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MacRumors
Sep 1, 2006, 01:10 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

According to reports, Apple has already provided an update to their Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Preview that was distributed to developers at WWDC 2006. The update provides few details on the improvements provided:

This Software Update delivers improved reliability and compatibility for Mac OS X Leopard Developer Preview and is recommended for all users.

The 46.4MB release is simply entitled "Leopard Developer Preview Update 1.0" and updates Build 9A241 to Build 9A241e.

Apple demonstrated (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard at WWDC, revealing some of the features that are expected. Mac OS X 10.5 is not expected to be released until Spring of 2007.

ColdFlame87
Sep 1, 2006, 01:15 AM
Anything asthetically new in this version, or perhaps some new small features?

dongmin
Sep 1, 2006, 01:16 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

According to reports, Apple has already provided an update to their Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Preview that was distributed to developers at WWDC 2006. The update provides few details on the improvements provided:



The 46.4MB release is simply entitled "Leopard Developer Preview Update 1.0" and updates Build 9A241 to Build 9A241e.

Apple demonstrated (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard at WWDC, revealing some of the features that are expected. Mac OS X 10.5 is not expected to be released until Spring of 2007.Any word on the Super Secret Leopard Features???

Fotek2001
Sep 1, 2006, 01:16 AM
So when will us ADC select developers get our hands on a copy, that's what I'd like to know..?

evilgEEk
Sep 1, 2006, 01:20 AM
Anything asthetically new in this version, or perhaps some new small features?
Probably just stability issues and whatnot. Although if there are any new things I'm sure we'll hear about it soon enough. :)

I can't wait until Leopard!!

amacgenius
Sep 1, 2006, 01:38 AM
Who wants to take bets on when the update will be released on torrent sites and FTP servers just like the dev beta? :D

TheKrillr
Sep 1, 2006, 01:44 AM
Who wants to take bets on when the update will be released on torrent sites and FTP servers just like the dev beta? :D

It won't need to be, those who have 10.5 installed already simply need to run the builtin update software... just like every other system update for every other OS X version.

ajkrause
Sep 1, 2006, 01:45 AM
Anything asthetically new in this version, or perhaps some new small features?

Nope. Nothing has changed in the UI and no noteable new features. As far as the super secret Leopard features, dongmin, they still remain super secret although the few new features in the preview are quite handy and have already become "How did I ever live without this?" kind of valuable to me.

I haven't noticed any major changes so far since the update. The issues I was having before persist though not as often and they are minor. The Leopard Preview is surprisingly stable unlike someone else's beta OS... no names ::cough::Microsoft::cough::

Parallels Desktop for Mac works fine under Leopard BEFORE installing the recently released Parallels Desktop beta update. If you install the Parallels Desktop beta update, colors in the app buttons/windows are distorted (http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9683/snapshot20060831231144xj6.jpg) and this Leopard update does not seem to remedy that. Also, as stated above, the build number has changed (http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/978/snapshot20060831230551mc2.jpg).

iChat continues to be buggy during one way video chats and Parallels after the update continues to have its issues (besides the color distortion) but prior to the Parallels update, these issues were not present so Parallels Desktop 1848 seems to be completely compatible with the Leopard preview but not Parallels 1862.

I should also note that fan behavior on my MacBook Pro with the Leopard Developer Preview (10.5) is excellent... immensely better than with Tiger (10.4.7) but that was true even before I installed the Leopard Preview Update 1.0. :D

JackSYi
Sep 1, 2006, 01:48 AM
I can't wait till MWSF 07.

BWhaler
Sep 1, 2006, 02:07 AM
For some reason this bummed me out.

I guess I was hopeful that the developer preview was an old build with just enough for the developers to test their apps, and just enough cool new stuff to keep the public interested.

I was hoping that the build was 6 - 8 months old, and Apple was working on a build with all of the top secret features that was going to blow us away.

But I guess while there are obviously a few things up Apple's sleave, we've seen a good chunk of Leopard. I guess that makes sense given each release has 3 - 5 meaningful new features, and 20 or so little new nice touches.

I guesss my hope stemmed from the opportunity to slap Microsoft and Vista. Looks like Leopard is going to be a typical release.

amols
Sep 1, 2006, 02:15 AM
Who wants to take bets on when the update will be released on torrent sites and FTP servers just like the dev beta? :D

It says 'through Software Update', so if you have Leopard installed, you should be able to download it just like normal updates. No need to go BACK to torrents ;) .

mulletman13
Sep 1, 2006, 02:31 AM
I got 9A2439 from my University's seeding server, while the one released to devs at WWDC was 9A2441... but nevertheless this updated to 9A2441e.

Upon rebooting I noticed everything was a bit snappier and some minor bugs were fixed. 10.5 is running really speedy... damn near 10.4 or dare I say... faster?

ajkrause
Sep 1, 2006, 02:39 AM
I got 9A2439 from my University's seeding server, while the one released to devs at WWDC was 9A2441... but nevertheless this updated to 9A2441e.

Upon rebooting I noticed everything was a bit snappier and some minor bugs were fixed. 10.5 is running really speedy... damn near 10.4 or dare I say... faster?

Apple has a history of that... making their OS'es run faster than the previous one on the same hardware. At least that's what my experience has been with Panther, Tiger and Leopard preview.

When I bought my Powerbook G4 3 years ago, it came with Panther, then I upgraded to Tiger and it seemed to run much faster... much more responsive. After its hard drive died, I sold it and repaced it with a MacBook Pro with Tiger pre-installed and now that I am running on Leopard, it's running just as fast and sometimes even faster than Tiger. I am very pleased.*:)

realtime
Sep 1, 2006, 03:03 AM
Update away. Those of you running illegal copies of the WWDC (torrent) will be happy to know that your IP and other system/contact info is automatically logged and forwarded to Apple Legal by the Leopard Software Update. :eek:

"Enjoyed the preview? Good. We'll be contacting you soon..."

joshysquashy
Sep 1, 2006, 03:23 AM
For some reason this bummed me out.

I guess I was hopeful that the developer preview was an old build with just enough for the developers to test their apps, and just enough cool new stuff to keep the public interested.

I was hoping that the build was 6 - 8 months old, and Apple was working on a build with all of the top secret features that was going to blow us away.

But I guess while there are obviously a few things up Apple's sleave, we've seen a good chunk of Leopard. I guess that makes sense given each release has 3 - 5 meaningful new features, and 20 or so little new nice touches.

I guesss my hope stemmed from the opportunity to slap Microsoft and Vista. Looks like Leopard is going to be a typical release.

Just because they are improving this build doesnt mean there aren't some major apps or system features they are not revealing to developers.

They could be updating another version of the OS alongside this one with extra goodness!, and the updates are most likely to be fixes based on what the devs tell them is buggy.

I think they have purposefully left stuff out of Leopard for the moment so that it is even more shocking when it is all revealed at the launch of Leopard! thats what apple does best, shocks the public with "one more thing!"

matthewroth
Sep 1, 2006, 03:24 AM
if you think that apple have enough time to speak to every one with this istalled you are wrong! they will however stop people distributing it... this has been shown many times over the past few weeks.

i am proud to say i am running 10.5 on my top end mini, and will be updating it to leopard beta V0.2

EDIT: YAY, this fixed my problem with external hard drive crashes and makes this Super Speedy!

GodBless
Sep 1, 2006, 03:58 AM
Just because they are improving this build doesnt mean there aren't some major apps or system features they are not revealing to developers.

They could be updating another version of the OS alongside this one with extra goodness!, and the updates are most likely to be fixes based on what the devs tell them is buggy.

I think they have purposefully left stuff out of Leopard for the moment so that it is even more shocking when it is all revealed at the launch of Leopard! thats what apple does best, shocks the public with "one more thing!"I have to agree. I am certain that when Steve Jobs said that there are "Top Secret" features he wasn't joking. Sure we have minor updates but that can't compete with Vista and those features aren't really good enough to be "Top Secret" after all -- how valuable to Microsoft and appealing to buyers are those small features anyway?

My assumption is that Apple will blast Vista away with new Leopard features that haven't been revealed to anyone yet -- including those developers who are currently testing Leopard -- just wait for MacWorld San Francisco (MWSF) in January.

iMikeT
Sep 1, 2006, 04:09 AM
I think this is page 1 worthy only if Apple released some new feature in Leopard.:rolleyes:

majorp
Sep 1, 2006, 04:09 AM
Update away. Those of you running illegal copies of the WWDC (torrent) will be happy to know that your IP and other system/contact info is automatically logged and forwarded to Apple Legal by the Leopard Software Update. :eek:

"Enjoyed the preview? Good. We'll be contacting you soon..."

yeah, it would only cost them $1000+ to have someone come round to my house and do something about it, well worth the 59 they would sell the end product for :rolleyes:

do they check everybodys IP, how do they know i wasn't at wwdc.

inkswamp
Sep 1, 2006, 04:28 AM
I'm hoping one of the super secret features is a completely reworked Finder. While I don't think it's a deal-breaker by any means, I have to agree with those who say that the Finder is generally sluggish in ways that it should not be. I have a Windows XP box on my desk next to my G5 and XP's windows and menus are lightning fast and immediately responsive. Further, icons and file lists are pulled up instantaneously. With the Finder on the G5, there's always that little pause or the list of files take a second or two to show up or icons take a while to load. There's no reason Apple shouldn't be equal to or better than XP's interface, but it's not. It's the one area where Apple hasn't quite nailed it.

Still, I would take OS X over XP any day, but it sure would be good news to me to hear a fully revamped Finder with all these slowdowns ironed out.

matthewroth
Sep 1, 2006, 04:41 AM
Still, I would take OS X over XP any day, but it sure would be good news to me to hear a fully revamped Finder with all these slowdowns ironed out.

Amen to that! :D

Have to admit though, they did take all the names and addresses of the Dev's that got the Beta. they would be able to identify who has an illigal copy VERY easily. the fact remains though that i live in the UK, are they realy going to scower the globe for every illigal beta!

puuukeey
Sep 1, 2006, 04:58 AM
how do they release the preview to developers and not let loose the super secret features? are all the super secret features all applications which don't need testing?

or will there be another round of betas?:confused: :confused: :confused:

matthewroth
Sep 1, 2006, 05:15 AM
how do they release the preview to developers and not let loose the super secret features? are all the super secret features all applications which don't need testing?

or will there be another round of betas?:confused: :confused: :confused:

My bet is that the GUI will be tested in the labs, there will be a few more apps put to the Dev's but not for a while yet. Apple want them to get board of spaces so they can put more atention on to the newer (SUPER SECRET) apps.

to be frank, the GUI will not be put out on any beta. this is the one thing apple dont want those pencil pushing theifs at redmond to see as it will no doubt work its way into there next relese (microsoft 2012?)

puuukeey
Sep 1, 2006, 05:20 AM
I kinda feel like we should at least have the option to not have every element of our gui bogged down with image files.

