Jesus Camp: Worshipping President Bush (ABC News)

[im_to_hyper]

This Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM) here will take you to a YouTube video which is from ABC News that frankly I found to be appalling. I don't think I've ever posted anything in the political forum before, so this is a major first for me. Politics are bad, but this is worse.

Kids who will lay their lives down for Jesus and for their country? Duct-taping their mouths shut with tape that says "LIFE" on it?! "These kids need to be able to give their lives for the gospel, just as they do in (The Middle East)" says the "advisor" in the documentary. The kids are praising a picture of Bush. What is he? Jesus' cousin?

This needs to be given bigger attention so that the US won't be breeding a set of intolerant religious extremists of its own.

[iJon]

I'll more than likely be going to see this movie later on this week. Watching the trailer makes my old Christian sports camp look like nothing. Should be a good movie.

jon

[Blue Velvet]

Scary and alarming stuff, which only confirms to us who aren't American the monster you have within... particularly the reporter's use of the phrase 'secular liberal feminist'. That kind of labelling in a news item wouldn't go down well over here... but we're all godless communists anyway.

Brainwashing children for political ends is done almost everywhere in the world, though... and make no mistake, this is political and has little to do with religion.

How far will this hysteria go? When will the backlash begin?

[beatsme]

Scary and alarming stuff, which only confirms to us who aren't American the monster you have within... particularly the reporter's use of the phrase 'secular liberal feminist'. That kind of labelling in a news item wouldn't go down well over here... but we're all godless communists anyway.

Brainwashing children for political ends is done almost everywhere in the world, though... and make no mistake, this is political and has little to do with religion.

How far will this hysteria go? When will the backlash begin?

I have one of these people in my family, one of the super-Jesus types. It's...um...unpleasant. Ever get a birthday card with scripture quoted in it? Creepy...

[LethalWolfe]

I dunno... I kinda like this re-invisioning of Christianity and Christ in a more modern and action-packed kinda way. I mean, screw that turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the Earth crap. Jesus would be so much cooler if he talked like De Niro from the "Untouchables."
"I want you to get this ******* where he breathes! I want you to find this nancy-boy heathen, I want him DEAD! I want his family DEAD! I want his house burned to the GROUND! I wanna go there in the middle of the night and I wanna PISS ON HIS ASHES!"



On one hand I want to see this doc, but on the other I know it's gonna piss me off so much I won't be able to sit thru it.


Lethal

[it5five]

On one hand I want to see this doc, but on the other I know it's gonna piss me off so much I won't be able to sit thru it.


Lethal

I'm exactly the same. Maybe when it comes out on DVD, I'll watch it in 30 minute intervals with a break inbetween.

[zap2]

Yuk..and a little girl said "funner way" in that clip..if you can't use proper grammar in your native lanuage i question that persons ablity to understand how the world work.

Glad I'm not around that,however it pains me because they are from my country.

[clevin]

this is what im talking about: the american education system encourages poor people to be ignorant! They know few history, few math, few science after high school, and being fooled again and again by republican faith-based voting manipulation system.

[takao]

hardly surprising stuff, seen similar stuff in other TV documentaries before

quite scary .. (that aside i already find drive in churches scary and ridiculous)


and that's coming from somebody whose father,2 grand fathers were altar server (actually my brother too),whose aunt was a nun and is now teaching religion, whose mother was in the official youth organization of the catholic church, and had a grand uncle who was priest

and then you hear the invited US american friends say something like " the europeans are shallow about religion" :eek:

[atszyman]

Did I hear the woman in the video right?

"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel. As they are in Pakistan, and Israel, and Palestine, and all those different places."

Are we training a wave a "Christian" suicide bombers?

These people scare me more than anyone. I can only hope that this indoctrination of children backfires in a big way when they become old enough to think a bit for themselves and rebel.

For the record, I doubt Jesus would approve of anyone using the phrase, "This means WAR!" when trying to spread his word.

[skunk]

What a bunch of wusses. Real fanatics would be whipping themselves with razor-wire.

[BakedBeans]

What a bunch of wusses. Real fanatics would be whipping themselves with razor-wire.

HAHAHA ,

Classic Skunk, total classic.

[EGT]

Stop the world. I want to get off.


:(

[Queso]

The only war this movement means is a new US Civil one :eek:

If only a third of it is true, it's truly frightening.

[pdham]

I am the youth leader for my church and have been to youth camps and service trips with my kids. The vast majority of youth movements are not like the one you just saw. (But the other ones wouldn't make good TV)

Myself and most other Christians I know would tell you that we don't want kids brainwashed into believing or thinking a certain way. I know that I stress with my kids the importance of actually analyzing issues today based on what you believe in rather than just accepting the stance you feel you are being told to.

I will be the first to admit that I don't like a lot of what the media shows in regards to the Christian community. But, as so many have said on this forum in the past, the media's portrayal of any event does not necessarily represent the reality. People like those you see on TV and then often get bashed in this forum have always existed and always will. The problem is that the administration has empowered them and given them a voice they didn't previously have. It does not mean there is a "scary" revelation coming.

[iJon]

I am the youth leader for my church and have been to youth camps and service trips with my kids. The vast majority of youth movements are not like the one you just saw. (But the other ones wouldn't make good TV)

Myself and most other Christians I know would tell you that we don't want kids brainwashed into believing or thinking a certain way. I know that I stress with my kids the importance of actually analyzing issues today based on what you believe in rather than just accepting the stance you feel you are being told to.

I will be the first to admit that I don't like a lot of what the media shows in regards to the Christian community. But, as so many have said on this forum in the past, the media's portrayal of any event does not necessarily represent the reality. People like those you see on TV and then often get bashed in this forum have always existed and always will. The problem is that the administration has empowered them and given them a voice they didn't previously have. It does not mean there is a "scary" revelation coming.
I'm gonna have to agree with you. I was very involved with church through my Jr. High years and even up into high school. The activities I partaked in were fun and nothing along these lines. If anything, church kept me out of trouble until I got to college. By then I was able to be mature enough not to get too carried away with anything that wouldn't be Christian like.

All in all though, these types of groups do exists and I do see them from time to time, hence my locaton. As long as these kids are growing up in this culture, only know what their parents tell them and hardly ever get out of their state to experience the world then these people will continue to exist.

jon

[im_to_hyper]

I'm gonna have to agree with you. I was very involved with church through my Jr. High years and even up into high school. The activities I partaked in were fun and nothing along these lines. If anything, church kept me out of trouble until I got to college. By then I was able to be mature enough not to get too carried away with anything that wouldn't be Christian like.

All in all though, these types of groups do exists and I do see them from time to time, hence my locaton. As long as these kids are growing up in this culture, only know what their parents tell them and hardly ever get out of their state to experience the world then these people will continue to exist.

jon

This was true for me as well, actually. I was part of my state synod's Youth Board and we planned Christian gathering events for both Middle School Children and High School kids. (Telemark and Godstock, respectfully)

There were fun workshops, including a "meditation maze" and activities designed for acceptance and love. There was no Jesus craziness, just some typical gospel songs.

The ELCA Lutheran church encourages accepting homosexuals... some churches even allow gay/lesbian pastors. There is no nation-wide policy on the issue since my church believes that it would cause a rift... and religion is about connectedness and acceptness, not arguing

Not to say there are no crazies, but its a low percentage, for sure.

The reason I posted the movie was that I was very alarmed that this existed somewhere and while it probably reflects only .01% of "Christians", .01% of "Muslims" are the same way. So that .01% can lead to a lot of trouble. (I put the word in quotes because they are not those religions, they use the religions as a basis for their crazy-babble)

[Palad1]

Yuk..and a little girl said "funner way" in that clip..if you can't use proper grammar in your native lanuage i question that persons ablity to understand how the world work.

it's like raaiiiiinnnnn on your wedding day... :rolleyes:

[Ugg]

The ELCA Lutheran church encourages accepting homosexuals... some churches even allow gay/lesbian pastors. There is no nation-wide policy on the issue since my church believes that it would cause a rift... and religion is about connectedness and acceptness, not arguing

Not to say there are no crazies, but its a low percentage, for sure.


Martin Luther would be rolling in his grave if he saw how Protestantism turned out. Lutheranism is pretty tame and inclusive but some of the others are worse than the Catholic Church he was rebelling against.

[KingYaba]

Reminds me of this polygamist crap that's going on with Warren Jeffs. "Oh, the kids don't know an ybetter, so we should continue to ban polygamy."

So shall we use that same argument here? ;)

[mactastic]

I'm certain we can extrapolate from here and realize that all Christians must be like this, just as all Muslims brainwash their kids in madrassas.

Oh and it's evidence that Christianity is a religion of hate, just as we've been told that Islam is a religion of hate based on the most vocal extremists in THAT religion.

Has to be, right?

[Ugg]

I'm certain we can extrapolate from here and realize that all Christians must be like this, just as all Muslims brainwash their kids in madrassas.

Oh and it's evidence that Christianity is a religion of hate, just as we've been told that Islam is a religion of hate based on the most vocal extremists in THAT religion.

Has to be, right?

Here (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,622365.story?track=mostviewed-homepage) is an editorial that claims the opposite.

A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be butchered for apostasy.

[mactastic]

Here (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,622365.story?track=mostviewed-homepage) is an editorial that claims the opposite.
Apparently my sarcasm went undetected...

[xsedrinam]

Apparently my sarcasm went undetected...
I've felt your pain.

[mkrishnan]

Maybe the apocalypse just needs to happen so that the rest of us can get down to enjoying our thousand years of peace under the reign of the Antichrist. :eek: ;) :D

[im_to_hyper]

Right...

Well we can conclude that this is not the majority of Christians, just as Middle Eastern terrorists are not representatives of their religions.

I pointed this movie out not to attack an entire religion, but point out the .01% that is crazy and that something needs to be done about. This group wants to promote violence and "declare war?"

Well, I guess when this movie comes out I will have to watch it and then we can all bash it even more.

[pdham]

Right...
This group wants to promote violence and "declare war?"



Where in that little clip did they say they want to promote violence or declare war? Calling themselves soldiers of christ and warriors of God is language that has been used for hundreds of year, probably thousands, do describe the Christian battle against Satan, and certainly does not at all imply actual physical violence or war.

I understand why people are concerned when they see something like that, but to say that people like that promote violence and war seems inflamitory and ridiculous.

[im_to_hyper]

Where in that little clip did they say they want to promote violence or declare war? Calling themselves soldiers of christ and warriors of God is language that has been used for hundreds of year, probably thousands, do describe the Christian battle against Satan, and certainly does not at all imply actual physical violence or war.

I understand why people are concerned when they see something like that, but to say that people like that promote violence and war seems inflamitory and ridiculous.

The advisor woman raised her fists into the air and shouted "this means war"... after talking about the kids literally laying down their lives.

So I'm not saying people like that promote violence, she herself did.

[iGary]

The activities I partaked in were fun and nothing along these lines.

The problem is this whacked kind of **** is becoming commonplace. And its scary.

[mactastic]

People here generally translate jihad to mean holy war and jihadi to mean holy warrior. Can you imagine how Soldier of Christ and Warrior of God must translate to them?

[dsnort]

As a Christian who admittedly has not seen this film but have read these post's I see some assumptions being made that are not accurate in my experience. I'd like to clarify if I can.

A Christian Soldier is an old idea, going back centuries. His weapons are faith, prayer, and the word of God. ( No AK-47's, RPG's, Hostages, beheadings, or plastic explosives).

Christian's are at war. It is a spiritual war, not against man, but against powers and principalities. This is the battle of the Christian Soldier above.

Lay down your life for God. The bible is full of examples of this, people who died for their beliefs. Who chose to serve God before preserving their own lives. Usually they are executed by the government or a mob with no physical resistance from themselves.

[mactastic]

As a Christian who admittedly has not seen this film but have read these post's I see some assumptions being made that are not accurate in my experience. I'd like to clarify if I can.

A Christian Soldier is an old idea, going back centuries. His weapons are faith, prayer, and the word of God. ( No AK-47's, RPG's, Hostages, beheadings, or plastic explosives).

Christian's are at war. It is a spiritual war, not against man, but against powers and principalities. This is the battle of the Christian Soldier above.

Lay down your life for God. The bible is full of examples of this, people who died for their beliefs. Who chose to serve God before preserving their own lives. Usually they are executed by the government or a mob with no physical resistance from themselves.
I've met many Muslims who tell me the same thing about jihad.

Funny that it sounds so innocuous to it's adherents, and so bloody violent to everyone else.

I mean, most Christians I've met use the term crusade to mean essentially a noble quest, or struggle. But can we imagine the outcry if there was a "Campus Jihad for Mohammed" group on school campuses?

[takao]

As a Christian who admittedly has not seen this film but have read these post's I see some assumptions being made that are not accurate in my experience. I'd like to clarify if I can.

A Christian Soldier is an old idea, going back centuries. His weapons are faith, prayer, and the word of God. ( No AK-47's, RPG's, Hostages, beheadings, or plastic explosives).

Christian's are at war. It is a spiritual war, not against man, but against powers and principalities. This is the battle of the Christian Soldier above.

Lay down your life for God. The bible is full of examples of this, people who died for their beliefs. Who chose to serve God before preserving their own lives. Usually they are executed by the government or a mob with no physical resistance from themselves.

well the german word "Gotteskrieger" ("god's worrier") got voted the "un-word of the year 2001" so i would be carefull using such a word

solider of god is simply to close to it...

[dsnort]

I mean, most Christians I've met use the term crusade to mean essentially a noble quest, or struggle. But can we imagine the outcry if there was a "Campus Jihad for Mohammed" group on school campuses?

I would probably disagree with you on that if it wasn't for idiots going around blowing up abortion clinics "in the name of God".


well the german word "Gotteskrieger" ("god's worrier") got voted the "un-word of the year 2001" so i would be carefull using such a word

solider of god is simply to close to it...

Not an issue with me, I'm not popular anyway.;)

[skunk]

"Gotteskrieger" ("god's worrier")What does God have to worry about? :confused:

[takao]

What does God have to worry about? :confused:

damn literal translating again

[skunk]

damn literal translating againTry "warrior". :)

[Mackilroy]

Okay… that isn't extreme, it's completely out there. By most standards the denomination I belong to could be called 'extreme,' but those people take the cake. All of the Christians I've ever met (which is by no means a huge percentage of them out there) wouldn't go fight in a war simply because they're a Christian – that's just crazy.

Oh, and for the OP's "…breeding a set of intolerant religious extremists…" here's a fun quote:

"Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions."
-- G.K. Chesterton

:)

[leekohler]

"Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions."
-- G.K. Chesterton

:)

A completely untrue quote at that, and spoken by someone who obviously thinks he knows it all.

Tolerance doesn't necessitate lack of convictions. It merely respects that others have convictions as well. It also means not killing or otherwise harming people with whom you disagree.

[skunk]

A completely untrue quote at that, and spoken by someone who obviously thinks he knows it all.

Tolerance doesn't necessitate lack of convictions. It merely respects that others have convictions as well. It also means not killing or otherwise harming people with whom you disagree.Chesterton was a xenophobic, anti-Semitic Little Englander. Tolerance was not his strong suit.

[XNine]

A completely untrue quote at that, and spoken by someone who obviously thinks he knows it all.

Tolerance doesn't necessitate lack of convictions. It merely respects that others have convictions as well. It also means not killing or otherwise harming people with whom you disagree.

Very powerful words Lee. And very true.

Has the world become a frightening place, or has it always been frightening? I'm not really sure, but what scares me is that people like what was shown in the OP are multiplying. I'm fine if they want to drink cyanide to go to the mother ship, but to start a war with other human beings... I think we've had enough of that in the past millenia to last us for a while...

[solvs]

Maybe the apocalypse just needs to happen so that the rest of us can get down to enjoying our thousand years of peace under the reign of the Antichrist. :eek: ;) :D
Ah but the Anti-Christ is a false prophet, posing as a strict follower of God, or possibly even pretending to be Jesus himself, while preaching of hate and violence. So in other words, he's like these people. Only worse. :eek: The peace they speak of isn't exactly the kind of peace you'd want. Think combination of Germany during Hitler's reign and Nero's Rome. The worst fascist, theocracy you could ever think of complete with flaming swords and whips.

I'm sure we'll all be killed before that ever happens though, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[KingYaba]

There was a recent 60 minutes episode with a man claiming to be Jesus or some BS like that. It was really funny. Could he be the real deal? :eek:

[Queso]

There was a recent 60 minutes episode with a man claiming to be Jesus or some BS like that. It was really funny. Could he be the real deal? :eek:
Nah, Jesus is coming back as a girl next time. Hence the Auntie Christ :)

[Sedulous]

I like the worshipping of false idols.

[solvs]

Could he be the real deal? :eek:
If he was, you wouldn't have to ask. We'd know. Besides, doesn't happen until 2012. :p The AC might already be here, but it isn't what you'd think.

The Bible isn't literal you know. ;)

[Thomas Veil]

Jesus would be so much cooler if he talked like De Niro from the "Untouchables."
"I want you to get this ******* where he breathes! I want you to find this nancy-boy heathen, I want him DEAD! I want his family DEAD! I want his house burned to the GROUND! I wanna go there in the middle of the night and I wanna PISS ON HIS ASHES!"LOL! Ass-kicking Jesus. I love it. :p

What does God have to worry about? :confused:His kids fighting all the time and growing up rotten.

For the record, I doubt Jesus would approve of anyone using the phrase, "This means WAR!" when trying to spread his word.Well, perhaps Bugs Bunny....

Has the world become a frightening place, or has it always been frightening?It wasn't always this bad. I'm 50, and when I was growing up the major worry was nukes that we knew no rational country would use.

Now we have to worry about religious crazies indoctrinating people and preparing for apocalyptic conflicts. (And some of them want to get their hands on nukes, too.) Thing is, the Rooskies could only destroy us from without. The religious "crusaders" will make sure we're destroyed from without and within.

[im_to_hyper]

OK, I guess this thread got off topic as most do after 40ish posts. :p Lock time?

[psychofreak]

I like the worshipping of false idols.

It is fun, but not as fun as Halo 3 will be...at least that storyline is more believable than God talking to Bush...

[joepunk]

Ever get a birthday card with scripture quoted in it? Creepy...
from my grandfather. but i don't think its creepy as some cards have a quote others just have a bless you type message.

but, the radical/fundimental stuff we do have here in the states is very scary and it's even more scarry/sad when adults start brainwashing children. :(

[pdham]

Funny this thread got new life today.... My wife and I are youth group leaders at our church (high school age) and we watched the documentary at our meeting this evening. We showed it because we have been talking about how as Christians we can be positive counter force to the Christian right.

It was disturbing to myself and my kids on many levels, but it is not as bad as the trailers make it seem. For example, they arent worshiping Bush but praying for him. But none the less there are still some very strange moments. It does need to be reiterated that this is the minority of Christian culture, but they are getting the attention because they have the attention of our government (unfrotunately)

[Don't panic]

Right...

Well we can conclude that this is not the majority of Christians, just as Middle Eastern terrorists are not representatives of their religions.

unfortunateky it is the flavor in charge of the country right now, voted in by the majority of christians, which are highly likely to vote for them again next year...

[Swarmlord]

There was a recent 60 minutes episode with a man claiming to be Jesus or some BS like that. It was really funny. Could he be the real deal? :eek:

I wouldn't put money on it. ;)

[iJon]

Funny this thread got new life today.... My wife and I are youth group leaders at our church (high school age) and we watched the documentary at our meeting this evening. We showed it because we have been talking about how as Christians we can be positive counter force to the Christian right.

It was disturbing to myself and my kids on many levels, but it is not as bad as the trailers make it seem. For example, they arent worshiping Bush but praying for him. But none the less there are still some very strange moments. It does need to be reiterated that this is the minority of Christian culture, but they are getting the attention because they have the attention of our government (unfrotunately)
I would agree with you that these people are in the minority of Christians. This is why these type of people do not bother me cause I feel they are far and scarce. As for the Bush scene, I would put it more in the worshiping category than the praying category. And to top it off they had them speaking in tongues.

jon

[TheDance511]

i am catholic..bush is a heartless bastard

[pdham]

As for the Bush scene, I would put it more in the worshiping category than the praying category. And to top it off they had them speaking in tongues.

jon

Whatever it was it definitly felt wrong.

[Tom B.]

http://www.bustedtees.com/bt/images/BT-jesus-gallery_artwork_thumb-914.jpg

EDIT: Oh, sorry, i didn't realise that this thread was a month old. :o

[Thomas Veil]

Oh, sorry, i didn't realise that this thread was a month old. :oYou're going to Hell for that! ;)

[LethalWolfe]

I just saw Jesus Camp a few days ago and while not exactly what I expected, it was still disturbing.

There were two things that stood out to me the most. The first was the fact that the preacher they focused on pretty much says point blank that she wants Christian kids in the US to be brainwashed to the same extent that Muslim extremists brainwash their kids in the Middle East. I mean, seriously, who sees a special on Dateline about kids being brainwashed like that and says, "Wow. That's brilliant. We really should be doing that to our youth."

The second point is the all the politics from the pulpit. Thinks like the cardboard cut out of Bush and the praying for a "good christian judge" to replace O'Connor just had my jaw on the floor. The Founding Fathers advocated separation of church and state and the Bible talks about the Kingdom of God being important, not the kingdom of man. So you'd think that Christians in America would recognize that those two things shouldn't be mixed. But I guess you shouldn't have high hopes for people praying over their A/V equipment so that Satan won't crash the computer during the Power Point presentation.

Unfortunately the Evangelical Christian leaders have tasted power aren't going to let go willingly.


Lethal

[QuarterSwede]

As a Christian, and an ultra conservative by todays culture, this even makes me sick. Folks, this is how cults are formed.

[Lord Blackadder]

To me the biggest problem with stuff like this is it causes people to make generalizations about "Christians in America" that offend the Americans who are members of a Christian religion but have nothing in common with the extreme fringe groups (that get lots of press).

I've always thought that the extreme fundies were no different in their worldview from the Islamist terror groups they constantly rail against...

[SMM]

The history of the Christian religion has been bathed in blood. First it was theirs, and then it was everyone else's. The notion that there was a period in history where the church was the pillar of piousness, and the moral beacon of society, is purely fictitious.

I do not think the intrinsic goodness in people, is derived from the dogma of their religion. Allowing for the variation of subjectivity of what is good, or evil, I believe most people are born good. They learn to be bad. Nothing will accomplish that faster than fanaticism.

This country has far too many fanatics, and most are associated with a religious cult. I use the term liberally. When the membership ceases to interact with normal society, cultism begins. I see people I once was close with, no longer involved with anything other than the church. They disassociate themselves from friendships, even marriages. They are being manipulated by extremists and profiteers.

We do not allow subliminal advertising. It is known to exploit a weakness in the human psyche. Well, the religious predators are doing a similar type of manipulation on these poor people. But, how do you stop it, while not trampling on a person's civil liberties? I suspect if it was being done for any reason except religion, it would not be tolerated. However, religion places it into the only category which is sacrosanct.

[LethalWolfe]

To me the biggest problem with stuff like this is it causes people to make generalizations about "Christians in America" that offend the Americans who are members of a Christian religion but have nothing in common with the extreme fringe groups (that get lots of press).

I've always thought that the extreme fundies were no different in their worldview from the Islamist terror groups they constantly rail against...
Agreed, and to be fair the movie, and the people in the movie, always refer to themselves as Evangelicals or Evangelical Christians because they don't want to be confused w/"normal" Christians that they basically see as hypocrites who are only Christian for an hour on Sunday.:rolleyes:


Lethal

[Lord Blackadder]

The history of the Christian religion has been bathed in blood. First it was theirs, and then it was everyone else's. The notion that there was a period in history where the church was the pillar of piousness, and the moral beacon of society, is purely fictitious.

A bunch of bad things have been done in the name of . Therefore [insert religion] is bad/evil/whatever.

That's such a tired argument - Christianity has always mirrored the society it was present in. Are you going to seriously suggest that the violence, hypocrisy and paranoia that have appeared in Christian contexts over the last several millenia are unique in human history? That because people are a religious individual they are violent and bigoted?

If you'd like to bring up history you should try to be more comprehensive for some better perspective. How long has it been since people truly began agitating for the adoption of the concept of [I]universal human rights? A blink of an eye in terms of recorded history. And today we are still nowhere near a universal acceptance of those notions. Traditional societies the world over continue to operate under moral and religious systems largely (or totally) uninfluenced by Western philisophical thought. Do you think your contemporary, Western, secular outlook on the world is the only "right" way to live, and the proper outlook to apply to the past? The hubris!

Religion is misused by people on a daily basis, don't get me wrong. The soil of the "Holy Land" is saturated with the blood of two hundred generations worth of strife that make a mockery of the region's name. But there are also literally billions of faithful (of many religions) across the world that have embraced their religion without becoming enslaved by it, twisting it to support their prejudice, or paying lip service to it while behaving hypocritically.

Religions serve as a way for people to find meaning in their lives, and represent a moral ideal that few are able to live up to, but many strive toawrds.

But by attacking religion you are essentially relieving people of their personal responsibility for their actions, instead choosing to blame them on their religion. Islam and Christianity don't teach people to become sucide bombers - but disturbed people with charisma channel their personal prejudices though the conduit of religion to others. Like any philosophy, it can be used in a detrimental way.

People commit unbelieveable acts of cruelty in the name of God, but rather than railing against God maybe you should consider looking at the people behind the acts. Normal people don't accidentally misread the bible and then blow themselves up in a crowded market...

I often get very frustrated with religious leaders for their conservative views, but there is a big leap between conservatism and the militant fanaticism in this "Jesus Camp". A cursory examination of Christian ideals should demonstrate just how twisted these people are, and how they are not displaying mainstream Christian ideals.

[SMM]

...responding to your post ...

I never have figured out this multi-quote, so I will resort to cut and paste.

You wrote: A bunch of bad things have been done in the name of [insert religion]. Therefore [insert religion] is bad/evil/whatever.

That's such a tired argument - Christianity has always mirrored the society it was present in. Are you going to seriously suggest that the violence, hypocrisy and paranoia that have appeared in Christian contexts over the last several millenia are unique in human history? That because people are a religious individual they are violent and bigoted?

Please do not consider me that shallow, or uneducated about history. My BA is in Poli Sci and my minor was history. I am well aware of many current, and past acts of barbarism, committed by most of the identifiable religious groups.

You wrote: "... but rather than railing against God maybe you should consider looking at the people behind the acts.

When did I rail against God? The only thing I spoke of people. I never brought God into this.

You wrote: Religions serve as a way for people to find meaning in their lives, and represent a moral ideal that few are able to live up to, but many strive toawrds

Yes, and some actually do. In fact, I suspect the vast world-wide majority do. But, the subject I was writing about were those groups/cults which have betrayed and enslaved their members, for their own profit and twisted agenda. Do you live in America? How much do you really know about the fundamentalists who are trying gain a stranglehold on national, and foreign policy? This is a serious problem. There are more and more extreme splinter groups popping up all of the time. If I were a foreign citizen, I would also be worried about this. You definitely do not want these people to have their hands on the trigger.

You Wrote: But by attacking religion you are essentially relieving people of their personal responsibility for their actions, instead choosing to blame them on their religion. Islam and Christianity don't teach people to become sucide bombers - but disturbed people with charisma channel their personal prejudices though the conduit of religion to others. Like any philosophy, it can be used in a detrimental way.

This is really a stretch from anything I wrote. To begin with, I do not even share this belief. I clearly said I believe that most people have dispensation to be good. I then said fanaticism is a major reason good people can be driven to evil. I do not subscribe to the view that religion and fanaticism are the same. Nor do I believe, either requires the other to exist.

Summary:

I do not care about another person's religion. I would never waste my time even wondering if any of them have it right. I was raised Catholic; Parochial school, alter boy, future Pope, etc. My beliefs are in a constant state of evaluation and evolution. I only have time for mine own, not other people's.

When this mutual respect is not reciprocated by those who think their religious beliefs supersede mine, I am disappointed. When they think they have the right to impose their values on how society should be structured and managed, I take exception to it. When they use their influence to begin extorting policy, I get nervous. When they begin to splinter off into extreme action groups, it is time to take action.

Most Americans share a belief that we are a great, benevolent, moral Country. They are shocked and mystified when other world people want to do us harm.