[PS3] Lair: 4 Gigs for 1 level. Can't be done on 360.

[P-S-3]

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921050154537-000.jpg


Wow, looks like more and more developers are taking use of Blu-ray. Lair will be in 1080p Native and take 4 gigs per level! Developer says it couldn't be done on 360.


"IGN: What advantage does Blu-ray afford you now? Everyone talks about how great the extra storage space is but are you actually using it for Lair?

Eggebrecht: The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data. We are using every ounce of that due to streaming of our textures. Sure you could chop them all down to tiny sizes and we would fit, but then again, it would not be the same game. In addition to all the textures and geometry, we also do have video on the disc, and all of that is in native 1080p resolution. Thanks to Blu-Ray we don't need to worry about that and can still fit the whole game on a single disk. "


"IGN: Quick Fanboy wars question -- Could Lair be done under its current spec on the Xbox 360? If so, why go with the PlayStation 3 "only" instead of going cross-platform?

Eggebrecht: Lair in its current form couldn't be done on 360. We are using large amounts of Cell's SPUs for all of our geometry, landscape, simulations, animations, even troop AI."


More of the Interview:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p5.html

[twistedlegato]

4GB for one level..... i hope they are big, and those graphics must rule!

[2nyRiggz]

Okay but I'm sure if MS dished out some money they could chop it up and everything would be fine...well they did say in its present state...Unless the games are giving extra "stuff" for using BR then I see no need for them to mention how much space it occupies.




Bless

[sikkinixx]

uh oh....this could get ugly *braces for fanboy flame wars*

[FleurDuMal]

If that picture above is an actual screenshot, I think I might wet myself :o

[P-S-3]

If that picture above is an actual screenshot, I think I might wet myself :o
It is...

[MacRumorUser]

What i find more telling is

we also do have video on the disc, and all of that is in native 1080p resolution. Thanks to Blu-Ray we don't need to worry about that and can still fit the whole game on a single disk.

So a lot of that is 1080p video. Which makes you wonder how much of that level is 4gb as I watched the full video and there was a hell of a lot of cutscenes.

Please note because the video is 1080p does not mean the gameplay sections will be. They may be 720p and simply upscaled like 1080i, and the video could be the only thing on it thats at 1080p

So your statement P-S-3 about it being 1080p native 'maybe' misleading, but it certainly looks interesting.

It wasnt on my list of to get ps3 titles, so i'll wait and see what it's like when it surfaces.

[Mackilroy]

Resistance: Fall of Man currently takes 22 gigabytes of space. I wonder if Sony is paying them to say 'couldn't be done on 360' ;)

[ictiosapiens]

Do those 4 gb represent all the textures and so on, or just cutscenes and such? If its textures and such, don't all those need to be loaded into memory? If so, won't the loading times be a tad long?

[raggedjimmi]

It is...

Wrong. But you may be right.

The initial batches of screenshots were "enhanced", but then some other shots were leaked and the game looked much less. Or am I mistaking it for another game? I remember seeing Factor 5's name and jagged dragons not too long ago.

Oh and that claim is wrong. It's not 4gb for 1 level. It's 4gb for the engine, the graphics and the 1 level. Eggebrecht even said himself that "the demo is 4gb". So there we have it.
What I also find interesting, I don't think we'll be seeing many downloaded PS3 demos. 4gb for a demo? Well there we go for half the UK's internet connection that should take us about a few days of full speed downloading.
HELLO LOAD TIMES!

Why are Factor 5 so hit and miss? Turrican, Rogue Leader. but then they had Looney Tunes games and now this Panzer Dragoon and Rogue Leaders bastard lovechild. hmm.

[MacRumorUser]

At the end of the day that's all this & RFOM claim are

A reaction to the 360. No longer can we claim 1080p exclusive, so the
only difference we can latch onto is the BR storage space.

As I said that 4gb includes a lot of 1080p video. Just download the big gameplay demos on IGN Insider.

When a game like Lost Odyssey looks better than Lair, and
Gears of War - every bit looks as good if not better graphically than Resistance Fall of Man, then you have to ask yourself are these claims really accurate ?

