Apple vs Dealers?

[Datazoid]

Apple's gotta stop doing things like this to retailers; pretty soon there won't be anybody left selling Macs (except Apple themselves).

see link: http://www.thinksecret.com/news/dealercontracts.html

[Spike Spiegel]

and to think, apple was gonna make some money from dell. oh well

[Sun Baked]

A bad move by Apple when they are fighting a RICO lawsuit...

Here sign this "Get out of Litigation Free" card for us or we'll put some of you out-of-business. Sounds like heavy handed RICO-style tactics to me.

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by Datazoid
Apple's gotta stop doing things like this to retailers; pretty soon there won't be anybody left selling Macs (except Apple themselves).

see link: http://www.thinksecret.com/news/dealercontracts.html

Bingo! Now you're getting it. Apple doesn't care about their retail channel. That's why they've opened Apple Stores.

Apple is trying to maximize profits and to do so they must cut out the middle men and keep those profts that would normally go to the independant stores. People this is all by design.

[FelixDerKater]

Apple loves to screw themselves. Everytime things start looking up they somehow find a way to mess it up. With all of the charisma and innovation he brings, Jobs has no sense of how to run a business.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by FelixDerKater
Apple loves to screw themselves. Everytime things start looking up they somehow find a way to mess it up. With all of the charisma and innovation he brings, Jobs has no sense of how to run a business.

Jobs is elitist in the extreme. Its sad actually and unfortunately there's not much you can do about.

I wonder if General Cybernetics got screwed again....

D

[nanosound]

Yes, we've seen this with the recent PB 17 shipping "issues". Too bad Apple has chosen this route. We're seeing the Clone Wars all over again. Oh, and don't forget they chose not to license their OS when the had the chance. It's all about control. Unfortunately, they chose to fight those that would ultimately expand their profits and marketshare. Bummer.

[iJon]

wow, im still confused by the article. were they contracts sent to apple and they rejected them, or were they contracts sent to the resellers and they rejected them?

iJon

[szark]

The way I understand it, Apple sent new contracts to the resellers, who rejected them. Then some resellers sent Apple a list of changes to the contracts which would satisfy their objections, and Apple rejected those changes.

[iJon]

Originally posted by szark
The way I understand it, Apple sent new contracts to the resellers, who rejected them. Then some resellers sent Apple a list of changes to the contracts which would satisfy their objections, and Apple rejected those changes.
now that makes more sense, thanks.

iJon

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by dukestreet
I wonder if General Cybernetics got screwed again....

I was wondering the same thing. BTTM has been pretty scarce lately...

[jaredbbauer]

This is getting really old. I loved that organizations like Target were able to sell apple products. For those of us in the boonies that was really really nice. There will never be an apple store in the part of Idaho I live in but Target is right around the corner. Stupid Apple Stupid Apple Stupid Apple. This sucks more for their customers than it hurts them thats for sure. Do they honestly believe that they will sell windows ipods in mass through apple.com? Honestly that is ridiculous.

[moby1]

I had a legal counsel advise to accept these types of agreements with ridiculous restrictions on litigation simply because such silly restrictions ("i.e. no jury trial") never hold up before a judge.

Apple should focus on making great computers and getting them out the door (period).

[The Shadow]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Bingo! Now you're getting it. Apple doesn't care about their retail channel. That's why they've opened Apple Stores.

Apple is trying to maximize profits and to do so they must cut out the middle men and keep those profts that would normally go to the independant stores. People this is all by design.

I hope Job's and his minions aren't quite that arrogant, but you may be right.

But it's just not strategically sound. Apple should consider themselves in the business of making innovative hardware and software, that's where their smarts are, not in running retail shops.

It would be suicide for Apple to try to do a Dell, using the Apple shop format alone. Of course, they got this idea from Sony, and it's a good idea to raise profile and strengthen the brand. But let's face it, Sony have many other retail channels. Sony would sink quicker than HMAS Hood (10 minutes from the time it engaged Bismarck - if your'e wondering :) ) if it had to rely on Sony shops alone.

There are many professional retailers out there who know their business. Apple really needs to suck up to these guys, instead they've always given them a hard time. I've never understood that.

[shadowfax]

this is kinda nasty. i mean, apple, i hope, can't afford to lose the 3rd party retailers now. it would be fine in, say, a few years if they get their apple stores way widespread, but i know i for one depend heavily on them, not being within 3 hours' drive of an apple store... they should wait to burn bridges.

[Rustus Maximus]

nobody panic...

Al Gore will straighten all of this out...and it will involve some sort of lockbox I'm sure...

2...3...4...

(sound of crickets chirping)

Rustus

[Abstract]

Apple may be a year away from losing Adobe and their resellers. Wow, that takes quiet an impressive string of dumb business decisions --- one after another for Apple.

Apple stores exist for the sole purpose of advertising. Their stores, as well as their presence in busy urban centres, serve as an advertisement for their product. That is why Sony has it's own stores. They sell Sony products all over the place, but the stores that are most important are their own. Looking at a Sony stereo system in a Futureshop (Canada's largest electronics store chain) store is great, and very convenient, but looking at one in a beautiful Sony store, being immersed in the Sony brand itself is the reason those stores exist. Even if the half the number of stores started losing money, they would still be kept open as long as the losses at each location are not too high. Interactive branded worlds like NikeTown are the same way. No NikeTown has ever turned a profit. Nike knows this, but they don't care because they have hundreds of thousands of stores selling their product. Niketown is treated as an interactive advertisement to lure potential customers into experiencing the Nike brand. An experience is much more memorable than an advertisement, so the money spent on these enormous stores is just another Nike advertising expense. If a customer has a great time at a NikeTown, s/he may consider purchasing a pair of Nike basketball shoes more strongly the next time s/he needs to purchase a pair of shoes.

