finally switching from 35mm... [Archive]

wmmk

Sep 1, 2006, 11:19 PM

atari1356

Sep 2, 2006, 12:09 AM

i've had a great time in the darkroom. a great time with B&W negatives. i've had a great time with my old nikon 35mm SLR. it's time to go digital. i need to keep everything well under $1000 if possible. all i want is 6 MP, a nice all purpose lense (i'll want to get a decent macro and telephoto a year or two down the line), manual aperture settings, manual shutter speed settings, manual zoom. i want to get a good blend of affordability and quality. what's the cheapest i can go for a camera that meets all of my requirements and will last me for 5-10 years?

EDIT: i also want something that will make sense to a person used to 35mm cameras, like me.

If you already have Nikon lenses from your SLR, then I'm pretty sure you can use them on a Nikon Digital SLR (although with older lenses you may have to focus manually, or lose other features).

There's some info here (or do a Google search for "nikon lens compatibility"):
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/nikortek.htm

The Nikon DSLR's in your price range would be (prices from amazon.com):
D50 - around $550 for just the body... or $650 with 18-55mm lens
D70s - around $700 for the body... or $875 with 18-70mm lens
D80 - around $1000 for the body

Here's a comparison of the three camera's specs (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?method=sidebyside&cameras=nikon_d50%2Cnikon_d70s%2Cnikon_d80&show=all) with links to some more info.

Or, Canon also makes great DSLR cameras... the just announced 400D comes in at $800 (no lens) or $900 (18-55mm lens):
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082416canoneos400drebelxti.asp

wmmk

Sep 2, 2006, 01:05 AM

are there any canons in the range of the nikon D50? i will have to buy my own lense as the camera i am currently is actually my grandma's, and though she let's me use it, i'm pretty sure she wold like her lenses getting swapped around to other cameras. part of the reason I'm in the market for a camera is that she's thinking about getting back into photography herself, and probably will need the nikon back.
are there any other respectable but reasonably priced DSLR manufacturer's?

balofagus

Sep 2, 2006, 05:42 AM

Have a look at Pentax. They just released a new model -- the K100D. It incorporates Shake Reduction technology in the body meaning it is available for any lens. The K100D is 6mp and when paired with the 18-55mm kit lens it costs $629.95 (shop around, I bought mine up here in Canada so I don't now what it's going for elsewhere.

This camera is compatible with EVERY lens made for Pentax SLR cameras...ever. You will of course need an adaptor for the old screw mount types and will lose some functionality with the older K-Mounts but these old lenses can be found aplenty on sites like eBay. Pentax is not an obscure little company, they have been making cameras for a very long time...they just lagged a bit coming into the digital era.

Whatever your choice is, good luck!

Sean B

Abstract

Sep 2, 2006, 07:29 AM

I'd stick with Nikon. ;)

If you're just going after a good everyday lens, the 18-70 mm lens that comes with the D70s kit is supposed to be very good. :)

If you get a Canon, try getting a 20D. The 350D is much smaller and lighter than what you're likely used to. Sounds great, but I don't find this necessarily attractive in a camera. However, some people do, so you'll need to go to a store and hold all the cameras first. :)

The Pentax K100D is a lot of bang for your buck. I'm sure they have great lenses, and Pentax camera bodies are supposed to be fantastic, but since they're not as big in digital photography as Canon or Nikon, it's going to be a bit harder to find Pentax lenses. However, you can always get 3rd party lenses from Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina. They make lenses with the K-mount as well, so it's usually easy to find lenses for your Pentax from these companies. Some of the lenses they offer are just as good, slightly worse, or even slightly better than what Canon and Nikon has to offer (they are usually a tad slower at focusing, though :o ).

Oh, and while you can use older lenses on digital bodies, I don't think they're supposed to be as good for digital because some of the light reflects off the sensor, then reflects off the inside face of the lens glass, and then back towards the sensor, which means you'll likely get lower contrast or something. Wait, is it contrast that goes down because of stuff like that? My Medical Imaging professor would kill me if he found out I couldn't figure it out. :eek: :o

wmmk

Sep 2, 2006, 11:22 AM

wmmk

Sep 2, 2006, 03:36 PM

by the way, what is the difference between the 3 pentax cams? they're all 6.0 MP, and the pentax site doesn't go into much, if any, detail about the differences between the cameras. im assuming that the K100D is the nicest, as it costs $100 more than the two others. at the moment, i think that the cameras which I'm looking most seriously at are the 3 pentax models and the D50. if i hear enough good things about it, i may bring the rebel xt back into serious consideration.

extraextra

Sep 2, 2006, 04:11 PM

hmmmm...
i've done some research, and here's what I've found.
cameras in my price range:
canon digital rebel XT
nikon D50
Olympus Evolt E-500
Olympus E-1
Fujifilm FinePix S9000
Pentax K100D
Pentax K110D
Pentax *ist DL

which of these is going to last longest? which will have the best lenses available for reasonable prices?

I think they'll all last the same amount of time. I'm not sure what the shutter life is for the others, the XT has been quoted as anywhere between 50,000-100,000. The XTi has been officially quoted as 100,000, so I don't think the XT is too far below it (if at all).

You can check dpreview.com for comparasions between cameras, (they have a nifty "side-by-side" feature where you can see how one camera compares to the other). The K100D and K110D are the same camera, aren't they? It might be a regional thing or something, I have no idea.

