I'd like to see Bush admit this

[iTwitch]

"world would be better off today if the United States had never invaded Iraq — even if it means Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq." - Sen. John Rockefeller

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/topstories_story_252203351.html

[Thomas Veil]

That'll happen the same time the Pope trades in his tall hat for a yarmulka.

[beatsme]

"world would be better off today if the United States had never invaded Iraq — even if it means Saddam Hussein would still be running Iraq." - Sen. John Rockefeller

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/topstories_story_252203351.html

you gotta love Jay. He's probably the least corrupt politician this state has ever produced. 'Course, that's not saying a lot :D

[Dont Hurt Me]

Just today Bush's boss Cheney was saying Iraq was the right thing to do even if they had no WMDs. Talk about spin. What do you expect from someone who never served and had 5 deferrals to avoid Nam. No wonder ET wants nothing to do with us.:eek:

[YS2003]

Just today Bush's boss Cheney was saying Iraq was the right thing to do even if they had no WMDs.
It's just amazing to see how the current administration in DC is changing the reasons for the Iraq war. Maybe after 50 years later, the whole things will come out in open and everyone in the world will know how (deliberately) wrong their rationale for the war was (even though many people in the world are aware of it). It would be interesting to see the actual recorded conversations of the higher ups would be released in the future. This of course assumes data is not destroyed).

[Dont Hurt Me]

You mean like Bush's missing national guard time? How could we as a nation be so duped by these spinmasters. Is America that stupid? perhaps we are.

[poppe]

It's just amazing to see how the current administration in DC is changing the reasons for the Iraq war. Maybe after 50 years later, the whole things will come out in open and everyone in the world will know how (deliberately) wrong their rationale for the war was (even though many people in the world are aware of it). It would be interesting to see the actual recorded conversations of the higher ups would be released in the future. This of course assumes data is not destroyed).

That is a dream.... First off we will never learn about this. Like for example in school The only history things we ever learned about was American Revolution and Marting Luther King Jr.

Never ever ever ever ever got to Cold war or Nam...

Maybe some news company like dateline will come out with a special... but I doubt it...

You mean like Bush's missing national guard time? How could we as a nation be so duped by these spinmasters. Is America that stupid? perhaps we are.

I wouldn't say we got duped I would say American's were put in a situation where if we expressed our political oppinion we were considered haters of freedom. Or haters of America. or Lovers of terror. And then the news... Oh man the news... Turn on one channel and you believe one thing and turn on another and its completely different... How is anyone supposed to make an educated decision about what is right and what is wrong when the news is more Biased then TNT or FX...

[Don't panic]

That'll happen the same time the Pope trades in his tall hat for a yarmulka.
is this a step in the right direction?
http://images.ibsys.com/2006/0906/9795508_320X240.jpg

[KingYaba]

Republicans say there was flawed intelligence to be sure, but they insist there was no attempt to mislead the public.
Our judgment was misled by the poor intel.


I'd like Bush to admit that making a well thought out plan (about Iraq) does not aid the terrorists. The US not having a plan helps the terrorists. It shows we are disorganized and ill-prepared to take on this monumental challenge. Executing a plan well spells out S U C C E S S.

"Oooo the terrorists will hide and wait if we set a timeline"

Good, then we'll have time to rebuild Iraq. Rebuild schools, rebuild hospitals, rebuild basic infrastructure. all while the US military trains soldiers, police officers, firemen, and others. So when the terrorists do pop out again, Iraq will be able to hold it's own.

For the record, who has developed a plan? I have only seen the Libertarian Party's plan. (http://www.lp.org/exitplan.pdf#search=%22libertarian%20plan%20for%20pulling%20out%20of%20iraq%22) Can anyone find the Republican, or Democrat plan? I can't. :(

[xsedrinam]

Originally Posted by Thomas Veil
That'll happen the same time the Pope trades in his tall hat for a yarmulka.
is this a step in the right direction?
http://images.ibsys.com/2006/0906/9795508_320X240.jpg
Maybe a little more Harley

[DZ/015]

The world would be better off if oddballs like Rockefeller shut up. His disertation is absurd, at best.

[zimv20]

The world would be better off if oddballs like Rockefeller shut up. His disertation is absurd, at best.
Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. -- George Orwell

[beatsme]

The world would be better off if oddballs like Rockefeller shut up. His disertation is absurd, at best.

you mean "dissertation," right? I don't think that word applies in this context.

[DZ/015]

Ooops, my bad on the spelling. I do mean his dissertation. Still, he is off base. Leaving Sadam in power would be a mistake. The world is better off with him in prison, awaiting his fate.

[hulugu]

For the record, who has developed a plan? I have only seen the Libertarian Party's plan. (http://www.lp.org/exitplan.pdf#search=%22libertarian%20plan%20for%20pulling%20out%20of%20iraq%22) Can anyone find the Republican, or Democrat plan? I can't. :(

The Republican plan is 'stay the course' the Democratic plan is to bitch about the first, I think.

From "The Democratic Plan to Protect and Restore our Leadership in the World:"

Ensure 2006 is a year of significant transition to full Iraqi sovereignty, with the Iraqis assuming primary responsibility for securing and governing their country and with the responsible redeployment of U.S. forces.
Insist that Iraqis make the political compromises necessary to unite their country and defeat the insurgency; promote regional diplomacy; and strongly encourage our allies and other nations to play a constructive role.
Hold the Bush Administration accountable for its manipulated pre-war intelligence, poor planning and contracting abuses that have placed our troops at greater risk and wasted billions of taxpayer dollars.
Vague and obsessed with the Bush Administration. Damnit.

[maxterpiece]

Ooops, my bad on the spelling. I do mean his dissertation. Still, he is off base. Leaving Sadam in power would be a mistake. The world is better off with him in prison, awaiting his fate.
The world? America? I disagree.

The only place that might actually end up being better off is Iraq. But the only precedent we have here for a country invading a country and trying to force democracy on that country is vietnam. The US did not have the wearwithal to try to put down guerrilla insurgency. Our people did not have the patience. We are even shorter on patience now. Back then there was a draft - there hasn't been a draft hereyet. Bush can't keep extending soldiers' tours forever. Even if he does, there aren't enough troops there now. THe place is in chaos.

Unless Bush performs a diplomatic miracle here and manages to work around all the mounting contempt that most of the rest of 1st world countries are developing for him, this war is going to continue to be America's problem. There's no plan here to fix things. There's no sense of order. Even the decisions that the new Iraqi democracy has made have been extremist.

There are a lot of dangerous countries with strong religious extremist, anti-western movements that surround Iraq. These countries have a lot of money and power. They are going to be able to exert a very strong influence on an Iraq that is and will remain much less stable than it was under Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein was a bad man who did bad things to his people. We, unfortunately, are not and have never been in the position to go in there and oust him by force. The middle east is just too volatile.

I could go on if you need me to.

[maxterpiece]

The Republican plan is 'stay the course' the Democratic plan is to bitch about the first, I think.

From "The Democratic Plan to Protect and Restore our Leadership in the World:"


Vague and obsessed with the Bush Administration. Damnit.

I agree that the democrats are being morons... completely impractical. The issue is not a deadline for withdrawal, the issue is making Iraq work well enough so that it isn't going to revert back to a dictatorship like Saddam Hussein, or even more likely, someone more extreme and anti-western.

I think in order for there to be stability there needs to be a multinational force in there - I think the symbolism of the United Nations, Europe, USA, all being committed to creating a stable Iraq is essential. It transforms this in the eyes of many (most importantly many Iraqis), into a force that is there to do good, and not jsut there to build another guantanamo in Iraq (I don't mean the army prison, I mean the army base that is off of CUBA as a result of the Spanish-American War in 1898).

I think that many Iraqis believe (I think rightfully), that we went in there because of $/oil, and because we wanted to buff up our military strength in an area rich in what is quickly becoming the most valuable of natural resources. A multinational force would have credibility. Something George Bush has none of in the INternational community, let alone in Iraq.

Europe is not gonna work with Bush or a Bush clone. Ever. He is an icon for this imperialist, cowboy attitude. Even if he turned into an angel I don't think people will ever lose that association. There's gotta be someone new in there who is willing to work with the rest of the world.

SO far, even though democrats have CONTINUED to be too spineless to look past the weekly polls and actually put forward a logical plan, at least they are aware of how valuable and how tarnished our international reputation has become, and of how difficult that has made it for our country. At least tehy aren't George Bush. I just wish they would redirect their energy from reminding us of that simple fact and into standing for something and setting out a brave and new vision.