Apple needs to stop treating their stores as their most important revenue source, and treat it as an interactive Apple amusement park to allow potential customers to enjoy their Apple experience, and either purchase their product right there at the Apple store itself, or allow the customer to make a decision at a later date, and purchase one at a nearby reseller at a Target store when the time is right, as Jaredbbauer had suggested. To compete with your own resellers is to cannabalize your own sales. Why would you want to do that?

[kidA]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Bingo! Now you're getting it. Apple doesn't care about their retail channel. That's why they've opened Apple Stores.

Apple is trying to maximize profits and to do so they must cut out the middle men and keep those profts that would normally go to the independant stores. People this is all by design.
the problem with your reasoning is that it's not how business works. you don't simply get to claim all those profits. by selling products direct, you incur a whole bunch of other costs. that's why most companies sell their stuff to a retailer who turns around and "resells" it. that's why their called resellers. that way manufacturers don't have to worry about all the costs that come with running a retail store--like sales employees, teenage cashiers, among a whole gamut of other things. The only reason dell survives with their business model is that they started out that way and built themselves a good rep with businesses, who buy in large quantities and make great return customers. HP or Sony would die in a second if they simply pulled the plug on all the Compusas and Circuit Cities and tried to be the exclusive reseller of their own products.

[jlambert]

One thing everyone is missing by making comparisons to PC manufactures is the fact that yes...they would die if they only ran there own stores, but that is because people would just by a different branded PC.

Apple is apple, its the only place that makes macs. So if you want a mac then your going to get it on their website or at one of their stores which will soon be everywhere.

Think of the PC market as an Orange and Apple as well, Apples. you cant compare them.

Apple has no competitors therefore YES they can survive doing this. If you want a mac you'll get it. Keeping everything in their stores allows them to keep tight control of their products. If they want to know how many iPods are still out there before they make an update they would know easily. If they are all at different retailers they have no control over it. It's not like apple can log onto best buys inventory control and see it.

It's a very smart move.

[Panda Genma]

I direct attention to another part of the article mentioning the problems with service. I worked in Apple service for a couple years with well known and respected reseller. Myself and another guy were doing the service. It was a complicated system of ordering parts and sending them back, but we did it, we sent them all back. First of all, we saw so many new defective units come in there. When the 333MHz iMacs were new, they filled the office. Older ones too. It got to the point where if an iMac came in the door, we could pretty much just go ahead and order a processor to replace it, though a couple times the replacement was faulty as well! Anyway, back to the returning of parts, we were billed over $10000 I think for non-returned parts. My co-worker was fired. I know for a fact that those parts were returned. I tracked them, kept thorough records. My boss at the time did not believe that Apple was at fault after Apple talked with him. I think after a while though he saw a pattern and closed the service department entirely (and that's where my story of service ends :-(). My hunch is that Apple looks at how much business service providers are doing and charges them based on that somehow. Perhaps it is just some sort of fraud going on in Laguana Beach, or perhaps their accounting department just needs a complete overhaul. Your thoughts?

[guerro]

To those of you who seem to think Apple is screwing all retailers, you are wrong. The only resellers that are pissed at Apple and the contract Apple offered are those resellers that are close to Apple stores. These resellers are pissed because customers are going to have a tremendously better shopping experience at an Apple store and wonder why the hell they ever went to that crummy reseller to begin with. Lets face it, most resellers don't have the image and the style to their stores like they should. Most are just hole-in-the-wall shops in crappy parts of town. Who wants to go to a store thats crappy looking and have to possibly fight your way in and shoot your way out? I dont know why the resellers are complaining anyway. They make very little if any money on hardware sales. The real money is in service, warranty work and accessories. You would think the resellers would be happy to have that burden lifted off of them. I think the ideal shop would be a warranty repair, service and accessories store. And if you wanted you could sell used machines.

But then again, I could be wrong :rolleyes:

[nero007]

How many people actually buy from the small time resellers anyway? Just curious. Hey that should be a MacPoll!

[jlambert]

Originally posted by guerro
To those of you who seem to think Apple is screwing all retailers, you are wrong. The only resellers that are pissed at Apple and the contract Apple offered are those resellers that are close to Apple stores. These resellers are pissed because customers are going to have a tremendously better shopping experience at an Apple store and wonder why the hell they ever went to that crummy reseller to begin with. Lets face it, most resellers don't have the image and the style to their stores like they should. Most are just hole-in-the-wall shops in crappy parts of town. Who wants to go to a store thats crappy looking and have to possibly fight your way in and shoot your way out? I dont know why the resellers are complaining anyway. They make very little if any money on hardware sales. The real money is in service, warranty work and accessories. You would think the resellers would be happy to have that burden lifted off of them. I think the ideal shop would be a warranty repair, service and accessories store. And if you wanted you could sell used machines.

But then again, I could be wrong :rolleyes:

Amen!

[MacQuest]

Of the many people I know who have switched to Macs over the past year, they all have said that they made that decision by engaging knowledgable staff at the Apple Store.

They admitted that although they had seen Macs in the larger computer stores [Fry's, MicroCenter] they had never inquired about them. Not only because of the distractions posed by all the other stuff in the store, but mainly because the employees, more often than not, are frickin' idiots in regards to most everything in the store. They're just paid name badges.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this view is shared by pretty much everyone I know and it's not limited to computer knowledge. I have, in 10 years met 2 people in the Mac section of a Microcenter that were worthy of being there. It's not worth it. I've actually been steered away from Macs because the generic MicroCenter employee in that section could not answer my questions which I've always known the answer to. Just testing them.

Just because these stores had Mac sections, doesn't mean that the part-time commission based teenager who happened to have been scheduled to work in the Mac section knows anything about Macs. I hate asking for help at these places for anything, let alone asking for some meaningful insight as to why I should buy a Mac over a Windows computer.

This is why Apple has started placing their own employees, or at least Apple certified employees, in CompUSA's Mac sections.

MISREPRESENTATION at these mammoth computer stores has hurt Apple more than their occasional sales have helped. I say, cut these idiots off.

I do hope that the smaller, and often very knowledgable individual resellers, do not become collateral damage though.:(

Keep only the people and outlets worthy of representing Apple and Macintosh computers in the loop. Knowledgable individual resellers, chains and franchises with Apple certified/Apple direct staff, keep building Apple Stores, and maintain the Apple Store online.

[TheCat]

Originally posted by nero007
How many people actually buy from the small time resellers anyway? Just curious. Hey that should be a MacPoll!

we didn't!
From the Apple UK store, it would have costs us around an extra 60/70 pounds to get the same 700mhz iBook (with the max 640mb ram) - so shopped at the likes of GHC and Computer Warehouse that both offered the same model cheaper:-)

Applestore needs to revamp their pricing structure, esp when it comes to the extras you can slap in - like ram!

Shame, as i'd love to have shopped directly from apple...

[Panda Genma]

There are a lot of resellers that do quite well. Hardware sales in states without Apple Stores, and even with them, are big business. About every decent sized town has their own Mac store, and all the mac users for that town go there or shop out of MacMall. Here in NC, there is an Apple Store in Durham, but it seems to be more of an advertisment than a sales place. They do have good deals on refurbished items, though. At any rate, service actually seems to be hurting resellers across the board, according to my ex-boss and friend who owns one of Apple's top ten resellers. That is why he closed the service department and does only sales. He refers service to a local Apple authorized service center, which does only service. I like the local dealers. They are (generally) very friendly and will talk to you realistically about what Apple and their developers are doing. They will tell you about product cycles and when new PowerMacs or iBooks are due. They read these sights and get inside tips from their Apple insiders. Local resellers are vital to the mac community. Do you want to only hear crap from Apple about how you should buy a high end PowerMac today when it will be the low end tomorrow? Also, resellers are more flexible about their pricing. Apple won't give you any leeway about that. I refer all my friends to my local reseller, and because they know me, they get a discount. Would Apple do that? I'm inclined to think not.

[The Shadow]

Heh there MacQuest, good to hear from you again dude!

Originally posted by MacQuest
...MISREPRESENTATION at these mammoth computer stores has hurt Apple more than their occasional sales have helped. I say, cut these idiots off...

I do hope that the smaller, and often very knowledgable individual resellers, do not become collateral damage though.:(

Keep only the people and outlets worthy of representing Apple and Macintosh computers in the loop...

Funny, how in my country, we mainly only get specialist Apple resellers that have nearly all fitted their shops out to look like smaller versions of the Apple Stores. For example, the most numerous chain is called Next Byte.

They're really good stores. I'd never buy from Apple Online, or from one of the very rare (here) stores that sell electronics and Apple (They never have much stock anyway).

There's a very strong culture here of "support your local reseller". Along those lines, it's also good that in the Australian MacWorld magazine, they have a regular one pager by an "anonymous" reseller. Speaks volumes that the column is anonymous though doesn't it?

[maxterpiece]

Originally posted by guerro
To those of you who seem to think Apple is screwing all retailers, you are wrong. The only resellers that are pissed at Apple and the contract Apple offered are those resellers that are close to Apple stores. These resellers are pissed because customers are going to have a tremendously better shopping experience at an Apple store and wonder why the hell they ever went to that crummy reseller to begin with. Lets face it, most resellers don't have the image and the style to their stores like they should. Most are just hole-in-the-wall shops in crappy parts of town. Who wants to go to a store thats crappy looking and have to possibly fight your way in and shoot your way out? I dont know why the resellers are complaining anyway. They make very little if any money on hardware sales. The real money is in service, warranty work and accessories. You would think the resellers would be happy to have that burden lifted off of them. I think the ideal shop would be a warranty repair, service and accessories store. And if you wanted you could sell used machines.

But then again, I could be wrong :rolleyes:

I agree with you that a lot of these stores are small and unnecessary because they are near Apple stores, but Dell and Target are different. Dell and Target provide an awareness of Apple products to a crowd that is very unlikely to see or consider Apple products. Buy.com, too, does this. A typical, uninformed internet shopper is likely to end up at buy.com, when s/he decides to buy an MP3 player and types that into Buy.com's search tab, it is very important that the iPod shows up. If it does, the customer might remember advertisements s/he's seen in magazines or on TV for the iPod and maybe take an interest. This customer is not a customer that would walk into the Apple store off the street. It is not a customer who would surf over to Apple's website to check out their latest offerings. It is a customer that Apple has lost. The same goes for the Target shopper, who goes to target to buy some typical everyday things, and might breeze by an iPod and say, "Oh, that's cool looking! What does it do?" We all know once they discover what it does, they'll want one. Dell, perhaps most importantly, legitimized the iPod to a PC buyer who might see Apple products as outlandish and extravagant. If this PC user did buy and iPod, they would have the opportunity to experience a small part of Apple's innovation (in contrast to their PC lifestyle), and maybe a convert would be born. Apple should not be so arrogant as to think that they can take care of everything themselves. At some point they are going to have to rely on other companies (be they Adobe or Target) to provide a key aspect to the Apple world.

Max

[j_maddison]

This is in reference to the post about pc's being oranges and Apple macs being apples :D

Mate I understand what your saying, but that is a very myopic and slightly nescient way of looking at things. We as mac users see it like that, but new consumers wont. They see computer and computer that i dont know alot about and have a fear over purchasing. Bottom line is your average, non business, consumer will use a pc in exactly the same way they would use a mac. So to say they are poles apart is a bit of a strange statement to make. I dont use my mac in any different way to the way i would use a pc if i was stupid enough to buy one. I like my mac because it does everything a pc can do only simpler, better and with less hastle. We need to stop thinking about the mac community as a closed community, and recognise that for apple to grow we need to facilitate an enviroment where mac's are not just seen as a graphics tool. I personally dont do any digital editing, graphics work, or for that matter care that my mac can do anything to do with DTP, and neither does your average consumer. paradigm shift people, macs are great little machines that need a bit more juice to be competitive again and should be aimed at the average consumer as well as Apples current customer base.

jason

[valypan]

Hey everyone! :)
I live in Denmark and many of the so-called Apple authorized sellers know NOTHING about Apple! They only have a couple of Apple computers standing there, but often they do not even know how to operate them!
:confused: The only true help i received when I switched from windows to mac, came from the Apple Store , the Apple phone line operators and a good Apple retail store here in Denmark.
living in Denmark I am really glad Apple sells macs through its own Apple Store, otherwise I would have probably been at loss when switching :( I really hope Apple sorts out the real competent retailers from the bad ones. Retailers are necessary for people who want to see the macs upclose (no Apple Stores here in Europe...) and to hear some supposedly unbiased opinions of people who seel both macs and windows. So I am all for more good retail stores, which at least over here can peacefully coexist with the online Apple Store :):D

[fixyourthinking]

I posted at length articles when the topic of the originator of this lawsuit (MacAdam) came up on Maccentral.

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/02/03/dealers/

There were a lot of posts with many dissatisfied customers. There was also a link in those posts to litigation against MacAdam and his (Tom Santos) responses that he acknowledged were his own. Mr. Santos, MacAdam's owner, completely degraded the buyer and on top of that used poor grammar and coarse language. (I'm not talking about common mispellings< or fragments; but poor communication skills with nonsensical wording)

Chat forums are different because they are typed fast and sometimes emotionally. He responded to a lawsuit the same way you'd respond if you were losing in a debate. (sales and service are not debateable)

Most of the dealers who either didn't sign or joined the lawsuit are poor resellers. I encourage you to read the story on Maccentral where the majority of posts (not a single one positive) say that the store is dirty, prices high, service bad, and etc etc.

I also realize the internet can bring out your worst critics, but didn't Best Buy and Sears DESERVE to have their Mac contracts taken away? Did you like seeing Macs junked up or on the bottom shelves? What about Circuit City? I did Apple Rep work for 4 years. In one Circuit City I saw a LARGE flying ant colony in a Ruby iMac DV! Amazing as that was; it still worked. I alerted the management that the iMac DV near the door had an ant colony in it. They said they know and thought it was cool. MacAdam supposedly has several dogs and customers complain that dog hair is EVERYWHERE and store is just dirty. Is this who we want representing Apple?

Further, it couldn't be more obvious that a lot of resellers (possibly the one from the lawsuit) are posting here.

My message to you is: no matter what the rules, if you don't like them, don't sell Apple. You are making it harder and harder for people like myself to become authorized. I have started the foundation on my retail store, I want to do it the right way. Will I have problems? Sure. Will I work those problems out? Yes, immediately.

I spoke to MacAdam on the phone and I have personally visited the store. It's easy to see why he's filing this lawsuit. He's the kind of person that sues. The kind that files a lawsuit against Mcdonald's for making him fat. He's not a customer person, he's a MacAdam person. (MacAdam person= poor accounting and accountibility, poor communication skills, and a general lack of creativity and drive for business)

Another warning to "the Apple Policy sucks" posters: do you want people like this getting their information from Rumor sites? Do you want your Apple Specialist recommending you the latest greatest and having cash flow, but more importantly, work flow problems as a result? The new policy is trying to weed out resellers that have PROBLEMS. They are tough rules and I don't like them personally, but I know that some resellers who know how to do things right, Other World Computing, Small Dog, etc are able to bend the rules often!

I have not been successful because I have sold new, latest, greatest. I have been successful because of my detailed knowledge, understanding of my customers needs, and their productivity. If a product hasn't been availible to me when promised by Apple, I was upset, but instead of whining, costing Apple & myself litigation time and money, I either upgraded the customer's current setup, transitioned them slowly to the new system (and making even more money doing it that way) and I ALSO waited for the bugs to work out. You are a complete idiot to buy a business machine that is brand new! What if it has problems? Usually all 1st generation units have initial problems that are fixed by firmware or a revision.

I never complain if Apple doesn't have a machine, "on time" - because those sales mean NOTHING to my bottom line and to my customers who have been taught to be penny wise and POUND wise!

I don't doubt that there are some problems with Apple and billing. I have never had such problems but I know the local CompUSA has. I also don't think the employees that apple hires for their retail stores are all hired to "the image of the company" (See Atlanta GA store, mohawks & mild IQ Apple Genius) But I do think Apple has the right to ask excellence and peaceful arbitration/mediation of all it's customers (customers = individuals & resellers)

[Trimix]

I am happy to have online access to the macstore and their people on the free helpline are really worth their money. I would never buy from a reseller.
Why should I if I can go direct ?
The big boxes are delivered to my doorstep and the service does not end there.
I went to a reseller here in Zurich and it was not an experience to remember.
Next day I bought via the net.
And yes I am a switcher.

[jamilecrire]

Originally posted by jlambert
One thing everyone is missing by making comparisons to PC manufactures is the fact that yes...they would die if they only ran there own stores, but that is because people would just by a different branded PC.

Apple is apple, its the only place that makes macs. So if you want a mac then your going to get it on their website or at one of their stores which will soon be everywhere.

Think of the PC market as an Orange and Apple as well, Apples. you cant compare them.

Apple has no competitors therefore YES they can survive doing this. If you want a mac you'll get it. Keeping everything in their stores allows them to keep tight control of their products. If they want to know how many iPods are still out there before they make an update they would know easily. If they are all at different retailers they have no control over it. It's not like apple can log onto best buys inventory control and see it.

It's a very smart move.

The problem is not too many people want a Mac. 3-4% could be 5-6% if apple worked with their resellers instead of against them.

[iJon]

Originally posted by guerro
To those of you who seem to think Apple is screwing all retailers, you are wrong. The only resellers that are pissed at Apple and the contract Apple offered are those resellers that are close to Apple stores. These resellers are pissed because customers are going to have a tremendously better shopping experience at an Apple store and wonder why the hell they ever went to that crummy reseller to begin with. Lets face it, most resellers don't have the image and the style to their stores like they should. Most are just hole-in-the-wall shops in crappy parts of town. Who wants to go to a store thats crappy looking and have to possibly fight your way in and shoot your way out? I dont know why the resellers are complaining anyway. They make very little if any money on hardware sales. The real money is in service, warranty work and accessories. You would think the resellers would be happy to have that burden lifted off of them. I think the ideal shop would be a warranty repair, service and accessories store. And if you wanted you could sell used machines.

But then again, I could be wrong :rolleyes:
yeah you are wrong, just because your town has crap resellers doesnt mean they all are. there are many fields were an apple store cant even compete with resellers. so please think before you say all resellers are crap because obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

iJon

[fixyourthinking]

The problem is not too many people want a Mac. 3-4% could be 5-6% if apple worked with their resellers instead of against them


The problem isn't Apple working with resellers. It's resellers working with Apple.

Any reseller that DEPENDS on warranty repair or new sales as revenue is going to be out of business soon. Ever notice how the Apple store has things like inventive promos (Jaguar launch) or classes? That's what's called; draw. That's what makes money, is draw. I have close to 20 different revenue streams for my Apple Business. All Apple related.

What the article fails to mention is Apple's counterclaim, particularly against one of the plaintiffs; for overbilling and false billing. I know for a fact (from a customer's litigation) our local CompUSA bills for parts and labor that don't/didn't use (bills to Apple for under warranty compensation)

I also wish everyone would get the facts straight: A)Sales figures of 3% - 4% are per quarter - there is an installed base of 9% -11% of ALL computers that are Macs. A new Mac user does not a channel sale make. Apple only (legally it's all they can report as well) indicates channel sales. What about eBay, gray market, used, refurbs. Mac users aren't just chunking their Macs or rebuilding them like PC users do. They are adding to the base.

[iJon]

Originally posted by Panda Genma
There are a lot of resellers that do quite well. Hardware sales in states without Apple Stores, and even with them, are big business. About every decent sized town has their own Mac store, and all the mac users for that town go there or shop out of MacMall. Here in NC, there is an Apple Store in Durham, but it seems to be more of an advertisment than a sales place. They do have good deals on refurbished items, though. At any rate, service actually seems to be hurting resellers across the board, according to my ex-boss and friend who owns one of Apple's top ten resellers. That is why he closed the service department and does only sales. He refers service to a local Apple authorized service center, which does only service. I like the local dealers. They are (generally) very friendly and will talk to you realistically about what Apple and their developers are doing. They will tell you about product cycles and when new PowerMacs or iBooks are due. They read these sights and get inside tips from their Apple insiders. Local resellers are vital to the mac community. Do you want to only hear crap from Apple about how you should buy a high end PowerMac today when it will be the low end tomorrow? Also, resellers are more flexible about their pricing. Apple won't give you any leeway about that. I refer all my friends to my local reseller, and because they know me, they get a discount. Would Apple do that? I'm inclined to think not.
thank you, some people have had bad experiences with resellers and just bad mouth them. sur some places have macs but never know anything about them, but you gotta remember that there are many places that are apple specialists and they perform very well and all their staff is very informed on everything from apple.

iJon

[amarch@mdcc.edu]

:( Apple became greedy in 1984 and lost out to Microsoft and they are repeating the same mistake again. They have destabilised my confidence in the manufacturer of a superior product and whereas I was going to purchase a complete Macintosh video editing system I have lost all hope that the platform will become stabilised. I will now turn over to the dark side where assinine decisions are more infrequent and at least there are far more choices which will more than adequately meet my needs. Jobs srewewd up major once, and his arrogance and egotism has shown up once more. It is so dammed frustrating! Goodbye Macintosh! By the way I've been a Macintosh user since 1984 and have never like the dark side!

[Bengt77]

Here in the Netherlands nearly all the stores that sell Macs (well, except for the Dixons and Primafoon shops) are purely Mac-places. You could say they ARE Apple Stores, only not run by Apple people. I know some stores in Woerden, Haarlem and Den Haag that are really excellent.

If Apple would ever pull something like this in the Netherlands, it would be a VERY BAD THING (and probably a very BIG thing too, but then in the wrong way). Not that I think Apple would actually pull some stunt like that here in Europe; I just wanted you all to know that the Dutch Apple stores are really excellent! Aren't there any specialized Apple selling, but indepentent, stores in the US? I can't believe that, until Apple decided to open their own Stores, the only places you could get Macs were the big warehouses?!...

Anyway, I love 'our' Apple stores!

[hmmfe]

Originally posted by moby1
I had a legal counsel advise to accept these types of agreements with ridiculous restrictions on litigation simply because such silly restrictions ("i.e. no jury trial") never hold up before a judge.


I'd have to say you received horrible legal advice or simply did not understand the advice. The 14th amendment right to trial by jury is alienable. Jury-waiver clauses have a high standard of consent attached to them, but they are generally legal. Also, the 14th amendment does not protect action in equity (e.g. specific performance and injunction).

I doubt any attorney (at least any good attorney) would ever say such a thing as it is obviously false. A quick search in any law library (heck, any library) would reveal that.

I am not inclined to debate the merits of the clause nor am I trying to personally attack you. This is just a disclaimer to your above statement just in case anyone reading it believed it to be good legal advice.

[NavyIntel007]

Apple needs to stop hating on their resellers because if the ball drops on Apple's own retail stores... they'll be just like Gateway.

[kenohki]

Originally posted by iJon
yeah you are wrong, just because your town has crap resellers doesnt mean they all are. there are many fields were an apple store cant even compete with resellers. so please think before you say all resellers are crap because obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

iJon

I agree that not all are crap. I've been to several wonderful Macintosh specialty stores in Louisville, KY. I was amazed at the amount of knowledge and the fit and finish of the stores. However, on the flip side, here in Indiana, my town had two Macintosh dealers (besides Sears, Best Buy, and Circuit City which all stunk as well). My mother is also a Mac user and went to one looking for an iMac. She told the manager of the store that she was interested in an iMac and he derided the platform and tried to sell her a PC. And the other dealer, well they only sell to corporate clients (no retail, though they did sell me a burned copy of Mac OS X 10.1). Their store is a joke. Actually both dealers are a joke. They are dirty, cluttered, and look like the buildings should be condemned. And those are the only faces Apple is presenting in a town of about 300,000 people. Nice, really nice.

Now I don't think that destroying a resellers business on purpose is a good idea. But, I'm pretty sure some of the resellers in question are like the ones in my town and are just ticked because people like to shop in a clean, well-lit, professional environment.

[etoiles]

Originally posted by jlambert

Think of the PC market as an Orange and Apple as well, Apples. you cant compare them.


Yes, you cannot compare a lemon with an Apple...:p

[Le Big Mac]

Originally posted by The Shadow
But it's just not strategically sound. Apple should consider themselves in the business of making innovative hardware and software, that's where their smarts are, not in running retail shops.

It would be suicide for Apple to try to do a Dell, using the Apple shop format alone. Of course, they got this idea from Sony, and it's a good idea to raise profile and strengthen the brand. But let's face it, Sony have many other retail channels. Sony would sink quicker than HMAS Hood (10 minutes from the time it engaged Bismarck - if your'e wondering :) ) if it had to rely on Sony shops alone.

There are many professional retailers out there who know their business. Apple really needs to suck up to these guys, instead they've always given them a hard time. I've never understood that.

I agree that Apple would be better off focusing attention on their products. But they must have come to the conclusion that retailers were not adequately promoting their products. That's why they've opened Apple stores. They function not only as retail outlets but as "free" advertising. The idea is to draw people in to show them how cool Macs are, whereas at Best Buy or Target, people go straight to PCs because that's what they have at work. And the BestBuy pimply teenagers don't do a good job at telling folks a Mac would be much better for their needs (if it is).

Once Apple decides it wants to be its own primary retailer, you can be sure it will start playing hardball with retailers. Either they get with the Apple program or they're gone. Classic business strategy that makes a company look bad in the short run.

[guerro]

Originally posted by iJon
yeah you are wrong, just because your town has crap resellers doesnt mean they all are. there are many fields were an apple store cant even compete with resellers. so please think before you say all resellers are crap because obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

iJon

Well, I haven't had the oppurtunity to travel the entire country to visit every reseller location. I live in the central valley in CA, near the mother ship. Here, where I am, reseller locations are crap. As the previous poster stated, MacAdam is a crap hole. I went there twice and it was crap. I think most people are the same as me and can't visit every reseller location in the country. We have to develop an opinion of resellers based on those in our area. Well, in my area, resellers are CRAP. Sorry, but that's just the way customer perception is. I never said all resellers are crap. What I did say is,"The only resellers that are pissed at Apple and the contract Apple offered are those resellers that are close to Apple stores." This is why Tom is pissed. He sees the Apple stores as a threat to take customers away from his landfill/dump of a store. Once a person sees they can shop in a clean, new, ORGANIZED, brightly lit store they will wonder why they ever went to MacAdam and stores like it.

But then again, what the hell do I know ? I'm not the almighty iJon amd I?? :rolleyes:

[Timbles]

All I can say is that ever since I started using computers I have always used a pc even now that Im doing a BSc(Hons) computing everything is MS oriented. In our main computer block its all pc's with 1 poor iMac stuck in the corner. When all my friends were going out and buying MS laptops I had already had my heart set on a mac, I had had enough of MS and I was prepared to go out and buy a Mac without even knowing anything about them. Of course I was DAMN glad I did as now all my friends are jealous of my iBook and they all want to get Macs when they graduate (I often say to them while they drool over my iBook that I will never buy a pc ever again).