Try not to get cheap lenses, they generally have poorer image quality (there are exceptions like the Canon 50mm f/1.8)). There are numerous 3rd party lenses like the Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 and Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8 which for around $300 make a great lens (and a great kit lens replacement). They have really good image quality and the large aperture is a nice bonus. I don't know much about Olympus and Pentax, but Canon and Nikon have a wide array of lenses at comparable prices. I THINK Canon lenses may be a few dollars cheaper overall, but I'm not sure.

balofagus

Sep 2, 2006, 05:47 PM

There is a difference between the three Pentax cameras. The *istDL is the previous model, its on sale at a lot of places so as to clear room for the new K series. The K100D and K110D are similar but harbor one major difference. The K100D has Shake Reduction technology incorporated into the body of the camera allowing it to be used on all lenses (no need for Image Stabilized lenses). This feature is debated, some say that with the IS in the lenses, image quality is higher but when incorprated with the body, lenses are cheaper. The K110D does NOT have the SR feature. All three cameras share the same image sensor but the new K series has a better JPEG processor and other features and upgrades.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, before the K100D and K110D, there was the *istDS and the *istDL (stupid names, who knows what they were thinking). The DL is the lower quality of the two with a different focusing system and less features. The DL used penta-mirror and the DS used penta-prism however the better penta-prism system isn't found in either of the new ones. There are rumors that this feature is being saved for Pentaxs next camera (name rumored as K10D) which will have a new 10mp sensor and will be released sometime in September. There are even more vague rumors of an even higher quality camera (read: K1D) but I don't know much about it.

Abstract, I haven't read about this problem with the older lenses. I hope it doesn't cause much harm because my mom's 20 year old SMC Pentax-M 1:2 50mm take such nice pictures and I just love using it. Would this sort of problem not be warned about? All Pentax websites say the camera is "compatible with any Pentax lens ever made"; it mustn't be such a huge problem...or is it?

EDIT #2: This site (http://www.pentaxslr.com/home) has better information about the K100D and K110D as well as the lenses developed specifically for the digital bodies if you want to read some more about them

milozauckerman

Sep 2, 2006, 06:31 PM

The K110D has a built-in anti-shake function that the K100D is lacking.

Personally, I would look for a used D70 or D70s (or the Canon equivalent) on the market - a bit sturdier and more fully-featured than the Rebel or D50, meets your megapixel demands.

bousozoku

Sep 2, 2006, 07:06 PM

wmmk

Sep 3, 2006, 12:51 AM

Ask again about the middle of the month. Photokina in Köln is the photographic show and will have all sorts of new equipment.

Since you don't really have a camera or legacy, you have many possible choices.
true. i mean, i have a camera, i just don't own it:D
will prices on the D70 and 'canon equivalent' be lowered?

milozauckerman, i believe you mean the K100D has a built in anti shake feature that the the K110D is lacking. do you think that the pentax cams are as good as a D70 or at least comprable?

milozauckerman

Sep 3, 2006, 01:38 AM

They gave the higher number to the lesser model? Wacky.

I couldn't really say as to quality. The D70/D70s is nice enough for a mid-level DSLR but I haven't looked at a Pentax autofocus SLR (digital or film) in years.

bousozoku

Sep 3, 2006, 01:39 AM

true. i mean, i have a camera, i just don't own it:D
will prices on the D70 and 'canon equivalent' be lowered?

milozauckerman, i believe you mean the K100D has a built in anti shake feature that the the K110D is lacking. do you think that the pentax cams are as good as a D70 or at least comprable?

If you have to give it back, you don't have a camera. :D

I'd suggest that you go with something other than Canon or Nikon but the majority of people here will drone it out that those are the only two choices you have.

Even Sigma is about to introduce a new camera, though theirs takes a little more work than others since the current cameras don't do JPEGs at all.

When I bought my Olympus E-1, I was looking at:

Olympus
Pentax
Nikon
and anything else that was reasonable at that time, in that order.

Nothing much has changed, even though everything with technology has changed.

Abstract

Sep 3, 2006, 06:20 AM

I'd wait until Photokina, and maybe for the new Sigma model to arrive, along with official tests with the Canon 400D. There may even be a new D50 replacement coming soon. Since major camera updates don't happen as often as computer updates, I'd likely wait for at least Photokina, and for the 400D and Sigma cameras to appear.

And while I did recommend that you stick with Nikon, Olympus, Canon, and Pentax all make good cameras, and you'll get great photos from all of them.

imnotatfault

Sep 3, 2006, 01:05 PM

Also check www.nikonusa.com for potential camera rebates. The D50 & D70 kits almost always have some mail-in rebates to save you anywhere from $50-$200+ depending on packages/lenses.

wmmk

Sep 4, 2006, 06:43 PM

i just went to ritz camera, and the guy said that the pentax K100D is a great camera, but pentax is in danger of going out of business in the next 10 years, whereas canon and nikon will be around forever, so getting a pentax may mean never being able to upgrade lenses after a certain period of time. he also said that canon and nikon have a better selection of flashes and lenses. is this true?

imnotatfault

Sep 4, 2006, 06:49 PM

well i'm not sure if that's 100% true or not, but it's a possibility.

However... There are adapter mounts available to use different brand lenses on your camera. Also trust that all lenses you need minus technical upgrades as far as focus speed, etc. are already available.

Do I think that Pentax is the best? No. Do I think you should stay away from that camera if it seems appealing to you? No.

Just do some research. 10 years is also not that bad of a time. We're not talking about analog. Digital, just like computers and cell phones and everything else, has a lifespan and will eventually need to be updated with a newer product at some point.

Not the exact answer you were looking for, I know, but hopefully it helps somewhat.

