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MacRumors
Aug 25, 2006, 02:37 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Over the past month or so, there appears to have been an uptick in user dissatisfaction with Apple's handling of support incidents. While overall satisfaction is extremely hard to gauge due to the fact that typically only disgruntled users notify sites of issues and the uptick could also simply represent Apple's increased marketshare, it does come amongst reports of Apple firing its online forum moderator staff (http://www.macobserver.com/article/2006/07/28.10.shtml) and an Indian support center (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060604190322.shtml) that was shut down as quickly as it was opened. Similarly, many people felt that Apple was ill-prepared for yesterday's 1.8 million battery recall (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060824134647.shtml), as Apple's support site was quickly overloaded with requests and there was a lot of confusion as to what batteries were affected.

This all could, of course be coincidental. Of note, Apple has consistently been a market leader in surveys on customer support (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006497,00.asp).


Digg This (http://digg.com/apple/Apple_Having_Support_Problems)

zelet
Aug 25, 2006, 02:46 PM
dotMac support is horrible! There have been a ton of problems with their email service being labeled as a spam source lately. They aren't fixing the problem and there is no way of contacting support besides some worthless email form that only gets you canned responses in reply. They have no phone support either.

So, for a $100 a year service you get a blacklisted email address and no support. Yay for Apple!

drumpat01
Aug 25, 2006, 02:47 PM
I tried to type in my battery serial number only to have it say it was invalid even though I fell with in the given range of serial numbers. So I called Apple and after waiting on hold for about 20min they said I WAS VALID! So I dont know whats going on, but if you seem to be having the same problem you should DEFINITELY call them and double check your battery serial number.

mkjellman
Aug 25, 2006, 02:52 PM
well, i've been on the phone with apple 13 times in the past month. other than very long hold times, which is unusual, my issues have been completely resolved each time to my complete satistaction. i don't know if people are upset at the 15+ minute hold times, but i think apple is still doing what they do best.

Warbrain
Aug 25, 2006, 02:54 PM
I suspect a large amount of the issues are stemming from the problems with the Intel Macs and people are probably calling more about these problems. I could be wrong.

But yesterday did suck. That site went down in an instant. But then again, the Apple recall got a whole lot more news coverage than the Dell recall.

Parikh1234
Aug 25, 2006, 02:57 PM
I have had no luck today getting two batteries replaced. I enter their serial numbers and it tells me they are not valid serials, even though they fall within the range. When I call the support number and hit 5, i just get a busy tone and it hangs up on me.

daneoni
Aug 25, 2006, 02:58 PM
Well i guess they've become so popular it hurts...literally

Nuc
Aug 25, 2006, 02:58 PM
Well I wasn't to happy with them yesterday because I got hung up on 5 times. The answering system must have been having problems. I'm on the phone right now with them, waiting..., so that I can get the Nike+ iPod kit replaced. To bad they didn't have more support staff to answer calls...

Nuc

whoson1st0
Aug 25, 2006, 02:58 PM
I had the same problem with their battery recall site. My PB s/n was valid but it said my battery was not.

I tried calling the apple support number provided but every time I pressed '5' to talk to someone about the battery issue, I would get disconnected.

Eventually I reached tech support (after a 30 minute wait, I assume because others were having the same problem as me and also calling tech support) and the analyst said the database of valid batteries was not yet complete and they were telling everyone to check back today (I have not checked yet).

What bothered me, of course, is why couldn't they post this information on the battery support page? Or put it on the message when you call apple support? Instead the message over the phone simply pointed users back to the website, which of course wasn't working, and thus I spent almost an hour wasting my time on something that apple knew wasn't working yet.

I mean sure, this entire incident wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it certainly doesn't raise my confidence in apple support or customer satisfaction.

ghall
Aug 25, 2006, 02:59 PM
Hey, I'm not about to complain, they sent me a brand new MacBook Pro (even though I was on hold for an hour). Yeah, I have certainly noticed longer hold times on the support lines. Crazy, huh?

~Shard~
Aug 25, 2006, 03:00 PM
Apple needs to address this situation appropriately. As their products gain higher profile, as their customer base increases and they gain market share, it's only logical to think that there will be a greater need for support. If nothing else, it's simple math - more Macs out there = more problems! Esepcially with how well the Intel Macs have been selling, I think Apple would be foolish to think that what was good enough a few years ago is still good enough today in terms of support.

Apple must also realize the importance of first impressions. Now more than ever new switchers are coming on board to the Intel platform, and if they have problems right off the bat and poor customer service and support, that's going to leave a sour taste in their mouth, and perhaps they may just get fed up and switch back.

Apple is so good at so many things - let's hope they ensure this is the case for their Support services as well.

iGary
Aug 25, 2006, 03:05 PM
Apple needs to address this situation appropriately. As their products gain higher profile, as their customer base increases and they gain market share, it's only logical to think that there will be a greater need for support.

You're missing a comma. :p :D

~Shard~
Aug 25, 2006, 03:07 PM
You're missing a comma. :p :D

Am I, where, exactly? :p ;)

bigandy
Aug 25, 2006, 03:10 PM
the vocal minority are always the ones who have problems :rolleyes:

swingerofbirch
Aug 25, 2006, 03:12 PM
OK, as long as we are kvetching, I e-mailed dotmac support because some of my e-mails weren't going through..

I sent a test e-mail from dotmac webmail to my gmail account, which didn't go through.

They wrote back with instructions that said:

Thank you for contacting Apple.

Based on the information you provided, we understand that one of two emails you sent to your Gmail email address was not delivered, nor is email present in the Sent Messages folder.

For the purpose of our investigation, please reply and provide the following information:

- What is the subject of the email that failed to deliver?
- Was the email sent using .Mac Mail on the web, or an email client such as Mac OS X Mail?
- Did the email contain an attachment? If so, what is the size of the attachment?

subject of the email that was not delivered. Additionally, please provide a copy of the email header from the email that was successfully delivered.

To view a message's full header text using Gmail:

1. Log in to Gmail, <http://www.gmail.com/>.
2. Open a message sent from the JDate service.
3. Next to message delivery time, click "More options."
4. Click "Show original."

A new browser window will open displaying the message's full text, including the header. Please include a copy of the full text presented in the new browser window.

Sincerely,

Chris


Look at the part I bolded! I DO subscribe to e-mail from J Date that I receive at gmail but I NEVER mentioned ANYTHING about J date to dotmac...it is completely irreleveant to the e-mail I sent them.

I called custmer relations and they said they would get dotmac to contact me in 24 hours to explain the message but THEY HAVE NOT CALLED OR WRITTEN.


Dotmac has been a HEADACHE this last year...they have lost my e-mail and webpages, and now somehow seem to be prying into my personal life!

MacSync
Aug 25, 2006, 03:14 PM
Ahh did any one see this?

http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/08/23/apple.tops.pc.mag.survey/

Hmm. I've had a G5 DP worked on lately and had great support.

*Edit Nevermind, they are linking the PC mag story too.

illegalprelude
Aug 25, 2006, 03:15 PM
Call it what you want but these new MacBooks are crap. Yea there is people who are enjoying theirs without a hitch but look at all the reports of problems. Not once on this forum have we had a flood of problems with a single unit. Apple dropped the ball on this one. Poorly made unit

crawdad62
Aug 25, 2006, 03:21 PM
I was a "Helper" in the discussions and I'm now a "Level 4." I've been around the discussions for quite a while. I can't say anything about the support people are getting on the phone by personal experience but I've seen a lot of rumblings on the discussions.

As was stated it's hard to gauge exactly how people are treated because most are frustrated even before they call. Same thing happens in the discussions.

My only dealings with Apple Support was a few years ago. On Christmas day the modem on my Pismo went out. I just for a lark called to see if anyone was in and not only was someone there I was taken care of quite nicely. The next day I had a box to send it off and three days later I had it back. Not bad for a notebook that was about two weeks short of the warranty expiring.

I think that Apples growth of late might be the cause of some problems. They've got a bunch of new user (switchers) that might need a bit more "hand holding" (and that's not meant to be derogatory, it's just people that aren't exactly used to Mac in general).

I know one thing for sure. Apple's decision to let their Discussions staff go wasn't a good thing.

nagromme
Aug 25, 2006, 03:22 PM
It would be a shame to Apple toss aside its consistent record of having the industry's best support.

But it takes more than a few weeks of anonymous "uptick" to indicate such a dire turn of events.

Now, if such a thing did come to pass, I welcome every complaint and flame Apple can get: feedback is what gets them back on track.

And it's a shame about the discussion staff--seems like an odd move from where I'm standing.

nagromme
Aug 25, 2006, 03:27 PM
Call it what you want but these new MacBooks are crap. Yea there is people who are enjoying theirs without a hitch but look at all the reports of problems. Not once on this forum have we had a flood of problems with a single unit. Apple dropped the ball on this one. Poorly made unit
Actually EVERY single Apple product has had a "flood of problems" on this--and every other--Mac forum. Just as every product by every other company has had the same.

It's human nature (not to mention useful) to post when you have a problem. Not to say "by the way, my MacBook still runs fine this week" :D

ANY online forum will make the product in question seem more trouble-prone than reality. In fact, though, forums simply attract problems--and that's a very useful service they provide. Especially when solutions result, as often happens :)

Nuc
Aug 25, 2006, 03:29 PM
Well still waiting. I did talk to one of the support people but got transferred. I did mention that I got hung up on yesterday. He said there were a huge amount of people calling about the recall.

I'm listening to a female repeat herself over and over in two different languages. I can't figure out the second language but it's annoying!
-
-
Ok I'm getting refunded since I went and bought one (Nike+ iPod kit) at footlocker today...

Other than the wait I can't complain since they're nice.

Nuc

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 03:31 PM
Over the years I have bought a lot of computers for my business from a lot of different venders. To be honest Apple hardware support has never impressed me! :mad: I have actually had much better support from Dell than from Apple.

As far as .Mac goes it is one of the most poorly supported systems I have ever used in my life. They have a lousey limited faq sheet, common problems, email support is pitiful, and they don't take voice support. .Mac is a joke for $100.00 a year.

In general Apple's entire help system in OS X sucks. Searchs within the context of an application gives you all kinds of crap from every application on the system. Also there is no depth to the system. If your problem isn't the most elementary problem possible (99% of which you can figure out yourself) then it won't be in any of the help files.

VesperDEM
Aug 25, 2006, 03:33 PM
I have a 3 month old MacBook and a shiny new Mac Pro. No problems with the systems at all. When I got the Mac Pro, one of the RAM cards needed to be reseated, but that is expected with shipping.

The one time I called Apple support, it took about 20 minutes to get someone and I had solved the problem before the tech got there.

I verified that I solved the problem correctly and went on my way.

My joy was that the tech was American, or at least a person that spoke perfect English.

The problem with the surveys that they take is that I would suspect most satisfied customers don't fill them out, and the ones that are not satisfied after make sure to fill them out.

Let's face it, since the Intel line started coming out, there have been over 1 million units sold. Half of that number are new to Macintosh. If we are talking 10,000 unsatisfied customers, that's still only 2% of all the "new" customers and 1% of all the customers that have bought an Intel based system.

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 03:35 PM
Call it what you want but these new MacBooks are crap. Yea there is people who are enjoying theirs without a hitch but look at all the reports of problems. Not once on this forum have we had a flood of problems with a single unit. Apple dropped the ball on this one. Poorly made unit

I think you are exagerating this just a tad. The MacBook has had very few problems considering it is a generation one release. The MacBook Pro generation one and the G4 TI PB first generation were plagued with many, many more problems than the MacBook.

In my opinion Apple has done a very good job of quality control on the MacBook. This battery recall doesn't even apply to the MacBook.

swingerofbirch
Aug 25, 2006, 03:38 PM
Well still waiting. I did talk to one of the support people but got transferred. I did mention that I got hung up on yesterday. He said there were a huge amount of people calling about the recall.

I'm listening to a female repeat herself over and over in two different languages. I can't figure out the second language but it's annoying!
-
-
Ok I'm getting refunded since I went and bought one (Nike+ iPod kit) at footlocker today...

Other than the wait I can't complain since they're nice.

Nuc


Ahhh....I've been there...you're in a Canadian queue..the second language is French....Ne qui te pas (don't know how to spell it)...means somethign like please hold the line

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 03:42 PM
It would be a shame to Apple toss aside its consistent record of having the industry's best support.


I have always wondered if Apple's past industry record on support was really accurate. I think that Apple had such a loyal following of users that they tended to give Apple rosey marks for what most would classify as just average support.

Now with more new users coming to the mac. Support is now getting a less biased audience who have dealt with other computer support groups and are able to make a more accurate comparison.

Georgie
Aug 25, 2006, 03:44 PM
I tell you, I've had nothing but trouble with Apple. I'm young, I'm a medical student (so relatively affluent), and I'm a "switcher." I'm their target audience! That switching part though, that was a mistake on my part. Mac OS X is beautiful software, I love it. Unfortunately I've had a lot of problems with the hardware. These days it's enough I wish I still had my IBM/Lenovo laptop--that never gave me problems.

I bought two new computers for the start of the school year, a macbook for me and an iMac for my fiance (sold on the iSights). The iMac arrived with a faulty graphics system. The screen looked like it was in 4-bit mode, but only every other vertical line, sometimes. It was whack, out of the box, and they wanted me to have it repaired. I wanted a new one, or a discount because apparently what I bought was a refurbished computer (that's what I call a new computer that's already gone in for major repair once). That argument lasted hours and required talking with some upper management at Applecare. They were not sympathetic.

My macbook was a greater problem. First of all, it is essential to my life: academics, scientific research and analysis, reports, email, everything. And it started shutting down on my spontaneously. I sent it in for repair. They very quickly replaced the case (why?) and sent it back to me (kudos for speed). Unfortunately they didn't fix the problem and within days it had resumed the spontaneous shutdowns. Sent it back in, not happy, and they kept it for a week. They replaced the case (again, why?). I need something that's reliable every day and now I'm upset. They ship the computer back. The same day I get it back the screen goes black and it won't boot up. It powers on but I can't see anything. With an external monitor I get it working again, but now every single time I start my Macbook I have to reset the PRAM or it won't do anything--black screen. WTF Apple!

Now I call this a lemon. This machine is clearly broken badly. I'm pissed. I call Apple. Applecare technician agrees with me and sends me to a "product specialist" who wants me to again reset the ram and everything the tech just had me do. Then he wants me to send it in for repair again. Absolutely not! This will the third major repair in one month. I want a new computer. Well, he can't really do that he says. I was so angry. An hour later we had contacted Customer Service but their line suddenly went dead mid-conversation and then Mr. Specialist didn't know what to do. He asked me to hold a few minutes. Suddenly he could look into replacing my computer. Three hours on the line already!!! By the end of this he wants me to take my machine to the local Apple Store and they will determine whether they're willing to replace it or not.

Finally I got somewhere when I called corporate to complain. Another hour on the phone and several legal documents faxed back and forth (honestly, legal documents indemnifying them of further claims!), and supposedly a replacement computer is now on its way to me. Not that I have a tracking number or any way to verify this is actually the case.

I didn't know Apple before the Intel switch, but I'm deeply disappointed. In fact I recommend to anyone who asks to avoid purchasing an Apple computer. The hardware obviously has serious flaws and is unreliable. The tech support, as far as it goes is excellent, but it doesn't go far at all.

That has been my experience. This kind of service will nip Apple's success in the bud. They better change something and fast.

iMikeT
Aug 25, 2006, 03:48 PM
I tell you, I've had nothing but trouble with Apple. I'm young, I'm a medical student (so relatively affluent), and I'm a "switcher." That switching part, that was a mistake. Mac OS X is beautiful software, I love it. Unfortunately I've had a lot of problems with the hardware. These days it's enough I wish I still had my IBM/Lenovo laptop--that never gave me problems.

I bought two new computers for the start of the school year, a macbook for me and an iMac for my fiance (sold on the iSights). The iMac arrived with a faulty graphics system. The screen looked like it was in 4-bit mode, but only every other vertical line, sometimes. It was whack, out of the box, and they wanted me to have it repaired. I wanted a new one, or a discount because apparently what I bought was a refurbished computer (that's what I call a new computer that's already gone in for major repair once). That argument lasted hours and required talking with some upper management at Applecare. They were not sympathetic.

My macbook was a greater problem. First of all, it is essential to my life: academics, scientific research and analysis, reports, email, everything. And it started shutting down on my spontaneously. I sent it in for repair. They very quickly replaced the case (why?) and sent it back to me (kudos for speed). Unfortunately they didn't fix the problem and within days it had resumed the spontaneous shutdowns. Sent it back in, not happy, and they kept it for a week. They replaced the case (again, why?). I need something that's reliable every day and now I'm upset. They ship the computer back. The same day I get it back the screen goes black and it won't boot up. It powers on but I can't see anything. With an external monitor I get it working again, but now every single time I start my Macbook I have to reset the PRAM or it won't do anything--black screen. WTF Apple!