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that more and more people are getting peeed off with MS and want something that works and are willing to take a chance on something new like mac, so I really dont think that if Apples products are not in all major stores it wont make a difference. BECAUSE ONCE U HAVE TRIED APPLE THERE IS NO GOING BACK TO THE DARKSIDE!!!!!

PEACE OUT

[areyouwishing]

i think its funny how apple can charge 1499 for an ibook, and then at warehouse.com you can get the same machine for 1494 and it comes with free memory(384mb), free printer, and a free carrying case.

People who don't care about any of the other resellers, get a life, please. They are the reason apple is still alive. What if everyone jumped ship in the 96-97 era? How would apple have sold a mac?

Apple tries to play bully to the little fries in any way it can because it has a complex because of the lost the PC war, and it doesn't want to have to compete with anyone.

[timbloom]

I used to work doing both sales and service for a Specialist, and I can say that the personal relationships they had with large businesses, small business, and recurring customers was great. I would like to see you walk into an Apple Store a year after you buy your machine, talk with the person you bought it from and actually have them remember you. I would be surprised even to see an employee still working there other than possibly management.

The store I worked at has had a relationship with Apple longer than most, and they are still treated like they don't matter. Given, there are stores out there that should not ever be selling macs. But this store was one that I had been going to since before I could even read, having them go out of business because the company that they have promoted for so long decided it wanted a larger chunk, would be devastating to me. With the exception of only one employee, we were just plain mac junkies, who just happened to help others.

But you can not keep the doors open just because you love doing the job, there needs to be more money.

I really could go on and on and on, but my point is: A small locally-owned store is usually a much more pleasurable experience for somebody. You are not just an account or a name on a check. Just like the employee should not be just a cardboard cutout set there to push computers on you. This is probably the thing that separates mac dealers from the used car dealership that apple is trying to push in their own retail stores.

[mozez]

why do people all think the apple stores are great? i have been to several, and they don't know jack accept what is on the card that lists it's features. i asked one girl about the cache in a notebook and she didn't even know what cache was.i like to go in and test their knowledge about alot of things like games on the macs, upgrade possiblities, bus speeds and ram speeds and other such things, as well as OS X questions. they can usually answer one in about 10 questions and that answer is usually wrong. the apple store looks nice but never ask an actual question that you can't find the answer off the little white card next to the machine. i wonder how many even use a mac sometimes. resellers are usually mac lovers who have had and used macs for years, they all the ins and outs of a mac, what's new on them, why? because it's their business to know. they've repaired macs all the time, so they know true specs on them. they are the people you go to to ask questions, not the apple store, the apple store is just a big advertisement in my eyes, a good one i'll give you, but nothing further.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by FelixDerKater
Apple loves to screw themselves. Everytime things start looking up they somehow find a way to mess it up. With all of the charisma and innovation he brings, Jobs has no sense of how to run a business.

Yea jsut as dumb as that Dell guy and all the retail outlets Dell has :rolleyes:

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Abstract
Apple may be a year away from losing Adobe and their resellers. Wow, that takes quiet an impressive string of dumb business decisions --- one after another for Apple.

Apple stores exist for the sole purpose of advertising. Their stores, as well as their presence in busy urban centres, serve as an advertisement for their product.

Apple needs to stop treating their stores as their most important revenue source, and treat it as an interactive Apple amusement park to allow potential customers to enjoy their Apple experience, and either purchase their product right there at the Apple store itself, or allow the customer to make a decision at a later date, and purchase one at a nearby reseller at a Target store when the time is right, as Jaredbbauer had suggested. To compete with your own resellers is to cannabalize your own sales. Why would you want to do that?

What it is hard for a manufacturer like Apple to understand and accept is that the computer itself (and its associated OS upgrades, warranties and service agreements) is only a small piece in a more important puzzle. The user actually buys a computer to run SOFTWARE. And very few buy it to run primarilly APPLE software no matter how COOL or occasionally useful it is.

A large number of PC's are purchased so run PARTICULAR APPLICATIONS all the time like Quark, or RIP to a printer, or Photoshop, or media applications or even a web browser.

A relatively small number of computers actually are used in practice with a wide range of software and most of those are home machines. Price sensitive consumers.

If it could ever happen that Apple transitions to offering Macs as a good CPU for single purpose applications they would sell alot more CPU's. Yes they would have alot more bells and whistles than is needed by the application, but that is the case for PC's now as well. Buy a swiss army knife and use it ONLY for the tweesers.

This sort of market requires fairly wide distribution and Apple Computer has the low price point, fully capable computers to serve these markets well including the iMac, iBook and the Powerbook 12.

What is missing is a decided loss of "control freak" and openness to the fact that some users and their uses of the computers are not INSANELY GREAT like the computers allegedly are.

Rocketman

http://v-serv.com/-upload/avatar.jpg

[mustang_dvs]

Originally posted by The Shadow
Sony would sink quicker than HMAS Hood (10 minutes from the time it engaged Bismarck - if your'e wondering :) )

The Hood was an Australian ship? I always thought it was British (HMS)... ;)

As for the topic, I think that both sides have their hand in these failures. Some resellers absolutely suck, most shuck and jive over warranty service and a few are shining examples of retail-y goodness. Apple is not the Beast of Redmond, they are not evil, they are running a business, in which Apple comes first -- sometimes thats a bad thing for their business partners.

[RBR2]

is to squeeze out all other retail outlets as they grow the Apple Store model. They have already done this to existing resellers in areas where the company stores have been opened. A fine thank you to people who have kept Apple alive over the years.

Apple probably will not treat customers much better.