ChrisA

Sep 4, 2006, 07:44 PM

i've had a great time in the darkroom. a great time with B&W negatives. i've had a great time with my old nikon 35mm SLR. it's time to go digital. i need to keep everything well under $1000 if possible. all i want is 6 MP, a nice all purpose lense (i'll want to get a decent macro and telephoto a year or two down the line), manual aperture settings, manual shutter speed settings, manual zoom. i want to get a good blend of affordability and quality. what's the cheapest i can go for a camera that meets all of my requirements and will last me for 5-10 years?

EDIT: i also want something that will make sense to a person used to 35mm cameras, like me.

The Nikon D50 exactly mathes your requirements. It has the same "feel" is a late model Nikon film camera. If you old Nikon is an autofocus camera with AF lenses then those lenses will fit the D50.

If you lenses are older manual focus then you MAY want to look at the D200 or for a used D100. Those camera will meter couple with the older lenses. The D50 will mount the older lenses but the meter will not functon.

Nikon has made the transition from Ffilm SLR the digital SRL fairly painless.

bousozoku

Sep 4, 2006, 08:04 PM

Silentwave

Sep 4, 2006, 08:26 PM

The Nikon D50 exactly mathes your requirements. It has the same "feel" is a late model Nikon film camera. If you old Nikon is an autofocus camera with AF lenses then those lenses will fit the D50.

If you lenses are older manual focus then you MAY want to look at the D200 or for a used D100. Those camera will meter couple with the older lenses. The D50 will mount the older lenses but the meter will not functon.

Nikon has made the transition from Ffilm SLR the digital SRL fairly painless.

The D100 does not meter with manual focus lenses.

The D1, D1H, D1X, D2H, D2Hs, D200, D2X, and D2Xs are the Nikon Digital SLR cameras that meter with manual focus lenses.

balofagus

Sep 4, 2006, 10:24 PM

I also read about "Pentax dieing in 10 years". They've been around for a long time already and have a deal with Samsung that will keep them in the game that long at least so I decided to "risk it." As bousozoku said, you've got almost 30 years of lenses that are compatible without any adaptor or alerations. If you'd like to take a look at all these lenses check out http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/. It's sort of confusing to navigate but well worth it.

Also, I did some research on what Abstract said about the use of older lenses. It appears that the most major problem this will cause is lens flare. Now, this can be quite a nuisance so I asked around on another forum I frequent and from all the replies I got I compiled that out of around a combined 50 000 exposures from different people, under 10 had noticeable flare.

ChrisA

Sep 5, 2006, 12:36 PM

I asked around on another forum I frequent and from all the replies I got I compiled that out of around a combined 50 000 exposures from different people, under 10 had noticeable flare.

I think Nikon is the only other company that allows you to stil use all those older lenses they made over the last 50 years. When people ask me if those older Nikon lenses are any good I just tell then to pick up a 1960's or 1970's copy of National Geographic. Almost ALL of those images where shot with 60's or 70's vintage Nikon glass.

If you have doubts about lenses from the 1930's go look at Ed. Westin's work.

I have a ziess lens with Exacta mount. It is a 55mm f/1.4 made in East Germany (before it was called that, the lens is stammped "Made in USSR Ocupied Germany") It iwas made in the early 50's and is still very sharp although you can get it to flair if you point it into the sun. I'm told the lens as very expensive in it's day. Sometimes it's fun shooting with the antique 35mm SLR.

wmmk

Sep 8, 2006, 04:50 PM

Anything is possible. Only having 27 years of K-mount lenses is really limiting, I'm sure.
LOL. good point. this guy was just saying you can't get new lenses when a company is out of business. then again, based on this this thread, old lenses are just as good as new ones. still, are pentax lenses and flashes up to the quality of nikon and canon lenses and flashes or at least close?

bousozoku

Sep 8, 2006, 05:43 PM

LOL. good point. this guy was just saying you can't get new lenses when a company is out of business. then again, based on this this thread, old lenses are just as good as new ones. still, are pentax lenses and flashes up to the quality of nikon and canon lenses and flashes or at least close?

Pentax really never have had a double standard as Canon and Nikon do--they never made budget lenses. kwajo.com can tell you a lot more with his constant real life experience.

How many times has Apple been going out of business? It's certainly possible that if everyone believed that Apple was going out of business (including the Mac-o-lytes) then Apple would not have any sales and would go out of business.

Obviously, people would use Minolta as an example of smaller camera makers leaving the SLR field. Minolta was never a great camera company. They didn't aspire to do anything but sell cameras. They put together inexpensive parts and sold their cameras for less but they never went after the professional market and never went after excellence the way Pentax did.

jamesW135

Sep 9, 2006, 05:58 PM

I'd Get the Nikon if I were you. Very Reliable cameras

wmmk

Sep 16, 2006, 11:03 AM

hmm...
That new K10D is looking pretty nice.
Anyway, outside of the foums, I've been convinced that canon would win the canon vs. nikon debate because of superior image sensors.

My top choices are now:
Pentax K100D kit w/18-55mm lense ($580)
Olympus E-500 kit w/14-45mm & 40-150mm lenses($620)
Canon EOS rebel XT kit w/18-55mm lenses($600)

EDIT: I added a poll:)

Mitthrawnuruodo

Sep 16, 2006, 11:26 AM

My top choices are now:
Pentax K100D kit w/18-55mm lense ($580)
Olympus E-500 kit w/14-45mm & 40-150mm lenses($620)
Canon EOS rebel XT kit w/18-55mm lenses($600)

EDIT: I added a poll:)Voted Olympus E-500 kit w/14-45mm & 40-150mm lenses($620).

That's the kit I'll get as soon as I can afford it... :)

In a way it's going to replace my old OM-1 (35mm, not used since the mid 90s) and Centurion (APS, not in any serious use for a couple of years), and complement my current digital P&S, a µ digital 600 (aka stylus 600). All Olympus cameras. Just makes sense to stay with Olympus.

