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MacRumors
Aug 29, 2006, 08:52 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Think Secret claims (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0608macmini.html) to have information on the rumored revision (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060824183848.shtml) to the Mac Mini. According to the site, Apple will replace the existing Core Solo model with the existing 1.66 GHz Core Duo model, and add a 1.83 GHz Core Duo model, effectively eliminating all single-core CPUs from Apple's computer product line.

The new systems are said to be "ready for production." Think Secret believes the models will be introduced in a few weeks time with little fanfare, although not totally under the radar like the last Mac Mini update (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/09/20050930023909.shtml).

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 08:55 AM
Pretty much in line with what I expected... probably just a simple processor update, everything else about them will stay the same.

Machead III
Aug 29, 2006, 08:55 AM
A few weeks?!?!?/11!!1onehundred111!?

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 08:56 AM
No Merom? :( Mac mini and Mac Pro drifting even further apart now. Although TS have been quite unreliable lately so I'm going to wait for AppleInsider's take on it.

epicwelshman
Aug 29, 2006, 08:56 AM
I think it's ridiculous to not put a Core 2 Duo chip into the Mini. While I'm not waiting for Merom, to upgrade one of your machines with a faster version of the same soon-to-be-out-of-date chip is silly.

prady16
Aug 29, 2006, 08:58 AM
A "FEW" weeks!!!!!!!
That too for a Core Duo and not even a Core 2 Duo!

Thats disappointing!!!

And what about the MBP?

BenRoethig
Aug 29, 2006, 08:59 AM
Those speeds line up exactly with the T5000 series of Merom.

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 09:00 AM
I think it's ridiculous to not put a Core 2 Duo chip into the Mini. While I'm not waiting for Merom, to upgrade one of your machines with a faster version of the same soon-to-be-out-of-date chip is silly.

But this IS Apple were talking about lol. Anyway the article doesnt mention which 1.66/1.83 chips they will use. Probably Core Duo (Yonah) though. If that were the case, they could, but i'm sure they won't, cut the prices a little further now that Core 2 Duo is out.

cait-sith
Aug 29, 2006, 09:00 AM
The machine is due for an update in a month or so anyways. This is a pretty safe rumour.

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 09:01 AM
But this IS Apple were talking about lol. Anyway the article doesnt mention which 1.66/1.83 chips they will use.

It says Core Duo. If we were talking about Merom, it would be Core 2 Duo.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 09:02 AM
Incredibly underwhelming.

If they're going to stay yonah, at least bump the clock speed more than that.

The only upside to this is that it leaves a HUGE gap between the mini and Pro, could mean that apple really is planning a conroe minitower/pizzabox/mediacenter.

That, and the fact that ThinkSecret is NEVER right. EVER.

ImNoSuperMan
Aug 29, 2006, 09:02 AM
Mac mini not getting Meroms might also mean MB wont get Meroms any time soon too. Hopefully Apple will put Meroms in MBP only. So that I can sell my MB without much loss and buy a merom MBP:D

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 09:03 AM
It says Core Duo. If we were talking about Merom, it would be Core 2 Duo.

oops.. so it does, getting my cores mixed up :eek:

m-dogg
Aug 29, 2006, 09:03 AM
This is the lowest end machine Apple makes. Let's be realistic. This is a reasonable update for the base model. And it's probably being done in advance of a Core 2 Duo update to the iMac.

MrFrankly
Aug 29, 2006, 09:05 AM
I think it's ridiculous to not put a Core 2 Duo chip into the Mini. While I'm not waiting for Merom, to upgrade one of your machines with a faster version of the same soon-to-be-out-of-date chip is silly.

I think Apple is more concerned with price for the Mac Mini than speed. Make them just a little bit faster than they are now, but much cheaper.

They're too expensive in the line-up now, with merom they would stay the same price but with Yonah they can make them cheaper again.

iHotu
Aug 29, 2006, 09:05 AM
Hope they bring back the $499 price point, Merom or not

Scarlet Fever
Aug 29, 2006, 09:06 AM
wheres my media edition mac mini...

seriously i would be stoked if they released an ULV Mac Mini with a 100GB HDD for all your audio and video needs. Ability to plug a 30" ACD would be nice, as 23" isn't that big for a TV. Built-in eyeTV equivalent, better remote... i want one!

Small White Car
Aug 29, 2006, 09:06 AM
Why is everyone so hung up on Merom?

I never expected the mini to go that way this year. Remember, the entire point of the mini is to be LOW COST.

The switch to Intel caused the price of the mini to jump $100. I would much rather see its processor lag behind a little bit if they can get that price back to $499.

Same thing with the Macbook, I'd rather see a $999 Macbook with the current chips than a $1,099 Macbook that keeps up with the Macbook Pro's chips.

Of course, there's nothing saying Apple will lower the prices but IF they do then I would be very happy to see the "old" Intel chips stay in those machines another 6 months. The first core chips are still VERY fast chips, it's the rest of the system (video card) that's holding things up now. I wonder how much extra benefit you'd even get from a Merom chip in a mini.

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 09:08 AM
Does anyone know how much the Core Duo chips will be now that we have Core 2 Duo. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Intel were reducing the prices again. If thats th case, i'd be a bit disappointed to see the Mini stay the same price.

BenRoethig
Aug 29, 2006, 09:08 AM
This is the lowest end machine Apple makes. Let's be realistic. This is a reasonable update for the base model. And it's probably being done in advance of a Core 2 Duo update to the iMac.

Yonah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Merom is pin-compatible and costs exactly the same amount. Besides, it would be a PR boost for Apple to have the entire lineup 64-bit and "Leopard ready". The Mac Mini is going to use the 5000 series Meroms and the iMac is going to use the 7000s.

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 09:09 AM
Same thing with the Macbook, I'd rather see a $999 Macbook with the current chips than a $1,099 Macbook that keeps up with the Macbook Pro's chips.



HP have $800 laptops with Core 2 Duo though....

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 09:11 AM
Why is everyone so hung up on Merom?

I never expected the mini to go that way this year. Remember, the entire point of the mini is to be LOW COST.

The switch to Intel caused the price of the mini to jump $100. I would much rather see its processor lag behind a little bit if they can get that price back to $499.

Same thing with the Macbook, I'd rather see a $999 Macbook with the current chips than a $1,099 Macbook that keeps up with the Macbook Pro's chips.

Of course, there's nothing saying Apple will lower the prices but IF they do then I would be very happy to see the "old" Intel chips stay in those machines another 6 months. The first core chips are still VERY fast chips, it's the rest of the system (video card) that's holding things up now. I wonder how much extra benefit you'd even get from a Merom chip in a mini.

To cut the price of the Mini by $100, Apple better hope Intel are doing a "Half Price" cut which is extremely unlikely. How much would it hurt Apple to just double the height of the Mini and put a 1.83 GHz Conroe (Allendale) in there and a 3.5" Hard Drive? I'm pretty sure no-one would be whining about that. It would also get the price back down to $499 easy!

Small White Car
Aug 29, 2006, 09:14 AM
Merom is pin-compatible and costs exactly the same amount.

And you think they're going to still cost the same next month? When something faster comes out the slower thing has to get cheaper or Intel will suddenly find that no one is buying them.

Besides, it would be a PR boost for Apple to have the entire lineup 64-bit and "Leopard ready".

In an ambigious "64 sounds better than 32" kind of meaningless way. Can you think of any 64-bit-advantages that Mac mini owners could actually take advantage of?

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 09:14 AM
No Merom? :( Mac mini and Mac Pro drifting even further apart now.

Yeah, imagine that. Their top-of-the-line 64bit full-tower quad-core workstation and their bottom-of-the-barrel consumer-model have wildly different specs!

As to putting Merom in there... Yep, in a way, it would make sense. But I bet that Intel is unloading their Core Duo's to Apple for rock-bottom prices to be used in the Mini (and maybe MacBook).

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 09:15 AM
This is the lowest end machine Apple makes. Let's be realistic. This is a reasonable update for the base model. And it's probably being done in advance of a Core 2 Duo update to the iMac.

Compared to similarly priced PC's, $799 for a yonah duo 1.8 is pretty weak.

To be honest, I'd rather see the cheaper model drop in price (if not both) than a speed bump.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 09:16 AM
Yeah, imagine that. Their top-of-the-like 64bit full-tower quad-core workstation and their bottom-of-the-barrel consumer-model have wildly different specs!

Which would be fine...if there were a model in the middle. It's like a car company selling a huge SUV and a tiny two door car, with nothing in between.

Small White Car
Aug 29, 2006, 09:17 AM
How much would it hurt Apple to just double the height of the Mini and put a 1.83 GHz Conroe (Allendale) in there and a 3.5" Hard Drive? I'm pretty sure no-one would be whining about that. It would also get the price back down to $499 easy!

Oh, yeah, of course that is MY fantasy too. I'd love for them to beef up the mini at a cost of size only. I'd be the first to buy one of those.

I'm afraid, however, that Apple was very successful at convincing people that the mini is not at all like the old cube Mac. That was good since it had the reputation of being overpriced, but it also means that I can't see Apple making the mini any bigger. To do so would make it look like they were headed back that way. Even if the price got lower it would be an image they didn't want to encourage.

reflex
Aug 29, 2006, 09:20 AM
Yonah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Merom is pin-compatible and costs exactly the same amount. Besides, it would be a PR boost for Apple to have the entire lineup 64-bit and "Leopard ready".

They can still update the mini in February or March to be "Leopard ready".

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 09:20 AM
Compared to similarly priced PC's, $799 for a yonah duo 1.8 is pretty weak.

To be honest, I'd rather see the cheaper model drop in price (if not both) than a speed bump.

Since we don't know the prices yet, my suggestion is that we don't touch the "jump to conclusions mat" just yet.

My take on this is that it's a great update! The performance of the base-model is more than doubled when you really think about it! Bring on the updates!

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 09:21 AM
Which would be fine...if there were a model in the middle. It's like a car company selling a huge SUV and a tiny two door car, with nothing in between.

Oh believe me, I agree with you 100% percent! I would LOVE to see "Mac pro Mini" from Apple.

BeefUK
Aug 29, 2006, 09:23 AM
Why is everyone so hung up on Merom?

I never expected the mini to go that way this year. Remember, the entire point of the mini is to be LOW COST.

The switch to Intel caused the price of the mini to jump $100. I would much rather see its processor lag behind a little bit if they can get that price back to $499.

Same thing with the Macbook, I'd rather see a $999 Macbook with the current chips than a $1,099 Macbook that keeps up with the Macbook Pro's chips.

Of course, there's nothing saying Apple will lower the prices but IF they do then I would be very happy to see the "old" Intel chips stay in those machines another 6 months. The first core chips are still VERY fast chips, it's the rest of the system (video card) that's holding things up now. I wonder how much extra benefit you'd even get from a Merom chip in a mini.

I agree, if the mac mini is dropped in price but keeps the Core Duo, I think that is a logical step. I think one of the original ideas of the mini was to tempt switchers, who already have a PC, but want to try a mac for cheap. I was nearly tempted last year, but held off for the Intel Update, and then decided I wanted a laptop instead.

However if they keep prices the same, then that seems a strange decision.

I have to say though I hope u are wrong with regard to the Macbooks, i'm hoping for a Core 2 Duo update so I can purchase my first mac. Maybe if they don't i'll just save up some more money and buy and Core 2 Duo MBP when they're released!!

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 09:24 AM
Since we don't know the prices yet, my suggestion is that we don't touch the "jump to conclusions mat" just yet.

My take on this is that it's a great update! The performance of the base-model is more than doubled when you really think about it! Bring on the updates!

Most benchmarks show the difference between the 1.5 Ghz Solo and 1.66 Ghz Duo to be about 15% for single-core apps (games) and about 30% for dual-core aware apps. So not really more than 100% more performance.

iMikeT
Aug 29, 2006, 09:25 AM
If the GPU is upgraded, I'll definitely get one.

AidenShaw
Aug 29, 2006, 09:26 AM
wheres my media edition mac mini...

seriously i would be stoked if they released an ULV Mac Mini with a 100GB HDD for all your audio and video needs. Ability to plug a 30" ACD would be nice, as 23" isn't that big for a TV. Built-in eyeTV equivalent, better remote... i want one!
Wait for the Apple HTPC - the upcoming Conroe mini-tower/pizza-box.

In the meantime, here's a Conroe HTPC that's now available:

http://www.okoromedia.com/workpics/xserBsm.jpg

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/09/okoro-media-systems-now-shipping-core-2-duo-based-systems/
http://www.okoromedia.com/model.asp?model=GX300

daneoni
Aug 29, 2006, 09:26 AM
Very predictable. Just release the darn thing already!

amac4me
Aug 29, 2006, 09:26 AM
Without the Core 2 Duo, this would be a dissapointment.:mad:

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 09:27 AM
Most benchmarks show the difference between the 1.5 Ghz Solo and 1.66 Ghz Duo to be about 15% for single-core apps (games) and about 30% for dual-core aware apps. So not really more than 100% more performance.

And if you run several apps at once (like most of us do), the increase is quite big indeed. And dual-core/SMP makes the system feel smoother, because no app can consume 100% of CPU-cycles.

Why are people always talking about speed of a single app? How about running several apps at once?

Small White Car
Aug 29, 2006, 09:27 AM
I have to say though I hope u are wrong with regard to the Macbooks, i'm hoping for a Core 2 Duo update so I can purchase my first mac. Maybe if they don't i'll just save up some more money and buy and Core 2 Duo MBP when they're released!!

I hate to tell you this, but your "i'll just save up some more money" statement is probably the main reason Apple WON'T put Core 2 in the Macbooks!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love core 2 chips in EVERY Mac that's using Yonah now. That would be totally fantastic.

But I'm not trying to say what I WANT...I'm trying to figure out what I think Apple will DO.

Those are usually not the same thing with ANY company.

jholzner
Aug 29, 2006, 09:27 AM
Yonah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Merom is pin-compatible and costs exactly the same amount. Besides, it would be a PR boost for Apple to have the entire lineup 64-bit and "Leopard ready". The Mac Mini is going to use the 5000 series Meroms and the iMac is going to use the 7000s.

Merom doesn't cost the same as Yonah! Merom costs the same now as Yonah did WHEN IT WAS RELEASED. Since then the cost has gone down and is supposed to dip lower in the coming weeks. Apple could use Yonah in the Mini and lower the price to where it used to stand.

epicwelshman
Aug 29, 2006, 09:27 AM
I think Apple is more concerned with price for the Mac Mini than speed. Make them just a little bit faster than they are now, but much cheaper.

They're too expensive in the line-up now, with merom they would stay the same price but with Yonah they can make them cheaper again.


Oh I know. As it stands now, the base Mac Mini in Canada, even with the edu discount is almost $700 (CDN) which is ridiculous when you can get full fledged PC laptops for less than that. I know it's a Apple, and it's a Mac so you expect higher prices, but still...

emotion
Aug 29, 2006, 09:29 AM
The Mac Mini is going to use the 5000 series Meroms and the iMac is going to use the 7000s.

I bet this is the case too. 2MB cache instead of the higher end 4MB cache in the 7000s.

I find it hard to believe they will stick with Yonahs.

I'd also like to see a drop in price, so I guess if they do stick with Yonah then a drop might happen.

daneoni
Aug 29, 2006, 09:31 AM
I think people should just stop dreaming about the discrete graphics thing. Its just not going to happen. Look forward to the GMA 965 and the X300 or was it X3000 down the road. Same thing for the MacBooks

Queso
Aug 29, 2006, 09:33 AM
No to Merom in the mini. Core Duo in both models and a significant price drop. They are supposed to be low end machines, so give them a low end price point.

surroundfan
Aug 29, 2006, 09:40 AM
Provided they move the current Core Duo model down to the $US599 price point with the specs intact, I'll be happy.

My main concerns are to ditch the Core Solo and to lose the combo drive (a bit too 2002 when the rest of the world is offering DVD burners in everything but their $US299 base models). An 80GB HDD (rather than 60GB) to compete with all these cheapies would also be nice.

kev0476
Aug 29, 2006, 09:44 AM
i think the main thing instead of saying apple is a full 64-bit company is to say they are a full dual-core company, which if they put in meron, one will have to still be single core. dual core yonah or single core meron? (in the base machine)

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 09:45 AM
My take on this is that it's a great update! The performance of the base-model is more than doubled when you really think about it! Bring on the updates!

It's not so bad on the low end, but that's a pretty piddly update for the pricier model, especially when you consider what the competition is using. The only way it would be forgivable would be if they had a pretty sizable price drop on the high end.

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 09:45 AM
Merom doesn't cost the same as Yonah! Merom costs the same now as Yonah did WHEN IT WAS RELEASED. Since then the cost has gone down and is supposed to dip lower in the coming weeks. Apple could use Yonah in the Mini and lower the price to where it used to stand.

Nonono, Merom costs the same as Yonah's June price points which are still here even with Merom out in the wild.

shawnce
Aug 29, 2006, 09:45 AM
Assuming the rumor is correct (really the core duo is just fine for such a machine at this point in time)... it may allow Apple to drop prices on the mini which not only makes it available to more potential switchers but makes a little more room in their product line up for a mini tower.

A mini tower in the 1000-1600 dollar range would allow us to buy Macs for developers (as a second system often) and QA folks since they can run Windows, Linux and Mac OS X natively. It would allow the maximum flexibility to our teams and at a price point that matches with the Dell crap desktops systems we currently purchase.

We would still of course purchase Mac Pros for the developers that need them the most (as a primary system) but a mini tower would easily double or triple what we would purchase.

The Mac mini does work in the space but it is just a little underpowered on the IO and expansion front to be fully useful as a secondary developer system.

BenRoethig
Aug 29, 2006, 09:51 AM
They can still update the mini in February or March to be "Leopard ready".

Do you seriously want the Apple is behind/outdated mindset to sink in again?

extraextra
Aug 29, 2006, 09:52 AM
i think the main thing instead of saying apple is a full 64-bit company is to say they are a full dual-core company, which if they put in meron, one will have to still be single core. dual core yonah or single core meron? (in the base machine)

Fully dual-core doesn't sound particularly impressive, and I think other companies can claim that they are fully dual-core as well.

It's Merom, by the way.

I'd rather them put the Yonah in and lower the price.

Ashtangi
Aug 29, 2006, 09:52 AM
As a few have already mentioned - there would have to be some price adjustments. Right now, the Core Duo commands a $200 premium over the Core Solo. But assuming that the "new" lineup consists of a 1.66 and 1.83 Core Duo, Apple would either have to seriously adjust the price points - or majorly strip down the 1.66 Core Duo. Perhaps remove the combo drive? Or use the smaller HD?

joeboy_45101
Aug 29, 2006, 10:02 AM
Apple upgrading the Mini with Yonah processors makes the most sense. The Mini is all about being affordable; I hate it when people use the word cheap, cheap is the crap you buy at Wal-Mart the mini is not cheap. We probably won't see a Core 2 Mini until 2007, but that just fine for me because that's when the Intel GMA X3000 will be ready. Coupling a Core 2 Duo processor with a GMA X3000 will give the Mini a lot of punch.

This is how I predict the product lines will look by the end of the year:

Yonah --> Mac Mini & MacBook
Merom --> MacBook Pro
Conroe --> iMac
Xeon --> Mac Pro & Xserve

BenRoethig
Aug 29, 2006, 10:04 AM
If the MacBook and Mini stay with core 1 CPUs, sales will grind to a halt.

twoodcc
Aug 29, 2006, 10:06 AM
well at least they are upgrading them. but i agree, the mini needs merom

ImAlwaysRight
Aug 29, 2006, 10:06 AM
... with Yonah they can make them cheaper again.Good observation. Would be nice to see the price point on the Mini come back down to starting at $499.

Why is everyone so hung up on Merom?
Perhaps they were daydreaming during economics class. :rolleyes:

READ MY LIPS: Merom will not appear in the MacBook or Mini during 2006.

Chundles
Aug 29, 2006, 10:07 AM
If the MacBook and Mini stay with core 1 CPUs, sales will grind to a halt.

What a load of bollocks. Core 2 will ship in Macs when it's ready. No point announcing now but with a wait time of 6 weeks or so - now that will bring sales to a halt.

joeboy_45101
Aug 29, 2006, 10:12 AM
We probably won't see a Core 2 Mini until 2007, but that just fine for me because that's when the Intel GMA X3000 will be ready.


UPDATE:

It looks like the GMA X3000 is ready to go now, but a Yonah coupled with a X3000 IGP would still make the Mini a great machine.

twoodcc
Aug 29, 2006, 10:15 AM
UPDATE:

It looks like the GMA X3000 is ready to go now, but a Yonah coupled with a X3000 IGP would still make the Mini a great machine.

wow, now that would be something

baxterbrittle
Aug 29, 2006, 10:16 AM
Good observation. Would be nice to see the price point on the Mini come back down to starting at $499.


Perhaps they were daydreaming during economics class. :rolleyes:

READ MY LIPS: Merom will not appear in the MacBook or Mini during 2006.

That's the same line of thought prior to the MacBook release - everyone thought they would run core solo's in the base model. The Mini could be Merom but like most here I think it will have a Yonah and hopefully go back to the $499 US price point. Personally I'm hoping they will do a MacPro and only have one model with various processor optical drive configs. Say a 1.66GHz Core Duo 512MB RAM 80GB HDD Combo BT AP etc. Then optional 1.83/2.0 Yonah 100/120GB HDD Superdrive etc. That's just me though.

retroneo
Aug 29, 2006, 10:17 AM
UPDATE:

It looks like the GMA X3000 is ready to go now

GMA X3000 is ready in the soon to ship G965 for Conroe desktops, but the mobile GM965 "Santa Rosa" for Merom isn't due until March 2007. GM965 also features "Robson" flash technology. New Meroms also arrive in March with the same clock speed but 800MHz system bus.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 10:19 AM
If the MacBook and Mini stay with core 1 CPUs, sales will grind to a halt.

Only if they don't drop prices. Just depends what they charge, if they had core solo for $399 sales would go through the roof.

Multimedia
Aug 29, 2006, 10:25 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Think Secret claims (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0608macmini.html) to have information on the rumored revision (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060824183848.shtml) to the Mac Mini. According to the site, Apple will replace the existing Core Solo model with the existing 1.66 GHz Core Duo model, and add a 1.83 GHz Core Duo model, effectively eliminating all single-core CPUs from Apple's computer product line.

The new systems are said to be "ready for production." Think Secret believes the models will be introduced in a few weeks time with little fanfare, although not totally under the radar like the last Mac Mini update (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/09/20050930023909.shtml).Not Core 2 Duo??!! :eek: :confused: :( I can't beleive they are not going to go Core 2 Duo in the mini before Thanksgiving.Only if they don't drop prices. Just depends what they charge, if they had core solo for $399 sales would go through the roof.And Apple would be losing money with every sale. :rolleyes:

And for all you Yonah FanBoys out there I say you are completely out of touch with reality living in some sort of parallel dimension where old obsolete stopgap technology prevails beyond it's short useful lifespan. :) It makes no sense to me why would a laptop be more powerful than a desktop. If you're gonna stay with core duo why not just make the mini a 1.83 & 2.00 GHz Core Duo machine like the macbooks. 1.66 & 1.83 on a core duo is pathetic in my opinions and solidifies my believe that the mini and i will never get along....at least for now. Thats just too much crippling to handle.Here here. I totally agree. Staying with Core Duo is insane, rude and greedy.