Now I call this a lemon. This machine is clearly broken badly. I'm pissed. I call Apple. Applecare technician agrees with me and sends me to a "product specialist" who wants me to again reset the ram and everything the tech just had me do. Then he wants me to send it in for repair again. Absolutely not! This will the third major repair in one month. I want a new computer. Well, he can't really do that he says. I was so angry. An hour later we had contacted Customer Service but their line suddenly went dead mid-conversation and then Mr. Specialist didn't know what to do. He asked me to hold a few minutes. Suddenly he could look into replacing my computer. Three hours on the line already!!! By the end of this he wants me to take my machine to the local Apple Store and they will determine whether they're willing to replace it or not.

Finally I got somewhere when I called corporate to complain. Another hour on the phone and several legal documents faxed back and forth (honestly, legal documents indemnifying them of further claims!), and supposedly a replacement computer is now on its way to me. Not that I have a tracking number or any way to verify this is actually the case.

I didn't know Apple before the Intel switch, but I'm deeply disappointed. In fact I recommend to anyone who asks to avoid purchasing an Apple computer. The hardware obviously has serious flaws and is unreliable. The tech support, as far as it goes is excellent, but it doesn't go far at all.

That has been my experience. This kind of service will nip Apple's success in the bud. They better change something and fast.



Another person who can never be satisfied.:rolleyes:

daze
Aug 25, 2006, 03:52 PM
Call it what you want but these new MacBooks are crap. Yea there is people who are enjoying theirs without a hitch but look at all the reports of problems. Not once on this forum have we had a flood of problems with a single unit. Apple dropped the ball on this one. Poorly made unit
Not to put momre fuel on to the fire, but I agree. MacBooks are indeed crap. I had three sent to me, and all had a few things wrong with them. I ended up getting a refund... Now, if Apple could only re-do a new case for the MacBook Pro series, I'd get one in a heart beat.

daneoni
Aug 25, 2006, 03:52 PM
Another person who can never be satisfied.:rolleyes:

What is that even supposed to mean?

whatever
Aug 25, 2006, 03:53 PM
I've called Apple twice in the past week (on Saturday morning and this morning) and I received excellent support both times!

They answered my questions in a very timely manner.

I'm very hard on Support people because I did Technical Support for years and expect the highest level of support, which I've always received from Apple.

I've also been a .Mac subscriber since it was released and I've never had a problem with it. Yes, I'm currently getting those stupid stock SPAMS, but so is everyone else. I always check to see the address of where the e-mail is coming from, waiting for that day that my addresss is there and I've never see a .mac.com address in the "From" column. It's a great service and much better than the other e-mail services that I use.

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 03:59 PM
Another person who can never be satisfied.:rolleyes:

Kind of a rude reply to someone who is just posting their experience with Apple.

Without criticism there would never be a reason to improve anything.

zelet
Aug 25, 2006, 04:02 PM
Another person who can never be satisfied.:rolleyes:

Are you telling me somebody who spent thousands of dollars on "premium" hardware doesn't have a right to be pissed when both systems he bought were DOA? That is stupid! Apple should have kissed his ass and gave him a new computer after the second major repair. He was nicer than I would have ever been. I would have gone to the Apple store and caused a HUGE scene in the middle of a busy Saturday about it.

Apple computers are expensive. They are worth it when they work (and they usually do) but when Apple makes a mistake they should correct it better than anybody.

daneoni
Aug 25, 2006, 04:03 PM
Kind of a rude reply to someone who is just posting their experience with Apple.

Without criticism there would never be a reason to improve anything.

Agreed, thats why i asked what that meant. I mean its a distasteful reply and im sure if iMike were in his shoes he'd be writing the same type of post....then again he might suck it up...because its almighty Apple.

geiger167
Aug 25, 2006, 04:05 PM
I had a problem with my .mac account recently (failure to update Idisc and Iweb) and reported the fault on the apple support forum for some help. The service was down for a day and a half when I received a phone call from Apple in America. As I live in the UK I was certainly not expecting a phone call from anyone. The Apple representive went through my propblem with me on the phone and made sure my .mac account was working perfectly before he rang off. The problem with service faults are only complaints are ever heard, no one ever mentions the good service when it occurs, and the company was certainly under no obligation to me to make a transatlantic phone call to help me out and is the first time in my many years as a computer user when any manufacturer has ever made this kind of effort to solve a complaint :)

illegalprelude
Aug 25, 2006, 04:06 PM
So far, i havent been the happiest camper with Apple's support. Having Apple Care on my PowerMac G5, I can tell you I got more of a run-around then any other time ive needed service on a unit. It started with Apple sending me to an Authorised Repair center to replace my Ethernet Card (so the entire logic board had to go, this story btw dates back to xmas) and from there on, my unit with Kurnil Panic all the time, i mean 7 times a day. 2 or 3 random programs opening and back, complete lock up with a full shut down needed.

I had to of course drag my PowerMac 30 miles everytime, drag it to a store (6 times over all before they took care of the problem and dragging a PM through the mall, it gets heavy real fast) and they then blamed it on everytime from "heat" to my "battery backup" to "envirmental issues" to "external HDD". Just every single BS they could think of because all these devices for 2 years prior worked just fine but now they suddenly wanna glitch up? come on now. Finally, finally, 6 visits, 2 calls to AppleCare and a month and a half later did they replace my LogicBoard and processor and find one or both of those to be the problem. Sorry but this is what I get for buying a Pro consumer computer, .Mac service and AppleCare :mad:

Im not saying other units dont have problems. Everything does but it sure as hell seems like from the 1st time the MacBooks hit out, we have seen an uprise in problems from heat, to freezing, to failed drives etc.

Im sure ill get alot of "pro apple kool-aid drinker" attacks from this but this dosent make me any less of an Apple enthusiest or whatever but I work hard for my money and I demand the same quality and service from Apple as I do from any other company. Clear Example iMikeT

aftk2
Aug 25, 2006, 04:09 PM
Speaking as someone whose iMac G5 has been out of commission and in the nearby Apple Store for thirty days (!), I'm not the happiest Apple user, either. Thing is, I've only ever had good experiences, prior to this. For example, I had one of the early Apple Studio Displays (the ones that looked like oversized bondi blue iMacs), and when it started wonking out, Apple sent me a box, shipping label pre-printed, and repaired it for free, even after it was out of warranty (there was a known defect.)

This latest episode has been pretty aggravating, though (although the only saving grace is that I'll likely be able to score an Intel iMac out of the deal, which I'm somewhat excited about.)

Heh, maybe I should have the Apple Store twiddle their thumbs for a few more weeks, and I might be able to grab a Core 2 Duo version. :P

zelet
Aug 25, 2006, 04:10 PM
Im sure ill get alot of "pro apple kool-aid drinker" attacks from this but this dosent make me any less of an Apple enthusiest iMikeT

Amen to that! I'm a huge fan of Apple but I wont let them polish a turd and tell me its a diamond.

findpankaj
Aug 25, 2006, 04:11 PM
Dotmac has been a HEADACHE this last year...they have lost my e-mail and webpages, and now somehow seem to be prying into my personal life!

I was planning to buy a .mac account for e-mail , blogs through iWeb, web pages etc. I am more aware now about it.

hondaboy945
Aug 25, 2006, 04:14 PM
The problem with the surveys that they take is that I would suspect most satisfied customers don't fill them out, and the ones that are not satisfied after make sure to fill them out.

This is the absolute truth. People that are upset want everyone too know, while the rest of us go on loving our products. I really try too take the time to fill out surveys that I get wether the product is good or bad.

Please take time too let companies know when they do a good thing, and when they do things that need a little work. Maybe instead of geting all pissed off about being on hold for a few minutes or not being able to talk to a person that speaks English, you could try your luck with customer service from Dell, HSBC, or any other service center that is located in another country. Then maybe you won't be so bitchy. Sorry for the rant.

jaxstate
Aug 25, 2006, 04:17 PM
No it didn't.
I have had no luck today getting two batteries replaced. I enter their serial numbers and it tells me they are not valid serials, even though they fall within the range. When I call the support number and hit 5, i just get a busy tone and it hangs up on me.

zelet
Aug 25, 2006, 04:18 PM
I was planning to buy a .mac account for e-mail , blogs through iWeb, web pages etc. I am more aware now about it.

Don't get dotMac without some serious research. Their services are slow and they are a ton more expensive than comparable services elsewhere. Of course, the benefits are that its well integrated into OS X but you can do that with a little bit of work. YMMV

chefscientist
Aug 25, 2006, 04:22 PM
Apple could start improving their customer service by:

- Combining "Pro Care," and ".Mac"
- Offering online apple care support for .mac members
- Extending their standard warranty
- The ability to serve people at the apple store as they walk in (for minor issues). Who in the world came up with this appointment crap?:confused:
- Allowing apple users to subsrcibe to apple learning events in iCal.

silverblue3
Aug 25, 2006, 04:24 PM
Granted, there are problems with the mac hardware. but till date, I've found apple tech support excellent. They have always replaced my hardware with no questions asked. In fact, they replaced my whole LCD screen on my 3 year old powerbook just because of a white spot.

~Shard~
Aug 25, 2006, 04:29 PM
the vocal minority are always the ones who have problems :rolleyes:

So in other words, the squeaky wheel gets the grease? ;)

cloudnine
Aug 25, 2006, 04:35 PM
Over the years I have bought a lot of computers for my business from a lot of different venders. To be honest Apple hardware support has never impressed me! :mad: I have actually had much better support from Dell than from Apple.

As far as .Mac goes it is one of the most poorly supported systems I have ever used in my life. They have a lousey limited faq sheet, common problems, email support is pitiful, and they don't take voice support. .Mac is a joke for $100.00 a year.

In general Apple's entire help system in OS X sucks. Searchs within the context of an application gives you all kinds of crap from every application on the system. Also there is no depth to the system. If your problem isn't the most elementary problem possible (99% of which you can figure out yourself) then it won't be in any of the help files.

Just out of curiosity... what kind of problems could you possibly have with .mac? I mean, I've never had any email problems, Setting it up in Mail is as simple as possible... the online interface is simple...

I dunno... hearing people complain about customer service regarding .mac seems funny to me. What types of problems have you had with it?

Granted, there are problems with the mac hardware. but till date, I've found apple tech support excellent. They have always replaced my hardware with no questions asked. In fact, they replaced my whole LCD screen on my 3 year old powerbook just because of a white spot.

I wish I had such luck. Apparently if you have a 15" powerbook, they'll replace that display with no questions asked. I have a 12" powerbook without a single scratch on it that i treat like a baby... but apparently it's my fault because i put too much pressure on it... even though i use a sleeve in a cushioned pocket of a cushioned bag. o_O

ergh. :mad:

iGary
Aug 25, 2006, 04:36 PM
Having to go through 5 Cinema Displays, two logic boards, a new processor set, a dented new PB, 12 Apple Store visits, and 16 hours on the phone with AppleCare pretty much sums up my satisfaction with Apple's support.

They are nice and courteous, but not given the power to do much in most situations. Pass the buck is their motto.

cloudnine
Aug 25, 2006, 04:45 PM
maybe if apple wasn't so dead set on making everything as tiny as possible so that nothing had any room to ventilate and in turn, baking inside, there wouldn't be all these problems. i'd be interested to see the performance results of say, a macbook pro with the casing type of a mac pro.

hrm...

then again, i'm no hardware designer so :P *thinking outloud*

cloudnine
Aug 25, 2006, 04:51 PM
Speaking of asinine Apple happenings... why is it that the new Mac Pro standard configuration of 2 dual-core Intel 2.66ghz processors, etc, etc is at $2499, but Apple still has the PowerMac standard configuration of 2 dual-core PowerPC 2.5ghz processors, etc, etc at $3299?

Odd.

zelet
Aug 25, 2006, 04:57 PM
Just out of curiosity... what kind of problems could you possibly have with .mac? I mean, I've never had any email problems, Setting it up in Mail is as simple as possible... the online interface is simple...

I dunno... hearing people complain about customer service regarding .mac seems funny to me. What types of problems have you had with it?


Well, recently there have been problems with people having their mail bounced back to them because somehow the dotMac smtp servers were blacklisted by spamcop and a few other services. They have been having pretty bad, though geographically localized, service disruptions. Friends of mine have also complained that mail they send to me are sometimes bounced back with a "This account doesn't exist" error message even though they have sent me mail before and after the event (yes, they verified the email address).

So, in summary, there are a lot of problems that shouldn't occur with a $100 a year service. DotMac should be at least a 99% uptime service for that kind of money.

swingerofbirch
Aug 25, 2006, 05:00 PM
It seems like a preponderance of the issues people have are with the notebooks.

Do you think it could be because Apple has the thinnest laptops on the market which means they sacrifice build quality and heat management?

When I looked at the innards of an iBook G3 it was basically "a mess" in there...nothing looked modular like you would see inside the new Mac pro.

cloudnine
Aug 25, 2006, 05:02 PM
Well, recently there have been problems with people having their mail bounced back to them because somehow the dotMac smtp servers were blacklisted by spamcop and a few other services. They have been having pretty bad, though geographically localized, service disruptions. Friends of mine have also complained that mail they send to me are sometimes bounced back with a "This account doesn't exist" error message even though they have sent me mail before and after the event (yes, they verified the email address).

So, in summary, there are a lot of problems that shouldn't occur with a $100 a year service. DotMac should be at least a 99% uptime service for that kind of money.

Wow... I had no idea. *crosses fingers* I hope that doesn't happen to me :/

nagromme
Aug 25, 2006, 05:02 PM
I have always wondered if Apple's past industry record on support was really accurate. I think that Apple had such a loyal following of users that they tended to give Apple rosey marks for what most would classify as just average support.
A very logical theory--and sometimes true, no doubt--but three possible points to counter that:


* There is NOT a pattern of Mac users tending to hide their dissatisfaction--not even with even the smallest thing Apple does wrong. At least, not on these forums :D

* Consumer Reports (and PC Magazine too to some extent) break down the numbers in quantifiable ways: like whether Apple support solved the problem or not, and how long you had to wait on hold. It's not just "subjective impressions" being gathered. These are professional surveys after all.

* People aren't just loyal out of the blue, they're loyal because Apple HAS done well by them. People being happy on Mac is a FAIR factor, I think, not an unfair one. (The fact that Mac users like Apple/Macs so much is sometimes used as a REASON to claim that Apple/Macs don't deserve it. That's a little backwards at best.)


Nonetheless, I think you have a point about Switchers being an increasing group. I'm not sure exactly HOW that affects the outcome, but I think that it must, and that it's something Apple must adapt to.

As for this past month--I don't see any unusual pattern of complaints, personally. Things like that always fluctuate, and if there IS an increase in the last few weeks, I bet it's not the first such, nor the last.

For the record, my own experience: I have had Apple bend over backwards for me and offer better service (even free not-warranty repair for wear-and-tear) than they were bound to do. I have also had some frustration with getting canned responses from the first-level techs (at other companies too)--but I politely but firmly move up the ladder!

bilbo--baggins
Aug 25, 2006, 05:04 PM
The PowerMac G5 I bought last year had a fan that constantly 'clicked'. It took several calls to AppleCare to get it sorted. Before you got anywhere you had to speak to someone that could barely speak English, who you had to humour by following their instructions to reboot the computer, reset PRAM etc. Then they wanted to have a company collect my Mac and take it away for repair. Only if you're really stubborn do you actually get them to send you the part to fit yourself. Even then they couldn't agree on whether the old fan needed to be returned. They took my credit card details in case I didn't return the old fan, then the info with the new fan told me I didn't need to return the old fan. Then I phoned them to clarify this, and they told me I must return the old fan or I would be charged. Totally baffled, I rang yet again and this time was assured that I didn't need to return it. Complete shambles.

It's irritating from a personal point of view. But what really disappoints me is that this is the kind of service new customers are getting. So much for the halo effect - apple are tarnishing it themselves. I'm a long time Apple fan and a few buffoons (who have probably only worked for Apple for a few months) won't begin to damage my loyalty. But can the same be said for first time iPod or Mac users?

ryanw
Aug 25, 2006, 05:05 PM
The last time two times I walked in an apple store I saw a line of several people holding items waiting to purchase with no available staff personal at the counter. I saw one of them finally put the goods on the counter and walked away. Trying to get your computer problem fixed in-store is like trying to get into an exclusive day spa. I think the "genius bar" and the "geniuses" should seriously be renamed. Their arrogance and inability to fix anything in a timely manor is horrifying.

skippy-fluff
Aug 25, 2006, 05:06 PM
The battery recall validator also rejected my battery, which is clearly in the range advertised on the web site. When I called the support lines yesterday, they didn't even try to take the call. Today I got through, and I got told by "Rachel" that there were a small number of batteries in the ranges that were manufactured by someone other than Sony. She couldn't tell me who, and when I asked for further information, she escalated the call.

