, respect for human life), then we should be happy for them to express their grievances, regardless of how extreme. Fighting terrorism should not involve telling muslims that their grievances are dangerious and unwelcome. That will only fuel further atrocities.

[MOFS]

I agree with the premise that citizens of a democratic society have a duty to act with respect to those rights if they wish to enjoy them. However, I've never really understood the demand made of the British Muslim community that they 'help fight the terrorists'. In what way are they to aid this 'war'? Some people seem to harbour the illusion that everyone within a tightly-knitted muslim community knows those who advocate the use of terrorist tactics to revenge their grievances. Although not being part of a muslim community, I doubt this is true. When the identities of the London bombers were revealed, the general reaction of the community from which they hailed from (Beeston, in Leeds) appeared to be shock and disbelief. The only ones who appeared to know of the plot were those involved in the plot itself, not everyone who went to the same mosque or school, or lived on the same street as those men.

What worries me is that when people say the muslim community should do more to fight terrorism, they're implicitly saying that the muslim grievance against recent (and not so recent) Western atrocities in the Middle-East are not legitimate concerns, and if they are to do the decent thing and help fight the people who want to kill us in our planes, busses and tube trains, they must relinquish their grievances. This is effectively what Tony Blair said a couple of months ago - that the grievances of the terrorists are not legitimate and are part of the ideology of terrorism. That's rubbish. I and many other non-muslims share the grievances of the terrorists with regards to our actions in Iraq and at home. But that's not the ideology of terrorism. The ideology of terrorism is killing innocent life and attempting to harbour fear in order to achieve its political aims.

As long as the muslim community continues to express their revulsion to the actions of the British and American governments in a way which has respect for human rights which we hold dear (primarily, respect for human life), then we should be happy for them to express their grievances, regardless of how extreme. Fighting terrorism should not involve telling muslims that their grievances are dangerious and unwelcome. That will only fuel further atrocities.

Actually I think that they mean that Muslims should be more proactive in stamping out terrorism. As far as I can tell, this means they should be wary of any suspicious activities. Now, what with the authorities being seemingly inapproachable to Muslims because of the perception that all Muslims are perceived to be terrorists, you can see there's a problem.:o My feeling is that the contrast between "no more asylum seekers/ immigrants" and the "war on terror" (seemingly against only Islamic states) messages against the wish for a multicultural society is disillusioning too many people.

[Queso]

There was an interview with a couple who had been on the plane on the TV news this morning. When asked how the men were behaving suspiciously they answered "They were wearing heavy clothing when everyone else was in shorts and flip-flops, and they were speaking a language that could have been Arabic". The couple then went on to further justify their racism with the phrase "People were scared".

It sounds to me like people weren't scared at all, but hysterical, and the witchhunt against all muslims that the media has been wanting is now happening. What I find really scary is that the captain of the plane pandered to the prejudice rather than telling these idiots to abandon their Daily Mail worldview or walk home.

Mind you. Monarch Airlines. Need I say more? :rolleyes:

[MOFS]

There was an interview with a couple who had been on the plane on the TV news this morning. When asked how the men were behaving suspiciously they answered "They were wearing heavy clothing when everyone else was in shorts and flip-flops, and they were speaking a language that could have been Arabic". The couple then went on to further justify their racism with the phrase "People were scared".

It sounds to me like people weren't scared at all, but hysterical, and the witchhunt against all muslims that the media has been wanting is now happening. What I find really scary is that the captain of the plane pandered to the prejudice rather than telling these idiots to abandon their Daily Mail worldview or walk home.

Mind you. Monarch Airlines. Need I say more? :rolleyes:

It is getting ridiculous, and frightening. I was watching Richard & Judy, with this guy advocating that they should check mainly people looking like terrorists. The example he gave was why check the women with baby in a pram? Or Judy? To me, his implication was clear: he wanted to search Asian people with beards.:mad:

[FleurDuMal]

There was an interview with a couple who had been on the plane on the TV news this morning. When asked how the men were behaving suspiciously they answered "They were wearing heavy clothing when everyone else was in shorts and flip-flops, and they were speaking a language that could have been Arabic". The couple then went on to further justify their racism with the phrase "People were scared".

It sounds to me like people weren't scared at all, but hysterical, and the witchhunt against all muslims that the media has been wanting is now happening. What I find really scary is that the captain of the plane pandered to the prejudice rather than telling these idiots to abandon their Daily Mail worldview or walk home.

Mind you. Monarch Airlines. Need I say more? :rolleyes:

I also heard that they were 'checking their watches a lot'.