Also the anti-dust system is supposed to be fantastic (and only matched in the new Canon 400D), and I think the four thirds lens system, specially designed for digital cameras, makes sense. :)

beavo451

Sep 16, 2006, 01:18 PM

Voted Olympus E-500 kit w/14-45mm & 40-150mm lenses($620).

That's the kit I'll get as soon as I can afford it... :)

In a way it's going to replace my old OM-1 (35mm, not used since the mid 90s) and Centurion (APS, not in any serious use for a couple of years), and complement my current digital P&S, a µ digital 600 (aka stylus 600). All Olympus cameras. Just makes sense to stay with Olympus.

Also the anti-dust system is supposed to be fantastic (and only matched in the new Canon 400D), and I think the four thirds lens system, specially designed for digital cameras, makes sense. :)

Still can't beat a blower.

(Test of Sony and Olympus anti-dust)
http://www.ephotozine.com/equipment/tests/testdetail.cfm?test_id=468

job

Sep 16, 2006, 01:36 PM

Still can't beat a blower.

(Test of Sony and Olympus anti-dust)
http://forums.macrumors.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2845110

What the heck is that link/quote?

How does the Sony system work?

beavo451

Sep 16, 2006, 03:03 PM

What the heck is that link/quote?

How does the Sony system work?

OOPS :o

wrong link here is the right one

http://www.ephotozine.com/equipment/tests/testdetail.cfm?test_id=468

bousozoku

Sep 16, 2006, 03:26 PM

Still can't beat a blower.

(Test of Sony and Olympus anti-dust)
http://www.ephotozine.com/equipment/tests/testdetail.cfm?test_id=468

I suppose the blower is okay but you risk putting the dust right back on the sensor. Other methods risk damaging the sensor. I'm surprised that there is so much dust left on the Olympus sensor. After about 2.5 years with an Olympus E-1, I should be unable to see any detail of what I was shooting at that rate.

wmmk:

If you end up getting a Canon, don't get the 18-55mm kit lens. The camera may be fine but the lens is the cheapest piece I've ever seen and that includes the Quantaray brand sold by Ritz. It isn't worthy to sit on the camera. There are much better choices with the money you'll save, such as the 50mm f/1.8.

beavo451

Sep 16, 2006, 04:20 PM

I suppose the blower is okay but you risk putting the dust right back on the sensor. Other methods risk damaging the sensor. I'm surprised that there is so much dust left on the Olympus sensor. After about 2.5 years with an Olympus E-1, I should be unable to see any detail of what I was shooting at that rate.

SORRY ABOUT THE HIJACK!!!

But, I just have to say this.

Think about this: When the sensor shakes with the lens on, the dust flies off right? Then it is just floating around in the air between the sensor and shutter. Where does it have to go? Wouldn't some of the dust (being dust) float right back onto the sensor?

The AA filter over the sensor is rather hard and only with carelessness can it actually be scratched or damaged.

jessica.

Sep 16, 2006, 04:43 PM

I picked canon, seems you have more room to move starting with it. BUT...how come you don't have nikon up there? That d80 is actually quite nice.

bousozoku

Sep 16, 2006, 07:47 PM

SORRY ABOUT THE HIJACK!!!

But, I just have to say this.

Think about this: When the sensor shakes with the lens on, the dust flies off right? Then it is just floating around in the air between the sensor and shutter. Where does it have to go? Wouldn't some of the dust (being dust) float right back onto the sensor?

The AA filter over the sensor is rather hard and only with carelessness can it actually be scratched or damaged.

Olympus has a sticky dust collector as part of the dust removal system.

Clix Pix

Sep 16, 2006, 07:51 PM

because there were no Nikon options there. Why are you not considering the D50 or the new D80 if you can't afford the D200?

The D80 seems to be a terrific camera with pulling together some of the best functions and features of its predecessors the D70/D70s with a bit of the D50 thrown in, not to mention the D200's great VF! The body is extremely well priced and that new 18-135 mm kit lens being offered sounds as though it is pretty good bang for the buck.

Why not Nikon?

wmmk

Sep 19, 2006, 10:47 PM

Why not Nikon?
as i explained, canon and nikon make very expensive lenses. i still put canon up because i have heard that canons have better sensors than nikons. also, the D80 is a bit out of my price range, and I just don't like the way the D50 feels, as a guy who is coming from a big, bulky 35mm nikon (yes, im coming from a nikon). to be honest, nikons just kind of bug me when i actually use them. still, I could get a D70s with a 18-70mm lense for $700. is this worth the $120-$80 extra from the other cameras I'm considering?

bousozoku,
As I totally trust your advice on the canon XT kit lense, i'd definitely get a different lense. is there any nice general lenses for that camera priced around $120 or less?

bousozoku

Sep 19, 2006, 11:01 PM

...
bousozoku,
As I totally trust your advice on the canon XT kit lense, i'd definitely get a different lense. is there any nice general lenses for that camera priced around $120 or less?

As I mentioned, the 50mm f/1.8 is a good, time-tested lens that you can find for fewer than $100. I can't recommend any 3rd party lenses because it seems to be hit or miss as to whether they work with the various Canon cameras. ChipNovaMac has said that it's not as bad as I believe but it's difficult to tell what works since Canon seems to mess with their firmware constantly to keep 3rd party lenses from working with the full line.

beavo451

Sep 19, 2006, 11:06 PM

as i explained, canon and nikon make very expensive lenses. i still put canon up because i have heard that canons have better sensors than nikons. also, the D80 is a bit out of my price range, and I just don't like the way the D50 feels, as a guy who is coming from a big, bulky 35mm nikon (yes, im coming from a nikon). to be honest, nikons just kind of bug me when i actually use them. still, I could get a D70s with a 18-70mm lense for $700. is this worth the $120-$80 extra from the other cameras I'm considering?