MS bulldog
Aug 29, 2006, 10:27 AM
Only if they don't drop prices. Just depends what they charge, if they had core solo for $399 sales would go through the roof.

hopefully that will be the price for future refurbs

daneoni
Aug 29, 2006, 10:33 AM
If you're gonna stay with core duo why not just make the mini a 1.83 & 2.00 GHz Core Duo machine like the macbooks since the iMacs are going Conroe. 1.66 & 1.83 on a core duo is pathetic in my opinion and solidifies my believe that the mini and i will never get along....at least for now. Thats just oo much crippling to handle

1984
Aug 29, 2006, 10:35 AM
Since they are pin compatible why not use a Core Duo in the entry-level model to get the price down to $499 and use Core 2 Duo in the remaining models? Let's keep in mind this is being reported by ThinkSecret which is about as reliable as MacOSRumors or O'Grady's PowerPage these days. When Appleinsider reports on it I'll start to worry.

miloblithe
Aug 29, 2006, 10:36 AM
That's the same line of thought prior to the MacBook release - everyone thought they would run core solo's in the base model. The Mini could be Merom but like most here I think it will have a Yonah and hopefully go back to the $499 US price point. Personally I'm hoping they will do a MacPro and only have one model with various processor optical drive configs. Say a 1.66GHz Core Duo 512MB RAM 80GB HDD Combo BT AP etc. Then optional 1.83/2.0 Yonah 100/120GB HDD Superdrive etc. That's just me though.

That would be interesting if Apple does go to a more BTO strategy rather than the good, better, best strategy. But I imagine BTO makes the most sense for pros, who know what they want, and good, better, best makes sense for consumers who don't necessarily understand, for instance, the difference between RAM and HD space.

lizard79
Aug 29, 2006, 10:36 AM
Hope they bring back the $499 price point, Merom or not

I'm totally with you..
The minis are currently to expensive - imho..

Stridder44
Aug 29, 2006, 10:40 AM
...We probably won't see a Core 2 Mini until 2007, but that just fine for me because that's when the Intel GMA X3000 will be ready. Coupling a Core 2 Duo processor with a GMA X3000 will give the Mini a lot of punch.


Wow I'v heard about the GMA 965 or whatnot, and that seemed like a pretty awesome upgrade, but this is the first I've heard of GMA X3000. Are there any details on this?

UPDATE:

It looks like the GMA X3000 is ready to go now, but a Yonah coupled with a X3000 IGP would still make the Mini a great machine.

If you're right I'll marry you.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 2006, 10:44 AM
I don't care about a measly speedbump. Begin to produce the media center already! How hard can it be? Just slap in a TV-card and beef up frontrow. done.
ok, slightly over simplified... But I dont see why Apple procrastinate on this matter. They would sell a bundle by releasing an Apple "media center".

Stridder44
Aug 29, 2006, 10:47 AM
I don't care about a measly speedbump. Begin to produce the media center already! How hard can it be? Just slap in a TV-card and beef up frontrow. done.
ok, slightly over simplified... But I dont see why Apple procrastinate on this matter. They would sell a bundle by releasing an Apple "media center".

Maybe FrontRow 2 (I believe/assume comes with Leopard) is where this will play in. Maybe instead of making a single device and labeling it a media center Apple will allow for any Mac (any new Mac...) to be used as a media center via FrontRow 2.

MikeDTyke
Aug 29, 2006, 10:49 AM
Wow I'v heard about the GMA 965 or whatnot, and that seemed like a pretty awesome upgrade, but this is the first I've heard of GMA X3000. Are there any details on this?



If you're right I'll marry you.

X3000 is the integrated graphics component of GMA965. It basically solves the problem of the GMA950 graphics having no hardware T&L. Hence why UT2004 scores sit in the toilet on Mac mini's and Macbooks.

It'll never challenge a midrange Nvidia or ATI card, but it'll make the mini and macbook a reasonable enry level gaming platform, which it ain't now.

See http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/G965/index.htm
for some juicy technobabble.

M.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 10:49 AM
And Apple would be losing money with every sale.


Don't roll your eyes at me! I didn't say that they *would* do that, my point is merely that you can't make a blanket statement that yonah machines wouldn't sell. While companies like dell are announcing merom machines, they haven't stopped selling yonah, have they?

And how does pointing out that yonah will likely end up costing apple less than merom make you a "yonah fanboy"?

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 2006, 10:59 AM
Maybe FrontRow 2 (I believe/assume comes with Leopard) is where this will play in. Maybe instead of making a single device and labeling it a media center Apple will allow for any Mac (any new Mac...) to be used as a media center via FrontRow 2.
I really hope you are correct about FR2 in Leopard. However...
I do think you need a TV-card in the computer too. Given Apples philosophy about simplicity, I doubt they will have a stand alone TV-reciever. Furthermore, I just can't see Apple selling MP with a TV-card. So my guess is that they will make a dedicated computer. Still I am most likely wrong... as always...:p

guez
Aug 29, 2006, 11:04 AM
This is exactly what I predicted would happen when Apple went Intel. Now that Macs can be compared component for component with Wintel machines and new hardware is coming out every month, everyone is worked up about keeping up with latest thing at the best possible price and getting increasingly frustrated with Apple's unwillingness to create a product line with 10000 different machines that each compete with dollar for dollar and component for component with every other machine on the market. Meanwhile, we have people talking about $299 machines with DVD burners (AND Windows? I'd like to see THAT!).

If you're so concerned about keeping up with the Jones, just buy a Dell, already.

mrgreen4242
Aug 29, 2006, 11:08 AM
IF they go to a 1.66ghz Core Duo, 512mb RAM, GMA950, 80gb 5400rpm HD, SD, AE, and BT model for $599 I'll get one immediately. That's a great price and would make an affordable upgrade from my current mini (assuming I could get at least, say, $350 for it which is fairly reasonable I think).

I'd probably be OK if they went with a 60gb HDD, but the SD is non-negotiable. I think the current high end mini is a perfectly acceptable machine for 90% of the people in the world, even those who want to play SOME games (the GMA950 outpaces the 9200 in the PPC minis in most things, especially in Windows).

Ideally, though, I agree that the mini needs to get back to a $499 and $599 (or $699 if the specs warrent it) price point. If they update the speed and keep the price the same this update, they need to have a mid cycle price drop to $499 and $699, followed by a move to Memrom and the x3000/Santa Rosa platform (at the same prices).

EDIT: Now that I think about it, even if they don't make those specs at that price, the refurbs are already $699, so there's a good chance they will drop to $599 after a refresh, which works just as well for me... guess I'm getting a new computer next month! (WooWoo for 3 pay period months ;))

brepublican
Aug 29, 2006, 11:09 AM
If the MacBook and Mini stay with core 1 CPUs, sales will grind to a halt.
True. This alleged upgrade is not enough to make me wanna go for a mini. I'm waiting for Meroms in the iMacs before I even begin to think about upgrading

jcricket
Aug 29, 2006, 11:14 AM
I really hope you are correct about FR2 in Leopard. However...
I do think you need a TV-card in the computer too. Given Apples philosophy about simplicity, I doubt they will have a stand alone TV-reciever. Furthermore, I just can't see Apple selling MP with a TV-card. So my guess is that they will make a dedicated computer. Still I am most likely wrong... as always...:p
My dream mini has a HD-DVD player, HDMI/DVI out, optical audio out (mainly important for those that want to connect to a surround sound receiver) and add some Netflix-like movie download subscription service added to iTunes. Put those together with space for a 3.5" hard drive and run Front Row 2.0 and I'd be psyched.

I really want the Mac Mini to be a basic TV hub device. It doesn't have to have a DVR, cable card slots or TV tuners built-in. Sure, if Apple could build an all-in-one box that's better than my HR10-250 (HD Tivo for DirecTV) or the upcoming Series 3 from Tivo that would be great. But for now I'd be happy with one box for TV watching (HR10-250) and one box for everything else (DVDs, music, movie downloading, casual web surfing).

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 11:16 AM
Nonono, Merom costs the same as Yonah's June price
points which are still here even with Merom out in the wild.

intel will sell yonahs for quite some time besides merom. why sell them when merom is better? answer: because they will sell them for lower price

atad6
Aug 29, 2006, 11:16 AM
This is exactly what I predicted would happen when Apple went Intel. Now that Macs can be compared component for component with Wintel machines and new hardware is coming out every month, everyone is worked up about keeping up with latest thing at the best possible price and getting increasingly frustrated with Apple's unwillingness to create a product line with 10000 different machines that each compete with dollar for dollar and component for component with every other machine on the market. Meanwhile, we have people talking about $299 machines with DVD burners (AND Windows? I'd like to see THAT!).

If you're so concerned about keeping up with the Jones, just buy a Dell, already.

I find this amusing as well, all these complaints about how apple is too slow, has outdated hardware, etc etc. Now suddenly that apple's have comparable hardware suddenly they have to follow the same upgrade path as the rest of pc manufactures so they're not obsolete. Remember the g4 powerbooks? They were not only completely underpowered compared to its pc counterparts but also still ridiculously overpriced for what they were performance wise. That can be seen considering the current macbook pros have been proven to be 5x faster in some areas. Now that merom is coming out with a marginal (compared to the g4 to intel transition) 10-15% performance increase many people are complaining that the current yonah processors are just too slow. I just find this amusing considering people bought the underpowered overpriced powerbooks for so long. Apple just has a different business model, whether it is always executed properly is up for debate. They just have different priorities. Who knows when apple will put out the next revision of macbooks but if you're worring about it from a performance perspective you should probably consider buying a pc.

EDIT:
Of course I could be completely wrong and with the whole intel transition apple could put out rapid upgrades to its lines just like the rest of the pc world. I was just going with history, just because apple uses intel chips doesn't mean they'll adopt them like the other companies.

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 11:21 AM
Apple's laptop sales have soared in the last 12 months or so, while desktop sales have seen quite a drop. A price cut to the Mini might go some way to rectifying that problem.

roland.g
Aug 29, 2006, 11:29 AM
IF they go to a 1.66ghz Core Duo, 512mb RAM, GMA950, 80gb 5400rpm HD, SD, AE, and BT model for $599 I'll get one immediately.

You can update the Core Solo to a SD for $50. They won't give a SD to the low end stock. But $50 upgrade isn't bad.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 2006, 11:31 AM
My dream mini has a HD-DVD player, HDMI/DVI out, optical audio out (mainly important for those that want to connect to a surround sound receiver) and add some Netflix-like movie download subscription service added to iTunes. Put those together with space for a 3.5" hard drive and run Front Row 2.0 and I'd be psyched.

I really want the Mac Mini to be a basic TV hub device. It doesn't have to have a DVR, cable card slots or TV tuners built-in. Sure, if Apple could build an all-in-one box that's better than my HR10-250 (HD Tivo for DirecTV) or the upcoming Series 3 from Tivo that would be great. But for now I'd be happy with one box for TV watching (HR10-250) and one box for everything else (DVDs, music, movie downloading, casual web surfing).
I would like to see a "media center" with a basic built-in TV-tuner so I could use it as a TIVO. It cant be that hard to add a TV-tuner...

TangoCharlie
Aug 29, 2006, 11:33 AM
Yonah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Merom is pin-compatible and costs exactly the same amount. Besides, it would be a PR boost for Apple to have the entire lineup 64-bit and "Leopard ready". The Mac Mini is going to use the 5000 series Meroms and the iMac is going to use the 7000s.
Yonah makes perfect sense in the Mac mini.
Apple is hardly going to upgrade the Mac mini to Merom before the MBP and/or the iMac. Apple can upgrade the Mac mini line to Core Duo 1.66 and 1.83 GHz _and_ benefit from improved margins as the price of Yonah based chips drop.
Apple _will_ update the Mac mini to Core 2 Duo, but not yet.