I was thinking that it would be cool if more of the UI was plain openGL and less image based. how cool (although impracticle) would it be if the entire gui was 5 channels. R, G, B, alpha, displace. Then the os could load ONE metal image, and all the sliders, buttons,wells could be smokey glass(slightly transparent, dark grey, and displaced the image behind it like a glass of water.) that would be more open gl work but less loading of images.

that would reflect the realitive increase in graphics processors comprared to regular ones.

sometimes I just wonder how quick an update to the classic interface would fly on a modern machine

PlaceofDis
Sep 1, 2006, 05:31 AM
how do they release the preview to developers and not let loose the super secret features? are all the super secret features all applications which don't need testing?

or will there be another round of betas?:confused: :confused: :confused:

they don't lose the secret features due to NDAs.

BornAgainMac
Sep 1, 2006, 05:57 AM
Microsoft is a Apple developer. I doubt the super secret features are included. When it turns Beta then the super secret features will be added and publicly exposed by Apple. My guess is November but no later than January.

realtime
Sep 1, 2006, 06:02 AM
Apple did the same thing with the DTK hardware... they released a "Software Update" version, with a letter revision to the same build #'s, and it was to enforce security and/or entrap those running the 10.4 Intel build on non-Apple P4 hardware. Get it? Apple Software Update connects to Apple servers, so they know exactly to whom/what/where their "update" is being sent and installed.... then they cross-reference those IP's against logs of ADC member logins (and this is only necessary when assuming the user submitted false info during the Leopard registration, instead of their real name/address). IP match? Boom! Gotcha.

Maybe they just want to see how many of those IP's belong to Microsoft's net. :rolleyes:

mavherzog
Sep 1, 2006, 06:06 AM
My thought/hope is that the new functionality currently under wraps is improvements to the Finder and Safari.

Digitalclips
Sep 1, 2006, 06:13 AM
they don't lose the secret features due to NDAs.


Just asking the experts ...

Is it possible Apple could release the final version with the option to initialize a drive with ZFS prior to install? Everything I have read about ZFS seems to point to it as a next logical step for Apple's OS.

zwida
Sep 1, 2006, 06:21 AM
they don't lose the secret features due to NDAs.

Well, sort of. The NDAs would hardly stop someone from surreptitiously releasing info about features on a forum. The NDAs certainly haven't stopped screen shots from being posted.... These concealed features are, as has been noted, coming in later builds, probably after they are revealed at MWSF.

dicklacara
Sep 1, 2006, 06:45 AM
Apple did the same thing with the DTK hardware... they released a "Software Update" version, with a letter revision to the same build #'s, and it was to enforce security and/or entrap those running the 10.4 Intel build on non-Apple P4 hardware. Get it? Apple Software Update connects to Apple servers, so they know exactly to whom/what/where their "update" is being sent and installed.... then they cross-reference those IP's against logs of ADC member logins (and this is only necessary when assuming the user submitted false info during the Leopard registration, instead of their real name/address). IP match? Boom! Gotcha.

Maybe they just want to see how many of those IP's belong to Microsoft's net. :rolleyes:


...unless you have a dynamic IP

matthewroth
Sep 1, 2006, 06:52 AM
Taking THIS many people to court would be a PV (public view) suicide.

I know it is protected by copyright and it is not for public use but to prosecute all these people for a beta! Not worth it

Sharkus
Sep 1, 2006, 07:00 AM
Even though people may be illegally using the dev preview of 10.5, how much testing are they actually doing? Developers, yeah, we're actually testing, to make sure our products are compatible, but normal users, I doubt it.

Having said this though, I think there might be a few devs out there who have downloaded the preview illegally. The reason for this being that Apple has *still* not put the dev preview up on the Developer Connection site. Now I'm expecting we'll see a dvd in the next ADC seed mailing, but it's a little unfair to not have it downloadable. There are various reasons why developers may not be able to attend WWDC and they are being penalised for not being there by not being able to legally obtain a copy of the software released there.

It's a small gripe I know, as it's not as if 10.5 is released and we're waiting to test with the GM, it's the first seed release. But it's always nice to know from the get-go whether your software is going to need a minor tweak or a complete rewrite to make it work with the new OS.

tny
Sep 1, 2006, 07:15 AM
Just asking the experts ...

Is it possible Apple could release the final version with the option to initialize a drive with ZFS prior to install? Everything I have read about ZFS seems to point to it as a next logical step for Apple's OS.

I'd guess about 40% chance of that (which is actually pretty good; the odds that they'll release a final version with the option to initialize a drive with NTFS are around 0%). I'd like to see it - I have seen the future, and it's ZFS.

coumerelli
Sep 1, 2006, 07:38 AM
...unless you have a dynamic IP


...Which your ISP has kept a record of that YOU had that dynamic IP at a specific date and time. Your ISP knows when and for how long they hand out each IP address. It's called record keeping. I know which user on my LAN at my business has which DHCP given IP. It's simple historical data.

Think RIAA and all the John/Jane Doe lawsuits

tvguru
Sep 1, 2006, 08:42 AM
I bet safari feels faster. :rolleyes: :D

guzhogi
Sep 1, 2006, 08:51 AM
I hope the super secret features aren't already in the preview (or at least disabled). If they were active, I'm sure people would be saying "wow that's a cool new feature!" Since I haven't heard any of that, and the secret stuff is active, then I guess Apple's making a mountain out of a molehill.

maverick808
Sep 1, 2006, 08:53 AM
...Which your ISP has kept a record of that YOU had that dynamic IP at a specific date and time. Your ISP knows when and for how long they hand out each IP address. It's called record keeping. I know which user on my LAN at my business has which DHCP given IP. It's simple historical data.