I would like to ridicule the evidence upon which the passengers of that plane made their judgements, but it seems such evidence was no less credible than that which has been used by the British and American administrations to conclude that Suddam Hussein had WMD's and that two seemingly normal muslim guys from Forest Gate were dangerous terrorists :rolleyes:

[FleurDuMal]

It is getting ridiculous, and frightening. I was watching Richard & Judy, with this guy advocating that they should check mainly people looking like terrorists. The example he gave was why check the women with baby in a pram? Or Judy? To me, his implication was clear: he wanted to search Asian people with beards.:mad:

Glenda Jackson wrote a very good piece for the Guardian about not only the moral failures, but the complete inadequacy of racial profiling as a security measure: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1851899,00.html

[Peterkro]

It wouldn't be the first time I awoke in a cold sweat after a nightmare about travelling on a package holiday flight with Sun readers.*pinches self* Holy **** this actually happened .:eek:

[Maxiseller]

The argument isn't really about profiling; its about the fact that to profile is seen as racist.

To be clear, I am not racist - but would I be happier knowing that security has the powers to search anybody they want without being branded "racist" because they searched 7 asian men, and only 3 white men? Of Course. Political correctness being a massive blundering slurge of red tape really does prevent logical course of action from being carried out.

One of you mentioned that a poor justification was "that he was heard speaking arabic". Why should he? We're living in a country that is England. Speaks the English language. There is nothing more infuriating than when a client (usually a family) comes into my office, talks to me in english and then talks in their native toungue amongst each other - when ALL can talk english. Why is this seen as appropriate behaviour?

I have been searched at Airports many a time, and never see it as a problem. If you have nothing to hide, and want to live safely then whether you're asian or not shouldn't make a difference.

[FleurDuMal]

One of you mentioned that a poor justification was "that he was heard speaking arabic". Why should he? We're living in a country that is England. Speaks the English language. There is nothing more infuriating than when a client (usually a family) comes into my office, talks to me in english and then talks in their native toungue amongst each other - when ALL can talk english. Why is this seen as appropriate behaviour?


So, say you're doing some travelling with a friend, and you're in France/Senegal/Algeria/French-Canada, and you are both by chance fluent in French because you both learnt it at school, would you be conducting all your conversations with each other in French, even though all through your life you've spoken to each other in English?!?

What about if you're on a plane in England and two Irish men are speaking Gaelic to each other. Should they be made to speak English?

Just because you find it infuriating that families speak in their mother tongue to each other in front of you, it is absolutely no reason to regard them as a security threat.

[Queso]

Political correctness being a massive blundering slurge of red tape really does prevent logical course of action from being carried out.
How is it logical to pander to racism, which is all profiling is? The whole idea disgusts me and it's only going to further alienate young muslims who are angry enough that we are still illegally occupying a middle eastern oil rich country.

You want logic? Bring the troops home. That's logical.

[ZoomZoomZoom]

So, say you're doing some travelling with a friend, and you're in France/Senegal/Algeria/French-Canada, and you are both by chance fluent in French because you both learnt it at school, would you be conducting all your conversations with each other in French, even though all through your life you've spoken to each other in English?!?

What about if you're on a plane in England and two Irish men are speaking Gaelic to each other. Should they be made to speak English?

Just because you find it infuriating that families speak in their mother tongue to each other in front of you, it is absolutely no reason to regard them as a security threat.

I agree, them speaking in Arabic is no justification. I live in America, but I commonly speak in Chinese. It's perfectly natural, and I would still naturally speak it even if there were some political problems between the US and China, because it's my native language.

No matter how anyone looks at the situation, it's a case of some serious racial profiling. Even though official word seems to be coming out that it was a mistake, it's troubling that those two men were forced off in the first place.

[mox358]

I don't agree with this, but I'm not going to be blind and say that its unbelievable that it's happening. This could happen to any group of people. Its unfortunate, but its human nature to be scared when you see the events that are happening around us.

If Americans were flying into say France or Germany and hijacking planes, planning to detonate explosives onboard, and making tapes that CNN was showing on the air where Americans threaten the way of life of another country you can bet that English speaking white guys would be getting the shaft just like these two did.

People tend to lump races together - its just what they do. Every member of a race is in a way a representative of their race. Its just sad that other members of their race are committing horrible crimes and killing innocent people. If they want to be upset about this, don't blame the people who are scared when they board a plane - they just want to get their family home safely. Blame the people who are hi-jacking planes and planting bombs. They're the ones who are making everyone on edge about being on the same flight as a "Islamic guy" or an "asian guy". The other people in their race are being really sh**** representatives right now and its not the fault of these guys.

Remember in school when someone broke something and the teacher didn't know who was guilty and therefore everyone in the class was punished. This scenario is similar, although I know its a long shot comparison. Thats the best way I can explain my thoughts on it.

[Uma888]

this is a serious problem. and i believe the only group of people, who could stop this are the ones that does the "scaring".

The media plays a big part in this...........:rolleyes:

[Queso]

The media plays a big part in this...........:rolleyes:
As Europeans we are statistically more likely to be run over by a bus than die in a terrorist attack, so by the media's logic we should all run away screaming when the number 243 to Waterloo approaches.

After all, you can't be too careful with these busses around. Potentially they are all killers :p

[MOFS]

As Europeans we are statistically more likely to be run over by a bus than die in a terrorist attack, so by the media's logic we should all run away screaming when the number 243 to Waterloo approaches.

After all, you can't be too careful with these busses around. Potentially they are all killers :p

I remember seeing a quote that even now, you are more likely to kill yourself than a terrorist kill you.

[Maxiseller]

I remember seeing a quote that even now, you are more likely to kill yourself than a terrorist kill you.

I once had a gran that was petrified of flying. "No" she'd say, "I'm not about to get on a plane and risk my life...god will take me when he thinks it is time" After explaining that planes are the safest form of transport around, and pilots are trained for many years she'd counterargue "Yes, but I'm not about to die because god thinks it's the pilots turn to go"

Now, ok - light humor indeed - but if people were less affraid to stand up and say "Here is the demographic that is likely to cause harm...don't be affraid to target those who look suspicious" I can't see there being a problem. People do it everyday regardless of ethnic origin. As somebody mentioned; teachers that think a particular gang of boys are naughty constantly shout at them for things that aren't their fault; it's human nature.

There may be more chance of me killing myself than dying in a terrorist attack, but try telling that to the families of people (many young) who hadn't had a chance to MAKE decisions for themselves.

[Maxiseller]

So, say you're doing some travelling with a friend, and you're in France/Senegal/Algeria/French-Canada, and you are both by chance fluent in French because you both learnt it at school, would you be conducting all your conversations with each other in French, even though all through your life you've spoken to each other in English?!?

What about if you're on a plane in England and two Irish men are speaking Gaelic to each other. Should they be made to speak English?

Just because you find it infuriating that families speak in their mother tongue to each other in front of you, it is absolutely no reason to regard them as a security threat.

I wasn't talking security. I was talking politeness from my perspective. I was talking about the fact we live in...erm, England; not anywhere else. It is one thing being a tourist speaking in the only tougue you know...it is another being able to speak the native language and sticking two fingers up at it and being rude. The answer in my case is that I make a point of saying "This is my office and you will speak English or go elsewhere".

Either way, the main point is that I'm not affraid to talk about these issues that people feel strongly about. Gosh, if I go to france I really try hard to speak french. I really do. It's polite.

Profiling isn't about making people feel unwelcome; it's also not about iraq; it's about keeping families safe. I KNOW that not all muslims are terrorists; but a heck of a lot of terrorists are muslims.

[calculus]

i don't want to get into profiling but the fact that this was a flight from Malaga to Manchester tells me everything I need to know about the majority of the passengers. If they weren't happy to fly then the airline should have asked them to leave not throw some innocent people off. This does not bode well.

[Maxiseller]

i would greatly appreciate it if the muslims (e.g. in britain) stand up and try to help fight these people, that plan attacks. this is one way they would be respected again.

unfortunately, i haven't seen any movement in the muslim front. or am i mistaken?

Well said.

[Queso]

Except Maxiseller you are talking about the tiniest, tiniest percentage of a large population. We really need to stop this ***** and grow up a bit. Treating people as a "potential" terrorist because of their skin colour is nothing more than pandering to the tabloids whilst alienating multiple ethnic groups. If there is reliable intelligence to suggest someone is a suspect, then fair enough, but to start a policy of presuming guilt until proven otherwise takes us back to the early 1980s and will end up with the same riots the policy caused back then.

I wasn't talking security. I was talking politeness from my perspective. I was talking about the fact we live in...erm, England; not anywhere else. It is one thing being a tourist speaking in the only tougue you know...it is another being able to speak the native language and sticking two fingers up at it and being rude. The answer in my case is that I make a point of saying "This is my office and you will speak English or go elsewhere".
When I'm down in Spain I will frequently fall back into English when talking to my partner. Some things are simply easier to communicate in your mother tongue. It isn't done out of rudeness, ibut the need to effectively get what you mean across in a way you know will be understood.

[FleurDuMal]

I wasn't talking security. I was talking politeness from my perspective. I was talking about the fact we live in...erm, England; not anywhere else. It is one thing being a tourist speaking in the only tougue you know...it is another being able to speak the native language and sticking two fingers up at it and being rude. The answer in my case is that I make a point of saying "This is my office and you will speak English or go elsewhere".


I was also taught it was polite not to stick your nose in where its none of your business. If a family want to talk to each other in a language that I don't understand, then it's no business of mine. Fair enough, if its your office, and you want to turn away business if the client is bilingual and chooses to speak his native language to his family, then that is your concern. But what they speak behind closed doors is their own business.

For me, personally, I think deciding to force people to speak English simply because we don't understand their mother tongue is a slippery slope. I don't really understand Islam, Christianity, Buddhism or Hindu, but I don't see that as justification for forcing the followers of such religions to relinquish their religions.

[Maxiseller]

For me, personally, I think deciding to force people to speak English simply because we don't understand their mother tongue is a slippery slope. I don't really understand Islam, Christianity, Buddhism or Hindu, but I don't see that as justification for forcing the followers of such religions to relinquish their religions.

Since when did religion become inexplicably tied to your choice of language?

It may be a slippery slope, but I'm taking it. I believe in my principals, which in my case is to treat my clients equally. I cannot agree that when I'm in a meeting situation and I've got clients who are talking amongst themselves in their mother tongue and I'm like "errr..." I shoud just put up with it. sorry.

It's just so rude!

[calculus]

I believe in my principals, which in my case is to treat my clients equally.
Equally badly by the sound of it!

[Maxiseller]

Except Maxiseller you are talking about the tiniest, tiniest percentage of a large population. We really need to stop this ***** and grow up a bit. Treating people as a "potential" terrorist because of their skin colour is nothing more than pandering to the tabloids whilst alienating multiple ethnic groups. If there is reliable intelligence to suggest someone is a suspect, then fair enough, but to start a policy of presuming guilt until proven otherwise takes us back to the early 1980s and will end up with the same riots the policy caused back then.


When I'm down in Spain I will frequently fall back into English when talking to my partner. Some things are simply easier to communicate in your mother tongue. It isn't done out of rudeness, ibut the need to effectively get what you mean across in a way you know will be understood.

I do agree - but...at what point does safety override fear of upsetting others? At what point do we say "enough have died at the hands of terrorists; we have to profile - I hope you don't mind". Hey; if they stopped trying to level the figures by doing searches on mothers and children so it doesn't look like they're profiling we'd have had much less chaos last week.

What i'm asking is this:

If the majority of terrorists are muslims, is it right to "pretend" to search perhaps a young mom of three so that it doesn't offend?

[Maxiseller]

Equally badly by the sound of it!

I find that most offensive.

I am extremely amiable - and I really do try and do a great job - but y'know - I work hard. And I like to be able to talk and understand what's going on! Thats why I live here! Surely you can understand that it isn't being racist...it's being logical.

[calculus]

I don't think I called you racist. I do know that I would be offended if you asked me to speak only in English. Just goes to show how easy it is to take offence.

[Maxiseller]

I don't think I called you racist. I do know that I would be offended if you asked me to speak only in English. Just goes to show how easy it is to take offence.

Maybe the source of everybodys problems is that we take offence too easily. I am going to retire now having said my piece. You're not telling me there isn't many other people feeling the same as I. It's just that we get panned. Meh.

[pdh1]

Actually the most disturbing thing about your posting is that in world filled with truly horrifying news, you choose to post this item.
Let’s recap, in the past month we had:

A plot to blow up government buildings and behead the prime-minister of Canada.
News of “Death Squads” going to Demark to kill cartoonists, of all people.
Hundreds of people killed by bombs on trains in India
The plot to blow 10 planes over the Atlantic
A plot to blow commuter trains in Germany.

All by Islamic terrorists.
And the typical leftist reply is “It is because of Iraq”.
Yeah right, Canada, German, and India?


It funny how someone like yourself will jump up to fight “Discrimination”, but never say a peep about tens of thousands of blacks killed by Arab militias in the Sudan.

Nope, your big source of outrage is two people getting kicked off plane who worried the other passengers.
Great priorities there.

Maybe those two should be upset with the people blowing innocent citizens in the name of their religion, instead of people who are just reacting the reality of the world they now live in.

[Queso]

Let’s recap, in the past month we had:

A plot to blow up government buildings and behead the prime-minister of Canada.
News of “Death Squads” going to Demark to kill cartoonists, of all people.
Hundreds of people killed by bombs on trains in India
The plot to blow 10 planes over the Atlantic
A plot to blow commuter trains in Germany.

All by Islamic terrorists.
I've added the emphasis that appears to be missing from your post. Muslims are not guilty (or merely suspects in some of those examples), terrorists are. You can go hide under the bed and demand that Governments penalise all muslims for this but I refuse to and I will oppose you in your call. Not because I'm a raving leftie terrorist-loving communist as you'd like to think, but because I think people who advocate tarring all with the same brush are using the politics of the playground rather than living in the real world, and creating more anger by discriminating blindly will only escalate what is currently a small problem into something far far worse.

And yes, despite what the UK/US Governments and our media want us to think, it is a small problem currently. Death on a large scale happens every day without any terrorist action. Here's (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0b28176c-3127-11db-b953-0000779e2340.html) one such example.

[FleurDuMal]

Actually the most disturbing thing about your posting is that in world filled with truly horrifying news, you choose to post this item.
Let’s recap, in the past month we had:

A plot to blow up government buildings and behead the prime-minister of Canada.
News of “Death Squads” going to Demark to kill cartoonists, of all people.
Hundreds of people killed by bombs on trains in India
The plot to blow 10 planes over the Atlantic
A plot to blow commuter trains in Germany.

All by Islamic terrorists.
And the typical leftist reply is “It is because of Iraq”.
Yeah right, Canada, German, and India?


It funny how someone like yourself will jump up to fight “Discrimination”, but never say a peep about tens of thousands of blacks killed by Arab militias in the Sudan.

Nope, your big source of outrage is two people getting kicked off plane who worried the other passengers.
Great priorities there.

Maybe those two should be upset with the people blowing innocent citizens in the name of their religion, instead of people who are just reacting the reality of the world they now live in.

So everytime you discuss Christianity you list every atrocity that's been committed in the name of Christianity throughout the course of history? No of course you don't, because you know that the percentage of Christians that are capable of such atrocity is incredibly minute. That's why everytime I talk about Islam I don't feel it necessary to mention the things listed above.

And if you seriously believe that Darfur wasn't discussed by those on the left, you must have been reading every newspaper upside down.

[iTwitch]

Totally outrageous, it makes me ashamed to be British. I assume they are getting upgraded to 1st class to fly with later.;)

Non-stop and one way to Cuba. :eek:

[pdh1]

"So everytime you discuss Christianity you list every atrocity that's been committed in the name of Christianity throughout the course of history?"

Wow, here we go back 500 years again. Do you have anything from this century to make these comparisons with?

How come I can be treated to mocking cartoon of Jesus on South Park every week, but you don't see Christians sending assassins to Comedy Central and demanding people be beheaded over it?

Please enlighten us how come there are not currently any groups of Hindus, Buddhists, or Christians with millions of followers ready to wage a violent "Jihad" on the infidels in the present day?

There is ABOLUTELY no comparison when is comes to violence preached in the name of religion when is comes to militant Islam today.

[Queso]

There is ABOLUTELY no comparison when is comes to violence preached in the name of religion when is comes to militant Islam today.
Well, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism) took me about three seconds to find :rolleyes:

[pdh1]

Well, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism) took me about three seconds to find :rolleyes:

How Convincing!

How about some current NEWS STORIES about these masses of 'Christian terrorists' as they storm the globe?


You know, stuff like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4782618.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5263930.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5271998.stm?ls

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4796873.stm

And my favorite:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/24/egypt.blasts/index.html

Roll them eyes!

[skunk]

Actually the most disturbing thing about your posting is that in world filled with truly horrifying news, you choose to post this item.Come now, there have been plenty of threads on all these subjects.
Let’s recap, in the past month we had:

A plot to blow up government buildings and behead the prime-minister of Canada.
News of “Death Squads” going to Demark to kill cartoonists, of all people.
Hundreds of people killed by bombs on trains in India
The plot to blow 10 planes over the Atlantic
A plot to blow commuter trains in Germany.

All by Islamic terrorists.Four of these five are unproven, and the fifth relates to Indian misbehaviour in Kashmir and elsewhere. Hindus have massacred many Muslims. I forget what point you were making...

[Queso]

Roll them eyes!
Whilst you paint all muslims with a terrorist brush I will do. You asked where the Christian violence was. If I'd looked longer than three seconds as you obviously have done, I would have found more examples. That, in three seconds, was the best I came up with.

The sad thing is you don't seem to even get why there currently is more Islamic terrorism than Christian. Home grown British boys don't suddenly become terrorists just because they are muslims, as you ignorantly believe. They do it because something has angered them to the point where they feel they want to act. Maybe that anger is down to US troops being on Saudi soil and one-sided support for Israel (the reasons for 9/11), or because of an illegal occupation of a muslim country that was no threat but had lots of oil (the reason for 11-M, Bali and 7/7).

To really win this "War on Terror", we need to understand what we're fighting against. At the moment, Western Governments are playing right into the extremists hands and making them look heroic to impressionable young minds, thereby creating even more terrorists. Their inability to see this makes me think either our Governments are completely stupid, or they are purposefully striving to make the situation worse than it currently is. Just imagine if the situation was reversed, and a muslim superpower that you had no conventional capability to fight was treating you and yours like ******, all the time telling the world that you were the evil ones. Would you take up arms? Maybe not, but there's plenty of Christian extremists that would do.

[FleurDuMal]

Wow, here we go back 500 years again. Do you have anything from this century to make these comparisons with?

How about George Bush invading Iraq because God told him to?

[eenu]

Hmmm, firstly i don't really see CNN as a good media source. Thats just my opinion i know others will contest that.

Secondly. I'm sure i read that these men were meant to be acting suspiciously but instead concentrating on that part of the story they concentrate on the fact its 'Islamaphobia'!

Sorry but if i saw anyone looking suspicious on an aircraft i would report no matter of their colour etc

[Queso]

Secondly. I'm sure i read that these men were meant to be acting suspiciously but instead concentrating on that part of the story they concentrate on the fact its 'Islamaphobia'!
That's the whole point though. Imagine you're in a room. All of a sudden everybody is giving you aggressive looks and you become aware that several people are talking about you behind their hands Wouldn't you act nervously and start glancing at your watch? At what point did the rising hysteria of the other passengers towards the "funny talking beardy towelheads" start influencing their behaviour?

[eenu]

That's the whole point though. Imagine you're in a room. All of a sudden everybody is giving you aggressive looks and you become aware that several people are talking about you behind their hands Wouldn't you act nervously and start glancing at your watch? At what point did the rising hysteria of the other passengers towards the "funny talking beardy towelheads" start influencing their behaviour?

Actually knowing me i would ask them what their problem is :rolleyes:

[caveman_uk]

...the fifth relates to Indian misbehaviour in Kashmir and elsewhere. Hindus have massacred many Muslims.
Which of course makes it OK to blow up trains.

On the subject of racial profiling. Answer me this. What is the point of searching a white, old aged pensioner when the majority of the terrorist suspects have been young asians (I know, not all have been)? During the IRA bombing campaigns asians wouldn't have been searched. Why? Because the perceived threat was from white people with Irish accents. I can't recall a whole lot of moral indignation and accusations of racism at the time. Maybe the only reason everyone is up in arms here is because this time the people being searched aren't white?

[pdh1]

How about George Bush invading Iraq because God told him to?

When did he say that?
You people just toss stuff out there with nothing to back it up.

Hello, John Kerry there?

[skunk]

When did he say that?June 2003.
President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals.

In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.

Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Abu Mazen was at the same meeting and recounts how President Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

[Queso]

So how about this nice wholesome lad, would you search him?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/775000/images/_778643_copeland150.jpg

[Thanatoast]

People tend to lump races together - its just what they do. Every member of a race is in a way a representative of their race. Its just sad that other members of their race are committing horrible crimes and killing innocent people. If they want to be upset about this, don't blame the people who are scared when they board a plane - they just want to get their family home safely. Blame the people who are hi-jacking planes and planting bombs. They're the ones who are making everyone on edge about being on the same flight as a "Islamic guy" or an "asian guy". The other people in their race are being really sh**** representatives right now and its not the fault of these guys.
Which race are you referring to? The human race? The Muslim race? The possibly-arabic-speaking race?

Instead of profiling Muslims we should be profiling terrorists. Being suspicious of everyone who looks different just because they do is a piss-poor way to catch actual criminals, and a great way to legitimately anger the innocent.

W has done a great deal of harm by treating everyone as criminals and pushing the "if you're innocent, why do you care if we knock on your door at midnight" line. Should these non-english-speaking, dark-skinned vacationers thank their fellow passengers for singling them out based solely upon the above mentioned characteristics? Oh, and the highly-suspicious watch-checking in an airport? Goodness, think if one of them had started to read the Koran as they waited to board the plane, there might have been a riot!

Bottom line, racial profiling is stupid. Criminal profiling works much better. Morons shouldn't be allowed to decide who gets to ride the plane, but unfortunately they're voting morons, and they elect their own kind.

If only we had stupid-profiling.

[pdh1]

June 2003.
[/indent]http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml


OH yeah, that's great source alright.

So when Al Jizz-sara tv reports the US is stealing organs from men in Iraq to give to old Jewish people, we should believe that too. Just like the pig cartoons, HA!

[pdh1]

. Home grown British boys don't suddenly become terrorists just because they are muslims, as you ignorantly believe. They do it because something has angered them to the point where they feel they want to act.

So many problems here.

There have been plenty of clerics in England that have preached hatred of other religions prior to anything happening Iraq. In fact, one charming fellow has stated over and over that ALL of England should be ruled by Islamic law.

[Queso]

So many problems here.

There have been plenty of clerics in England that have preached hatred of other religions prior to anything happening Iraq. In fact, one charming fellow has stated over and over that ALL of England should be ruled by Islamic law.
As you're so fond of posting, source?

[aquajet]

I am extremely amiable - and I really do try and do a great job - but y'know - I work hard. And I like to be able to talk and understand what's going on! Thats why I live here! Surely you can understand that it isn't being racist...it's being logical.

Sometimes people grow up speaking languages other than English. Other times, these same people will also learn English, although they still might feel more comfortable discussing complex ideas amongst themselves in their native language. Surely you can understand that it isn't an attempt to be disrespectful...it's being logical.

[skunk]

There have been plenty of clerics in England that have preached hatred of other religions prior to anything happening Iraq.Link, please.
In fact, one charming fellow has stated over and over that ALL of England should be ruled by Islamic law.It's an opinion. He's entitled to it.

[caveman_uk]

It's an opinion. He's entitled to it.
Would he be entitled to his opinion if he also believed you (yes you, specifically you) are a legitimate target for a martyrdom operation because you live in the same country as Tony Blair?

[Queso]

Would he be entitled to his opinion if he also believed you (yes you, specifically you) are a legitimate target for a martyrdom operation because you live in the same country as Tony Blair?
So are extremist clerics just going through the phone book to pick their targets now? How do you come up with this stuff?

[eenu]

OH yeah, that's great source alright.

So when Al Jizz-sara tv reports the US is stealing organs from men in Iraq to give to old Jewish people, we should believe that too. Just like the pig cartoons, HA!

Oh well he is banned now but i'd just like to say that the BBC is probably one of the best news sources in the world. I'm not just saying that because i am located in the UK either.

[caveman_uk]

So are extremist clerics just going through the phone book to pick their targets now? How do you come up with this stuff?
Or it could be you. I presume you do use public transport in London? The point was they won't go around saying 'Everyone who thinks Tony Blair's a dick get off at the next station.' Your views won't matter. If you're there you're dead too.

[Queso]

Or it could be you. I presume you do use public transport in London? The point was they won't go around saying 'Everyone who thinks Tony Blair's a dick get off at the next station.' Your views won't matter. If you're there you're dead too.
You see that's the thing. I've been living with this stuff since I moved to London in 1995. The closest I came to being involved to something was the Aldwych bomb, although I was also on the Circle Line on 7/7 heading down to Aldgate and my friend Nick was sadly killed in the Soho bomb.

And yet I'm not phased by this "terrorist threat", because in a city of 8 milliion people the chances of you being involved are actually massively in your favour. You can either go hide under the bed as a quiverring wreck or get on with life.

As for Tony Bliar, yeah he's a dick. Off topic maybe, but I'm not passing up an opportunity to say it.

[caveman_uk]

As for Tony Bliar, yeah he's a dick.
At least we agree on something ;)

[skunk]

Would he be entitled to his opinion if he also believed you (yes you, specifically you) are a legitimate target for a martyrdom operation because you live in the same country as Tony Blair?Yup. He wouldn't be entitled to do anything about it, though. But I'm certainly not voting for any dick who thinks Iraq was a Good Idea.

[solvs]

I'm amazed that suddenly now these things have become justifiable. The terrorists wanted to make us afraid because that's what they do, the media and politicians more than happy to help that fear survive because they gain from it as well. So we let them win. We live in fear. Willing to let our rights, or worse the rights of others, go out the window because of that fear. We check everyone because it could be anyone. Just ask Tim McVeigh. We have to make it random, so that anybody could be checked at any time. Also so that terrorists can't strap bombs to little kids and old ladies in wheelchairs. So that we aren't just checking all Muslim men, because not all Muslim men are guilt any more than everyone else are innocent. But some of you don't see that. You say we should check everyone who "looks" like a terrorist. That's a scary prospect.

I don't even know how to argue with people who think like this, but apparently there are a lot of you.

[Music_Producer]

this is a serious problem. and i believe the only group of people, who could stop this are the ones that does the "scaring".

i would greatly appreciate it if the muslims (e.g. in britain) stand up and try to help fight these people, that plan attacks. this is one way they would be respected again.

unfortunately, i haven't seen any movement in the muslim front. or am i mistaken?

Maybe you need to read the news more? It was a tip off from the muslim community which lead to the arrests of the 'bombers'. Maybe one day, when the muslim community really decides not to help at all.. thats when the real terror will begin.

When the president of our country uses terms like "Islamic Fascists" .. its not exactly doing much to reduce tensions.

[ZoomZoomZoom]

Actually the most disturbing thing about your posting is that in world filled with truly horrifying news, you choose to post this item.
Let’s recap, in the past month we had:

A plot to blow up government buildings and behead the prime-minister of Canada.
News of “Death Squads” going to Demark to kill cartoonists, of all people.
Hundreds of people killed by bombs on trains in India
The plot to blow 10 planes over the Atlantic
A plot to blow commuter trains in Germany.

All by Islamic terrorists.
And the typical leftist reply is “It is because of Iraq”.
Yeah right, Canada, German, and India?


It funny how someone like yourself will jump up to fight “Discrimination”, but never say a peep about tens of thousands of blacks killed by Arab militias in the Sudan.

Nope, your big source of outrage is two people getting kicked off plane who worried the other passengers.
Great priorities there.

Maybe those two should be upset with the people blowing innocent citizens in the name of their religion, instead of people who are just reacting the reality of the world they now live in.

Thank you, forum police.

From information gathered at this moment, the two passengers weren't being suspicious apart from speaking in their native language. Do they have any fault? The vast majority of the Muslim world isn't ready to strap on explosives and embark on Jihad.

This story isn't about a security compromise. It's about racial profiling of two men by paranoid passengers, and the gall of the airline to actually remove two absolutely innocent people.

[solvs]

Iraqi Peace Activist Forced to Change T-Shirt Bearing Arabic Script Before Boarding Plane at JFK. (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/21/1348224)

How dare he... um, be Arabic. :rolleyes:

[it5five]

One of you mentioned that a poor justification was "that he was heard speaking arabic". Why should he? We're living in a country that is England. Speaks the English language. There is nothing more infuriating than when a client (usually a family) comes into my office, talks to me in english and then talks in their native toungue amongst each other - when ALL can talk english. Why is this seen as appropriate behaviour?



It is a poor justification. The two men were talking to EACH OTHER on a flight, since they were probably traveling together. Why should they have to talk in a language that isn't their native language when it is just them two in the discussion? Should the whole flight be allowed to hear private conversation of two people just because they're a different color?

It's seen as appropriate behavior because people that aren't racist (and even though you prefaced your post with "I'm not racist, but...", you are racist) realize that English isn't the only langauge spoken throughout the world. In your case, the whole family might not know English as well as some, so they talk in their native language to help those out that can't speak English as well as the others.

To what someone else said, it isn't the entire muslim communities responsibility to prove they aren't terrorists. It's the entire society's responisbility to not be racist profiling assholes that are scared at the sight of anything different from them. Would it be fair if I based my entire perspective of British people upon those in the thread that are racist? No, it wouldn't, just as it wouldn't be fair to base judgement upon muslims because a few are terrorists.

[beatsme]

in all fairness to the passengers who demanded the removal of the two men, it's hard to get a good impression of the two guys without having been there. If the two guys were young-ish, dressed in kaffiyehs, and were having an animated conversation in Arabic (one that suggested they were nervous or in some way had the adrenalin flowing), I think the other passengers would probably be justified in having some concern for their own safety.

the racial profiling...certainly not a positive thing. I don't like it, but I understand it...

[Dagless]

in all fairness to the passengers who demanded the removal of the two men, it's hard to get a good impression of the two guys without having been there. If the two guys were young-ish, dressed in kaffiyehs, and were having an animated conversation in Arabic (one that suggested they were nervous or in some way had the adrenalin flowing), I think the other passengers would probably be justified in having some concern for their own safety.

the racial profiling...certainly not a positive thing. I don't like it, but I understand it...

That's where I stand too. I would have been scared if I was on the plane, in light of recent events. Hell if anyone had an animated conversation before getting on a plane I would be suspicious, or just plainly worried. I'm sitting in a flying missile for Christ's sake. I don't want an overexcited character doing anything up there.

If people want Islamaphobia to go away the terrorists should just stop. Simple as! Theres no point in saying

terrorist "I'm going to blow you up! in the name of *forgotten*"
public "ahh oh no!"
Islamic man gets on plane "ahhh! he's a terrorist!"
terrorist "now I shall blow you up because you treated him wrong"

See the problem?

[Lau]

That's where I stand too. I would have been scared if I was on the plane, in light of recent events. Hell if anyone had an animated conversation before getting on a plane I would be suspicious, or just plainly worried. I'm sitting in a flying missile for Christ's sake. I don't want an overexcited character doing anything up there.

Ooh, no, of course not. Terrorists are well known for being hugely excitable. And I have heard that having animated conversations is, in fact a threat to peace, safety, and all that is proper in the world.

:rolleyes:

and again

:rolleyes:

As I said in another thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2778061&postcount=21) about ridiculous and, frankly, rather racist overreactions to some poor guys who were just getting on with it:

People really need to stop jumping at shadows and stop being idiots about this. The guy who blows up your plane, or gasses your train, or does something else worse that you never imagined, is going to be a guy standing in the background in neutral clothes like we're wearing, who will be polite, and will be standing there patiently in line while a whole load of other passengers attack a guy who looks a bit funny, according to their slightly prejudiced views.

People with views like yours scare the **** out of me. Seriously. Much, much more than any terrorist can.

[mactastic]

People with views like yours scare the **** out of me. Seriously. Much, much more than any terrorist can.
Heh... indeed. In this country it's the supposedly-tough righties that are acting like babies in situations like this.

They're scared of anything different from them, they beg to surrender rights in the name of security, they profess fear and tend to want to lash out physically or militarily at any person or nation that doesn't see eye to eye with them.

It's awfully sad to see someone act like that.