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View Full Version : What If Apple Did Sell Macs with Windows Pre-installed?


MacBytes
Aug 30, 2006, 08:57 PM
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Link: What If Apple Did Sell Macs with Windows Pre-installed? (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060830215712)
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swingerofbirch
Aug 30, 2006, 09:06 PM
Apple's been on a slippery slope to success and I can see it happening.

After all, they attack PC's in their ads not Windows.

Apple used to bash Intel. Apple now uses Intel.

Apple said it didn't care if people tried to install Windows on the Mac once they switched to Intel, but they were not going to provide a way to do it.

Now they do that, and advertise that they are able to do that.

Preinstalling Windows would make bootcamp easier to use and more cost-effective..... (Windows retail vs. OEM price)

daneoni
Aug 30, 2006, 09:34 PM
Not "what if", it WILL happen soon in the future. Macs have now become fully commercialised. The exclusivity/Think Different slogans that embodied Apple are dying and will continue to die away with each intel revision IMO.

timswim78
Aug 30, 2006, 09:40 PM
Well, if they do, they'll have to offer support for Windows. There won't be any more of this "use Windows at your own risk," attitude. People paying $3,000+ for a MacPro wouldn't be happy if Apple said, "Yes, we know that we sold you this PC with Windows on it, but we aren't going to support Windows."

I would be interested in seeing who Apple would choose to support Windows. Would they use their own techs, or would they farm it out to Dell, Compaq/HP, or *gasp* Microsoft?

zap2
Aug 30, 2006, 10:02 PM
Doubt it, they took to many shots of Vista, why should they OS X is ahead of it by so much..if they ever do it will be after Vista

swingerofbirch
Aug 30, 2006, 10:31 PM
I don't know about the tier 1 PC manufacturers, but with my eMachines desktop, eMachines does not really offer any Windows support. Perhaps they do in theory, but when you call with any question that is not hardware related, their solutions have involved doing a system restore or completely re-installing the OS.

If you have specific questions, they have told me to call Microsoft. Microsoft tells you that eMachines is SUPPOSED to offer the Windows support and to get support through Microsoft you have to pay an outrageous amount of money or buy a retail copy of Windows (also paying an outrageous amount).

kev0476
Aug 30, 2006, 10:51 PM
What about all the people who don't want windows you are going to charge them more for something they won't use? many of the programs will start coming over to mac now that the processor is the same.

If they do anything it will be to put it as an additional add on for lots of money and a side note saying apple does not support windows, but offers it as an option to those who want their mac ready to do anything, including windows program, of course at an insane price.

BenRoethig
Aug 30, 2006, 11:01 PM
Windows support is only half the problem. If your desktop options involve a Mini, an iMac, and a workstation and the customer isn't interested in those, you're not going to make a sale no matter what you stick on the hard drive. It could help sell a few more xserves, Mac Pros, and notebooks, but anyone who has notions of the Mac taking over the computing world as current is delusional.

agent.86
Aug 30, 2006, 11:10 PM
What about all the people who don't want windows you are going to charge them more for something they won't use? many of the programs will start coming over to mac now that the processor is the same.

If they do anything it will be to put it as an additional add on for lots of money and a side note saying apple does not support windows, but offers it as an option to those who want their mac ready to do anything, including windows program, of course at an insane price.

In this scenario, people would merely select if they want Windows pre-installed and pay the extra. Exaclty the same way some OEM manufacturers do it now. Whenever you buy a new PC, you are also PAYING extra for Windows, it's just that most of the time it's built into the cost and not shown an an extra or even optional. With some PC makers Windows is optional, as you may want to run Linux or you may already own a copy of Windows.

Just to clear things up, the fact that Apple now uses Intel processors does NOT mean that all of a sudden software writers will develop versions for MAC OS. It's the OS and not the CPU that a program is written for.

daneoni
Aug 30, 2006, 11:48 PM
Doubt it, they took to many shots of Vista, why should they OS X is ahead of it by so much..if they ever do it will be after Vista

Yeah but you cant really look at it that way, i mean look at what happened with intel. They heavily attacked intel and now macs are shipping intel inside.

Also they dont have to support windows AT ALL!. They are just installing the software for you, they didnt write it, they can only verify it'll run on it. Whenever you have issues they'll just give the classic "contact the OEM"

ezekielrage_99
Aug 31, 2006, 12:30 AM
I can see it now.

People using a Dell and very happy with Mac OSX running on it until the Laptop blows up.

First rate operating system and some third degree burns :cool:

sunfast
Aug 31, 2006, 03:24 AM
I really don't see it happening any time soon. Aren't they pushing parallels rather than dual boot at the moment anyway?