[JGowan]

I called my local Apple store and was peeved at APPLE when the associate there said they had two 17" PBs in stock... I was peeved because I pre-ordered mine from MacMall in mid-Feb and they still hadn't sent me mine. Seemed to me that Apple should get the other stores product first.

Then I called MacMall only to find out that they've had 400 PBs for a while now and the holdup is getting the free 512MB ram chip into them all. I wouldn't care if they just charged the obligatory $30 install charge and just shipped all the crap to me... I'll put my on ram chip in.

Dang, MACMALL... get with it!

[jlambert]

A lot of people are saying I souldnt have made the comparison of Apples to Oranges..but let me tell you. I'm a soon to be switcher. Why? because microsofts licensing agreements and future copy protection built directly into the next version of windows is TOO MUCH. I want to own a computer when I buy it, not have it under control of some company.

I think apple is doing the right thing with these stores. Weeding out bad resellers and setting up Apple stores to attract new customers. When the next version of windows hits in 2k4 people will start getting pissed about not being able to control the OS they bought.

I still say, GO APPLE!

[iJon]

Originally posted by guerro
Well, I haven't had the oppurtunity to travel the entire country to visit every reseller location. I live in the central valley in CA, near the mother ship. Here, where I am, reseller locations are crap. As the previous poster stated, MacAdam in a crap hole. I went there twice and it was crap. I think most people are the same as me and can't visit every reseller location in the country. We have to develop an opinion of resellers based on those in our area. Well, in my area, resellers are CRAP. Sorry, but that's just the way customer perception is. I never said all resellers are crap. What I did say is,"The only resellers that are pissed at Apple and the contract Apple offered are those resellers that are close to Apple stores." This is why Tom is pissed. He sees the Apple stores as a threat to take customers away from his landfill/dump of a store. Once a person sees they can shop in a clean, new, ORGANIZED, brightly lit store they will wonder why they ever went to MacAdam and stores like it.

But then again, what the hell do I know ? I'm not the almighty iJon amd I?? :rolleyes:
i was jut making sure, i wasnt trying to make you feel stupid or mad or something. im sorry your resellers are like that, i just wanted to make sure you didnt think all resellers are like that, didnt intend for you to give me the rolleyes.

iJon

[daRAT]

Originally posted by nero007
How many people actually buy from the small time resellers anyway? Just curious. Hey that should be a MacPoll!

I do. A local Apple retailer/service place. I'd rather talk to a non-brain washed Apple person.

[guerro]

Originally posted by iJon
i was jut making sure, i wasnt trying to make you feel stupid or mad or something. im sorry your resellers are like that, i just wanted to make sure you didnt think all resellers are like that, didnt intend for you to give me the rolleyes.

iJon

That is just the point I was trying to make. Not all resellers are crap. And, NOT ALL RESELLERS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT APPLE. A few crap stores get pissed and all of a sudden everyone runs to conclusions and thinks all Apple resellers are pissed. It's simply not the case.

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by jlambert
One thing everyone is missing by making comparisons to PC manufactures is the fact that yes...they would die if they only ran there own stores, but that is because people would just by a different branded PC.

Apple is apple, its the only place that makes macs. So if you want a mac then your going to get it on their website or at one of their stores which will soon be everywhere.

Think of the PC market as an Orange and Apple as well, Apples. you cant compare them.

Apple has no competitors therefore YES they can survive doing this. If you want a mac you'll get it. Keeping everything in their stores allows them to keep tight control of their products. If they want to know how many iPods are still out there before they make an update they would know easily. If they are all at different retailers they have no control over it. It's not like apple can log onto best buys inventory control and see it.

It's a very smart move.

I agree to some extent - however - Apple probably isn't going to win many more new customers! It seems like most people (not us) buy PC's because they need a computer - or want to get on the internet, or whatever... A computer is a computer - they really don't put much thought into the purchase... Time and time again, friends, relatives, etc go out and buy some piece of crap without a second thought (even after my advice to get a Mac, which really p*sses me off!), and I end up having to fix it for them at some point...

ALSO - I have an Apple store in my city, however, Comp USA is closer - and they actually have a really cool Mac section (unlike others, say in Burbank CA, maybe they fixed it!)... It's important for consumers to be wowed by the product, in person! Even some PC's look cool nowadays (Alienware), however, nobody matches Apple's elegance of design - it's apparant just by seeing it in person! It's far more impressive...

[jlambert]

I know its better to see it in person and thats what I'm saying. Their plan may not look good now but just wait until they get stores EVERYWHERE. Businees takes time. Starbucks didnt just go and put a store on every corner. They build up slowly until they are on every corner.

[iJon]

Originally posted by jlambert
I know its better to see it in person and thats what I'm saying. Their plan may not look good now but just wait until they get stores EVERYWHERE. Businees takes time. Starbucks didnt just go and put a store on every corner. They build up slowly until they are on every corner.
apple wont put a apple store everywhere, they put way to much money into these stores for them to have one everywhere. computers are a whole lot more expensive than coffee, good point made though. thats just my opinion.

iJon

[jlambert]

lmao, I didnt mean it to THAT extreme, I just mean at least one in every major city. for instance, I live near sacramento and there isnt a apple store within a 2hr drive of me.

[iJon]

Originally posted by jlambert
lmao, I didnt mean it to THAT extreme, I just mean at least one in every major city. for instance, I live near sacramento and there isnt a apple store within a 2hr drive of me.
oh ok, i get you know, that makes more sense.

iJon

[redeye]

DUMB
This very thing put Radius belly up.
Salesmen refused to sell their stuff.