Tough Decision, GOOD Camcorder or FAST Mac?

[FF_productions]

Hey guys,

I've put myself in a tough position.

I've saved up some money over the past few months to go ahead and buy a dvc30. Now that I've come up with enough money, I'm having 2nd thoughts.

If I sold my Dual G4 and combined it with the amount of money saved up for the camcorder, I can buy a FAST PowerMac/Mac Pro.

OR, I can replace my ****** Digital 8 Camcorder with a Panasonic AG-DVC30 and live with a Dual G4 to edit in Final Cut Pro.

I just need an extra opinion to help sooth the pain.

[srf4real]

just my opinion, but if I already had a decent computer, I'd go for the cam-corder so I could have both a good mac and the great cam... If you sell the G4 and upgrade to a "faster" mac you'll still have nothing but a good computer and still be needing a good cam...

[FF_productions]

True, but I usually edit other people's videos..

I would like to have a decent camcorder.

I'm leaning towards a camcorder, then slowly earn money for a faster machine.

I just want to order this camcorder as soon as possible so I stop having crazy thoughts.

[MacFan25863]

Why not buy the MacPro and a cheap dv cam (like a used Canon ZR80)?

The quality of the ZR80s is actually pretty good (better than the rest of the ZR line IMHO). Anything dv you buy is better than Hi8.

[FF_productions]

I think I have reached a Verdict.


I'm going to buy this Panasonic AG-DVC30.

then, slowly put money together and get a G5/Mac Pro to be my ultimate final cut computer.

It's very nervous times because I've never invested this much into anything..

[Felldownthewell]

Sorry to create more doubt in your mind, but if you usually edit other people's movies then maybe you should go with the new computer, then save up slowly for the good camcorder. The camcorder is cheaper than than the computer, and therefore it will take less time to save up for it.

It also depends on whether you edit/film for a living. If this is what you do for a living and the majority of it is editing, go for the computer.

It is true that if you buy the computer you will have a great computer but low quality footage to edit on, and if you buy the camcorder you will have good footage but an older, slower machine. The other side of this is that HD video is becoming more and more affordable, while SD DV is becoming quickly obsolete (not totally of course, but it is moving in that direction). You may be better advised to buy the computer now that can handle HD video, and then save for a hopefully-then-lower-priced HD camcorder. If you do choose to later upgrade to HD and have stuck with the dual G4, then you will be screwed, as the G4 wont be nearly as capable as the quad g5 or Mac Pro.

[srf4real]

honestly, if I were you, I'd keep the G4, get the cheaper cam that's almost as good, and take a surf trip. But, if you're editing other people's video for income, a MacPro may be the wisest investment:confused:

[FF_productions]

See, this isn't the easiest decision to make.


I do try to make $$ with my machine and would like a super fast machine to work with that is dedicated to editing.

The camcorder is something I've wanted for a while but couldn't afford it and now I can.

This is a tough decision.

[Demoman]

You can never replace the quality of the video you shoot. It is lost forever. You can always increase your computer later. I also have an AG-DVC30 and love it. It made a world of difference to what I was producing.

I needed a second camera for the type of video I shoot. I thought about buying an HD camera, but no one can watch the video. I ended up with an AG-DVX100B. I figure HD is still 3-4 years away from the mainstream. I will have amortized the investment within 2 years.

Note: Do not use Sony DV tapes in your camera. In fact, go on the web and find an inexpensive source for professional panasonic tapes. The careful shopper can find them comparably priced to cheap retail tapes.

[Matt Phoenix]

Just wondering, what's wrong with Sony DV tapes? I'm definitely not a fan of Sony, as everything I've owned by them has fallen apart, but what's the deal with those?

[Keebler]

i was in the same boat. had a g4, needed a camcorder, wanted a faster G5.

in the end, this is what calculated my decision:
1. i use my machines to make money. i wasn't quite sure that getting a camcorder would get me money, but i knew the machines could make me money and....camcorders are cheaper so getting the money for one of those would take less time.

so, i bought a dual g5..the 2.0 with a bunch of ram and an externa e-sata enclosure with some HDs. not the fastest machine in the world, but it does the trick and handles the pro software just fine.

the result...i made enough money in a few months to buy a new camcorder.

i did keep the g4 though. i would have made more money then compared to now. it's probably worth it for you to keep your g4. you won't get alot for it and imho, the value of what you use it for (editing or burning a dvd while you edit on your new machine), is worth more than what you would get back for it.

hope that helps.
keebler

[LethalWolfe]

If you do a lot of CPU intensive video tasks (lots of effects/compositing, lots of DVD encoding, want to use Motion, etc.,.) then a new machine might be the best way to go because you could finish projects faster thus allowing you to work on more projects. Of course, this assumes that you have enough business lined up that being able to turn projects around faster will actually increase your revenue.

For my paying side work I still use my 4.5yr old Dual 1ghz G4. But I don't do a lot of vertical editing (effects/compositing) so typically the only thing I have to render are titles and color effects. Encoding DVDs takes forever, but I just do that overnight. I'll probably upgrade when the Rev. B towers come out... assuming I need to do something that my G4 can't handle.

If your computer isn't holding you back, and you do a fair amount of production work (shooting) getting a better camera or other production gear (light kit, audio gear, etc.,) might be a better investment.

If you can't decide then pay cash for one and put the other on a credit card. Nothing like carrying debt to motivate you to make money. ;)


Matt Phoenix,
I think Demoman was trying to say that paying the premium for Sony tapes isn't worth it as you can get equal quality tapes for less (kinda like how you shouldn't buy RAM from Apple 'cause they mark it up so much).


Lethal

[3dit3r]

If you are not a professional editor or shooter, then I would suggest you buy what you enjoy doing more. If or when you become a professional, you will probably focus on one or the other. Not to say that you have to or that this is a paradigm, but I don't know of anyone that can get consistent work doing both. All the pro shooters and editors I know can do both, but mainly get work doing one.

Speed may appear to be an important factor in upgrading your computer, but it doesn't mean you still can't get the work done. I still do plenty of work from home on my Dual G4 450 running Jaguar and FCP 4. I upgraded to 4.5 and Panther but dumped both because it slowed down my computer. Sure, it takes longer to render, but I guess I'm old school and have learned from my days of editing on AVID v.1 how to work around that.

So get what you really like to do. Subconsciously, you know what that is. It kind of sounds like you want the camera. And remember, when you do this professionally, you can write off your computer, camera, hard drives...

[FF_productions]

This saturday I'm ordering the DVC30, the computer I will save up for later. So in a month or 2, I'll be posting whether I want a G5 or a Mac Pro.

[Demoman]

Just wondering, what's wrong with Sony DV tapes? I'm definitely not a fan of Sony, as everything I've owned by them has fallen apart, but what's the deal with those?

Sony uses a special lubricant on their tapes that will wreak havoc with Panasonic heads.

[Felldownthewell]

Sony uses a special lubricant on their tapes that will wreak havoc with Panasonic heads.


If I didn't know that we were talking about cameras and I took this out of context it sounds SO DIRTY. :eek: :D

[LethalWolfe]

Sony uses a special lubricant on their tapes that will wreak havoc with Panasonic heads.
The problem is a general one, not something specific to Sony. Some manufacturers use a wet lubricant and others use a dry lubricant. If you mix them it can turn to goo and clog your heads. The old rule of thumb is to pick one brand of tape and only use that brand, but I've been hearing for the past couple of years that the manufacturers fixed the problem on their end. I've run a bunch of different brands of tapes on a bunch of different DV decks in the past few years, and the only issue I ever had was w/Panasonic tapes not playing back right in a Sony 1500 deck. But they played back fine in a Sony HDV deck. Go figure.


Lethal

[MacFan25863]

I've run a bunch of different brands of tapes on a bunch of different DV decks in the past few years, and the only issue I ever had was w/Panasonic tapes not playing back right in a Sony 1500 deck. But they played back fine in a Sony HDV deck. Go figure.


Lethal


Our Sony deck had the same problem...it didn't like anything but Sony tapes. We ended up selling it and getting a new (non-Sony) one.

[PegasusMedia]

There's something funny about the way our minds work. I'm just a video nerd, but this is an interesting psycholgy exercise that fascinates me. What is it that drives us to want (need?) the newest fastest computer? It's only going to be the newest fastest computer for a few months at best, you know.

