Apple Provides Sneak Peak Of Media Center

[mtrctyjoe]

Wooop Deee Doooo..... I can spend $299 to watch my $14.99 non-HD Quality movie. No Way. This looks like a stinker to me.

[dual64bit]

This is a start, get it. Everyone is(was) expecting so much more, seriousely... there has to be a start, this is it. Apple will examine how the customers treat this product and develop future products/services based upon the comments and success of iTV.

When we wanted to land on the moon we didn't just build a rocket and land on it.. it took years.

HD, blueRay, etc.... all in due time.

[jordonringel]

I do not like the idea of having seperate units for everything. Example, I still need a DVD player, still need a satellite box, still need a universal remote, still need an iTV. Apple should stop half a$$'n and put an end to this nonsense and go all out with this idea. The future of a home theater (3-4 years from now) is buy a HDTV, a receiver, speakers, and an apple iTV Box(Rev. D). This box will have a blue-ray DVD player, HD TIVO satellite/cable programming(your choice), and front row computer all built into one. It MUST also come with a universal remote (LOGITECH HARMONY APPLE EDITION) that controls the TV, receiver, and iTV. I would have no problem dropping $2,000 on a device like this today or in 5 years.

[EagerDragon]

The other possible reason for the sneak-peak from Apple is that analysts on wall street have been talking up a storm about a video-capable Airport Express. This was unusual for the event - I've never seen analysts buy into so many of the obviously fake rumors. This morning an analyst even used the word "TubePort" to describe the potential release. He totally lost any credibility the moment he did that. Anyway - Wall Street's expectations were high and I think Steve Jobs had to give in a little bit in order to keep stock holders happy. Also, if you've read the recent reviews about Amazon's new Unbox service, everything comes down to the fact that you ultimately pay the same price (if not more) for the file, wait for it to download, and are then limited to watching it on your computer or iPod.

They were expected to introduce an end-to-end solution that would allow people to download movies and play them back on a TV - unlike Amazon's Unbox service that limits viewing to the TV. So now Apple can't be grouped in the Amazon category and people will start buying movies with Apple's iTunes serivce since they know that within 3-4 months they'll have an end-to-end solution with the "iTV". Why get stuck with the Amazon service if you can't get it to the TV...
You can not lend the movie like you can with a DVD, you can not borrow from a friend and use it on this. If you want to share with friends you have to either invite them to your place...... Or use DVD's and play them on the computer and stream it to this. LOTS missing here. Sorry guys, ill save my $ for something else.

[WildPalms]

Well, two Tuesday's have come and gone and there is no Conroe based mid-tower.

You'd have to be real, proven idiot to still be peddling that line...

[Hattig]

I don't agree with the people who are saying 'stick a DVD drive into it' because everybodies got a DVD player already, and the technology is old - why spend money replicating existing functionality, and introducing another point of failure?

However I would like to see, eventually, an external matching BluRay player that interfaced with the iTV.

For what it does it looks useful, although for my music I'd rather have a high quality Squeezebox with all the nice audio equipment and navigation without a TV.

This will work if it allows you to rip DVDs, cut out the crap and go straight to the movie, and recompresses the DVD so that you don't need a 1TB file server to store a library of 100 DVDs. On the other hand, as I said, I'm quite happy to physically put a DVD into a DVD player, shock horror. Apple wants you to get your movies from iTMS, not DVDs. The price will have to change, or the quality improve (not going to happen soon because of limitations in the iPod video decoder chip which can only do 1.5mbit H.264 640x480 streams.

Also iTunes 7 hunted down all my hidden pr0n and stuck it in 'Movies' with nice graphic freezeframes. Thanks, I'd lost some of it.... i've also finally got iTunes to display compilations as a single entity whilst ordering the view by artist otherwise, hurrah. and the gapless playback is a noticable improvement.

[dmelgar]

and another thing, I don't thing my mini connects to my tv??
You can get a DVI-Video adapter which provides composite and S-Video output that you can use to connect your Mini to a TV. The Intel mini also has a digital audio output to connect to your surround sound TV, and a remote control to run Frontrow.

[mizzoucat]

I already have one of these and it even plays video games. I hate to say it, but Apple's "iTV" can't hold a candle to the Xbox 360.

[blybug]

Not that there's a terribly large number of ways to create a media hub device but seeing the iTV (exactly what I'd hoped and predicted except $100 more) (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2795957#post2795957) makes me wonder even more if this isn't Elgato's EyeHome dressed up in a shiny Apple wrapper. You really have to dig through Elgato's site to find the EyeHome anymore, as if they are sort of quietly phasing it out...like SoundJam before iTunes...

iTV
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57306&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1158112387

EyeHome
http://www.mjsoft.co.jp/pickup/057703/back.jpg

All the naysayers are missing the point. Take it from someone who has used the EyeHome for a couple years...having all your music, pictures, and videos (yes, Handbraked DVDs of course as a "video jukebox", but home videos! anyone here have kids!!?) instantly accessible on the living room TV is great. You just don't get it until you've used it. Just like you couldn't imagine what anyone would want with 10,000 songs in their pocket until you fondled your first iPod. And now with the Apple spit and polish, I'll buy one on Day #1 to replace the EyeHome.

[bhibbert]

The XBOX 360 along with Connect360 is a great option for playing your music and photos on a TV. Works in HD, is fast and you get an XBOX 360. Chances are if you wait a few months the X360 will also include an HD-DVD drive for not much more than the current price of the premium bundle.

In short, $299 for a standalone unit like this is way too expensive. The price point needs to be nearer $149 for it to be attractive.

[dongmin]

Questions: Will 802.11n be ready by Q1 2007??? I'm doubtful. Maybe a draft of the standard is there, but not the final. At least that's what Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11#802.11n) says.

802.11n will top out at 540 Mbps (220 Mbps typical) which should be more than OK for 720p. Anyhow, if you're dead set on streaming HD content from your Mac/PC and are worried about the bandwidth, get a bloody ethernet cable! It's just one cable, if you're so worried about it.

[jessica.]

So it seems from the coverage that the device has no optical drive, and no internal mass storage? Is that correct? And also that it is not itself a DVR? Don't get me wrong -- I'm reserving judgment. I just want to understand at this point. It sounds as if the basic purpose of the device is to draw high quality AV off a computer and onto a home entertainment system, sort of as the Roku SoundBridge did for the iPod's audio, but in a very Apple sort of way? In other words, it follows the computer-centric sort of model where a desktop or notebook Mac on the network is the "server"?
Why not just buy the appropriate cable for the ipod video for about $20?

[dongmin]

I don't agree with the people who are saying 'stick a DVD drive into it' because everybodies got a DVD player already, and the technology is old - why spend money replicating existing functionality, and introducing another point of failure?Yeah but wouldn't it be nice to have one slim box that handles everything??? It'd be so easy for Apple to add a DVD drive a la the Mini and charge $50 more for this 'souped-up' version.

I know why Apple's doing this and it has nothing to do with making people's lives easier. They want to encourage people to buy content directly off iTunes and not mess with Blockbuster, Netflix, whatever. But what about the large chunk of the consumer population who'd rather rent their video content, not buy.

[Richard Bleiche]

Steve has been looking thinner and thinner.

Am I the only one that noticed? Today he wore a regular shirt...no mock turtleneck. I bet his neck looked too thin in one.

Perhaps the sneak peak - which Apple NEVER does, because he wanted to announce this because won't be around by the 1st Q of 2007.

[EagerDragon]

who thinks it will be 802.11g or will it be 802.11n?

will that mean that all new macs Q1 07 also come with 802.11n as well?

or will the streaming from a 802.11g mac to the iTV just be crap?

if that's the case what will everyone with a current mac do, dongle it?

Steve should have been more explicit about the 802.11 or at least assured us that 802.11g macs will stream to it just fine.

Does anyone know if 802.11g can handle streaming video at that resolution?

I believe it has to be 802.11-Pre-N. No way to push that over G and still have much of a network left, and even then it will be stop and go. By the way, did you noticed he never showed the computer that was doing the streaming?

Only new Intel boxes will be able to do this or your will need a new device for the old computers, start adding the cost of new computer or old and adapter, new AirPort Extreme, new ITV (one per room with a TV) and you still have to get up and go to the den to change the DVD that is on your computer you also have to go to the den to change the channel on the cable box. Also you need a new Cable box for the den, an elgato to push the cable content into the PC/Mac and the rest of the stuff I mention to finaly get the signal to the TV for other than iTune content. By the time you get all that is cheaper to move the computer to the living room and use a cable to the TV. If it is a laptop there is little issue. If it is a mini, again little issue.

[digitalbiker]

Why not just buy the appropriate cable for the ipod video for about $20?


That's what I don't get about the people who are in love with this device.

I don't see where it provides any other functionality other than a wireless connection to your computer. Wireless video streaming is nice but $299.00 nice? I say more like $50.00 nice.

If it provided router fuctionality then maybe $120.00 nice.

Either Apple is holding a lot back or they really blew the market analysis. Similar to the overpricing of the Cube a few years back. It's a nice idea but the pricing is ridiculous.

[SPUY767]

I'm really impressed with the price. Obviously they're not gonna talk about all the features this early, but so far it looks good. Will it record TV? I guess "no."

Well, it's interesting that you bring that up, as that could be exactly the type of "One more thing" feature that we've grown accustomed to. This thing obviously has a built in hardware decoder for various types of media as ethernet is simply not fast enough to send uncompressed video data, and the box is doing the compression. I know for a fact that scientific atlanta, recently acquired by cisco, already had hardware h.264 codec chips out months ago. Let's say this thing is packed with one of those chips. It can take encoded video that you send it via 802.11x or, it could potentially encode video that it gets and send it across the network to the computer for storage. Food for thought, no doubt.

[stew278]

Same thing as the Eyehome (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/eyehome.html), just about ...

[Keebler]

regardless of whether or not they expand the features..the point is simple: this is a very exciting time in our generation. just think about it...you dload a newly released movie to your computer, zip it over to your TV and watch it.

think of how insane that is! some ppl will say...ah..c'mon get out of your house, but for some of us, ie. like me a stay-at-home Dad, I WOULD LOVE to dload a new movie in my house. wicked! the music aspect would be cool too...and maybe the pics as a slideshow. but the movies is where it's at for me.

maybe they add to it...maybe they don't. maybe they add more component capability like dvd players etc..etc.. but i love where it is going.

gotta love apple..still innovating.

i think the entire movie industry just went *bump*.

sure amazong and some others got into it first, but they aren't apple and ppl watch what apple will do and go for it.

giddy up! :)

[stew278]

And now with the Apple spit and polish, I'll buy one on Day #1 to replace the EyeHome.

Whoops - didn't see your post there about EyeHome blybug. What makes you want to replace it though with the upcoming iTV? Tell us more about your EyeHome - what you like/hate about it, etc.

THNX

[SAN66]

I think its a decent deal, with one of these (And when we finally get a iTMS TV Show store in Canada), I could ditch my cable subscription (-$50 per month), buy the shows I want (~$30 per month), sell my cable box (-$250) and buy an iTV or probably a Mac Mini with a DVI connector to my TV.

I'm dissapointed they don't offer downloads of HD movies, but I'm sure that will happen in the future.

Now one thing I find odd. They're offering these new TV shows and movies in DD 5.1, which is great, but my iMac only does stereo, and the only downside to using a mac mini as a media center at the moment is its meager Stereo sound output.

All I need is a digital audio out port on my mac mini and it would be perfect as a media center. Everything else can be third party. Audio, unfortunately can't.

I don't know why all these post are pooh pooing about iTVs lack of DVD drive or TV Tuner. If you want a DVD Drive, get a mini (then use it to play games too). TV Tuners are a waste, unless they include cablecard (which most people won't use) or simplu receive useless analogue signals (which is redundant)

I love the interface for the iTV, its awesome, can't waint until they update Front Row to be the same.

[jwsmiths]

Who cares if it has a hard drive if you hve at least one other computer on your network you can "share" a folder and then the iTV will act as if it does have a hard drive..

My guess.. iTV is a mini with no optical drive, a very small hard drive (to store the software and hold a small local cache) and an Intel video chip that can do HD formats

I can envision a third party device that has the same form factor as the iTV so it could stack on or under it. This gadget would have a cable TV tunner and digitizer and connect to the iTV via USB. This way cable TV shows could be saved automatically to your iTunes library where they would show up in the Front Row menu. I doubt Apple would offer this but I'll bet someoe else will.

Is the Ethernet port 100BaseT or Gigabit? How many iTVs can you have on one network. Can a Mac Pro stream 2, 10 or 20 video streams. I can see this used in an educational setting. A school could keep large numbers of recored lectures on a server. Students could water on big screens, thier PC/Mac or on an iPod. There are uses for this other than to feed the typical brain dead TV zombie

The iTV is probably NOT a mini with a a different set of I/O ports - the cost of building that would probably be $299 in and of itself not including R&D and would thus leave $0 profit for Apple - bad move. It is probably somewhere on the order of a G3 in terms of CPU and it probably has a dedicated video chip to do the MPEG4/H.264 decoding and is capable of supporting various HD resolutions. I doubt that we'll see a USB TV Tuner - that would require the iTV to have drivers for it - unlikely Apple has been granted the support of it's sales partners to build a Tivo. It probably has GigE since all of Apple's current products have GigE (or in the case of APE/APEX will receive updates to include 802.11n which I would assume this product uses and GigE when this is released). The USB port probably exists so that iPods specifically can be plugged into this thus instantly adding your friend's library or your portable library to your TV without the need to stream anything. I doubt this thing will even do print-serving as it is designed for living rooms (how many people have printers in their living rooms? And yes I realize not everyone will use this in their living room - but Apple tends to design products perfectly for ONE task and not try to load them down with tons of extra gadgetry that isn't needed - but if it does do print serving so much the better :) ) I think the limit as to how many clients can be on a network is probably determined by the capacity of the network. Just guesses though.

[age234]

Steve has been looking thinner and thinner.

Am I the only one that noticed? Today he wore a regular shirt...no mock turtleneck. I bet his neck looked too thin in one.

Perhaps the sneak peak - which Apple NEVER does, because he wanted to announce this because won't be around by the 1st Q of 2007.
:rolleyes:

Apple released a statement awhile back almost laughing that people were so concerned. True, he had cancer and all, but I believe they had to cut out a portion of his stomach, which would tend to make someone thinner over time.

[EagerDragon]

Wow, a TON OF YOU totally miss the iTV purpose, to stream content FROM YOUR MAC! That's why no tuner, no storage, no anything!! Does Airport Express have storage, an antenna, etc?!? NO!!!

I love this! I want one today! I'm going to get a huge HD, maybe two of them and start my stored media collection on my G5 that I can wirelessly access in my HT room from the iTV's wireless remote!! I love it!! Music, Family photos in a slide show, eyegato to record HD programs!! Awesome!!!

This so rocks and will make a ton of money for Apple! I can't wait, this is truly what I've been looking for as there's no HDMI out on my G5!!
Not really, we get the point, but we also see that we can save a lot with a $5 cable by putting a computer next to the TV and get a better video than if we transmit it over the air. For those in the 802.11N, it is not here yet, and may not be here soon. There is a preliminary N for 2007 and a formal ratification in 2008. If you buy pre-N buy from 1 source so it is compatible. Also your old G5 will need a new wireless card, your old mini the same and your old laptop will need a new PCMIA card or a USB adapter. Still it will be subsecptible to interference even with caching, it just depends on the source and lenght of the interference. Hard wired cable its lots better and cheaper. Eitherway you need a computer, it is just where to locate the computer.

[digitalbiker]

regardless of whether or not they expand the features..the point is simple: this is a very exciting time in our generation. just think about it...you dload a newly released movie to your computer, zip it over to your TV and watch it.

think of how insane that is! some ppl will say...ah..c'mon get out of your house, but for some of us, ie. like me a stay-at-home Dad, I WOULD LOVE to dload a new movie in my house. wicked! the music aspect would be cool too...and maybe the pics as a slideshow. but the movies is where it's at for me.

maybe they add to it...maybe they don't. maybe they add more component capability like dvd players etc..etc.. but i love where it is going.

gotta love apple..still innovating.

i think the entire movie industry just went *bump*.

sure amazong and some others got into it first, but they aren't apple and ppl watch what apple will do and go for it.

giddy up! :)

OK so what is the improvement over Directv Pay-per-View. Order the movie online or with a touchtone phone. Boom the movie comes via satellite to your TV in full high-def. Current price $3.99.

[carfac]

Originally Posted by Kid Red
Wow, a TON OF YOU totally miss the iTV purpose, to stream content FROM YOUR MAC! That's why no tuner, no storage, no anything!! Does Airport Express have storage, an antenna, etc?!? NO!!!


Kid, I think YOU miss the point. With no storage or disk drive (of whatever type)- and the small form factor that does not look like it would ever support this, all you have here is a video Airport. Period. As you said, "no tuner, no storage, no anything"- that just leaves an airport and a couple of video outs.

Maybe you have all the money in the world, but 299 for an airport is pretty extreme. For what it is, it is overpriced by double- at least. Do you really feel good about dropping three bills on a wireless reciever?

Sure, we would all like to see tuners, drives, opticals, but realistically, that is not happening at this price point. To make this work as a DVR, you need at least 250 Gig these days- thats, what, 30 hours HD, right? Think one of those will even fit in one of these cases- no way. ANd would not happen in a bigger case at 299.

No, I really think Apple failed on this one. Even for those few this may fit a need for can find much cheaper alternatives. For those that say, "Wait, we do not know all it can do", I say open your eyes- the form is not big enough for anything else, and the price is too low to be a REAL Media Center. I wish it were otherwise, I WANT an apple Media Center- and I am prepared to pay for it. But this is not it- this is a mistake.

[bretm]

the users at macpredict got the nano and shuffle update dates spot on - shouldn't be too hard to pick the iTV Release Date (http://macpredict.com/events/Apples-iTV-Release-Date) in the lead up to christmas.

I just hope Apple isn't going totally consumer and forgetting the computers!

Errrr... they came out with ALL the computers 6 months earlier than planned / announced. Their xeon is $1000 cheaper than the exact same specs at Dell. The laptop processors will probably be updated in a few weeks. Chill.

[technocoy]

He didn't even tell us everything about it... So all the assumptions are just that.

It has two HD outputs for a reason, and it ain't for streaming 640x480 content... thats MY assumption.

plus, aren't rocketboom broadcasts in HD? and aren't most of the trailers on quicktime being pushed as HD... Steve is moving on a direction here.... also... iMovie has HD editing, but no way to effectively output to HDTVs...

AND there are pieces of the puzzle that steve just isn't going to throw out there for the rest of the industry to bite on before it's released...

[carfac]

It just hit me- what this REALLY needs to make it work. What would REALLY be innovative on Apples part.

Obviously, to be a media Center, it needs tuners (at LEAST 2, better 4), 250 Gigs HD, an iTune/Front Row to TV Schedule interface and recording mechanism (Tive Programming).. and could use BR/HD-DVD, or at least that option.

But what this REALLY needs is for the unit to CONTROL the "parent" Mac. As more than one person here has mentioned, who wants to go upstairs to change the programming on the mac to watch something downstairs. So, to make this work, the iTV needs to be a slave, but control the parent...

D

[suzerain]

Um....12 pages into this...I don't know...my eyes glazed over, but people are still talking about DVR. Let me be the one, then, to point out the obvious:

Why the hell would Apple want to expend one ounce of effort to create a DVR when they are selling TV shows?

Am I crazy?

I mean, I *want* an Apple DVR as much as anyone, but I think there's a very slim chance we'll ever see one, unless Apple's TV sales model falls flat on its face (which it doesn't seem to be).

I think the option for free TV will simply be podcasts..."channels" are quickly becoming irrelevant. The biggest thing for me, if I was considering dumping cable, is: how will I watch, like, the World Cup? Apple needs to have a streaming (as in video from the outside world, not inside your home) option for live events, and then they will have a complete pay-per-view solution.

[gugy]

Kid, I think YOU miss the point. this is a mistake.

well, we do not know all the information regarding this product at this time.
I think you are jumping to conclusions very soon.
The only thing I know is that between your opinion and Steve Jobs thinking, I rather choose Steve. No offense.

[bretm]

Kid, I think YOU miss the point. With no storage or disk drive (of whatever type)- and the small form factor that does not look like it would ever support this, all you have here is a video Airport. Period. As you said, "no tuner, no storage, no anything"- that just leaves an airport and a couple of video outs.

Maybe you have all the money in the world, but 299 for an airport is pretty extreme. For what it is, it is overpriced by double- at least. Do you really feel good about dropping three bills on a wireless reciever?

Sure, we would all like to see tuners, drives, opticals, but realistically, that is not happening at this price point. To make this work as a DVR, you need at least 250 Gig these days- thats, what, 30 hours HD, right? Think one of those will even fit in one of these cases- no way. ANd would not happen in a bigger case at 299.

No, I really think Apple failed on this one. Even for those few this may fit a need for can find much cheaper alternatives. For those that say, "Wait, we do not know all it can do", I say open your eyes- the form is not big enough for anything else, and the price is too low to be a REAL Media Center. I wish it were otherwise, I WANT an apple Media Center- and I am prepared to pay for it. But this is not it- this is a mistake.

Maybe you've completely missed the point as well. The DVR will be whatever mac you have with whatever drive you have. Perhaps Tuner will be on the production model or via USB, etc. Then, it transmits BACK to the computer for recording.

[bretm]

Off topic, but how do you get your broadband internet? DSL? I guess DSL requires me to pay for a landline phone for another $20 per month, as I currently do not have a landline phone. Then, there is the DSL fee itself. Basic cable, broadband + HDTV is $62 per month right now. If I go with DirecTV, I would end up with DirecTV fees + $40 per month for DSL. Overall more expensive than cable.

If I recall, they recently passed a law so that the phone co has to offer DSL without landline. Perhaps it hasn't passed yet. You might want to check into that.

[tack]

I'm starting to think that everyone on this forum has a desktop.

What frustrates me about what this device appears to be is that it requires a desktop computer somewhere that is always on. Otherwise you need to go grab your laptop from whatever room you left it in and plug it in any time you want to use it to watch a movie or listen to music.

I would like something that is NOT a computer, that I never have to connect a keyboard or mouse to that I can use to access my media.

Now if this device supports adding a usb hard drive (or can use a network drive) that you can sync to like an ipod, then I'll be interested. But if streaming is the only option then I think it is of minimal use to laptop users.

What would be really cool is if you could connect a usb drive to it and use that as the source for your media as well as the location that time machine uses to back up your data.

[carfac]

Maybe you've completely missed the point as well. The DVR will be whatever mac you have with whatever drive you have. Perhaps Tuner will be on the production model or via USB, etc. Then, it transmits BACK to the computer for recording.

Maybe I have... but do you really think they can fit a tuner in that little box? If it is another idd on box, it kind of defeats the purpose, looks fugly, and is not an all in one solution. But if it could send it back to the Mac, that would be good, yes.

But my basic point is this- 299 for an enhanced airport is insane.

bretm:

IF the unit would send it back- you have another problem- how to control it. You could MAYBE change channels with the Apple remote, but I doubt you could easily set it all up and record. And make it all pretty in a nice package...

Just a thoihgt...

[Carl Spackler]

I think this thing looks great, a bit pricey, but c'mon, it's Apple afterall. I think everything they make is overpriced until I've had it for a month. It's a quality product, of course it will be more than similar items. It's simple and elegant in my book, just like everything else I have from Apple.

It would be nice if it comes with a BluRay add-on, like someone suggested.

I also believe this has great appeal to audio/videophiles. It offers nothing but upper-crust outputs, it doesn't even sport s-video. I would imagine it pumps out e very clean signal as it doesn't appear to be overrun with a myriad of electronic bells and whistles to create interference. I've run my iPod through a TurboDock II to a pair of Vandersteens and also to my beloved Maggies. I'm greatly impressed with Apple Lossless and the majority of music on my iPod is just that. I cannot see the audio or video quality of the iTV disappointing anyone, because the quality is up the consumer. Apple knows that a great deal of the content people will watch and listen to with the iTV is going to be provided by the owner and the iTV will be there to support it. Also, I would be shocked if hi-def content on the iTunes Store didn't accompany this release. We could be looking at March 2007 as a release date. I wouldn't be surprised if the iTV support greater than 1080p for presentation purposes. I can easily see these things feeding content to projectors and displays in museums.

I like my TV, but I'm not at all sad about the iTV not having PVR or TV Tuner capabilities. Almost everyone I know has their PVR through their local providers. To me, I'd think it would be a hassle to have to gather local schedules for menus. Same reason we'll never see an Apple phone, it's too regional and too many resources would have to be spend on ensuring too much is covered. I think Apple wants to make something that can go on the shelf anywhere in the world with little adjustment.

[bree]

It seems that people have assumed that the iTV won't be ready until next year and would miss the christmas season. But Jobs said Q1 2007. He didn't say spring or anything like that, but the first quarter of 2007. Assuming that this is the fiscal year, wouldn't that be different from the calendar year? Or in other words, isn't Q1 actually christmas season of the previous year?

So if Jobs was actually referring to the the fiscal year, the iTV would be ready for christmas after all!

[beaster]

I cannot see the audio or video quality of the iTV disappointing anyone, because the quality is up the consumer. Apple knows that a great deal of the content people will watch and listen to with the iTV is going to be provided by the owner and the iTV will be there to support it.

But that's just it - where is the HD content going to come from? Basically 3 choices that can be done LEGALLY from a Mac by joe-average Mac owner, without going through some messy analog loophole: 1) streaming directly off a Blu-ray disc (can't legally rip a copy-protected disc to the hard drive). 2) iTMS download, assuming they start selling HD versions. 3) User-shot home video on an HD camera. Did I miss any?

1) might become a reality when Blu-ray drives become a reasonably-priced add-on to Macs, maybe sometime next year? But then you're still renting/buying Blu-ray media from someone other than Apple (i.e. Netflix). Plus by the time you spend $299 on the iTV and however much more for a Blu-ray drive for your Mac, you could have bought a standalone player.

2) would require massive storage capacity on the Mac for even a modest movie library, or burnable Blu-ray drives/media (not cheap), plus mega-bandwidth or slick compression improvements. Possible, but still have the storage problem (after all, they're selling movies, not renting them).

3) A non-issue until HD video cameras come down in price.

I really like the overall idea, but w/out HD content, I'm waiting.

-Sean

[zimtheinvader]

why would I get this? I will get a used mac mini tomorrow for the same price and do everything it promises and so much more today, without dilluiting/destabilizing my current PB setup.

[hondaboy945]

Now, who wants to start speculating when this device will become the long-rumored TiVO killer? Doesn't look like there's much room back there to fit in a coax - seems like Apple missed out on a decent opportunity...

Is it a fair assumption to guess that Apple is reading this, or has already thought of this. The picture of the iTV and the preview is just that...a preview. It may well be a TiVo killer, and I am definetly cool with that; I hate my DVR (does not always work). Combine this media center with, most likely Bose accessories, and holy s@*t I am in.

[Whotheheck]

If this thing streams video from your Mac/PC, won't it be able to stream a DVD too? That way the iTV doesn't need a drive? And maybe it can stream blu-ray also?

BTW, isn't iTV an actual TV station? I swear one of my cable channels is called that. Is that why the name is temporary?

[~Shard~]

I think we all have to keep in mind that, as Jobs said, this is just a preview, and the iTV box is just a prototype in many respects as a result. It is subject to change, and I don't think anything is set in stone just yet. Even Jobs mentioning "802.11" for wireless - well, that could be "g" or "n", now couldn't it! :D

I compare it to Leopard - we got a sneak peak at WWDC, however all the really good features are still under wraps. ;) :cool:

[R.Youden]

When I first saw the webcast saying we are bring out an iTV I was so excited, it is something I have been looking at for ages. But when you break it down at the end of the day it is just a video airport and nothing more really. OK I has some HDTV outputs which is very cool but I dont have a HDTV (and at the price they are I aint getting one soon!).

I was going to get a mac mini and an eyeTV digital terestrial tuner and make a home cinema system out of that. OK it will cost more than the iTV but it has the following advantages that I can see at the moment:

The mac mini would be fully independent of my laptop i so it could be a true media 'hub'. I can remove all my music, photos, movies from my laptop and also be able to work on my laptop whilst listening to music through my TV if I wanted.

It is a computer. At the moment I only have one computer and that is a bit of a precarious situation as a few years ago my laptop went down and I had nothing to work on.

You can use an eyeTV as a DVR without having to have a TV cable lead running throughout the house to get to your main computer.

I still think that this will sell well but I just think tha if you want a true digital hub then go for the mac mini. This isnt a hub, it is more of a prosthetic limb connected to your mac.

[Evangelion]

When this thing surpasses the capabilities of my Windows media center and Xbox 360 combo then I will be impressed. Until then Apple is playing catch up to MCE and playing it poorly.

How much did you pay for that MCE/Xbox-combo?

[h00ligan]

yah so basically it does what an xbox 360 can do - a la media center extender.. but you know.. nothing else.

no thanks.

[Jimmieboy]

Looks cool. i can't wai until they're relleased. Won't be getting one until I've moved outta home. Maybe I can convince my parents to get one for themselves so I can 'show them how it works." :p

[exactjack]

I am really struck by just how many really geeky, elitist, techno-snobs there are posting here who are more interested in bending the world around them to their shape, than in doing what a smart business -- like Apple -- does: They actually look at the vast sea of real customers, and create new products that will sell in large numbers. Apple's customer is not 'you,' Mister (or Ms.) TechnoGeek. The customer here is Jane and Joe Everyman... the same people now buying the vast majority of iMacs, minis, and iPods. And, from that view, that's me: Joe Everyman.

I watch video of all qualities, including really screwy VHS tapes from 10-years ago with lines flickering through the image. I also watch some hi-def, with most stuff being generally broadcast or commercial DVD quality. I watch it all, as I am really into the stories portrayed in these movies and shows, and care much less about the gem-like perfection of the image. If you'll go out into the middle-class neighborhoods of the world and talk to real families, you'll find a prevalence of this same attitude. "Quality" is secondary to content to the mass market.

You, Mister TechnoGeek, may have a home stuffed with leading edge electronics... 102 inch plasmas... gigbit Ethernet everywhere... dedicated rackmount media servers... whatever. I am proud for you. But, Joe and Jane are out here with a 20-inch TV in the bedroom connected to a 5 yr old VCR and a 1 yr old DVD player, and they have a 27-inch CRT set, or 52-inch rear projection set in the living room connected to a cable box, a 2 yr old VCR, and a new DVD player (not "progressive scan," either... the mid-priced one from Target). We see flat panel sets when we shop, and hear a few friends brag about them... we are talking about buying one. We have a nice PC in the corner or in the bedroom... or, we're thinking about replacing the old PC, and are aware of the new Apple products. We're 'hip' enough to use some technology, but we don't live it and breathe it. We are avid iPod/iTunes users, and iTunes store shoppers.

That all said, I now see Apple showing a little box that I can plug into the 52-inch set in the living room wiht one cable. And, magically I can now watch any video that's on our PC on that TV set... AND can control it all with a little simple remote control that works with the PC back in the bedroom. My response is, "Wow, that's cool!" And, despite my somewhat backwards appearance to the technology cogniscenti of the world, I actually do spend cash on cool grdagets from time to time... like that $350 iPod I own. I have that $299 sitting here to spend on something simple and cool like this iTV box.

Joe and Jane don't know that ElGato exists, and would never dream of trying to figure out how to start hanging peripherals off their PC and getting multiple doodads working together. They're just not into that sort of tinkering. They have real lives. And, they just want to plug something in, and instantly have it work. And, they want to just push a button or two, sit down on their sofa, and watch their videos of choice. No hassle.

Welcome to the next era of transitioning Joe and Jane away from real-time content and into the world of content on demand. Apple really did just fire the magic bullet by showing us this one elegantly simple end to end solution possibility.

If you don't get it, you're probably not in Apple's vast target demograpic for the iTunes Store or the iTV. I am. I get it. And, I want two of these right now... for the living room and the bedroom.

[h00ligan]

i dont' want to burst your bubble, but joe everyman doesn't own a mac, he owns a dell he bought fot $499 on teh intarweb super special.

apple sells things to gadgeteers and "artists"

aside from the ipod - they don't sell anything in quantity - and this isn't going to be an exception.

[Jimmieboy]

Calm down dude. Sure some people aren't going to know hopw to use these devices. Thats why if you can't use it don't buy it. I'm sure that most people have frinds or children that can figure out how to use a piece of technology.

[exactjack]

i dont' want to burst your bubble, but joe everyman doesn't own a mac, he owns a dell he bought fot $499 on teh intarweb super special.

apple sells things to gadgeteers and "artists"

aside from the ipod - they don't sell anything in quantity - and this isn't going to be an exception.

You're pretty wrong here. Apple sells iPods, song files, and TV show files in vast quantities. And, this product is aimed into that sea of 50,000,000+ existing Apple customers.

And, you must have missed that the iTV is OS agnostic. Any OS with an iTunes client works as the host PC. No "Mac" required.

I love the way Apple patiently sits back, watching a market evolve, then offers an affordable little gadget that eliminates the need for special skills, and replaces several products with just this one plug-and-play solution. That's how to take fringe technology and get mainstream acceptance. Love it...

[macklos]

i dont' want to burst your bubble, but joe everyman doesn't own a mac, he owns a dell he bought fot $499 on teh intarweb super special.

apple sells things to gadgeteers and "artists"

aside from the ipod - they don't sell anything in quantity - and this isn't going to be an exception.

Joe Everyman wants to own a Mac and is on their way in the near future to buy one. Cuz they ain't just for gadgeteers and "artists" any more. That old adage is going away faster than you think.
And as stated this little box isn't OS dependent so even if Joe Everyman doesn't have a Mac now he can use iTunes for Windopes in the meantime until he wakes up one day with Apple on the brain and finds himself at the Apple store buying a Mac.

p.s. I think it was a very wise move for ole Steve to be so un-Apple like and give the world a preview into this particular product.

[a456]

In the UK ITV (Independent Television) is the group name for all regional broadcasting on the third analogue channel, and is also the name of further digital channels (ITV2, ITV3). I doubt therefore iTV will be permissible here because it has been a name associated with television for decades.

It will be interesting to see what this machine actually does though and whether it has the convenience and useability of the iPod, which needs to happen if it is going to succeed at the same level.

[MacMiniOwner]

I'm not sure what the fuss or confusion is, this is just a box that allows you to stream media from you Mac to yout TV and thats it. As it uses FrontRow I assume iTunes and iPhoto will have to be open on your host Mac and set to allow access.

I've been doing this for years with a chipped xbox which is far more flexible or you can buy a cheap network DVD player, this product is nothing new.

[fblack]

So it seems from the coverage that the device has no optical drive, and no internal mass storage? Is that correct? And also that it is not itself a DVR? Don't get me wrong -- I'm reserving judgment. I just want to understand at this point. It sounds as if the basic purpose of the device is to draw high quality AV off a computer and onto a home entertainment system, sort of as the Roku SoundBridge did for the iPod's audio, but in a very Apple sort of way? In other words, it follows the computer-centric sort of model where a desktop or notebook Mac on the network is the "server"?

Xcellent point.

I hope in the final configuration it has a DVD/CD player so I can get rid of any xtra components.

I love that it has HDMI, cox in my area does not support it and I can finally hook something up to the port on my plasma.

I like that they made it a hardware solution, just go to the store buy it and drop it among your current media center stuff. Even my folks should be able to do this...:)

[Philsy]

Does this unit allow you to browse and download films and TV shows from the iTunes Store direct from your TV, or do you have to go to your Mac to do that?

[Lebowski]

i am definately interested in this.

i already have 3 airport xpress' streaming my music, and home theaters systems in 3 rooms at home. this is just another piece of the puzzle in eliminating wires throughout the home.

i am a tad nervous as steve mentioned dolby surround for the itunes store movies, and not 5.1 (or better). I am a pretty serious audiophile, and my main theater setup is 7.1, the last thing i want to do is start to consolidate/replace my dvd collection (1000+) onto one of my macs with standard dolby surround. Until 5.1 digital is offered, i dont see myself downloading too many movies. However, just for the convienience of browsing my libraries and streaming slideshows alone make the iTV worth the money. Throw in 5.1 and Im sold. I would definately buy more than one, and know many others that would do so as well.

it will be interesting to see if there will be any kind of "zone" capability. Say I have my downloaded movies on my quad in the office (largest HD capacity-will probably hold majority of my media), and want to watch Cars in the theater, but the girlfriend wants to catch up on Lost in the bedroom.... both are stored on one mac, would it even be possible to stream seperate files to different iTVs? If that feature IS in fact possible, and apple incorperates it, I see this device as revolutionizing home entertainment. Imagine being able to pick up multiple boxes, and basically have a central server providing individual entertainment to various rooms of the house. Kids listening to their iTunes music in their rooms, while mom watches Desperate Housewives in the bedroom, and dad catches up on the NFL season pass on the couch. Sure, there are ways to do this now, but the equipment, install and knowledge to achieve it makes it out of reach for many. After the cost of the computer (which most people already have obviously) and a tv/stereo setup for each room, 300 bucks to create a total interactive solutions is a STEAL.

alot of whining is going on already about this product, no dvr, no drive, no storage.... well thats the point. to add all those things, you arent gonna fit it in a slick box like that, not to mention that most of the people interested in this device, already have a stereo/theater setup with DVD players (how many people do YOU know that DONT own a dvd player? - i have 9 at home and 2 in the car), and you surely arent going to get all those things for 3 bills.

overall, todays event couldnt have been better.... unless they would have released the iPhone so i can finally throw my RAZR off a building.

[huds]

So now Apple can't be grouped in the Amazon category and people will start buying movies with Apple's iTunes serivce since they know that within 3-4 months they'll have an end-to-end solution with the "iTV". Why get stuck with the Amazon service if you can't get it to the TV...

I think this is a key issue.... IMO Apple also need to take on board the feedback about the product today and will surely make modifications prior to release. From what I have read there are a number of very relevant issues already out there.

[Lebowski]

steve wanted to assure us that buying all this different media, and moving it all to a computer isnt all for not. it was un-apple, but necessary. too many people would have complained that having a ton of movies in your office, and not in your living room is a waste of time and money.

i mean jeez, they announced a pretty cool device months before its available, and people are STILL complaining. typical.


if they released itunes, and no ipod, who the hell would have bought music online? they would just buy the disc. the needed to go together, as this new device needs to go with the movie store.

apple has single handedly revolutionized the way we aquire our music, then tv shows (as the numbers obviously show), and now they are getting ready to do it for movies. they wont kill physical DVDs with it, much as i download some music, and others i purchase an actual disc at the store, they will just add another nice way to get it.

there are times when i am near a store and want to browse around and pick up a cd. but then if i am getting ready to travel, and late at night decide i want a few new albums, i hop on the ITMS and download them. Each method has its place and time.

[Passante]

This is the device I said was coming with the exception of the Hard Drive and I bet before it's released it has one.

Well it does have a usb port

[richat]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't Apple's Q4 wrapping up Sept 30th 2006? If this is correct then iTV is due as early as Oct 2006 in Q1 2007. soon enough to make a big splash in X-mas season.

If this is correct then the 2-3 week advance notice is likely designed to get us all talking about what features we want in this thing today... in it's first incarnation.

I personally wanted DVR functionality. Which may be possible with the USB port. maybe you can connect an external HD or external DVD Burner. Neither are very pricey anymore. Either should become available in an Apple designed box so they look nice next to or on top of iTV.

my 3 cents

Rich

[aswitcher]

I wonder if this means the death of the headless mac pro mini dream.

I need a Mac near my TV because I only have one aerial point. It now seems that I need to use a mini with its poor graphics card and small HDD, or to somehow fit and imac near my TV. Neither are good options for me.

I do wonder what new stuff Apple will bring out in the next quarter besides the shuffle.

[MacBram]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't Apple's Q4 wrapping up Sept 30th 2006? If this is correct then iTV is due as early as Oct 2006 in Q1 2007. soon enough to make a big splash in X-mas season...Yes, that's Apple's fiscal quarters, but I watched the QT of the event and I'm pretty sure Steve specifically said "calendar Q1 of 2007".

[BenRoethig]

So it seems from the coverage that the device has no optical drive, and no internal mass storage? Is that correct? And also that it is not itself a DVR? Don't get me wrong -- I'm reserving judgment. I just want to understand at this point. It sounds as if the basic purpose of the device is to draw high quality AV off a computer and onto a home entertainment system, sort of as the Roku SoundBridge did for the iPod's audio, but in a very Apple sort of way? In other words, it follows the computer-centric sort of model where a desktop or notebook Mac on the network is the "server"?

iTV is basically a better looking version and even higher priced version of this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6825322&st=media+extender&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1091101680429

[iGary]

Yes, that's Apple's fiscal quarters, but I watched the QT of the event and I'm pretty sure Steve specifically said "calendar Q1 of 2007".

He did. ;)

[steve9013]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

In a rare move, Apple provided a sneak peak of the long rumored Apple media center.


Don't be fooled by Apple showing an un-released product. This is no different than them showing the new Shuffle and saying it will ship in Oct. they completely just released the iTV, but since it wont ship till Q1 07, they're saying it's a secret thing they're working on since the release date could be up to six months away.

[Carl Spackler]

But that's just it - where is the HD content going to come from? Basically 3 choices that can be done LEGALLY from a Mac by joe-average Mac owner, without going through some messy analog loophole: 1) streaming directly off a Blu-ray disc (can't legally rip a copy-protected disc to the hard drive). 2) iTMS download, assuming they start selling HD versions. 3) User-shot home video on an HD camera. Did I miss any?