Think RIAA and all the John/Jane Doe lawsuits

...Unless you spoof your MAC address, which is extremely easy to do.* Additionally, a lot of ISPs refuse to give out logs, some don't keep logs for long.* I'm on a university network just now and I know our university only keeps logs for a week.

You can also easily just log in to any open access point and download from there if you don't want your real IP address to be known.

Peace
Sep 1, 2006, 08:54 AM
Don't kid yourself about this "super secret" stuff.Leopard needs some hard work and Apple doesn't care who has it as long as bugs are sent in.Remember the Developer kits?.I had one.The Intel O/S X wasn't supposed to be on any system other than those.
Here comes OSX86Project.org and a couple others OPENLY flaunting installing it on PeeCees.Giving instructions and everything.Apple did nothing about that.They won't do anything about the folks that have it now other than their own employees which gives them bad PR.

153957
Sep 1, 2006, 09:07 AM
Apple has a history of that... making their OS'es run faster than the previous one on the same hardware. At least that's what my experience has been with Panther, Tiger and Leopard preview.

Or they make the first releases fast, and then with each minor upgrade slow the system down a tiny bit and then when the next major one comes around everything seems faster the before..

or it might have to do with system caches and other things that are not yet bogged down because of extensive usage..

Some_Big_Spoon
Sep 1, 2006, 09:09 AM
Update is causing nothing but problems for me. Machine slows to a crawl, and I'm having password and start up volume selection issues.

I'll probably wipe, then reinstall and not apply the updater.

shawnce
Sep 1, 2006, 09:10 AM
Nope. Nothing has changed in the UI and no noteable new features. As far as the super secret Leopard features, dongmin, they still remain super secret although the few new features in the preview are quite handy and have already become "How did I ever live without this?" kind of valuable to me.

I haven't noticed any major changes so far since the update.

I wish folks would honor their NDA so we don't lose the privilege of getting developer preview releases this earlier.

joebells
Sep 1, 2006, 09:18 AM
well apple did do some stuff about osx86project.

But anyway it would be nearly impossibly to track and go after someone with the semi widely distributed wwdc beta as people are allowed to install it on laptops for one so that right there leads to a multitude of different ip's from just going from hotspot to hotspot and two I can't imagine apple had people write down their ip's when they signed up for wwdc and many times you do have a changing ip so that whole argument is out the window.

Now if apple really wanted to go after the leakers they could have made it all download based and embedded a serial number in the download corresponding to the adc membership and a counter appended to the end. Then when they saw multiple copies getting the update all with the same serial number then they could go after the originating adc membership holder. But otherwise they cannot track you based on your IP thats just foolish to think as they can't determine legal copy from illegal copy.

For the record I do not have it but I wouldn't feel worried about getting it.

hmg
Sep 1, 2006, 09:53 AM
So when will us ADC select developers get our hands on a copy, that's what I'd like to know..?

Yes, that's what I finally paid my $500 for: to get the head start this time around. WWDC from Australia is just a "little" too much for me.

Peace
Sep 1, 2006, 09:55 AM
Yes, that's what I finally paid my $500 for: to get the head start this time around. WWDC from Australia is just a "little" too much for me.


You will get nowhere explaining that to Apple.They don't seem to care.

kingtj
Sep 1, 2006, 10:03 AM
For starters, what if I went to a public library or Internet cafe and downloaded updates or a torrent? What if I stumbled onto someone's unsecured wireless router and borrowed their connection to do it? The ISP knows they handed out an IP to a given subscriber at a certain time, but they *can't* prove WHO downloaded specific files based on that.

Heck, just recently, I fixed some wi-fi problems for a customer. His Linksys router worked great until 2 weeks ago, when his computers suddenly had problems connecting reliably. Turns out, his SSID of "linksys" matched someone across the street who also bought the same model of router, leaving their default SSID of "linksys" in place too. His PCs saw two devices with good signal strength having identical names and were alternating between using his and using his neighbor's router. (Neither person had WEP or WPA encryption set up.)


...Which your ISP has kept a record of that YOU had that dynamic IP at a specific date and time. Your ISP knows when and for how long they hand out each IP address. It's called record keeping. I know which user on my LAN at my business has which DHCP given IP. It's simple historical data.

Think RIAA and all the John/Jane Doe lawsuits

tickmo
Sep 1, 2006, 10:14 AM
I hope the super secret features aren't already in the preview (or at least disabled). If they were active, I'm sure people would be saying "wow that's a cool new feature!" Since I haven't heard any of that, and the secret stuff is active, then I guess Apple's making a mountain out of a molehill.

I think there are some clues in the Dev build that point the way to the kind of 'cool' you allude to. While the face of the OS is the same for now, Apple has put the parts in place to either A) pop a new level of GUI goodness into 10.5 or B) allow developers to do it themselves.
The key to all this is Core Animation, which may end up being the biggest announcement at WWDC this year. Core Animation enhancements to the application Help menu, for example, indicate a totally new GUI direction. Floating 3D arrows point out features as you browse them with your mouse. The Time Machine interface similarly shows there are a lot of new and interesting GUI possibilities thanks to Core Animation.