Lenses are expensive because they are very good. the D70s kit lens (18-70mm) is one of the best midrange zooms you can get. Excellent focal range and image quality is almost as good as the 28-70mm or the 17-55mm.

nbs2

Sep 20, 2006, 09:33 AM

Things I have learned in my quest for the right camera for me (I'm roughly in the same situation as you, just less experienced with SLR):

Canon: I've used an A70 since 2003 and love it. I think that Canon has wonderful quality and power management. But, the XT is painful to hold. The grip is just too small and I end up useing the grip of death because I'm afraid it will slip through my fingers. Also, most of my shooting is hand held, not tripod, and I like evening shots, which means a good amount of blur if I don't spend a good deal of money on the lens.

Olympus: The 4/3 system is brilliant on paper. Taking the smaller sensor size and using smaller lenses designed for the smaller sensor should mean smaller amounts of material, leading to reduced weight and cost. The idea does work - all the other majors have their "designed for digital" lenses stuck on the larget mounts. But, the cameras and the lenses seem rather pricey to me. Maybe even a little more, since you have to buy new lenses - older lenses are too big to ever mount. A lot of money getting spent there.

Pentax: I'm looking at getting a K100, but have been tempted with the K10 (I have $600 credit at Ritz, so getting a K10 for $400 is really tempting - but a K100 for $100 is even moreso). Pentax has a strong history, and needs to get into the DSLR game - which they are doing by offering strong value wit their bosies and taking advantage of historically well-regarded lenses. but, there aren't as many people using them, so it is often tough to get a good opinion on general forums. That also makes it a bit tougher to get advice. Additionally, when you look for new lenses online, a lot of shops don't list very many of the lenses in their stock.

Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. It frustrating when you hear all the good without recognition of the bad. I don't know a lot about any particular line, but hopefully this helps a little.

beavo451

Sep 20, 2006, 10:26 AM

Olympus: The 4/3 system is brilliant on paper. Taking the smaller sensor size and using smaller lenses designed for the smaller sensor should mean smaller amounts of material, leading to reduced weight and cost. The idea does work - all the other majors have their "designed for digital" lenses stuck on the larget mounts. But, the cameras and the lenses seem rather pricey to me. Maybe even a little more, since you have to buy new lenses - older lenses are too big to ever mount. A lot of money getting spent there.

I think the 4/3 system is a gimmick. All "standard" print size have to be cropped to some extent to be printed from a 4:3 ratio. Smaller sensor? Get a superzoom or compact digital camera. The 2x crop factor completely kills wide angle options. The 1.5x and 1.6x crop of Nikon and Canon are already bad enough. Smaller sensor also has noise problems. Look at the test samples in DPReview and you will see significant noise at higher ISOs.

nbs2

Sep 20, 2006, 10:43 AM

Clix Pix

Sep 20, 2006, 12:40 PM

One of the women on my women's digital photography Yahoogroups list has an Olympus Evolt. Frankly, I'm not impressed. It is slower between shots and has a smaller buffer, which she found to be a serious impediment when she was trying to shoot RAW.

pdxflint

Sep 20, 2006, 02:26 PM

Well, it's not on your survey, but I'd strongly consider a reconditioned (factory) Nikon D50 w/kit lens for under $500. The 18-55 kit lens isn't constructed as well as some of the more expensive lenses, but once it's stopped down to f/5.6 or greater, it's extremely sharp, particularly from 18mm to 35mm range. Even at 55mm it's quite good once stopped down. Despite the lens snobbery that exists out there, considering the price it's a great little lens. Just check out some of the posts (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=20074603&q=18+55&qf=m)at dpreview....) I considered getting the 18-70 Nikkor to replace it at first, but now see now reason to duplicate the 18-55mm range by spending more money, unless the extra reach to 70mm is worth $300. I'd say get another lens to compliment the kit lens, either a wider zoom, or the 50mm f/1.8 or something with more reach.

The factory reconditioned D50's come with Nikon 90 day warranty and all the stuff the new ones come with, and for all practical purposes are brand new. I'd feel as comfortable buying a Nikon refurbished product as buying an Apple refurbished Mac or iPod. I did add a 5 yr extended warranty on mine for $60, which includes an annual cleaning (including sensor.) I may not keep the body that long, but felt the warranty was cheap insurance for those mysterious electronic maladies that randomly affect electronic gear.

The only bad thing is I'm sure the supply of refurb D50s is dwindling rapidly, but it's a great starter dSLR, and creates great images. It does remarkably well at iso 1600, and can produce excellent prints at usable sizes. Even though it's a 6.1 mp sensor, it seems to have hit a sweet spot in the compromise between resolution, pixel density and noise. Anyway, just thought I would chime in with some D50 feedback. cheers -phil

bousozoku

Sep 20, 2006, 03:38 PM

I think the 4/3 system is a gimmick. All "standard" print size have to be cropped to some extent to be printed from a 4:3 ratio. Smaller sensor? Get a superzoom or compact digital camera. The 2x crop factor completely kills wide angle options. The 1.5x and 1.6x crop of Nikon and Canon are already bad enough. Smaller sensor also has noise problems. Look at the test samples in DPReview and you will see significant noise at higher ISOs.

The 7-14mm f/4.0 and the 8mm f/3.5 fisheye aren't enough?

The noise problem with the sensor is an issue for some. I haven't noticed it at all but then, I never tried to push colour film to ISO 800, either. In the E-400 (Europe and Japan only for now) has some improved linkage for the 10 MP sensor to cut down on noise. I was surprised by the 17mm x 13mm dimensions of the sensor but it seems to have worked well enough for me because I would be spending more money to buy "standard" paper sizes. If you look at the difference between point and shoot sensors and the 4/3 type sensor, there is a lot more surface area and I seriously doubt I would get the clear prints on 13 x 19 inch paper that I'm currently getting with my E-1.

That's my point. On paper, the idea that you can reduce size and weight while still retaining DSLR functionality is a great idea. Being able to get desktop functionality in a mobile machine is also a great idea. But, when you try and build that perfect replacement laptop, it either ends up incredibly hot or 15 lbs. Same thing with the 4/3 system. If the idea had been implemented with really short focal lengths, the wide angle might have been viable. 7mm*2.0 for a 14mm equivalent? But, the implementation is just too expensive, and so it struggles.

Struggles, yes; fails, no. Yes, some of it is expensive, especially since you're not using adapted equipment. The pro lenses are worth the price. The odd thing about four thirds is the weight of the equipment. It's smaller in most cases but heavy for its size. The E-400 is about the same size as the OM-series and much lighter but it's the only camera to really claim being lightweight, along with the matching lenses.

One of the women on my women's digital photography Yahoogroups list has an Olympus Evolt. Frankly, I'm not impressed. It is slower between shots and has a smaller buffer, which she found to be a serious impediment when she was trying to shoot RAW.

Evolt pertains to 3 different cameras: E-300, E-500, and E-330. The E-300 was seriously flawed. I believe that the only thing that it does right is fitting inside the underwater housing.

You should all seriously think about being Mac bashers--I hear there's more call for it. :D Let's see...have you used an Olympus digital SLR for a week, 10 minutes? Have you held one? What were the other things we applied to Mac bashers? ;)

NinjaMonkey

Sep 20, 2006, 03:40 PM

I figured I'd chime in since I own the E500 kit.

It is a fantastic camera and with the dual lens kit I doubt you'll find a better deal from other manufacturers. The 40-150mm lens is great and the 14-45 mm seemed to be a bit higher quality then the Canon and Nikon kit lenses. I aslo liked the menu layout better then on the Rebel XT and D70.

Now there are of course some things I don't like about the 500. ISO noise is higher than if you went with Canon but I don't find it to be as bad as some people say. And certainly it can be corrected a bit by using Noise Ninja or Neat Image. 3fps shooting is a bit slow, but this may not be a big deal for you, I know I have only found myself in a few situations where I wanted faster continuous shooting. The last thing I don't like is there is no battery grip, when using a heavier lens like the 50-200mm I wish I had one.

If you are looking to spend as little money as possible the e500 dual lens kit is a great deal. The other cameras you have listed are great too, but I'd recommend you hold the Rebel in your hands before you buy it, I hated it immediatly after picking it up.

Clix Pix

Sep 20, 2006, 03:50 PM

Evolt pertains to 3 different cameras: E-300, E-500, and E-330. The E-300 was seriously flawed. I believe that the only thing that it does right is fitting inside the underwater housing.

LOL! Ah, OK, thanks! I believe she does have the Evolt E-300. Since she and her husband have a toddler and now are expecting their second child I doubt that she'll be getting a new camera any time soon.

Olympus makes great lenses -- many years ago I had the Oly "bridge" camera (DLX 3 IS). It was a wonderfully convenient camera to take places and image quality was excellent. This past summer I picked up the Oly 720 SW for use at the pool and the beach and it's not only a fun camera but again the image quality is very good.

nbs2

Sep 20, 2006, 04:25 PM

Struggles, yes; fails, no. Yes, some of it is expensive, especially since you're not using adapted equipment. The pro lenses are worth the price. The odd thing about four thirds is the weight of the equipment. It's smaller in most cases but heavy for its size. The E-400 is about the same size as the OM-series and much lighter but it's the only camera to really claim being lightweight, along with the matching lenses.

You should all seriously think about being Mac bashers--I hear there's more call for it. :D Let's see...have you used an Olympus digital SLR for a week, 10 minutes? Have you held one? What were the other things we applied to Mac bashers? ;)
So you have to admit that there are some failings with the 4/3 system. That was what I was hoping to convey to the OP - that every system has its strengths and weaknesses, and when people try to avoid weaknesses by changing the subject you need to hold their opinions suspect.

I think that the concept behind the 4/3 system is brilliant, and that for people looking for a compact solution the Oly/Pana/etc offerings are brilliant (I really love the L1 or whatever Pana is calls their DSLR - their on board flash implementation is brilliant). I just think that the "all new design" renders a lot of really good, old, and cheap lenses essentially worthless.

I agree that the system hasn't failed completely, but the inability to use older lenses (I think) drives a lot of people away before they can give it a chance. Some of the cheap lenses are really cheap, but a lot of them were out of my price range - and I didn't have older lenses to fall back on. Do I think 4/3 will ever fail? No - as more early adopters move on to better lenses, the used market will mature, helping people feel more comfortable with 4/3. But, until then, it will struggle to grow (not that stuggling is bad - I think 4% market share is struggling).

To be honest, I have no comment on IQ, ease of use, etc, because I've only held the Oly for about 3 minutes when I first started my quest. My opinions are just based on cost and what I've read as I have researched my own camera.

I'd recommend you hold the Rebel in your hands before you buy it, I hated it immediatly after picking it up.
The size of the Rebel may just be one of that special group of things that nobody can be ambivilent about - either pure love or pure hate.:D

Clix Pix

Sep 20, 2006, 05:08 PM

The size of the Rebel may just be one of that special group of things that nobody can be ambivilent about - either pure love or pure hate.:D

LOL! Well, to me the Digital Rebel looks cheap and plasticky and does not feel "right" in my hands.....for someone else it may be just the perfect thing. The outside appearance and feel of a particular camera do not really indicate how well it actually performs, especially as the important factor is actually the lens rather than the camera body. We've seen some excellent images on here from Canons, Nikons, Olympuses (Olympi??), Pentaxes..... While the camera body is important, lenses are more important, but the MOST significant piece of this is....the photographer. I've seen some wonderful images from inexpensive cameras and I've seen some lousy images from Hasselblads. Creativity and a good sense of composition, color, contrast, etc., are key elements which are needed for good images, regardless of the camera gear used to make the image.

bousozoku

Sep 20, 2006, 05:16 PM

So you have to admit that there are some failings with the 4/3 system. That was what I was hoping to convey to the OP - that every system has its strengths and weaknesses, and when people try to avoid weaknesses by changing the subject you need to hold their opinions suspect.

I think that the concept behind the 4/3 system is brilliant, and that for people looking for a compact solution the Oly/Pana/etc offerings are brilliant (I really love the L1 or whatever Pana is calls their DSLR - their on board flash implementation is brilliant). I just think that the "all new design" renders a lot of really good, old, and cheap lenses essentially worthless.

I agree that the system hasn't failed completely, but the inability to use older lenses (I think) drives a lot of people away before they can give it a chance. Some of the cheap lenses are really cheap, but a lot of them were out of my price range - and I didn't have older lenses to fall back on. Do I think 4/3 will ever fail? No - as more early adopters move on to better lenses, the used market will mature, helping people feel more comfortable with 4/3. But, until then, it will struggle to grow (not that stuggling is bad - I think 4% market share is struggling).

To be honest, I have no comment on IQ, ease of use, etc, because I've only held the Oly for about 3 minutes when I first started my quest. My opinions are just based on cost and what I've read as I have researched my own camera.
...

Along with the official Olympus OM-series lens adapter, this company (http://www.cameraquest.com/adapt_olyE1.htm) offers quite a few adapters so that you can use just about any lens with an E-system camera.

When I first saw the companies supporting four-thirds, I wasn't pleased. Kodak and Sigma have never been high on my list. Kodak had a lot of technology but never got it quite right. If not for Fuji, we'd still be using low contrast film. Sigma was known to me as the lenses you bought when you couldn't afford Vivitar. Soft focus filters weren't needed with their lenses.

However, looking at Nikon's D70 and Canon's 300D, there wasn't another choice for me. Had the E-1 not been as amazing as it was and the shots as clear and colour just right, I would have returned everything within a week and searched for a Pentax dealer. I've another week to see the replacement body and the scoop is that it's behind schedule. How can you be behind schedule with over 2 years time? :eek:

wmmk

Sep 20, 2006, 06:39 PM

hey all, i was at ritz the other night and i tried out a rebel XT. man, that thing is a piece of junk! i'd probably brake it in like 30 minutes. ok, down to the final two:)

Clix Pix

Sep 20, 2006, 07:21 PM

nbs2

Sep 21, 2006, 12:34 PM

hey all, i was at ritz the other night and i tried out a rebel XT. man, that thing is a piece of junk! i'd probably brake it in like 30 minutes. ok, down to the final two:)
Be fair - it isn't junk. Just very small and light - which some people want.

I don't know if there are reviews for the cameras you are looking at (I know that the K100 is listed, I don't know about the Olympus), but I'd suggest you check out dcresource's reviews. They are pretty good at being a little more user-friendly and practical than the dpreview.

EDIT: K100D (http://dcresource.com/reviews/pentax/k100d-review/index.shtml) and E-500 (http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/e500-review/)

wmmk

Sep 22, 2006, 05:23 PM

Did you happen to look at any Nikons, too, while you were there? D70s should be coming down in price now that the D80 is out. The 18-70 kit lens that comes with it is really quite good. For the money, in the long run I suspect you'd be better off....
can't say i did. my mom was just running an errand, and she let me go into the ritz, and i just wanted to hold the rebel because so many people said it was too small. I'm Jewish, and Rosh Hashanah starts at sundown and ends at sundown on sunday night. then next weekend in Yom Kippur, so I suppose in two weeks I can get back to a Camera shop and try out lots of stuff (even Nikons:))
by the way, i really like battery grips. they add weight to the camera, increase storage space, and increase strorage. i know that pentax only makes grips for the K10D, but do third party manufacturers make K100D/K110D grips (or olympus E-500 grips)?

macOSX-tastic

Sep 25, 2006, 03:27 PM

wmmk

Sep 25, 2006, 05:40 PM

just read though the thread, and i'm sorry to deviate a little....

i have a Canon EOS 300 and have bought an old 2nd hand lens for it. its a 70 - 210mm one, and the price was excellent....it even had autofocus. will this type of lens be compatable with newer Canon DSLR's if i decide to upgrade in the future?

cheers

S
yep. werll, unlesss cannon starts making completely different cameras, which probably won't happen in the next 20 years:)

Back on topic, the nikon 35mm I'm currently using is a N8008. of all nikon dSLRs, which is most like the old N8008? also, is the 18-55mm lense in the K100D kit an IS lense? does the E-500have an SR system? thanks

serpent

Sep 25, 2006, 10:12 PM

L'shanah tovah, wmmk!
In my oppinion if your really serious about getting into digital photography, ask your Mom for an early Chanukkah present and go for the D80.

Serpent

Bill Gates

Sep 25, 2006, 10:25 PM

L'shanah tovah, wmmk!
In my oppinion if your really serious about getting into digital photography, ask your Mom for an early Chanukkah present and go for the D80.

Serpent
$1000 Hanukkah present? That's kind of unorthodox. :o

serpent

Sep 25, 2006, 10:47 PM

$1000 Hanukkah present? That's kind of unorthodox. :o
It might be a tad unorthodox, but bigger miracles have been known to happen! :p

Serpent

NinjaMonkey

Sep 25, 2006, 10:49 PM

can't say i did. my mom was just running an errand, and she let me go into the ritz, and i just wanted to hold the rebel because so many people said it was too small. I'm Jewish, and Rosh Hashanah starts at sundown and ends at sundown on sunday night. then next weekend in Yom Kippur, so I suppose in two weeks I can get back to a Camera shop and try out lots of stuff (even Nikons:))
by the way, i really like battery grips. they add weight to the camera, increase storage space, and increase strorage. i know that pentax only makes grips for the K10D, but do third party manufacturers make K100D/K110D grips (or olympus E-500 grips)?

Sadly Oly doesn't make a grip for the E500, I really wish they did. Battery life is pretty good though, I usually fill up my card way before I need to bother changing the battery. As far as storage space the cool thing about the E500 is that it has two memory slots you can use. It has a compact Flash slot and a XD slot. I keep a 2gig Compact Flash card and a 512 xd card in my camera at all times.

wmmk

Sep 26, 2006, 07:15 PM

Sadly Oly doesn't make a grip for the E500, I really wish they did. Battery life is pretty good though, I usually fill up my card way before I need to bother changing the battery. As far as storage space the cool thing about the E500 is that it has two memory slots you can use. It has a compact Flash slot and a XD slot. I keep a 2gig Compact Flash card and a 512 xd card in my camera at all times.
wow, that's nice flexibility! how many memory slots are on the pentax? i read that only 46 RAW images from the K100D fit on a 512 card. i suppose a 2 gig card would hold 184 images, which isn't altogether terrible, but I'd like to have more than that, just for those hypothetical situations in which I don't have access to my computer for a whole weekend or even 4-5 day trip to someplace, and i don't want be fumbling around timy cards in a big slr backpack, then again, 184 images would be the equivalent of about 8 rolls of film. hmmm.....
decisions, decisions...

NinjaMonkey

Sep 27, 2006, 09:01 AM

wow, that's nice flexibility! how many memory slots are on the pentax? i read that only 46 RAW images from the K100D fit on a 512 card. i suppose a 2 gig card would hold 184 images, which isn't altogether terrible, but I'd like to have more than that, just for those hypothetical situations in which I don't have access to my computer for a whole weekend or even 4-5 day trip to someplace, and i don't want be fumbling around timy cards in a big slr backpack, then again, 184 images would be the equivalent of about 8 rolls of film. hmmm.....
decisions, decisions...

I get about 74 RAW shots per gig on the e500. The only issue with xD is that it is slower to write than Compact Flash so it isn't great for burst shooting. It is nice to have the extra card slot though and most cameras don't have it so I can't complain too much.

nbs2

Sep 27, 2006, 09:42 AM

also, is the 18-55mm lense in the K100D kit an IS lense?
The beauty of in body SR is that every lens is IS, and you don't have the intense weight that you would get with a Canon IS or Nikon VR lens, and every lens is an IS lens.

Also, I would say it is very unlikely (if I say impossible, someone will do it just to spite me :)) that a TP could make a grip for the K100. There aren't any pins on the body to recieve data from a grip or send power to the camera. I'm sure someone could build something that would screw into the tripod mount and connect to the AC (converting the DC AAs to AC) and remote trigger ports, but I don't see it happening.

Also, only one SD slot on the Pentax, which will accept SDHC cards, so 2GB isn't your upper limit if you are concerned. I have a 1GB and I plan to buy a cheap 2 or 4GB card (making that the primary and the 1GB my backup).

wmmk

Sep 29, 2006, 07:55 PM

The beauty of in body SR is that every lens is IS, and you don't have the intense weight that you would get with a Canon IS or Nikon VR lens, and every lens is an IS lens.

Also, I would say it is very unlikely (if I say impossible, someone will do it just to spite me :)) that a TP could make a grip for the K100. There aren't any pins on the body to recieve data from a grip or send power to the camera. I'm sure someone could build something that would screw into the tripod mount and connect to the AC (converting the DC AAs to AC) and remote trigger ports, but I don't see it happening.

Also, only one SD slot on the Pentax, which will accept SDHC cards, so 2GB isn't your upper limit if you are concerned. I have a 1GB and I plan to buy a cheap 2 or 4GB card (making that the primary and the 1GB my backup).
whoa, that helped a lot. ok, i'm just about sure i'll go with the K100D now. being able to use a 4GB card would sure be nice! i suppose the battery grip isn't that huge of an issue. is the K100D the only camera within my price range that has in body, IS? if so, i'm getting it no matter what. i hate lenses that heavier than the body they're on!

bousozoku

Sep 29, 2006, 09:38 PM

whoa, that helped a lot. ok, i'm just about sure i'll go with the K100D now. being able to use a 4GB card would sure be nice! i suppose the battery grip isn't that huge of an issue. is the K100D the only camera within my price range that has in body, IS? if so, i'm getting it no matter what. i hate lenses that heavier than the body they're on!

I guess you'll only be using short lenses. ;)

Grips are nice, I suppose, but I really dislike the extra weight, especially since I don't use a tripod on monopod to stabilise the shot. They get in the way.

Pentax really does have a great, new line of cameras.