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adroit
Sep 18, 2006, 02:04 PM
Well, I was pacing back and forth wondering if the MR crowd would draw and quarter me for starting yet another "religion vs. evolution" thread and decided that this needed to be discussed.

Linky (http://wired.com/news/culture/0,71795-0.html?tw=wn_index_2)


Religious critics of evolution have trained their sights on one of the world's pre-eminent fossil exhibits -- Louis and Richard Leakey's extensive skeletal collections illuminating the origins of man.

Evangelical Christians in Kenya are demanding that the exhibit at Nairobi's National Museum edit out references to human evolution in order to prevent young African Christians from being taught falsehoods.

"We are objecting to the message that the fossil exhibits represent the scientific evidence of human evolution," said Bishop Boniface Adoyo, chairman of the Evangelical Alliance of Kenya, which claims to represents churches of 35 denominations with 9 million members. "They do not. Human evolution is still a theory and this cannot be called as evidence.”

The Evangelical Alliance's attack targets a giant in the world of evolutionary and primate studies. The Nairobi museum's fossils include the famous Turkana Boy, an almost complete skeleton of a juvenile who lived about 1.6 million years ago that was unearthed by Richard Leakey's team of paleontologists in 1984. It also includes bones of early hominids that are believed to have made and used stone tools.

"The fossil collection in Kenya provides an important set of pieces to the picture of human evolution," says Sean Carroll, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. "Extinct hominids give us a picture of how human forms have changed, when, at what pace, and what changes were independent and which may be linked."

The museum is currently closed for renovations, and museum officials said they have not yet received any official complaints by local evangelical churches. But they plan to prominently house the collection as "scientific evidence" of evolution when it re-opens in 2007, a representative said.

It's not the exhibit itself the alliance opposes, Adoyo told Wired News, but rather its interpretation. A satisfactory solution, he said, would be to remove the words that would classify the fossils as "scientific evidence," displaying them instead as a history of other creatures, without connecting them to human beings.

"When you use evolution as God's tool in creating man in his image, you have to reckon with the fact at what stage in the evolution process does man attain to that image?" he said. "The conclusion is either God's image is evolving or God Himself is evolving or every creature has God's image. God could be anything and I'm afraid I cannot put my faith in a 'changing God' or an 'anything God'.”

The alliance's protest is the latest wrinkle in escalating religious-inspired attacks on evolution, considered among secular experts as one of the best confirmed theories of contemporary biological science. The issue has erupted most visibly in the United States, where evangelicals opposed to teaching evolution in public schools wield substantial political power, and have sought to push an alternative theory known as intelligent design into the classroom.

More recently, the debate has expanded to embrace not only evangelicals, but also the Catholic Church, which has become much more visibly active on the issue.

Last week, the Pope slammed evolution, calling it unreasonable. The very next day, a retiring Vatican astronomer was moved to deny rumors that he was sacked over his views on the subject. Earlier this month, meanwhile, the Vatican convened a private seminar to discuss the church's stance on evolution. It plans to publish the results later this year in a move that's sure to add fuel to debate.

The strength of evolution's place in the scientific establishment is reflected in the political strategies of its opponents. Rather than confront evolution directly, evangelicals in the United States have instead begun to advocate accommodation of competing theories in classroom studies. If evolution is taught in schools, they argue, it should be taught alongside intelligent design, which postulates complex organisms could not be created by blind interactions, but only through purposefully imposed order.

Adoyo and the Kenyan evangelicals are also in this camp.

Efforts in the United States to introduce intelligent design in public schools have attracted key support, including a public statement last year from President Bush endorsing the concept. Last year, the Kansas State Board of Education drafted a new science standard that required a critical analysis of evolutionary theory while also providing a definition of science that did not rule out supernatural explanations.

Intelligent design efforts have also stumbled, most notably in a Pennsylvania state court case seeking to force ID onto a school’s curriculum. The suit, brought by parents against a local school board, was shot down by the judge late last year. Intelligent design organizers said they do not plan to appeal the decision.


My bold



KingYaba
Sep 18, 2006, 02:47 PM
Evangelical Christians in Kenya are demanding that the exhibit at Nairobi's National Museum edit out references to human evolution in order to prevent young African Christians from being taught falsehoods.
lol... falsehoods is a point of view. Christians can't definitively prove their creation theory. So how exactly does that make evolution false?

aquajet
Sep 18, 2006, 03:23 PM
So how exactly does that make evolution false?

Faulty logic makes it false. :)

adroit
Sep 18, 2006, 03:31 PM
Faulty logic makes it false. :)

huh?

baleensavage
Sep 18, 2006, 03:33 PM
I've never seen what the big deal with evolution and christianity is. If you read Genesis, it follows evolution step by step (when taken figuratively). I had a minister once who summed it up by saying "I don't care how he made people, I just care that he made them." That always struck a chord with me. So what if God made people by slowly changing an ape over a long period? Evolution and christianity can very easily coexist.

aquajet
Sep 18, 2006, 03:40 PM
huh?

Evolution is a theory. Therefore, it is falsehood.

See how that works? I was being sarcastic. :)

Desertrat
Sep 18, 2006, 05:22 PM
The "Darwin Awards" prove that evolution works. Too slowly, however.

:D, 'Rat

elfin buddy
Sep 18, 2006, 06:11 PM
From all I've read on the subject, it seems to me that these detractors of evolution only have a problem with the "human connection" of evolution. As if they are arrogant enough to presume human exemption from all laws of nature. :rolleyes:

clevin
Sep 18, 2006, 06:27 PM
I've never seen what the big deal with evolution and christianity is. If you read Genesis, it follows evolution step by step (when taken figuratively). I had a minister once who summed it up by saying "I don't care how he made people, I just care that he made them." That always struck a chord with me. So what if God made people by slowly changing an ape over a long period? Evolution and christianity can very easily coexist.
wow, pope said so too, just ask those far right zealots to see if they accept your idea.

aquajet
Sep 18, 2006, 06:58 PM
I had a minister once who summed it up by saying "I don't care how he made people, I just care that he made them."

A pitifully close-minded view.

Desertrat
Sep 18, 2006, 10:14 PM
Aw, I dunno, aquajet. Could be that he was taking the long view of the rate of change of this old ball of dirt. Maybe he took it for granted that God made the earth, geology and all. Geologic time scale and all that.

I've always been unbothered by the notion that God made the Earth in seven days. Hokay; who knows how long is a "day" to a god? Might be a few billion human years, for all I know. Does it matter? :)

'Rat

zap2
Sep 19, 2006, 06:53 AM
I've always been unbothered by the notion that God made the Earth in seven days. Hokay; who knows how long is a "day" to a god? Might be a few billion human years, for all I know. Does it matter? :)

'Rat


I've always heard that and found it pityful what people would be to believe in something:rolleyes:

Queso
Sep 19, 2006, 07:07 AM
Nice plan. Destroy the links between the scientific evidence for evolution and the theory itself, then tell the world that the theory must be bunk.

As for Betty Benedict, don't get me started :rolleyes:

dornoforpyros
Sep 19, 2006, 08:44 AM
A pitifully close-minded view.


Actually I find that to be a rather level headed view of how the religion and science can co exist. I mean it doesn't rely on one canceling out the other. How is that close-minded?

Desertrat
Sep 19, 2006, 10:27 AM
zap2, I'm not sure what you mean. All I'm saying is that there's no way for me to absolutely know what "He" did and when; I don't worry about it for just that reason.

I've spent too many years meddling around in the Great Big Outdoors to not figure that there's some sort of Big Hodad In The Sky who created a nice playground for me. I also figure that creatures evolve over the years. Some folks may see that as contradictory, maybe, but I don't get ulcers over what other people think.

"Don't take life seriously; it won't last forever." I'm 72; I'll find out soon enough...

:D, 'Rat

aquajet
Sep 19, 2006, 11:18 AM
Actually I find that to be a rather level headed view of how the religion and science can co exist. I mean it doesn't rely on one canceling out the other. How is that close-minded?

Well of course it is because one side is disinterested in the questions that the other seeks to answer and as such, there's nothing to debate.

Close-minded, as in disinterested and unreceptive to one of the most important questions humans have ever raised. Although, there is a bit of ambiguity in the original statement, so maybe I'm being a bit harsh. :)

Macaddicttt
Sep 19, 2006, 06:16 PM
wow, pope said so too, just ask those far right zealots to see if they accept your idea.

This article is way wrong about what the pope said. He did not "slam" evolution. The author of the article is being completely irresponsible and is spreading falsehoods with overly powerful words. The pope does not deny evolution. What he "slammed" was the idea that God had no say in the creation of the world and that it all happened by choice.

I can't believe how wrong the article of this author got the Catholic Church's stance. It's just going to lead to more misunderstanding and conflict.

dornoforpyros
Sep 20, 2006, 12:41 AM
Close-minded, as in disinterested and unreceptive to one of the most important questions humans have ever raised. Although, there is a bit of ambiguity in the original statement, so maybe I'm being a bit harsh. :)

ahh ok, I guess in that respect you are correct. I just sort of viewed it more as the preacher saying "maybe our current interpretation (the bible) isn't correct and isn't worth fighting over"

I mean certainly makes more sense to say "I believe god created man through evolution and heres the evidence..." than it does to say "god created man and it's all exactly how this old books says it happened"

I just find the whole attack on science to be rather scary, and coming across a handful of religious people who are open enough to admit that the bible isn't a text book/science is refreshing to me.

Don't panic
Sep 20, 2006, 05:34 PM
...meanwhile, scientists discovered the remains of a 3 million years old hominid child, furthering the knowledge on the origin of man
http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/hominiddevelopment/index.html (they even have a podcast)

eventually, all religions will 'incorporate' evolution into their teachings, or will be laughed out of existence.
unfortunately, before that happens they can still a lot of damage.

solvs
Sep 21, 2006, 05:30 AM
I can't believe how wrong the article of this author got the Catholic Church's stance.
The last Pope made things pretty clear, I don't know why people seem to forget it so easily. And not just people like the author of the article, but the subjects of the article as well. But this isn't about religion or science. Religion is just a convenient scapegoat.

Damn fundies, always ruining things for the rest of us.