The next guy, whose name I didn't catch, basically said the same thing. When I explained that I would like something from Apple indicating that the public listing on the recall didn't apply to me, he said that sometime in the future (unstated) this will get updated on the website. Since my primary reason for wanting it is to avoid potential airline troubles, that wasn't too great answer. His next suggestion, to print the validation failure, was funny, but not very practical. I fly about once a week, and I've already seen the dell guys being asked not to work on the plane. I don't want to be in that club, so I was pretty insistent that they write something down.

I asked them to send me something (even by fax) that simply said that my battery was not subject to recall, despite the fact it fell into the consumer product safety commission recalled range and Apple announced range (still up, with no amendment, by at https://support.apple.com/ibook_powerbook/batteryexchange/index.html). He could not.

I next got sent to Kelly, in customer service, whose attitude was about the least customer-service related of any of them. She tried to read out the web site to me, and got very frustrated when I pointed out that it did not say what she wanted it to say. It does not say that there are batteries in the ranges that are fine. It says at least twice that if you have a battery in the range you should send for a replacement and not use it. I pointed out to her that the trouble ticket I'd opened covered the ground nicely, and that all I wanted was a statement of the result: "Apple's support staff has worked with this customer and has established that the battery Serial No. XXXX is not subject to the recall on Sony-produced batteries". Or whatever language they like.
She agreed that this was truth, but said she could not provide any documentation. She also declined to escalate further.

Given that the validator has said no to people who should have gotten yes, relying on it as the last word is a bad idea. Get a real person on the phone. But even then, be prepared for frustration if you would like
anything but an oral assurance that the battery you have is good.

drlunanerd
Aug 25, 2006, 05:08 PM
I've just come out the other side of a protracted saga with AppleCare.

Bought my first personal Apple laptop, a MacBook, in May (having supported and bought a lot of their hardware over the years in my job).

It had a couple of faults so I decided to send it in to get repaired.
It took them 2 months to get a working laptop back to me.

After 1 month I had the original MacBook returned, which they hadn't repaired at all, apparently due to spare parts availabilty problems.

After another 2 weeks they sent a replacement MacBook. Which was DOA. At this point I asked for a refund as I had no confidence in the quality control of the product.

Customer Relations then offered me an upgrade to a new Macbook Pro, which I have now and am happy with.

So a happy ending, but a disgracefully long wait to get to it. Unfortunately this has been my experience with AppleCare over the years - it takes far too long to get hardware repaired - whether you take it to an Authorised Repair Centre or send it to AppleCare. It's useless in a business environment. At the least Apple need to add a next business day service, just like all the other 'tier one' PC manufacturers do. I'm baffled why Apple don't offer this.

Ja Di ksw
Aug 25, 2006, 05:15 PM
I would just like to say that every time I have dealth with Apple's help (blue line on screen, crack on trackpad, melted power brick cord, ordering, etc), they have been superb. Very professional, very helpful, and very quick. Does this add much to the discussion? No, but too often we only hear the bad, so I wanted to put in some good as well.

pubwvj
Aug 25, 2006, 05:19 PM
I'm having a problem. Last year I bought an iBook that was supposed to come with a free iPod. I got the iPod, called in and registered, did the paper work for the rebate and sent that in right away. Never got a check. I called up to find out where my rebate was and they are telling me that they aren't responsible for rebates lost in the mail - tough luck. I've been through many phone calls with many people at Apple on this. It's going nowhere. It is absurd that this happened. I bought the iPod and iBook directly from them through the Apple Store. They have all the information, which they have verified they have. But they won't send me my $179. Beware, Apple is not standing behind their rebate offers.

2nd Problem, Apple sent a repair guy out to fix a iMac. He did but when he put the case back together he didn't do it right. Now the case is partially open. Minor but annoying.

3rd Problem, I have an Apple product, which I won't name as I'm trying to get it taken care of right now, and it keeps failing, the replacement fails, etc. What happened to quality manufacturing? Apple's losing it.

iGary
Aug 25, 2006, 05:19 PM
So a happy ending, but a disgracefully long wait to get to it.

Usually the case. My situation played out over only a month, really, but it was several visits to the Apple Store and hours on the phone with useless "product specialists."

FMJessica
Aug 25, 2006, 05:24 PM
A month ago I turned in my brand new 3 month old MacBook Pro to the Apple store because it had some sort of weird lines on the screen. They weren't anything I'd ever seen before, and when you had an application open over the lines, they dissapeared. Well, Apple send my computer back not fixed. So I had to send it out again, and this time the Apple store forgot to send it out. So eventually it got sent out and it was on hold for a part forever and yada yada yada three weeks later I'm super pissed.

I called Apple for the millionth time to complain, and finally they connected me to someone who set it up so that I could have a brand new, (and faster from the 1.83 GHz to the 2.0) MBP.

I had to complain a ton of times, and they still couldn't get my computer fixed in a fair amount of time. They told me everything was "expidited", even the parts they needed, but it was still taking almost a month.

I was so dissapointed in Apple! I'm a Mac-or-nothing kind of person, and this treatment was unacceptable. No wonder everyone's so pissed off! I'm glad it's not just me, but at the same time I hope they do something about it.

Anyway, my new computer is way better, and they also threw in 100$ off any iPod + my student discount, so we've made up.

BTW, I got my new new computer last weekend, so this was super recent.

Jessica

alpacojohn
Aug 25, 2006, 05:42 PM
Funny how I just came across this thread, as I'm in the middle of an Apple support nightmare as well (I have one of those MacBooks that just turns itself off for no reason - completely unacceptable). I have been routed through 12 people over 3 calls, with several promises of "expedited resolution"s but no tangible result.

Although it's possible (and likely) that the prevalence of the MacBook defects have been overblown, I do know that Apple's support process puts you through a lot of hoops to get any major issue resolved (e.g., replacing a clearly defective product). Each person I've talked to has been courteous, but in the end I still have no faith in their ability to actually solve my problem in a timely manner.

Frustrated Apple User

asiayeah
Aug 25, 2006, 06:14 PM
In US, people get free shipping for their new batteries.

In Hong Kong, we have to visit the service providers in person TWICE! First we have to go there and give up our old battery for registration. Then we have to wait for at least 10 days and visit the service providers AGAIN to get the new battery.

It's simply poor service from Apple!

P.S. The Apple HK support staff actually told me they just know about the news on the same day as me. They also incorrectly told me that only MacBook's batteries replacements have free shippings...

war
Aug 25, 2006, 06:18 PM
Apple support for me has been nothing but great. This year my household has bought an intel iMac and a macbook. Being revision A I was expecting some sort of problems with them at some point and the problems did come. First I had some serious video problems on the iMac. So, I made an appt using Concierge and it was right on time. So, the genius looked at the problem and in ten mintues told me I needed to have the logic board replaced. So, I left it at the store and picked it up 2 days later. I wasn't glad that I had problems with the mac but their support was great.

Now the macbook was having the dreaded problem of turning off at random times. This one was a bit more tricky. I made my appt just as I did for the iMac and saw the genius. She had to replicate the problem of it turning off at random before she could put it into their system in order to be fixed. Thankfully it turned off within a couple of minutes so she put in the request to have the logic board replaced. However, it took 4 days this time to get it fixed. While I would have loved to have had it fixed in the same time it took to fix the iMac I realized that just wasn't in the cards. It has been fine ever since. Although, a few weeks later the battery started to buldge but they replaced it right away and we were only at the genius bar for around 15 minutes to get a new battery.

After hearing the horror story of my best friend trying to get his Dell fixed I was certainly happy about my experience with Apple. (as far as the dell story goes he still doesn't have it replaced because Dell lost his notebook after he sent it back to them and they are trying to tell him that it was somehow his fault) The people at the genius bar were excellent with good customer service skills. While I realize that some have had experiences that weren't quite as good I thought I would point out that some of our experiences with Apple support have been excellent.

asiayeah
Aug 25, 2006, 06:36 PM
Apple support for me has been nothing but great. This year my household has bought an intel iMac and a macbook. Being revision A I was expecting some sort of problems with them at some point and the problems did come. First I had some serious video problems on the iMac. So, I made an appt using Concierge and it was right on time. So, the genius looked at the problem and in ten mintues told me I needed to have the logic board replaced. So, I left it at the store and picked it up 2 days later. I wasn't glad that I had problems with the mac but their support was great.

Now the macbook was having the dreaded problem of turning off at random times. This one was a bit more tricky. I made my appt just as I did for the iMac and saw the genius. She had to replicate the problem of it turning off at random before she could put it into their system in order to be fixed. Thankfully it turned off within a couple of minutes so she put in the request to have the logic board replaced. However, it took 4 days this time to get it fixed. While I would have loved to have had it fixed in the same time it took to fix the iMac I realized that just wasn't in the cards. It has been fine ever since. Although, a few weeks later the battery started to buldge but they replaced it right away and we were only at the genius bar for around 15 minutes to get a new battery.

After hearing the horror story of my best friend trying to get his Dell fixed I was certainly happy about my experience with Apple. (as far as the dell story goes he still doesn't have it replaced because Dell lost his notebook after he sent it back to them and they are trying to tell him that it was somehow his fault) The people at the genius bar were excellent with good customer service skills. While I realize that some have had experiences that weren't quite as good I thought I would point out that some of our experiences with Apple support have been excellent.

I think you are in the States, aren't you?

EagerDragon
Aug 25, 2006, 06:38 PM
When I read a lot of posts where people complain about Apple service, it seems that it is offten from non-US. Is this my imagination or does Apple need to kick the Arse of their international support groups?
:D

EagerDragon
Aug 25, 2006, 06:45 PM
Apple needs to address this situation appropriately. As their products gain higher profile, as their customer base increases and they gain market share, it's only logical to think that there will be a greater need for support. If nothing else, it's simple math - more Macs out there = more problems! Esepcially with how well the Intel Macs have been selling, I think Apple would be foolish to think that what was good enough a few years ago is still good enough today in terms of support.

Apple must also realize the importance of first impressions. Now more than ever new switchers are coming on board to the Intel platform, and if they have problems right off the bat and poor customer service and support, that's going to leave a sour taste in their mouth, and perhaps they may just get fed up and switch back.

Apple is so good at so many things - let's hope they ensure this is the case for their Support services as well.

Well said, I think you hit the nail on the head.

sikkinixx
Aug 25, 2006, 06:53 PM
well im certainly annoyed with Apple's support right now. 3 times my Macbook has been in and now they tell me they cant FIX the problem (the only way I can get my macbook to boot up is to zap the PRAM every time). If I had known it was gonna be this much trouble I would have stuck with my pb or bought a Vaio... :mad:

daneoni
Aug 25, 2006, 07:15 PM
well im certainly annoyed with Apple's support right now. 3 times my Macbook has been in and now they tell me they cant FIX the problem (the only way I can get my macbook to boot up is to zap the PRAM every time). If I had known it was gonna be this much trouble I would have stuck with my pb or bought a Vaio... :mad:

You should demand a replacement or refund

sikkinixx
Aug 25, 2006, 07:28 PM
You should demand a replacement or refund

when i pick it up from the service center I had it at (its not an Apple store since we don't have them in Canada) I'm gonna ring up Apple and ask them wtf is going on. It never did it before I got the new Logic board but buddy at the place I took it said Apple said it wasn't a logic board problem.

EagerDragon
Aug 25, 2006, 07:36 PM
Kind of a rude reply to someone who is just posting their experience with Apple.

Without criticism there would never be a reason to improve anything.

100% agree, there are manufactoring mistakes, the man should have a right to complain, lets not be rude. Sorry about that, people should not treat you like that.

KilGil27
Aug 25, 2006, 07:39 PM
just because your battery falls within a range of serial numbers doesn't mean it needs to be replaced... if it tells you your laptop qualifies but your battery doesn't, then it was only the first part of the serial number... not the whole thing

Ktulu
Aug 25, 2006, 07:40 PM
My only dealings with Apple Support was a few years ago. On Christmas day the modem on my Pismo went out. I just for a lark called to see if anyone was in and not only was someone there I was taken care of quite nicely. The next day I had a box to send it off and three days later I had it back. Not bad for a notebook that was about two weeks short of the warranty expiring.

I'm not trying to be a wise a@@, but when did Apple make a Pismo. I do remember them, but not being made by Apple. I am sorry, I don't recall the manufactuer for them at this time.:confused:

EagerDragon
Aug 25, 2006, 07:40 PM
I was planning to buy a .mac account for e-mail , blogs through iWeb, web pages etc. I am more aware now about it.
I have .mac now for several years, and I am still wondering why I re-subscribe. Maybe Im lazy. I must be. Don't get it. Need a Gmail invite?????

ltcol266845
Aug 25, 2006, 07:41 PM
Im sorry, but when you recall 1.8million batteries, and expect them not to get over laoded with call, your crazy. Dell is making some people wait nearly 70 days to get their replacement. Its a LOT of batteries. Affecting a LOT of users. These things happen.

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 07:51 PM
I'm not trying to be a wise a@@, but when did Apple make a Pismo. I do remember them, but not being made by Apple. I am sorry, I don't recall the manufactuer for them at this time.:confused:

Apple always made the Pismo. I don't know the exact years but it was a black G3 PowerBook.

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 08:00 PM
I have .mac now for several years, and I am still wondering why I re-subscribe. Maybe Im lazy. I must be. Don't get it. Need a Gmail invite?????

I'm the same way. I have had .mac since way back when it was "Free for Life" and I just have gotten used to keeping it. I also keep thinking that ole Jobs and company are going to come up with the killer .mac app that will make .mac indespensible.

I'm still waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
:confused:

gauriemma
Aug 25, 2006, 08:06 PM
and there was a lot of confusion as to what batteries were affected.

Right. Because the whole "if your battery's serial number falls within this range, this range, or this range" concept was so terribly difficult to grasp.

Ktulu
Aug 25, 2006, 08:23 PM
Apple always made the Pismo. I don't know the exact years but it was a black G3 PowerBook.

That's right. thank you I completely forgot about that.:D

Island Dog
Aug 25, 2006, 08:24 PM
Right. Because the whole "if your battery's serial number falls within this range, this range, or this range" concept was so terribly difficult to grasp.

Yep. My serial falls into the range and the website still won't accept it. I guess I will have to sit on hold Monday morning.

BanjoBanker
Aug 25, 2006, 08:24 PM
I don't have one of the Intel Macs (yet) but I have had excellent service from Apple Care whenever I have called. My wife's 14" iBook had the logic board replaced, 4 working days, and I sent my daughter's iPod mini in and it was repaired in no time ( I ordered her mini the day the became available-some teething issues I guess.) I had an AirPort Express replaced with no questions asked recently. I have never had a problem with Apple Care support, I don't expect to have my calls answered one the first ring when I call, that would be silly. These days being on hold for 10 minutes is one of those things. I agree with the other posters who said that the complaints get all the press. I try to always comment to management when I receive excellent service because compliments are rare these days, but complaints are common. Like the affulent med student in earlier post, I too am a switcher and I do NOT regret it for one second. I would not go back to my IBM Thinkpad if you paid me to.

daneoni
Aug 25, 2006, 08:26 PM
Right. Because the whole "if your battery's serial number falls within this range, this range, or this range" concept was so terribly difficult to grasp.

No, because different versions of the ranges were initially posted only recently has it been clarified...get with the program and stop trying to be a smartass

Zadillo
Aug 25, 2006, 08:30 PM
well im certainly annoyed with Apple's support right now. 3 times my Macbook has been in and now they tell me they cant FIX the problem (the only way I can get my macbook to boot up is to zap the PRAM every time). If I had known it was gonna be this much trouble I would have stuck with my pb or bought a Vaio... :mad:

You do know that Sony is known for having some of the worst support among any notebook manufacturer, right? If you're worried about trouble, you should really look for something besides a VAIO.

-Zadillo

Chupa Chupa
Aug 25, 2006, 08:51 PM
Ask me, phone support has been pretty lousy for years (at least since 1996 or whenever they instituted the stupid 90-day support rule that doesn't mirror the 1 year warranty.) Call up about an issue outside the 90-days and if AppleCare shoots you down (usually they will) they charge your CC. Crazy since lesser makers, HP and Dell, treat customers better. Meanwhile, you can take the same troubled machine to the Apple Store and usually the Geniuses will get your Mac fixed with little hassle.

