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Snowy_River
Apr 2, 2003, 02:47 AM
Just a note:

MacWhispers is reporting a rumor that the new 15" PowerBooks will sport the IBM 970 PPC processor:

Several odd bits of information have crossed our desk recently that point to an unexpected possibility: Apple will be introducing the IBM PPC 970 processors, not in PowerMacs, as expected, but in the new 15.4-inch Aluminum PowerBook.

I'd love it if it came to pass :D

http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers/archives/000055.php



Sun Baked
Apr 2, 2003, 03:06 AM
I think he's a little late for the PPC 970 in a PB April fools joke. :rolleyes:

[edit - Remove a remark]

cubist
Apr 2, 2003, 06:10 AM
Still, there is a bit of logic to it... The 15" update is late, the new processor is coming out, the motherboard needs to be redesigned anyway... But if that's the case, you might as well put your credit card back in the refrigerator, because we won't see 'em til after WWDC.

Sun Baked
Apr 2, 2003, 07:37 AM
Remember the delay on killing OS 9 booting until June, so it's doubtful Apple is going to wipe out OS 9 capable completely for awhile yet.

Basically OS 9 gets eradicated during the next speed bump, which would be an expected time for Apple to kill the old MDD PowerMac, replace the PB 15, and do something with the iBook and eMac.

Hopefully everyone machine will have FW800 after the speed bumps and upgrades at that time, and an outside chance of USB2 on the PowerMac -- Apple did take a step in the direction of making it possible in the new MDD PowerMacs.

---

And the new PB 15 should use the same logic board as the PB 17, should be a repackaged PB 17.

Unless everyone thinks the iMac 15 needs to be a completely redesigned machine to become a iMac 17.

MisterMe
Apr 2, 2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Remember the delay on killing OS 9 booting until June, so it's doubtful Apple is going to wipe out OS 9 capable completely for awhile yet.

Basically OS 9 gets eradicated during the next speed bump, which would be an expected time for Apple to kill the old MDD PowerMac, replace the PB 15, and do something with the iBook and eMac.

Hopefully everyone machine will have FW800 after the speed bumps and upgrades at that time, and an outside chance of USB2 on the PowerMac -- Apple did take a step in the direction of making it possible in the new MDD PowerMacs.

---

And the new PB 15 should use the same logic board as the PB 17, should be a repackaged PB 17.

Unless everyone thinks the iMac 15 needs to be a completely redesigned machine to become a iMac 17. Get your facts straight. MacOS 9 booting lives on because Apple kept older models in its product line, not because it introduced new machines that boot into MacOS 9.

Sun Baked
Apr 2, 2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by MisterMe
Get your facts straight. MacOS 9 booting lives on because Apple kept older models in its product line, not because it introduced new machines that boot into MacOS 9. :confused:

Where did I say the new machines boot OS 9?

Basically OS 9 gets eradicated during the next speed bump, which would be an expected time for Apple to kill the old MDD PowerMac, replace the PB 15, and do something with the iBook and eMac.

Sun Baked
Apr 2, 2003, 08:49 AM
This is an uterly silly rumor, which would make the PowerBook 17 the modern equivalent of the Mac IIvi (lasted 5 months).

Apple just switched the PowerBooks (still in process) from the PowerMac chipset over to the single chip DDR one used in the iMac.

Why would Apple do this to, only kill the all new design within a matter of months, they wouldn't.

[edit - Double Post... ;)]

CheekyGit
Apr 2, 2003, 08:59 AM
Terrific news if true. Hopefully they will offer a choice of the 1.4 or 1.8 Ghz 970 processor.

However, I will wait when they put one in the 17" PowerBook. Then I snag one up for my Photoshop laptop and keep my 667Mhz PB for my normal office work.

CheekyGit :D

CmdrLaForge
Apr 2, 2003, 09:23 AM
If Apple really introduces the G5 in the Powerbooks (they have to upgrade the other models soon) then we will see the G4 in the next iBook revision. Although it seems they are quit a while away.

Cheers

nagromme
Apr 2, 2003, 09:29 AM
970 in the 15"? Absolutely. And the 17" at the same time. But not YET!

For one thing, the PowerMac is the line that needs the change. I'd love it if portables got the 970 at the same time... but sooner is absurd.

For another, doesn't all evidence point to 970s not being available in quantity until fall?

There are lots of other explanations for the 15" delay... fixing things that cropped up in BOTH the new 15" and 17" but were first addressed in the 17" model, for instance.

I think it's time to question the usefulness of that particular source. Unless it simply means that work is being done on a 970 15" for LATER use.

OSeXy!
Apr 2, 2003, 09:52 AM
I wonder how much less power a 1.2GHz 970 would draw compared to a 1GHz G4?

dongmin
Apr 2, 2003, 09:53 AM
So if I get this right, they had a production run of 970-powered PowerBooks in January but ran into some problems so they had to hold everything and 're-engineer' the Powerbooks which has caused the delay. Now the PBs are back in production and will debut sometime in April.

I'm not terribly convinced by this production snag story. It doesn't seem right that they would be manufacturing the 970 PBs at the same time they were introducing the 12" and 17" PBs with 1 ghz G4s. The 17" is supposed to be the top-of-the-line at $3300. No way would Apple make it obsolete a month later by introducing a 970-powered PB.

I have to say though that it makes some sense to release the 970s first in the PBs. I'm sure they have much better yields with 1 ghz & 1.2 ghz 970s than they do with 1.8 ghz. Only 19 w power dissipation at 1.2 ghz, friggin ideal for a PowerBook.

noverflow
Apr 2, 2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
If Apple really introduces the G5 in the Powerbooks (they have to upgrade the other models soon) then we will see the G4 in the next iBook revision. Although it seems they are quit a while away.

Cheers

The g4 is already in the ibook!
all they did for the PB12 was take an ibook make it a metal case (for heat reasons) and slap a g4 and a slot loading drive in there.

The Ibook will probably go to a slower dumbed down 970 before it goes g4. the 970 produces less heat.

The ibook is at 800 the pb12 is at 867... what would they do if the ibook went g4... put a 800 or a 850 in it... it would kill the pb12 sales.

Why, because it would be the same thing, only cheeper, and less cost for apple care.

2COOL4SCHOOL
Apr 2, 2003, 10:06 AM
Love to see it, but...... I would be very supprised. If this is true, it might be a while before we see any new 15" PBs.

NavyIntel007
Apr 2, 2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by dongmin
So if I get this right, they had a production run of 970-powered PowerBooks in January but ran into some problems so they had to hold everything and 're-engineer' the Powerbooks which has caused the delay. Now the PBs are back in production and will debut sometime in April.

I'm not terribly convinced by this production snag story. It doesn't seem right that they would be manufacturing the 970 PBs at the same time they were introducing the 12" and 17" PBs with 1 ghz G4s. The 17" is supposed to be the top-of-the-line at $3300. No way would Apple make it obsolete a month later by introducing a 970-powered PB.

I have to say though that it makes some sense to release the 970s first in the PBs. I'm sure they have much better yields with 1 ghz & 1.2 ghz 970s than they do with 1.8 ghz. Only 19 w power dissipation at 1.2 ghz, friggin ideal for a PowerBook.

You misread the article. It said that apple originally was putting the G4 in the 15" but cancelled production and decided to put the 970 in them.

ColoJohnBoy
Apr 2, 2003, 10:14 AM
Where to begin? Let's see, I would NOT be surprised if the 15.4" AlBook was introduced with the 970 processor, but I can guarantee you they will only do it if they upgrade the 17" to the 970. My bet is that WWDC was delayed not just because of Panther, but because of PowerBook troubles. If the 15.4" does indeed premiere with the 970, it will be introduced at WWDC along with the upgraded 17" and a revised 12" (Thgough the 12" will most likely still carry the G4, put probably at 1 GHz)
If we don't hear anything at WWDC, you can bet we won't hear anything until November.

edesignuk
Apr 2, 2003, 10:17 AM
I just can't see it happening, the PowerMac line MUST get the newest, fastest chips before, or at least, at the same time as the PowerBook line.

DavidCL23
Apr 2, 2003, 10:37 AM
I could understand why they would release 970 powerbooks before powermacs. Laptops are the wave of the future!

pyrotoaster
Apr 2, 2003, 10:37 AM
Has anyone considered the effects a change like this would have on the iBook line? Here some thoughts I had at my blog, MacUnderground (http://macunderground.blogspot.com/):

Many people have voiced concern about Apple's strategy with the iBook. iBook updates are expected to surface in the next month or so, and many problems have come from the speculation. If the iBook uses a G4, or a faster G3 (the more likely of the two), there's a real possibility that 12" Powerbook sales could sink in favor of the cheaper iBook. If Apple is planning a 970 overhaul of the Powerbook line in June, they may also have plans for changes to the iBook around that time (maybe as much as a month before). Just maybe...

BTW, I see edesignuk's point about the Powermacs. I could Apple releasing Powerbooks and Powermac's with the 970 in them at the same time. One could argue that just releasing 970 towers first would hurt Powerbook sales with people waiting for the 970 to move there.

Postal
Apr 2, 2003, 10:57 AM
On the speculative note... check out this PDF for the GeForce FX Go series:

GeForce FX 5600 & 5200 Go PDF (http://nvidia.com/docs/lo/2835/SUPP/PO_GeForceFX_Go_07.pdf)

Not only do they mention the fact that it's compatible with OS X (and even 9, oddly enough), one of the promo shots below has a 15" PowerBook (albeit a titanium). Something tells me that these chips may be used in the next PowerBook update.

Just for kicks, here's a "dream" config for PPC 970-based, aluminum PowerBooks if they were released sometime this summer:

12" PowerBook

- 1 GHz PPC 970
- 256 MB of DDR333 memory
- 32 MB GeForce FX 5200 Go graphics
- 60 GB hard disk
- Combo or Superdrive options
- Bluetooth built-in
- Airport Extreme ready

15" PowerBook

- 1 GHz PPC 970
- 256 MB of DDR333 memory
- 64 MB Mobility Radeon 9600 graphics
- 60 or 80 GB hard disk options
- Combo or Superdrive options
- now includes Bluetooth
- Airport Extreme card included

17" PowerBook

- 1.2 GHz PPC 970
- 512 MB of DDR333 memory
- 128 MB GeForce FX 5600 Go graphics
- 80 GB hard disk
- Superdrive
- Bluetooth
- Airport Extreme card


Those would be great, of course... I won't even dare to speculate on prices though, even if the details I gave are (miraculously) spot-on. I do admit that predictions of an 80 GB hard disk and a 128 MB mobile graphics chip are optimistic, but they both have a basis in reality (as each is likely to be available by the time Apple would do such a thing).

Believe it or not, another piece of optimism I have is that Apple may well introduce the PPC 970 into the PowerBooks first, or right alongside the PowerMacs. Jobs called this the "year of the notebook" and may have been implying more than just the introduction of the 12" and 17" PowerBooks using G4s. Of course, he could have just been alluding to a major iBook revision, but who knows? :)

mcs37
Apr 2, 2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
This is an uterly silly rumor, which would make the PowerBook 17 the modern equivalent of the Mac IIvi (lasted 5 months).[edit - Double Post... ;)]

True, but Apple loves to the the first of the bunch, and I think the PPC 970 powerbook would be the first laptop with a modern 64-bit processor. Let's also remember it creates less heat and draws less power, which is vital for laptops getting 3 hours of battery life. Besides, if they announced the PB at the WWDC, it wouldn't ship until late September anyway, which has given Apple plenty of time to release its flagship 17" PB. Perhaps Panther will be totally ready for 64-bit.

One can hope!

Mike

Frobozz
Apr 2, 2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by edesignuk
I just can't see it happening, the PowerMac line MUST get the newest, fastest chips before, or at least, at the same time as the PowerBook line.

Dont Hurt Me
Apr 2, 2003, 12:34 PM
at 19 watts running 1.2ghz a 970 powerbook would be just what apple needs right now, and i would guess this would be the first mass produced 970. Then the 1.4 and 1.8 ? Anyways we all know the g5 or whatever they end up calling it is long overdue.

Abstract
Apr 2, 2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Has anyone considered the effects a change like this would have on the iBook line? Here some thoughts I had at my blog, MacUnderground (http://macunderground.blogspot.com/):

Many people have voiced concern about Apple's strategy with the iBook. iBook updates are expected to surface in the next month or so, and many problems have come from the speculation. If the iBook uses a G4, or a faster G3 (the more likely of the two), there's a real possibility that 12" Powerbook sales could sink in favor of the cheaper iBook. If Apple is planning a 970 overhaul of the Powerbook line in June, they may also have plans for changes to the iBook around that time (maybe as much as a month before). Just maybe...




YOu just quoted something I've been saying for some time. Damnit!! :p Yes, although an update to the 12" iBook is due quite soon, it probably won't happen because the 12" PB was just released. Apple will update all 3 PB models to the 970 at the same time, and at the same time, the iBooks will be upgraded to a 1Ghz G4. It doesn't make sense for it to happen any other way. You don't want to make the expensive 17" PB look like a really expensive paperweight in comparison to the 15", and yet you don't want to delay an update to the 15" PB since it desperately needs a facelift and hardware upgrade of some sort to appease Mac users. You also don't wnat to make the extra $800 cost of a 12" PB look like way too much money for a computer with a slower cpu than an iBook, so there won't be an iBook upgrade before a 12" PB upgrade. And I realize that the consumer model isn't always faster than the pro models, but if you look at the demographic of people who actually purchase a 12" iBook, a large number of them are students or younger people like myself who aren't computer illiterate. If they were to look at an iBook with a higher cpu speed than the 12"PB, nobody would dare touch the PB. I say the PM lineup will be upgraded to the 970 first, maybe some time in July, followed by an upgrade to the entire PB line in August. And it should all be ready to ship in September. :)

neutrino23
Apr 2, 2003, 12:49 PM
It is too fast to jump to a 970. Apple is in a way rather conservative. It would make a lot of sense to bring out the 15 inch Al book and figure out the manufacturing problems with that (mechanical strength, heat, Airport antenna, FCC issues, parts suppliers, ...) then switch up to the 970 when they have a solid platform to put it in. It would be a real drap to come out with the 970 PowerBook and then have to have a recall two months later because of some weird little problem unrelated to the processor. Recall the problems Apple has had with loose batteries, CD's scraping inside the drive, chipping paint, etc.

Not to mention that these chips are just barely coming into production. How can you launch a product without a known supply of parts?

My speculation is that we'll see the 970 in the PowerMacs later this summer and, if all goes well, the powerbooks will get the 970 around November.

HasanDaddy
Apr 2, 2003, 12:55 PM
I'm planning on getting a 17" and I'm wondering now if I should wait and see what happens at WWDC?

With that said --- how much better is a 970 compared to a 1 ghz G4??

THANKS!

vniow
Apr 2, 2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by HasanDaddy

With that said --- how much better is a 970 compared to a 1 ghz G4??


From what I can gather from reading some of the posts here, it's like going from a Celeron to a 3.06Ghz PIV with Hyperthreading, but that may be a slight exaggeration.

Snowy_River
Apr 2, 2003, 01:03 PM
I think that the one compelling argument for this being the case is that of production yields. If we are to believe what rumors there have been about how the production yields have been from the initial runs of the 970s, then there must already be a decent supply of lower clocked chips. Perhaps there isn't yet enough of a supply of the speedier chips to release the new PowerMacs, but with the early production runs producing usable lower clocked chips, I could see Apple deciding to aim for a PowerBook release for the 970.

Of course they're going to need to get the PowerMac line updated. Even if the 15" PowerBook is released next month with the 970, I'm sure that the new PowerMacs with the 970 would be released within a month or two. And, also, of course they have to immediately upgrade the 12" and 17" models.

As an interesting note, with the 12" PowerBook in existence, stepping the iBook up to the G4 will be a trivial step. (i.e. repackaging 12" PB as an iBook once the new 970 model is released...)

2COOL4SCHOOL
Apr 2, 2003, 01:26 PM
I think whatever PB is the top of the line will get the 970 first. Right now thats the 17".

There are still 15' Ti Books in supply, but we should see somthing pretty soon. Maybe a price drop.

Another site (Macosrumors, at the bottom of their page) thinks the new books are ready now.

idkew
Apr 2, 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
Just a note:

MacWhispers is reporting a rumor that the new 15" PowerBooks will sport the IBM 970 PPC processor:



I'd love it if it came to pass :D

http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers/archives/000055.php

while that would be amazing and unprecedented, i doubt it will happen.

i am definitly upgrading from my Ti667 to a Al17" PPC970 when it comes out. Apple will have my $3,000+ when that happens in a second.

i am thinking about 6 or so months after the 970 is in desktops that this will happen. maybe 1 more update to the current G4 powerbooks, then come the 970's.

idkew
Apr 2, 2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by HasanDaddy
I'm planning on getting a 17" and I'm wondering now if I should wait and see what happens at WWDC?

With that said --- how much better is a 970 compared to a 1 ghz G4??

THANKS!

it amtters what you are using right now, and if you neede a new cpu right now.

my laptop can wait a year and still do its job. can yours? do you need a new computer now?

just remember, whenever you buy a new computer, it will very quickly lose it's "top of the line."

a new computer now is worth more than a new one in 6 to 12 months. i would DEFINITLY wait, but that is me.

pyrotoaster
Apr 2, 2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by neutrino23
It is too fast to jump to a 970. Apple is in a way rather conservative. It would make a lot of sense to bring out the 15 inch Al book and figure out the manufacturing problems with that (mechanical strength, heat, Airport antenna, FCC issues, parts suppliers, ...) then switch up to the 970 when they have a solid platform to put it in. It would be a real drap to come out with the 970 PowerBook and then have to have a recall two months later because of some weird little problem unrelated to the processor. Recall the problems Apple has had with loose batteries, CD's scraping inside the drive, chipping paint, etc.

Not to mention that these chips are just barely coming into production. How can you launch a product without a known supply of parts?

My speculation is that we'll see the 970 in the PowerMacs later this summer and, if all goes well, the powerbooks will get the 970 around November.
No, no, no! (Sorry.) First off, Apple isn't conservative. Think of things like the Newton, eWorld, and the Cube. Not conservative ventures (in all fairness, Apple does keep a, as CNBC describes it, "massive cash hoard").

About AirPort technology testing, Apple has adopted 802.11g before it has even received official wireless status. And on Powerbook defects, think about those pesky exploding AC chargers back from the G3 PBs. And problems like paint chipping have been or are being resolved now.

IBM isn't at all clear about PowerPC 970 production. They could be producing large numbers of chips as we speak, and we honestly wouldn't know. Besides, Apple has faced supply issues before. It did take three months to start shipping the 17" PB.

Don't forget that Apple can announce something new before they actually release it (although that isn't really a good idea in this situation). I think we'll see Powermac 970s announced at the same time as Powerbook 970s. The faster towers will just take longer to ship. I just hope they update the iBook before then (not that I think they will, I'm just waiting for the next revision)!

-hh
Apr 2, 2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
This is an uterly silly rumor, which would make the PowerBook 17 the modern equivalent of the Mac IIvi (lasted 5 months).

Considering that MacRumor's buying guide says that Apple has been upgrading the Powerbook line every 146 days (4.8 months), it doesn't sound silly at all.



Why would Apple do this to, only kill the all new design within a matter of months, they wouldn't.

Because it won't be a complete obsolecence. Apple now knows better than to invent & destroy a complete product on a ~6 month cycle.

But their track record is to try to update all of their products every ~6 months. As such, the Powerbook 17" will be due for its first refresh at around this point in time. That refresh is more likely to be non-radical, such as a speedbump. It won't be a new display or new case, but a new drop-in motherboard could be a fairly low impact transformation.

Even so, a strategy that I think might make sense would be for the 970 to come out at this time, with both the PowerMac's and the 15" Powerbook using the .13 die set form factor.

They'll freshen the 12" and 17" with a cache and a speedbump, but they'll otherwise leave them alone for 3-4 months. This should extend them far enough out the timeline so that their transition to the 970 can be straight to the .09 die set.

That's the conceptual strategic roadmap that I suspect, as it pertains at least to Powerbooks & Powermac's. I have no idea how to incorporate the iBook and iMac pieces into this jigsaw puzzle. Maybe I'll get lucky and Steve will send me a private note :D


-hh

Sun Baked
Apr 2, 2003, 02:05 PM
Forget it, I give up.

If you believe this fantasy, you'll believe my signature. :p

mcs37
Apr 2, 2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by HasanDaddy
I'm planning on getting a 17" and I'm wondering now if I should wait and see what happens at WWDC?

With that said --- how much better is a 970 compared to a 1 ghz G4??

I am thinking about waiting as well. What I am trying to do is negotiate a sweet deal with Apple through my college, and get a 12.1" PB with airport extreme and 3 years of warranty. Probably up the RAM to 640, all for around $1800. Then I wait until the next year and my dad buys me a 17" alubook w/ PPC 970, Panther, airport extreme, USB 2.0, and an HDTV tuner built-in. Hell of a graduation gift! :)

But the deal is, I'd save $1,000 and I'd have a tiny laptop I could haul around next year until I get a new alubook for graduation. The size of the 12.1" is very tempting for the college student. I love the 17" but I don't think I want to haul it around to each class.

Honestly I think this is a good plan because I need to get some graduation gift, and I'm a CS major. :) We need big toys.


As for the 1 GHz G4 vs. a 1 GHz 970, they both process 1 billion instructions per second, but the 970 uses less power and produces less heat, and most importantly, it processes data in 64-bit chunks rather than 32-bit, which also means maximum amount of RAM is in the terabytes. Basically, with a 1 GHz 970 powerbook you'll be processing a LOT more data much faster and using less power. In short, perfection, for now.

Mike

Cabrewolf
Apr 2, 2003, 02:23 PM
I have a few overall thoughts on the implementation of the 970 that i would like to hear someone address.

I imagine the implementation of the 970 being similar to that of the PowerPC in that it will still be compatible with current software, but would be optimized with new software. I would think that when the 970 is introduced in any machine, it will hurt the sales of all other mac's. This is due to the feeling that a larger change is coming (64bit). Because of this it would be important for apple to introduce it in as many platforms as possible, as soon as possible. This would include the imac and ibook going to a scaled down 970 to maintain maximum effectiveness with the new 64 bit software.

As far as the 970 being introduced in the 15" first, seams to make a great deal of sense at this time. The 970 is not being produced in quantities to supply all the PowerBooks or PowerMacs, so introduce it in the 15" to achieve what apple loves to do (be the first) and then as production of the chip ramps up begin introducing them in other systems as well. The reason for the 15" and not a high end powermac would be that the 15 would see the most benefit form a faster chip requiring less power.

Curious to know what others think.

GPTurismo
Apr 2, 2003, 02:25 PM
It doesn't make sense. The PPC970 is new, and it will probably take at least a year for them to iron out the system in the new PowerMacs before it is mobile ready. Look at ho wlong it took the G4 to get mobile :p

e-coli
Apr 2, 2003, 02:52 PM
The reasons for possible putting the 970 in the 15" seem fairly simple. All the chips that Apple has shipped faster than 1 GHz have required the ENORMOUS heat sink. This tells me that they run extremely hot. since the Powerbook 15" alread had a 1 GHz processor in it, they are now moving into the "hot" chips.

Apple always cuts big corners with new products to pay for the R&D. The screen is the sell in the 17", so people will still purchase it, even if it has a G4, and the 15" has the 970.

I wouldn't be suprised to see a 970 in the 15".

Death2PCs
Apr 2, 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by idkew
while that would be amazing and unprecedented, i doubt it will happen.

i am definitly upgrading from my Ti667 to a Al17" PPC970 when it comes out. Apple will have my $3,000+ when that happens in a second.

i am thinking about 6 or so months after the 970 is in desktops that this will happen. maybe 1 more update to the current G4 powerbooks, then come the 970's.

totally agree.

nagromme
Apr 2, 2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Postal
17" PowerBook

- 1.2 GHz PPC 970
- 512 MB of DDR333 memory
- 128 MB GeForce FX 5600 Go graphics
- 80 GB hard disk
- Superdrive
- Bluetooth
- Airport Extreme card

Maybe that IS a dream for now... but it's also what I'm waiting on until I buy. A 970 and truly TOP GPU.

Unrelated note--the reason Apple would put the 970 in PowerMacs first is that PowerMac sales are the market Apple (and customers) are hurting in, and that's where the perceived need is greatest. 970 PowerBooks would only make the desktop lineup look even worse.

Now, 970s better follow in laptops pretty quick anyway, if this is the year of the laptop!

backspinner
Apr 2, 2003, 04:11 PM
I bet that IBM already has a lot of wafers with the 970 produced, only to find out that the yield is very good. Good on the slower parts at least.

Remember that they want to introduce them in THEIR servers at 1.8GHz after the summer. IBM is not the company to use cutting edge parts, you know parts that still feel hot from the oven they come from. What to do with all these testwafers? Well, sell them to Apple. Apple will happily use them in their computers. But they can not build PowerMacs with slower than 1.4GHz processors, but for the PowerBooks they are fine...

The selling point for the 17"PB is not the speeed, but the size.

Macpoops
Apr 2, 2003, 04:13 PM
If i remember correctly the 970 draws 10 or so watts at 1ghz so this could be a possibility for the Powerbooks. After all that is about half of what the current 1ghz G4 does. Call me crazy but wasn't the reason for the g4 taking so long to get to the powerbooks was the fact it sucked so much juice compared to the g3. Now we have a next generation chip that also is more efficent. Makes a logical case for a quick integration into the current designs. The 17" was probably designed with this as a forethought as well as the new 15.4" when ever it sees the light.

Frobozz
Apr 2, 2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
I think that the one compelling argument for this being the case is that of production yields. If we are to believe what rumors there have been about how the production yields have been from the initial runs of the 970s, then there must already be a decent supply of lower clocked chips. Perhaps there isn't yet enough of a supply of the speedier chips to release the new PowerMacs, but with the early production runs producing usable lower clocked chips, I could see Apple deciding to aim for a PowerBook release for the 970.

I don't know... if the portables are running faster than anything but a dual 1.42 desktop, that's going to essential stop all sales of the desktop line. Granted, it's low now, but it doesn't make sense to put the 970 in anything but the PowerMac line first.

Frobozz
Apr 2, 2003, 04:34 PM
I can't help but think that NO ONE figured the PowerBooks would be updated at MWSF. Only a couple weeks ago we started getting what they announced then-- at least the 17" PB. I does give me the feeling that perhaps the PB will be updated at the same time as the PowerMac... but it will NEVER be updated before. That's just insane, IMHO.

Apple has been pretty good at keeping the most radical of changes from the public's eye... with only brief whispers of what's to come.

I expect the WWDC to unveil the 970's in at least the PM's, and maybe the PB's... and I would think the top of the line PM would hit dual 2 GHz 970s.

MacFan25
Apr 2, 2003, 07:18 PM
If they put the 970 in the 15inchers, then I think that they would also put it in the 17incher. because if they just put it in the 15in, then then I don't think as many people would buy the 17in.

cb911
Apr 2, 2003, 08:40 PM
yes, the stagnant elephant that is Apple has to put the 970 in the PowerMacs before the PowerBooks get them.

oh well, one thing is for sure... my 667 TiBook is starting to get old & i've gotta sell it!!:eek: :eek: :p

dabirdwell
Apr 2, 2003, 10:46 PM
I think that a PowerBook debut of the 1-1.4 Ghz 970 would make PowerMac users look forward even more eagerly to the release of the really badass desktop systems. More hype, more development time for Apple.

Snowy_River
Apr 3, 2003, 01:27 AM
Okay, here's a thought, the 970 is debuted in the 15" PB, but, at the same time, the new 970 based PM systems are announced with the shipping dates for these systems put out by a four to six weeks (or something like that). This would give Apple time to get the lower yield, higher speed chips for the PM systems, while still allowing them to release the first 970s in the PBs.

And, I know that this is all pie in the sky right now. I don't necessarily believe that it'll happen. However, I also refuse to see it as an impossibility.

For those who were cited the G4 as an example of how chips always take time to go from the desktop version to the portable version, I'd like to respond by citing the G3. The first G3 desktop systems were introduced in November of 1997. The first G3 PowerBook (aka kanga) was introduced, yup, you guessed it, November of 1997. They rolled them out side-by-side.

Now we have a new chip that should be portable from the get-go, just like the G3 was, and I don't see any real reason why Apple wouldn't release them side by side, or even release the PB version a little ahead of the desktop version (of course, as I said earlier, giving full acknowledgement to the fact that the new PowerMacs were on their way).

HasanDaddy
Apr 3, 2003, 02:17 AM
After reading all of this, I'm heavily considering waiting now (which I hate doing)

if we were just talking about a regular speedbump, then I'd go ahead and splurge on the curretn 17"

but the fact that we're talkin' 32 bit versus 64 bit processing is a VERY big deal, right???

AhmedFaisal
Apr 3, 2003, 02:23 AM
Thats vapor unfortunately. The current PPC970 is too hot to be deployed in a mobile system. Although I would love the idea.
Cheers,

Ahmed

MacWhispers
Apr 3, 2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Thats vapor unfortunately. The current PPC970 is too hot to be deployed in a mobile system. Although I would love the idea.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Actually, Ahmed, a 970 at 1.2GHz dissipates 10 fewer watts than a G4 at 1.0GHz. The exact opposite of what you say is true.

The 970 is in many ways a much more appropriate PowerBook chip than is the G4.

And, understand, the PPC 970 has been sampling at well over 1GHz for over 6-months... plenty of time for a motherboard redesign on the PowerBook.

My source on this one's a very serious, very dry oriental engineering type, who's worked with me for over two months on a development project. The more I reflect on our conversation, the more I believe him.

AllenPSU
Apr 3, 2003, 05:47 AM
A 970 in a PowerBook would be great. I am waiting for either new iBook release or a slight drop in prices on the existing mid-grade PowerBooks. I've been wanting to buy a 12" laptop but wanted something in the sub $1900 range and didn't want to get a computer that was out of date before I used it. I almost did that with the PB170 but got luck and managed to get a PB180... would like to see the iBooks to get a sub $1900 G4 or 1G G3 with a superdrive. Maybe I'm dreaming.

GrizzlyHippo
Apr 3, 2003, 08:27 AM
My take on a prospective launch IF this rumour were true is the following:

The PB 970 and PM 970's will be annonuced on the same day with the 15"PB running at 1Ghz-ish available immediately as well as a 1.4Ghz PowerMac (the low end) also being available immediately. They will then say that the middle and top end 970 PM's will be available in 4-6 weeks or so. I should think there will be enough 1Ghz and 1.4Ghz chips available for this with the faster chips coming later.

That way they please the desktop and portable market and don't piss anyone off.

This launch idea would also tie in with earlier rumours that 2 different motherboards were going into production a few weeks ago. Therefore, the new PM case and motherboard are ready and when yields of higher speed 970's are sufficient, the middle and top PM's will ship.

I am avoiding the subject of the 12" and 17" PB's as I'm stumped to think how they will handle them.

Just my thoughts. I want a new 15.X" PB no matter what, but a 970 inside would be a bonus!

Grizzly

Frobozz
Apr 3, 2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Thats vapor unfortunately. The current PPC970 is too hot to be deployed in a mobile system. Although I would love the idea.
Cheers,

Ahmed

No, it's not. ;-)

mcs37
Apr 3, 2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by GPTurismo
It doesn't make sense. The PPC970 is new, and it will probably take at least a year for them to iron out the system in the new PowerMacs before it is mobile ready. Look at ho wlong it took the G4 to get mobile :p

The G4 is so old though. I will probably go ahead and buy the 12.1" Powerbook to hold me off for a year (and to have a nice _real_ portable computer), but that chipset is several years old now and the 970 is the future for Apple. Why wait to bring in the future when Apple could set the bar so high for laptops that no one else (literally) could compete?

Imagine a 17" alubook with PPC970 released 6 months from now. It would blow away competition. Hell there wouldn't be any competition since Apple already has so many other great things going for it in the 17". It would be revolutionary. If Apple waits too long to put the PPC 970 into powerbooks, someone else will be putting an IA-64 chipset into a wintel box and Apple will lose its competitive advantage (at least in terms of 64-bit introduction). It makes sense for Apple to release the PPC 970 in powerbooks sometime this year.

Mike

mcs37
Apr 3, 2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Death2PCs
totally agree.

I agree too. They will have my $3,000+ in a heartbeat for a 17" alubook PPC 970.

mcs37
Apr 3, 2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by backspinner
I bet that IBM already has a lot of wafers with the 970 produced, only to find out that the yield is very good. Good on the slower parts at least.

Anyone know where IBM is producing the PPC 970? I work for IBM and would like to ask around on the inside. :)

Snowy_River
Apr 3, 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by GPTurismo
It doesn't make sense. The PPC970 is new, and it will probably take at least a year for them to iron out the system in the new PowerMacs before it is mobile ready. Look at ho wlong it took the G4 to get mobile :p

As a bit of comparison:

603e
PowerMac Release: August 1995
PowerBook Release: August 1995

(Note: 601, 603, and 604 were never released in PowerBooks)

G3
PowerMac Release: November 1997
PowerBook Release: November 1997

G4
PowerMac Release: September 1999
PowerBook Release: January 2001

Although the current track record with the G4 seems to indicate a delay between release in PowerMac and PowerBook forms, looking back further it seems clear that whenever Apple has had a chip that could be released as a portable at the same time as the desktop release, they have. Indeed, the G3 was released as a 250MHz PowerBook vs. a 233 or 266MHz PowerMac. Who knows, we may start to really see the PowerBooks rival the PowerMacs in speed and power again...

dongmin
Apr 3, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by MacWhispers
Actually, Ahmed, a 970 at 1.2GHz dissipates 10 fewer watts than a G4 at 1.0GHz. The exact opposite of what you say is true.


Do you have links for this info?

I was curious myself so I did some digging around, and according to this article (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.motorola.php[/url), the G4 7455 dissipates 20 w (typical) at 1.0 ghz. The 970 comes in at 19 w (typical) at 1.2 ghz, according to IBM (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf). As far as I know the current PB uses the 7455, but maybe not.

So the 970 definitely consumes less power than the 7455 at the same frequency, but it's not as dramatic as you say. What is or, will be, dramatic is the boost in performace.

I'm curious about the power dissipation of the 970 at 1.0 ghz. If it drops to something like 15 W, maybe a dual config would even be possible. Can you imagine it, a dual 1.0 ghz 970 Powerbook with one of those variable timing technologies (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/10/20021021000007.shtml) that have been rumored?

Powerpage reports of 15" Al books being released soon. But no mention anywhere of the 970 making the cut.

dongmin
Apr 3, 2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by NavyIntel007
You misread the article. It said that apple originally was putting the G4 in the 15" but cancelled production and decided to put the 970 in them.

No, I read the article just fine. The article is ambiguous, probably intentionally. It's not clear what processor was going into the original run. The idea that Apple could somehow 're-engineer' the PowerBook, put in a new motherboard and cpu, and have it tested and polished enough to go into production in two months is utterly preposterous. New motherboard + new cpu in 2 months--that's gotta be a record or something. I don't think introducing a brand spanking new line of CPUs is anything like tinkering with the cooling system, which is more likely what they did during the two month delay.

Information we received in January from two key Apple suppliers convinced us that the 15.4-inch PowerBook had gone into production at that time, but had then been held up due to similar manufacturing problems as beset the first run of 17-inch units. Since that time, we have been told that only "a very few" pre-production units of the 15-incher were actually produced, prior to the production being stopped entirely. We have heard that as few as "a few hundred" of these units were actually produced.

Next, in February, a new source told us that his company had been awarded the production contract for the new mid-size PowerBook, and that actual production would begin in "late March." This same source has more recently told us that the new 'Book had been "substantially re-engineered between January and March," and "will be based on the IBM 970 processor." --MacWhispers

Rincewind42
Apr 3, 2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
Do you have links for this info?

I was curious myself so I did some digging around, and according to this article (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.motorola.php[/url), the G4 7455 dissipates 20 w (typical) at 1.0 ghz. The 970 comes in at 19 w (typical) at 1.2 ghz, according to IBM (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf). As far as I know the current PB uses the 7455, but maybe not.

So the 970 definitely consumes less power than the 7455 at the same frequency, but it's not as dramatic as you say. What is or, will be, dramatic is the boost in performace.

I'm curious about the power dissipation of the 970 at 1.0 ghz. If it drops to something like 15 W, maybe a dual config would even be possible.

Can't find a link, but the typical quote has been 30W@1Ghz for the 7455, but it's not that big a deal.

If you want to estimate wattage on a CPU, it's this simple: C x V^2 x M, where C is a constant that depends on the CPU, V is the core voltage, and M is the CPU speed. Since core voltage would be the same, we can just divide 19W/1.2=15.8W, so your pretty close :). But there are other technical issues on developing a dual config powerbook, notably space on the motherboard for components. But assuming Apple has surmouted the technical issues, it probably wouldn't be too far fetched to see a dual 1Ghz 970 PowerBook - I know I'd be lusting for one until I could get my grubby little paws on one!

Death2PCs
Apr 3, 2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Forget it, I give up.

If you believe this fantasy, you'll believe my signature. :p

i agree.

Snowy_River
Apr 3, 2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
No, I read the article just fine. The article is ambiguous, probably intentionally. It's not clear what processor was going into the original run. The idea that Apple could somehow 're-engineer' the PowerBook, put in a new motherboard and cpu, and have it tested and polished enough to go into production in two months is utterly preposterous. New motherboard + new cpu in 2 months--that's gotta be a record or something. I don't think introducing a brand spanking new line of CPUs is anything like tinkering with the cooling system, which is more likely what they did during the two month delay.

There is another possibility, though. They could have already done most of the engineering on the new 970 based PB, expecting to get it into production later this year. But then, when yields from IBM came in better than expected, they suddenly had enough supply to go ahead with the 970 based PB earlier than expected. (And, just so people don't shout 'NO 970 PB BEFORE A 970 PM!', they'd probably release or announce the new 970 based PM at the same time. The article never said anything about the new PB being the only computer based on the 970...)

ramiman
Apr 7, 2003, 01:09 PM
You guys are dreaming on for a PPC 970 in powerbooks until the beginning of 2004 at least.
I mean, the powerbooks 15 " are not alubooks yet and this upgrade has to be made before presenting the PPC 970 in the powerbooks. get real, of course i would really appreciate a PPC 970 1,2 Ghz (and even more a dual) but this isnt possible yet.

mcs37
Apr 7, 2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by ramiman
You guys are dreaming on for a PPC 970 in powerbooks until the beginning of 2004 at least.
I mean, the powerbooks 15 " are not alubooks yet and this upgrade has to be made before presenting the PPC 970 in the powerbooks. get real, of course i would really appreciate a PPC 970 1,2 Ghz (and even more a dual) but this isnt possible yet.

Ha, but wouldn't it be great if Apple did it anyway? Apple has a good history of doing stuff that's really cool that no one else really has done yet. I like companies that prefer to think they can do what's impossible.

Macpoops
Apr 7, 2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by ramiman
You guys are dreaming on for a PPC 970 in powerbooks until the beginning of 2004 at least.
I mean, the powerbooks 15 " are not alubooks yet and this upgrade has to be made before presenting the PPC 970 in the powerbooks. get real, of course i would really appreciate a PPC 970 1,2 Ghz (and even more a dual) but this isnt possible yet.

Where is it written that the new 15's have to be released in Alu and have a G4 in them. Couldn't apple just surprise the hell out of everyone and introdue the new 15inch Alu with a 970. The reason the G4 was introduced in the PB much later then the PB is it was a power hog. The thing still is in camparison to the g3 and the 970. The G4 is not the best fit for a mobile platform but there was a demand and apple answered it. The 970 is perfect for a mobile platform.

This is not the x86 world where the new Pentium comes out and then has to be modified to become a true mobile processor. Thats the benefit of a RISC architechture. The desktop model is the same as the mobile chip because the chip is already efficent enough and know modifications need to me made ala P4 and P4m. Yes i do know about the new centrino processor and i understand it is an improvement over the p4m. I am willing to bet it is a RISC based chip that emulates CISC technology.

allpar
Apr 8, 2003, 10:15 AM
It's a revised P3...

p03
Apr 9, 2003, 02:49 PM
I have very reliable information from sources with extremely respectable track records that suggests the following.

The 970, nay, the 980 will debut in the iBook. At 5 GHz.

Great news, huh?

But that's not all. You ask when... I can tell you: in five minutes. Please all hold your breath, and keep clicking at Apple.com. The announcement is imminent.

And that's still not all. The iBook containing that chip will be free. Yep, and immediately after the announcement, a delivery man will knock on your door, and hand you one.

(Pause...)

WHY THE HELL WOULD A NEXT-GENERATION CHIP DEBUT IN A MID-RANGE PORTABLE?!?!?! WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE BUNCH OF MORONS IT TAKES TO BELIEVE ANY OF THIS!!!

GeneR
Apr 23, 2003, 06:02 PM
I wish... :D


But now I'm beginning to doubt it.

ramiman
Apr 27, 2003, 12:40 PM
I may be mistaken but powerbooks will not be introducing the brand new cpu PPC 970, because the 17 inch powerbook would be too ridiculised and second of all, WELCOME TO APPLE = a bit of rip off which means that apple will try to keep its G4 the longest as possible to be able to get rid of them and then finally in the beginning of 2004 u will see what uve always dreamt of, a nice PPC 970 in a wonderful powerbook 15 inch and maybe 17 inch. Iwould really be pleased to see PPC 970 in july in the apple store but it seems so impossible to me.....
I would really surprised and all our dreams would come true like in nice fairytails where everything finishes well : apple will marry IBM and will live peacefully ever after with plenty of kids blablablablabla......


:) :cool: :rolleyes: