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whattheduece
Sep 19, 2006, 01:17 PM
Hello everybody, Long time viewer first time poster :) ...

With Microsoft releasing Microsoft Expression Graphic Designer what do you think will happen to the market? I know several marketing managers today that feel when their secretary/assistant "turns on" Photoshop that she is a designer. I find this a common thought especially from many new "designers". People think that since they can turn on a program an, use some of the tools that they are designers. I mean you can't find an actual design forum where the majority of the conversations are about actual design process/skills they all seem over run with "photoshop question".

Do you think that with Microsoft's new programs it will damage the name and integrity of designers beyond the point that Adobe already has? (Don't get me wrong I love the Adobe Programs that I use, I just believe that design is more than the mastery of the programs we use) Will we see a new set of "designers" who think they know design, but rather just know a program like so many of todays "Adobe-designer"?

Just wondering what your thoughts are?



Blue Velvet
Sep 19, 2006, 01:29 PM
Welcome to (posting in) MR. :)

When I start seeing job ads looking for designers proficient in Microsoft apps, that's when I'll start to get worried. ;)

Know what you mean about skills though. Yesterday, we received some truly atrocious press ads done by a so-called designer. Multi-coloured Arial running across jaggy JPGs, no bleed, RGB... 72ppi. Truly horrific.

Think there's a backlash happening though. Competition for junior places is tough... mid/senior-weight people can afford to be picky about who they choose and technical proficiency is certainly an area that we would scrutinise very closely.

At interview, portfolios don't mean much. I don't know what constraints time or resources you produced that under. The time-limited test reveals far more.

Coming back to these MS apps, think they're just a revamped MS Publisher type-thing anyway. Haven't looked into them in great detail but would be surprised if they could even work with spot colours.

Sdashiki
Sep 19, 2006, 01:57 PM
I am sure when/if, please not just IF, Adobe integrates FLASH into photoshop and its other programs....that NO one could stand in Adobe's way.

Why did they buy Macromedia, and do nothing with it?

Flash + Illustrator + Photoshop = one helluva creative suite

iGav
Sep 19, 2006, 02:40 PM
If it brings something new to the table, and if it's any good then designers will use it.

If it doesn't, and it's not, then we won't.

ATD
Sep 19, 2006, 03:24 PM
It will take more than a good set of apps, designers will need a reason to change their workflow. Putting Microsoft on the package is not a reason for myself and most designers I know to change. I'm sure that a few of secretaries/assistants that are now doing power points might start using it but I can't see it taking over the design field. Photoshop challenged the Paintbox many years ago and took it's business away. The reason for that was pretty solid considering the Paintbox was selling for $750,000.00 at the time. CS is a solid product at a good price, the only reason it lose business to Microsoft Expression Graphic Designer is out of pure ignorance.


Welcome to MR.

mox358
Sep 19, 2006, 05:40 PM
Seeing as how well Frontpage fared against Dreamweaver, I don't think Adobe has anything to worry about. Microsoft doesn't understand how to design software that "gets out of the way" and lets you work. MS software is more about hand-holding which no designer in his right mind could stand more than 5 minutes.

Microsoft doesn't control design/graphics thankfully, and its a VERY entrenched market where they don't have any software in use. Adobe has most of the apps and Apple still owns the hardware/desktop.

Just my 2.

whattheduece
Sep 19, 2006, 06:25 PM
I'm not implying that Microsoft's programs will kill Adobe's programs. What I'm saying is with everybody having access to these supposed "Designer" programs, that you'll see more people saying "I'm a designer" the way many do with Adobe's programs already, thus lowering the value of true designers. I know that among designers we'll be able to tell the difference, but to everyone else I feel will not put much stock into it, as they'll think everyone and their dog can do it.

shecky
Sep 19, 2006, 06:39 PM
I'm not implying that Microsoft's programs will kill Adobe's programs. What I'm saying is with everybody having access to these supposed "Designer" programs, that you'll see more people saying "I'm a designer" the way many do with Adobe's programs already, thus lowering the value of true designers. I know that among designers we'll be able to tell the difference, but to everyone else I feel will not put much stock into it, as they'll think everyone and their dog can do it.

it raises the value of real professional designers doing real professional design because it makes the public as a whole more aware of design, and will also lead to the public as a whole putting more value on good design.

as i have said before on this forum, someone making logos for their mom's friend's local knitting business is not competition, even remotely, for the true creative professional. (no offense to anyone's mom, anyone's mom's friend, or knitting in general intended)

software proficiency is the least important arrow in a real designer's quiver, unfortunately it is often the only arrow in the hack designer's quiver.

baleensavage
Sep 19, 2006, 06:53 PM
Ask any person working at a printing house or newspaper what one word that can make them cringe when coming from a clients mouth and chances are you will hear the word "Publisher." Microsoft has already tried, miserably, to get into the graphics business. Unfortunately they also bundled Publisher with the professional version of Office. So every mom and pop business out there that gets Office gets publisher and now all of a sudden they are graphic designers. Of course even worse than publisher is Microsoft Word. When people try to do graphic design in Word, you know there is a problem. The really sad part is that it can take hours to try to do graphic design in Word. I get ads done in Word at the paper I work at where I have no idea how they even made the file (and they probably don't either). Of course I just save it to a txt file then set it in Quark...

Microsoft's general philosphy does not work for graphics. They try to make all their software so anyone can use it. Except the problem is that not everyone can actually succesfully do graphic design. Try explaining trapping or bleed or even kerning to your average Office user and you will get dumb stares. Microsoft should just stick to what it does best, making a virus-ridden, operating system that crashes all the time.

dornoforpyros
Sep 19, 2006, 07:21 PM
the short answer, no

tools don't make the artist and although some people do see design as something that any monkey with a mouse & a keyboard can do, there will always be business & clients that are willing to pay for good work.

There will always be that small percentage of business that are fine with letting their secretary/nephew/intern/whatever do everything with basic desktop publishing programs. But really, those business aren't spending enough on advertising materials to make it hurt any professionals anyways.

macdon401
Sep 19, 2006, 07:58 PM
"Everyone wants to Direct" and with the flood of cheap DV cams, everyone is,
usually kids with no talent, new Dad's with ugly little kids and wanna be porn stars ...and the result is usually very bad, just go to YouTube, my point is, Apple produces Pages, which is well put together, but Quark and InDesign are safe, Microsoft will just be another really poorly designed piece of software from Redmond that will appeal to the masses with no talent.
R

chaosbunny
Sep 20, 2006, 05:17 AM
I do not think that there is any danger to established agencies/professionals. Their clients are usually more or less huge enterprises who need and know the structures and quality of an agency.

But more easy to use for everybody apps could harm young small independent freelancers like myself. I often have to deal with clients who tell me why they should pay me 300-500 for a folder when their friend/nephew/whatever does it for 50 . Sometimes I manage to succeed in telling them I went 2 years to a graphic design college for a reason, show them my work and explain them the quality with simple examples. For many people a folder is a folder, if they don't have anything to do with design it is only natural that they do not see any difference in the first place. I then use comparisons like:

"ok, I can sell you a car, one for 500 and one for 50000, which one will you take? Ok, one is a new mercedes and the other one is a rusty pile of junk that will fall apart after 6 months, but both are cars. You want to represent your company with a mercedes or a junk pile?"

It often works, but not always, and more competition from people who just know how to start 2 programmes and apply some filters could mean more talking and less designing for me.

dogbone
Sep 20, 2006, 05:18 AM
@whattheduece

"I just believe that design is more than the mastery of the programs we use..."

To be clear, mastery of a program has nothing at all to do with design skills. A designer with no digital skills can present a highly finished design to someone proficient with a graphic program and the two together will produce a finished digital artwork.

The problem you are presenting is similar to how with the advent of dtp suddenly the arcane skills of the typographer were overlooked by the masses as everyone with a computer and a drop shadow typface, became their own typographer.

Designers will never use microsoft products in significant numbers because by definition they are sensitive souls and would not brook the ugly world of micro and soft.

whattheduece
Sep 20, 2006, 10:29 AM
The problem you are presenting is similar to how with the advent of dtp suddenly the arcane skills of the typographer were overlooked by the masses as everyone with a computer and a drop shadow typface, became their own typographer.

This is exactly what I'm saying. With this new offering by Microsoft and the slew of other DTP programs do you think it will weaken the "name" of true designers. I know agencies will always have their big name clients but what about the "Freelancer" ( I hate that term). Like choasbunny put it with the car analogy (which I like mind if I use that from time to time, chaosbunny?) If every new car came out with the Porsche name attached to it don't you think that would kill the real Porsche brand?

CrackedButter
Sep 20, 2006, 10:35 AM
Microsoft won't kill design, the masses Microsoft will sell to will kill design ... for themselves and once they do, the professionals will happily chug along and be greatly appreciated for it.

I haven't noticed anybody ask the same question of Apple's consumer level software like Keynote, iWeb, features in iPhoto or iWork. Seems we have faith in Apple's offerings.

Sdashiki
Sep 20, 2006, 11:16 AM
just gonna make the real designers alot easier to spot.

id ignore a resume that included anything but Windows and Office as programs they are familiar with that Microsoft produces.

if you see M$ in place of Adobe, you know you aint got the job.

:rolleyes:

zero2dash
Sep 20, 2006, 01:43 PM
The words 'Microsoft' and 'Design' don't belong in the same sentence.

Anyone who uses any Microsoft application and claims to be a Graphic Designer needs a firm talking to. As for it being a problem in the industry or causing trouble for a 'regular' designer (ie an Adobe or Quark person), like the old saying goes "the cream always rises to the top". I'd love to see the look on the face of a self-appointed (Microsoft) 'designer' being told to do an InDesign layout when all they're used to is Publisher.

I've seen documents done by an obvious Microsoft designer before. You see them coming a mile away. "I've got a business card I need you to print. Here's a cd with the file." -What type of file is it and what version?- "Oh, it's an Excel file."

Yes I'm serious. I've seen business cards and resumes done in Excel. /snicker

kitki83
Sep 20, 2006, 02:15 PM
"ok, I can sell you a car, one for 500 and one for 50000, which one will you take? Ok, one is a new mercedes and the other one is a rusty pile of junk that will fall apart after 6 months, but both are cars. You want to represent your company with a mercedes or a junk pile?"



Thank you I always needed to tell people that when I have similar situations.

Like this DVD of a Wedding I have to reauthor, the person told me well it was free with photo package. Just because something is free or cheap doesnt mean its nice.

deputy_doofy
Sep 20, 2006, 02:22 PM
In this instance, MS won't kill design any more than Apple killed musicians with Garageband. Hell, I've put together well over 100 "tunes" with pre-made (and ripped sounds) loops. I'm, by far, NOT a musician and would never get paid as one.

Sdashiki
Sep 20, 2006, 02:26 PM
In this instance, MS won't kill design any more than Apple killed musicians with Garageband. Hell, I've put together well over 100 "tunes" with pre-made (and ripped sounds) loops. I'm, by far, NOT a musician and would never get paid as one.

but you could make almost any "trendy" MTV show or commercial.

I hear Apple Loops ALL day.

deputy_doofy
Sep 20, 2006, 02:27 PM
but you could make almost any "trendy" MTV show or commercial.

I hear Apple Loops ALL day.

Yes, me too. Comcast is quite guilty. :D

Sdashiki
Sep 20, 2006, 02:30 PM
And pron is filled with LiveType presets.

ATD
Sep 20, 2006, 02:45 PM
I have to agree with the others here that are saying it's going to make real designers stand out more. I took a look at the product page, all I saw was just a big bag of tricks/effects, another hollow product with a shiny surface. Just another MS attempt to jump into a market that they have no understanding of. It will only deepen the divide between problem solving design vs push button/make pretty crap.

dpaanlka
Sep 20, 2006, 03:02 PM
While alarming, Microsoft's past design apps never met with much industry fanfare.

What professional have you ever met that actually uses Microsoft Publisher, or Microsoft FrontPage?

They were always the butt of jokes (especially FrontPage), and I'm sure this will be too.

chaosbunny
Sep 21, 2006, 05:34 AM
Like choasbunny put it with the car analogy (which I like mind if I use that from time to time, chaosbunny?)

You're welcome.:)

Works not only with cars but with pretty much everything. If I happen to know what the client is interested in than I use that for comparison, huge bonus!:D

Unspeaked
Sep 21, 2006, 01:07 PM
I'm not implying that Microsoft's programs will kill Adobe's programs. What I'm saying is with everybody having access to these supposed "Designer" programs, that you'll see more people saying "I'm a designer" the way many do with Adobe's programs already, thus lowering the value of true designers. I know that among designers we'll be able to tell the difference, but to everyone else I feel will not put much stock into it, as they'll think everyone and their dog can do it.

I don't know, I still don't see your point.

The percentage of people who think they're "designers" is already at a saturation point.

Heck, if a kid can pimp out his MySpace page, he calls himself a web designer.

So I don't see who's left that would even WANT to label themselves designers that isn't using some really basic tool already.

That being said, I think a sorry thing in the industry is people are being hired as designers based more on their computer skills and less on their design skills.

To me, that's like hiring a doctor because he can handle a scalpel well, but doesn't really know much about internal medicine.

You need a balance of BOTH, no any one skill.

Unspeaked
Sep 21, 2006, 01:14 PM
Also, this thread is full to the brim with hypocrisy.

One the one hand, the majority of posters are saying "a designer's skills are found in his soul, his gentle sense of color, his ability to see contrast in the world around him and translate it in a beautiful artistic dance to paper."*

They then go on to say, "a true designer creates in his mind. He doesn't need Adobe Photoshop or Quark XPress, they are just tools used to carve out his mental image."*

But then, everyone's saying, "if I saw Microsoft on someone's resume, I would laugh at them, tell them they don't know jack about design, and hire the guy sitting next to them who knows InDesign."*

Um, whatever happened to design being a mental skill and the computer just being a tool??


* - Not direct quotes. ;)

Sdashiki
Sep 21, 2006, 01:23 PM
if your portfolio sucks, you wont get hired.

people here have a feeling, as I do myself, that you wont have a good portfolio if all you know is M$ programs.


I believe what the masses are saying, is that design skills are learned and put to use. M$ barely understands the industry, so their programs dont teach much.

but w/e, lets see what they put out, and THEN bash it.

2ndPath
Sep 21, 2006, 02:23 PM
Didn't Microsoft already do many of these things you are expecting, when they release a desing program? Many people nowadays abuse word or powerpoint exactly for this purpose. And often the "designs", which come out don't even test the limitations of these MS programs, but rather reflect the design skills of the people who use them (or a combination of both).

dpaanlka
Sep 21, 2006, 02:43 PM
But then, everyone's saying, "if I saw Microsoft on someone's resume, I would laugh at them, tell them they don't know jack about design, and hire the guy sitting next to them who knows InDesign."

Well, all one has to do is look at Publisher and FrontPage, and how highly regarded people aren't that claim proficiency with these apps.

Sdashiki
Sep 21, 2006, 03:02 PM
I had a colleague hand me a file and say, "Hey ive been designing this poster for a long time, could you help me out"

its a friggen POWERPOINT file.

OMFG, a 48"x36" poster, done in Powerpoint.


I had to just use it as a reference and do the whole thing over in InDesign.

dpaanlka
Sep 21, 2006, 03:08 PM
48"x36" poster, done in Powerpoint.

Wayyyy to be...

apfhex
Sep 21, 2006, 03:18 PM
Um, whatever happened to design being a mental skill and the computer just being a tool??
It's harder to paint with a screwdriver. :D

Good design comes from the persons own creativity and understanding/use of design principles plus an ability to make good use of the proper tools.

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 03:23 PM
Um, whatever happened to design being a mental skill and the computer just being a tool??


No, not being able to tell the difference between a good set of tools and crappy ones speaks volumes about a persons skills.

shecky
Sep 21, 2006, 03:25 PM
I had to just use it as a reference and do the whole thing over in InDesign.

ironically, InDesign is not the right program for making posters either. Illustrator is.

kitki83
Sep 21, 2006, 03:26 PM
I had a colleague hand me a file and say, "Hey ive been designing this poster for a long time, could you help me out"

its a friggen POWERPOINT file.

OMFG, a 48"x36" poster, done in Powerpoint.


I had to just use it as a reference and do the whole thing over in InDesign.



OMG my company does all their artwork in Powerpoint T_T.
I mean before i got hired they had this Buddha-hippy-blunt person design the stuff. >< omg she used cursive font for program highlights and omg cold flahses happening >< Omg it was horror.....the horror.......the horror..........

Blue Velvet
Sep 21, 2006, 04:56 PM
ironically, InDesign is not the right program for making posters either. Illustrator is.


Over-prescriptive nonsense. If I want to do nice type easily, I'll composite everything in InDesign or Quark from a variety of sources; EPSs, TIFFs, whatever...

Illustrator is not the ideal tool for body copy. It's type handling and H&J implementation is too awkward.

shecky
Sep 21, 2006, 05:02 PM
Illustrator is not the ideal tool for body copy. It's type handling and H&J implementation is too awkward.

you are right. of course, its a good thing that posters do not have "body copy"

i pretty sure that i know many, many more poster designers, internationally and domestically than you do (tho i am not positive of this). I have worked with them, for them, and near them. none of them that i have met use indesign. All of them use illustrator or do it by hand. I can only go by my own experience and those i have seen do it better than i can.

even with your 25+ years of experience it is possible you do not know everything. don't ever forget that.

Blue Velvet
Sep 21, 2006, 05:08 PM
you are right. of course, its a good thing that posters do not have "body copy"

Many of them do. My point is that there is no 'right' program for poster design... many posters do have boiler-plate. Who wants to set that in Illustrator?

shecky
Sep 21, 2006, 05:18 PM
My point is that there is no 'right' program for poster design.

that is your opinion which i certainly respect. i disagree, and that is my opinion. my initial comment was actually meant to be a bit more ironic than definitive, i will need to work on a smiley that means "ironic."

next time i would greatly appreciate you just disagreeing with me as opposed to telling me one of my comments is "nonsense," when it most certainly is not.

thanks :)

(and i did not intend to hijack this thread with this stuff. back to your regularly scheduled microsoft-bashing.)

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 05:35 PM
Many of them do. My point is that there is no 'right' program for poster design... many posters do have boiler-plate. Who wants to set that in Illustrator?



You are right, there is no set program. But it may surprise some that with movie posters the artwork is done in Photoshop and all the type is done in Illustrator then it's all put together in Quark or InDesign. The reason the type is done in Illustrator is a legal reason. There is a legal contractual relationship between the size of billing block and the size of the logo. If the billing block drops below the contractual relationship size it will trigger a lawsuit. Thats why you see billing blocks in those insanely condensed faces, the cap height needs to be high to get the logo up in size. Because it's done as one unit in Illustrator (billing + logo) it leaves little chance of resizing the elements wrong in Quark.

Blue Velvet
Sep 21, 2006, 05:41 PM
...the artwork is done in Photoshop and all the type is done in Illustrator then it's all put together in Quark.


Interesting. I'm not in the habit of doing movie posters, but there you go... You use a combination of tools (usually none of them Microsoft products) to do the job. I suspect many who use Illustrator exclusively are set in their ways but there are many ways to skin a cat, as it were... ;)

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 06:02 PM
Interesting. I'm not in the habit of doing movie posters, but there you go... You use a combination of tools (usually none of them Microsoft products) to do the job. I suspect many who use Illustrator exclusively are set in their ways but there are many ways to skin a cat, as it were... ;)


Illustrator is a painful way to do type but it's better than a lawsuit. ;)

dogbone
Sep 21, 2006, 07:23 PM
@ATD

"But it may surprise some that with movie posters...


That is interesting info, I always wondered about those supercondensed fonts

It appears that ms has vector and bitmapped ability but then Canvas has been doing that for years. So I don't see what ms has to offer, it's not a company known for its deep understanding of the needs of designers. In fact the interface of it's product already appears risibly kludgy.

faustfire
Sep 21, 2006, 07:42 PM
i pretty sure that i know many, many more poster designers, internationally and domestically than you do

Wow, ultra smug.:cool:

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 08:13 PM
Sorry to let this thread drift so far off point but I would like to add that doing these billings in Illustrator saves a lot of time for the legal departments as well. They simply sign off on a few master billings rather than pouring over each and ever Quark poster/ad which number in the 100s. If it was not for this legal issue, I for one would not choose Illustrator to do type in and I do lots of posters.

shecky
Sep 21, 2006, 08:49 PM
Wow, ultra smug.:cool:

sorry if it came off that way, i have just had a lot of opportunities to meet and interact with far more than the average allotment of great designers. ;)

shecky
Sep 21, 2006, 08:57 PM
I for one would not choose Illustrator to do type in and I do lots of posters.


and i have found that the posters i have done (and seen done by the aforementioned designers) use fairly small amounts of "body" text (to my point of saying posters do not have "body" text; they have blocks of text in which things like hyphenation are not done. of course, there are exceptions to everything.); much more often its a block or two of type, with type acting much more as a formal element rather than purely a linguistic one. manipulating type like this, i + those i have watched much prefer illustrator. i think of it less as "setting" type than working with type + image harmoniously. i am not doing movie posters as such, so obviously we have different experiences.

i did not know about the legal issues either; it never ceases to amaze me how much i don't know about the world of design and design business.

again, getting back on topic, the program is a hell of a lot less important than we are making it out to be here. its about all the other other stuff :)

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 09:25 PM
acting much more as a formal element rather than purely a linguistic one.

In that kind of case I do prefer Illustrator.


i did not know about the legal issues either; it never ceases to amaze me how much i don't know about the world of design and design business.

BTW, I just remembered an old story. Yes I'm going way way off track here, hope you all don't mind. ;) There was a Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin movie many years ago that had a insane contact written. It stated that neither one could be billed over the other referring to the names at the top of the poster. Neither name could be in front or top of the other. Off hand that would suggest that the 2 names would have to print on top of each other. The designer solved the problem by creating an X out of the 2 names. These legal contacts can get very long and insane sometimes.

dogbone
Sep 21, 2006, 09:30 PM
The designer solved the problem by creating an X out of the 2 names.

So what happened where the names crossed at the X midpoint?

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 09:33 PM
So what happened where the names crossed at the X midpoint?


I never saw the poster, I guess very good kerning and tracking helped. :D

iMeowbot
Sep 21, 2006, 09:47 PM
So what happened where the names crossed at the X midpoint?
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1089/boeingne0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

ATD
Sep 21, 2006, 09:53 PM
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1089/boeingne0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


LOL Thanks, I was almost right.


BTW there is another interesting legal oddity here. Most movie posters have the actors names on top, then the logo followed by a billing in which the actors names and the movie title are repeated. I guess the designer wanted to avoid crossing the names a 2nd time in the billing so this lobby card is just one big billing. Don't you just love the way lawyers can dictate design.

iMeowbot
Sep 22, 2006, 03:06 AM
BTW there is another interesting legal oddity here. Most movie posters have the actors names on top, then the logo followed by a billing in which the actors names and the movie title are repeated. I guess the designer wanted to avoid crossing the names a 2nd time in the billing so this lobby card is just one big billing. Don't you just love the way lawyers can dictate design.
It sure looks that way. Here's (http://www.movieposter.com/poster/b70-898/Boeing_Boeing.html) a variation on that one that would have had plenty of room for a less wacky arrangement, but the same trick was used. It comes off looking like a mixed metaphor for trains or something :/

----

Back to the Microsoft thing, the "Graphic Designer" module of MS Expression is very much the old Creature House product with even more indecipherable icons tacked on. I don't think it will be a threat to anyone but the poor souls who try to figure out the interface. It can do some interesting things, but it's not something Bob from Accounttemps will figure out over lunch.

dogbone
Sep 22, 2006, 04:31 AM
That crossing the names thing would never have been a solution these days as the lawyers would have their psychologists arguing over which name is more prominent, upper left flowing to lower right or lower left flowing to upper right.

iMeowbot
Sep 22, 2006, 05:03 AM
That won't do, unless they first negotiate joint custody of the trailing IS.

Unspeaked
Sep 22, 2006, 09:17 AM
This whole Illustrator vs. InDesign argument sort of exemplifies my earlier statement that someone could make something in Stickies and still be worthy of job consideration if they final output was presentable and they showed enough design intuition.

That poster argument became something like this:

"Anyone who designs posters with a Microsoft product is a moron! Everyone knows you need to use InDesign for that stuff..."

"Who are you calling a moron, moron? InDesign is almost as bad as Microsoft's offerings when it comes to posters! You need Illustrator..."

The point being that neither is 100% correct.

Sure, it may take much longer to do certain things in Publisher than Illustrator or the like, but my point has been if some kid applies for a design job and hasn't had the money (or even product knowledge) to pick up Adobe CS, that doesn't discount his talent nor his ability to learn these products.

Heck, if anything, I'd be IMPRESSED he could design something elegant in Publisher; if he can do that with a tool as awkward as it, imagine what he'd do with something more robust!

askthedust
Sep 22, 2006, 10:32 AM
Not worried about that because people still use word art to do stuff and it has yet to look professional. Google released sketchup and I haven't become an architect. It's still being trained to do the job that matters imho.

ATD
Sep 22, 2006, 01:04 PM
That crossing the names thing would never have been a solution these days as the lawyers would have their psychologists arguing over which name is more prominent, upper left flowing to lower right or lower left flowing to upper right.

That won't do, unless they first negotiate joint custody of the trailing IS.

LOL OK, let's not give the lawyers any more ideas, it's bad enough as it is. ;)

belovedmonster
Sep 22, 2006, 02:17 PM
Im no graphical designer, but it seems to me that the only thing on the horizon that is going to compete with Adobe is the open source stuff like GIMP and Inkscape. That stuff is rough around the edges at the minute but you only need to look at Open Office to see that in the future these design apps should match 95% of what you can do with Adobe, but without any costs what so ever. Perhaps a better example is the open source 3D app Blender, which as I understand it is fast approaching being a competitor to the likes of Maya.

mooncaine
Sep 22, 2006, 02:33 PM
chaosbunny, why not look up some research that shows your customers the demonstrated value of good design? That way, you can show them that there are good scientific and financial reasons to pay a designer to present your message.

Start with the books of Edward Tufte. You'll be able to appeal to their wallet, showing them how a finely crafted, intelligently designed ad will make them more money, by reaching more cutomers' attentions, than a poorly designed ad.

Example: you'll be able to point to research proving that any use of fonts that don't contrast with the background makes them harder to read, hence more often ignored by viewers. So their red Times Roman font over a photo of a lush green forest will actually *cost them money* by turning away viewers, whereas your better designed image would ensure that the message of their text reaches the viewers' attention -- the whole point of imagery in business, right?

ATD
Sep 22, 2006, 03:38 PM
Perhaps a better example is the open source 3D app Blender, which as I understand it is fast approaching being a competitor to the likes of Maya.


Hardly. If you are just looking at the marketing of features when it comes to many 3D apps you will see they all try to touch on the same hot buzz words. From that point of view they look a lot the same. Mayas internal structure is far different than any 3D app on the market. When you start looking at it's interconnectivity, workflow, expandability (not 3rd party products but within the program itself), it's advanced features and it's integration with an army of 3rd party products you will see a program vastly outdistances any app.

After that, try these other apps that claim all these great features and see how well they actually do what they claim. Then try it in Maya. The difference is night and day.

BTW Maya is open source in that it's code is complete exposed while you are working in the program. The app allows anyone to customize it at will. You can highlight the code in a window and drag it to another part of the program. It creates a button that an instant tool/plugin. You can then go back and edit the code any way you wish. You can create a whole sub program if you wish. This is why the movie studios love Maya, just about any high end effect they can think of can be rewritten into the program. They work closely with the techs at Maya to extend the program, the trade off for the help from the Maya techs is the advanced effects/features that they develop will be in later versions of Maya. Then everyone else can copy them.

iGav
Sep 22, 2006, 03:45 PM
There is a legal contractual relationship between the size of billing block and the size of the logo. If the billing block drops below the contractual relationship size it will trigger a lawsuit.

I had no idea that film poster design would be so restrictive, so is this a literal legal blanket restriction on every single film poster? or is it/can be dependent on studio, director, actors etc?

ATD
Sep 22, 2006, 04:22 PM
I had no idea that film poster design would be so restrictive, so is this a literal legal blanket restriction on every single film poster? or is it/can be dependent on studio, director, actors etc?


Every major film has these contracts, independent films are a lot less tied to them. It extends far beyond just the logo and billing relationship. For example actors have equal likeness clauses that state if one actor is shown in an ad the other must be the same size etc. There are sometimes even equal likeness clauses between CG characters. I would not be the lease bit surprised to hear that Yoda had a team of lawyers working for him. Sometimes it will dictate the design of an ad by saying what order/relationship the actors must appear in. It seems like there is always some contract issue we have to be careful with. When you mix big money with big egos you get lots of messy politics. :rolleyes:


BTW, after the poster passes the contract stipulations it then has to pass the ratings board. Even if a film is geared to adults it has to be acceptable the larger public meaning children. I have never broken a contract stipulation but I have been involved with a few projects that didn't pass the ratings board on the first round. :rolleyes:

dogbone
Sep 22, 2006, 09:11 PM
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1089/boeingne0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Any enterprising actors could have changes their names to Tony Lewis and Jerry Curtis and received free advertising.

ATD
Sep 22, 2006, 09:22 PM
Any enterprising actors could have changes their names to Tony Lewis and Jerry Curtis and received free advertising.


LOL true, If they could get a name like that passed by S.A.G. :D

stainlessliquid
Sep 22, 2006, 11:16 PM
Let me ask you this: Did the pencil kill art?

The pencil made drawing available to the masses, and art is one of those stupid philosophical things that people think can apply to everything from baby puke to the Mona Lisa. Art is still going strong and real artists are still recognized over Bobby the 5 year old that can stay inside the lines. Singing is another one, just look at American Idol, theres a lot of people out there who consider themselves good singers but the public still isnt fooled.

Microsoft isnt going to kill design, it sounds kind of like a pompous question honestly. Geocities and Angelfire have probably contributed more to designer delinquency than Microsoft ever could (but theyve also created a number of great designers that realized their hidden talent through mainstream crap like that). Powerpoint is a rather ridiculous thing in office professions, some of the stuff Ive seen makes me cringe as a designer.

The average person that isnt a complete self deluded moron will still understand the difference between a professional designer and a self proclaimed designer. When someone asks you what you do for a living youll beable to say "graphic design" while the guy using the Microsoft program wont, that will always say something.

Let people have their hobbys and think they are something they arent. It will always happen with every professional occupation on the planet. Its best to worry about your abilities in the professional world and ignore the rest.