FF, you have a perfectly good computer that is fully funtional and cranking out product for you! You don't need to relace it! The only time this is important, as Lethal said, is if you are running an around the clock operation where the processing speed increase will increase revenue. Keep in mind...the faster computer will not make you, the editor - the artist - faster. It will simply make renders & such faster, which, if you are sleeping 8 hours per night, probably doesn't matter much. Schedule your days so that renders, burns, and such happen at night and at lunch.

At my day job, we have a superfancy top of the line Media100 844/x that rocks the world. Next door we have a TEN year old Media 100 running on a 9600 with 29 gigs of external storage. And you know what? BOTH rooms make lots of money! A lot of jobs can still be done very well on a ten year old machine...so I think your "old" mac is still ok!

You made a good decision. Enjoy the camera, and use it to expand your services. A tip from a grizzled old fart...you normally edit other peoples stuff? Use your new camera to shoot & work on something YOU like. Something that interests you. Working on other peoples stuff too much will make you a crabby old bugger like me!

[FF_productions]

Everything you just said


Thanks so much for the response. You really hit the mark with that post. Seriously, I do want a new computer for faster renders...but will it make me better? No.

Saturday I'm ordering the camcorder and I'm going to live with this machine.

Just a question, what kinds of stuff do you edit? It boggles the mind how you could use such old machines to do projects and still make profit...

[LethalWolfe]

Just a question, what kinds of stuff do you edit? It boggles the mind how you could use such old machines to do projects and still make profit...

As recently as 2004 I saw Avids running on 9600s at 3 or 4 post houses (some in LA some in Indiana). Those guys were probably brand new in 1997-8. Up until last year a place I used to work at used a linear edit bay on a daily basis (the thing was probably 15yrs old at least). Granted it was used for a very specific purpose, but it was still used 100hrs a week. A show I worked on earlier this year we used Avids on mirror door drive Macs running Jag.

As long as the machine still does what you need it to do it's not obsolete.


Lethal

[FF_productions]

As long as the machine still does what you need it to do it's not obsolete.

Lethal

You guys have given me a completely different perspective on my machine.

This is a strange question, but if I loaded Jaguar on this machine, and all the original stuff this machine had, would it be faster?

[LethalWolfe]

You guys have given me a completely different perspective on my machine.
I think it comes for the experience. The experience of knowing when your gear is holding you back vs when you are holding yourself back. And the experience of buying something new and snazzy only to realize what a waste of money it was.

A few years ago I got a shooting/editing job working for CART (open-wheel racing series) and thought a PDA would just the thing I needed to be professional and organized and all that stuff while on the go at the track. After a two races I mainly used the PDA for MP3s and games while traveling between races, and at the track (the reason I bought a PDA in the first place) I used a pen and pocket sized note pad.:rolleyes:

This is a strange question, but if I loaded Jaguar on this machine, and all the original stuff this machine had, would it be faster?
I doubt it. Apple's done a good job of keeping OS X snappy on older machines, plus if you go all the way back to Jag you'll limit what software you can use as many apps don't support that far back. FWIW, the MDDs running Jag I mentioned in my last post didn't seem any faster than my Quicksilver running Tiger.


Lethal

[johan_tanying]

This is a strange question, but if I loaded Jaguar on this machine, and all the original stuff this machine had, would it be faster?
On my seven years old G4 350 MHz / 768 MB RAM / ATI Rage Pro 16 MB Panther runs considerably faster than Jaguar. I haven't tried Tiger for long yet, but it seems at least no slower than Panther. My advice is to go for 10.3.9 - fast and compatible with almosr all software.

[Scarlet Fever]

Cameras last as long as they physically can. Computers need updating after a few years. If I were in your position, i would be getting the cam and some RAM or a CPU upgrade for my PM.

...in a month or 2, I'll be posting whether I want a G5 or a Mac Pro.
As for this question, the MacPro is faster and probably more future proof. Wait till they go on the refurb list; on the Australian store, i saw a PowerMac Dual 2.7GHz for 30% off retail price!

[PegasusMedia]

"Just a question, what kinds of stuff do you edit? It boggles the mind how you could use such old machines to do projects and still make profit..."

Heh. Well that's the hardest question to answer that I've seen on here. We do a little of dern near everything, focused mostly on higher end corporate type stuff. Vignettes for the United Way drive...Promo for the builder of a new neighborhood...sales hype for the annual meeting, that kind of thing.

But here's an important point...the old M100 can do almost anything a fancy new machine can do. Of course, when I do more layering & vertical editing, I go to the fancy box...but an old machine can still do a good percentage of the typical daily grind editing. If what you do is mostly Horizontal editing (this shot, cut to that shot, dissolve to this shot) a 10 year old system is 100% perfectly good. We charge $150 per hour for that room and do quite well.
I will admit to putting only low end "consumer" or unsupervised (no client present) edits in there, but a good bit of our work is unsupervised. In the end, they have no idea on which machine their work was done.

My favorite analogy, which i use often, is this...

Imagine you walk into the Sistine Chapel. You look at the walls, the cieling...you see an ablolute masterpiece of art. Do you find yourself wondering whose paintbrushes he used to paint it?

Of course not. The work is impressive because of the artist, not the artist's tools. Obviously great tools make the work easier to create, but great work comes from an artist, not from his "brush", which in our case is a computer/software.

Deep, eh?

Enjoy your camera dude.

[LethalWolfe]

My favorite analogy, which i use often, is this...

Imagine you walk into the Sistine Chapel. You look at the walls, the cieling...you see an ablolute masterpiece of art. Do you find yourself wondering whose paintbrushes he used to paint it?


My favorite came from a photographer on another forum when someone said, "Nice pictures. What kind of camera do you use?" He replied, "If you have a great meal at a restaurant do you ask the chef what kinds of pans he used?"


Lethal

[3dit3r]

My favorite analogy, which i use often, is this...

Imagine you walk into the Sistine Chapel. You look at the walls, the cieling...you see an ablolute masterpiece of art. Do you find yourself wondering whose paintbrushes he used to paint it?

Of course not. The work is impressive because of the artist, not the artist's tools. Obviously great tools make the work easier to create, but great work comes from an artist, not from his "brush", which in our case is a computer/software.


You better believe it that other artists are wondering what tools other artists are using! As a person who used to call himself a 'painter' and was active in the 'fine arts' world, I, and all the other artists I knew would often try and figure out what materials our favorite artists used. It's the norm; trying to pick up various techniques by discovering their methods. This often led to the invariable warning from security for getting our noses to close to the canvases... :(

Now, as an editor, I don't wonder how someone made that cut, but what box was used to handle that effect or color,etc.,etc....

[FF_productions]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

It has really changed my perspective on computers.

The only reason I would get a new machine would be for speedier rendering/encoding. Does it make ME better at editing? No. Do I get loads of projects? No.

My friends think this machine is a super-computer, they always come over because their PC's can't do the job.

This Mac has a lot more value to me now, and I'd like to thank everyone for giving me confidence in this machine.

I'm ordering the camcorder saturday, and expecting it to be at my house sometime during next week, I'll post again whenever it comes!

[FF_productions]

I have officially ordered the DVC30!

The excitement is mounting!!

[notjustjay]

Congrats!

I didn't see this thread soon enough, or I would have chimed in about buying the camera first.

A slower computer is just an inconvenience -- ultimately you get the same end result that you would with a faster one, but you have to wait longer for it.

A lower-quality camcorder can never give you the same end result as a better camcorder. You can't just "upgrade".

Plus, a good camcorder, particularly the pro ones, will last you many years. I've watched Sony's consumer camcorder line degrade over the years in favour of consumer-grade "features" like making them ever smaller and smaller, giving them touch screen, and making the costs lower at the expense of essential features like external mic jacks, usability, longevity, low-light ability, CCD size, etc. Every year something new comes out, and every year they are worse than before (from a video production perspective). A few years ago I saved up and bought a Sony VX2000. That camera was on the market for about 5 years, before finally being replaced by the VX2100, and even that was just an incremental upgrade and a change of casing color. Pro cameras last.

Maybe one day I'll buy a new HD cam, but for now DV is still the dominant standard and my VX2000 will continue to give me great video for as long as it lasts. Meanwhile, I've gone through 3 or 4 different editing computer configurations, and will continue to do so as things progress.

[FF_productions]

Congrats!


Thanks, I agree with your post as well. I know/hope this camcorder lives up to it's expectations. It will surely blow away my digital 8 camcorder.

Yeah, having a slow machine is a inconvienence but it isn't a necessity to have the fastest one. My videos will render faster, never was it said they would be better.