FleurDuMal
Aug 31, 2006, 03:35 AM
Would Apple really have pushed the "Macs don't get viruses" line in their ads if they intended to pre-install the virus-prone Windows? :confused:

hoppo99
Aug 31, 2006, 05:29 AM
Apple's been on a slippery slope to success and I can see it happening.

After all, they attack PC's in their ads not Windows.

Apple used to bash Intel. Apple now uses Intel.

Apple said it didn't care if people tried to install Windows on the Mac once they switched to Intel, but they were not going to provide a way to do it.

Now they do that, and advertise that they are able to do that.

Preinstalling Windows would make bootcamp easier to use and more cost-effective..... (Windows retail vs. OEM price)

But they are not attacking PCs in their ads, they are attacking Windows! After all an Intel Mac is essentially a PC under the hood. Viruses, crashing, true plug and play, iLife, etc., are software issues and not hardware related. Why would Apple attack the hardware when Macs are almost identical now and Intel is an important partner? As has always been the case, Macs are Macs because of the software - Mac OS X's superiority over Windows!

calculus
Aug 31, 2006, 05:47 AM
Well I for one would have to find an easy way to take it off!

daneoni
Aug 31, 2006, 05:50 AM
Would Apple really have pushed the "Macs don't get viruses" line in their ads if they intended to pre-install the virus-prone Windows? :confused:

Stranger things can/have happened

Yvan256
Aug 31, 2006, 08:31 AM
I don't want to pay for something I'm not going to use. I'd rather see Apple implement something along the lines of WINE.

wbread5
Aug 31, 2006, 08:58 AM
Am I the only one feeling threatened by the thought of Apple becoming a tier 1? There's something satifying about pulling your MacBook out of your bag and plopping it in front of your PC at work.

The way I see it, switching from PC to Mac is like immigration: if you want to live here, learn the language. :D

zap2
Aug 31, 2006, 09:20 AM
Yeah but you cant really look at it that way, i mean look at what happened with intel. They heavily attacked intel and now macs are shipping intel inside.



Yes but they attack intel when they were using P3 and P2, much different from Core Duo and Core 2 Duo..maybe when we see the next Windows(after Vista) would be the only possible time. But still Shipping Windows is very different,because it attacks what Apple is, i doubt it will happen. They did look at Windows NT for a kernal for their next OS(which would later become OS X) so it might be possible, but not with Jobs in charge

PlaceofDis
Aug 31, 2006, 09:23 AM
no. it won't happen for a few reasons.

1. Mac OS X is one of the selling points for Mac Hardware.
2. Support. if Apple sells the computer with Windows, they have to deal with its complications, its not worth the time and effort for Apple to do this, allow people to install it on their own, yes. pre-installed, no.
3. this would eat away at Apple's idea that OS X is indeed a better operating system and would move them into just another hardware only company. Apple is an integrated solution. i don't see that changing anytime soon with any luck because that is what makes the Mac experience so great.

Chundles
Aug 31, 2006, 09:32 AM
Our resellers have been doing it since Boot Camp appeared. If you bought a MBP you got a free copy of XP Pro and they would set it all up for you.

Soba
Aug 31, 2006, 09:34 AM
Pre-installing Windows would be a mistake. The support costs have already been talked about here, so I won't address that.

The idea that companies won't buy a Mac unless it has Windows pre-installed is really out of touch with reality. The vast majority of companies have a volume license for Windows - to get one of these, all you need is five computers - and large companies have enterprise agreements. They already own Windows. When they buy a machine from Dell with Windows pre-installed, they're paying for something that they already own. I have never worked for a company that did not wipe every machine that came in the door and perform a clean install (or simply deploy a standardized system image) because the systems all come pre-installed with too much garbage that simply causes problems down the road.

Pre-installing Windows will only drive the price up. Does anyone really think Apple is going to give you a machine with Windows and Mac OS X on it for the same price as a machine without Windows?

You might be thinking that people have the option of not buying Windows, but Microsoft's contracts with their OEMs usually do not work that way. Microsoft offers far less favorable pricing (or denies the right to sell Windows altogether) to system builders that do not include Windows on every machine they sell, whether the customer wants Windows or not. This all came out during the antitrust trial, and the practice continues today. It is extremely difficult to buy a computer from any major vendor without Windows on it; they simply are not sold without an OS.

Of course this is not true with very small companies that simply buy one machine at a time from Dell or Gateway and don't have a volume license, but...well, that's not really what this whole discussion is about; we're talking about large volume, corporate customers.