Billy Boo Bob
Sep 1, 2006, 10:48 AM
I think there are some clues in the Dev build that point the way to the kind of 'cool' you allude to. While the face of the OS is the same for now, Apple has put the parts in place to either A) pop a new level of GUI goodness into 10.5 or B) allow developers to do it themselves.
The key to all this is Core Animation, which may end up being the biggest announcement at WWDC this year. Core Animation enhancements to the application Help menu, for example, indicate a totally new GUI direction. Floating 3D arrows point out features as you browse them with your mouse. The Time Machine interface similarly shows there are a lot of new and interesting GUI possibilities thanks to Core Animation.
I don't remember... Is Core Animation based on OpenGL?

MacBoobsPro
Sep 1, 2006, 11:16 AM
Update away. Those of you running illegal copies of the WWDC (torrent) will be happy to know that your IP and other system/contact info is automatically logged and forwarded to Apple Legal by the Leopard Software Update. :eek:

"Enjoyed the preview? Good. We'll be contacting you soon..."


Hehe... is that you Steve? :D

shawnce
Sep 1, 2006, 11:17 AM
I don't remember... Is Core Animation based on OpenGL? The would be information under NDA still.

deconai
Sep 1, 2006, 11:25 AM
I am amazed to recently discover Mac owners pay more on average to keep the most current OS running on their box, even though OS X is cheaper (by about $70) than comparative Windows releases. This is, of course, due to the release of a new version of OS X every 18 months or so compared to the ridiculous periods between Windows versions.

Bravo to you Apple for creating and meeting consumer demand while increasing your profit! This is a great stock to own right now. It's rated as Buy at $75 and yet it still trades for around $67-$68. I still don't know why more people don't hold on to this stock.

slb
Sep 1, 2006, 12:07 PM
I am amazed to recently discover Mac owners pay more on average to keep the most current OS running on their box, even though OS X is cheaper (by about $70) than comparative Windows releases.

Spending $400 on Vista Ultimate Edition makes up the difference. :) Although the operative phrase here is "most current OS running on their box"--the most current Windows is six years old, so if people want to complain that it costs more money to keep up with modern OS updates than it does to have no major OS updates at all for over half a decade, that's not exactly something I consider a negative.

BWhaler
Sep 1, 2006, 12:15 PM
This is, of course, due to the release of a new version of OS X every 18 months or so compared to the ridiculous periods between Windows versions.


Agreed.

shelterpaw
Sep 1, 2006, 12:21 PM
I have a Windows XP box on my desk next to my G5 and XP's windows and menus are lightning fast and immediately responsive.

There have been a few ways to increase the speed of the menu's. One was plist edit where you just changed a value and it made menu's pup-up instantly. I can't seem to find the how to, but there's one somewhere. Maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about and can post a link.

shelterpaw
Sep 1, 2006, 12:24 PM
Spending $400 on Vista Ultimate Edition makes up the difference. :) Although the operative phrase here is "most current OS running on their box"--the most current Windows is six years old, so if people want to complain that it costs more money to keep up with modern OS updates than it does to have no major OS updates at all for over half a decade, that's not exactly something I consider a negative. I've been using Vista pre-RC1 for a few days and besides some graphics updates it feels just like XP. The gadgets are not quite as nice as os x. Beyond that, Areo is super slow when you have several applications open and to run it you need 1 GB of ram or that's what they recommend. Vista is a resource hog. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice update, but it has a long way to go.

inkhead
Sep 1, 2006, 01:31 PM
When the hell is Apple going to seed leopard to us select developers? Also an update of the WWDC videos would be nice. It sucks when you get hospitalized and can't recover in TIME to go to WWDC.

The least Apple could do is treat developers who are excited and PAY for select accounts (myself included) with a little respect and post some of the leopard stuff. geeze.

If you are an Apple developer unable to leave your country or travel to the united states and physically attend the conference in San Francisco you are pretty much screwed.

It annoys me that I pay for this treatment, yet Microsoft is more than happy to release all kinds of pre beta stuff to me just for signing up as a developer.

Apple TAKE CARE of your paying developers. Geeze.

inkhead
Sep 1, 2006, 01:33 PM
Actually a vast majority of normal mac owners (not the geeks and fans who visit the mac sites) don't update their OS as often as you think. It's nice to know that for the same price of 1 copy of Windows XP Pro, you can get a 5-lisenced family pack of Mac OS X.

THINK ABOUT THAT!

[QUOTE=deconai]I am amazed to recently discover Mac owners pay more on average to keep the most current OS running on their box, even though OS X is cheaper (by about $70) than comparative Windows releases. This is, of course, due to the release of a new version of OS X every 18 months or so compared to the ridiculous periods between Windows versions.

Agreed.

hayesk
Sep 1, 2006, 02:27 PM
When the hell is Apple going to seed leopard to us select developers? Also an update of the WWDC videos would be nice. It sucks when you get hospitalized and can't recover in TIME to go to WWDC.

Why are you asking here? Why not call Apple developer relations and ask them?


It annoys me that I pay for this treatment, yet Microsoft is more than happy to release all kinds of pre beta stuff to me just for signing up as a developer.


Microsoft is also more than happy to charge through the teeth for decent developer tools too.

tickmo
Sep 1, 2006, 02:32 PM
I don't remember... Is Core Animation based on OpenGL?

I am certain that it is 3d accelerated anyway, that Core Animation falls under Quartz.. i may be wrong.

Jimmni
Sep 1, 2006, 03:43 PM
yeah, it would only cost them $1000+ to have someone come round to my house and do something about it, well worth the 59 they would sell the end product for :rolleyes:

do they check everybodys IP, how do they know i wasn't at wwdc.

Exactly - why would they bother? I'm not sharing it. Plus, I paid for Jaguar (well, the computer it came on), I paid for Panther, I paid for Tiger and I'll 100% certainly be paying for Leopard when it comes out. I want to play with the new features every so often, and get myself all excited about what's to come. How exactly am I hurting Apple? They'd be fools to drive away a long time and dedicated customer by throwing legal issues at me.

digitalbiker
Sep 1, 2006, 05:00 PM
I'm hoping one of the super secret features is a completely reworked Finder.


I agree Finder is slower than a snail. Many Mac fans live in denial about the s-l--o--w f----i-----n-------d--------e----r but it is a joke compared to XP. I love OS X and it would be easy to impress others with it's elegance if it weren't for the S-L--O---W F----I-----N------D-------E--------R.

Great! The pop-up menu on my documents folder in the dock just opened. Bye Bye.

inkhead
Sep 1, 2006, 06:01 PM
I already took it up with Developer Relations aka dev support, they said sorry soon. I actually got the disc anyway from my co-worker who went to WWDC, but I'm annoyed because I work with other select developers on a project, and I'd like to start checking out documentation on core animation, and some of the new features for a new application we want to build

Why are you asking here? Why not call Apple developer relations and ask them?

I'm not going to say Microsoft is better than Apple as far as development, because XCode rocks, however MS is like Dell.... You can compare retail price of a Dell and a Mac and the mac will be cheeper however Dell always has some discount coupon. MS does the same sort of thing, if you are a Student you can get full on access to beta builds from day one, like you were Adobe. MS always has some discount, or deal you can get for their premium tools. Granted I don't think that's a good strategy for an OS, (great way to have features stolen) but being an Apple select developer (i assume you are too) the login is Underwhelming compared to what you get with MS. I wish Apple had more mailing lists, forums, private stuff for people who paid. For example anyone can have access to the cocoa-dev mailing list, which is a good thing, but if say I wanted to discuss core-animation with other developers, and Apple programmers, I'm not allowed to do this, and there is no private lists for select developers to discuss with each other.

I think in general apple needs to provide more ways for the paying developers to communicate with each other. I've learned everything I know about XCode and programming from the mailing lists, I'd love apple to have private web based discussion forums for paying developers.

Microsoft is also more than happy to charge through the teeth for decent developer tools too.

inkhead
Sep 1, 2006, 06:05 PM
The finder is being rewritten. This was posted and discussed several places (i think on thinksecret offsite forums. I haven't installed leopard, and I can't comment on it anyway because of NDA, but from stuff on the web, the finder has been rewritten from scratch and it appears that brushed metal is just temporary.

I agree Finder is slower than a snail. Many Mac fans live in denial about the s-l--o--w f----i-----n-------d--------e----r but it is a joke compared to XP. I love OS X and it would be easy to impress others with it's elegance if it weren't for the S-L--O---W F----I-----N------D-------E--------R.

Great! The pop-up menu on my documents folder in the dock just opened. Bye Bye.

jakeDude
Sep 1, 2006, 07:41 PM
I already took it up with Developer Relations aka dev support, they said sorry soon. I actually got the disc anyway from my co-worker who went to WWDC, but I'm annoyed because I work with other select developers on a project, and I'd like to start checking out documentation on core animation, ...


This is the first year that I went to WWDC and I am a ADC Select developer like you. However, the difference is I had to pay 100% out of pocket to go. My employer does not use Macs and I had to do it on my own.* At the conference, I met a lot of developers whose companies paid for the trip and they stayed in the Hyatts ($200 a night).. My gf and I stayed at the crappy hotel by 7th street which was in a unsafe part of SOMA plus I used a week of my own PTO etc..*

It sure was alot of money ~$2300.* I sure could have done alot with that but I used it for my education and check out WWDC.* It really adds alot of value to the conference to really get the new bits. * I do not think it is fair to wait for the general rollout to ADC if you are charging so much for the conference. *This year, there was not a lot of new things besides Leopard.. Leopard was the star show and only partially revealed. Therefore the revealed parts and Leopard sessions were the key points and those were pretty tight lipped and the mostly the value of going.

So,* why should you be able to see the sessions and get the same seed three weeks later? *Its not fair to independent developers like me and gives my project a jump start against potential competetors like you..* **

I skipped last two years WWDC and waited until Tiger was ADC seeded and have been watching the 2005 sessions without going to WWDC the same as you..* So, i have been on both sides of the fence.* Once you pay for WWDC yourself, then you really understand that its right to let the WWDC get the first drink from the water fountain and drink for awhile.

-JakeDude*

jakeDude
Sep 1, 2006, 07:45 PM
correction.. I think it is fair to make ADC Select peeps wait for the seed.* Also, the asterisks were not added by me.. Must file a bug..*

inkhead
Sep 1, 2006, 11:38 PM
Jake:

Please don't assume. First of all, I pay for 4 active ADC memberships. I usually buy about 4 WWDC tickets. This year as every year, I bought my own WWDC ticket. My employer (myself) is mean ;-) However this year for the first time in 5 years I wasn't able to attend because of knee surgery recovery running longer than expected. I planned my surgery around WWDC.

So let me get this right? You are saying that the sessions shouldn't be online because you are poor and don't want people who get their wwdc tickets for free to get the jump on you.

SO WHAT about all the PEOPLE POORER than you who can't afford WWDC? So you are saying they don't deserve a chance to learn leopard?

What you are saying is a double standard!

Regardless, my issue isn't money, and the WWDC sessions are always put up online, which they will be shortly. It would just be nice if Apple got on the ball.

I realize you don't want the session videos online because the college student who has $498, and overdraws his bank account to get ADC select, might get the jump on you, and since you EVEN though you paid it out of pocket were able to afford $2300, you are using this to say that more money should buy more?, but not really?

Think about what your saying.. claiming to be poor, but it only works as long as you aren't the one cut off.

either way I can afford any Mac, or Apple product I want, and development is a passion for me not a requirement to survive. I don't need to work, I want to work. But saying that your not going to be able to compete with somebody like me with unlimited funds... isn't true. Mac OS X is the best platform to develop for if you want to level the playing field. You notice many of the Apple Design Awards went to SMALL companies? On the mac platform, many, many small companies, and one man shows are making very good money! You have just as much chance as me, even if I have more resources money, machines, and people. It's easy to innovate.



This is the first year that I went to WWDC and I am a ADC Select developer like you. However, the difference is I had to pay 100% out of pocket to go. My employer does not use Macs and I had to do it on my own.* At the conference, I met a lot of developers whose companies paid for the trip and they stayed in the Hyatts ($200 a night).. My gf and I stayed at the crappy hotel by 7th street which was in a unsafe part of SOMA plus I used a week of my own PTO etc..*

It sure was alot of money ~$2300.* I sure could have done alot with that but I used it for my education and check out WWDC.* It really adds alot of value to the conference to really get the new bits. * I do not think it is fair to wait for the general rollout to ADC if you are charging so much for the conference. *This year, there was not a lot of new things besides Leopard.. Leopard was the star show and only partially revealed. Therefore the revealed parts and Leopard sessions were the key points and those were pretty tight lipped and the mostly the value of going.

So,* why should you be able to see the sessions and get the same seed three weeks later? *Its not fair to independent developers like me and gives my project a jump start against potential competetors like you..* **

I skipped last two years WWDC and waited until Tiger was ADC seeded and have been watching the 2005 sessions without going to WWDC the same as you..* So, i have been on both sides of the fence.* Once you pay for WWDC yourself, then you really understand that its right to let the WWDC get the first drink from the water fountain and drink for awhile.

-JakeDude*

inkhead
Sep 1, 2006, 11:40 PM
Also to the best of my knowledge Leopard is NOT on premier accounts yet either, know is any of the sessions.

jakeDude
Sep 2, 2006, 02:35 AM
Inkhead, you make a good point about the ADA. **In the world of software, it recently has been the little guys that have been walking all over the larger companies (Paypal, Skype, Digg, MySpace, YouTube etc..) etc..**

Competition is great too. *I am very happy that you are in a sucessful Mac oriented business. We are a community and facing hard times. We both have to work together to get our marketshare up so we can get more shelf space. The amount of non-game software space is very dismal.* To buy a $2500 desktop Mac pro and see very little shelf units can be a hard purchase versus going into Best Buy and seeing rows of PC software.*

Back to the core issue, *money.. ***XCode and GCC and Interface builder are free..* Obviously someone like Delicious Monster or OmniGroup has tons of resources, they can get free Interns and have the connections.* Wil and Ken Case were presenters this year.* *Wil said in his student talk, Delicious made $54000 in profit the first day..* *

So, where does that leave independent shops like us?* I want to kick Delicious Monster's butt bad at the 2007 ADA as Wil said they are presenting Version 2 of Delicious Library.. Stuff like OmniPlan is coming out..*

The reality:*
*I am a nobody at the conference. But I have a dream and one idea that I think is fresh enough to compete and possibly sell. Its all up to me to implement it and ship it. Steve Jobs said - "Real artists ship."* *Part of the problem is my fault and some of it is not.. *The reality for my situation is obviously better than some and worse off than others.*

As developers we need:
1) *development environment (XCode, IB, etc), APIs, sample code and docs
2) *time
3) *skill*
4) *customers or audience
5) *ideas , features, a purpose for the applications / systems

The only issues that are currently variable between you, me , and general Mac developer population (750K+ according to the keynote)* are 1 and 2.
#3 is based on #1 and #2 and we are all coding to the same APIs here using the same tools.

* * I work for a lavery large insurance company and idiot PHB and alot of time after working as corporate drone can't work on my independent app when I come home.. I'm done from being in the office all day doing .Net development or maintaing others crappy code.* Plus its just me.. I am the only mac developer I know.* I did meet some at the conference, but they were from IT depts or large companies like Watcom.* Not many people want to talk to me at WWDC, I look boring and didnt have any company on my badge. *I would argue that anybody can have the same skill if given enough time to work on a problem.* Alot of successful products such as Delicious Library or this years ADA winners like Line Form were simpler apps compared to something like Modo.

So,* how do I get more time?*
*1)* I took off another week of PTO so I can sit at home and bang away on my computer all week. Thats a very limited resource unless I want to quit job and live on rice on beans and find a part time job 3rd shift somewhere so I can code more.

*2)* Use Apple technologies to the fullest such as Core Animation and QTKit and AppKit and ObjC.. *I do not have time to figure out how to get NSViews on OpenGL views for example, so i will just use the provided documentation.. Im using XCode 3.0, new stuff in ObjC..

A good application is like a good song.* It can be played unplugged on acoustic guitar or electric guitar.* Between Tiger and Leopard is not as wide as the marketing suggests.* Some applications do not need a glossy Core Animation interface. Animations can be done in others ways.. Look at Omnidazzle or FrontRow or use OpenGL stuff on Tiger.* Look at Photobooth.. This is such a simple application, but it works.

Reading this forum.. *I live in Austrailia, I have bad injury/medical condition, I am a student etc, too poor etc.. * yes, it sucks!! Trying to make a living as a software developer nowdays is not easy.* I hear you brother.. Everyone thinks they are a developer just because they can write a web page or have XCode or Visual Studio installed or programmed a couple hello world apps in VB or Java.*

I need the tools like Core Animation ASAP and ObjC features so I can spend more time adding features to my app.* In reality, we really only have until late Spring to get our apps ready for te release of Leopard and until maybe late May until submission for ADA. **That gives us maybe 6 months. *

Back to the money issue..* Apple cannot give away Leopard seeds for free.. *It eats into Tiger and Leopard sales too much. It breaks too many Applecare when people screw up installing Leopard etc.. Preview seed blew up my Tiger partition i had.. I had to do a clean install :( * Microsoft doesnt do that even.. you have to buy MSDN for that..* There has to be a fee for the conference.* It costs alot to setup and for the 1000 engineers on site etc.. *If the fee isn't high enough, then 20,000 people would show up. I felt WWDC was not code specific enough as it is.. Too many IT tracks and less code samples and sample code released.*Too many people steal Apple's ideas.. Apple spent alot of time at the Keynote going over this.. **So, Apple this year decide to help developers by giving us a seed and having* alot of Leopard sessions and exclusive Leopard documentation.. A lot of documentation is not on the seed and exclusive for WWDC attendees.***


So, I want everybody to use Leopard feature Z, because it helps Apple because Leopard makes Apple money.. i want more people to buy macs to buy my product, and it pushes for faster hardware (we all love new Apple hardware).

There is a fine line with what Apple provides.. last year (2005) it was Developer Transition kit.. there wasnt any way to compile/test for Intel unless you had that and was like $1000 until the first Intel based comptuer came out.* Before that it was the same story.. Tiger seed given out at WWDC 2004.. so no way to do Core Data or Core Video unless you had that.*
There is always going to be dangling carrots like new CPUS or OS versions.* Apple is extremely secretive, they didnt annouce even that they were giving out the seed until it leaked out the day before the conference.
*
To answer your question.. what about people that can't afford even the ADC Select? People poorer than myself.* I have ADC Select..* You are asking to let 750K people download Leopard the way Microsoft has done with Vista RC1.*

My answer.. That doesnt help me with issue #1 and #2 above that I talked about.. Now everyone has all the same tools/docs (unless you are top company like Aspyr, you will always know more NDA stuff) .. So #1, is balanced and drops off.* leaving time #2 as the only difference between me and the other companies. My skill is largely based on time, because I am new to the APIs (partly why I went to WWDC to learn more about QTKit etc..)

Applications will be won based on time alone.. Small shops like me who are doing this on PTO and nights/weekends will lose..* I need all the help I can do to win the ADA against products from OmniGroup, Deleicious Monster and you and others.. These companies have the seed to.. But really helps me out by letting me catch up agaisnt the unknowns small shops like the guy that wrote F-Script (Phillipe ???) or that Line Form App..*

If I can go to WWDC sessions to learn and walk away with beter tools and APIs its awesome.. It helps me and Apple benefit.. It just sucks for the people who cannot commit and have to wait 4-8 weeks for the same stuff.* That will be me next year, i am not going to be able to go next year.. I am in the same boat and hear you brother.* I am just the lttle guy here competing against these serial ADA winners....*

Sorry for the lecture..* I loved your feedback.




*



* * **

*

**

Just Jake
Sep 2, 2006, 07:55 PM
I've had my aging 17" 1 ghz powerbook for a long time now. Left audio stopped working about one and a half years ago, or that is when I noticed it. I wasn't prudent enough to have an extended applecare plan, and left sound didn't really matter, so I never took my powerbook in.

After the recent Leopard update, my Powerbook has once again been outputting stereo sound!:D I noticed it while watching the new Mac ads.

50548
Sep 3, 2006, 08:58 AM
I agree Finder is slower than a snail. Many Mac fans live in denial about the s-l--o--w f----i-----n-------d--------e----r but it is a joke compared to XP. I love OS X and it would be easy to impress others with it's elegance if it weren't for the S-L--O---W F----I-----N------D-------E--------R.

Great! The pop-up menu on my documents folder in the dock just opened. Bye Bye.

Sorry, you don't use XP and OS X, then...XP is much slower and a simple piece of crap in regards to multitasking and multithreading...OS X is MUCH faster at that, and can deal with multiple windows, eye candy and different tasks WAAAAAAAAAY better than XP...and yes, I use both (XP for work, OS X at home).

advorak
Sep 5, 2006, 05:12 AM
Apple has a history of that... making their OS'es run faster than the previous one on the same hardware. At least that's what my experience has been with Panther, Tiger and Leopard preview.

When I bought my Powerbook G4 3 years ago, it came with Panther, then I upgraded to Tiger and it seemed to run much faster... much more responsive. After its hard drive died, I sold it and repaced it with a MacBook Pro with Tiger pre-installed and now that I am running on Leopard, it's running just as fast and sometimes even faster than Tiger. I am very pleased.*:)

Of what minimal programming experience I have, I was concerned by this code I found in one of the system startup scripts:

setmaxcomputerspeed(.22113*MacOSXVersion);

just being silly... :D

--Andy