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 11:40 AM
people, we need a reality-check here! all this talk of sales grinding to a halt is complete bs. what does merom have that yonah doesn't? it has 5-20% better performance clock-for-clock and it's 64bit. that's it, in the end. are those really such features that not having those would doom the mini? no they are not! mini is about being cheap. and using yonah is a good way of doing just that. if you want more performance, apple has other products for you.

what would i like to see? lower price (maybe -100 across the board) and maybe dvd-burner on all models. add to that a new cpu, and you are all set.

posting from my nokia 770, so no caps

kyeblue
Aug 29, 2006, 11:41 AM
Incredibly underwhelming.

If they're going to stay yonah, at least bump the clock speed more than that.

The only upside to this is that it leaves a HUGE gap between the mini and Pro, could mean that apple really is planning a conroe minitower/pizzabox/mediacenter.

That, and the fact that ThinkSecret is NEVER right. EVER.

This is exactly what I am crying for. A headless mac between pro and mini that i can hook it to my HDTV. Not because mac pro is too expensive, it doesn't look nice in my living room.

Will not be surprised if mini also gets a price cut to $499 and $599. I am happy with G4.

BenRoethig
Aug 29, 2006, 11:45 AM
I would like to see a "media center" with a basic built-in TV-tuner so I could use it as a TIVO. It cant be that hard to add a TV-tuner...

I'm thinking something similar. 3.5x8.5x8.5. Basically a larger MacMini with a 3.5" hard drive, dedicated graphics, and video chipset similar to the Miglia TV Max.

legacyb4
Aug 29, 2006, 11:49 AM
Agreed. They need to get that bottom end of the price range covered so that there are options for everyone including students.

I think Apple is more concerned with price for the Mac Mini than speed. Make them just a little bit faster than they are now, but much cheaper.

They're too expensive in the line-up now, with merom they would stay the same price but with Yonah they can make them cheaper again.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 11:50 AM
Apple's laptop sales have soared in the last 12 months or so, while desktop sales have seen quite a drop. A price cut to the Mini might go some way to rectifying that problem.

I assume that was *before* the mac pro shipped? I'd expect dropping sales before that, but you're not saying they've continued to drop after the Pro release? And are you including iMacs as part of desktop machines?

MacSA
Aug 29, 2006, 11:55 AM
I assume that was *before* the mac pro shipped? I'd expect dropping sales before that, but you're not saying they've continued to drop after the Pro release? And are you including iMacs as part of desktop machines?


ALL desktop machines......

Apple posted their 3rd Quarter 2006 financial results today.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060719164004.shtml

Apple posted revenue of $4.37 billion and a net quarterly profit of $472 million or $.54 per diluted share. For reference, the year-ago quarter brought in $3.53 billion in revenue, net profit of $320 million or $.37 per diluted share.

Analysts expected Apple to earn 44 cents per share, on average, within a range of 40 cents to 49 cents, on revenue of $3.68 billion, according to Reuters Estimates.

Apple shipped 1,327,000 Macintosh computers and 8,111,000 iPods during this quarter which represents a 12% growth in Macs and 32% growth in iPods year-over-year.

- 75% of Macs sold during the quarter used Intel processors.
- 2nd highest quarterly sales and earnings in Apple's history
- International sales accounted for 39 percent of the quarter’s revenue.
- iPod continued to earn a US market share of over 75 percent
- Desktops: 529,000, down 14% from previous quarter
- Portables: 798,000, up 60% from previous quarter
- iPods: 8,526,000

Multimedia
Aug 29, 2006, 12:05 PM
I know this is off topic. But you guys and gals have got to go download the new Bob Dylan Blues Music Video Ad for iTunes pre-selling his new album "Modern Times" (http://www.apple.com/ipod/ads/dylan/). It is incredible! :eek: :cool:

I think this is the best Ad Apple has ever delivered - bar none. I put it on single repeat in iTunes and it never gets old.

mrgreen4242
Aug 29, 2006, 12:21 PM
I know this is off topic. But you guys and gals have got to go download the new Bob Dylan Blues Music Video Ad for iTunes pre-selling his new album "Modern Times" (http://www.apple.com/ipod/ads/dylan/). It is incredible! :eek: :cool:

Ya, that is off topic. WAY off topic. Why would you post that here? There's already threads started about this. Bah.

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 12:25 PM
I know this is off topic...

yes it is, and you already entioned it another discussion. and there is aready a dedicated discussion about it. so why spam this thread?

Multimedia
Aug 29, 2006, 12:26 PM
Ya, that is off topic. WAY off topic. Why would you post that here? There's already threads started about this. Bah.
Enthusiasm. Haven't seen a thread about this new Bob Dylan Ad yet - only the ones by the fat & skinny guys.yes it is, and you already entioned it another discussion. and there is aready a dedicated discussion about it. so why spam this thread?You think my post is spam? :confused:

I'm sorry. I overlooked the new Dylan Thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=228809). Please forgive my enthusiasm.

1984
Aug 29, 2006, 12:30 PM
World Class CLIO Material? It's just another iPod/iTunes ad.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 12:31 PM
ALL desktop machines......

Apple posted their 3rd Quarter 2006 financial results today.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/07/20060719164004.shtml


That was before the Pro shipped, it's a safe bet since it's released desktop numbers have gone up. And that's just one quarter, I doubt desktop numbers have been on the decline for the last twelve months.

Unspeaked
Aug 29, 2006, 12:34 PM
If the MacBook and Mini stay with core 1 CPUs, sales will grind to a halt.


I don't understand the people who say stuff like this, and HAVE been saying stuff like this for months.

Look - most of the people who buy MacBooks and Minis don't even know what type of CPU they have.

The obsessive 5% of Mac users that live their lives on MacRumors (which, admittedly, I'm a part of) will put off a purchase for months waiting for their dream processor to show up in a Stevenote.

The 95% of Mac users living in the real world go to the Apple Store and buy a computer. They don't know, nor do they care, if some new Intel processor is in the works. Heck, I bet a lot of them don't even know Apple's using Intel chips now.

I have a buddy who just bought a MacBook Pro last week. I told him the Core 2 Duos are imminent, and he didn't care.

You think the kids going to the Apple store with mom and dad, ready to buy a MacBook, are going to run to Best Buy instead to pick up an HP notebook because it has a Core 2 Duo and the MacBook has a Core Duo? I highly doubt it. In fact, it's ridiculous.

They want the MacBook because it looks cool, it's what those trendy ads talk about, it works well with their iPod, etc, etc.

Ask the majority of MacBook and Mini owners where in level of importance they place the rev of Intel processor that's inside their computer and I bet most of them give a blank stare and go, "huh?"

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 12:36 PM
.You think my post is spam? :confused:

well, if you post the same thing in several threads (especially if it's unrelated to the subject of the discussion), then yes, i think it's spam

Stridder44
Aug 29, 2006, 12:44 PM
well, if you post the same thing in several threads (especially if it's unrelated to the subject of the discussion), then yes, i think it's spam


Spam? No, just off topic. But all these posts about his one post being off topic? Now that I could consider spam.

M-Life
Aug 29, 2006, 12:45 PM
It seems that if this rumor is correct, then why now? Why not 2 months ago? Have mini sales been all that great to warrant holding off on a simple update? Or could they possibly have been waiting for other products to move to merom so the mini doesn't infringe? I just don't understand why this has taken so long.

HecubusPro
Aug 29, 2006, 12:47 PM
A "FEW" weeks!!!!!!!
That too for a Core Duo and not even a Core 2 Duo!

Thats disappointing!!!

And what about the MBP?

It seems that if this rumor is correct, then why now? Why not 2 months ago? Have mini sales been all that great to warrant holding off on a simple update? Or could they possibly have been waiting for other products to move to merom so the mini doesn't infringe? I just don't understand why this has taken so long.

I would assume they're going to update everything at once to make a grander impression with all of the new upgrades. Sure, they could probably easily update the mini now and make it available for purchase, but why not wait until the C2D hits the other machines at the same time? That way Apple can say their entire computer product line has been updated. I think it makes more of an impression to casual computer and mac users.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 2006, 12:52 PM
I'm thinking something similar. 3.5x8.5x8.5. Basically a larger MacMini with a 3.5" hard drive, dedicated graphics, and video chipset similar to the Miglia TV Max.
Exactly!!!
I media center like this would sell like crazy... small, simple and elegant. Just imagine how many switchers you would get at the same time.

Multimedia
Aug 29, 2006, 12:56 PM
It seems that if this rumor is correct, then why now? Why not 2 months ago? Have mini sales been all that great to warrant holding off on a simple update? Or could they possibly have been waiting for other products to move to merom so the mini doesn't infringe? I just don't understand why this has taken so long.I would assume they're going to update everything at once to make a grander impression with all of the new upgrades. Sure, they could probably easily update the mini now and make it available for purchase, but why not wait until the C2D hits the other machines at the same time? That way Apple can say their entire computer product line has been updated. I think it makes more of an impression to casual computer and mac users.IF TRUE - Just In Time Invintory Management Makes When Yonah Price Falls The Time To Do It. That would be once Merom is shipping - like NOW.

I'm still not convinced this rumor is true. I've got my fingers crossed these two processors are going to be C2D at 1.66 and 1.83GHz - not Yonah.

Only fair & logical reason it might be true would be due to constrained supply of Merom to begin with so Apple has to use all those for MacBook Pro first, then iMac - excluding a Conroe plan -, MacBook and finally mini when supply of Merom is unconstrained like around November-December. By first doing the speed bumps to the Merom speeds with Yonah, they can deliver an immediate benefit to their mini customers without spreading the limited supply of Meroms all over the lines yet.

So after they have enough Meroms for MBP they can switch the MB to Meroms at the same speeds as now, then switch the mini ALMOST silently once that line is satisfied fully. iMac is a big unknown due to Conroe possability.

More I think about it, that is probably what's happening. Intel probably has the order with Apple designed to reduce the Yonah supply as quickly as they can provde enough Meroms to keep satisfying Apple's every growing appetite for more and more C2 Intel processors at the ever growing assembly lines in Taiwan & China.

kingtj
Aug 29, 2006, 01:06 PM
I think you hit on the key thing here! The target audience for the Mac Mini is starting to break down into 2 camps. One is the niche user who wants it for a homebrew media center setup. They like the faster, more powerful Minis - even if they cost a few hundred bucks extra.

The far larger target group, however, is the home user on a budget. The people I know who have interest in a Mini as their next computer are currently using 1-2 generation old Windows PCs that they bought used to begin with a couple years ago. They need to type letters, surf the Inet and check their email. They want to download pictures out of a digital camera and print copies, but they don't need fast 3D graphics for games. (They're the types who enjoy the little web-based games from GameHouse or PopCap, or Windows Solitaire.)

They like the promise of greater "ease of use" with OS X and a Mac, and less threat of viruses. They also like the small form-factor case, since they tend to stick their computer on a small desk or card table, as opposed to a nice computer desk purchased just for that purpose.

These people want a low price... not a "next generation CPU". I actually think it would be good if Apple could use the Mini as their system that helps them dispose of "old stock" spare parts and start selling it for a $349.95 and up price point.


Hope they bring back the $499 price point, Merom or not

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 01:08 PM
Spam? No, just off topic. But all these posts about his one post being off topic? Now that I could consider spam.

like i said, repeating same off-topic thing in several threads is imo spam

netdog
Aug 29, 2006, 01:09 PM
Think Secret say no Merom in the Mini so you guys believe it?

It makes little sense to continue with the Yonah.

I am suspect of this rumour.

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 01:10 PM
It seems that if this rumor is correct, then why now? Why not 2 months ago?

because merom is being releaased now, not two months ago. with merom, yonah will propably get very cheap

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 01:16 PM
intel will sell yonahs for quite some time besides merom. why sell them when merom is better? answer: because they will sell them for lower price

The pricelist from Intel themselves (PDF). (http://www.intel.com/intel/finance/pricelist/processor_price_list.pdf)

Core 2 Duo: Merom pricing.

Yonah prices in normal font, Merom in bold
1.66 GHz - $209/ $209
1.83 GHz - $241/ $241
2 GHz - $294/$294 etc. etc.

They cost the same! Intel hasn't announced any price drops yet.

Evangelion
Aug 29, 2006, 01:23 PM
The pricelist from Intel themselves (PDF). (http://www.intel.com/intel/finance/pricelist/processor_price_list.pdf)

Core 2 Duo: Merom pricing.

Yonah prices in normal font, Merom in bold
1.66 GHz - $209/ $209
1.83 GHz - $241/ $241
2 GHz - $294/$294 etc. etc.

They cost the same! Intel hasn't announced any price drops yet.

you can be certain that the price-difference is there. since merom and yonah are 1:1 compatible, why would anyone use yonah istead of merom? but since the two will be sold side-by-side, yonah obviously has some benefits that merom does not have. and that benefit is most likely price.

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 01:51 PM
you can be certain that the price-difference is there. since merom and yonah are 1:1 compatible, why would anyone use yonah istead of merom? but since the two will be sold side-by-side, yonah obviously has some benefits that merom does not have. and that benefit is most likely price.

I've got hard facts to back up my claim. Do you have any for yours? :)

Unspeaked
Aug 29, 2006, 01:52 PM
but since the two will be sold side-by-side, yonah obviously has some benefits that merom does not have. and that benefit is most likely price.

And the ability to grant three wishes.

(It's buried deep in the documentation...)

GFLPraxis
Aug 29, 2006, 01:53 PM
Yonah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Merom is pin-compatible and costs exactly the same amount. Besides, it would be a PR boost for Apple to have the entire lineup 64-bit and "Leopard ready". The Mac Mini is going to use the 5000 series Meroms and the iMac is going to use the 7000s.

Except now that Merom is out, Intel will be dropping the price on Yonah soon. Which will make Yonah cheaper.

spicyapple
Aug 29, 2006, 01:54 PM
Hope they bring back the $499 price point, Merom or not
I agree. :)

I was shocked when the price of the core duo minis increased in price above $500. As mentioned several times, that is the reason to buy a Mac mini. I think we'll see meroms in the iMacs as they represent the mid-level Macs in Apples line-up.

viperguy
Aug 29, 2006, 01:55 PM
LoL
The discussion in thinksecret is so fun at the moment, you can't even imagine how.
Basically everyone was talkin about it's video card, how it should be upgraded and things like that
But then these messages came into topic

User1
I think the Mac mini has a future as long as they can get a better video output and a DVR.

User2
It'd be great if they added a nuclear reactor.

User3
Will it include a pony?

Coments? Mine: LOL

GFLPraxis
Aug 29, 2006, 01:57 PM
I've got hard facts to back up my claim. Do you have any for yours? :)

Intel is expected to drop the price in September/October by almost everyone (including most analysts and media outlets), it's extremely likely they will.

BlizzardBomb
Aug 29, 2006, 02:00 PM
Intel is expected to drop the price in September/October by almost everyone (including most analysts and media outlets), it's extremely likely they will.

Yeah, that's why I said yet :) I'm guessing it'll be about a 10 - 25% drop.

shawnce
Aug 29, 2006, 02:07 PM
The pricelist from Intel themselves (PDF). (http://www.intel.com/intel/finance/pricelist/processor_price_list.pdf)

Core 2 Duo: Merom pricing.

Yonah prices in normal font, Merom in bold
1.66 GHz - $209/ $209
1.83 GHz - $241/ $241
2 GHz - $294/$294 etc. etc. That link is currently to the July 27th 2006 price list which was way before the merom announcement (note that no merom parts are listed). Wait until the new price list is posted...

Bregalad
Aug 29, 2006, 02:58 PM
To cut the price of the Mini by $100, Apple better hope Intel are doing a "Half Price" cut which is extremely unlikely. How much would it hurt Apple to just double the height of the Mini and put a 1.83 GHz Conroe (Allendale) in there and a 3.5" Hard Drive? I'm pretty sure no-one would be whining about that. It would also get the price back down to $499 easy!

I've been saying since the mini came out that it's too small. Even if it had been twice as big it still would've been very small. Going bigger would have allowed a 3.5" HD and a more standard logic board. Such a mega-mini would really be the media storage machine people are dreaming about because a 250GB HD is about the same price as an 80GB notebook drive while offering much better performance.

Of course I've also been saying that Apple needs to have a machine in the iMac price range that doesn't include a display. Remove the LCD, put in a desktop CPU and an upgradable video card and you're back where you started cost wise. The Mac Pro is such a good deal for people who need that kind of power that having a mini tower or desktop with fewer drive bays at the 20" iMac price point wouldn't take away any Pro sales. I think such a machine would attract a significant number of current PC users who can't cope with the all-in-one, can't upgrade anything concept of the iMac.

Having another tower would also drive Cinema Display sales. Maybe not a huge amount given that Apple displays are significantly more expensive than the competition, but any increase would be good for Apple's bottom line.

So why don't I like iMacs? In 14 years of owning Macs I've upgraded, on average, every two years. It makes absolutely no sense to toss aside a perfectly good display every two years when I can simply plug a new computer into it. When there is a major improvement in display technology I can change on my own timetable. Oh and I recently upgraded my RAM without having to remove any first and installed a second HD in preparation for Time Machine. Try doing that with an iMac.

swingerofbirch
Aug 29, 2006, 03:24 PM
I also think that making the mini bigger makes sense. I mean the Cube was a wonderful design and a few times larger than the mini.

Both of them have external power supplies, which from an esthetic point of view isn't the most pleasing. A larger design could potentially include an interal power supply, although it might make it a good deal nosier, I'm not sure.

4God
Aug 29, 2006, 03:32 PM
Well, may be off topic but the shipping times on the MacBooks has been inreasing on the Apple Store online U.S. since yesterday. They were at 3-5 business days yesterday and now they're all at 5-7. Could be something, could be nothing.

EDIT: Also, the 17" iMac was at 24 hrs and the 20" iMac was at 1-2 business days when I checked yesterday and now they are both at 1-2 business days.

HecubusPro
Aug 29, 2006, 03:37 PM
Well, may be off topic but the shipping times on the MacBooks has been inreasing on the Apple Store online U.S. since yesterday. They were at 3-5 business days yesterday and now they're all at 5-7. Could be something, could be nothing.

As has been reported, it's because of high demand due to the back-to-school season. Apple is having difficulty keeping up with that demand.

mrgreen4242
Aug 29, 2006, 03:43 PM
I also think that making the mini bigger makes sense. I mean the Cube was a wonderful design and a few times larger than the mini.

Both of them have external power supplies, which from an esthetic point of view isn't the most pleasing. A larger design could potentially include an interal power supply, although it might make it a good deal nosier, I'm not sure.

We've all been crying for a new cube since the mini came out... is the mini an awesome machine? Absolutely, I love mine. But there is a market for a headless iMac/Cube/MacPro mini... people like me. I don't need a quad core computer. I don't need 16gb of RAM. I don't need 4 harddrive bays, or even two optical drive slots.

I do want a fast CPU, an upgradable GPU, a couple of full size HDDs and a full size optical drive. I also want something quiet, relatively affordable (something a bit less than an iMac would be idea), and stylish.

I don't think that Apple would lose Mac Pro sales to something like this - they might lose iMac sales but if the margins are the same for them who cares, and any loss of mini sales would be upsells, so it'd be a good thing.

I think a lot PC types, especially gamers, would be interested, bringing in new markets... None of my gamer friends would be satisfied by an iMac, but neither would they shell out $2-3k for a Mac Pro.

Let's see, the mini is 6.5x6.5x2 inches, would anyone even notice if it went to 8.5x8.5x4? Even better would be 8x8x8, just for the cube dimensions, done in iPod white (or black), would look stellar on a desktop. Core 2 Duo 1.83ghz, 4 RAM slots for an 8gb max with 512mb installed stock, 1 16x PCIe w/ 7300GT base (BTO options), 1 PCI slot, 2 3.5" drive bays w/ 160gb standard, 1 5.25" bay w/ SD, AE, BT2, 6 USB2 (4 back, 2 front), 1 FW 400, 1 eSATA (in place of FW800)... $999 anyone? BTO options for slower/fast CPUs and GPUs, more RAM, bigger HDD and a $200 TV tuner/video encoder breakout box... :D

Bengt77
Aug 29, 2006, 03:58 PM
I thought the Yonah/Merom pricing 'issue' has been discussed some time ago, already. The 'conclusion' was that Intel would price the Merom the same as the Yonah, to be able to fight off AMD, which has closen in on Intel a bit too much, to Intel's liking. Intel wants everybody to switch to the Core 2 technology as soon as possible. That's the only way the Intel chips will be faster on all levels than their AMD counterparts. Because, yes, Yonah was a stopgap chip. Merom is the real New Chip™.

gnasher729
Aug 29, 2006, 04:28 PM
you can be certain that the price-difference is there. since merom and yonah are 1:1 compatible, why would anyone use yonah istead of merom? but since the two will be sold side-by-side, yonah obviously has some benefits that merom does not have. and that benefit is most likely price.

Who says Intel will keep selling Yonahs for long time once Merom comes out?

Dont Hurt Me
Aug 29, 2006, 04:37 PM
We've all been crying for a new cube since the mini came out... is the mini an awesome machine? Absolutely, I love mine. But there is a market for a headless iMac/Cube/MacPro mini... people like me. I don't need a quad core computer. I don't need 16gb of RAM. I don't need 4 harddrive bays, or even two optical drive slots.

I do want a fast CPU, an upgradable GPU, a couple of full size HDDs and a full size optical drive. I also want something quiet, relatively affordable (something a bit less than an iMac would be idea), and stylish.

I don't think that Apple would lose Mac Pro sales to something like this - they might lose iMac sales but if the margins are the same for them who cares, and any loss of mini sales would be upsells, so it'd be a good thing.

I think a lot PC types, especially gamers, would be interested, bringing in new markets... None of my gamer friends would be satisfied by an iMac, but neither would they shell out $2-3k for a Mac Pro.

Let's see, the mini is 6.5x6.5x2 inches, would anyone even notice if it went to 8.5x8.5x4? Even better would be 8x8x8, just for the cube dimensions, done in iPod white (or black), would look stellar on a desktop. Core 2 Duo 1.83ghz, 4 RAM slots for an 8gb max with 512mb installed stock, 1 16x PCIe w/ 7300GT base (BTO options), 1 PCI slot, 2 3.5" drive bays w/ 160gb standard, 1 5.25" bay w/ SD, AE, BT2, 6 USB2 (4 back, 2 front), 1 FW 400, 1 eSATA (in place of FW800)... $999 anyone? BTO options for slower/fast CPUs and GPUs, more RAM, bigger HDD and a $200 TV tuner/video encoder breakout box... :DThat is the machine that Apple needs, at the moment its still the marketeers at Apple who seem to rule their product offerings with mini vs All in one vs workstation..

APPLENEWBIE
Aug 29, 2006, 04:40 PM
I would instantly buy for my office a small form factor (not necessarily as small as the mini) mac with, essentially, the same specs that the 20" iMac has, maybe a bit faster even, if it had dual video outputs, room for a lot of ram and a little better video processor. I don't need or want a built in monitor for the same reason I don't buy anything but individual, stand-alone stereo components. I do not need or want a MacPro. Even the base MP is way more than I need. Just my $.02.

Oops... Just noticed Mrgreen... you have it exactly right, for about $1200?

And keep the mini priced low. It was my first mac, and I only had the 'guts' to try it because it was so cheep... It is a great gateway drug...

AvSRoCkCO1067
Aug 29, 2006, 04:44 PM
As has been reported, it's because of high demand due to the back-to-school season. Apple is having difficulty keeping up with that demand.

Apple's wait to use new processors is brilliant, in my opinion. This is a crucial point in the buying season - students need new computers now, not in a month or two.

Quite a few people on this board want Apple to simply announce the next Macbook Pro with Merom, even if it has delayed shipping. That would, however, compel students who need computers now to look elsewhere.

The only reason why Dell can announce Merombooks now is because they offer both the Yonah chips (shipping today) and the Merom chips (shipping in 10-20 days) - I don't see Apple offering both configurations simultaneously.

(1000th post - WOOT!)

gnasher729
Aug 29, 2006, 04:47 PM
IF TRUE - Just In Time Invintory Management Makes When Yonah Price Falls The Time To Do It. That would be once Merom is shipping - like NOW.

I'm still not convinced this rumor is true. I've got my fingers crossed these two processors are going to be C2D at 1.66 and 1.83GHz - not Yonah.

Only fair & logical reason it might be true would be due to constrained supply of Merom to begin with so Apple has to use all those for MacBook Pro first, then iMac - excluding a Conroe plan -, MacBook and finally mini when supply of Merom is unconstrained like around November-December. By first doing the speed bumps to the Merom speeds with Yonah, they can deliver an immediate benefit to their mini customers without spreading the limited supply of Meroms all over the lines yet.

So after they have enough Meroms for MBP they can switch the MB to Meroms at the same speeds as now, then switch the mini ALMOST silently once that line is satisfied fully. iMac is a big unknown due to Conroe possability.

More I think about it, that is probably what's happening. Intel probably has the order with Apple designed to reduce the Yonah supply as quickly as they can provde enough Meroms to keep satisfying Apple's every growing appetite for more and more C2 Intel processors at the ever growing assembly lines in Taiwan & China.

I think Apple has to use a Core 2 Duo chip in the iMac immediately following the MacBook Pro, before MacBook and MacMini. So if a Conroe iMac isn't developed quick enough, I would expect iMac using Merom, even if it ships that way for two months only.

BenRoethig
Aug 29, 2006, 04:49 PM
Exactly!!!
I media center like this would sell like crazy... small, simple and elegant. Just imagine how many switchers you would get at the same time.

I don't know about switchers, but it should be a success in the home entertainment center/ media PC market.

APPLENEWBIE
Aug 29, 2006, 05:02 PM
(Agreed. They need to get that bottom end of the price range covered so that there are options for everyone including students.)

Yes indeed. As noted above, the mac mini is a great gateway drug. It allows people to get in and experiment cheaply. That is what happened in my case. If the entry point were near $1k, I might not have switched.

QCassidy352
Aug 29, 2006, 05:13 PM
this is Think Secret we're talking about. I don't believe a word out of their lying mouths.

HecubusPro
Aug 29, 2006, 05:21 PM
Quite a few people on this board want Apple to simply announce the next Macbook Pro with Merom, even if it has delayed shipping. That would, however, compel students who need computers now to look elsewhere.

(1000th post - WOOT!)

I agree with you completely on this point, without having heard it put that way before. And congrats on the 1K post. :)

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 05:33 PM
The only reason why Dell can announce Merombooks now is because they offer both the Yonah chips (shipping today) and the Merom chips (shipping in 10-20 days) - I don't see Apple offering both configurations simultaneously.

Why not? They do it all the time. Simply keep the old model available until the new ones ship.

The real reason to not announce models too early is that it just makes some consumers wait for the next model. Might as well keep selling the existing inventory until the new models are ready.


this is Think Secret we're talking about. I don't believe a word out of their lying mouths.

Amen to that. I give this about as much credibility as an apple rumor scrawled in sharpie on a gas station toilet stall.

HecubusPro
Aug 29, 2006, 05:42 PM
Amen to that. I give this about as much credibility as an apple rumor scrawled in sharpie on a gas station toilet stall.

Huh? What happened there? Didn't Think Secret used to be the place to go for the most accurate rumors? I definitely trust macrumors and appleinsider a lot more than think secret now though.

milo
Aug 29, 2006, 05:49 PM
Huh? What happened there? Didn't Think Secret used to be the place to go for the most accurate rumors? I definitely trust macrumors and appleinsider a lot more than think secret now though.

They used to be pretty good, but they've been consistently wrong (or make worthlessly vague predictions) for a couple years now.

I don't know that I'd say I trust macrumors. They don't really report any rumors, they just link to rumors on other sites. The trustiness completely depends on who they link to.

HecubusPro
Aug 29, 2006, 05:51 PM
The trustiness completely depends on who they link to.

Don't you mean "truthiness?" :D Sorry, I love the Colbert Report.

aafuss1
Aug 29, 2006, 06:34 PM
No Blu-Ray, as slot load would not be able to have enough cooling-leave it for next Mac Pro.

Combo drive disappears, and is now EDU only. All retail now have DVD burning as standard-like on the iMac. Core Duo on all 2 configs. Perhaps a air-cooled GPU with dedicated RAM for the best modfel.

mrgreen4242
Aug 29, 2006, 07:44 PM
No Blu-Ray, as slot load would not be able to have enough cooling-leave it for next Mac Pro.


Huh? Why would a BR drive make any more heat than a 12x or 24x DVD drive? Hint: it won't. It's a disc that is the same size and weight and spinning at the same speeds... the only change is the wavelength of the laser reading the disc.

Decoding the data will take some juice, which will make some heat, but no more than any other CPU intensive task.

aafuss1
Aug 29, 2006, 09:05 PM
X3000 is the integrated graphics component of GMA965. It basically solves the problem of the GMA950 graphics having no hardware T&L. Hence why UT2004 scores sit in the toilet on Mac mini's and Macbooks.

It'll never challenge a midrange Nvidia or ATI card, but it'll make the mini and macbook a reasonable enry level gaming platform, which it ain't now.

See http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/G965/index.htm
for some juicy technobabble.

M.

Totally agree-even low end PC's have at least a option for a add-in T&L capable card. Plus the GMA 3000 will do Core Image and Animation very well.

aafuss1
Aug 29, 2006, 09:07 PM
Huh? Why would a BR drive make any more heat than a 12x or 24x DVD drive? Hint: it won't. It's a disc that is the same size and weight and spinning at the same speeds... the only change is the wavelength of the laser reading the disc.

Decoding the data will take some juice, which will make some heat, but no more than any other CPU intensive task.

The tray load drives I've seen internal photos of have fans in the drive itself.

aafuss1
Aug 29, 2006, 09:18 PM
Huh? Why would a BR drive make any more heat than a 12x or 24x DVD drive? Hint: it won't. It's a disc that is the same size and weight and spinning at the same speeds... the only change is the wavelength of the laser reading the disc.

Decoding the data will take some juice, which will make some heat, but no more than any other CPU intensive task.

The tray load drives I've seen internal photos of have fans in the drive itself.

The X3000 has Clear Video technology-good for media centre/video playback.

theBB
Aug 29, 2006, 09:40 PM
Huh? Why would a BR drive make any more heat than a 12x or 24x DVD drive? Hint: it won't. It's a disc that is the same size and weight and spinning at the same speeds... the only change is the wavelength of the laser reading the disc. Decoding the data will take some juice, which will make some heat, but no more than any other CPU intensive task.
Some of the reading, decoding, DRM, error control tasks will certainly happen in the drive itself, rather than CPU. More bits to process and faster data to send through the bus would certainly create more heat.

dizastor
Aug 30, 2006, 12:11 AM
Oh believe me, I agree with you 100% percent! I would LOVE to see "Mac pro Mini" from Apple.

Mac Pro Cube Mini?

No that's too long...

Mac Pube Mini!
much better

Evangelion
Aug 30, 2006, 02:27 AM
I've got hard facts to back up my claim. Do you have any for yours? :)

Those prices might not be valid anymore. And could you mention any of the reasons why anyone would use Yonah instead of Merom, if the prices are identical (more or less)?

Evangelion
Aug 30, 2006, 02:30 AM
Who says Intel will keep selling Yonahs for long time once Merom comes out?

Link (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2808&p=2). In short: "You'll note that Intel is quite aggressive with ramping Core 2 Duo up, but going into 2007 over a quarter of Intel's mobile processor shipments will still be Core Duo. "

TangoCharlie
Aug 30, 2006, 03:50 AM
Those speeds line up exactly with the T5000 series of Merom.

Intel T2400 Core Duo Yonah 1.83GHz 667MHz 2MB, Retail, BX80539T2400
Intel T2300 Core Duo Yonah 1.66Ghz 667MHz 2MB, Retail, BX80539T2300

Looks like the CPU speeds match onto Yonah parts too :rolleyes:

milo
Aug 30, 2006, 07:38 AM
Those prices might not be valid anymore. And could you mention any of the reasons why anyone would use Yonah instead of Merom, if the prices are identical (more or less)?

Nobody would. But the prices likely won't stay identical - as you point out, unless intel drops yonah prices, they probably won't be able to unload their remaining yonah chips. Just because a price drop hasn't been announced yet doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

Multimedia
Aug 30, 2006, 08:41 AM
Those speeds line up exactly with the T5000 series of Merom.And Yonah:
Intel T2400 Core Duo Yonah 1.83GHz 667MHz 2MB, Retail, BX80539T2400
Intel T2300 Core Duo Yonah 1.66Ghz 667MHz 2MB, Retail, BX80539T2300

Looks like the CPU speeds match onto Yonah parts too :rolleyes:That's why I'm thinking Apple is going to use indentical 32-bit Yonah speeds short term until Intel can keep up with Apple's Merom needs at a reduced price for the stop-gap short-term Yonah supplies. I'm thinking Intel will get caught up by November when Apple will quietly switch the mini assembly lines to Meroms. Almost a stealth switch except the packaging and docs will brag C2D on them.

This makes a lot of sense and adds immediate value to the mini line while Apple can't yet receive enough Merom processors to fulfill their short term needs while Intel is cranking up production. I think losing the single core mini is a huge big deal. Anyone who thinks they don't need two cores just doesn't have experience with that setup.

I think everyone here who is still on a single processor really can't understand why multi-core processing is so important because they don't know what it feels like. If they did, they would be on two or four already. Even the old Dual G4's are a huge advantage over the solos. :)

tilman
Aug 30, 2006, 09:40 AM
Fry's Electronics is advertising Core Solo Mini's for $499 today. "Some demo, some open box". That is usually a sign that they are clearing out their remaining stock of an item.

roland.g
Aug 30, 2006, 10:54 AM
Apple Store Refurbs.

A few days ago all the Mini refurbs disappeared from the Apple Store refurb list. After the Think Secret announcement, not only did they come back, but they added PPC models and a 1.66 Core Duo with 1GB RAM & 100GB HDD. Today, there is only one PPC model listed and that's it. Might be just coincidence, but that's a lot of activity.

Anyone know - Do current models usually disappear right before a speed bump and then reappear at a reduced price when new models are available?

HecubusPro
Aug 30, 2006, 11:36 AM
Fry's Electronics is advertising Core Solo Mini's for $499 today. "Some demo, some open box". That is usually a sign that they are clearing out their remaining stock of an item.

Is this all Fry's stores, or just the one you're referring to. If it's store-wide, I might actually have to make a trip down to my local Burbank Fry's store after work tonight. :)

Multimedia
Aug 30, 2006, 12:28 PM
Apple Store Refurbs.

A few days ago all the Mini refurbs disappeared from the Apple Store refurb list. After the Think Secret announcement, not only did they come back, but they added PPC models and a 1.66 Core Duo with 1GB RAM & 100GB HDD. Today, there is only one PPC model listed and that's it. Might be just coincidence, but that's a lot of activity.

Anyone know - Do current models usually disappear right before a speed bump and then reappear at a reduced price when new models are available?SAVE page prices don''t go down when new models appear. They are already reduced from original prices. For example, PowerBook G4's are still at the same price they were last year as are the Quad G5 since February. I wouldn't go for a Solo at Fry's at any price. But if the CD with 1GB RAM and 100GB HD were $599 on the SAVE page, it almost might be a steal if the MacBooks weren't $949. But then you could put a 2.33GHz Merom in there and pray. :)

Oh I see. You buy the Core Solo at Fry's for $499 and then put Merom C2D 2.33GHz in immediately and pray. :) I am hesitant to immediately void a new mini warranty when a 1.83GHz model is soon. A 2.33 Merom will cost over $600 I think. Probably worth waiting for the 1.66GHz DC for $599 next week or so.

There should be a lot of churn in that secton of the SAVE page listings. IE more will come back every few days as the overstock and demos come in for inspection and then offerings. Do you remember what the price was for the 1.66GHz CD 1GB RAM 100GB HD? Will be interesting to see how much that config will cost when the new models ship. :)Is this all Fry's stores, or just the one you're referring to. If it's store-wide, I might actually have to make a trip down to my local Burbank Fry's store after work tonight. :)Check you LA Times insert or copy of it online. Or phone them first. Sometimes offerings up here aren't made down there and vice versa.

roland.g
Aug 30, 2006, 12:42 PM
$100 off from $949 down to $849
IMO, not worth it.

mrgreen4242
Aug 30, 2006, 12:59 PM
Do you remember what the price was for the 1.66GHz CD 1GB RAM 100GB HD?

I think it was $849. I can't recall for sure, but I'm 90% sure it listed as 11% off original price, which is $849. Well, that had a SD in it not a CD.

kadajawi
Aug 30, 2006, 04:06 PM
Your prices really hurt. A very basic Core Solo is around $750 here.

Anyway I need to get a new computer for my parents really soon... can't really afford to wait for an upgrade (which would be nice, although not neccessary). How likely is the upgrade? Or maybe I should build them a PC... hm. Would be cheaper, as fast as the Mac, much better equipped and not that much bigger.

What I would love to see though wouldn't be a Mac not that Mini, but something in a real case, without compromising for size. Put in the cheapest Intel CPU that is up to date, so you can toss in any faster CPU. Or better let the customer decide. Basic version would have a cheap CPU, maybe even a Celeron. Onboard graphics (but PCIx slot!). Accept ordinary disc drives, maybe even deliver without. Minimum amount of RAM... as low as 256 MB? Do anything to keep prices low, but give the machine a good case, size something around Mac Pro, maybe a bit smaller. Midi Tower size. Can be white plastic for example, should be stylish. Important are only the casing and the board, so the user can upgrade. That would really be something for switchers... they could simply plug in their old hardware (please at least driver support for all ATI and nVidia cards, the most important sound cards (Creative and VIA Envy24* I guess)). Ok, I think that will only stay a dream :(

isgoed
Aug 30, 2006, 04:50 PM
Anyway I need to get a new computer for my parents really soon...
[…]
What I would love to see though wouldn't be a Mac not that Mini, but something in a real case, without compromising for size. Put in the cheapest Intel CPU that is up to date, so you can toss in any faster CPU. Or better let the customer decide. Basic version would have a cheap CPU, maybe even a Celeron. Onboard graphics (but PCIx slot!). Accept ordinary disc drives, maybe even deliver without. Minimum amount of RAM... as low as 256 MB? Do anything to keep prices low, but give the machine a good case, size something around Mac Pro, maybe a bit smaller. Midi Tower size. Can be white plastic for example, should be stylish. Important are only the casing and the board, so the user can upgrade. That would really be something for switchers... they could simply plug in their old hardware (please at least driver support for all ATI and nVidia cards, the most important sound cards (Creative and VIA Envy24* I guess)). Ok, I think that will only stay a dream :(Are you looking for a Mac for you or your parents? :rolleyes:

mrgreen4242
Aug 30, 2006, 08:09 PM
SAVE page prices don''t go down when new models appear. They are already reduced from original prices. For example, PowerBook G4's are still at the same price they were last year as are the Quad G5 since February.

I don't think that is always the case. In this case, specifically, we are likely looking at the high end mini bumping down to the low end price range, and the high end being a new machine. That would meant that the high end mini is basically getting a price drop, which would push the refurb price down: the refurb Core Duo mini is currently MORE than a new Core Solo. I'd definitely expect to see Duos get a price drop in the refurb store if the new mini line up is 1.66 duo and 1.83 duo.

timswim78
Aug 30, 2006, 09:58 PM
I don't think that is always the case. In this case, specifically, we are likely looking at the high end mini bumping down to the low end price range, and the high end being a new machine. That would meant that the high end mini is basically getting a price drop, which would push the refurb price down: the refurb Core Duo mini is currently MORE than a new Core Solo. I'd definitely expect to see Duos get a price drop in the refurb store if the new mini line up is 1.66 duo and 1.83 duo.

It will be interesting to see how Apple stocks and prices the refurb store once the new chips are in the Intel machines. I have noticed less and less PPC refurbs for iMacs and Minis. I guess that Apple is holding onto them in order to replace PPC machines that go bad while under warranty.

k8to
Aug 31, 2006, 12:09 AM
Grah. I hope this rumour proves incorrect. A processor that can't do x86-64 is planned obsolescence. I don't want to buy a computer that will be unable to run software in a few years!

ezekielrage_99
Aug 31, 2006, 01:02 AM
I can see that dropping the Core Solo happening because for a little extra you can get a Core Duo.

Multimedia
Aug 31, 2006, 03:45 AM
I don't think that is always the case. In this case, specifically, we are likely looking at the high end mini bumping down to the low end price range, and the high end being a new machine. That would meant that the high end mini is basically getting a price drop, which would push the refurb price down: the refurb Core Duo mini is currently MORE than a new Core Solo. I'd definitely expect to see Duos get a price drop in the refurb store if the new mini line up is 1.66 duo and 1.83 duo.Yes I agree that is what you would expect as would I. But it doesn't work that way. They are more than likely to stay just where they are.

Look at how old some of that stuff is from 2005 - a few even from 2004 - there and how they are still priced as if they hadn't long ago been replaced by more powerful models. Makes no sense. But there it is to study and see. :confused: :eek:

They're still selling Quad G5's for $2799 which is rediculous.

kadajawi
Aug 31, 2006, 04:40 AM
Are you looking for a Mac for you or your parents? :rolleyes:
Eh... both? :D They need a simple computer... -> Mac Mini. I would love to get a Mac too, but can't be bothered with machines that can't be upgraded (ok, you CAN upgrade a Mac Mini and iMac, but not that much). And a Mac Pro would just be way to expensive. I think there are quite a few users who think the same and would like to see a downgraded Mac Pro for switchers who can then keep some of their hardware.

AidenShaw
Aug 31, 2006, 06:47 AM
I think there are quite a few users who think the same and would like to see a downgraded Mac Pro for switchers who can then keep some of their hardware.
And Intel makes a chip just for that market segment - the Conroe. :D

kadajawi
Aug 31, 2006, 06:55 AM
Aye, now we only need the rest of the computer. Basically, just build a Mac Mini in a mini/midi tower, with a mainboard that allows you to install new hardware. And try to keep the price low.

Dont Hurt Me
Aug 31, 2006, 07:18 AM
Mini is just fine all it needs is a better graphics chip, its what really holds this machine down in my view and yes I own 1.

Evangelion
Aug 31, 2006, 07:19 AM
Grah. I hope this rumour proves incorrect. A processor that can't do x86-64 is planned obsolescence. I don't want to buy a computer that will be unable to run software in a few years!

What makes you think that it "can't run software"? Current 32bit CPU's will be usable for years to come.

mrgreen4242
Aug 31, 2006, 07:47 AM
Yes I agree that is what you would expect as would I. But it doesn't work that way. They are more than likely to stay just where they are.

Look at how old some of that stuff is from 2005 - a few even from 2004 - there and how they are still priced as if they hadn't long ago been replaced by more powerful models. Makes no sense. But there it is to study and see. :confused: :eek:

They're still selling Quad G5's for $2799 which is rediculous.

Er... The quad G5 isn't available new anymore, so it costs what it costs (there's nothing in the regular store to compare it to - the Mac Pro is NOT a one for one replacement)... IF this rumor is true, then the current lineup is just getting shuffled down with a new top end added, then they would have to drop refurb prices or it wouldn't make any sense.

Now if they just shuffle the CPU down (so the base mini still has a Combo drive and 60gb HDD, but gets a 1.66 Core Duo) they will STILL have to drop the refurb price... A new regular price Solo with SD and 80gb HDD is currently $699, which is the current Core Duo refurb price.

If they completely revamp the lineup then they may keep the same pricing, but seems highly unlikey as noone would buy them and keeping uneeded inventory on hand is bad business.

AidenShaw
Aug 31, 2006, 09:55 AM
What makes you think that it "can't run software"? Current 32bit CPU's will be usable for years to come.
The worry is that in a few years interesting software applications will only come in x64 - companies will drop the fat binaries due to the expenses associated with multiple versions of the software.

This is already happening on the Windows side - several major apps will only be x64 in their next versions.

So, not only can the 64-bit chip be significantly faster when in 64-bit mode - it is more future-proof.

Multimedia
Aug 31, 2006, 11:05 AM
Er... The quad G5 isn't available new anymore, so it costs what it costs (there's nothing in the regular store to compare it to - the Mac Pro is NOT a one for one replacement)... IF this rumor is true, then the current lineup is just getting shuffled down with a new top end added, then they would have to drop refurb prices or it wouldn't make any sense.

Now if they just shuffle the CPU down (so the base mini still has a Combo drive and 60gb HDD, but gets a 1.66 Core Duo) they will STILL have to drop the refurb price... A new regular price Solo with SD and 80gb HDD is currently $699, which is the current Core Duo refurb price.

If they completely revamp the lineup then they may keep the same pricing, but seems highly unlikey as noone would buy them and keeping uneeded inventory on hand is bad business.I agree with you. But for some reason who ever is in charge of that page does not. Mac Pro is certainly a replacement for the Quad G5 and much faster for less money. $2799 for a G5 Quad is not a fair market price.$1999 would be more reasonable.

That's why I am trying to get someone to do benchmarks between the Quad G5 and the 2GHz Mac Pro. My hunch is the 2GHz Mac Pro is faster than the 2.5GHz Quad G5. And a 2GHz Mac Pro is $2124 plus RAM.

Goldfinger
Aug 31, 2006, 12:12 PM
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-08-31/#5869

What about this ? :)

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 12:20 PM
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-08-31/#5869

What about this ? :)

Makes me hope that they bring back three levels:

$499 Core Duo 1.66, 60/80GB HD, Combo drive
$599 1.66, 100GB HD, Super Drive
$699 1.83, 100GB/120GB, Super Drive

Multimedia
Aug 31, 2006, 12:32 PM
What about this report of a silent mini update already in the pipeline on the French HardMac website? (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-08-31/#5869) :)

"I have ordered a Mac mini Core solo with 1GB of RAM last Saturday to use it as a server, and what a surprise when I received the box!

My Mac mini has been upgraded:
- Core Duo 1.66GHz instead of Core Solo 1.5GHz
- HD 100GB instead of 60GB
- and a SuperDrive instead of a Combo!

Thanks Apple !

On the box, the specifications are those of a Mac mini Core Solo..."Wow! Fantastic for $599. Awesome! Exactly what I was hoping for - esp the 100GB HD. Looking great. I wonder why the Apple Website Store hasn't been updated to reflect this change? :confused: Surely all in the pipeline that were 1.5 solo are now 1.66 duo. Perhaps Apple doesn't want Joe Blow to know so the rest of the solos can GO with the Blows? :D

That's gotta be the biggest increase in power in recent Apple history for no additional cost - twice the cores running faster than the previous one. Maybe back in the G4 days something like this happened. But it wasn't at the bottom of the line for $599. And it CERTAINLY wasn't unannounced and not even on the packaging!

I'm very excited for all the mini buyers out there. Congrats if you get one like this before Apple admits they are in the pipeline.

Goldfinger
Aug 31, 2006, 12:38 PM
Makes me hope that they bring back three levels:

$499 Core Duo 1.66, 60/80GB HD, Combo drive
$599 1.66, 100GB HD, Super Drive
$699 1.83, 100GB/120GB, Super Drive
Indeed, that's what I'm hoping for ! a 499$ one for me but with a superdrive. Don't care about those 20gigs.

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 12:42 PM
If the $499 model has a superdrive too, what's the incentive to get the $599 version? Larger HD isn't enough, and I don't see Apple either dropping the higher-priced model or putting anything faster than 1.83 in the mini.

And I'm basing this on the guy in on the link above having his $599 current core solo replaced with what I put for the $599 model.

So maybe:

$599: Core Duo 1.66, 100GB, Superdrive, 512MB
$799: Core Duo 1.83, 120GM, Superdrive, 1GB

Goldfinger
Aug 31, 2006, 01:18 PM
What I mean is that I would get the $499 model but BTO it with a superdrive. A $549 model so to speak.

We'll see. If the low end becomes a dual 1.66 I'm getting one.

Multimedia
Aug 31, 2006, 01:31 PM
What I mean is that I would get the $499 model but BTO it with a superdrive. A $549 model so to speak.

We'll see. If the low end becomes a dual 1.66 I'm getting one.You know what the difference in cost is between a Combo Drive and a Superdrive?

About $5

I am confused why you use the word IF? :confused: This report confirms it has already happened (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-08-31/#5869) - unless you think Apple made a mistake fulfilling his order for a 1.5GHz CS by putting a 1.66GHz CD BTO in a CS box? That is next to impossably unlikely. :rolleyes:

All we need is one more report like above to corroborate this is a fact. I wonder how long before the rumor sites put it out as a fact.

WE HAVE CONFIRMATION (NOT):I posted this on the mini specs forum, but thought it would be needed here as well.
Are they already shipping then?

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2010Oops. It's the same reported source not confirmation.

They have obviously run out of their last shipment of Core Solo Yonahs and received their new supply of 1.66GHz CDs for that part of the mini assembly lines. I guess marketing is behind the curve on this one. Perhaps so as many Solo Units can get flushed off the shelves before they ADMIT THIS CHANGE. That wouold explain why Fry's is now ADVERTISING 1.5GHz Core Solo minis for $499. IE the buyers have been notified already and told to dump all the Core Solos ASAP since the replacement 1.66GHz Core Duos are in transit to the srores.

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 02:23 PM
You know what the difference in cost is between a Combo Drive and a Superdrive?

About $5

Well, that may be, but Apple likes nice round even numbers.

MacSA
Aug 31, 2006, 02:24 PM
I really think it's about time the Superdrive came standard on all Apple computers, it 2006 not 1996. Hopefully the MacBook will also get Superdrive in both models.

k8to
Aug 31, 2006, 02:34 PM
The worry is that in a few years interesting software applications will only come in x64 - companies will drop the fat binaries due to the expenses associated with multiple versions of the software.
[...]
So, not only can the 64-bit chip be significantly faster when in 64-bit mode - it is more future-proof.

Ding, ding, ding! I buy computers around once every four years, sometimes even less frequently. A "Core Duo" without EMT64 or amd64 or whatever you want to is not a four year computer. It is not good performance for money compared to merom (especially since you have to buy a whole rest of the computer to get it), and more importantly, x86-64 only apps will exist in this 4-5 year window.

Larger companies, and general apps aren't such a big concern. They will probably be willing to supply x86 versions four years from now for all but the most demanding apps. However, independent developers working on projects making interesting niche software are less likely to want to deal with the hassle of fixing bugs on multiple architectures.

I've actually had development tasks where a single process used over 4 gigs virtual. I've never needed to do such on my personal machine so far, but it would be pretty unsurprising to cross that boundary in the next few years. With x86-64 the task can just run all night, and swap what may. With x86, it might involve lots of workarounds, or be simply impossible. This does not appeal to me!

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 02:36 PM
I really think it's about time the Superdrive came standard on all Apple computers, it 2006 not 1996. Hopefully the MacBook will also get Superdrive in both models.

The first mac to even come with the option of a superdrive (meaning writes DVDs) was the PowerMac G4 that came out January 2001. In 1996, Macs didn't even come with CD-R drives.

MacSA
Aug 31, 2006, 02:38 PM
The first mac to even come with the option of a superdrive (meaning writes DVDs) was the PowerMac G4 that came out January 2001. In 1996, Macs didn't even come with CD-R drives.

Well......you know what I mean ;)

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 02:43 PM
Well......you know what I mean ;)

I do, but I also love to be an ass. :)

I think Apple would enjoy being able to say "all superdrive, all 64-bit, all dual core..."

And we'd enjoy hearing it. But Apple also has to gouge us for profit. It's a two way street.

HecubusPro
Aug 31, 2006, 02:49 PM
Really?! This is very interesting. Are they already shipping then?

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2010

Goldfinger
Aug 31, 2006, 02:56 PM
Let's hope that those specs aren't the final ones. That they're just to clear inventory.

I'm hoping for Merom based mac minis.. Merom costs the same so why not ?

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 03:00 PM
Let's hope that those specs aren't the final ones. That they're just to clear inventory.

I'm hoping for Merom based mac minis.. Merom costs the same so why not ?

Knowing that Apple doesn't pay listed prices, it's not unreasonable to assume that Apple could get the Yonah chips for less than Merom ones.

Also, Apple has historically liked to scale its product lineup to encourage buying then next item up the scale. Some have even referred to it as "crippling" the lower machines.

Dont Hurt Me
Aug 31, 2006, 03:05 PM
Knowing that Apple doesn't pay listed prices, it's not unreasonable to assume that Apple could get the Yonah chips for less than Merom ones.

Also, Apple has historically liked to scale its product lineup to encourage buying then next item up the scale. Some have even referred to it as "crippling" the lower machines.Ahh crippling like using inferior Gpu's like in ProMac & Mini? Both GMA950 & 7300 are bottom tier.

Goldfinger
Aug 31, 2006, 03:07 PM
Knowing that Apple doesn't pay listed prices, it's not unreasonable to assume that Apple could get the Yonah chips for less than Merom ones.
But the same is true for Merom chips. It's not that they aren't getting volume discounts just because the chip is new..

Also, Apple has historically liked to scale its product lineup to encourage buying then next item up the scale. Some have even referred to it as "crippling" the lower machines.
True.

pilotError
Aug 31, 2006, 03:20 PM
it's not unreasonable to assume that Apple could get the Yonah chips for less than Merom ones.

Are the Yonah chips being phased out now that Merom is coming on line?

I would think the same fab would produce the Merom chips...

BenRoethig
Aug 31, 2006, 03:23 PM
Ahh crippling like using inferior Gpu's like in ProMac & Mini? Both GMA950 & 7300 are bottom tier.


The 7300GT is a lot better than the name implies. It's more like a 7600 light than a regular 7300. Specs are significantly better for this card than the Radeon x1600 the iMacs use.

Are the Yonah chips being phased out now that Merom is coming on line?

I would think the same fab would produce the Merom chips...

Yes. Any yonahs around would probably be from existing stock. It's a direct replacement.

Goldfinger
Aug 31, 2006, 03:35 PM
Any chance of a new chip set with a newer GMA ?

aquajet
Aug 31, 2006, 03:55 PM
I just hope Apple doesn't make a habit of this "stealth" upgrade ********. I'm ready to buy now, but I'll wait a bit for an update. If I hear about people receiving core duos when core solo is written on the box, then I think my head will explode.

miloblithe
Aug 31, 2006, 04:00 PM
Any chance of a new chip set with a newer GMA ?

If so, Intel's keeping it a big secret.
(which means no).

HecubusPro
Aug 31, 2006, 04:00 PM
I just hope Apple doesn't make a habit of this "stealth" upgrade ********. I'm ready to buy now, but I'll wait a bit for an update. If I hear about people receiving core duos when core solo is written on the box, then I think my head will explode.

Acording the story in the link I posted above, it's happened to at least one person so far. That may be what they're going for with the Mini's. Would they do the same thing with C2D and MBP's, MB's, etc.?

aquajet
Aug 31, 2006, 04:03 PM
Acording the story in the link I posted above, it's happened to at least one person so far. That may be what they're going for with the Mini's. Would they do the same thing with C2D and MBP's, MB's, etc.?

I can't recall Apple ever doing this on any machine besides the mini. I hope it's just an oversight of some sort. Regardless, I can already feel the pressure mounting in my brain...

Multimedia
Aug 31, 2006, 08:19 PM
Let's hope that those specs aren't the final ones. That they're just to clear inventory.

I'm hoping for Merom based mac minis.. Merom costs the same so why not ?LIMITED SUPPLY of Merom for the first few months. mini will be the last to get C2D probably in November. But you've gotta give kudos to Apple for adopting the Merom Spec Yonahs into the mini right away. This way the switch to Merom in mini can be almost silent with no disruption to the flow of minis to the market.

AidenShaw
Aug 31, 2006, 09:29 PM
Just got my registration, hotel and everything for the Fall IDF... (http://www.intel.com/idf/us/fall2006/)

I'll find out about all the top-secret Intel roadmap stuff nano-seconds before the rest of the universe.

And I'll be able to say "what, you're not waiting for the 6-core Snoqualamie chipset and the Sammamish CPU" with a straight face. :eek:

reflex
Sep 5, 2006, 06:56 AM
Do you seriously want the Apple is behind/outdated mindset to sink in again?

Personally I don't care one bit about Apple being seen as outdated, but it would just be one model. And the cheapest at that. With a dual core cpu, which most new pc's don't have at this time. In a cute little package.

I'm mostly saying that a 64bit cpu in a mini doesn't make sense until Leopard arrives and that is far enough away for another mini update before it happens.

4God
Sep 6, 2006, 12:15 PM
LIMITED SUPPLY of Merom for the first few months. mini will be the last to get C2D probably in November. But you've gotta give kudos to Apple for adopting the Merom Spec Yonahs into the mini right away. This way the switch to Merom in mini can be almost silent with no disruption to the flow of minis to the market.


Looks like it is still Yonah for now:

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has updated the Mac Mini to include all Core Duo models. Other than the processor upgrade, there does not appear to be any differences between the previous Mac Mini and today's release. The Mac Mini is available in two offerings:

1.66 GHz Mac Mini
60 GB 5400-rpm SATA Hard Drive
Combo Drive

1.83 GHz Mac Mini
80 GB 5400-rpm SATA Hard Drive
Superdrive

Both models feature:
-2MB Shared L2 Cache
-512 MB 667 MHz DDR2 RAM standard (up to 2 GB supported)
-GMA 950 Integrated graphics
-1 Firewire 400, 4 USB 2.0
-Optical Digital/Analog Audio In/Out
-Gigabit ethernet
-Airport Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0+EDR standard

Of note, the Mac Mini still uses Core Duo (Yonah), not the more advanced Core 2 Duo "Merom" chip found in today's iMac announcements (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060906091309.shtml).