1) might become a reality when Blu-ray drives become a reasonably-priced add-on to Macs, maybe sometime next year? But then you're still renting/buying Blu-ray media from someone other than Apple (i.e. Netflix). Plus by the time you spend $299 on the iTV and however much more for a Blu-ray drive for your Mac, you could have bought a standalone player.

2) would require massive storage capacity on the Mac for even a modest movie library, or burnable Blu-ray drives/media (not cheap), plus mega-bandwidth or slick compression improvements. Possible, but still have the storage problem (after all, they're selling movies, not renting them).

3) A non-issue until HD video cameras come down in price.

I really like the overall idea, but w/out HD content, I'm waiting.

-Sean

All good points. I think that it's capability to show HD content is great. I'd much rather have it $299 and have longevity than lower priced and only have s-video out.

I think Panasonic and Sony's AVCHD cameras will bring HD to the masses very soon and modestly price.

The bump to 640x480 says to me that 720p content is just around the corner from iTunes.

I also think that iTV is just as much a part of the "iLife thinking" as anything, which is to create the content yourself (i.e the Italy slideshow) and beam to your TV.

Considering the price of the Roku Soundbridge, I still think this thing is a deal. It strikes me as the best method of moving media from your personal computer to your living room with little effort and little cost.

[kerpow]

I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

If I want to watch a few movies that I've created on my Powerbook, I pick up the PB put it next to the TV and use the cables to join them together.

If it is just a case of higher quality and no wires, I'm obviously not the target audience for this product.

[Evangelion]

I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

If I want to watch a few movies that I've created on my Powerbook, I pick up the PB put it next to the TV and use the cables to join them together.

Well, obviously you don't have to move your computer around anymore, just to watch some movies. Neither do you have to connect and reconnect cables all the time. In short: A lot less hassle. And the image-quality should also be better.

[obirah]

...Don't need 200 channels of crap? Just download the stuff you want to watch and have your own media library. Who needs cable and commercials?

Great point!

[kerpow]

Well, obviously you don't have to move your computer around anymore, just to watch some movies. Neither do you have to connect and reconnect cables all the time. In short: A lot less hassle. And the image-quality should also be better.

It will appeal to others more than me. Desktop users obviously.

It's safe to say that Apple make other products that are more deserving of my hard earned $$$

[inkhead]

Things I can tell you from hands on with the "iTV" box. Well the Apple reps weren't supposed to let us into the resolution settings we managed to get in.

HDMI outputs 1080p, which means this box released around the same time as leopard will offer 1080p out. This is excellent. It means Itunes hopefully by january will offer some HDTV content.

I used the itunes movie store today with my Macbook Pro. I bought Pirates of the Caribbean (it was widescreen), I simply plugged into my DVI-HDMI and I can drive my 60" Sony LCoS TV at 1080p with the macbook. The best part is I just closed the lid on the macbook pro and set it on top (closed) on my Comcast DVR. It works pretty much the same as the "iTV", I just launched frontrow, satback and used my remote.

So until then everybody if you have a macbook pro you can use it EXACTLY the same as the "iTV". Works fantastic, especially when I hook the optical audio out from the macbook to my surround system.

Also another consideration of "iTV" is that it will probably offer 802.11/a/b/g/ AND "n"

N will ensure better quality as newer macs come out.

But don't worry. 802.11g/a are more than capable of streaming HD 1080p content as long as your wireless network gets decent signal. I've done this with an XBOX306, as well as streaming with my Macbook Pro.

And with h.264 you can do HDTV in 2-3mbs instead of the full 8mbs of blu-ray.


PS. The 640x480 (which it obviously was larger because of widescreen movie i watched) looked great on my 1080p HDTV 60". It's really not much different than watching a DVD (720x???) on an HDTV.

So the new resolution with the h.264 codec makes it just like watching a DVD quality movie on your HDTV.

Macbook Pro users with HDTV go ahead and enjoy your "iTV" now...

[Evangelion]

It will appeal to others more than me. Desktop users obviously.

Even with laptops, moving the machine around all the time, and reconnecting the cables would get pretty old pretty fast.

[dernhelm]

What?! No iPod dock connector?

[dernhelm]

I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

If I want to watch a few movies that I've created on my Powerbook, I pick up the PB put it next to the TV and use the cables to join them together.

If it is just a case of higher quality and no wires, I'm obviously not the target audience for this product.


Display on an HD TV with no loss of quality?

[dernhelm]

But that's just it - where is the HD content going to come from? Basically 3 choices that can be done LEGALLY from a Mac by joe-average Mac owner, without going through some messy analog loophole: 1) streaming directly off a Blu-ray disc (can't legally rip a copy-protected disc to the hard drive). 2) iTMS download, assuming they start selling HD versions. 3) User-shot home video on an HD camera. Did I miss any?


You missed one - iPhoto slideshows in pure HD would be be beautiful.

[Switching soon]

So it seems from the coverage that the device has no optical drive, and no internal mass storage? Is that correct? And also that it is not itself a DVR? Don't get me wrong -- I'm reserving judgment. I just want to understand at this point. It sounds as if the basic purpose of the device is to draw high quality AV off a computer and onto a home entertainment system, sort of as the Roku SoundBridge did for the iPod's audio, but in a very Apple sort of way? In other words, it follows the computer-centric sort of model where a desktop or notebook Mac on the network is the "server"?

I agree with your interpretation re another mac on the network acting as the server. It appeals to me as very 'mac eloquent' actually - it simply acts to feed your TV output to your mac rather then establishing another storage device in the household - down load to ipod - nice/neat :) Makes sense of the price also.

[inkhead]

s-video is over 20 years old. This device is geared toward people with HDTVs.
You will need component (crappy hd, and no hdcp protection) minimum or HDMI which is a cable designed to carry audio (if you want) and 1080p signal.

As I mentioned in my previous post I already use my Macbook Pro as a media center, just close the lid, connect the dvi-hdmi cable and set it on top of my cable box... Use FrontRow and I'm all set. It works great on my 60" TV.

I think this really isn't going to be for people without HDTV. There isn't much point. There are only a few High end standard def tvs with component video.

So if your going to keep your old tv set for a movie store, then an older mac is perfect for this. Consider that the maximum resolution of a SDTV is 320x240 on older sets.

Current TV standard - 525 X 700, 30fps, 60 fields/sec, 4:3 (w:h)
VHS quality - 320 X 240, 30fps
Broadcast quality DVD - 720 X 480, 30fps (but doesn't matter if you have an old tv)

I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

If I want to watch a few movies that I've created on my Powerbook, I pick up the PB put it next to the TV and use the cables to join them together.

If it is just a case of higher quality and no wires, I'm obviously not the target audience for this product.

[BillHarrison]

Does the PC have to be next to the xbox, or is there a way to transfer (hopefully stream) video wirelessly? And if you're using a PC for this, does it tie up the PC or can you use it for other things?


Yes, works fine over an 802.11g network, INCLUDING HD MATERIAL STREAMING. And no, it does not noticably tie up the pc, my gf can be watching live tv or streaming a divx from the pc to the 360 and I can be on the pc browsing the web/ etc with no noticable slowdown. Media center for all purposes is XP PRO, so it does everything xp pro does, even when streaming to an extender (360) - note, one pc can feed 5 seperate extenders :D

[MacProGuy]

Personally, I think it's incredible... and I also think the price point is fine.

It's a high definition box... how many other high definition boxes out there that cost $299 do HDMI and COMPONENT Video Out? I mean, seriously, I don't care that it doesn't have a hard disk. Quite honestly, I'm glad it doesn't have DVR capabilities either. Almost EVERY television source (from Satellite to Cable to now my current FIOS TV) now includes DVRs, as well as Multimedia DVRs, so that is pretty much covered... adding another DVR in the chain only makes things really REALLY slow, and very unuser friendly (tried hooking up a DVR unit to a Dish Network PVR... OMG what a nightmare)...

So... I'm happy with everything... EXCEPT...

Why not make it have a DVD player as well? I mean, think of the broad appeal this device could INSTANTLY have at, say, a $399 price point...

A DVD Player that can be used as a multi-media hub using your existing Mac or PC with the absolute most killer graphics in the industry?

Heck, they could even save money and use the Mac Mini footprint and case for all I care... it would be sweeeeeet!

:(

But... baby steps.

Baby steps.

[Clive At Five]

There's a MUCH more systematic way that Apple could name this product.

"AirPort" is derrived from "Air" (being the medium through which the device works) and "Port" (gateway to aforementioned medium)

So this iTV box:

The medium through which the device works is Television and the device is a gateway to the Television so add "port" to the end. Thus...

I herby propose "TelePort."

hahah.

TelePort.

And you thought "AirPort" was bad.

-Clive

[Clive At Five]

Why not make it have a DVD player as well? I mean, think of the broad appeal this device could INSTANTLY have at, say, a $399 price point...

A DVD player would add a barbaric component to this elegant piece of work. If, instead, you were to buy a nice-sized hard drive for that extra $100 and ripped your DVDs to it, you could eliminate the monstrosity all together.

-Clive

[peharri]

I don't think anyone seriously knows what's in this box. A HD isn't out of the question, even a 250G one. That's, what, $100 retail right now? I bought one for $130 pre-rebate from Staples a couple of months ago. The difficulty I can see isn't with price, it's with squeezing it into the box.

We also don't know if Apple will line something else up to complement the iTV, such as a dedicated server unit. A home server, that maintains the iTunes library, manages Internet connections, etc, would be a good thing to have, and if it can be controlled from the iTV and any normal computer in the house, then that's a bonus.

I like what I've seen so far. We'll know more early next year. This is the first bit of good news I've seen from Apple in the last year and a half, and I hope it marks the beginning of a reversal.

[milo]

ABout the only real use I saw for thi sdevice was for the stuff Ihave recorded form elgato 500. Sinc eit dumps it into my itunes library - theoretically I should be able to access it. However, 5 gig files streaming are simply not pretty - and I do not want 640 * 480 on my HDTV.

WHile I "get" the direction of this product - I am not sure where its marketing position is at. Most can easily buy an upconverting DVD player for around $50-60 - connect to their TV and buy tons of movies (and own them) at 10-15.

Is there really that much difference between 640 and 720? Seems funny to say one is "not pretty" but those extra 80 lines (and no difference in the other dimension) make it acceptable.

Fort this to even be in the BALLPARK, it needs a Hard Dive. Needs to be Hi Def. That ain't happening at a 299.99 price tag. Still, people love the Tivo interface, so to get them, it's gonna have to offer MORE than Tivo- like an optical drive, a couple tuners. No WAY that is in this box and "not discolsed yet" at 299.

But tivo is also way more expensive, especially when you factor in monthly fees and new prices for upcoming HD versions. Many people don't want tivo because it's too freaking expensive.

1) It does stream HD content -- Just because the iTunes content is NOT HD (it is near DVD) does not mean the DEVICE is not capable. In fact it uses the HDMI connector (as well as S and componet video) and the built in wireless AND gigabit ethernet insure the bandwidth is there for future HD content.

Hopefully, it will stream HD. But at this point, that is just speculation, there is NO confirmation that it can stream HD.

So based on what was shown today, the iTV itself is not presenting itself as a recording solution, only playback.

If that is the case, then it still misses the mark because you cannot do the one thing that a PVR can do easily which is to pick up the remote and click record without getting out of your chair (assuming your Mac is in a different room than the TV).

Why not? There's nothing stopping them from controling the computer recording via the iTV remote.

Have fun sitting down to your computer to record shows. I get the vision, I reallly do, and I wanted Apple to pull it off better than anyone. But having to record HD content from one piece of hardware, convert it on my computer, load it onto iTunes and stream it to another piece of hardware (iTV) isn't exactly user friendly.

Why do you assume that it must be complicated? Elgato can record directly into an iTunes friendly format and put it straight into the iTunes library. And I'd bet Apple and Elgato could even work out a way to start recordings from the computer, and even stream and pause live TV.

It's not certain, but It's a damn good bet that it won't record as it doesn't look like it'll have any storage... I wouldn't bet a dime on recording ability...

We weren't talking about recording ability. It could potentially be able to talk to a third party TV tuner on the computer.

[Clive At Five]

I don't think anyone seriously knows what's in this box. A HD isn't out of the question, even a 250G one. That's, what, $100 retail right now? I bought one for $130 pre-rebate from Staples a couple of months ago. The difficulty I can see isn't with price, it's with squeezing it into the box.

What?! There is no Hard Drive in there. There's absolutely no need and would complicate the equation indefinitely, especially concerning digital rights. It's likely only some sort of an iTunes-esque client that searches certain folders of your home network to find movies and music.

It's just a gateway with a GUI.

-Clive

[ftaok]

Hopefully, it will stream HD. But at this point, that is just speculation, there is NO confirmation that it can stream HD.

Actually, there is circumstantial evidence that it will stream HD. At the keynote, Jobs demo'd the iTV by running the Incredibles (later confirmed to be the trailer) in HD. Now, we don't know how devices were configured and it is still a prototype, more or less.

I think we can be confident (97.25%) that it will stream HD.

[Philsy]

Does this unit allow you to browse and download films and TV shows from the iTunes Store direct from your TV, or do you have to go to your Mac to do that?

Anyone? :confused:

[Philsy]

I wonder if this means the death of the headless mac pro mini dream.

I need a Mac near my TV because I only have one aerial point. It now seems that I need to use a mini with its poor graphics card and small HDD, or to somehow fit and imac near my TV. Neither are good options for me.

I do wonder what new stuff Apple will bring out in the next quarter besides the shuffle.

Good point, I don't have an aerial point near my Mac. What's needed is a device that wirelessly transmits the TV signal from the aerial to anywhere in the house. I believe you can already have that with Sky?

[milo]

Until then this is going to be perfect for watching poorly encoded podcasts on a HDTV or movies that aren't even widescreen and have no extras for the same price as a DVD! :rolleyes:

The Mini was already a perfect device for this role. Throw in a large hard drive, just AV outputs, ethernet and and wireless connectivity for a multimedia keyboard and it was a standalone media center ready to go in anyone's living room that you could rip your own DVDs to.

In this case you have to have a main unit somewhere else humming away all day and stick this thing in the middle.

There are plenty of other options. I'm interested because I want to rip my dvd's and have them available on a server. A mini isn't really a perfect device to the average consumer because any computer will always be too expensive to put in the living room (and have tied up for one purpose). And what's the big deal about a "main unit"? That would be your computer. You have a computer, don't you? Wouldn't you rather be able to use it for TV and computing, instead of having to buy a second computer?

And if you ask me, Apple is likely NOT to allow eyeTV content from being streamed (since it would inherently hurt their TV SHOW store...)

Not even possible. Apple allows users to convert any movie into formats compatible with iTunes. How would they be able to tell the difference between user created content and recorded TV shows (or ripped DVD's) converted to the same file format and codec?

- Sounds like this doesn't have a hard drive, supposed to display on a TV a video bitstream received via network connection. There are already many devices out there that do this, starting at $99. What makes this any better? Big problem with those so far is that you need an excellent 802.11g connection or you get dropouts when playing a DVD. Ethernet is the only thing that makes it reliable.

Seriously, read at least some of the thread, this has been answered many times. It looks like this will probably be 802.11n.

- XBOX might be getting HDMI, or maybe not.
If it does, wouldn't it be a paid add on?

- Not very convenient to have to have a computer turned on to play DVD's. If your computer is in another room, changing DVD"s will be a real pain in the neck. It would be a whole lot simpler to just have a DVD drive in the unit.

My computer is always on, it just sleeps. And I'll probably just rip all my DVD's. Why is DVD a big deal anyway, don't you already have a DVD player?

- Superior to what? FrontRow has nothing on MCE's interface. I've used both, and MCE is better, IMO. (Of course, MCE allows one to record television.)

But you haven't used the updated FR that this will ship with, have you?

- No moving parts would make something quieter and cooler. However, this is not a standalone unit, and the need to run a server computer changes the quietness and coolness. I don't really want to look at computer or A/V equipment anyway.

Why would you be looking at a computer? This box is wireless, so the computer can be anywhere in the house.

Really this box is similar to a media center extender. That's about the same price, and that doesn't record TV either. Both seem like a good idea, but MS just hasn't been able to get their Media Center thing to take off.

I think Amazon stole their thunder...The Amazon offering at least offers rentals which competes somewhat with Netflix.
But amazon seems to have blown it with huge technical problems, and cumbersome spyware style app. They also don't have a way of playing the videos on your TV, which makes them pretty dead in the water.

That's what I don't get about the people who are in love with this device.

I don't see where it provides any other functionality other than a wireless connection to your computer. Wireless video streaming is nice but $299.00 nice? I say more like $50.00 nice.

If it provided router fuctionality then maybe $120.00 nice.

Either Apple is holding a lot back or they really blew the market analysis. Similar to the overpricing of the Cube a few years back. It's a nice idea but the pricing is ridiculous.

The point you miss is that it will probably use the .n standard instead of the .g. Simply can't be done at the prices you list. Look at the windows media center extenders, they cost about the same. The technology simply can't be done for cheaper yet. The good news is that prices should drop pretty quickly once .n wireless units really start shipping.

Not really, we get the point, but we also see that we can save a lot with a $5 cable by putting a computer next to the TV and get a better video than if we transmit it over the air.

How are you "saving a lot" if you have to buy another computer to leave next to the TV that you probably won't use for anything else? The iTV can stream from the computer you already have, so since you only need ONE computer, it's cheaper overall.

[Carl Spackler]

Anyone? :confused:
Based on what I saw and understand, the unit requires another computer to provide the content. Essentially, you're remote controlling the media on your Mac.

[Philsy]

Based on what I saw and understand, the unit requires another computer to provide the content. Essentially, you're remote controlling the media on your Mac.

Thanks for replying. I understand this, but wonder if the iTV's remote control facility extends to you letting browse the iTunes Store and buy material. I'd like to think it would.

[DrFrankTM]

Well, i see it like this. iTV is just the beginning of something quite new and quite big for apple. Compare it to the release of the original iPod - black and white, audio only, expensive, small capacity. The killer thing about the iPod was less about it's features than it's interface and operability with itunes. It made something - portable music player - easier and more elegant.

And that's what iTV is. Today, if you want to play movies you've downloaded, you need a multi-media DVD player (with divx and mpeg support) and you need to burn discs. Play a CD on the stereo? Hook up your ipod or laptop to a cable. Etc.. This device eliminates the need to burn discs for video and makes it easier to view content - however acquired - that's already on your computer. Bravo. Simple. It's not trying to be everybody's everything. Like i said, the original iPod only played audio. That was enough for a start.

Will they add a hard drive? Probably. Will you be able to download HD quality movies from the internet with this thing? Eventually. But Apple's gonna do it one step at a time. They'll introduce a basic device at first, see what people think and how it does, and add features carefully and slowly over time. This recipe worked wonders with the iPod. I think it will work here too.

Thank you very much for this well-written, well-thought piece. I'm not too sure of the box's capabilities as of now, but we really have to look at where Apple is going with this thing and where it will be five years from now. I haven't bought a single song from the iTMS, never had a single iPod, never bought a TV show or a movie from Apple either, but it doesn't mean I never will. It's not quite there yet when it comes to satisfying the HD buffs, but for many, it will be "good enough" and Apple will sell tons of those. As I already said, five years from now, we'll look back and think: "That is when it all started." It's big. It's really big. As a shareholder, you have no idea how this pleases me. Just give the little box a few years...

[milo]

Maybe you have all the money in the world, but 299 for an airport is pretty extreme. For what it is, it is overpriced by double- at least. Do you really feel good about dropping three bills on a wireless reciever?

But right now, what's the cheaper alternative for playing computer videos on your TV? I can't think of anything, is there one?

It's expensive because it's bleeding edge technology, as overpriced as you think it is, nobody can do it cheaper yet.

The good news is that it's the kind of technology that will get very cheap very fast. Media centers won't keep up, and the pricing gap will get bigger and bigger.

yah so basically it does what an xbox 360 can do - a la media center extender.. but you know.. nothing else.

Is that really such a bad thing? The media center extender seems pretty cool (but does it do wireless HD? Does it use .g or .n?). And both are around the same price, aren't they?

iTV is basically a better looking version and even higher priced version of this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6825322&st=media+extender&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1091101680429

But that doesn't do .n or HD. I'm sure a version with the higher specs would cost about the same as the iTV.

I know I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here...but what does this device do that an S-Video cable can't do?

Send video wirelessly. I can't exactly run an S-Video card to my basement.

Actually, there is circumstantial evidence that it will stream HD. At the keynote, Jobs demo'd the iTV by running the Incredibles (later confirmed to be the trailer) in HD. Now, we don't know how devices were configured and it is still a prototype, more or less.

What makes you think it was HD? I watched the event online, and he said it was the same video quality as the iTunes store, and made no mention of HD. Do you have a source on the HD thing? I suspect someone just got confused and started a rumor.

[ftaok]

What makes you think it was HD? I watched the event online, and he said it was the same video quality as the iTunes store, and made no mention of HD. Do you have a source on the HD thing? I suspect someone just got confused and started a rumor.
Engadget reported it as being HDTV. Later, someone else (can't remember who) said that it wasn't the Incredibles movie, rather the HD trailer from Apple's site.

Also, Jobs stated that the iTV can do HD resolutions (not necessarily HD streaming) in that photos can be viewed in HD resolutions.

Putting all of this together with the fact that they included component and HDMI outputs, leads me to believe that this device will indeed stream HiDef material.

[peharri]

What?! There is no Hard Drive in there. There's absolutely no need and would complicate the equation indefinitely, especially concerning digital rights. It's likely only some sort of an iTunes-esque client that searches certain folders of your home network to find movies and music.

It's just a gateway with a GUI.

-Clive

*sigh*

I'll repeat the points I made just now slowly:

1. Nobody knows what's in the box. Nobody. You think you do. You don't.

1.1 Not even Apple knows, because they haven't finished it yet.

1.2 Anyone saying anything more than "I definitely know that it does this because this specific fact was mentioned at the keynote" is talking out of their Ars.technica.

1.3 If it wasn't announced, it isn't known.

1.4 Responding to a comment that suggests that the box looks too small for an HD with a exclaimative reply as if I'd just said it definitely had one is, frankly, ridiculous.

2. The box is small. It's been described as half the size of a Mac mini.

2.1 Therefore, as I just posted, I can see them as having difficulty fitting an HD in this box.

3. We don't know what else Apple is coming up with. There are a variety of possibilities:

3.1 Apple intends to put an HD in this machine so it can act like a hub. This is a possibility, but as I mentioned in point 2.1, it seems unlikely.

3.2 Apple intends to only allow it to be used with computers, as suggested by many critics posting here.

3.3 Apple intends to release more hardware, for example, a cheap, dedicated, home server box.

3.99 But all of these are possibilities, some more likely than others. You don't know, and criticising it for doing/not doing any of these is premature

(In addition to the 3.x options described above, it's also possible that Apple intends to allow the box to be hooked up to a .Mac account, with everything streamed to it. I meant to mention it at the time and forgot)

As far as the comment about making it needlessly complex, no, putting an HD in the machine wouldn't make it more complex. For users who intend to use it with their existing networks, they can ignore the HD. For users who intend to use it as their sole media access point, it simplifies the situation as it means they don't have to set up a seperate server. In terms of the hardware, it strikes me as quite likely the machine will have some kind of storage, if only a limited amount of flash enough for buffering, storing settings, and containing the OS, so the hardware itself should not become any more complex though including an HD.

Let me repeat my main point though:

What we know so far are the minimum specs. We know it'll provide access to iTunes content, onto a TV, in full HD. We know that for some reason it has USB ports. It has full wireless and wireline networking access. It's half the size of a Mac mini. It certainly isn't a "Video Airport Express" as some suggest.

- Criticising it for needing to be used with a computer is premature. You don't know that.
- Criticising it for lacking storage is premature. You don't know that; even assuming it does there are multiple ways in which Apple can overcome that.

Not even Apple knows exactly what it will release next year. It has an idea. It has minimum specs. It's still under development if close to completion. The full story will come out when the device is released.

Right now, there's enough information for us to know that even the minimum that may be in the machine's a good thing.

[peharri]

Personally, I think it's incredible... and I also think the price point is fine.

Me too

Why not make it have a DVD player as well? I mean, think of the broad appeal this device could INSTANTLY have at, say, a $399 price point...


I wouldn't rule that out in the long term. But in the short term, remember this is a device that acts as a front-end to an iTunes based media library system. Adding a DVD wouldn't be unwelcome, but it'd be like those hybrid DVD-VHS players you see, a strange mixture of redundant technologies whose presense reflects legacy requirements more than clean elegant design.

It'd be fairly un-Apple. Imagine if the Mac mini, as a switcher box, had a built-in second PC that runs Windows, with a switch on the front to allow you to flick between the two. That's what adding a DVD player to the iTV is like.

Which doesn't mean it'll not happen.

[Motley]

Engadget reported it as being HDTV. Later, someone else (can't remember who) said that it wasn't the Incredibles movie, rather the HD trailer from Apple's site.

Also, Jobs stated that the iTV can do HD resolutions (not necessarily HD streaming) in that photos can be viewed in HD resolutions.

Putting all of this together with the fact that they included component and HDMI outputs, leads me to believe that this device will indeed stream HiDef material.

Seriously, what would be the point of including component and HDMI (and no composite) if it couldn't do HD material?

Too many unknowns at this point, here's my questions:
Does the inclusion of the ports indicate HD material from itunes at some point (secret deathblow to Blue-Ray and HD-DVD)?
If you have multiple iTVs can each pull different data from the server at the same time?


If I got one of these this my understanding of how it would work:
1: Get and eyetv hybrid for cable and HD signals and possibly rip DVDs to comp
2: Use iTV to pull programs from comp to projector
3: Watch content

[biggerbearbrian]

No, I really think Apple failed on this one. Even for those few this may fit a need for can find much cheaper alternatives. For those that say, "Wait, we do not know all it can do", I say open your eyes- the form is not big enough for anything else, and the price is too low to be a REAL Media Center. I wish it were otherwise, I WANT an apple Media Center- and I am prepared to pay for it. But this is not it- this is a mistake.


I would be hard pressed to say that Apple "Failed" on a product that is a preview, not even in production as yet. This may or may not be a failure in the end, time will tell. But I think one very important thing to note is that this is expected to work with both PC and MAC. This is yet another way to boost Apple into what is (undoubtedly) where "computing" is going for the mass consumer, which is as their main entertainment hub. To be able to do that without having to force people into buying a computer other than what they are used to, or have and don't see a need to upgrade, allows Apple to position themselves as the leaders in the market (as they did with the iPod). What they do from there, is anyone's guess. Pricing, features etc will certainly change (down and up respectively (hopefully)). It may or may not fail, but this was a demo of an upcoming (and much talked about) product.

[Spanna]

It would be handy if it could access the media strait off your ipod. Imagine walking into anybody's house who had an itv and being able to display all your media through there entertainment system. Maybe it could work though some sort of new streaming ipod dock.

[ftaok]

Seriously, what would be the point of including component and HDMI (and no composite) if it couldn't do HD material?

Too many unknowns at this point, here's my questions:
Does the inclusion of the ports indicate HD material from itunes at some point (secret deathblow to Blue-Ray and HD-DVD)?
If you have multiple iTVs can each pull different data from the server at the same time?


If I got one of these this my understanding of how it would work:
1: Get and eyetv hybrid for cable and HD signals and possibly rip DVDs to comp
2: Use iTV to pull programs from comp to projector
3: Watch contentI agree. I don't know if they'll actually ever offer HD movies from the iTMS, but it could happen.

My plan is similar to your understanding of how the iTV may work. I'd like to have a Mac in the home office (originally, I was thinking $799 Mac mini in the family room connected to the 46" HDTV) that's hooked up to an eyeTV 500 for recording QAM HDTV streams. Maybe throw in a couple of external hard drives for gobs of storage. I could attach it to a cheap 15" LCD (or a nice 20" widescreen if I feel like splurging).

Down in the family room, I'd put in the iTV and have it stream material from the Mac in the office. Hopefully, the newest version of Front Row will be open enough for el Gato to update the eyeTV software to fully integrate with Front Row. That way, I could view my recorded shows down in the family room.

Now, this is what I would hope for. The ability to control the Mac in the office from the iTV itself. Not just the Front Row streaming, but having a BT keyboard and mouse connected to the iTV and seeing the desktop of the Mac upstairs. This would allow for web browsing, Quicken, etc. right from the couch, rather than having to go upstairs. I guess I could achieve this by connecting the Mac right to the TV in the family room, but the issue is having the extra Hard drives located in the family room and such.

I'll have to wait along with everyone else to see what this thing can do. In the mean time, hopefully there will be some information that comes out that can help me along with my decision to buy a Mac mini or an iMac.

ft

[beaster]

Is there really that much difference between 640 and 720? Seems funny to say one is "not pretty" but those extra 80 lines (and no difference in the other dimension) make it acceptable.



The difference isn't 80 lines. The difference is between 640x480 and 1280x720. That is a HUGE difference in the # of pixles (307,200 vs. 921,600). Also, it's not clear whether the 640x480 videos for sale are interlaced or progressive. Since they're advertised as "near" DVD quality (720x480, interlaced), I'm guessing they're interlaced. In that case divide the 307,200 number in half. That's almost an order of magnitude difference between what they're selling and true HD.

-Sean

[airamerica]

Well, from this side of the pond (UK) it seems that Apple has got a lot of work to do.

1. As good as iTV looks, we still don't have any Movie OR T.V. content on the iTunes Store - to play via this system.

2. The 'iTV' name is already taken by the biggest independent television network in the country.

3. In most cases our broardband is maxed-out at 5mbps (in many cases outside London less) - making movie downloads a real pain.

However, I'm sure this isn't the finished article - come on apple!

AA

[awhitaker]

What will this have that a Mediagate MG-35, Mediagate MG-350HD, TViX M3000-F, and the TViX HD M5000-A don't have? I'm really hoping the iTV will have an internal hard drive capability, be able to play various supported formats like the one's mentioned above do, and be wireless like the MG-350HD is. The big selling point for the iTV for me over the above mentioned media centers are that it will be easy plug and play with an Apple, that it will be able to play various audio and video formats, it's easy to use interface like Itunes. I want to be able to rip my DVD's, my home movies, and any internet content and be able to easily play it on my big screen using the iTV. And I want HD not near DVD quality. The others already offer a lot of this, but take longer to set up.

[ftaok]

I'm guessing they're interlaced.

-Sean
That's a faulty assumption. The current (or old) TV shows are 320x240 progressive. There's no reason to assume that the new shows are anything other than 640x480 progressive.

[greenstork]

Is there really that much difference between 640 and 720? Seems funny to say one is "not pretty" but those extra 80 lines (and no difference in the other dimension) make it acceptable.

Yes, there really is that much difference between HD TV and SD TV. And it's not the difference between 640 and 720, it's the difference between 480 and 720, or the vertical lines of resolution.

[Peace]

I'm really surprised nobody has caught on to the (imho) obvious implication of the "codename" for this device.."iTv"

Let's see...iTv...

Elgato

EyeTV

iTv

Elgato

EyeTV integrates with Front Row

iTv integrates with Front Row


It's my opinion that Apple is in negotiations to purchase Elgato..

This device WILL morph into a true set-top box..

Watch!

[beaster]

That's a faulty assumption. The current (or old) TV shows are 320x240 progressive. There's no reason to assume that the new shows are anything other than 640x480 progressive.

Well, if that's true, then they wouldn't be "near" DVD quality, they'd be significantly better than DVD quality. DVD = 480i, i.e. 720x480 interlaced, or 172,800 pixels (720x480/2) on screen during any given second. 640x480 progressive gives 307,200 pixels in that same second. Why would Apple advertise something as "near" DVD quality when it's actually significantly better than?

-Sean

EDIT: Was typing too fast - that should say "during any given 1/60th of a second" and "in that same 1/60th of a second".

[ftaok]

Yes, there really is that much difference between HD TV and SD TV. And it's not the difference between 640 and 720, it's the difference between 480 and 720, or the vertical lines of resolution.
I don't want to speak for milo, but I think he's actually talking about the difference between 640x480 (iTMS) and 720x480 (DVD and Amazon).

Or maybe not.

[sbarton]

Saw some posts elsewhere that questioned the lack of support from the major studios. I really don't think this is going to be an issue. IMO, the big reason for Apple showing off iTV so early was to show the "studios" what they will be missing out on.

If the major studios like Universal sit it out for much longer, then I predict you'll see iTunes 7.1 which adds support for DiVX encoded material from ANY source. After that, the whole thing will blossom just like the iTunes store vs Music labels battle did.

[Philsy]

Interesting comments here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5342408.stm

[ftaok]

Well, if that's true, then they wouldn't be "near" DVD quality, they'd be significantly better than DVD quality. DVD = 480i, i.e. 720x480 interlaced, or 172,800 pixels (720x480/2) on screen during any given second. 640x480 progressive gives 307,200 pixels in that same second. Why would Apple advertise something as "near" DVD quality when it's actually significantly better than?

-Sean
OK, I think you're a little off here (or it could be me).

DVDs are 480i or 720x480i. iTMS may be 640x480p. You have to take into account both spatial and temporal resolution. A DVD will display 720x240 pixels every 1/60th of a second. Assuming iTMS stuff is 480p, then it would be displaying 640x480 pixels every 1/30th of a second.

So over the course of a second, 720x480i pushes out just over 10 million pixels. 640x480p will push out 9.2 million pixels over that same second. That's pretty close.

[Clive At Five]

As far as the comment about making it needlessly complex, no, putting an HD in the machine wouldn't make it more complex. For users who intend to use it with their existing networks, they can ignore the HD. For users who intend to use it as their sole media access point, it simplifies the situation as it means they don't have to set up a seperate server. In terms of the hardware, it strikes me as quite likely the machine will have some kind of storage, if only a limited amount of flash enough for buffering, storing settings, and containing the OS, so the hardware itself should not become any more complex though including an HD.

I wasn't suggesting at all that it was too small for a HD. Considering the impressive capacity vs size of the iPod HD, I could easily see it possible to shove 80 - 160 GB in there, granted if they were slow RPM microdrives.

Let's assume this is true, that Apple does put a decent HD in there to make it a "sole media access point," as you call it. How would you be able to get media onto it? Either 1) it comes with some sort of operating system which allowed you to connect it to iTS for content. or 2) it could be detected by a Mac or PC as a computer/HD over the network in order to drag-n-drop media.

Option 1, I think, is too far-fetched and risky. There would be substantial reliability issues using HDs that small to run an OS. We've all heard many nightmare-ish stories about people trying to bring their home computer to work, booting via iPod.

Option 2, if this is the case, why would you even need a HD in the box? Basically, Apple would be spending money on MicroDrives which don't have a reliable life-span and take up valuable space inside the box and for what? So that you can have an identical copy of a 1GB movie on both your Mac and your iTV box? As long as streaming works, there's no need. PLUS, with iTunes DRM, you are limited to the number of copies you can make on devices you own. So an HD in the iTV would eat up one of those for any of the media you would choose to load onto it.

I do think, however, it would be likely to allow it to connect to .Mac although streaming from the net is slower than within an internal network... and on top of that, I don't know many people who store full-length, full-quality movies in their .Mac storage. In fact, I don't know any.

So, that's why I *think* (notice that word ;) ) there will be no HD in the TelePort.

-Clive

[mdntcallr]

Apple gave a sneak peak of an upcoming product. Is that a flying pig I see out my window?

no the flying pigs were storming around already. because of Intel CPU's and Windows being able to run natively on macs.

[BigHat]

I amazed by the some of the stupid posts here. Did you watch the presentation?? If so, how could you be asserting that it doesn't have HDMI and DOES have composite video?? God !!!

I concur with the poster earlier that asserts that the audience for this piece of the show was the movie industry. There are TONS of unknowns about "iTV" or whatever they end up naming it. Why not just hang back and see what develops instead of condeming it? You look like idiots.

Maybe some of you are financially strapped or just cheap, but I'd buy it right now, movie video capabilities unknown, just to get an on-screen display of my iTunes library and iPhoto files. Right now I use a laptop to direct a desktop iTunes library to stream to the optical output of an Airport Express located behind my home theater. For me, this required no additional expeditures beyond the Airport Express and works pretty well. Of course, the video display is missing. I'll pay $299 just to get that. Everything else is device performs will be "gravy."

[babyj]

A lot of people are commenting that the main reason for this and other Apple media playing products is to generate sales through the iTunes store.

I've never read or heard of anything to suggest that Apple make a big profit from iTunes, quite the opposite in fact. Its often referred to as a loss leader which is backed up by the quotes of percentages that Apple pay out on every sale.

Apple want everyone to own an iPod, an iTV connected to every tv screen and a few Macs in every house. Its hardware where they make their profit, not on media. Though having the best media store means more people buy their hardware, which in turn results in more companies making their media available on iTunes, which means a better media store which means more hardware sales etc etc.

[ftaok]

So, that's why I *think* (notice that word ;) ) there will be no HD in the TelePort.

-Clive
Clive,

You got me thinking. Suppose the iTV will only be intended as a streaming device. What's to say that they don't put in a small (laptop sized 2.5") drive in there at say, 20 GB, for the sole purpose of providing a streaming buffer.

You have your movies sitting on the hard drive of the connected Mac (or PC) and you use Front Row to access it. It starts to build a buffer in the iTV hard drive and after 30 seconds, the movie starts to play. 20 GB should be plenty of space for even 2 hours of HD movie encoded with h264.

The hard drive used in this manner doesn't need to be a speed burner. Just reliable. However, if it is set-up this way, it would probably need some specialized hardware design to decode h264 and other video formats. If the connected Mac is to decode the signal prior to streaming, you'd probably want a bigger hard drive for performance. Plus, the network bandwidth needs would be greater.

ft

[beaster]

OK, I think you're a little off here (or it could be me).

DVDs are 480i or 720x480i. iTMS may be 640x480p. You have to take into account both spatial and temporal resolution. A DVD will display 720x240 pixels every 1/60th of a second. Assuming iTMS stuff is 480p, then it would be displaying 640x480 pixels every 1/30th of a second.

So over the course of a second, 720x480i pushes out just over 10 million pixels. 640x480p will push out 9.2 million pixels over that same second. That's pretty close.

480p = 720x480, 60 frames per second = 720 x 480 x 60 pixels/second.
480i = 720x480, 30 frames per second = 720 x 480 x 30 pixels/second.

So you made an incorrect assumption that iTMS would be displaying "640x480 pixels every 1/30th of a second." It'd be every 1/60th of a second if it actually is 640x480p.

-Sean

[babyj]

Clive,

You got me thinking. Suppose the iTV will only be intended as a streaming device. What's to say that they don't put in a small (laptop sized 2.5") drive in there at say, 20 GB, for the sole purpose of providing a streaming buffer.

You have your movies sitting on the hard drive of the connected Mac (or PC) and you use Front Row to access it. It starts to build a buffer in the iTV hard drive and after 30 seconds, the movie starts to play. 20 GB should be plenty of space for even 2 hours of HD movie encoded with h264.

The hard drive used in this manner doesn't need to be a speed burner. Just reliable. However, if it is set-up this way, it would probably need some specialized hardware design to decode h264 and other video formats. If the connected Mac is to decode the signal prior to streaming, you'd probably want a bigger hard drive for performance. Plus, the network bandwidth needs would be greater.

ft

Wouldn't the iPod software be able to do that, maybe with a bit of an upgrade?

Wouldn't 1gb of nand memory as used in the Nano provide a big enough buffer?

[Peace]

Some folks need to learn the difference between Progressive Scan and Interlaced Scan.

[p0intblank]

It amazes me how many ignorant people post here. Why can't you look at this logically and say "You know what, Apple is trying something new and I'm going to support them." I mean, come on, people! What is your deal? It was a sneak preview. Relax... I for one am excited about "iTV" and what it brings. Why can't you just support Apple for what they are doing?

This thread reminds me of the discussion everyone had when the 1G iPod was originally introduced. Posters were screaming things like "MP3 player? You're late, Apple!" and "We don't need another freakin' MP3 player, Apple. What are you thinking?!"

The same exact thing is happening in this thread. Not to sound rude, but please stop your bitching. Wait until Q1 2007 to see if its worth crying about. And it probably will be, because nothing pleases you these days.

And I will say this again... I support Apple for doing this. I'm interested to see where "iTV" goes.

That is all.

[Clive At Five]

20 GB should be plenty of space for even 2 hours of HD movie encoded with h264.

The hard drive used in this manner doesn't need to be a speed burner. Just reliable. However, if it is set-up this way, it would probably need some specialized hardware design to decode h264 and other video formats.

20 GB??!! Dude, I thought 2 GB would do it for an entire movie. (can someone look this up?) And in all reality it would only need to cache half an hour's worth at a time, like the iPod. Either way, as long as the cache is <5 GB, I think it would be much more cost (and space) effective to use solid state.

As for your second comment about decoding h264, that sould really just be a simple software algorithm and shouldn't require any significant hardware to do it. (unless someone else close to the encoding business can explain otherwise)

-Clive

[Macnoviz]

few, all 15 pages read, let's see

Apple gave a sneak peak of an upcoming product. Is that a flying pig I see out my window?

You have Windows ?!:eek:

i dont' want to burst your bubble, but joe everyman doesn't own a mac, he owns a dell he bought fot $499 on teh intarweb super special.

apple sells things to gadgeteers and "artists"

aside from the ipod - they don't sell anything in quantity - and this isn't going to be an exception.

May I remind you that the dell he bought will be able to use the iTV ? As long as it has iTunes, it works (i don't know about Linux, but they're not the kind of people looking for the easy consumer solutions)

I'm not sure what the fuss or confusion is, this is just a box that allows you to stream media from you Mac to yout TV and thats it. As it uses FrontRow I assume iTunes and iPhoto will have to be open on your host Mac and set to allow access.

I've been doing this for years with a chipped xbox which is far more flexible or you can buy a cheap network DVD player, this product is nothing new.

see my sig for a similar reaction upon the introduction of the iPod



Apart from these responses, I think that the I/O says a lot.

HDMI would be overkill for a device that can only handle DVD quality (and I haven't heard of flatscreens that have only HDMI) (PS, in Belgium, and I think the rest of Europe, too, all televions have at least SCART, which is basically a huge plug for component video, so no probs about the lack of S-Video/composite)


USB can only mean that it will be expandable, in the least spectacular case, some iPod thingy, in the best case, everything 3th party developers can come up with)


And for the name, let's see, it's from Apple, consumer product fits in the iLife digital hub, comparable to iPod, smells like another i- coming up.

And it's a box to hook up on your TV, so, logically:

iBox


no, wait...

[Mr. Pippin]

Overall, looks like a product with a lot of great possibilities.

1. USB connection? Probably so you can directly attach your iPod for listening on your stereo.

2. I wish it had firewire so you can use this to view Camcorder videos, etc. Yes, new camcorders have USB 2.0, now, too.

3. The coolest thing I would LIKE to see is Apple provide a way to copy my current DVD collection to my system and use this to view it on my TV. My expectation if they DID would be that they would wrap fairplay around the end image. Still, I would buy one right now alone based on if that function were to exist.

Number one problem with DVD's to date is that that the library management you get with music has been held back by Hollywood and the DMCA. I don't consider MCE a good solution, either.

[ftaok]

480p = 720x480, 60 frames per second = 720 x 480 x 60 pixels/second.
480i = 720x480, 30 frames per second = 720 x 480 x 30 pixels/second.

So you made an incorrect assumption that iTMS would be displaying "640x480 pixels every 1/30th of a second." It'd be every 1/60th of a second if it actually is 640x480p.

-Sean
I stand corrected. However, when playing a quicktime movie trailer, the frame rate is displayed at 24 or 30 fps. So maybe the iTMS selections are 480p30, which would be close to DVD quality.

[ftaok]

20 GB??!! Dude, I thought 2 GB would do it for an entire movie. (can someone look this up?) And in all reality it would only need to cache half an hour's worth at a time, like the iPod. Either way, as long as the cache is <5 GB, I think it would be much more cost (and space) effective to use solid state.

As for your second comment about decoding h264, that sould really just be a simple software algorithm and shouldn't require any significant hardware to do it. (unless someone else close to the encoding business can explain otherwise)

-CliveWell, I was thinking in terms that the smallest hard drives that you can get these days are around 20 GB. But yeah, you're right. Flash memory would be sufficient.

As for the h264 decoding, I do think it's more intensive that just some simple software. My G3 iBook won't do h264 smoothly at all. I hear that G4's choke on h264 as well. Supposedly, the Core Solo isn't that great with 1080p h264 material. Of course, this all depends on the quality of the encoded files, but for what we're talking about (h264 HD files), you'd want at least 720p30 and I would think that you'd need some hardware to help with that task.

[Chundles]

My 1.2GHz iBook handles any H.264 around 480p just fine, it chokes on the higher HD resolutions though. 640x480 plays just fine at 1.3mbps.

This thing is soooo getting a USB port somewhere on it to plug in an iPod and will boast on-screen navigation for all the iPod's content. That'd be sweet for people like me without all the top technology. Rip some DVDs to the iPod then plug the iPod into the iTV and use the remote to navigate.

Of course, Apple could just get off their arse and update the 5G software to output the interface to a TV via the Universal Dock. If it did that I'd probably start whinging now to get one for my birthday.

[BigHat]

I'm unsure of this 802.11G vs. N issue. Help me understand it please.

Let's assume the current airport card isn't software upgradeable. What's the worst that could happen to a Mac Pro owner? I'm thinking it would just require replacing the airport card. That's no biggie and hardly a reason to defer a computer purchase. True?

[peterjhill]

Why can't we buy a mid sized tower (in stereo size) which can have HDMI 1080p output? with blu-ray drive built in?

hey just asking. i know blu-ray is just getting started, but i'd like apple to be on it from the get go.

Because the price point is awesome for this.. $299, the original airport cost around that I think. Once you add a blu-ray drive, I am guessing your price will go up another $200. At that point you compete with the mac mini... and by the time this is released, perhaps we will be able to buy a mac mini with blu-ray. And the front row built into OS X 10.5 might be improved to be as good as this product..

I think that this is a typical Steve move... He does not want people to be confused about what to buy (in his mind that is). If it is hard to distinguish a mac mini from an itv, consumers might not pick either... In warcraft terms, consumer stunlock.

I am curious as to what we can do with that usb port... can we add an external drive? is it for a keyboard? Is there a hard drive in the box or did they just put in a couple of gigs of flash memory in it.

Well, brilliant move steve, this was a perfect thing to leak... it will not prevent people from buying any existing product... perhaps a few mac minis, but even then, there will be a lot of people planning on spending $299 as soon as this product is released.

[myca]

Just thought of this, if they stuck a firewire port on there (or made the iSight with USB2) this could be a replacement for the telephone (well sort of), it could hook up to address book and you could have video conferencing on a glorious 52" flat screen, I'm all for this iTV thing because I think it will evolve and grow, much like the iPod and most of the software Apple create.

[Clive At Five]

As for the h264 decoding, I do think it's more intensive that just some simple software. My G3 iBook won't do h264 smoothly at all. I hear that G4's choke on h264 as well. Supposedly, the Core Solo isn't that great with 1080p h264 material. Of course, this all depends on the quality of the encoded files, but for what we're talking about (h264 HD files), you'd want at least 720p30 and I would think that you'd need some hardware to help with that task.

Well, yes, it would obviously have to be more than just software, I mean, software won't run without a processor...

But if this thing is specialized for streaming video, they'll most likely use a processor that is the most compatible with that sort of thing. It wouldn't have to be a G4, G5, Core or any other such thing. They make processors that, as long as it receives data in a certain way, it'll chug the numbers really quickly.

Also, something to consider is that your G3 was also running an operating system, which, even if all other applications are closed, a significant portion of the processor must, at all times, be dedicated to running. If your TelePort (Until Apple tells us differently I'm sticking with that name :p ) was G3 pin & instruction compatible (which it isn't, I assure you) it would likely be able to crunch those numbers adequately enough.

So as long as the TelePort's OS is simple, a huge processor isn't needed.

-Clive

[Clive At Five]

I am curious as to what we can do with that usb port... can we add an external drive? is it for a keyboard? Is there a hard drive in the box or did they just put in a couple of gigs of flash memory in it.

I think you and Chundles have it right on.

An ext'l drive or an iPod would make a ton of sense... probably the iPod moreso than the HD (with an Ext'l HD, why not just have it connected to your Home Network at another access point... i.e. your Mac / PC?). But with an iPod, your friends could come over with a movie, granted it'd be hell for your iPod's Micro Drive. :p

-Clive

[Chundles]

I think you and Chundles have it right on.

An ext'l drive or an iPod would make a ton of sense... probably the iPod moreso than the HD (with an Ext'l HD, why not just have it connected to your Home Network at another access point... i.e. your Mac / PC?). But with an iPod, your friends could come over with a movie, granted it'd be hell for your iPod's Micro Drive. :p

-Clvie

Problem is fitting a USB port on it. I doubt they'd put on at the front and there's no room on the back.

There's no HDD in it either, probably just a few MB of cache (MB, not GB - you don't need to buffer the whole movie). Most of that space would be taken up by the power supply and the circuitry for the decoding/outputs.

[Peace]

Problem is fitting a USB port on it. I doubt they'd put on at the front and there's no room on the back.

There's no HDD in it either, probably just a few MB of cache (MB, not GB - you don't need to buffer the whole movie). Most of that space would be taken up by the power supply and the circuitry for the decoding/outputs.

Maybe I'm confused..

Chundles the new Media Center HAS a USB port on it.Or were you talking about the iPod?

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/09/dsc_1000.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/09/dsc_1072.jpg
In between the power and the ethernet is a USB 2.0 port

From left to right :
power,USB,Ethernet,HDMI,Component,RCA jacks,Optical Audio.

"you can take content to your computer or iPod, but now... TV." Going by the codeword of iTV, the box looks like a flattened Mac mini -- apparently it's around half the height -- and features a built-in power supply, USB 2.0, Ethernet, 802.11 wireless, component video, optical audio and HDMI ports, plus regular ol' RCA stereo audio ports.

[Chundles]

Maybe I'm confused..

Chundles the new Media Center HAS a USB port on it.Or were you talking about the iPod?

Where's the USB port?

As far as I remember, across the back, from left to right:

Power: HDMI: Component Video: Analogue Audio: Optical Audio.

Have you got a picture because Steve never mentioned a USB port.

[Peace]

Where's the USB port?

As far as I remember, across the back, from left to right:

Power: HDMI: Component Video: Analogue Audio: Optical Audio.

Have you got a picture because Steve never mentioned a USB port.

See my above edited post.I included a pic.

[Chundles]

Wait, found it.

Power: USB: Ethernet: HDMI: Component Video: Analogue Audio: Optical

Right, sorted. Take back all my last posts, this thing had better do on-screen iPod menuing for all content.

Stupid Engadget and their blurry photos. Somehow they think using mobile phones to take pictures constitutes good journalism.

[dcranston]

Does this thread remind anyone of the original iPod thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500)?

"gee! an mp3 player with a HD! how original! kinda reminds me of a JUKEBOX i once knew."

vs.

"What a disappointment... I guess Apple is just trying to stave off the competition from the media capabilities of Windows Media Center and XBOX."

--

"There are already two products similar to this on the market. The Nomad Jukebox and the Archos Jukebox which can come with a 20 gig HD [4x the storage]. Apple is playing catch-up."

vs.

"When this thing surpasses the capabilities of my Windows media center and Xbox 360 combo then I will be impressed. Until then Apple is playing catch up to MCE and playing it poorly."

--

"I have a Nomad Jukebox with a 6gig hardrive and it only cost me $250. It works great and syncs fine with the computer and the transfer is relativley fast. I don't know what the big deal is. So...it works well with apple's software....big deal, anyone can do that. There is nothing there of interest."

vs.

"Yawn. How is this any different than my DSM-520 running along side my TVersity sever? It can handle just about every single codec/format I throw at it and is linked via usb 2.0 to my 500GB Western Digital MyBook. Yes Divx, TS, VOD, Pictures, Music, you name it. The D-Link was under $200...and released nearly a whole year before this locked down proprietary (you know it will definitely not be supporting the UPnP AV / DLNA standard) iTV nonesense. This is nothing new people...we've been streaming media from servers to our TVs for quite some time"

--

"Not revolutionary. Big capacity mp3 players already exist. With Creative Labs' entrance into the firewire arena, future nomads will have similar specs and better prices."

vs.

"For $300 I built a Windows MCE box that plays back 1080i content flawlessly thanks to an GeForce 6600 and Nvidia's excellent Purevideo decoder which means GPU-assisted decoding negating the need for an expensive CPU. Doesn't get any better than MCE + MyMovies right now, sorry."

--

yeah... clearly the options out there are amazing! Just go purchase a gaming console and configure the network for it, set up some streaming content from your PC and you're good to go. Nevermind the fact that the interface isn't built for this content, the setup is horrendous, the device is loud and huge, it won't stream iTunes content, and it costs the same. Better yet, build your own! Now we're talking the 90% case!

I think those that understand that folks who start subscribing to season passes, downloading content to iTunes, importing DVDs on their machines... these are the folks this device will work for. Without any extra work, it's now available on your TV. Subscribe to the daily show? $10/month and you have every episode in the living room.

I understand the use and necessity of DVRs at the current moment in time, but the concept exists only due to a restriction from the existing state of media. 300+ channels, all scheduled out by 30-minute time slots? This is a relic of an old era. I have a TiVO and I love it, but I can see the future is away from this, and this device puts apple right there ready for it.

[Mr. Pippin]

Wait, found it.

Power: USB: Ethernet: HDMI: Component Video: Analogue Audio: Optical

Right, sorted. Take back all my last posts, this thing had better do on-screen iPod menuing for all content.

Stupid Engadget and their blurry photos. Somehow they think using mobile phones to take pictures constitutes good journalism.

I'm sure it will be the same navigation it will use for remote iTunes music access. That assumes it will, though I would be dumbfounded if it did not support local iPod connectivity to the unit.

Again, sure wish it had firewire. It would be handy to be able to use the simplicity of this product to view home movies (camcorder) without having to load them onto the PC first.

[malibux]

Hmm...What sense does the usb port have? I guess that maybe you can attach an (updated)-isight camera in this port.

Wouldn´t it be cool to use the introduced video conferencing features from Leopard at iTV?

[Peace]

Hmm...What sense does the usb port have? I guess that maybe you can attach an (updated)-isight camera in this port.

Wouldn´t it be cool to use the introduced video conferencing features from Leopard at iTV?

Hard Drives or another stackable component ;)

[malibux]

Hard Drives or another stackable component ;)

yeah, a harddrive would also be cool...

Set up an NFS Server and connect my Nokia dbox (a satellite receiver here in europe, where you can install linux on it) to it -> DVR problem solved :p

[Peace]

WIFI works 2 ways..

My HD Satellite receiver has USB 2.0 and ethernet on it.

Hook it up to the Media Center and stream it to my computer in my room ;)

Remember the new EyeTV program has Front Row integration with TV.you can switch from TV right to Front Row and back to TV.

[luispedromota]

Contrary to several others comments I've already read, the really only piece of the show that have disapointed me was iTV. Mainly because I think that the product doesn't justify breaking Apple's golden rule of not showing products until they are ready to ship. No optical drive? No internal storage? No tuner? Just a media streamer? I dont like Windows MCE, I'm no fan of Microsoft, but I think that unfortunately, they have the lead now on the living room. And for me, just as it is, iTV wont change that in the near future.

[gugy]

Does this thread remind anyone of the original iPod thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500)?

yeah... clearly the options out there are amazing! Just go purchase a gaming console and configure the network for it, set up some streaming content from your PC and you're good to go. Nevermind the fact that the interface isn't built for this content, the setup is horrendous, the device is loud and huge, it won't stream iTunes content, and it costs the same. Better yet, build your own! Now we're talking the 90% case!

I think those that understand that folks who start subscribing to season passes, downloading content to iTunes, importing DVDs on their machines... these are the folks this device will work for. Without any extra work, it's now available on your TV. Subscribe to the daily show? $10/month and you have every episode in the living room.

I understand the use and necessity of DVRs at the current moment in time, but the concept exists only due to a restriction from the existing state of media. 300+ channels, all scheduled out by 30-minute time slots? This is a relic of an old era. I have a TiVO and I love it, but I can see the future is away from this, and this device puts apple right there ready for it.

Ditto!
People just can't think beyond. Resist to change. That's why Steve is so valuable for Apple.

Yes, I am with you I love my DVR, but in the future I think the ITV idea will be the one to go after. You buy what you want to watch and nothing else. With so much crap TV out there this will make the content creators more aware and start doing better work to grab attention, easy a bit the crazy channel surfing, etc. I do believe TV will stay as is, but will live with digital downloads. Just like CDs are with Itunes.
This is where and why Apple is positioning themselves to be the driving force.
Think different! ;)

[Mitch1984]

So it seems from the coverage that the device has no optical drive, and no internal mass storage? Is that correct? And also that it is not itself a DVR? Don't get me wrong -- I'm reserving judgment. I just want to understand at this point. It sounds as if the basic purpose of the device is to draw high quality AV off a computer and onto a home entertainment system, sort of as the Roku SoundBridge did for the iPod's audio, but in a very Apple sort of way? In other words, it follows the computer-centric sort of model where a desktop or notebook Mac on the network is the "server"?

It's like around 5 months till spring you guys are acting like it's the final product that's ready to be released.

[DrFrankTM]

Is it just me or does the iTV look very stackable? My guess is that eventually you will have a Hard Drive, Optical Drive and the iTV all separate. This way you can upgrade to a BlueRay from a DVD drive or a 500Gig HD from a 250.

Do you think Im way off?

No, I would think that you are right on the money. Of course, since all your iTVs and Macs will be networked wirelessly, you can put a BlueRay drive in the living room, a DVD drive in the kitchen, and attach your ElGato tuner and hard drive to the iMac in your bedroom if you want.

In terms of surface, is it larger than the Mini, or does it just *look* larger because it's much less thick? Does anyone know the exact dimensions of the thing?

[Mitch1984]

Just because Microsoft have done something doesn't mean Apple can't do it.
Microsoft get a flak for copying, because they don't innovate, they impersonate.
Yes I know they are gonna have a go at doing their own Music Device but that is my point; Microsoft, think "Hmm Google/Apple are making money on this or that, let's do one too."
Apple think, yes something's been done before but it's not practical/functional enough as it could be.
We have an idea, how we can make it easier/simpler/better, let's do it.

EG: Jonathan Ive & Steve Jobs have always criticised Mobile Phone Design in some way. So my guess is, is that they want to address that.
Yes my example (at then bottom) was based on my opinion based on two interviews and rumors circulation about an iPhone.

[Drew4884]

I love it! The orginal iPod thread is funny to read, all the #itching about how its just a dumb mp3 player....i got a good laugh....

Imagine 4 years from now....what do you see iTv doing?

Just throw out some ideas on what you think it could evolve into:

[BillHarrison]

yeah... clearly the options out there are amazing! Just go purchase a gaming console and configure the network for it, set up some streaming content from your PC and you're good to go. Nevermind the fact that the interface isn't built for this content, the setup is horrendous, the device is loud and huge, it won't stream iTunes content, and it costs the same. Better yet, build your own! Now we're talking the 90% case!



Dude, its very simple.

A: Network config is automatic, and very simple. Plug the xbox in, and its all set.

B: Setting up the streaming content from the pc is no different than setting it up on the mac, ie, requires you to do it. SO how is this a difference?

C: Interface not built for the content? Huh? MCE IS A MEDIA interface. How is it not built for it?

D: Setup horrendous? Takes around 30 seconds, first time around. Ya, thats tough!

E: Loud and huge? My 360 is roughly the size of my dvd player, and only a hair louder when playing games, and almost silent when in media center mode.

F: Wont stream iTunes, well, i guess to some thats a negative, but its really neither here nor there, ipods cant use the new unbox from amazon, but my mce can. Who knows here.

G: Costs the same: Perhaps, but when you get your iTV, how about you and I meet online for a game of Gears of WAR and do some online battling. Oh, wait, you can't. The iTV doesn't play games :D

[BillHarrison]

I love it! The orginal iPod thread is funny to read, all the #itching about how its just a dumb mp3 player....i got a good laugh....

Imagine 4 years from now....what do you see iTv doing?

Just throw out some ideas on what you think it could evolve into:

Just because Apple hit a home run with that one, does not turn this into one. How about the "Apple" Digicam, it was just another digicam, what made it better?

How is that doing these days?

[macdragonfl]

I think that what so great about this product and it's potential for sales is to existing mac customers, who I expect will buy in groves. It saves you from another computer to play content you already have, and at a lower price point than a mac mini. You can already have a dvr with eyetv and the such and keep the hardware hidden somewhere else in your house. It is also it good for the studios to see the product which will end up in more content by the time it ships. It was not what I expected but when I thought about it ITV makes a lot of sense.

[ftaok]

Just because Apple hit a home run with that one, does not turn this into one. How about the "Apple" Digicam, it was just another digicam, what made it better?

How is that doing these days?
Awww, c'mon Bill. The Quicktake is about 15 years old and that was way before Jobs came back from exile. Since the original iMac, Apple has rarely struck out on any product. Apple can't afford a big strike out.

Sure, not everything is a home run, but a double is still pretty good.

Here's my scorecard in no particular order.

G3 iMac - Grand Slam
toilet seat iBook - double
iceBook - Home Run
iPod - Grand Slam
iTMS - Grand Slam
Cube - strike out
G4 iMac - single
G4 PowerBook - triple
G5 PowerMac - triple
G5 iMac - double
Mac mini - triple
intel products - pending
iPod Boom Box - ground ball to second

Looks like a pretty good track record to me. YMMV.

[BenK01]

A couple of folks have mentioned this already, but this thing does not just have to be a glorified video connector. Bandwidth of broadband goes higher and higher, and there are going to be uses for that bandwidth.

iChat--very glorified... live hi res (or not) video conferencing from your living room to any place on the planet.

iMovie/podcasts--streaming the grandkids' video to the grandparents' television--over the internet... People will buy that.

iTunes--being able to authorize the box and sign in to your media content at home (or on .mac) from any where that has the capability.

Apple's culture hasn't just about providing media content from artists and movie studios, but about users creating and sharing content.

The concept is already there (share your photos, podcasts etc. etc.) .mac or something like it could create the ability for everyone to become a television producer and "broadcast," on demand, to anyone on the planet. Think youtube on steroids--with hidef and Apple simplicity. iLife with a button to send your production to your family (integrated into addressbook, of course) and it shows up on their TV menu.

Think Different here! The possibilities are endless (and didn't Apple purchase some property like a big server farm a while back?)

[Project]

I am reposting this comment from Slashdot as it echoes my thoughts perfectly. And also to the dude above, I was thinking the exact same thing about iChat... iChat AV through the television on Windows/Mac could be huge. But they would have to figure out the webcam part. Cant just build in an iSight if this thing sits below the TV.

---------
I downloaded The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy as a test.

- The movie is 1.22 GB, and downloaded in about 20 minutes on a 100 Mbps connection (Internet2).
- The movie was able to be played before downloading was finished, and could skip to anywhere in the content that was already complete.
- The content shows itself as being protected by "FairPlay Version: 2".
- The bitrate is 1.5Mbps.
- The framerate is 24fps.
- The audio on this particular movie is Protected AAC, stereo, 128kbps, 44.1kHz.
- The video on this particular movie is Protected H.264/AVC0 640x272 (Widescreen format, probably just 640x480 with the black bars eliminated).
- The video looks very good (indeed, "near DVD quality") on a high quality 20" LCD. (I'm not a "videophile", but this is absolutely more than watchable on a nice quality large TV or monitor, and I suspect most consumers would agree).
- The video can be played in QuickTime, and uses QuickTime Chapters for DVD chapters; chapters are also accessible in iTunes.
- The video file can be burned to a DVD, but you cannot burn the file as a video DVD.
- You can play the file on multiple computers (I *believe* up to three as opposed to five for music), or on an unlimited number of iPods (if the usage rights haven't changed with iTunes 7; I haven't looked through the terms - if someone knows this to be different please correct me. In any case, it's already less restrictive than Unbox).
- iTunes 7.0 requires QuickTime 7.1.3.
- Pretty much every movie I looked at was $9.99; some new releases were up to $14.99, but were cheaper if preordered.
- When used on a Mac in a media center configuration, or with the forthcoming iTV solution that will presumably be much like a video AirPort Express (and yes, I know it's not an AirPort Express, but it will probably act a lot like a AirPort Express functionally, except allowing the streaming of video to your TV), this will be a pretty compelling and vertically integrated solution for most consumers.

[SPUY767]

I'm starting to think that everyone on this forum has a desktop.

What frustrates me about what this device appears to be is that it requires a desktop computer somewhere that is always on. Otherwise you need to go grab your laptop from whatever room you left it in and plug it in any time you want to use it to watch a movie or listen to music.

I would like something that is NOT a computer, that I never have to connect a keyboard or mouse to that I can use to access my media.

Now if this device supports adding a usb hard drive (or can use a network drive) that you can sync to like an ipod, then I'll be interested. But if streaming is the only option then I think it is of minimal use to laptop users.

What would be really cool is if you could connect a usb drive to it and use that as the source for your media as well as the location that time machine uses to back up your data.

I think you're mi9ssing apple's philosophy. Why build an expensive device, that can potentially cost as much as a conmputer, and have all the parts of a computer without all the functionality of a computer? Apple's philosophy with products is exhibited here as well as in the iPods. Why don't iPods have FM Tuners, voice recorders, electric shavers, lint removers and cat grooming kits built in? Because apple would make a product that is insanely great at doing one thing thatn make a product that is undeniably mediocre at doing everything. Back to the iTV, this is a device designed to decode media into streams that a TV can use, nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps it will have a record capability that is as yet unannounced, who knows? As far as I'm concerned, apple's doing the right thing in making a quality product that excels at what it does and doesn't try to be a jack of all trades.

[SPUY767]

iTV is basically a better looking version and even higher priced version of this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6825322&st=media+extender&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1091101680429

Except that that thing would take an MIT PhD to figure out whereas residents of a nursing home should be able to figure out th iTV, so long as they are not red/green color blind.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

I have seen many post where OPs compare iTv with the iPod.
The brilliance with iPod was that its simplicity and it was compatible with all macs.
My question is: don't you need a 802.11n WiFi card to make the streaming possible? If so, doesn't that imply that you need a spanking new Mac/PC in order to use iTV? Assuming this is correct, it will put a serious cap on the potential buyers.

[BillHarrison]

Except that that thing would take an MIT PhD to figure out whereas residents of a nursing home should be able to figure out th iTV, so long as they are not red/green color blind.

And you base this on? How simple is the iTV to install and stream too? Ever used one? For that matter, ever used the Linksys extender?

My guess is you are exaggerating on both ends :D

[balamw]

Think Different here! The possibilities are endless (and didn't Apple purchase some property like a big server farm a while back?)
Yeah, I have been thinking that one reason for the delay in this product until early next year, might be that we will see fairly tight interconnection between the iTV and iLife '07. Much in the same way that Front Row pulls its photo content from iPhoto, we may see new features of this box that only make sense with iLife.

Of course this may pose some problems with the statements that it'll work with Mac or PC, unless it's similar to how Windows iTunes was previously unable to sync Calendars, Contacts and photos. The base functionality is there, but it works better with a Mac.

B

My question is: don't you need a 802.11n WiFi card to make the streaming possible? If so, doesn't that imply that you need a spanking new Mac/PC in order to use iTV? Assuming this is correct, it will put a serious cap on the potential buyers.
The iTV box clearly has both Ethernet and USB ports. Either could be used for wired connectivity. If it does require 802.11n, I'm sure Apple will oblige by giving you a nice new Airport Extreme or Express like box you can hook up to your Mac via plain old Ethernet.

B

[MacG]

A must have feature for iTV is wake on lan. I don't want to run my iMac up in my home office 24x7 (rather than having it 'sleep' when I'm not using it). iTV should be able to issue a wake on lan command to my iMac so that when I try and browse pictures or music stored on my iMac from the living room I don't have to run upstairs and turn the thing on.

[balamw]

A must have feature for iTV is wake on lan.
I was thinking the same, but is there a wireless Wake-On-LAN?

B

[biggerbearbrian]

i dont' want to burst your bubble, but joe everyman doesn't own a mac, he owns a dell he bought fot $499 on teh intarweb super special.

apple sells things to gadgeteers and "artists"

aside from the ipod - they don't sell anything in quantity - and this isn't going to be an exception.

Didn't the keynote mention it would be PC and MAC?

[balamw]

Didn't the keynote mention it would be PC and MAC?
I think his point was the $499 Dell owner might think twice about a $299 add on to his PC.

B

[biggerbearbrian]

I think his point was the $499 Dell owner might think twice about a $299 add on to his PC.

B

Gotcha, but the fact that this seems to be the "Living Room" piece of the puzzle would mean their business plan is to do the same thing they've done with the iPod which sold big once it was PC compatible. So "Joe Dell Owner" can stream his media from his Dell, opening the possibility of a larger market than just Mac owners. Whether the plan works or not is certainly debateable, but its obviously what they are wanting to do with this business-wise.

[SPUY767]

My 1.2GHz iBook handles any H.264 around 480p just fine, it chokes on the higher HD resolutions though. 640x480 plays just fine at 1.3mbps.

This thing is soooo getting a USB port somewhere on it to plug in an iPod and will boast on-screen navigation for all the iPod's content. That'd be sweet for people like me without all the top technology. Rip some DVDs to the iPod then plug the iPod into the iTV and use the remote to navigate.

Of course, Apple could just get off their arse and update the 5G software to output the interface to a TV via the Universal Dock. If it did that I'd probably start whinging now to get one for my birthday.

Yes, chundles, but your iBook is using software decoding to decode the H.264 stream, this device is clearly going to use a dedicated H.264 decoder chip and will thus have no problems decoding the highest resolution streams, i.e. 1080i.

[MacG]

I was thinking the same, but is there a wireless Wake-On-LAN?

B
It exists - but not sure if Apple implements it. Intel's wireless solutions support it - so if Apple uses Intel chipsets for wireless support then maybe macs will support wirelesss WOL.

http://www.intel.com/network/connectivity/products/wireless/prowireless_mobile.htm

[SPUY767]

Just because Apple hit a home run with that one, does not turn this into one. How about the "Apple" Digicam, it was just another digicam, what made it better?

How is that doing these days?


Are you comparing the quicktake, originally released in 1992 to a ive/Jobs era product? Get a clue.

[SPUY767]

And you base this on? How simple is the iTV to install and stream too? Ever used one? For that matter, ever used the Linksys extender?

My guess is you are exaggerating on both ends :D

I helped a friend set up the Linksys unit and it's a pain in the ass. it's dangerous to assume anything, but I think that we can safely assume that the iTV will be a plug and play device.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

The iTV box clearly has both Ethernet and USB ports. Either could be used for wired connectivity. If it does require 802.11n, I'm sure Apple will oblige by giving you a nice new Airport Extreme or Express like box you can hook up to your Mac via plain old Ethernet.
I am quite sure there will be a wired work-around, but doesnt this fail the original concept? This snag and the fact that iTV doesnt replace the DVR, makes me think that future of iTV might not be as glorious as some posters have suggested.

[aswitcher]

I am quite sure there will be a wired work-around, but doesnt this fail the original concept? This snag and the fact that iTV doesnt replace the DVR, makes me think that future of iTV might not be as glorious as some posters have suggested.

Thats why Apple need to release the Mac Pro Mini.

Also, where do most people have their aerials for TV. Living room - not with their Mac. So you need a Mac in the living room to begin with.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Thats why Apple need to release the Mac Pro Mini.

Also, where do most people have their aerials for TV. Living room - not with their Mac. So you need a Mac in the living room to begin with.
I couldn't agree more.
However I would prefer a beefed up Mini with 3.5'' HD, Tv-tuner and frontrow on steriods. Perhaps, even doubling as an Airport Extreme.
Still I can see the need for a downsized Mac Pro. The gap between the Mini and the Pro is ...big...very very big.

[Mr. Pippin]

Though it's argued back and forth, I'm surprised I don't see any mention of "bluetooth" being supported on this.

The state of bluetooth should be at the point of supporting good stereo headphones. That would seem worthwhile. to me.

That would also be a key attraction for some audio use.

[greg6028]

This is a GREAT COME-BACK to the iTV debate!

Does this thread remind anyone of the original iPod thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500)?

"gee! an mp3 player with a HD! how original! kinda reminds me of a JUKEBOX i once knew."

vs.

"What a disappointment... I guess Apple is just trying to stave off the competition from the media capabilities of Windows Media Center and XBOX."

--

"There are already two products similar to this on the market. The Nomad Jukebox and the Archos Jukebox which can come with a 20 gig HD [4x the storage]. Apple is playing catch-up."

vs.

"When this thing surpasses the capabilities of my Windows media center and Xbox 360 combo then I will be impressed. Until then Apple is playing catch up to MCE and playing it poorly."

--

"I have a Nomad Jukebox with a 6gig hardrive and it only cost me $250. It works great and syncs fine with the computer and the transfer is relativley fast. I don't know what the big deal is. So...it works well with apple's software....big deal, anyone can do that. There is nothing there of interest."

vs.

"Yawn. How is this any different than my DSM-520 running along side my TVersity sever? It can handle just about every single codec/format I throw at it and is linked via usb 2.0 to my 500GB Western Digital MyBook. Yes Divx, TS, VOD, Pictures, Music, you name it. The D-Link was under $200...and released nearly a whole year before this locked down proprietary (you know it will definitely not be supporting the UPnP AV / DLNA standard) iTV nonesense. This is nothing new people...we've been streaming media from servers to our TVs for quite some time"

--

"Not revolutionary. Big capacity mp3 players already exist. With Creative Labs' entrance into the firewire arena, future nomads will have similar specs and better prices."

vs.

"For $300 I built a Windows MCE box that plays back 1080i content flawlessly thanks to an GeForce 6600 and Nvidia's excellent Purevideo decoder which means GPU-assisted decoding negating the need for an expensive CPU. Doesn't get any better than MCE + MyMovies right now, sorry."

--

yeah... clearly the options out there are amazing! Just go purchase a gaming console and configure the network for it, set up some streaming content from your PC and you're good to go. Nevermind the fact that the interface isn't built for this content, the setup is horrendous, the device is loud and huge, it won't stream iTunes content, and it costs the same. Better yet, build your own! Now we're talking the 90% case!

I think those that understand that folks who start subscribing to season passes, downloading content to iTunes, importing DVDs on their machines... these are the folks this device will work for. Without any extra work, it's now available on your TV. Subscribe to the daily show? $10/month and you have every episode in the living room.

I understand the use and necessity of DVRs at the current moment in time, but the concept exists only due to a restriction from the existing state of media. 300+ channels, all scheduled out by 30-minute time slots? This is a relic of an old era. I have a TiVO and I love it, but I can see the future is away from this, and this device puts apple right there ready for it.

[Bobthemonkey]

Most people now recieve broadband via a combined modem router unit, often with wifi onboard. Most companies seem to offer these with their better packages. As they are stand alone and don't require an active computer to run.

Now take the iTV with a decent amount of onboard NAND (4GB). It sync with your iTunes account what media you own the rights to, so if your macs off, whats to stop the iTV accessing the movies directly from the internet rather than your computer, in a smilar manner to .mac. The data ammount this would need probably wouldn't be suitable for music but it would work for movies or for photo's on .mac.

Just a thought. Would be good with a new airport base station. (replace the dialup with dsl) - actually the unit i'm using now looks like a mac ripoff.
http://digital-lifestyles.info/display_page.asp?section=distribution&id=3404 - phone optional

[markw10]

I'm excited about this new product. I don't know if I'll use it or not though. I had already been thinking of getting a mac mini for my living room and the basement tv sometime, to use with front row to play any videos, music, and also show pictures that I have on my computer. This gives me all of that for far less than a mac mini, just $299.
The only thing is my idea is also I could use it as a living room computer. I'm not really interested in being able to do actual computer work such as with Adobe, etc. that I use for my job. It's mainly for something simple like web browsing. I think if they simply build in a web browser that would be a great thing.
Someone mentioned earlier they hope the Macs aren't ignored. I hope Apple never does this. I just switched from PC's a few days ago and it's great. It's great to see them forming into such a media company and it does tie in great with the Mac.

[digitalbiker]

I think that what so great about this product and it's potential for sales is to existing mac customers, who I expect will buy in groves. It saves you from another computer to play content you already have, and at a lower price point than a mac mini.


How do you figure? You still need a computer to play content to the iTV. iTV only works with iTunes or QuickTime, how are you going to play content from those applications if you don't have a computer.

I still just see iTV as a wireless ADC/HDMI cable to the TV set. It is a good idea and it does give Apple a complete solution from download to your TV. But I think it is way over priced.

I would rather use on-demand or directv ppv with DVR. It is a lot cheaper and it is true 720p or 1080i resolution with 1080p on the horizon. PPV on DirecTV costs all of $3.99 a movie. The equipment is usually discounted or free with a subscription.

[balamw]

The equipment is usually discounted or free with a subscription.
Which is why you rarely see the real cost of these devices. (like mobile phones).

The $99 (list price) DTV HD Receiver is probably worth $299 already, they just have you with a $40/month plan to subsidize the hardware costs. I know I paid $399 after $200 rebate for my HR10-250 not too long ago. I comitted to 2 years of HD DTV programming to get the rebate.

B

[digitalbiker]

Which is why you rarely see the real cost of these devices. (like mobile phones).

The $99 (list price) DTV HD Receiver is probably worth $299 already, they just have you with a $40/month plan to subsidize the hardware costs. I know I paid $399 after $200 rebate for my HR10-250 not too long ago. I comitted to 2 years of HD DTV programming to get the rebate.

B

Yes, they do hide the cost in the subscription. But don't you think $40.00 a month is a much more reasonable plan than $14.99 a movie, plus a computer, plus iTV plus monthly high-speed bandwidth costs.

The general masses that buy their TV's and Windows PC's at Walmart are not switching soon.

I imagine the mac faithful will love the download service. I just don't currently see it moving to the masses.

[Peace]

Yes, they do hide the cost in the subscription. But don't you think $40.00 a month is a much more reasonable plan than $14.99 a movie, plus a computer, plus iTV plus monthly high-speed bandwidth costs.

The general masses that buy their TV's and Windows PC's at Walmart are not switching soon.

I imagine the mac faithful will love the download service. I just don't currently see it moving to the masses.

I really don't believe iTV/Movie downloads are meant to replace services like Satellite or Cable.

[h00ligan]

Joe Everyman wants to own a Mac and is on their way in the near future to buy one. Cuz they ain't just for gadgeteers and "artists" any more. That old adage is going away faster than you think.
And as stated this little box isn't OS dependent so even if Joe Everyman doesn't have a Mac now he can use iTunes for Windopes in the meantime until he wakes up one day with Apple on the brain and finds himself at the Apple store buying a Mac.

p.s. I think it was a very wise move for ole Steve to be so un-Apple like and give the world a preview into this particular product.

I can tell you as an IT manager with 14 years in the industry and working in Manhattan for publishing, branding, ad agencies, that's not the case. Joe everyman wants a cheap pc that is compatible with the rest of the world, not 4% market share. Joe Everyman doesn't want to learn a new os. Joe everyman relies on outlook, for which entourage is no substitute, and joe everyman wants it all cheap ~$500.

I'm PRO Apple, I'm Pro iPod, I'm Pro everything here - which is why i belong here.. one of my friends is a developer there even... but do some research and you will see that the marketshare numbers for Mac sales have been spun, apple is LOSING share on the PC front. Ipods and the like, sure, they are selling well for now - Wallstreet seems to see an imminent bubble pop - and these are expert analysts. Maybe they'll be wrong, but apple is not going ot rocket to the limelight where Microsoft failed on the media center front without a lot of passed time, and a lot of added expense.

[h00ligan]

you know, one key point is - can i stream divx files or non purchased stuff - will it only support h264?

dahn dahn dahn

[SiliconAddict]

Next week I'm upgrading my MBP's hard drive to a 160GB drive. The existing 100GB drive is going into an external cage. The one thing I want to know is can I hook up said external drive to the iTV. This streaming crap is just that. Why would I want to stream when I could just as easily hook up a drive to the box and not hit my network with pointless overhead.
Overall I'm....interested. I'm not sold simply because I'm getting the vibe that Apple once again is going to do something that is Mac centric instead of media center (Stand alone) centric. we'll see though. This is a new tactic for Apple. Showing hardware this early in the game. I think they are trying for a viral approach to creating buzz this time. Show a snippet now with features that aren’t being shown. Create enough of a buzz to make some people hold off over the holiday shopping season, and bam. Solid sales come January when I’m assuming they launch it. (MWSF anyone?)

[SiliconAddict]

I can tell you as an IT manager with 14 years in the industry and working in Manhattan for publishing, branding, ad agencies, that's not the case. Joe everyman wants a cheap pc that is compatible with the rest of the world, not 4% market share. Joe Everyman doesn't want to learn a new os. Joe everyman relies on outlook, for which entourage is no substitute, and joe everyman wants it all cheap ~$500.

I'm PRO Apple, I'm Pro iPod, I'm Pro everything here - which is why i belong here.. one of my friends is a developer there even... but do some research and you will see that the marketshare numbers for Mac sales have been spun, apple is LOSING share on the PC front. Ipods and the like, sure, they are selling well for now - Wallstreet seems to see an imminent bubble pop - and these are expert analysts. Maybe they'll be wrong, but apple is not going ot rocket to the limelight where Microsoft failed on the media center front without a lot of passed time, and a lot of added expense.


++ Let me add to that. I do Dell warrantee work and for all the people who bitch about Dell there are A LOT of people willing to deal with the headaches because of that $300-$400 price tag. Let’s not get into the whole "You get more with a Mac." That may be true but at the end of the day this is a Walmart world. Price is everything. And many if not most people will look for the cheapest (in price) computer they can find and that isn't a Mac.

PS- That being said I can't tell you how many people ask why as someone who is doing Dell work why I'm carrying a Mac around with me...Q&A's generally follow as I work on their Dell with their fried motherboard. :D

[EagerDragon]

Like it or not we have not seen all the features of this baby. Also that USB is very curious, it maybe used as an input or as an output. You maybe able to connect an elgato to it or use it for external usb hard drive, or it maybe used to connect to cable box to change channels, lots of possibilities.

HOWEVER...... Until we hear more about it, it is a fat Airport Express with HDMI port. :p I put it in the same class as the iPod failed boombox "HI-FI". Close but no cigar, at least not yet.

[EagerDragon]

I'm starting to think that everyone on this forum has a desktop.

What frustrates me about what this device appears to be is that it requires a desktop computer somewhere that is always on. Otherwise you need to go grab your laptop from whatever room you left it in and plug it in any time you want to use it to watch a movie or listen to music.

I would like something that is NOT a computer, that I never have to connect a keyboard or mouse to that I can use to access my media.

Now if this device supports adding a usb hard drive (or can use a network drive) that you can sync to like an ipod, then I'll be interested. But if streaming is the only option then I think it is of minimal use to laptop users.

What would be really cool is if you could connect a usb drive to it and use that as the source for your media as well as the location that time machine uses to back up your data.

2 laptops here and 1 desktop, next year 1 more laptop and a dual quad Mac Pro, maybe a few minis to use as servers or NAS. No future plans for wirelss streaming here.

You can put the computer close to the TV with a wire or you can put it in another room with this device. You still need to get up to go to the other room to eject the dvd and put a new one in, you need to go to the other room to change the channel that comes out of the cablebox. Sounds like more running around than putting the computer in the living room and using a cable. Since you need a computer eitherway and can use Front Row in either setup, the wireless solution is a lot more expensive. Also since the content is 640x480 from iTunes to the PC or to the iPod, you can cable the iPod to the TV for 20 or 40 bucks and not use the computer other than to download and to load the iPod every few days. Looks like it is in the same class as the HI-FI, a flop so far. Maybe in the future it will evolve and because a must have, so why buy now, why not wait until it is really useful?

[EagerDragon]

I am really struck by just how many really geeky, elitist, techno-snobs there are posting here who are more interested in bending the world around them to their shape, than in doing what a smart business -- like Apple -- does: They actually look at the vast sea of real customers, and create new products that will sell in large numbers. Apple's customer is not 'you,' Mister (or Ms.) TechnoGeek. The customer here is Jane and Joe Everyman... the same people now buying the vast majority of iMacs, minis, and iPods. And, from that view, that's me: Joe Everyman.

I watch video of all qualities, including really screwy VHS tapes from 10-years ago with lines flickering through the image. I also watch some hi-def, with most stuff being generally broadcast or commercial DVD quality. I watch it all, as I am really into the stories portrayed in these movies and shows, and care much less about the gem-like perfection of the image. If you'll go out into the middle-class neighborhoods of the world and talk to real families, you'll find a prevalence of this same attitude. "Quality" is secondary to content to the mass market.

You, Mister TechnoGeek, may have a home stuffed with leading edge electronics... 102 inch plasmas... gigbit Ethernet everywhere... dedicated rackmount media servers... whatever. I am proud for you. But, Joe and Jane are out here with a 20-inch TV in the bedroom connected to a 5 yr old VCR and a 1 yr old DVD player, and they have a 27-inch CRT set, or 52-inch rear projection set in the living room connected to a cable box, a 2 yr old VCR, and a new DVD player (not "progressive scan," either... the mid-priced one from Target). We see flat panel sets when we shop, and hear a few friends brag about them... we are talking about buying one. We have a nice PC in the corner or in the bedroom... or, we're thinking about replacing the old PC, and are aware of the new Apple products. We're 'hip' enough to use some technology, but we don't live it and breathe it. We are avid iPod/iTunes users, and iTunes store shoppers.

That all said, I now see Apple showing a little box that I can plug into the 52-inch set in the living room wiht one cable. And, magically I can now watch any video that's on our PC on that TV set... AND can control it all with a little simple remote control that works with the PC back in the bedroom. My response is, "Wow, that's cool!" And, despite my somewhat backwards appearance to the technology cogniscenti of the world, I actually do spend cash on cool grdagets from time to time... like that $350 iPod I own. I have that $299 sitting here to spend on something simple and cool like this iTV box.

Joe and Jane don't know that ElGato exists, and would never dream of trying to figure out how to start hanging peripherals off their PC and getting multiple doodads working together. They're just not into that sort of tinkering. They have real lives. And, they just want to plug something in, and instantly have it work. And, they want to just push a button or two, sit down on their sofa, and watch their videos of choice. No hassle.

Welcome to the next era of transitioning Joe and Jane away from real-time content and into the world of content on demand. Apple really did just fire the magic bullet by showing us this one elegantly simple end to end solution possibility.

If you don't get it, you're probably not in Apple's vast target demograpic for the iTunes Store or the iTV. I am. I get it. And, I want two of these right now... for the living room and the bedroom.
Apple also sells iPods that play videos and a cable that let you connect the iPod to the TV. That would be cheaper and simpler for Joe and Jane, besides their old computer would need an upgrade anyway to 802.11N in order to do the Magic. The iPod they already have all they need is a cable. Now that is simple and cost effective, and gets the same resolution.

[EagerDragon]

Does this unit allow you to browse and download films and TV shows from the iTunes Store direct from your TV, or do you have to go to your Mac to do that?
Looks like you can browse, see some previews, but to download and stream you need a computer (based on what seen so far).

[EagerDragon]

Well I hope Apple reads this blog. I think there are a lot of opinions here that would be very useful to them. Sorry not buying, but others will. Would be nice to have a poll for all the main opinions to round this up.

[digitalbiker]

Like it or not we have not seen all the features of this baby. Also that USB is very curious, it maybe used as an input or as an output. You maybe able to connect an elgato to it or use it for external usb hard drive, or it maybe used to connect to cable box to change channels, lots of possibilities.

HOWEVER...... Until we hear more about it, it is a fat Airport Express with HDMI port. :p I put it in the same class as the iPod failed boombox "HI-FI". Close but no cigar, at least not yet.

I agree.

However I think this thing could be a great big seller if it also did the TV process in reverse. In otherwords, what if this thing took high-def cable, satellite, component in, encoded the signal on the fly and streamed back to your computer. With a nice new Apple software package you could have a killer "Fat Airport Express / DVR system". That would probably fly off the shelves at $299.00.

[engvold]

Back in 1996 I worked with the Apple new technology solution organisation with Satjiv Chahil in an attempt to connect the Apple Pippin project (gaming solution that took off in Asia but never materialised in US). Back then the internet and wireless networks were pretty much non-existent or in an embryonic stage. Now with the technology infrastructure of the internet and wireless in place today, the iTV product initiative fits in real well. However, IMO this is rather a feable solution that satisfies a single initiative (to promote and encourage sales and use of the iTunes solutions).... Yes, I know focus is good and margins are usually much better for simplicity technology (as I like to call it), but you guys at Apple are already out-done by existing product lines out there. Case in point... check out SkipJam ( http://www.skipjam.com )and NetGear ( http://www.netgear.com ) which has aquired SkipJam recently (Press release: http://www.netgear.com/About/PressReleases/en-US/2006/20060802b.aspx ).

IMO, the product solutions that SkipJam has and will be enhanced with the new Netgear technology solutions (e.g. routing technologies, system integration technologies, wireless technologies, etc...) will run circles around the iTV product that is still in the development phase. I know Netgear is working closely with major technology industry players regarding this home entertainment / home monitoring / multimedia / computer marriage solution us technologist have been working on standardising for the last 10 years... Maybe Apple should form a business alliance (JDA or the like) with NetGear and enhance its product solutions and offerings in a quicker to market, more cost effective and standardising manner without doing the old IBM mistake of trying to be the ruler and owner of a technology standard that no one wants to embrace or, more importantly, plug into (remember Object Oriented design?)

Well so much from a guy who has been working and dreaming about this wonderful stuff for 30 years. I used to dream of this when my Dad, who worked for IBM 38 years, took me to the opening showing of 2001 Space Odyssey and I saw HAL and the astronauts talking, playing chess, watching TV and video conferencing on a flat notebook pad... amazing how Hollywood dreams can become reality... Oh, by the way, remember how everything in the movie 2001 was in a lovely Apple white! ;-)

I hope you guys at Apple can make even better things happen with the like of NetGear and SkipJam! Fact is, I bet you could standardise solutions with your iTV solution and that of NetGear's... the tough cookie to crack will be the politics, patents and inventions... I know... been there, done that, wore that T-shirt... wish I could have worn those Apple blue-jeans to work though... usually had to wear an IBM "shrink wrapped" suite..LOL.

Good Night and good luck you lucky technologist... I say "lucky" because you are following through on the dream I had as a child in 1968 and in the companies I worked for over the last 10 years. If you have any questions, though, I would love to answer, you can email me at engvold@mcint.net ... I always love to dream and evangelize.

Sincerely,
Karl Engvold
MultiMedia Consultants International
http://www.mcint.net

[Lynxpoint]

another interesting twist on this type of device is if it could act as a thin client like the CE based citrix terminals.

[balamw]

But don't you think $40.00 a month is a much more reasonable plan than $14.99 a movie, plus a computer, plus iTV plus monthly high-speed bandwidth costs.

I really don't believe iTV/Movie downloads are meant to replace services like Satellite or Cable.
It really all depends on how much TV you watch, and what content is available on the service.

There were folks who did the cost analysis when the TV shows first got added to iTMS that they could definitely come out ahead financially if they just subscribed to The Daily Show + Colbert + The Office and 1 or 2 other shows, since when they are runnning reruns they don't have to pay. (Unlike cable/satellite).

If all you watch is a movie + follow one show a month you're looking at $14.99 + $1.99x4 = $23 instead of $40/month for cable or satellite, less when the shows are in reruns. (I don't include the cost of broadband, since you'd still have to pay for that if you had cable or satellite.)

B

[guylafleur]

:mad: I`m waiting a year or two until this 24" imac has Blue Ray, a 1 terabyte HD as standard, and iTunes has matured abit with this TV show/movie tingy.:p

Then I`ll pull the cable box out of my TV and just use the DVR for that and the imac for itunes stuff.

Never the twain shall meet.;)

[Passante]

Not that there's a terribly large number of ways to create a media hub device but seeing the iTV (exactly what I'd hoped and predicted except $100 more) (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2795957#post2795957) makes me wonder even more if this isn't Elgato's EyeHome dressed up in a shiny Apple wrapper. You really have to dig through Elgato's site to find the EyeHome anymore, as if they are sort of quietly phasing it out...like SoundJam before iTunes...

iTV
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57306&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1158112387

EyeHome
http://www.mjsoft.co.jp/pickup/057703/back.jpg

All the naysayers are missing the point. Take it from someone who has used the EyeHome for a couple years...having all your music, pictures, and videos (yes, Handbraked DVDs of course as a "video jukebox", but home videos! anyone here have kids!!?) instantly accessible on the living room TV is great. You just don't get it until you've used it. Just like you couldn't imagine what anyone would want with 10,000 songs in their pocket until you fondled your first iPod. And now with the Apple spit and polish, I'll buy one on Day #1 to replace the EyeHome.

I agree with this post. I plan to get a mini to manage my music & photo collection and put it under my TV. So when I want to show photos to people they can look at a 35 inch screen instead of a 20 inch screen. My main computer moves upstairs out of the family room.

But my main computer is more powerful than the mini and has more hard drive space. So I do all my photoshop work and DVD burning upstairs. So I either have to stream it Mac to Mac or sneaker net it downstairs. iTV solves this problem for me.

[needthephone]

At first I though this was like a big ipod which connected directly to the internet so you could download stuff from itunes. But to have to use it with a computer stops my excitement in its tracks. You don't need a computer to use an ipod (well only to download songs to it but not to listen to it) so why have to have a computer with this.

I'm fed up with the computer being central to everything-is it just ways to sell more imacs?

What I want is something which could connect to itunes directly, which you could browse with the remote control, had its own internal storage and the ability to add tunes via your existing CD player connected to it and also have video recording abilities.

This just seems an extension of a computer, won't be getting it if this is what it is.

[Macnoviz]

another interesting twist on this type of device is if it could act as a thin client like the CE based citrix terminals.

come again?

I'm not Joe average when it comes to computers, but you'll have to clarify that one (yes, I am too lazy to google and wikipedia (is that a verb? It is now !))

[janstett]

Is there really that much difference between 640 and 720? Seems funny to say one is "not pretty" but those extra 80 lines (and no difference in the other dimension) make it acceptable.

Standard definition TV or DVD is 720x480 (480i/p in HDTV lingo).

HDTV is 1280x720 (720p) or 1920x1080 (1080i/p)

It's 720x480 not 640x480 because TV pixels are not square, computer pixels are.

[DrFrankTM]

If it did support HD??

thats kinda stupid considering it has HDMI and component connectors.

Hmmm... Yeah. I honestly don't understand why people would question that. I mean: HDMI stands for "High-Definition Multimedia Interface". I might be dense sometimes, but I'd assume Apple would have put composite and/or S-video connectors instead if they didn't care about HD. The latter would probably be much cheaper.

Apple is not selling HD content on the iTS, but that doesn't mean they won't allow you to stream whatever HD content you have from your computer to your TV. For example, I'm pretty sure that at least some iPods are carrying some songs that were not bought on the iTMS. Don't you think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_Interface

[DrFrankTM]

I Can't see Apple adding a DVR (TV recorder) because they want you to buy TV shows, Movies and Music off iTunes not off the TV! lol. If they did, people would probably stop buying content off iTunes.

In the future I'm sure we will see more HD Content on the iTunes store and some other features :) i.e. When broadband speeds increase a bit more (HD content is huge! Ever tried watching a HD Trailer? lol)

Also I hope they change the code-name from iTv to something else because there is a Television network in the UK called ITV :O...could get confusing and possible lawsuits.

(sorry if all of this has been mentioned already)

Considering that Apple is not really making a lot of money from music downloads and that the content sold on the iTMS mostly fuels hardware sales, I'm not all that convinced that they'll have a fat margin on movie downloads. I read somewhere - I don't recall where though, sorry - that an average movie (at the actual resolution) would be something like 800-900 megs. They sells those for 10$ or so. A music album as sold on the iTMS is what? 100 megs, top? I don't know exactly, but I'm sure everyone will get the idea. If bandwidth costs were a significant expense for music downloads, they'll be ever more so for movies, and Apple is asking roughly the same price for an 800-megs movie or a 100-megs music album. Yes, they might make a few bucks from the sale of content, but I still believe that, for Apple, that's not where the real money is. I haven't dissected hard numbers though, so feel free to fill in the blanks and shoot down my balloon as you see fit.

[macdragonfl]

How do you figure? You still need a computer to play content to the iTV. iTV only works with iTunes or QuickTime, how are you going to play content from those applications if you don't have a computer.

I still just see iTV as a wireless ADC/HDMI cable to the TV set. It is a good idea and it does give Apple a complete solution from download to your TV. But I think it is way over priced.

I would rather use on-demand or directv ppv with DVR. It is a lot cheaper and it is true 720p or 1080i resolution with 1080p on the horizon. PPV on DirecTV costs all of $3.99 a movie. The equipment is usually discounted or free with a subscription.

Sure rental is different, maybe Apple will also do a rental model. But existing Mac users already have the computer. I think it would be great at $199.00, but $299.00 is a price most Mac users are comfortable with Think IPod. I already have a computer and was thinking of Mac Mini on my home theatre. This is a cheaper option for me just having to add TV Mini HD to my computer and streaming to ITv

[DrFrankTM]

Steve has been looking thinner and thinner.

Am I the only one that noticed? Today he wore a regular shirt...no mock turtleneck. I bet his neck looked too thin in one.

Perhaps the sneak peak - which Apple NEVER does, because he wanted to announce this because won't be around by the 1st Q of 2007.

You know... It will sound cheesy and all, but I'll say it anyways. Some great men and women *have* truly made "a dent in the universe" (if I recall His Steveness's words correctly). One day, Steve Jobs will die. His physical shell will be broken. But I'll also say that he's already earned his own little immortality, in the same way as, let's say, Mozart did. So yeah... in a way, he can't die that easily.

As an Apple shareholder though, I hear you and take notice. If he's dying tomorrow, I'd rather sell today, because the stock would take quite a beating if he died suddenly without tons of prior reassurances and insurance policies for the future of the company, i.e. a solid succession plan.

As others have said though, the sneak peek seems geared at convincing the reluctant movie studios that they need to get their stuff on the iTS asap or else they'll be left behind when everyone abandons DVDs (or so the RDF goes). We'll see. I hope the guy sticks around a long time though.

[DrFrankTM]

I'm starting to think that everyone on this forum has a desktop.

What frustrates me about what this device appears to be is that it requires a desktop computer somewhere that is always on. Otherwise you need to go grab your laptop from whatever room you left it in and plug it in any time you want to use it to watch a movie or listen to music.

I would like something that is NOT a computer, that I never have to connect a keyboard or mouse to that I can use to access my media.

Now if this device supports adding a usb hard drive (or can use a network drive) that you can sync to like an ipod, then I'll be interested. But if streaming is the only option then I think it is of minimal use to laptop users.

What would be really cool is if you could connect a usb drive to it and use that as the source for your media as well as the location that time machine uses to back up your data.

It has built-in wireless and a USB port. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to pull content from a NAS or an external USB drive without requiring any computer whatsoever. Of course, I assume that you'll need a computer to add more stuff to your NAS, but who knows? Maybe you'll be able to connect to the iTS directly and send the content straight to the USB drive or NAS. Anyways, I'd be really disappointed if the iTV can't play your content without a computer.

Honestly though, it's Apple we're talking about! Do you think Steve would approve a product that requires the user to walk to another room to turn on a computer whenever he or she wants to listen to a few songs or watch some (downloaded) TV? Apple's been working on this one for a while, I think. It won't be everything to everyone, but it won't be that lame, I'm pretty sure.

[oootle]

Does iTV have a hard-drive so content can be accessed with the computer off

[Lynxpoint]

come again?

I'm not Joe average when it comes to computers, but you'll have to clarify that one (yes, I am too lazy to google and wikipedia (is that a verb? It is now !))

citrix terminal services for windows allows clients to have a desktop environment on their client computer that runs entirely on the server. Citrix thin client machines are basically network access points that only run the thin client software so that while you are clicking, typing, and viewing on the terminal, everything is being processed on the server.

The application here would be that just as front row would pull media from a mac/pc in another room, you could click on something to pull up your desktop to check your mail from the livingroom. You could do work on your mac/pc from the livingroom if you wanted to. For those that would do the odd thing in the livingroom this would be a cheaper approach than having a mini in the livingroom as a second computer.

[greenstork]

Having thought on the value of this device for the past couple of days, I think I've come around a bit.

It is a glorified wireless HDMI/digital audio link that also includes extensive iLife integration. Since I'm a mac user already, and pretty entrenched with iLife, I don't really have a problem with the tight systems integration. What it boils down to for me, is whether or not the iTV will stream higher resolution HD signals. If it can handle wireless 1080p or even 1080i streaming without significant compression (which I seriously doubt), then it's a STEAL for $299.

What's bugging me and it's bugged me about Microsoft and other companies for years, is that you're forced into Apple's world. It will only work with iTunes & Quicktime. 3rd party developers can't develop software that streams to the iTV, the same way that the iPod only works in iTunes. It's a very closed system.

I wanted an Apple DVR, there is no doubt that they could have done it better than anyone else. I'm sure I could build my own but it would never have the ease of use of my TiVo, and countless Apple products. iTV just missed the boat for this consumer.

If I'm going to have to "roll my own", then I don't want to be tied in to using iTunes/Quicktime. EDIT: I'm probably just going to get one of these DVI to HDMI cables (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-hdmi_cables.html#hdmidvi-r2) instead of an overly expensive wireless option.

[greenstork]

++ Let me add to that. I do Dell warrantee work and for all the people who bitch about Dell there are A LOT of people willing to deal with the headaches because of that $300-$400 price tag. Let’s not get into the whole "You get more with a Mac." That may be true but at the end of the day this is a Walmart world. Price is everything. And many if not most people will look for the cheapest (in price) computer they can find and that isn't a Mac.

PS- That being said I can't tell you how many people ask why as someone who is doing Dell work why I'm carrying a Mac around with me...Q&A's generally follow as I work on their Dell with their fried motherboard. :D

C'mon, those Dells never end up costing $300-400. I mean, I guess they do if you get an optical drive that can only play CDs and 256MB of memory, and a 40GB hard drive, but I would guess that most people ultimately end up dissatisfied with these low end computers after a short while. You get what you pay for.

[balamw]

3rd party developers can't develop software that streams to the iTV, the same way that the iPod only works in iTunes. It's a very closed system.
The closed system didn't stop DVDJon from releasing JustePort or Rogue Amoeba from developing Airfoil (http://www.rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/) for the Airport Express.

B

[greenstork]

The closed system didn't stop DVDJon from releasing JustePort or Rogue Amoeba from developing Airfoil (http://www.rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/) for the Airport Express.

B

Yeah, and that so seamless (and ethical) for the average consumer, I think you're missing my point.

EDIT: I stand corrected with Airfoil, I'd never seen that before. Usually apple goes to great lengths to limit 3rd party developers access to their hardware, tying consumers in to the Apple system, closing APIs, etc.

[balamw]

Yeah, and that so seamless (and ethical) for the average consumer, I think you're missing my point.
And you mine. Airfoil is pretty seamless and allows you to play any audio through your airport express, including WMA. I believe they're just using the existing APIs, unlike DVD Jon. What's so unethical about that?

EDIT: Just saw your edit. No need to respond to the above.

For a closed system QT is actually quite open since Apple tends to adhere to existing standards and submit other things for consideration as standards, e.g. AAC and H.264 which are both part of the MPEG-4 standard, and there are many non-Apple tools to generate compatible files. Where are the third party WMA/WMV tools?

B

[LaMerVipere]

I only just watched the Keynote Stream (hey, I've been busy all week, cut me some slack!) and I was only moderately excited watching the thing before Steve previewed the "iTV" and then my excitement just went through the roof.

This really is an amazing and revolutionary product, I think. It's going to be like taking iTunes out of cyberspace and into the real world. I can't wait, I'm buying one!

I wonder though, since Steve didn't address this, but since the "iTV" does not have a DVD player built in, if you don't buy movies from iTunes, can you just put the DVD in whatever computer is connected to the "iTV" and stream it that way?

Questions, questions...

[powerbook911]

I only just watched the Keynote Stream (hey, I've been busy all week, cut me some slack!) and I was only moderately excited watching the thing before Steve previewed the "iTV" and then my excitement just went through the roof.

This really is an amazing and revolutionary product, I think. It's going to be like taking iTunes out of cyberspace and into the real world. I can't wait, I'm buying one!

I wonder though, since Steve didn't address this, but since the "iTV" does not have a DVD player built in, if you don't buy movies from iTunes, can you just put the DVD in whatever computer is connected to the "iTV" and stream it that way?

Questions, questions...

I agree. That is an excellent question. I'd like to be able to do that as well. Reason being I only have 3 digital audio inputs, so having a DVD player and iTV would take up 2, and that sucks. :( 1 for both would be better. :)

[Eldentistfuturo]

Won't we all have to buy new computers to stream with the wireless "n". I don't see this doing very well if thats the case.

[MagicWok]

All in all, I'm fairly dissapointed myself in the 'iTV' - it just doesn't have enough selling points for me. It is NOT revolutionary as some have posted. DVD/HDD combo's are fairly common now, and very affordable (bordering on the inexpensive) and open to almost anyone. Most come with their own PVR software and many come with ethernet connections. I'll be honest and say wireless is a lot less common and is a great advantage, but if I purchased said combo, it ticks so many boxes that the 'iTV' doesn't appear to at the moment. People have set up what the iTV already does through many different means, be it xbox with linux or their own system. What Apple are, and always do, is see something that is already done, but put it all in one simple box. Which has the advantage of appealing to those who aren't quite so tech savvy, and therefore seem 'revolutionary'.

I almost question why call it iTV at all? Since the interaction with TV services seems so limited. However, what would be great, is the iTV recording a TV show, and then streaming it straight to your Mac harddrive! But with Apple's penchant for DRM, I can't really seeing it happen much from them. Who's to say the box can't be modded to do so, but if the iTV could record and save to a Mac wirelessly, and playback on your set, I would definately be swayed back into the buying camp! :p

Anyway, the iTV also reminded me of something I played with in one of those 'post your concept' threads here at mac rumours. Mine came with a DVD player, inbuilt HDD and new remote... lol ^_^

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5537/iview22xz.th.jpg (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iview22xz.jpg)

[needthephone]

I like the concept-if it was self contained or you could hook it up to a stand alone hard disk.

To me a computer is a pretty nasty tool, you need by necessity to say work on. access the internet with, read/send emails. Its prone to getting viruses and crashing (even our imac does just as frequently as our windows XP machine) and if you have windows updates or anti virus software then the computer is quite likely to restart itself at unexpected times. So you could be watching something on an iTV and then there is a security patch update for windows and in the crucial scene everything goes blank. No way.

This happened when I had a party and had hooked up itunes to my main stereo. Worked brilliantly until I had an update then everything stopped for about 15 minutes!

Self contained its a brilliant idea though

[MarkCollette]

Here's a distilled wishlist from everyone, that I think is reasonable and remotely possible:

- Hooks up to external USB 2 hard drive, so can directly access content without computer present (brought laptop to work).

- Hooks up directly to iPod via USB. So it could act just like the A/V Dock.

- Hooks up to external USB DVD drive, so can play movies from living room without having to go to computer room. Also, not every TV has a bazillion high end inputs, so not everyone can hookup a DVD player and an iTV to their TV.

- Have an open API so that it would be possible for Elgato to make a tuner that could tie into this. First thing would be for broadcasts to share the A/V hookups and use the iTV remote for changing channels, but second thing would be for saving video back to the computer hard drive. It's be cool if you could hookup a USB hub, and have the iTV record the Elgato captured to stuff to a connected hard drive or DVD burner.

[pavetheforest]

good list, i think it would suffice my wants/needs.

[Philsy]

For those of us in the UK, I wonder if this is a more attractive alternative to Apple's offering.

http://www.btvision.bt.com/

It bypasses the computer, includes a digibox and has a number of useful additional features.

[BigHat]

All in all, I'm fairly dissapointed myself in the 'iTV' - it just doesn't have enough selling points for me. It is NOT revolutionary as some have posted. DVD/HDD combo's are fairly common now, and very affordable (bordering on the inexpensive) and open to almost anyone. Most come with their own PVR software and many come with ethernet connections. I'll be honest and say wireless is a lot less common and is a great advantage, but if I purchased said combo, it ticks so many boxes that the 'iTV' doesn't appear to at the moment. People have set up what the iTV already does through many different means, be it xbox with linux or their own system. What Apple are, and always do, is see something that is already done, but put it all in one simple box. Which has the advantage of appealing to those who aren't quite so tech savvy, and therefore seem 'revolutionary'.

I almost question why call it iTV at all? Since the interaction with TV services seems so limited. However, what would be great, is the iTV recording a TV show, and then streaming it straight to your Mac harddrive! But with Apple's penchant for DRM, I can't really seeing it happen much from them. Who's to say the box can't be modded to do so, but if the iTV could record and save to a Mac wirelessly, and playback on your set, I would definately be swayed back into the buying camp! :p

Anyway, the iTV also reminded me of something I played with in one of those 'post your concept' threads here at mac rumours. Mine came with a DVD player, inbuilt HDD and new remote... lol ^_^

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5537/iview22xz.th.jpg (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iview22xz.jpg)

Do you see into the future or something? Another stupid post making declarative statements about the "iTv" flaws when the product specs aren't even remotely finalized.
The "glass half empty" crowd. So boring.

Okay you're disappointed. Now go away.

[Peace]

Come on folks.Think!!

This thing has a USB 2.0 port and an Ethernet port..

Now what would/could connect to those ports?

Hard Drives

Mini's

Satellite/Cable set-top boxes


With the advent of wireless almost everywhere do folks really think the ethernet is seriously going to be used to connect a computer 3 rooms away?


Think..
This unit has a LOT of potential that we will realize around the time Leopard comes out.

[balamw]

This thing has a USB 2.0 port and an Ethernet port..

I share your hopes, however:

My DirecTivo and Samsung HDTV both have USB ports, but on the TiVo DirecTV never activated the port. And on the TV it's not officially useful for anything and is labeled "service".

B

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

I share your hopes, however:

My DirecTivo and Samsung HDTV both have USB ports, but on the TiVo DirecTV never activated the port. And on the TV it's not officially useful for anything and is labeled "service".

B

You really think that Apple would include a non-activated USB port? :p

[janstett]

This really is an amazing and revolutionary product, I think. It's going to be like taking iTunes out of cyberspace and into the real world. I can't wait, I'm buying one!


It's really not revolutionary at all. Devices have been doing this sort of thing since 2001. Look into UPnP. I worked for a company that was doing this from 2002-2006. Even ElGato in the Mac world has been doing this for quite some time. But hey, it's new to you, so it's "amazing and revolutionary", right?


I wonder though, since Steve didn't address this, but since the "iTV" does not have a DVD player built in, if you don't buy movies from iTunes, can you just put the DVD in whatever computer is connected to the "iTV" and stream it that way?

Questions, questions...

I agree. That is an excellent question. I'd like to be able to do that as well. Reason being I only have 3 digital audio inputs, so having a DVD player and iTV would take up 2, and that sucks. :( 1 for both would be better. :)

It's a technologically cool thing to do, but I think the answer would be "no" because of legal reasons (my old company looked into this). The problem is that to stream from your DVD the transport stream or program stream, you would need to decrypt the stream from the disc, which is not legal. Only the DVD player is allowed to decrypt from the disc so you can't pass keys and let the iTV decrypt. Therefore the machine with the disc would have to decrypt the disc and send unencrypted streams over your network, which is essentially ripping the DVD. And I'm sure the MPAA won't be very happy about that.

That's why you haven't seen products doing this sort of thing, my company thought of it 4 years ago. I know of someone resurrecting the idea with a networked DVD jukebox who is negotiating the legality right now... The only thing that's changed is that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are here with ludicrous levels of encryption, so they might not care so much about DVD anymore.

The one loophole I know of is this -- Philips has a UPnP server called "Streamium" that exists on both PC and Mac. It can send the DVD if the source is unencrypted... "Legally" meaning a DVD you authored or one that has no encryption. The rest is left up to the imaginative reader who might have something like <cough> AnyDVD <cough>.

[MacsAttack]

Come on folks.Think!!

This thing has a USB 2.0 port and an Ethernet port..

Now what would/could connect to those ports?

Hard Drives

Mini's

Satellite/Cable set-top boxes


With the advent of wireless almost everywhere do folks really think the ethernet is seriously going to be used to connect a computer 3 rooms away?


Think..
This unit has a LOT of potential that we will realize around the time Leopard comes out.

USB port = plug your iPod into it and sync with iTunes without having to go to the computer. Also frineds can bring their iPod round - plug it in - and you can all watch the movies they have downloaded.

Perhaps allow USB keyboard and mouse to be plugged in and remotly access your Mac to surf the net and look at your e-mail.

[swano]

Looks damn nice. I want one!
Anyone from Canada in here remember a TV station out of Edmonton....

[Multimedia]

Elgato is OK. Until it is able to change channels on my digital cable box like my TiVo can, there is no a chance in hell of me ever buying one.My understanding of Elgato is this:

The whole idea of Elgato is for off air recording AND direct connect the cable to the EyeTV 500 or hybrid tuner. You don't need a Cable Box with Elgato. It does change channels like Tivo when you have it hooked up direct.

I only have experience with the off air recording capabilities of the EyeTV2 + 500 tuner system and I love it.

[Manic Mouse]

Does anyone else think that $300 (or £200+) is too much for what is a glorified WiFi module with a few ports on the back? You can buy a core 360 for the same price which includes real hardware. Surely $200 would be a much more realistic price?

[duklaprague]

Haven't read the entire thread, but it seems the usefulness of this is largely dependent on what your existing setup includes.

But this is exactly the product I'd go out and buy as soon as it comes out. Not worried about the whole TV / PVR thing, as our cable box has HD storage, and tivo like functionality (pause / FF / RW etc) (Telewest in the UK).

We basically have a wi-fi powerbook in the house - never got airtunes, as it still needed to be controlled from the powerbook, rather than the stereo.

But something like the Front Row UI on the tv screen, that can pull up our music library on the TV screen in the living room, and play it through the main stereo, and pull up photos / slideshows etc straight onto the tv screen, rather than laptop, from the sofa, will be brilliant.

[BenRoethig]

Does anyone else think that $300 (or £200+) is too much for what is a glorified WiFi module with a few ports on the back? You can buy a core 360 for the same price which includes real hardware. Surely $200 would be a much more realistic price?

I could imagine quite a few would agree.

[balamw]

You really think that Apple would include a non-activated USB port? :p
No, but just like the the Airport Express, it's uses might be far more limited than you might expect. I'd love to be able to plug in a HDD to my Aiport Express and use it as a NAS, but that's not supported. :p

B

[Multimedia]

Does anyone else think that $300 (or £200+) is too much for what is a glorified WiFi module with a few ports on the back? You can buy a core 360 for the same price which includes real hardware. Surely $200 would be a much more realistic price?While he was pitching it, I thought "it should cost $299" - then he said $299. So no I don't think $299 is too much. Seems just right to me.

[duklaprague]

There's a MUCH more systematic way that Apple could name this product.

"AirPort" is derrived from "Air" (being the medium through which the device works) and "Port" (gateway to aforementioned medium)

So this iTV box:

The medium through which the device works is Television and the device is a gateway to the Television so add "port" to the end. Thus...

I herby propose "TelePort."

hahah.

TelePort.

And you thought "AirPort" was bad.

LOL - we already have teleport (http://www.telewest.co.uk/teleport/) here in the UK!

[Eldentistfuturo]

no one ever answered my question.

Won't we all have to get new computers to use the itv? Since streaming will be done through wireless "n", all of apple's current computers wouldn't work. This sounds like a deal stopper to me.

[balamw]

Won't we all have to get new computers to use the itv? Since streaming will be done through wireless "n", all of apple's current computers wouldn't work. This sounds like a deal stopper to me.
I'm sure if "n" is necessary Apple will be happy to sell us a box that connects to the Ethernet or USB port of your existing Macs to connect them to an "n" network.

Personally, I intend to use the wired connection when I get my iTV.

B

[weldon]

no one ever answered my question.

Won't we all have to get new computers to use the itv? Since streaming will be done through wireless "n", all of apple's current computers wouldn't work. This sounds like a deal stopper to me.
It has an ethernet jack and "n" adapters will still be compatible with a/b/g most likely.

[APPLENEWBIE]

From IPOD OBSERVER ON 9/19/06
CEO Bob Iger revealed that he has seen Apple's upcoming iTV device in action and that it has a hard drive, a feature that many assumed would be missing. He said: "It can also stream it live through the box to the TV or it has a small hard drive on it so they can download what you put on the device on your computer, on your iTunes, through the television set."

Describing the device in response to an analyst's question, Mr. Iger noted: "It's a small box about the size of a novel, and not War and Peace, by the way. It plugs into the television like any other peripheral would, like a DVD device. It's wireless. It detects the presence of computers in your home; in a very simple way you designate the computer you want to feed it and it wirelessly feeds whatever you downloaded on iTunes which include videos, TV, music videos, movies or your entire iTunes music library to your television set."

In the transcript obtained by iPodObserver.com, Mr. Iger continued: "So it is relatively easy to use, simple kind of plug and play, relatively easy. Actually extremely easy remote control device, DVD quality, not HD quality at this point. I find it to be pretty compelling. I saw it in a living room setting. It felt like a game changer to me in many respects, and as a content provider we are, that was very exciting."

He concluded: "What I like about it, by the way, it may be an opportunity to actually charge people for a TVR experience. In that if they've forgotten to set their TiVo device or their TVR or they just have no plan to do it but they want to watch an episode that they missed, they can go to iTunes, buy it for $1.99, [send it] to the set-top box source wirelessly and watch it on the television."

http://www.ipodobserver.com/story/28489

[dmelgar]

Neat that it has a harddrive makes it a compelling standalone device, sorta amazing at $299.
But where goes Iger come off as the spokesman for Apple revealing product secrets? Is this an intentional leak or is Iger trying to have a bigger role in Apple. I've got to admit, I'm skeptical of Iger's motives since they broadcast "Path to 9/11".

[Philsy]

Just seen an ad here in the UK for Sky Plus. It seems now you can record programmes via your mobile phone if you're not at home.

Apple's offering is fast becoming less appealing...

[cloud 9]

I am really struck by just how many really geeky, elitist, techno-snobs there are posting here who are more interested in bending the world around them to their shape, than in doing what a smart business -- like Apple -- does: They actually look at the vast sea of real customers, and create new products that will sell in large numbers. Apple's customer is not 'you,' Mister (or Ms.) TechnoGeek. The customer here is Jane and Joe Everyman... the same people now buying the vast majority of iMacs, minis, and iPods. And, from that view, that's me: Joe Everyman.

I watch video of all qualities, including really screwy VHS tapes from 10-years ago with lines flickering through the image. I also watch some hi-def, with most stuff being generally broadcast or commercial DVD quality. I watch it all, as I am really into the stories portrayed in these movies and shows, and care much less about the gem-like perfection of the image. If you'll go out into the middle-class neighborhoods of the world and talk to real families, you'll find a prevalence of this same attitude. "Quality" is secondary to content to the mass market.

You, Mister TechnoGeek, may have a home stuffed with leading edge electronics... 102 inch plasmas... gigbit Ethernet everywhere... dedicated rackmount media servers... whatever. I am proud for you. But, Joe and Jane are out here with a 20-inch TV in the bedroom connected to a 5 yr old VCR and a 1 yr old DVD player, and they have a 27-inch CRT set, or 52-inch rear projection set in the living room connected to a cable box, a 2 yr old VCR, and a new DVD player (not "progressive scan," either... the mid-priced one from Target). We see flat panel sets when we shop, and hear a few friends brag about them... we are talking about buying one. We have a nice PC in the corner or in the bedroom... or, we're thinking about replacing the old PC, and are aware of the new Apple products. We're 'hip' enough to use some technology, but we don't live it and breathe it. We are avid iPod/iTunes users, and iTunes store shoppers.

That all said, I now see Apple showing a little box that I can plug into the 52-inch set in the living room wiht one cable. And, magically I can now watch any video that's on our PC on that TV set... AND can control it all with a little simple remote control that works with the PC back in the bedroom. My response is, "Wow, that's cool!" And, despite my somewhat backwards appearance to the technology cogniscenti of the world, I actually do spend cash on cool grdagets from time to time... like that $350 iPod I own. I have that $299 sitting here to spend on something simple and cool like this iTV box.

Joe and Jane don't know that ElGato exists, and would never dream of trying to figure out how to start hanging peripherals off their PC and getting multiple doodads working together. They're just not into that sort of tinkering. They have real lives. And, they just want to plug something in, and instantly have it work. And, they want to just push a button or two, sit down on their sofa, and watch their videos of choice. No hassle.

Welcome to the next era of transitioning Joe and Jane away from real-time content and into the world of content on demand. Apple really did just fire the magic bullet by showing us this one elegantly simple end to end solution possibility.

If you don't get it, you're probably not in Apple's vast target demograpic for the iTunes Store or the iTV. I am. I get it. And, I want two of these right now... for the living room and the bedroom.


i like your post :) and it is true.

my parents only have a dvd player recently because my brother got one from his work for them. they don't even know why there's an apple on my computer and what the difference is with a dell from the supermarket.'it looks expensive ' that's what they tell.

all those early adopters and geeks may excel in their wisdom with gadgettery, tho they have limited empathy to live in the role of joe everyman, and can't leave their own view on something to see what this is made for. i sometimes wonder why they aren't more frustrated and left apple to do some linux. but then again, apple is hip and has a 'standing', especially for early adopters.

i would love to buy one, it looks so easy.

[kristoffer4]

So a couple of questions.
Will the "iTV" only play video from your Itunes liberary? What about your other videos....:rolleyes:
Will you be able to use a device like WinTV-USB2 with it?

[JonasLondon]

So a couple of questions.
Will the "iTV" only play video from your Itunes liberary? What about your other videos....:rolleyes:
Will you be able to use a device like WinTV-USB2 with it?

It seems pretty obvious from the presentation that it will act much like FrontRow - which let's you access anything in your movies folder too - and then again, how much programming would it take to offer this extra? - 5 minutes by some XCode Geek and it's done. Relax & enjoy :-)
I'm buying one unseen. :-)

Oh, and "jeez, how much I just agree with what exactjack said above!!"

[timmillwood]

I hope to see the iTV and iTunes able to play more formats, such as AVI, DIVX, WMV etc

Then no matter what format you downloaded a video clip in you could watch it on iTV, i dont even mind if iTunes Converted it like it does with WMAs

It would be nice to do a deal with Google video and or You Tube to get those videos on iTV, iTunes and iPod

[Macnoviz]

I hope to see an european launch as soon as possible, mainly because the market is totally different than in America, to Apple's advantage. Let me say some things about TV in Belgium:

Digital televsion was launched this year, but a lot of families don't have that yet. Now you can choose for a normal analog line (one provider) or digital (two providers who offer premium services, too)

SD is standard, HD is non existent. This will change soon for digital television, but for now HD is very very rare, even though quite some people have HD capable tv's. Because no one has ever seen HD, they underestimate the difference between HD and SD (they are happy the way it is now)

When most people hear "Tivo", they think it's some kind exotic disease. Most people use VHS casettes to record stuff, a minority use DVD or hard drive DVD players. Most of the things recorded end up unwatched in a box or something.

Blu Ray and HD DVD is seen as science fiction

A lot of people use iTunes+iPod

The introduction of videos on iTS along with the introduction of the iTV could boost sales/ media coverage for both. We are still awaiting TV shows and Music Videos

My $ 0,02: If Apple releases the iTV+iTS video/movies in Europe within the next half year, they could become a serious competitor with other distribution channels, and rule the living room for the next decennium