I'm not saying Apple will never do it, but I simply don't see many advantages and a whole list of disadvantages to selling Windows. It's not as if no one knows where to get Windows if they want it. And Apple does offer Windows driver support via Boot Camp, so all of the pieces are in place for people who really want to run Windows. They should stay out of that business and keep their costs down and service quality up.

My two cents.

BruinJohn
Aug 31, 2006, 10:00 AM
My cousin went to the Stoneridge Mall Apple store in Northern California and she got an imac, printer, ipod, and they offered her Windows XP for $50 off, making it $100. This happened to my other cousin who bought a MacBook in Utah at the Apple Store in Gateway mall. They offered her a Windows copy for $100 too. So, the apple stores certainly are pushing Windows. Maybe its because both of my cousins were switching from PC's and Apple may feel it would be an easier "switch" for these type of clients if they offered XP so they can have an OS that is familiar to them when they get frustrated with the new Mac OS. But neither of my cousins have installed XP on their new macs, and they say the don't need to. Go Apple!!!!!

IJ Reilly
Aug 31, 2006, 10:50 AM
Windows support is only half the problem. If your desktop options involve a Mini, an iMac, and a workstation and the customer isn't interested in those, you're not going to make a sale no matter what you stick on the hard drive. It could help sell a few more xserves, Mac Pros, and notebooks, but anyone who has notions of the Mac taking over the computing world as current is delusional.

Only a third of the problem, really. Historically, Microsoft has prohibited their EOMs from offering the same model and configuration PC with or without Windows. The reason I presume is to prevent customers from determining how much they are paying for Windows. Assuming this policy is still in place, and I've got no reason to suspect that it isn't, Apple would be stuck with these terms as a Microsoft OEM. As a result, Apple would probably have to offer a Mac + Windows model which is different from the rest of the product line in some significant way. I can't see Apple doing this to please Microsoft. I think Apple is far better off keeping an arm's length from Microsoft and their controlling policies, by allowing/encourging their dealers (including the Apple Stores) to add OEM copies of Windows to Mac purchases at the point-of-sale.

Josh
Aug 31, 2006, 11:00 AM
Pre-installing Windows will only drive the price up. Does anyone really think Apple is going to give you a machine with Windows and Mac OS X on it for the same price as a machine without Windows?


The price should be even less if Windows is installed too, since then you're only getting half of a good machine.:)

(rimshot and laughter)

AlmostThere
Aug 31, 2006, 04:07 PM
2. Support. if Apple sells the computer with Windows, they have to deal with its complications, its not worth the time and effort for Apple to do this, allow people to install it on their own, yes. pre-installed, no.


Out of interest, do Apple support OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, Comic Life, GraphicConverter and all the other 3rd party apps they have bundled with their computers over the years?

yg17
Aug 31, 2006, 05:20 PM
After all an Intel Mac is essentially a PC under the hood.


This sentence annoys me. Macs have always been PCs. PC means personal computer. That's what a Mac is, and always has been. I don't know why people started to associate PC with x86.


Anyways, it won't happen, because they won't want to support Windows. Yeah, they could sell it as an "at your own risk, you're on your own" thing, but that's terrible for customer service because you have novice computer users who call the first phone number they see for anything....for f*cks sake, I work at an IT call center for the university and I got a call yesterday with someone asking me the number for the Missouri DMV :rolleyes: I googled it and gave the guy the number, because it would've looked bad for me to just tell him "too bad" and hang up. Apple is a much larger company with more at stake, it will look very bad for them if their customer service reps are hanging up on them. Yes, they have good reason to not help them, but it still won't look good. And I don't see Apple doing full blown Windows support either.

PlaceofDis
Aug 31, 2006, 05:32 PM
Out of interest, do Apple support OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, Comic Life, GraphicConverter and all the other 3rd party apps they have bundled with their computers over the years?

i wouldn't know because i haven't had a problem with them or know someone who has.

Windows isn't a 3rd party app though

yg17
Aug 31, 2006, 06:17 PM
Out of interest, do Apple support OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, Comic Life, GraphicConverter and all the other 3rd party apps they have bundled with their computers over the years?

I'd imagine calls for those apps are few and far between and it's not a big deal to offer a bit of assistance. But calls about the OS will be numerous, especially once a Windows install begins it's natural movement towards spyware and virus infected crappiness. Apple can't be bothered with hundreds of calls a day regarding "I opened some random attachment in my e-mail and then visited a bunch of porn sites in IE and now my computer doesn't work"

AlmostThere
Sep 1, 2006, 03:05 AM
Windows isn't a 3rd party app though

Er, why?
:confused: