No more Safari leaks [Archive]

vniow

Mar 22, 2003, 08:42 PM

Wow that sux, you would think they were just letting it slide so that they could get free feedback but I guess not.http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=252654

Just seems silly to me that they didn't release them all pubicly, what have they got to lose, bandwith costs?

Ah well, v67 seems ok for me, I guess........

<patiently waits for next version>

bousozoku

Mar 22, 2003, 08:46 PM

They apparently didn't feel that those were ready for public consumption--that the problems needed a more savvy user or programmer to deal with failures until the next public release.

MrMacMan

Mar 22, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by bousozoku
They apparently didn't feel that those were ready for public consumption--that the problems needed a more savvy user or programmer to deal with failures until the next public release.

haha.

Freg3000

Mar 22, 2003, 09:45 PM

I guess we brought this upon ouselves. Every leaked beta was spread around so quickly, Apple had to do something. I just wish it wasn't this. But Apple shouldn't slow down development in order to ensure that the public won't get unreleased builds. That is just plain stupid in my opinion.

Oh well. Hopefully that June 30, 2003 beta expiration for Safari still holds true. :)

mac15

Mar 22, 2003, 10:12 PM

wouldn't you think the more we get it, the more feedback they'd recieve, I'm sure they recieved a heaps of stuff about v64 and how crap it was.

Vlade

Mar 22, 2003, 10:18 PM

Maybe this means more public releases :)

I am using v67 and I dont see why apple didnt release it to the public...

benixau

Mar 23, 2003, 01:22 AM

i do, look at the attach file for macrumors - it dont work. did under v60

edesignuk

Mar 23, 2003, 06:39 AM

Two words...

...that sucks!

kjottbein

Mar 23, 2003, 06:47 AM

i tried version 67 too, and it didn't work at all; it quit when I chose New Window from the File menu.

But what was interesting, was that it was half-localized to norwegian (because of my norw. os version). Previous versions have been english only. Lots of "localization string not found", though. Maybe an OS update is needed before it works properly. :)

Also, it broke my favorites in safari 64, i think it moved them to another folder named something else in norwegian. god knows what.

NavyIntel007

Mar 23, 2003, 10:07 PM

If Apple wasn't like freakin Fort knox all the damn time they wouldn't have to worry about it.

janey

Mar 23, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
If Apple wasn't like freakin Fort knox all the damn time they wouldn't have to worry about it.
dude what is your problem? apple didn't even have to make a program like Safari!
The more buggier and newer builds were for developers to check out and fix, not for people like you to play with, yell about the bugginess of the program and send bug reports.
There's a reason why Apple has a developer seed program :rolleyes: :o

NavyIntel007

Mar 23, 2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
dude what is your problem? apple didn't even have to make a program like Safari!
The more buggier and newer builds were for developers to check out and fix, not for people like you to play with, yell about the bugginess of the program and send bug reports.
There's a reason why Apple has a developer seed program :rolleyes: :o

Releasing regular nightly builds never hurt Mozilla or the Camino projects.

janey

Mar 24, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Releasing regular nightly builds never hurt Mozilla or the Camino projects.
So? Safari isn't really open source and even if it was Apple doesn't have to release nightly builds.

eyelikeart

Mar 24, 2003, 12:17 AM

ha ha...this is no surprise...

I'm sure Apple has seen the numerous posts regarding the latest seeds of Safari and all of the unqualified users with it... :rolleyes:

bousozoku

Mar 24, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by mac15
wouldn't you think the more we get it, the more feedback they'd recieve, I'm sure they recieved a heaps of stuff about v64 and how crap it was.

Now that is incredibly helpful feedback. I'm sure that's just the kind of feedback they were really seeking to avoid.

Enthusiasm does not equal helpfulness. :rolleyes:

maxterpiece

Mar 24, 2003, 01:40 AM

Except what about damage control - what if there's a serious problem that causes safari to meddle with the system in a serious way? Now, suddenly, Apple has to deal with all these inexperienced mac users whining about their computers on apple help lines and support pages. Even if Apple said they would not provide any support for these beta versions, it is unrealistic to think that they will not have to deal with a serious problem if it affects mac users on such a large scale.

MacsRgr8

Mar 24, 2003, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by maxterpiece
Except what about damage control - what if there's a serious problem that causes safari to meddle with the system in a serious way? Now, suddenly, Apple has to deal with all these inexperienced mac users whining about their computers on apple help lines and support pages. Even if Apple said they would not provide any support for these beta versions, it is unrealistic to think that they will not have to deal with a serious problem if it affects mac users on such a large scale.

Correct. At first I also thought why not post nightly builds? Get as much feedback as possible! But like stated above, I'm pretty sure that Apple would be facing more support-problems than feedback.... if ya know what I mean.
Still, I think it's a pity. It was fun keeping up to date with Apple's gr8 browser.

Vroem

Mar 24, 2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by kjottbein
i tried version 67 too, and it didn't work at all; it quit when I chose New Window from the File menu.

But what was interesting, was that it was half-localized to norwegian (because of my norw. os version). Previous versions have been english only. Lots of "localization string not found", though. Maybe an OS update is needed before it works properly. :)

Also, it broke my favorites in safari 64, i think it moved them to another folder named something else in norwegian. god knows what.

I noticed the same thing (in Dutch). The fact that Safari is translated probably means that no new features are planned and that we will see the final version soon.

Also I noticed that Safari works fine if you set english as language in system preferences. Other languages seem to crash Safari.
EDIT
Just remove (inside Safari.app) /Contents/Resources/CrashingLanguage.lproj
/EDIT

Seems that Apple leaked 1 build too much.

gopher

Mar 24, 2003, 05:59 AM

Remember the first Safari build was very buggy, deleting many people's /tmp directory. We don't want another fiasco like that again.

Kid Red

Mar 24, 2003, 09:45 AM

67? Hmm, so I guess all those 'smart' guys who so aggressively defended and declared without any knowledge that ALL Safari builds were by 2's (60, 62, 64, etc) are feeling pretty STUPID right now as noted in the Safari 65 thread.

A real shame. I was enhjoying the seeded program and it's a shame that almost every verrsion was leaked or info about each.

Hmm

Mar 24, 2003, 09:47 AM

I don't know why some people are so upset about this. Apple didn't say there wouldn't be any more public betas, just no more seeds to developers. Kinda sucks from a developer standpoint, but Apple had no other choice.

Kid Red

Mar 24, 2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Hmm
I don't know why some people are so upset about this. Apple didn't say there wouldn't be any more public betas, just no more seeds to developers. Kinda sucks from a developer standpoint, but Apple had no other choice.

People are upset because now they won't get leaked builds, or leaked info on the beta software. I was a seeded beta tester for Safari and I'm saddened that some idiot had to leak the latest build to get the beta program shut down. I hadn't received an email for the 67 build so that guy must've done it immediately after the email because I never got an email or a chance to download the build.

The seeded program has been shut down as I logged into the program to find more info.

boobers

Mar 24, 2003, 01:58 PM

well....nah i won't...you know who you are...

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by boobers
well....nah i won't...you know who you are...

it's not like they were releasing them anyway. they will get the final out either way, don't worry. if they can't take the leaks, they'll have to do more work themselves. that's the consequences for being a control freak.

AmbitiousLemon

Mar 24, 2003, 05:53 PM

Its always one step forward and two steps back with Apple.

They seem to embrace the open source community (by using an open source core and many other projects) but then act like this.

The KDX community was already getting angry about Apple's use of khtml without adding any of their changes back to khtml. We have an uproar over Darwin. Apple banning contributions from people under 18. And now this mess.

Apple has embraced open source more than any other public company and I give them credit for it, but my guess is there is some internal conflict over how far to take it. Situations such as these are evidence of it.

What harm does it cause to distribute beta builds of your free software when you have already decided to release some betas. Many people have been asking why all these developer seeds weren't made public. Seems Apple did this to themselves. They release a beta. had problems with it decided to only release limited betas (to developers) after that, found that those were leaked and is now shutting the whole thing down.

Apple has a right to keep private what they want to keep private, but I am just saying they are being stupid.

The Mozilla project and sourceforge have shown that open source is a viable option. You release puclic betas and have nightlies, cvs, which only advanced users can have access to. This allows novice users a peek at stable betas and advanced users access to the rest in order to imprve them. This has been a working solution for a very long time.

Anyone who reads Hyatt's blog can see how much great feedback he is getting. And not all of it is from people who were developers.

This is Apple cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Boo Apple!

[btw i don't use Safari and don't plan to so i'm not just upset because this effects me — it doesn't effect me except in setting a negative future precident)

edenwaith

Mar 24, 2003, 05:57 PM

Certainly not too unexpected. I will support Apple on this matter since the leaked versions of Safari have been fairly wide spread.

However, I would be interested in knowing Apple's criteria to release a public beta. What separates the first and second public betas from the intermediate betas?

And on a side note, if I recall correctly, today is the 2nd anniversary of Mac OS X's release. :)

boobers

Mar 24, 2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon

The KDX community was already getting angry about Apple's use of khtml without adding any of their changes back to khtml. We have an uproar over Darwin. Apple banning contributions from people under 18. And now this mess.

What does KDX have to do with this?

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by boobers
What does KDX have to do with this?
is that like KDE? KDE is the UI that makes Konqueror, the web browser that has the same basic core as Safari... i think AL is saying that they are mad that Apple took KHTML and changed it, and failed to share those changes with the rest of the community, which is the whole idea behind open source.

AmbitiousLemon

Mar 24, 2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by boobers
What does KDX have to do with this?

oops. I meant KDE.

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
[btw i don't use Safari and don't plan to so i'm not just upset because this effects me — it doesn't effect me except in setting a negative future precident)

what browser do you use, AL?

AmbitiousLemon

Mar 24, 2003, 06:27 PM

Chimera

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
Chimera

Chimera or Camino? lol, i got camino, and i was like, what a crappy name, and there is nothing better than the last chimera nightly. i am going back to that. and that's where i am. i tried v67, and it was neat, but chimera is still way better. i just wish we had a googlebar.

janey

Mar 24, 2003, 06:42 PM

first of all, those idiot developers out there who leaked the builds and totally ruined it for everyone else...we're gonna find you someday and make you pay :D
Apple has every right to do this because Safari is their product and if they released nightly builds, etc. like Chimera and Camino, it would suck for Apple because you'd get these l/users, newbies and old/inexperienced ppl calling saying that safari did (name something) to their computer.
second of all, it sucks for all you mac users because you have no more developer builds of safari :p
It sucks for developers because they can no longer give Apple feedback regarding Safari. :mad:
I dislike what Apple has done but there's no way they're gonna trust any developer after Safari.

AmbitiousLemon

Mar 24, 2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
Chimera or Camino? lol, i got camino, and i was like, what a crappy name, and there is nothing better than the last chimera nightly. i am going back to that. and that's where i am. i tried v67, and it was neat, but chimera is still way better. i just wish we had a googlebar.

there is a quick little hack for google-ness. the mac browsers board is full of great little mods for chim...camino. jasper know his **** so check out his hacks. there is a google hack, spell checking hack, download manager hack, and a bunch more

Mac Broswers Board (http://macbb.eternaltedium.com)

Jasper's Camino Page (http://www.jasperhauser.nl/camino/)

Tips Page (http://www.efritz.net/chimeratricks.html)

and to keep things on topic... All of these people are the kind of people who make up the open source community — people who could be investing resources into Apple's browser, but Apple just teases us with open source never embraces it. It is very upsetting to see Apple take these kinds of actions when these is such a powerful community out there willing and anxious to help.

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
first of all, those idiot developers out there who leaked the builds and totally ruined it for everyone else...we're gonna find you someday and make you pay :D
Apple has every right to do this because Safari is their product and if they released nightly builds, etc. like Chimera and Camino, it would suck for Apple because you'd get these l/users, newbies and old/inexperienced ppl calling saying that safari did (name something) to their computer.
second of all, it sucks for all you mac users because you have no more developer builds of safari :p
It sucks for developers because they can no longer give Apple feedback regarding Safari. :mad:
I dislike what Apple has done but there's no way they're gonna trust any developer after Safari.

developers always do this. i don't see why you are so mad about this instance.

having a CVS tree wouldn't hurt apple at all. they aren't for newbies at all... it's like messing with the terminal, from what i understand--people don't do it. as for nightlies, sure, i understand. i've gotten the latest nightly for chimera every week for the last 3 months (till camino came out) and NOTHING ever happened to my system. it maybe crashed the program twice, but i've had final apple apps crash more than that.

janey

Mar 24, 2003, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
developers always do this. i don't see why you are so mad about this instance.

having a CVS tree wouldn't hurt apple at all. they aren't for newbies at all... it's like messing with the terminal, from what i understand--people don't do it. as for nightlies, sure, i understand. i've gotten the latest nightly for chimera every week for the last 3 months (till camino came out) and NOTHING ever happened to my system. it maybe crashed the program twice, but i've had final apple apps crash more than that.
but you're smart and you know how to use computers.
Developers always do this but i had this thing for getting builds of safari you wouldn't understand...

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
but you're smart and you know how to use computers.
Developers always do this but i had this thing for getting builds of safari you wouldn't understand...
that's right, i actually know enough about computers to get the nightly. i did nothing to chimera to keep it running smoothly. nightly builds aren't inherently unsafe. apple could follow the mozilla model just fine. it would make their browser MUCH better because it means EVERYONE can contribute as much as they want. furthermore, nightly builds are easy to deal with legally; you just say "this is entirely unsupported; we think it works fine, but don't come to us when your block goes up in a mushroom cloud." people who take the risk can't complain. well they can, but it only makes them look like idiots.

vniow

Mar 24, 2003, 07:21 PM

What if they released nightlies to people who signed up for the Apple Developer program?

Not just the paid ones, the basic free one too, the one where you can get the dev tools, IP over Firewire and one other thing (I don't remember) that way it wouldn't be majorly publicized (like having a splash page on apple.com) but the people who would be the ones who would be most likely to go through the extra effort to sign up for it would also be the people most likely to give feedback.

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by vniow
What if they released nightlies to people who signed up for the Apple Developer program?

Not just the paid ones, the basic free one too, the one where you can get the dev tools, IP over Firewire and one other thing (I don't remember) that way it wouldn't be majorly publicized (like having a splash page on apple.com) but the people who would be the ones who would be most likely to go through the extra effort to sign up for it would also be the people most likely to give feedback.

that's a cool idea. i'm already signed up for it because i used developer tools...
the only thing is, anyone can sign up, so it really doesn't make a difference as far as the question of "should we let the public access this in a progressive manner?" apple is saying no, and they are wrong, or just lazy.

janey

Mar 24, 2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
that's a cool idea. i'm already signed up for it because i used developer tools...
the only thing is, anyone can sign up, so it really doesn't make a difference as far as the question of "should we let the public access this in a progressive manner?" apple is saying no, and they are wrong, or just lazy.
they should just let apple employees and ADC members and WWDC attendees try out safari :D

shadowfax

Mar 24, 2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
they should just let apple employees and ADC members and WWDC attendees try out safari :D yes, and kick off elitist 15-year-old girls who think they are überpro :rolleyes: :p

apple can't get hurt by allowing the open source community to see this. they are the ones who make real progress these days--redhat &c are becoming really competitive on a number of markets. the only people who stand to lose by apple having nightlies and a CVS tree are the people dumb enough not to read the instructions and guidelines. opening this up to the public opens them up to new ideas and new ways of approaching things.

consider the example of the totalitarian state: freedom of expression is banned, and the education system is censored as well. as a result, many of the greatest minds are alienated and do not contribute to a society.

when apple closes that window to the community, a great deal of creativity is taken away. it makes them more like microsoft and less like linux. i don't know about the rest of you, but there are two main reasons i switched: *nix base and aqua. i understand some of this must be proprietary, but i don't approve of these proprietary regressions like this.