[Glen Quagmire]

Ooops, my bad on the spelling. I do mean his dissertation. Still, he is off base. Leaving Sadam in power would be a mistake. The world is better off with him in prison, awaiting his fate.

Are all those brave US (and other) soldiers who died fighting a phony war in Iraq better off?
Are all the Iraqis who have died in the insurgency better off?
Is the US's reputation in the world better off?
Is the US's financial situation better off?

[Queso]

The sad thing is so many of us where saying this before the invasion, but all the haters were screaming at us for being "terrorists lovers".

I would so like to have been proved wrong this time.

[Thomas Veil]

is this a step in the right direction?
http://images.ibsys.com/2006/0906/9795508_320X240.jpgNo, but it sends an interesting message to the gay community. :D

[Dont Hurt Me]

Are all those brave US (and other) soldiers who died fighting a phony war in Iraq better off?
Are all the Iraqis who have died in the insurgency better off?
Is the US's reputation in the world better off?
Is the US's financial situation better off?Thank you, the Neocons/Chickenhawks like Bush Cheney took us for a ride. Just like the chickenhawks did in Vietnam and how many years did it take before we figured that out. Meanwhile a guy named Bin Laden is doing his Allah thing in Pakistan. Its sad to see the worlds biggest coward Cheney still insisting Iraq was the right thing:rolleyes: over 2,500 dead, 400 billion$$$ later,100,000 Iraqi's dead how many insurgents did that create along with starting a civil war that can only end up with a more powerful Sunni state. Way to go George. You handled Iraq as well as you handled Katrina. Our presidents policys are a failure.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm not sure I understand why everyone who believes that the Iraq invasion was a bad idea still feels the need to qualify that conclusion with statements about how Saddam was such a bad guy. As if nobody knew. Somewhere on the average of 1,000 Iraqis die violently every month now. Objectively, in terms of its impact on the Iraqi people, how much worse was the Saddam regime? If Evil Saddam was the person responsible for brutalizing his countrymen for 20 years, then who is to blame for the carnage in Iraq today?

[Black&Tan]

Saddam was a bad man. Okay. What gives the US the right to invade and occupy a foreign country because the leader doesn't measure up to our western standards?

Was he just an easy target? WMD holds no water anymore.

[Thanatoast]

Our judgment was misled by the poor intel.
I'm gonna have to call you on this one. The intelligence was fine, it was just that the supporting bits were cherry-picked the non-supporting bits were ignored and/or retaliated against. (Plame)

If anything the failure of intelligence was in our leaders, not our spies.

[Queso]

Was he just an easy target? WMD holds no water anymore.
No. You see the Neocons, just like everyone at the extreme ends of politics, have this insane belief that they are 100% right 100% of the time. Therefore they genuinely believed that the Iraqis would welcome them with open arms, American companies would profit from rebuilding the country for a few years, the oil would flow, and the new super-democratic Iraqi Government would grow in popularity and be a shining light for all the citizens of the Middle East. Anyone who disagreed with them just didn't really understand the issues, because it never entered their heads that they could be wrong.

That is what the USA has put into Government. Naive idealists who cannot foresee the correct consequences of their actions because they can't countenace that their decisions may not be the correct course. They have a fanatical belief that their actions are right.

The irony is they are so similar in this attitude to the mentality of the suicide bomber, the thing they say they despise more than anything else.

[mactastic]

I'm gonna have to call you on this one. The intelligence was fine, it was just that the supporting bits were cherry-picked the non-supporting bits were ignored and/or retaliated against. (Plame)

If anything the failure of intelligence was in our leaders, not our spies.
The alternative to the scenario you propose is that Bush knowingly gave a Medal of Freedom to a guy who snookered him. I'm not sure how that paints Bush in any better light than the cherry-picking does.

[mactastic]

That is what the USA has put into Government. Naive idealists who cannot foresee the correct consequences of their actions because they can't countenace that their decisions may not be the correct course. They have a fanatical belief that their actions are right.
It sure will be nice when the adults are back in charge again...

[Blue Velvet]

The issue is not a deadline for withdrawal, the issue is making Iraq work well enough so that it isn't going to revert back to a dictatorship like Saddam Hussein, or even more likely, someone more extreme and anti-western.



That could be just a bit too late, methinks. Where are all the people crowing now about kicking ass and bringing freedom? Please, let's see that idiot of a president back on the USS Abraham Lincoln in a flight jacket claiming the 'mission accomplished'.

Honestly, what a complete ******-up; creating a huge problem where one didn't exist before. And this isn't one of your anti-war people; this is your military's assessment...


Marine colonel's Iraq report fuels US gloom

Iraq's biggest province has suffered a total breakdown in law and order in which al-Qaida has emerged as the dominant political force, according to descriptions of a classified US military intelligence review reported today.
The report, by the US marine corps colonel Peter Devlin, focuses on the vast, arid region of Anbar in the west, which contains the insurgent-held towns of Fallujah, Ramadi and Haditha.

The Washington Post quoted military officers who had seen the report as saying the area was "beyond repair".

"We haven't been defeated militarily, but we have been defeated politically - and that's where wars are won and lost," was one army officer's summary of the review quoted by the newspaper.

The same officer concluded that there were no functioning Iraqi institutions in the province, and that al-Qaida in Iraq, the insurgent group founded by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was Anbar's most powerful political force.

The report is believed to be the most negative one sent from the field in Iraq.

Mr Devlin has been stationed in Anbar since February and is regarded as one of the military's most respected and level-headed intelligence officers, adding to concern in Washington about his comments.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1870023,00.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/10/AR2006091001204.html

[mactastic]

Saw a bumper sticker this morning: "Mission accomplised, my ass!"

[yg17]

I'm all for withdrawling every single troop, and letting Saddam run the place. Regardless of what the right wants you to think, we're doing a terrible job, and frankly, I believe the Iraqis were better off with Saddam than with us. Our government shouldn't be running countries when we can't even run our own.

[mactastic]

...I believe the Iraqis were better off with Saddam than with us.
Certainly the Sunnis were better off with Saddam running the show. I doubt the Shia or the Kurds, or any other group, would say the same.

[Lau]

The sad thing is so many of us where saying this before the invasion, but all the haters were screaming at us for being "terrorists lovers".

I would so like to have been proved wrong this time.

Agreed.

I'm embarrassed to say that I did waver over whether the war was justified at the time. It embarrasses me to say that I wavered at all and didn't condemn it from the start.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Agreed.

I'm embarrassed to say that I did waver over whether the war was justified at the time. It embarrasses me to say that I wavered at all and didn't condemn it from the start.Your not alone, I voted for Bush one time and will allways be ashamed of that.

[mactastic]

Agreed.

I'm embarrassed to say that I did waver over whether the war was justified at the time. It embarrasses me to say that I wavered at all and didn't condemn it from the start.
If you had the information we now know, I doubt you would have wavered. The sick part is that the people in power did have the information that we all have now, and even The Big Dick himself says he'd do it all over exactly the same again, given the chance.

[maxterpiece]

Agreed.

I'm embarrassed to say that I did waver over whether the war was justified at the time. It embarrasses me to say that I wavered at all and didn't condemn it from the start.

Well back then the fact distorters were turned up to 250% power. It was like a freakin' hurricane of half-truths, distortions, undying barrage of Bush's rationale all through the media. The fact distorters appear to be burning out as of late and the bare reality of what this war is about is becoming blatantly obvious.

[Blue Velvet]

I'm embarrassed to say that I did waver over whether the war was justified at the time. It embarrasses me to say that I wavered at all and didn't condemn it from the start.

Don't be embarrassed. I was also ambivalent... but the majority of us were fed a complete pack of lies, framed in such a way as to sound completely reasonable. :mad:

[MacRumorUser]

http://www.jeb.be/images/bush/CuriousGeorge.jpg

[calculus]

Conclusive proof of evolution

[Lau]

Your not alone, I voted for Bush one time and will allways be ashamed of that.

Christ, I wouldn't have wavered over that. ;) :D

If you had the information we now know, I doubt you would have wavered. The sick part is that the people in power did have the information that we all have now, and even The Big Dick himself says he'd do it all over exactly the same again, given the chance.

I know, and I think something's changed. Although I knew people in power weren't to be trusted, I did still believe what they said up to a point. And I will never trust anyone like that ever again.

Large British political rant moved here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2821184#post2821184), as it seemed more appropriate.

[rdowns]

You left out a few


http://www.kein-plan.de/bitte-ziehen-sie-durch/pics/Bush_-_CuriousGeorge.jpg

[IJ Reilly]

To clarify/reiterate my point, I think it's long past time for those of us who have argued that the Iraq invasion was a blunder of epic proportions to stop qualifying this opinion. Talk instead about how Iraq has become even more of death trap for its citizens than it was under Saddam. Focus on how, instead of becoming a "beacon of democracy" in the Middle East, Iraq is now the single largest contributor to regional instability. Focus instead on how the Iraq invasion tilted the balance of power in the region towards the enemies of the West. It is as clear now as it ever could be who was on the right side in this debate.

[Mike Teezie]

To clarify/reiterate my point, I think it's long past time for those of us who have argued that the Iraq invasion was a blunder of epic proportions to stop qualifying this opinion. Talk instead about how Iraq has become even more of death trap for its citizens than it was under Saddam. Focus on how, instead of becoming a "beacon of democracy" in the Middle East, Iraq is now the single largest contributor to regional instability. Focus instead on how the Iraq invasion tilted the balance of power in the region towards the enemies of the West. It is as clear now as it ever could be who was on the right side in this debate.

Excellent post. I think you are dead on here.

Can anybody forward this to Howard Dean's office?

[mactastic]

Excellent post. I think you are dead on here.

Can anybody forward this to Howard Dean's office?
I think Howard's already gotten this message. Forwarding it to the DLC would be much more helpful.

[skunk]

Talk instead about how Iraq has become even more of death trap for its citizens than it was under Saddam.My guess is that a fair number of Shia and Kurds would be happier under Saddam than in this present mess.

[pseudobrit]

My guess is that a fair number of Shia and Kurds would be happier under Saddam than in this present mess.

It may not have been ideal for them, but at the time there was an ability to go along to get along.

I think Bush and the GOP are total ****ups and borderline psychopaths who are inching us towards fascism, but in the meantime I can go along to get along and do what I can to change the government for the better.

If Blair wants to invade and liberate though, I'll participate in a staged photo-op where we tear down a GWB statue in some town square.

[aquajet]

I'm beginning to feel sorry for all the monkeys that have been affected by all this.

[adroit]

You left out a few


http://www.kein-plan.de/bitte-ziehen-sie-durch/pics/Bush_-_CuriousGeorge.jpg

I'm confused. Why would anyone want to insult all those chimps? :confused:

[yg17]

I'm confused. Why would anyone want to insult all those chimps? :confused:


All of those chimps threw one too many pieces of **** so they deserve to be punished.

[KingYaba]

I don't see how posting pictures of chimps and GW helps us? Am I the only one who finds that completely retarded?

[solvs]

The world would be better off if oddballs like Rockefeller shut up.
Yes, he and the rest of us in the ~70% minority who think we never should have invaded Iraq should just shut up. Because the best thing to do in a democracy, especially when things are going to horribly, is to not say anything. Ok, so maybe the Saddam comment was a step further than most people want to go, but he still has every right to say it. And based on how things are going, it was actually better for some people. It was certainly better for us and most of those who've been affected by our botched invasion. To answer your question though IJ, it's because we need a qualifier to say we aren't siding with the terrorists and still think Saddam was a bad guy (as if the 2 have anything in common) because that's what the other side tries to equate when someone says they're against the Iraq war. Ridiculous, but there it is.

If you disagree with how poorly this war has been planned and waged you're against the troops, unpatriotic, a terrorist sympathizer, a Nazi, you blame America first, and all sorts of other things that even if you aren't you still somehow are because those who have no defense can only go on the offense.

[skunk]

I don't see how posting pictures of chimps and GW helps us? Am I the only one who finds that completely retarded?No, except that I'd take exception to your use of the word "retarded"...

[maxterpiece]

I don't see how posting pictures of chimps and GW helps us? Am I the only one who finds that completely retarded?

I could just go on another rant if you like, set these fools straight...:eek:

[solvs]

No, except that I'd take exception to your use of the word "retarded"...
Dunno, think that describes the subject pretty well. Bush I mean, not the monkeys. I like monkeys.