A few years ago (I think it was the G4 Quicksilver) a phone support tech told me my (self-installed) ATA/100 hard drive wasn't working on the secondary ATA/66 hard drive bus because it was too fast! I told her that no one has made an ATA/66 hard drive for years. She told me that I shouldn't use a drive on that bus then...even those it was designed specifically for extra hard drives. 2nd Level techs wouldn't help me either. I ended up having to schlep the machine to the Apple Store where the Genius, after a few tests, confirmed I needed a new logic board.

Maybe it's just me, but phone support always wants to dismiss my issue and push me off the phone. When my MBP was whining they told me my hearing was too sensitive! Only months later did they admit a problem. Maybe THAT is why there is a growing dissatisfaction. Personally, I've loathed calling for years.

puuukeey
Aug 25, 2006, 08:55 PM
I recently had an amazing experience witha apple support. I gave up after an hour of calling around but my mother (god bless her soul) decided to make it her mission and spent a whopping nine hours over a period of two days on the phone with apple support. they finally figured out that the applestore had registered my apple care to someone elses computer.

apple did 2000 dollars worth of work for free on my G4 laptop.

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 09:03 PM
Ask me, phone support has been pretty lousy for years (at least since 1996 or whenever they instituted the stupid 90-day support rule that doesn't mirror the 1 year warranty.)

After reading through this thread, doesn't it concern everyone that so many of us have dealt with customer support over the past couple years.

What ever happened to quality control? I am not sure I have ever bought one Apple product since 1996 that I didn't end up calling Apple Customer support because something was wrong.

I remember buying a lot of computers, Apple II's, original macs, Commodore 64's, Amigas, Dells, etc. that never once required a phone call. Now everything I buy from Apple breaks or needs a repair prior to it's warranty running out. I have also had two machines and an ipod go completely bad after the warranty expired.

asiayeah
Aug 25, 2006, 09:16 PM
It seems like a preponderance of the issues people have are with the notebooks.

Do you think it could be because Apple has the thinnest laptops on the market which means they sacrifice build quality and heat management?

When I looked at the innards of an iBook G3 it was basically "a mess" in there...nothing looked modular like you would see inside the new Mac pro.

Apple doesn't has the thinnest laptops on the market.

nbaker756
Aug 25, 2006, 09:20 PM
my dad bought a new 17in MBP and got it a week after it came out-couple days later, the battery would stop working and wouldnt be recognized by the computer-i called apple and by the end of the day i had a box sent to send in the computer-3 days later it was back with a new battery and everything. great service. also i had an airport problem-i brought it into the apple store, they looked at the airport, and in 20 minutes replaced it with a new one for no cost because i had applecare. i feel they have great service next to others, such as dell who i have called before and had a crap load of trouble...

asiayeah
Aug 25, 2006, 09:21 PM
When I read a lot of posts where people complain about Apple service, it seems that it is offten from non-US. Is this my imagination or does Apple need to kick the Arse of their international support groups?
:D

I am sure the customer support is not good in non-US.

Unfortunately Apple is not maintainly a high quality of customer support service throughout the world. It seems Apple is neglecting the areas which is growing fast. This will certainly hinder the growth of Mac OS market share.

ryanw
Aug 25, 2006, 09:26 PM
Funny how I just came across this thread, as I'm in the middle of an Apple support nightmare as well (I have one of those MacBooks that just turns itself off for no reason - completely unacceptable). I have been routed through 12 people over 3 calls, with several promises of "expedited resolution"s but no tangible result.

Although it's possible (and likely) that the prevalence of the MacBook defects have been overblown, I do know that Apple's support process puts you through a lot of hoops to get any major issue resolved (e.g., replacing a clearly defective product). Each person I've talked to has been courteous, but in the end I still have no faith in their ability to actually solve my problem in a timely manner.

Frustrated Apple User

I've seen this happen to me personally... the macbook just shuts down on me. I "THINK" I have linked it to the magnetic money clip in my pocket. I THINK when I put the macbook on my lap it thinks I have shut the cover due to the magnetic latch. Is it possible you're putting near or on something magnetic?

gugy
Aug 25, 2006, 09:33 PM
well, I think Apple support can get much better. Lots of room for improvement.
The usual phone hold is too long and sometimes it takes over 1 hour if you need to talk to a higher up to try to solve your problem

I had my G5 Quad on repair for 3 weeks and during this time the Apple Store and Apple Computer would not give me much clarification about the problem. Meanwhile as a professional I was left without my main computer.
I probably talked with more than 20 people during this process. Very frustrating experience.

The thing I would like to ask Apple is to have a loaner computer program for professionals. I rather pay an additional $100 on Applecare as long I can get a computer with the same power of the one I have during this repair period. That way professionals are not left without their machines or Apple monitors during the ordeal.:(

NicP
Aug 25, 2006, 09:38 PM
Apple support has been very average for me in Australia. I have 2 macbooks being repaired now, they both have multiple problems and have been at the repair place for over a week. I tried to get apple to just replace them but after being fowarded through several departments they told me no. When i have used dell support, I ring up and tell them what the problem is and someone comes to my house to fix the computer the next day. I thought apple was supposed to be better at support than dell?

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 09:51 PM
I thought apple was supposed to be better at support than dell?

I have always exected Dell's support to be top notch and they have never let me down. However,I always paid for the upgraded 3 year support and I have never used the standard 1 year support. I also have always paid for Apple's 3 year AppleCare. In my opinion there is no comparison. Dell is better.

This is one reason I thought that previous surveys always rated Apple too high. The only explaination I could think of that made sense is that Apple has a tremendously loyal fan base. I think this fan base gives Apple rosey numbers and exagerates Apple's support response. Now that Apple marketshare has grown some, I think these users are seeing that it ain't so rosey red at Apple.

srf4real
Aug 25, 2006, 10:01 PM
I hope Apple doesn't go the way of every other corporation that gets huge and loses sight of the bread and butter- customer base. In a world full of computers, I want to be helped by a human with common sense. Apple support has always been good to me, although I haven't needed a thing since buying my G4 mini last summer and signing up a dotmac account. (just to end on a positive note:)

digitalbiker
Aug 25, 2006, 10:09 PM
In a world full of computers, I want to be helped by a human with common sense.

I'm with you on this one! The first thing I do when I reach a phone menu system is try to figure out how to circumvent it so that I can get to a real person.

The problem with menu systems is that they only cover the most likely common user problems. I have been around computers long enough that I can fix all the easy issues. The only time I call is when my problem is serious and phone support never has a menu option for that.

macmax77
Aug 25, 2006, 10:24 PM
I don't know about support, but i must say soemthing is not well..

After been an Apple user since the 80"s i never had a problem with Apple.

Well, my cousin's mac, my friend;s iMac G5, my iBook and my iMac G5 all had problems, we bought them together almost (no more than a year and a half, and they all experienced soem kind of problem, my cousin's is here besides me because the motherboard died and he gave me his screen because my screen had issues.

He went PC.

My friend went PC too , and i am not going there because there is nothing in the world that i hat more than a pc, but i cannot talk like i used to saying how reliable Apples are, they are ****** or have been for me in the alst 2 years:mad: :mad:

After G
Aug 25, 2006, 11:26 PM
I guess I am lucky, but I haven't had problems through all the Macs I have bought. It may be because I haven't bought rev A of any product.

The eMac was 2nd gen. No problems.
The iBook was 2nd to last gen. No problems.
And the Intel Mac mini is just an internals change. We'll wait and see.

If my Intel mini conks out unexpectedly, I will give Apple one more chance, because they haven't worked with Intel hardware extensively like PPC hardware.

At the same time, there is a price to pay for lower prices. Would you be willing to pay premiums for quality? I'm glad Apples are cheaper, but not glad about the downturn in quality. I think I would pay a bit more for quality, myself.

illegalprelude
Aug 26, 2006, 12:10 AM
I guess I am lucky, but I haven't had problems through all the Macs I have bought. It may be because I haven't bought rev A of any product.

The eMac was 2nd gen. No problems.
The iBook was 2nd to last gen. No problems.
And the Intel Mac mini is just an internals change. We'll wait and see.

If my Intel mini conks out unexpectedly, I will give Apple one more chance, because they haven't worked with Intel hardware extensively like PPC hardware.

At the same time, there is a price to pay for lower prices. Would you be willing to pay premiums for quality? I'm glad Apples are cheaper, but not glad about the downturn in quality. I think I would pay a bit more for quality, myself.

were not paying premium? :confused:

MacinDoc
Aug 26, 2006, 12:45 AM
Yep. My serial falls into the range and the website still won't accept it. I guess I will have to sit on hold Monday morning.
According to some people who have spoken with Apple customer service reps, some batteries within the listed ranges were not manufactured by Sony, which is why they don't qualify for replacement. Apparently, there is no easy way for the consumer to identify whether his/her battery is a Sony or not.

I suspect that because of all of the confusion, Apple will end up replacing all of the batteries in the listed ranges, whether they are Sony-manufactured or not, to avoid the wrath of customers who believe they are being ripped off if their batteries don't qualify. In the past, Apple has gone beyond what was required to correct situations that just looked bad.

Maybe this whole thing would have been easier if the serial numbers on the batteries somehow indicated their manufacturer (of course, that's just hindsight, but I hope Apple remembers this in the future).

swingerofbirch
Aug 26, 2006, 02:06 AM
I imagine Apple is upset with Sony.

I know Sony is paying for the battery replacements but I wonder if they reimburse Apple for the customer service and shipping they provide for the recall.

The market seems to demand low prices and I suppose does not demand as much that the products be durable and right the first time.

With PC manufacturers, they usually have two grades--consumer and business.

My university encourages students to buy a Lenovo notebook, but goes out of their way to emphasize that students buy a business model over the consumer models. They say that they are better built with better parts even if they look less flashy at higher prices.

Apple's product line-up is less stratified. All of their products could theoretically be used by business or consumers. Maybe they are falling in between...not reaching the build level of the PC world's "business class"?

CrackedButter
Aug 26, 2006, 02:42 AM
I've owned 4 macs.

First a G3 iBook, then a G4 AluBook, then an eMac and now I'm on a G4 iBook.

NEVER had a problem with any of the machines. They have been great. Just to let you know it isn't all bad. I also pay for .mac and have done for 2 years now. I'm happy with it and yes I get spam but the filter is very good and its hardly an issue for me.

California
Aug 26, 2006, 03:21 AM
I tell you, I've had nothing but trouble with Apple. I'm young, I'm a medical student (so relatively affluent), and I'm a "switcher." I'm their target audience! That switching part though, that was a mistake on my part. Mac OS X is beautiful software, I love it. Unfortunately I've had a lot of problems with the hardware. These days it's enough I wish I still had my IBM/Lenovo laptop--that never gave me problems.

I bought two new computers for the start of the school year, a macbook for me and an iMac for my fiance (sold on the iSights). The iMac arrived with a faulty graphics system. The screen looked like it was in 4-bit mode, but only every other vertical line, sometimes. It was whack, out of the box, and they wanted me to have it repaired. I wanted a new one, or a discount because apparently what I bought was a refurbished computer (that's what I call a new computer that's already gone in for major repair once). That argument lasted hours and required talking with some upper management at Applecare. They were not sympathetic.

My macbook was a greater problem. First of all, it is essential to my life: academics, scientific research and analysis, reports, email, everything. And it started shutting down on my spontaneously. I sent it in for repair. They very quickly replaced the case (why?) and sent it back to me (kudos for speed). Unfortunately they didn't fix the problem and within days it had resumed the spontaneous shutdowns. Sent it back in, not happy, and they kept it for a week. They replaced the case (again, why?). I need something that's reliable every day and now I'm upset. They ship the computer back. The same day I get it back the screen goes black and it won't boot up. It powers on but I can't see anything. With an external monitor I get it working again, but now every single time I start my Macbook I have to reset the PRAM or it won't do anything--black screen. WTF Apple!

Now I call this a lemon. This machine is clearly broken badly. I'm pissed. I call Apple. Applecare technician agrees with me and sends me to a "product specialist" who wants me to again reset the ram and everything the tech just had me do. Then he wants me to send it in for repair again. Absolutely not! This will the third major repair in one month. I want a new computer. Well, he can't really do that he says. I was so angry. An hour later we had contacted Customer Service but their line suddenly went dead mid-conversation and then Mr. Specialist didn't know what to do. He asked me to hold a few minutes. Suddenly he could look into replacing my computer. Three hours on the line already!!! By the end of this he wants me to take my machine to the local Apple Store and they will determine whether they're willing to replace it or not.

Finally I got somewhere when I called corporate to complain. Another hour on the phone and several legal documents faxed back and forth (honestly, legal documents indemnifying them of further claims!), and supposedly a replacement computer is now on its way to me. Not that I have a tracking number or any way to verify this is actually the case.

I didn't know Apple before the Intel switch, but I'm deeply disappointed. In fact I recommend to anyone who asks to avoid purchasing an Apple computer. The hardware obviously has serious flaws and is unreliable. The tech support, as far as it goes is excellent, but it doesn't go far at all.

That has been my experience. This kind of service will nip Apple's success in the bud. They better change something and fast.

Dude. You bought Rev. A machines. I've bought -- EIGHTEEN Macs over the past two years and -- nope NO problems. Granted, they are all PowerPc Macs. Just bought the final Rev. PowerPC 12" Powerbook G4 last week. I'm pleased as punch.

Sorry about your luck but you bought Rev. A machines. The only Rev A machine I ever bought from Apple was the Titanium (tibook) 400mhz G4 Powerbook in August of 2001. Three years later, almost to the day the warranty ended, Apple replaced almost the whole machine under Applecare. That was about my only trouble with Apple, and the problem with the machine was that I was really scared and all thumbs when it came to putting in a stick of memory -- broke the holders and they sent a whole new logic board. That machine is still going strong, with a DayStar CPU upgrade, in a friend's office, and it's got years left in her.

Three of my friends still are on 1998 and 1999 iMacs, going strong with new harddrives only. Two of my other friends are on 2001 and 2000 year iMacs -- one with the same hard drive. Two friends are on 2001/2000 iBooks, going strong. My sister and two other friends are on year 2002 iMacs. All kicking butt. Personally, I prefer my year 2002 667mhz VGA Titanium Powerbook (on it right now) to my other machines and will be upgrading the CPU to 1.2ghz in a few months at Daystar. All to say that Apple makes kickbutt machines. Sorry about your luck. Oh, and again, forgot to mention that since i've been on Apple since 1989, I never had a virus. I bought NOrton Anti Virus out of ignorance once inthe 90's and once in 2002, but promptly took it off the puters, unnecessary.

If I were you, I'd have started off with the top of the line G5 2.1ghz 20" iMac (with iSight) and a 14" 1.42ghz iBook. You understand, these are the top of the line of the great PowerPC line of Apple products. It's like buying a 1989 560SL Mercedes (last year) or a 1968 Mustang convertible. I'd ask Apple for a trade 'em in for your rev a machines at least until Rev C Mactels.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 26, 2006, 03:32 AM
... what you, "a consumer", spends his hard-earned money for, you should expect a product with an acceptable life-span, period!

Don't be too forgiving, when you get a lemon, whoever made it, just demand a replacement. Anything less means you get a fixed lemon, and probably waited for it days or weeks. It is unfortunate that manufacturers get away with murder, when you let them...

Whatever we buy, we want the single engine plane NOT to stop in mid-air, the car to run, and the brakes to brake, the computer to compute, the harddrive to last, the battery not to melt, and the screen not to flicker, etc. etc.

If this still happens it means the manufacturer, and those who should kick their butt in terms of QC, are simply not doing their job.

I don't get paid if I don't do my job. Anyone out there who does not get my meaning???

satzzz
Aug 26, 2006, 03:38 AM
Not everywhere is the apple support poor. Here in the netherlands I can't complain about the service and support!

I think it is also because of the knowlegde of apple. They have worked years with the "old" powermacs, and they know how to repair or support every problem and/or hardware, just because there expirience..

Now apple is switching to Intel, They don't have that expirience that they had with the "old" powermacs...

ryanw
Aug 26, 2006, 03:44 AM
I've owned 4 macs.

First a G3 iBook, then a G4 AluBook, then an eMac and now I'm on a G4 iBook.

NEVER had a problem with any of the machines. They have been great. Just to let you know it isn't all bad. I also pay for .mac and have done for 2 years now. I'm happy with it and yes I get spam but the filter is very good and its hardly an issue for me.

If you haven't been reading the comments, it would appear MOST people are complaining about the more recent models. I would agree with most that the Powermac G5's have had serious issues and now recent macbook's... Apple needs to do one of the following ... Higher Quality Assurance testing OR better support cause right now they're missing both.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 26, 2006, 04:34 AM
Now apple is switching to Intel, They don't have that expirience that they had with the "old" powermacs...

...When the APPLE management decided to go with the INTEL platform, I considered that an intelligent decision, even though I think they should have kept the door open to AMD (maybe they have internally). At the same time they knew the possible problems, and should have done their soft- as well as hardware-homework, like R&D. Now it seems they do what MS has been doing for the past decades with their problem stricken OS's... let the poor consumer do it for them... Very bad policy!

I will buy a MBP, but will wait until things get better. By doing so I probably will get the benefit of an new formfactor, the MEROM, a faster FSB, maybe even a higher resolution on the 17"... We'll see.

Henri Gaudier
Aug 26, 2006, 04:34 AM
Every time I read a thread on Apple's reliability or Apple's service I rarely see my experiences mirrored but this time there seems to be a lot of disatisfied people out there. I've had nearly a dozen Macs and everyone has either died or needed something major correcting. And everytime the service from Apple has been diabolical. EVERYTIME. Often native Dutch or German centres I think. How can this be with all of these Apple are great stories? "Our customer satisfaction is very high" Schiller *****!! And as for the Indian call centre closing down as quickly as it opened remark - well that just shows you Apples attitude to workers rights doesn't it. Globalisation crap. Apple are a wank capitalist corp that designs nice products and then they get someone else to make them in the cheapest way possible. All this idolatry. There service may be good in the US for whatever reasons, pride or US consumer expectations but when they travel abroad they don't give a *****. Trust me. If only there was some way out but after the thousands I've spent on software... there's no changing.

kresh
Aug 26, 2006, 04:41 AM
If you haven't been reading the comments, it would appear MOST people are complaining about the more recent models. I would agree with most that the Powermac G5's have had serious issues and now recent macbook's... Apple needs to do one of the following ... Higher Quality Assurance testing OR better support cause right now they're missing both.

I'm 40 years old and literally can't remember how many computers I have purchased for personal use. I normally only keep a computer for 5 or 6 months before getting something newer. I know I had to have purchased 50 or 60 computers for personal use.

My very first Apple product was a 1.25GHz G4 Mac Mini. (March 2005 I think) On advice from a friend, I purchased this computer and he helped me over-clock it to 1.58GHz and upgrade to 1GB ram.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a power user, but I absolutely love this little computer. It's the best piece of electronics I have ever purchased, and it's the longest time I have ever kept a computer. I just can't imagine using any other operating system, for ANY reason.

My whole household is now all macs, my wife and 4 kids each have one. The 6 mac mini's that we have in our house are unconditionally flawless.

I was going to put my Mini on eBay this weekend and get a MacBook Saturday at the Apple store in Raleigh. I was assuming the MacBook was a Mini in a notebook case, but now I'm scared of doing so. If the MacBook is not as nice and reliable as my mini, I would be extremely upset.

Sorry to ramble on so, but it is really rare for me to find a product, or anything, that has impressed me as much as my Mini has.

After the long story, would any of you really recommend the MacBook vs my Mini (knowing that I love it so)?

CrackedButter
Aug 26, 2006, 04:41 AM
If you haven't been reading the comments, it would appear MOST people are complaining about the more recent models. I would agree with most that the Powermac G5's have had serious issues and now recent macbook's... Apple needs to do one of the following ... Higher Quality Assurance testing OR better support cause right now they're missing both.

Maybe so about the recent models but...

G3 iBooks suffered greatly from logic board problems, I didn't have any, AluBooks when they came out had loads of troubles with their screens and the palm rests and eMac's had their fair share of issues as well. I didn't suffer either on either of those issues.

My point is: It doesn't matter if it is intel or PPC designs. Hardware is going to fail and its potluck on how when and why.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 26, 2006, 05:11 AM
It is time APPLE implements clear policies for their WW operations in terms of repairs, returns, and the like. It is not enough, when the service in the US or UK is great it must be great everywhere, including Hongkong and the Mainland. That would send a signal to all those switchers, turned off by the what they read here and their own experiences.

There is no perfection, but at least APPLE should strive visibly in that direction.

AppleJustWorks
Aug 26, 2006, 05:19 AM
in my experience, their support has always sucked..even from day 1 with my first PowerMac G5 back in 2004.

Let's see...

PowerMac G5 arrived with a defective superdrive, miscalibrated fans. The genius 'couldn't hear the fans', and accidentally put the repair in someone else's name, so when I tried to pick it up, I had to haggle to get it. Oh, and when I did finally get it, the superdrive was still broken. Super...

Cinema Display arrived with 7 dead pixels...I know this is a touchy issue, but the problem with their support regarding it was that none of them knew the actual number to replace it at. The phone people told me 5, the store (after the 45 minute drive there) told me 15, and another rep (who finally replaced it) told me 3.

iMac G5 had a defective power supply on arrival--would shut off randomly, some times not turning on. They refused to acknowledge this the first time we were there...the second time we were there...third time...fourth time they gave in--by saying "we'll keep it overnight." They still.."couldn't find a problem." When they gave it back, it worked for..two weeks, then the fans started being wonky. They couldn't hear that the first or second visit, on the third visit they took it overnight, "couldn't hear any audible issue", but it shutdown on them. I guess taking our word for it, they replaced the fan assembly, logic board, and power supply. Worked for a month, now it still shuts down.

MacBook Pro had the defective battery (random shutdowns), now fixed. Also, I had the screen buzz (now fixed), CPU A Whine (now fixed). They basically fixed all the issues in this machine, but were four days over their expected return time.

I'm not saying their support is totally crap, but they're certainly not consistent in performance, technical knowledge, friendliness, or even coverage. I was talking to a friend about "what I'd do if I were Steve Jobs," and the first thing we agreed on was to fire the entire AppleCare department, and all the genius', because they all seem to suck.

But hey, my iBook G4 and MacBook are fine...

daneoni
Aug 26, 2006, 05:38 AM
Might as well add my story. My 2005 PB (non Hi-Res) i bought in august 05 started forcefully going to sleep. The genius almost gave me hell saying he couldnt prove anything and that i should re-install...yeah that'll happen.

Luckily every record of the sleeps could be found in console logs so i simply save them and marched down there the next day. This time he had no choice but to take it in. After supposedly getting fixed i picked up the laptop,got home, powered it up and lo and behold it slept in like 10 seconds and had a wonky trackpad. Took it back and they replaced the MLB again this time giving me a 1.67 MLB (i had a 1.5GHz).

I got home and things were fine for a while until the powerbook this time refused to go to sleep talk about irony. Off to the Apple store again, took it in again this time for about a week and a half (this is the only machine i have) and when it came back "fixed" i had been given my original MLB (my clock speed was now back to 1.5GHz, my serial number was back to what it was after not having one due to replacements) and there were scratches and crud on the casing. In essence i wasted my time completely.

I immidiately took it home and sold it as is, i just couldn't be bothered to complain anymore.

Hmmm support could be better but it could also be worse.

PS i'm in the UK.

andrewfee
Aug 26, 2006, 05:38 AM
Apple support in the UK is terrible. :( When I had an iMac G5 (Rev.A) I had no end of problems and was without the machine for at least 2-3 months. (which actually cost me some work, as I had just started to do some web design for a local business)

After 5 faults (the last two being it coming back from repair with a damaged screen and a dead hard drive) I eventually convinced them to replace it, but rather than getting another iMac, I figured I'd go for a "safe" option and go for a Rev.D Powerbook as I figured they would have sorted out all the faults. Now, to be fair, I did get a maxed out 17" one as compensation (although they screwed that up and I had to get the RAM sent out separately and fit it myself) but I'd rather have had a perfectly working iMac.

Not much with the Powerbook either though - I had a dead sound board within a couple of weeks of owning it (which meant I was without it for a week or so) and I've now been without the proper use of it for two months again. When it came back from service the first time after being "fixed" it had this:

http://static.flickr.com/61/200198290_8368452c2c.jpg

I've had an iSkin cover on it from day one, so it couldn't have been caused by me (see the next pic) and other than a hairline scratch next to the trackpad (you can't even see it in the photo) it was perfect - it hasn't even been out of my house. Not the first scratched machine I've had either. (if I remember correctly, the first Powerbook was scratched out of the box)


The screen brightness wasn't fixed either, they just disabled my calibrated profile, which gets back maybe 5cd/m2:
http://static.flickr.com/64/200198281_9d631b8680.jpg

As you can see, it used to be quite good:
http://static.flickr.com/56/130208615_cb043ed264.jpg

They replaced the main logic board, but the buzzing that started (and it makes "chirping" noises when running iMovie) is still there.

Funnily enough, as soon as I called to complain, they got the part in the next day (or so they claim) and have said I should have it back next week. I've been told to call up again next Thursday - if I have it back (and working!) by then, I'll be entitled to some kind of compensation, if not, then they'll sort out a replacement machine.

For 280 I'm appalled at the level of service.

I've had far more downtime since switching to a Mac than any other computer - back when I had a store-bought PC years ago from somewhere local, I was without it maybe for a week over a period of several years. When I started building my own machines (at least 5/6 years ago now) that was down to a matter of days. (I could either pick up the parts locally the same day, or order online with next-day shipping)

Since buying the first iMac G5 (got one the day they were available, if I remember correctly) it must have been at least 4-6 months I've been without my computer now. (right now I'm now back to using an old PC I've built from spare parts - but there are at least two parts on their way out - keeps crashing and sometimes refuses to boot, but I'm not going to be buying more hardware for it, unless Apple want to pay the bill)

It probably wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that I'm disabled, and my only real contact with the "outside world" and friends is via the internet.

I absolutely love the OS, and Apple's software, and the hardware is fantastic when it works, but I'm having doubts as to whether my next machine will be from them or not. (realistically, I don't think I could drop OSX for Windows, but I can't believe how unreliable these things are)

At least they're not as bad as Samsung though - they had my two-month-old LCD HDTV in repair for over four months (the store said I had to wait for the repair to be done and get them the TV back to get a refund) which left me with a 14" Portable CRT during that time, and when I eventually did get it back, it went up in smoke as soon as I plugged it in and turned it on - literally! :eek:

AdeFowler
Aug 26, 2006, 05:47 AM
How depressing :o

It seems to me that there are very few clear policies at Apple Support; it often depends on who you talk to. For example;

my 15" PowerBook had a stuck red pixel. I rang Apple and the guy said "Sorry but that's within acceptable limits (for Apple)". I put the phone down and rang again. The next guy said it was totally unacceptable and insisted on sending me a new machine.

I'm on the verge of getting a friend to buy a MacBook but I'm seriously scared, having preached to her for years about Apple's legendary quality and support.

If you're reading this Steve, spend your next $100m on staff training ;)

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 26, 2006, 05:57 AM
in my experience, their support has always sucked..even from day 1 with my first PowerMac G5 back in 2004.

Let's see...

PowerMac G5 arrived with a defective superdrive, miscalibrated fans. The genius 'couldn't hear the fans', and accidentally put the repair in someone else's name, so when I tried to pick it up, I had to haggle to get it. Oh, and when I did finally get it, the superdrive was still broken. Super...

Cinema Display arrived with 7 dead pixels...I know this is a touchy issue, but the problem with their support regarding it was that none of them knew the actual number to replace it at. The phone people told me 5, the store (after the 45 minute drive there) told me 15, and another rep (who finally replaced it) told me 3.

iMac G5 had a defective power supply on arrival--would shut off randomly, some times not turning on. They refused to acknowledge this the first time we were there...the second time we were there...third time...fourth time they gave in--by saying "we'll keep it overnight." They still.."couldn't find a problem." When they gave it back, it worked for..two weeks, then the fans started being wonky. They couldn't hear that the first or second visit, on the third visit they took it overnight, "couldn't hear any audible issue", but it shutdown on them. I guess taking our word for it, they replaced the fan assembly, logic board, and power supply. Worked for a month, now it still shuts down.

MacBook Pro had the defective battery (random shutdowns), now fixed. Also, I had the screen buzz (now fixed), CPU A Whine (now fixed). They basically fixed all the issues in this machine, but were four days over their expected return time.

I'm not saying their support is totally crap, but they're certainly not consistent in performance, technical knowledge, friendliness, or even coverage. I was talking to a friend about "what I'd do if I were Steve Jobs," and the first thing we agreed on was to fire the entire AppleCare department, and all the genius', because they all seem to suck.

But hey, my iBook G4 and MacBook are fine...

There shouldn't be LUCK involved when buying ANYTHING, including an APPLE:p

seenew
Aug 26, 2006, 06:15 AM
Well, as its been said that only the bad issues get brought up, I'll share my feelings.
I've had nothing but good experience with Apple. When I first got my 5G iPod, I bought the old iTrip along with it from Apple.com at the same time. Well, of course, later I found out that model of iTrip was not compatible. I called Apple up and told them I bought an incompatible product that was listed alongside the 5G iPod on their site. Basically they told me I should be more careful next time to check for compatibility, but then they refunded me the full $40 and told me just to keep the iTrip. I sold it to a friend. :)

Later down the road, I managed to get a HUGE dent in the back of this same iPod, and it died. I sent it in for repairs, and they sent me a new one (or refurb) really quick, and free of charge. It wasn't even covered under the warranty! (physical damage, that is)

I'm running a 20" Intel iMac, and so far for 2 months I've had no problems, and I hear that once you're past the 3 month mark, you're probably good to go, so I'm waiting..

mdriftmeyer
Aug 26, 2006, 06:18 AM
Manufacturing observation:

Back in 1996 every major manufacturer did most of its assembly in the U.S. or Western Europe.

Take a guess where it mainly resides now?

People want a $1000 laptop/notebook. Back in 1996 they'd be lucky to get an DX4/100 Intel PC for $1000 by Digital, HP, Compaq, etc.

Check this old message group Email about the Alpha Processor (Then cutting edge)

http://www.xent.com/summer96/0060.html

If you think offloading manufacturing/assembly to third world countries for pennies on the dollar only gives us cheap and powerful computer to use then you really miss the boat on QA.

You aren't going to get systems for basement prices that include Workstation reliable parts, assembly and longevity from anyone.

Battery flaws that SONY has are affecting many in the industry.

Motherboard designs for these new generation chips will always produce flaws.

Second revision rule of thumb.

When you go and buy a car do you buy the first year of a new model? Or do you wait a year or two?

The Auto Industry has been building cars for over 100 years and they still get horrendous recalls.

Get used to the disposable society. From Blenders, to hairdryers/coffee makers, to major tool manufacturers the days of buy and use for a decade or more cost major bucks and the low end, plastic encased models are tested for failure time frames.

This business market is driving people to purchase every twelve or less months.

I'm still going to wait on revision B of the Mac Pro. I've got more than one operating system/hardware combo and I won't die without the Mac Pro.

gregorsamsa
Aug 26, 2006, 07:17 AM
in my experience, their support has always sucked..even from day 1 with my first PowerMac G5 back in 2004.

Let's see...

PowerMac G5 arrived with a defective superdrive, miscalibrated fans. The genius 'couldn't hear the fans', and accidentally put the repair in someone else's name, so when I tried to pick it up, I had to haggle to get it. Oh, and when I did finally get it, the superdrive was still broken. Super...

Cinema Display arrived with 7 dead pixels...I know this is a touchy issue, but the problem with their support regarding it was that none of them knew the actual number to replace it at. The phone people told me 5, the store (after the 45 minute drive there) told me 15, and another rep (who finally replaced it) told me 3.

iMac G5 had a defective power supply on arrival--would shut off randomly, some times not turning on. They refused to acknowledge this the first time we were there...the second time we were there...third time...fourth time they gave in--by saying "we'll keep it overnight." They still.."couldn't find a problem." When they gave it back, it worked for..two weeks, then the fans started being wonky. They couldn't hear that the first or second visit, on the third visit they took it overnight, "couldn't hear any audible issue", but it shutdown on them. I guess taking our word for it, they replaced the fan assembly, logic board, and power supply. Worked for a month, now it still shuts down.

MacBook Pro had the defective battery (random shutdowns), now fixed. Also, I had the screen buzz (now fixed), CPU A Whine (now fixed). They basically fixed all the issues in this machine, but were four days over their expected return time.

I'm not saying their support is totally crap, but they're certainly not consistent in performance, technical knowledge, friendliness, or even coverage. I was talking to a friend about "what I'd do if I were Steve Jobs," and the first thing we agreed on was to fire the entire AppleCare department, and all the genius', because they all seem to suck.

But hey, my iBook G4 and MacBook are fine...

You, & some others here, have obviously had more than your fair share of bad luck with Apple. Customers paying good money rightly expect to receive faultless products every time. When they don't, it's understandable they're peeved off. In this respect, Apple must do better.

Many others, however, swear by Apple's general reliability & quality of products. (My iBook, bought only last October, is used at least a few hours almost daily. So far, no problems whatsoever!). Fact is, statistics consistently prove Apple still to be one of the best computer manufacturers when it comes to longevity of their products.

PS. I'm not an Apple fanboy. My next computer (a 15.4" laptop) may not even be another Apple. But I'm 100% sure I will buy another Apple computer in future, not least because of the general high quality I know I can expect from Apple compared to many PC manufacturers, & a wonderful OS to boot! - But, then again, if Apple's QC was to deteriorate significantly, & get a consistently growing number of customer complaints...

gauriemma
Aug 26, 2006, 08:12 AM
No, because different versions of the ranges were initially posted only recently has it been clarified...get with the program and stop trying to be a smartass


Get with what program? I went to the support site on the day the recall was announced, checked to see if my serial number was in the range, it wasn't, and I went on with my life. Just to be safe, I even checked back a couple days later, and the ranges were still the same as the first time I checked.

I had to do the same thing wheh I was checking out our Dell laptops at the office. It's really not that difficult a concept. I think some people just like to have something to complain about.

daneoni
Aug 26, 2006, 09:26 AM
Get with what program? I went to the support site on the day the recall was announced, checked to see if my serial number was in the range, it wasn't, and I went on with my life. Just to be safe, I even checked back a couple days later, and the ranges were still the same as the first time I checked.

I had to do the same thing wheh I was checking out our Dell laptops at the office. It's really not that difficult a concept. I think some people just like to have something to complain about.

Some sites were reporting wrong ranges, at the end of the day its which site alerts you first, in my case it was MR and they didnt get it right (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060824134647.shtml) initially which is.......confusing

zelet
Aug 26, 2006, 09:31 AM
After reading through this thread, doesn't it concern everyone that so many of us have dealt with customer support over the past couple years.

What ever happened to quality control? I am not sure I have ever bought one Apple product since 1996 that I didn't end up calling Apple Customer support because something was wrong.

I remember buying a lot of computers, Apple II's, original macs, Commodore 64's, Amigas, Dells, etc. that never once required a phone call. Now everything I buy from Apple breaks or needs a repair prior to it's warranty running out. I have also had two machines and an ipod go completely bad after the warranty expired.

To be fair to Apple - all electronics suck really badly. People have demanded cheap for years so all the manufacturers put the priority on price over quality. Every single piece of electronics is made by some 14 year old Chinese slave... er... laborer. Of course your stuff is going to break.

Washing machines used to last 15 years. They last about 5 (max) now. I have a Palm PDA from high school that still works. The one from College stopped working after 9 months. I bought a brand-new TV that started getting green spots after 4 months. My parents still have a TV that works as good as it could from 10 years ago.

wnurse
Aug 26, 2006, 09:49 AM
Dude. You bought Rev. A machines. I've bought -- EIGHTEEN Macs over the past two years and -- nope NO problems. Granted, they are all PowerPc Macs. Just bought the final Rev. PowerPC 12" Powerbook G4 last week. I'm pleased as punch.

Sorry about your luck but you bought Rev. A machines. The only Rev A machine I ever bought from Apple was the Titanium (tibook) 400mhz G4 Powerbook in August of 2001. Three years later, almost to the day the warranty ended, Apple replaced almost the whole machine under Applecare. That was about my only trouble with Apple, and the problem with the machine was that I was really scared and all thumbs when it came to putting in a stick of memory -- broke the holders and they sent a whole new logic board. That machine is still going strong, with a DayStar CPU upgrade, in a friend's office, and it's got years left in her.

Three of my friends still are on 1998 and 1999 iMacs, going strong with new harddrives only. Two of my other friends are on 2001 and 2000 year iMacs -- one with the same hard drive. Two friends are on 2001/2000 iBooks, going strong. My sister and two other friends are on year 2002 iMacs. All kicking butt. Personally, I prefer my year 2002 667mhz VGA Titanium Powerbook (on it right now) to my other machines and will be upgrading the CPU to 1.2ghz in a few months at Daystar. All to say that Apple makes kickbutt machines. Sorry about your luck. Oh, and again, forgot to mention that since i've been on Apple since 1989, I never had a virus. I bought NOrton Anti Virus out of ignorance once inthe 90's and once in 2002, but promptly took it off the puters, unnecessary.

If I were you, I'd have started off with the top of the line G5 2.1ghz 20" iMac (with iSight) and a 14" 1.42ghz iBook. You understand, these are the top of the line of the great PowerPC line of Apple products. It's like buying a 1989 560SL Mercedes (last year) or a 1968 Mustang convertible. I'd ask Apple for a trade 'em in for your rev a machines at least until Rev C Mactels.

California, it's replies like this that pisses switchers off, even seasones mac users get upset with these replies. What the hell is Rev A?. What idiot argument is this?. That's it ok for apple to make a ****ed-up product cause it's the first version?. What?.. apple just started making computers that they don't know how to make quality products until they already made the first version?. Apple should be horrified at your suggestion. Imagine if no one bought Rev A (whatever the **** that means) machines from Apple. APPLE WOULD GO BROKE!!. There's always Rev A machines when it comes to computers dude. The next mac pro upgrade will use a new processor, faster, new video, more ram, newer harddrive and becomes rev A cause THEY ARE THE FIRST APPLE PRODUCTS TO USE THE NEW UPGRADED PROCESSOR, NEW HARDDIVE, ETC. Really, stop with this nonsense. You are like the 10th idiotic apple fan I have read using this dumb argument.

AppleJustWorks
Aug 26, 2006, 09:56 AM
California, it's replies like this that pisses switchers off, even seasones mac users get upset with these replies. What the hell is Rev A?. What idiot argument is this?. That's it ok for apple to make a ****ed-up product cause it's the first version?. What?.. apple just started making computers that they don't know how to make quality products until they already made the first version?. Apple should be horrified at your suggestion. Imagine if no one bought Rev A (whatever the **** that means) machines from Apple. APPLE WOULD GO BROKE!!. There's always Rev A machines when it comes to computers dude. The next mac pro upgrade will use a new processor, faster, new video, more ram, newer harddrive and becomes rev A cause THEY ARE THE FIRST APPLE PRODUCTS TO USE THE NEW UPGRADED PROCESSOR, NEW HARDDIVE, ETC. Really, stop with this nonsense. You are like the 10th idiotic apple fan I have read using this dumb argument.
Right on. I made the same argument to someone on a different forum, and it's just amazing how fanboy mac users concoct these elaborate theories of why apple screwing up is acceptable.

The point is, by simple logic, yes, the following revisions of a product tend to be more reliable because they've had time to address issues, but no, that doesn't mean (anyone) shouldn't buy a machine purely because of it's revision number. If that was the case, then Apple would be out of business. Period.

BackInTheSaddle
Aug 26, 2006, 10:00 AM
A lot of it is perception...if you don't get a defect, the product is great. But as the chairman of Matsushita (Panasonic) once observed about product quality, no matter how high your standards are, for the person getting a problem unit, your quality is 100% defective. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the essence of it. There are more people buying Apple computers today than ever before, so there will be a much larger volume of problems.

I've had great experiences with Applecare so far, only one instance where I felt the person was reading his answers off a cue card. If I talk to an engineer, I get someone who knows the product, understands the problem I'm explaining and is actually able to solve the problem, in American English so far, thank God. Don't know what tech support is like for those folks outside of the USA and Canada, but Apple gets a big thumbs up from me. (That doesn't apply to .Mac however; Apple REALLY needs to improve support there.)

And for my money, Dell and Toshiba could learn a thing or two from Apple on how to provide tech support.

EagerDragon
Aug 26, 2006, 10:01 AM
I'm the same way. I have had .mac since way back when it was "Free for Life" and I just have gotten used to keeping it. I also keep thinking that ole Jobs and company are going to come up with the killer .mac app that will make .mac indespensible.

I'm still waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
waiting...
:confused:

One more update for .mac in Sept. If they don't give me a compelling reason to continue, next year I will not re-subscribe. There I made my mind. LOL

EagerDragon
Aug 26, 2006, 10:14 AM
I am sure the customer support is not good in non-US.

Unfortunately Apple is not maintainly a high quality of customer support service throughout the world. It seems Apple is neglecting the areas which is growing fast. This will certainly hinder the growth of Mac OS market share.

HEY MACRUMORS personnel, how about creating a poll that ask people that are unhappy with Apple support their region of the world and then share that with Apple and the media. Maybe we can get some fire under their butts and get these people some well deserved help and good service. Please Help!!!!

Most of these people pay more for their MAC thatn we in the US do, I would think they should get at least the same level of quality in service and in hardware. They are also part of our MAC family.

MacSawdust
Aug 26, 2006, 10:40 AM
This nows explains why mine is not valid.

pocketrockets
Aug 26, 2006, 11:33 AM
Does anyone know what happens when you dial Applecare (1800 275 2273) and hit 9? I accidentally did that...

And also, I registered my Applecare and when I go to apple.com/support to see how many days left on the warranty, it says 90 from when the last service was. How come it doesnt say the hundreds of days I should have left.

asiayeah
Aug 26, 2006, 11:44 AM
Im sorry, but when you recall 1.8million batteries, and expect them not to get over laoded with call, your crazy. Dell is making some people wait nearly 70 days to get their replacement. Its a LOT of batteries. Affecting a LOT of users. These things happen.

Because Apple customers care about Apple and they want the best and reasonable services from it. Unfortunately, this is not the current case.

I am sure most people agree that Apple's current way of handling the battery replacements leaves lots of rooms for improvements, particularly in non-US areas.

We also shouldn't feel good just because Dell also does not handle it too well. After all, Dell has more batteries to replace and has a shorter period of time for preparations. Supposingly, Dell provides bargain PCs, while Apple tends to charge a premium for their products. Can't Apple customers deserve better services? Shouldn't Apple be better? Should we all lower our expectations from Apple and ask for a cheaper price instead?

HecubusPro
Aug 26, 2006, 12:01 PM
The best way to let a company know that you're not satisfied with them is to drop their product and go with a competitor. That's one of the reasons why I'm switching from PC to Mac (not that Bill Gates really cares :) )

The worst way to let a company know you're not satisfied with them is to gripe about it on a web board that they don't read (i.e. not their support site.)

If you're dissatisfied, go with something else. I know that's hard for a lot of the followers of the cult of Mac, but if you're that upset, drop Apple and go with a competitor. If it's not that bad, then we'll just have to deal with it whether it improves or not.

Macs and the Mac OS still are the superior products and system. Hopefully Apple will step up to the challenge of a larger user base sooner than later and fix their broken support system.

mdriftmeyer
Aug 26, 2006, 12:37 PM
California, it's replies like this that pisses switchers off, even seasones mac users get upset with these replies. What the hell is Rev A?. What idiot argument is this?. That's it ok for apple to make a ****ed-up product cause it's the first version?. What?.. apple just started making computers that they don't know how to make quality products until they already made the first version?. Apple should be horrified at your suggestion. Imagine if no one bought Rev A (whatever the **** that means) machines from Apple. APPLE WOULD GO BROKE!!. There's always Rev A machines when it comes to computers dude. The next mac pro upgrade will use a new processor, faster, new video, more ram, newer harddrive and becomes rev A cause THEY ARE THE FIRST APPLE PRODUCTS TO USE THE NEW UPGRADED PROCESSOR, NEW HARDDIVE, ETC. Really, stop with this nonsense. You are like the 10th idiotic apple fan I have read using this dumb argument.

Let's make it clear. The first revision of any highly integrated system is produced with an acceptable failure rate. With results coming in, failures recorded and internal testing continuous between the life of the first and second revision you will see a drop in failures in the next revision.

Every item that is in the next revision will have been tested, more flaws removed, etc. No piece of hardware is released with zero defects. [human interference aside such as dropping the product, overheating it, intentionally forcing failure]

If for every 1000 systems shipped approximately 20 fail, after a minimum predicted total hours, this 2% attrition rate is highly desirable. If you can't accept it you can stop using technology, now.

For every ten people bitching on this board about failures there is over 1,000 that don't.

mdriftmeyer
Aug 26, 2006, 12:39 PM
Because Apple customers care about Apple and they want the best and reasonable services from it. Unfortunately, this is not the current case.

I am sure most people agree that Apple's current way of handling the battery replacements leaves lots of rooms for improvements, particularly in non-US areas.

We also shouldn't feel good just because Dell also does not handle it too well. After all, Dell has more batteries to replace and has a shorter period of time for preparations. Supposingly, Dell provides bargain PCs, while Apple tends to charge a premium for their products. Can't Apple customers deserve better services? Shouldn't Apple be better? Should we all lower our expectations from Apple and ask for a cheaper price instead?

You might want to determine whether the way Apple treats its non-US customers is due in part to Apple's negligence or hurdles for doing business in these non-US nations.

mumbo
Aug 26, 2006, 12:49 PM
I called this week to have the mighty mouse that came with my DC 2.3 G5 replaced. The guy was helpful and my new mouse came the next day, from California to Canada. I'm pretty impressed!

ImNoSuperMan
Aug 26, 2006, 01:11 PM
Thank God Apple had shut down Indian Support centre before this happened. Otherwise all the web community would be blaming Indian Call Center for degrading Apple support service even if they were not at fault.

MacinDoc
Aug 26, 2006, 02:38 PM
We also shouldn't feel good just because Dell also does not handle it too well. After all, Dell has more batteries to replace and has a shorter period of time for preparations. Supposingly, Dell provides bargain PCs, while Apple tends to charge a premium for their products. Can't Apple customers deserve better services? Shouldn't Apple be better? Should we all lower our expectations from Apple and ask for a cheaper price instead?
Dell is also a larger company with a larger customer service department and a larger distribution network, which is designed for factory direct to home shipping, so it should have less trouble than Apple with this recall.

With respect to Dell providing bargain PCs, Robert Weston (Associated Press) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060823/ap_on_hi_te/tech_test_mac_pro_3) and Yuval Kossovsky (Computerworld) (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9002545&source=NLT_MAC&nlid=62) have recently concluded that Apple, not Dell, offers the best current bargain PCs (at least for their specs).

backdraft
Aug 26, 2006, 02:49 PM
Call it what you want but these new MacBooks are crap. Yea there is people who are enjoying theirs without a hitch but look at all the reports of problems. Not once on this forum have we had a flood of problems with a single unit. Apple dropped the ball on this one. Poorly made unit

Apple is now getting their parts from the same bin that PC makers use. Intel = cheap parts. Cheap parts = low quality.

Same thing with the batteries....

OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's.

That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org). Instead we have these halfbaked Wintel parts to deal with MUCH fewer problems with PowerPC based Mac's.

http://www.appledefects.com/?cat=6

http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro

50548
Aug 26, 2006, 02:54 PM
Let's make it clear. The first revision of any highly integrated system is produced with an acceptable failure rate. With results coming in, failures recorded and internal testing continuous between the life of the first and second revision you will see a drop in failures in the next revision.

Every item that is in the next revision will have been tested, more flaws removed, etc. No piece of hardware is released with zero defects. [human interference aside such as dropping the product, overheating it, intentionally forcing failure]

If for every 1000 systems shipped approximately 20 fail, after a minimum predicted total hours, this 2% attrition rate is highly desirable. If you can't accept it you can stop using technology, now.

For every ten people bitching on this board about failures there is over 1,000 that don't.

That's exactly what I wanted to say...there are 10 whiners in this MR board that make a lot of noise, compared to 1,000,000 out there that don't...so we always have the impression that Apple is faltering, which is totally nonsense.

What matter are the independent reports and the statistical data that show, continuously, how Apple leads the pack in terms of support, reliability and MTBF; the rest is anecdotal evidence.

It's not only about industrial quality, which often depends on outsourced companies, overseas workers and contractual enforcement. It's also about giving the support a customer needs...and Apple is second to none in that.

Georgie
Aug 26, 2006, 02:55 PM
Dude. You bought Rev. A machines. I've bought -- EIGHTEEN Macs over the past two years and -- nope NO problems. Granted, they are all PowerPc Macs. Just bought the final Rev. PowerPC 12" Powerbook G4 last week. I'm pleased as punch.

Sorry about your luck but you bought Rev. A machines. The only Rev A machine I ever bought from Apple was the Titanium (tibook) 400mhz G4 Powerbook in August of 2001. Three years later, almost to the day the warranty ended, Apple replaced almost the whole machine under Applecare. That was about my only trouble with Apple, and the problem with the machine was that I was really scared and all thumbs when it came to putting in a stick of memory -- broke the holders and they sent a whole new logic board. That machine is still going strong, with a DayStar CPU upgrade, in a friend's office, and it's got years left in her.

Three of my friends still are on 1998 and 1999 iMacs, going strong with new harddrives only. Two of my other friends are on 2001 and 2000 year iMacs -- one with the same hard drive. Two friends are on 2001/2000 iBooks, going strong. My sister and two other friends are on year 2002 iMacs. All kicking butt. Personally, I prefer my year 2002 667mhz VGA Titanium Powerbook (on it right now) to my other machines and will be upgrading the CPU to 1.2ghz in a few months at Daystar. All to say that Apple makes kickbutt machines. Sorry about your luck. Oh, and again, forgot to mention that since i've been on Apple since 1989, I never had a virus. I bought NOrton Anti Virus out of ignorance once inthe 90's and once in 2002, but promptly took it off the puters, unnecessary.

If I were you, I'd have started off with the top of the line G5 2.1ghz 20" iMac (with iSight) and a 14" 1.42ghz iBook. You understand, these are the top of the line of the great PowerPC line of Apple products. It's like buying a 1989 560SL Mercedes (last year) or a 1968 Mustang convertible. I'd ask Apple for a trade 'em in for your rev a machines at least until Rev C Mactels.

Ohhh, Rev A!

I guess I wasn't watching carefully or listening intently when they explained that part in the commercials. Did anyone else hear Mac-dude explain that I would be buying a "Rev A" product and should expect it to fail within three months? Maybe that's what he was saying in Japanese with Camera-chick.

This "Rev A" excuse doesn't hold water. See, had I known that I might not have bought a Mac at all. And if it's true I should expect my $2000 to buy a broken toaster then I also expect Apple to replace it, not make up excuses. As far as that goes, they should pay me to QC their products.

CrackedButter
Aug 26, 2006, 03:07 PM
One more update for .mac in Sept. If they don't give me a compelling reason to continue, next year I will not re-subscribe. There I made my mind. LOL

For some reason I watched this year's MacWorld Keynote again tonight and I didn't realise the amount of new features there are in the new iLife 06. A lot of them deal with .mac. I'm quite happy with those features if and when I get iLife 06 or even a new mac at some point.

I would say they are improving the service but it doesn't happen overnight.

shawnce
Aug 26, 2006, 03:25 PM
Apple is now getting their parts from the same bin that PC makers use. Intel = cheap parts. Cheap parts = low quality.

Same thing with the batteries....

OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's Yet iBooks and PowerBooks (PPC based systems) are part of this most recent battery recall (and a prior one)... it has nothing to do with switching to Intel. Apple has been using standard commodity parts in their systems for a VERY long time now.

...and while you are at the site why not look at some non-Intel based systems...

http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=Titanium_PowerBook_G4
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=PowerBook_12%22
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ibook

backdraft
Aug 26, 2006, 04:30 PM
Yet iBooks and PowerBooks (PPC based systems) are part of this most recent battery recall (and a prior one)... it has nothing to do with switching to Intel. Apple has been using standard commodity parts in their systems for a VERY long time now.

...and while you are at the site why not look at some non-Intel based systems...

http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=Titanium_PowerBook_G4
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=PowerBook_12%22
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ibook

From the looks of it PPC based Mac's have MUCH fewer issues.

APPLENEWBIE
Aug 26, 2006, 05:18 PM
One year ago I was being driven nuts by my three office Windows machines (one custom built, two compaqs). Relatively new machines but it was one damned thing after another. A virus here (with Norton installed) a corrupt file there, a dead hard drive here, a spyware infestation there...and then the anti-idiot Windows warnings at every turn (Are you sure you want to do that? Really really sure. Can't I talk you out of that?) I was at wit's end. I was reinstalling the operating system about every 6 to 9 months. I was convinced by a rep at compusa to try a mac. Now I have no windows machines and four macs. No longer do I wonder what new horror is going to happen and cause me endless hours to fix.

I have had zero hardware problems, and of course, no problems with virus's etc. Life is good. I really think that my experience with windows machines is not all that uncommon. Apple stuff just seems better designed and built.

I think that it is easy to forget just how much better (not perfect) this Apple stuff really is than the Windows world.

wnurse
Aug 26, 2006, 07:04 PM
Let's make it clear. The first revision of any highly integrated system is produced with an acceptable failure rate. With results coming in, failures recorded and internal testing continuous between the life of the first and second revision you will see a drop in failures in the next revision.

Every item that is in the next revision will have been tested, more flaws removed, etc. No piece of hardware is released with zero defects. [human interference aside such as dropping the product, overheating it, intentionally forcing failure]

If for every 1000 systems shipped approximately 20 fail, after a minimum predicted total hours, this 2% attrition rate is highly desirable. If you can't accept it you can stop using technology, now.

For every ten people bitching on this board about failures there is over 1,000 that don't.

I agree.. did you read what he was replying to?. The guy he was replying to detailed how he had a horrible time getting apple to pay attention to him. His reply seemed like he was blaming the guy for buying apple revision A product instead of faulting apple support for jerking this guy around.
Read what he was responding to, i think you will agree his response was ridiculous.

shawnce
Aug 26, 2006, 07:10 PM
From the looks of it PPC based Mac's have MUCH fewer issues. Did you notice that the site was started on June 7th 2006? What do you think it will be skewed towards?

(anyway talk about a site designed for farming ad link related revenue)

Moonlight
Aug 26, 2006, 08:14 PM
I just called Apple support, I was on hold for over 20 minutes, then I was disconnected. No wonder people are unhappy :mad: :( :confused:

LordJohnWhorfin
Aug 26, 2006, 09:05 PM
Most credit cards have very good customer assistance departments and will assist you in dealing with uncooperative vendors.
A while back I bought an iBook for my mom directly from Apple, set it up, and just a few days before leaving to deliver it (she lives in Europe) the damn thing died (it would no longer charge). Called AppleCare, went to the Apple store, talked to the "genius" (a real jackass, but that's another story) and essentially they wouldn't give me a refund because it was a "built to order" machine or exchange it for a new computer because I hadn't bought it at the local Apple store (I bought it online though the developer program).

I called Visa, explained the story, they said you have to try to resolve the issue with the vendor first, I described what I had done and how uncooperative Apple had been. They said they'd call Apple themselves; an hour letter I got an apologetic call from Apple and an RMA number. I shipped my computer back to Apple by FedEx at their expense, and got full credit. They even restored my hardware discount :)

So yeah, as another poster said, the squeaky wheel does get the grease...

MacinDoc
Aug 26, 2006, 11:40 PM
I just called Apple support, I was on hold for over 20 minutes, then I was disconnected. No wonder people are unhappy :mad: :( :confused:
I mentioned this on the battery recall forum, so ignore this post if you've already read it, but I think it may help explain why this sort of thing is happening.
I know it's frustrating to wait to speak to a customer services rep when there's a potential problem with your Mac, but before complaining that Apple has a problem with customer service, let's look at things objectively.

Let's say that Apple sells approximately 12,000 computers per day (a realistic estimate, based on their most recent financial statement). If 1 in 10 customers needs to speak with a customer services rep (this estimate is high, I think, but sometimes more than one consulation is required, so I will be generous with this number), and if a rep can deal with 10 problems per day (a very conservative estimate), then Apple could theoretically provide for all of its computer-related customer service needs with a total of 120 computer-oriented customer support staff (I am excluding iPod customer support staff from this discussion). Now, that number sounds really low, so let's multiply it by 10, for a total of 1200 customer support staff (this would mean that each would normally only have to deal with one customer per day). I understand that 1.8 million batteries were recalled, and this would mean that each customer support rep would have to deal with 1500 recalled batteries. Does anyone think that this can be done, along with all the other usual customer service needs, in a day, a week, or even a month? Apple is going to have to divert staff from other areas to deal with this problem. Remember, the number of batteries recalled is greater than the number of computers Apple ships in a quarter!

Indo
Aug 26, 2006, 11:43 PM
actually when i was in india i read an article saying the center was shut down because the employees were demanding higher wages or something like that.

solvs
Aug 27, 2006, 12:37 AM
That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org).
Ha! $100 million wouldn't come close to even paying for 1 factory to be built, let alone continued costs. I would have loved more PPC machines, but it is what it is, and the new Intel chips are pretty good. At least better than the crappy P4s they're replacing. The G4/5s could have been great, but IBM and Moto/Freescale dropped the ball, and would have continued to do so unless Apple spent somewhere more in the billions, not millions. Maybe not even then. It sucks that quality has gone down as costs have, but such is the nature of the beast. Hopefully something comes of all the complaints, and Apple can get it's act together as well as further find a way to drive down costs without becoming like Dell. I just had to deal with Dell support, and let me tell you, it was not fun.

And for the record, they've been using the same somewhat standard PC parts for awhile now, minus their proprietary chipsets, which BTW are still proprietary.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 27, 2006, 02:46 AM
That's exactly what I wanted to say...there are 10 whiners in this MR board that make a lot of noise, compared to 1,000,000 out there that don't...so we always have the impression that Apple is faltering, which is totally nonsense.

What matter are the independent reports and the statistical data that show, continuously, how Apple leads the pack in terms of support, reliability and MTBF; the rest is anecdotal evidence.

It's not only about industrial quality, which often depends on outsourced companies, overseas workers and contractual enforcement. It's also about giving the support a customer needs...and Apple is second to none in that.

You are talking crap. It is only about industrial quality. Nothing else.
There are simply too many individual issues with the new MB and MBP here, and I do not want to repeat them. Mostly hardware, but some are related to using OSX and MSOS. You can read, so do that.

APPLE has been 'second to none' in the eyes of APPLE users, compared to who? I think MAC OS is fantastic, but it does not mean, that all those who switch now to APPLE have to accept hardware lemons to get this OS... Absolutely no excuse for over 25% crap products delivered to the customers...

Everybody knows that APPLE could have had a 40+ market share, but decided not to license out. We all would be happier now, but JOBS decided against that years back. So now we are talking about a less than 5% market share... JUst do your math: If they had a 40% share WW, we would hear millions screaming about their lemons...

It seems there's too much luck involved when buying an APPLE product right now.
When they finally get their QC act together I will gladly buy their product.

Cheers, and no hard feelings.

50548
Aug 27, 2006, 02:56 AM
You are talking crap. It is only about industrial quality. Nothing else.
There are simply too many individual issues with the new MB and MBP here, and I do not want to repeat them. Mostly hardware, but some are related to using OSX and MSOS. You can read, so do that.

APPLE has been 'second to none' in the eyes of APPLE users, compared to who? I think MAC OS is fantastic, but it does not mean, that all those who switch now to APPLE have to accept hardware lemons to get this OS... Absolutely no excuse for over 25% crap products delivered to the customers...

Everybody knows that APPLE could have had a 40+ market share, but decided not to license out. We all would be happier now, but JOBS decided against that years back. So now we are talking about a less than 5% market share... JUst do your math: If they had a 40% share WW, we would hear millions screaming about their lemons...

It seems there's too much luck involved when buying an APPLE product right now.
When they finally get their QC act together I will gladly buy their product.

Cheers, and no hard feelings.

No hard feelings indeed, but please show me numbers and facts, not anecdotal evidence of some dozens/hundreds of people (as compared to millions of purchasers). I will take your point when you do that, thanks very much. And really, to say that 25% of Apple products are lemons is to be, at very least, extremely glib.

Besides, if Apple is able to replace/fix those that have problems, there is no reason to complain whatsoever...this is what guarantees and technical support are for.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 27, 2006, 04:46 AM
No hard feelings indeed, but please show me numbers and facts, not anecdotal evidence of some dozens/hundreds of people (as compared to millions of purchasers). I will take your point when you do that, thanks very much. And really, to say that 25% of Apple products are lemons is to be, at very least, extremely glib.

Besides, if Apple is able to replace/fix those that have problems, there is no reason to complain whatsoever...this is what guarantees and technical support are for.

Especially the last paragraph of your rebuttal shows that you have not read ALL the threads about MB and MBp problems. I really would like to hear you, when you had your MBP replaced 3 times and still have problems... I have friends who just upgraded to MBPs all have one or more problems, ranging from screen, heat, whine, keyboard, and other problems, some of which they still have to discover. Sorry, buddy, but it truly looks like getting a good MBP is LUCK. I own a couple of laptops, my oldest ones are 9 years old (TOSHIBA), and never ever did I have problems like the ones described on these boards.
Proof my butt.... Wouldn"t it be nice if these threads had only happy APPLE fans? Dream on.

We are consumers, and should not accept getting a refurb lemon... but a new, preferably working product.

gregorsamsa
Aug 27, 2006, 08:27 AM
You are talking crap. It is only about industrial quality. Nothing else.
There are simply too many individual issues with the new MB and MBP here, and I do not want to repeat them. Mostly hardware, but some are related to using OSX and MSOS. You can read, so do that.

APPLE has been 'second to none' in the eyes of APPLE users, compared to who? I think MAC OS is fantastic, but it does not mean, that all those who switch now to APPLE have to accept hardware lemons to get this OS... Absolutely no excuse for over 25% crap products delivered to the customers...

Everybody knows that APPLE could have had a 40+ market share, but decided not to license out. We all would be happier now, but JOBS decided against that years back. So now we are talking about a less than 5% market share... JUst do your math: If they had a 40% share WW, we would hear millions screaming about their lemons...

It seems there's too much luck involved when buying an APPLE product right now.
When they finally get their QC act together I will gladly buy their product.

Cheers, and no hard feelings.

Yes, people have every right to complain when they receive faulty products, particularly so when they're paying good money, as they do when buying Apple. But whether Apple's QC has suffered significantly as they try to keep costs down due to the market pressures of increasingly feasible like-with-like comparisons with PCs, as well as meeting an increasing consumer demand, is debatable? Though there certainly seems to be a worrying increase in complaints about the new Intel Macs, I wonder how much of that is down to perception as more people use the internet as a channel to vent their complaints? Regarding the new Intel Macs, the jury here is still very much out (& will remain so for at least another 6 months). Not least because...

Recent surveys continue to give Apple an excellent rating for overall quality when compared to other brands. (Only Sony's computers get similar ratings). Talking about "25% crap products" may feel good as a rhetorical release, but it doesn't really help the debate here.

Good point, however, about how Apple's market share could've been so much greater if only SJ had licensed out OS X. A great opportunity missed.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 27, 2006, 09:48 AM
Yes, people have every right to complain when they receive faulty products, particularly so when they're paying good money, as they do when buying Apple. But whether Apple's QC has suffered significantly as they try to keep costs down due to the market pressures of increasingly feasible like-with-like comparisons with PCs, as well as meeting an increasing consumer demand, is debatable? Though there certainly seems to be a worrying increase in complaints about the new Intel Macs, I wonder how much of that is down to perception as more people use the internet as a channel to vent their complaints? Regarding the new Intel Macs, the jury here is still very much out (& will remain so for at least another 6 months). Not least because...

Recent surveys continue to give Apple an excellent rating for overall quality when compared to other brands. (Only Sony's computers get similar ratings). Talking about "25% crap products" may feel good as a rhetorical release, but it doesn't really help the debate here.

Good point, however, about how Apple's market share could've been so much greater if only SJ had licensed out OS X. A great opportunity missed.



Thanks mate, of course I vent my disappointment regarding the overall quality issues. In any case, it should not be luck to catch a good piece of hardware from a company like APPLE, right? It seems as if the hardware quality has in general decreased, I suspect partly because of the place where this hardware is now manufactured... CHINA. I have my own experience on a corporate level with a large mobile phone manufacturer...

I found that there is a general lack of understanding what quality should be, and especially how long it should last:rolleyes:

CIAO

50548
Aug 27, 2006, 10:43 AM
Especially the last paragraph of your rebuttal shows that you have not read ALL the threads about MB and MBp problems. I really would like to hear you, when you had your MBP replaced 3 times and still have problems... I have friends who just upgraded to MBPs all have one or more problems, ranging from screen, heat, whine, keyboard, and other problems, some of which they still have to discover. Sorry, buddy, but it truly looks like getting a good MBP is LUCK. I own a couple of laptops, my oldest ones are 9 years old (TOSHIBA), and never ever did I have problems like the ones described on these boards.
Proof my butt.... Wouldn"t it be nice if these threads had only happy APPLE fans? Dream on.

We are consumers, and should not accept getting a refurb lemon... but a new, preferably working product.

Well, it seems like you are the one having hard feelings...so chill out, since we all try to be polite in this forum...otherwise, just go visit some other place where you can vent your anger on people.

As I said above, I am talking about facts and statistics...I am sure there a few cases where guys are just unlucky and receive one lemon after another...but this does NOT represent a trend nor a relevant percentage. You must have this impression because you go to an Apple Support forum and see 100 posts complaining the hell out of it...you just fail, and fail badly, to realize that there are some 1,000,000 users out there with no problems at all.

Anyway, before you start babbling again, check the link below...these are FACTS, not whines.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006502,00.asp

So please, before you spit out some fire, bring me some real facts, like percentage of failures and so on...the report I've read above shows Apple as having the LOWEST repair rate and HIGHEST trust of all makers. This, for me, is relevant; not random screams in Mac forums.

EagerDragon
Aug 27, 2006, 11:03 AM
Apple is now getting their parts from the same bin that PC makers use. Intel = cheap parts. Cheap parts = low quality.

Same thing with the batteries....

OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's.

That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org). Instead we have these halfbaked Wintel parts to deal with MUCH fewer problems with PowerPC based Mac's.

http://www.appledefects.com/?cat=6

http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro

If Apple could not get IBM to provide cooler and more powerful chips back then with the full set of customers behind them......... what makes you think that the pro comunity will be able to do so?

I have no idea what the pro vs the rest of us is but I am sure it is less than 100% of all users, as such it is less likely.

IBM has no incentive to produce a cool and fast chip, our pro comunity also wants performance to create all those videos and edit all those photos.

There are a few snags, but they will iron them out. I am glad they did the switch to Intel. Do notice from my signature I do not yet own one, I am waiting for Leopard to take full advantage of the Intel chips. So this time next year I will be looking to get my 1 or 2 additional systems based on SantaRosa and Leopard.

gregorsamsa
Aug 27, 2006, 11:36 AM
Thanks mate, of course I vent my disappointment regarding the overall quality issues. In any case, it should not be luck to catch a good piece of hardware from a company like APPLE, right? It seems as if the hardware quality has in general decreased, I suspect partly because of the place where this hardware is now manufactured... CHINA. I have my own experience on a corporate level with a large mobile phone manufacturer...

I found that there is a general lack of understanding what quality should be, and especially how long it should last:rolleyes:

CIAO

I agree, it shouldn't be luck. Also, whilst I'm trying to keep an open mind about these issues, I think it's pertinent that quite a few people have pointed to the China-connection as partly responsible for some of the hardware problems. I guess a company like Dell, who sell some very cheap computers, can always get away with imperfect products more so. Because people buying Apple know that they're paying a premium for a certain extra Apple quality, they're entitled to expect Apple to consistently deliver.

I'm definitely not going to excuse Apple for a seemingly alarming number of faults with their first batch of Intel laptops. There's an apparent problem here, however debatable the degree of it, & it needs sorting out. I'd be interested, however, in seeing some statistics about the percentage of faulty laptops from Apple, perhaps over a 12 month period, & how that compares with similarly-priced PC laptops.

Certainly, before I make my next computer purchase (a 15.4" laptop next year), I'll be paying careful attention to Macrumors, & particularly any postings about the quality, or otherwise, of the latest Mac computers.

digitalbiker
Aug 27, 2006, 12:01 PM
Anyway, before you start babbling again, check the link below...these are FACTS, not whines.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006502,00.asp

So please, before you spit out some fire, bring me some real facts, like percentage of failures and so on...the report I've read above shows Apple as having the LOWEST repair rate and HIGHEST trust of all makers. This, for me, is relevant; not random screams in Mac forums.

While I don't disagree with what you have said, I also think this PC Mag Poll may be a little misrepresentive of the current situation.

This is a readers poll from PC Mag users, I wonder how many are Mac users compared to PC users.

Second, they also state that Apple users are so fanatical and anti-pc that they are worried that they tend to exagerate the poll numbers in favor of Apple.

Third, the only less-subjective bit of information was the repair percentage numbers and the numbers they used were for last year (2005), so they would not reflect any problems with the new mac-intel machines. It seems like most of the issues currently being discussed are with the Mac-Intels.

Surreal
Aug 27, 2006, 02:11 PM
jeez, i thought the thread might cool off in a day or so, but there is no sign of that happening, is there?


well, i have wondered for some time, how many people have had problems with the 17" mavbook pros?


i have one...it's fine. i heard a few small scale problems about it, but nothing on the scale of the 15"

mdriftmeyer
Aug 27, 2006, 07:33 PM
Especially the last paragraph of your rebuttal shows that you have not read ALL the threads about MB and MBp problems. I really would like to hear you, when you had your MBP replaced 3 times and still have problems... I have friends who just upgraded to MBPs all have one or more problems, ranging from screen, heat, whine, keyboard, and other problems, some of which they still have to discover. Sorry, buddy, but it truly looks like getting a good MBP is LUCK. I own a couple of laptops, my oldest ones are 9 years old (TOSHIBA), and never ever did I have problems like the ones described on these boards.
Proof my butt.... Wouldn"t it be nice if these threads had only happy APPLE fans? Dream on.

We are consumers, and should not accept getting a refurb lemon... but a new, preferably working product.

I had my iBook G4 14in completely gutted due to be replete with defects. Apple returned it with a new logic board, DVD drive, hard drive, LCD Panel, and more.

AppleCare covered it all. You're not going to hear me whine that this is a problem when the warranty did its job.

Downtime from computing was zero as I have a second workstation. The time was 1 week from shipping to return shipping.

It's been purring since now for 15 months and counting. I use it for Cocoa Development until revision B of the Mac Pro arrives.

mdriftmeyer
Aug 27, 2006, 07:45 PM
Yes, people have every right to complain when they receive faulty products, particularly so when they're paying good money, as they do when buying Apple. But whether Apple's QC has suffered significantly as they try to keep costs down due to the market pressures of increasingly feasible like-with-like comparisons with PCs, as well as meeting an increasing consumer demand, is debatable? Though there certainly seems to be a worrying increase in complaints about the new Intel Macs, I wonder how much of that is down to perception as more people use the internet as a channel to vent their complaints? Regarding the new Intel Macs, the jury here is still very much out (& will remain so for at least another 6 months). Not least because...

Recent surveys continue to give Apple an excellent rating for overall quality when compared to other brands. (Only Sony's computers get similar ratings). Talking about "25% crap products" may feel good as a rhetorical release, but it doesn't really help the debate here.

Good point, however, about how Apple's market share could've been so much greater if only SJ had licensed out OS X. A great opportunity missed.

OEM licensing OS X would not be a panacea. I supported NeXTSTEP/Openstep for NeXT and Apple. We had a nightmare dealing with OEMs who pushed us into the trash heap.

When the merger happened they showed no more interest knowing that we could move the OS to Intel since we had it running on Intel.

Motherboard manufacturers cut corners. OEMs cut all sorts of corners on their I/O cards.

Corralling all necessary OEMs to stick to a specific spec would be a nightmare.

Vista is a classic example of diluting your OS. Five years and counting.

Apple is both a hardware and software company.

The price for their latest Mac Pro shows how price competitive it is with the rest of the industry.

Having built several clone boxes none of them from the case design, integrated motherboard design, controller design, heat transfer requirements, etc comes close to the Mac Pro. It doesn't include Hardware RAID out of the box. Big deal.

When the clone industry can produce cases in general that compete for structural integrity, motherboards with as few cables, easily maintanable cases that are easy to keep dust free then Apple might feel concerned about it's claim to having the most complete experience.

OS X has shortcomings in areas for Engineering (CAD/CAM, FEM, etc. All 3rd party concerns), Games (3rd party concerns, OpenGL 2 concerns that Apple will fix), Vertical Solution concerns (assuming Apple wants to attack the business sectors they will have to address this lack of productivity tools for Finance & Accounting within iWorks) and some other deficiencies.

They are covering their bases and growing their base, quarter by quarter.

When ROME is finally built are we all going to whine that you can save $50 here or there with a clone?

I expect no less.

Macinbest
Aug 28, 2006, 01:50 AM
They are indeed having support problems...

I sent my iMac in for repairs at a service center on July 24th (they changed the power supply, HD, superdrive), and I didn't have the computer back until August 25th!!!! 32 days! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Called the store many times and they were waiting for apple to ship the parts... called Apple and I was forwarded to their Dispatch dept. and indeed nothing had been sent.. :mad:

I wonder... could I possibly complain enough to get my AppleCare reimbursed or something as a compensation.. I mean 32 days without my main computer... coding on a 12" ibook 600 has been rather aggravating.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 28, 2006, 07:09 AM
Well, it seems like you are the one having hard feelings...so chill out, since we all try to be polite in this forum...otherwise, just go visit some other place where you can vent your anger on people.

As I said above, I am talking about facts and statistics...I am sure there a few cases where guys are just unlucky and receive one lemon after another...but this does NOT represent a trend nor a relevant percentage. You must have this impression because you go to an Apple Support forum and see 100 posts complaining the hell out of it...you just fail, and fail badly, to realize that there are some 1,000,000 users out there with no problems at all.

Anyway, before you start babbling again, check the link below...these are FACTS, not whines.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006502,00.asp

So please, before you spit out some fire, bring me some real facts, like percentage of failures and so on...the report I've read above shows Apple as having the LOWEST repair rate and HIGHEST trust of all makers. This, for me, is relevant; not random screams in Mac forums.


Really no hard feelings. You are right, and the professionals who do test and write reports
are making their reports up... Statisics, as we all know can be made to look one way or the other. The fact, that APPLE is acknowledging quality issues just proves that they themselves are not happpy with what's going on since the intro of the new MB and MBPs.

It is old wisdom that there's less or no talk about a perfect product, while the bad smell of quality issues lingers on for some time. But the APPLE forums a different in that plenty of people have been and are very happy with the value they got for their money... and speak out. How, however, can those understand the feelings of someone who received three lemons in a row, when she/he himself never had any problem???

All I want is to have better than 80 % chance to get a good product.

Take care.

gregorsamsa
Aug 28, 2006, 07:35 AM
OEM licensing OS X would not be a panacea. I supported NeXTSTEP/Openstep for NeXT and Apple. We had a nightmare dealing with OEMs who pushed us into the trash heap.

When the merger happened they showed no more interest knowing that we could move the OS to Intel since we had it running on Intel.

Motherboard manufacturers cut corners. OEMs cut all sorts of corners on their I/O cards.

Corralling all necessary OEMs to stick to a specific spec would be a nightmare.

Vista is a classic example of diluting your OS. Five years and counting.

Apple is both a hardware and software company.

The price for their latest Mac Pro shows how price competitive it is with the rest of the industry.

Having built several clone boxes none of them from the case design, integrated motherboard design, controller design, heat transfer requirements, etc comes close to the Mac Pro. It doesn't include Hardware RAID out of the box. Big deal.

When the clone industry can produce cases in general that compete for structural integrity, motherboards with as few cables, easily maintanable cases that are easy to keep dust free then Apple might feel concerned about it's claim to having the most complete experience.

OS X has shortcomings in areas for Engineering (CAD/CAM, FEM, etc. All 3rd party concerns), Games (3rd party concerns, OpenGL 2 concerns that Apple will fix), Vertical Solution concerns (assuming Apple wants to attack the business sectors they will have to address this lack of productivity tools for Finance & Accounting within iWorks) and some other deficiencies.

They are covering their bases and growing their base, quarter by quarter.

When ROME is finally built are we all going to whine that you can save $50 here or there with a clone?

I expect no less.

Good points, some of which I don't disagree with. Yes, "Vista is a classic example of diluting your OS," but I'll still be surprised if it doesn't achieve record sales on release. Though Apple's userbase continues to grow (& rightly so!), the crunch time for Apple in sustaining this will surely come when the shops are full of competitively-priced, Vista-enabled PCs.

Licensing out OS X wouldn't necessarily mean compromising its security; the compromise would come in some of the non-Apple hardware OS X ran on. Much has changed since the days of the original Apple clones that proved to be an expensive failure. Today, technology generally is much less expensive. Customers would appreciate the kind of choice that, after all, hasn't done too much harm to sales of Windows PCs. (I'd probably still buy Apple, but some others may buy a cheaper Dell running OS X).

Granted that the Mac Pro is competitively priced, those recent comparisons with the more expensive Dell workstation overlook that the Mac Pro graphics (Geforce 7300 GT) cost approx $100; the Dell's Nvidia graphics are closer to $1,000. (A point for objectivity's sake).

Like most Mac owners, I believe Apple are still by far the best for overall quality & service (though I think they're currently lacking at least one more consumer-aimed computer). I'm just interested in any ideas that could further expand the OS X userbase, & sustain it long-term.

PS: ROME has already been built: M$. But that empire so overreached itself it now looks as if it's beginning to crumble.

limo
Aug 28, 2006, 10:35 AM
I have always had great support by Apple until my most recent incident. I needed a new LCD installed in a MacBook Pro. Their repair facility had my computer 20 days before the repair was completed. The CSR's kept telling me it should be ready in a day or two. Never an explanation why a part would take that long to get or anything. Just the same response every time.:mad:

Horst
Aug 28, 2006, 10:49 AM
Just my 0.02 regarding Apple's customer service :

I buy Apple computers in the hope never to need any support by the manufacturer. Two times I had issues ( broken hinge on TiBook, 1st. gen. ACD 23" with severe color tint ) and Apple wouldn't even acknowledge such a problem exists. Needless to say, those faults are well documented as inherent design flaws of the products mentioned.

That's Apple Germany, mind you - I would never even try to contact Apple US for possible issues with the computers I bought and use over there, as customer protection in the US is virtually non-existent.

I'm a professional user, and received exceptional online and phone support by other companies for 300$ products, but no service whatsoever for 20k+ of Apple products.
I know Apple is not catering to pros, but still ....

deniseeliza
Aug 29, 2006, 02:44 PM
I don't believe Apple would (or should) license out Mac OS X to run on non-Apple hardware. This is because Apple is a hardware company that uses Mac OS X to sell hardware. I wouldn't want it to be licensed out anyway, because then we would have to deal with registration key nightmares. Right now, there's nothing but your conscience and a license agreement you probably threw away keeping you from installing one copy of Mac OS X on every Mac you can get your hands on. Not that I do that, but I sure like just popping in my disk and reinstalling whenever it strikes my fancy.

On to the support issue, I think since the beginning of technical support there have always been those who complain that quality has really gone down and back in the good ol' days, you never had any problems, ever! And now, by golly, it's a coin toss whether you get a machine that even turns on!

Right, gramps, and back in your day, you walked to school uphill both ways in the snow with no boots and you liked it.

And 25% of new machines being lemons? Last quarter, Apple reported they shipped 1,327,000 computers. If we call a quarter 90 days, and assume that 25% of them are dead, that's more than 3,600 computers sold defective every single day. Are you kidding me? You really think a major hardware company would sell 3,600 defective computers every single day and get away with it?

This is what's really happening: Apple is selling more machines than ever. Apple's customers have greater access to the internet than ever. Even if the rate of failure stays the same, you have more customers with more internet savvy to come whine and moan on bulletin boards.

Yes, you deserve a perfectly functioning computer and you have the right to complain when your computer is broken. So call Apple or go down to your local service provider and get your machine serviced under warranty. That's what it's there for. It's also the number 1 best way to help Apple get clued in to potential issues with their products. They're not going to issue a recall because a bunch of bulletin board users complain to each other over and over again until they convince each other that there isn't a single MacBook Pro in the world that functions properly.

DeVizardofOZ
Aug 30, 2006, 06:14 AM
I don't believe Apple would (or should) license out Mac OS X to run on non-Apple hardware. This is because Apple is a hardware company that uses Mac OS X to sell hardware. I wouldn't want it to be licensed out anyway, because then we would have to deal with registration key nightmares. Right now, there's nothing but your conscience and a license agreement you probably threw away keeping you from installing one copy of Mac OS X on every Mac you can get your hands on. Not that I do that, but I sure like just popping in my disk and reinstalling whenever it strikes my fancy.

On to the support issue, I think since the beginning of technical support there have always been those who complain that quality has really gone down and back in the good ol' days, you never had any problems, ever! And now, by golly, it's a coin toss whether you get a machine that even turns on!

Right, gramps, and back in your day, you walked to school uphill both ways in the snow with no boots and you liked it.

And 25% of new machines being lemons? Last quarter, Apple reported they shipped 1,327,000 computers. If we call a quarter 90 days, and assume that 25% of them are dead, that's more than 3,600 computers sold defective every single day. Are you kidding me? You really think a major hardware company would sell 3,600 defective computers every single day and get away with it?

This is what's really happening: Apple is selling more machines than ever. Apple's customers have greater access to the internet than ever. Even if the rate of failure stays the same, you have more customers with more internet savvy to come whine and moan on bulletin boards.

Yes, you deserve a perfectly functioning computer and you have the right to complain when your computer is broken. So call Apple or go down to your local service provider and get your machine serviced under warranty. That's what it's there for. It's also the number 1 best way to help Apple get clued in to potential issues with their products. They're not going to issue a recall because a bunch of bulletin board users complain to each other over and over again until they convince each other that there isn't a single MacBook Pro in the world that functions properly.
_________________________________________________________________________

because, no matter what I hear around the board, all of you forgot to consider, that there must be a large number of faulty products WHICH DID NOT SLIP THROUGH THE SLOPPY CQ AT THE FACTORY. Therefore 20-25% lemons is indeed possible and much too high a percentage in any manufacturing process.

Best