After all if developers are able to squeeze just as good or better graphics onto a DVD it makes you wonder why on earth these developers need this massive space.

In the end it's all going to come down to 1080p video streams. Bung a 720p and 480p video of the cutscene onto their too and the space you need suddenly jumps up experientially.

PS3 will be great, and have some Killer games. But the fact that the size of the games is taking more precident over the quality of the content or gameplay is ominous.

Sony we know it's got BluRay - were 'over it' so stop trying to justify it by making these radical claims that in practice are total BS. With only 512 mb of ram, shared between CPU & GPU there's no way in reality you can be squeezing gig's worth of textures per level.

Even if you could stream that amount of data, remember disc speed is only 1 or 2 x with BluRay so it would still bottleneck the system.

So please lets move on, give us awesome games and gameplay. Big sizes DO NOT A GOOD GAME make.......

[sikkinixx]

i think the game sound pretty good jimmi :p stop hating so much jeez

and MRU, to be fair, Resistance IS a launch game (even if it is a year later) and GoW has had all the finalized system stuff for quite some time now. Plus, aren't they a much bigger studio that Insomniac is (ie. more money to spend, bigger staff, more this, more that?) Not to mention developers seem to be saying the learning curve on the PS3 is a lot higher than on the 360 so you can't expect gold on day 1.

[raggedjimmi]

If the game was something more than a rip off of 2 very good games then yes, I wouldn't hate. But what have I seen? a few screenshots. If these people want any other kind of reaction then a few trailers or new screenshots would be nice, along with some gameplay details. oh and 4gb for 1 level, if true then yey! A nice 6-10 level game would be so awesome!!!!!

Panzer Dragoon meets Rogue Leader. I'd like some originality with a £60 game please.

[MacRumorUser]

Jimmi that's not fair. You cant judge a book by its cover, nor a game from a few trailer videos and screenshots.

Yes it may be an amalgamation of 2 excellent games, but heck there are other games than just those that you could say inspired it such as Drakan games.

Besides there may be some awesome gameplay in the game and it may be highly entertaining, we'll have to wait and see before condemning it before its even finished or out.

[sikkinixx]

jimmi is this was on Wii you would be so stoked your head would spin :p

on a side note, does anyone else know GoW is only supposed to be 10 hours long? :( after hearing about 100 hour Zelda i was hoping more next-gen games would offer more than a weekend of gameplay

[Mackilroy]

i think the game sound pretty good jimmi :p stop hating so much jeez

and MRU, to be fair, Resistance IS a launch game (even if it is a year later) and GoW has had all the finalized system stuff for quite some time now. Plus, aren't they a much bigger studio that Insomniac is (ie. more money to spend, bigger staff, more this, more that?) Not to mention developers seem to be saying the learning curve on the PS3 is a lot higher than on the 360 so you can't expect gold on day 1.

He ain't hatin', he's telling it like it is. All Jimmi said was that he doubted the PS3 was as uber as it claimed to be. ;)

And perhaps not, but with the PS3 fans claiming it's so much better then the competition, shouldn't we therefore be seeing stuff that's correspondingly better as well? And when we don't, or it's fudged to look like it is shouldn't we be suspicious?

[sikkinixx]

He ain't hatin', he's telling it like it is. All Jimmi said was that he doubted the PS3 was as uber as it claimed to be. ;)



oh i dont care if he is hating on the PS3, its the popular think to whine about nowadays(even if it does deserve a lot of it) i mean him hating on this game despite reading an article and looking at a few screen shots, gotta give things a chance...

[Mackilroy]

oh i dont care if he is hating on the PS3, i mean him hating on this game despite reading an article and looking at a few screen shots, gotta give things a chance...

Ah. Okeydokey then.

I'll give the game a chance if there's a playable demo. I greatly enjoyed Rogue Leader, so if I ever pick up a PS3 hopefully this'll have a demo.

[MacRumorUser]

on a side note, does anyone else know GoW is only supposed to be 10 hours long? :( after hearing about 100 hour Zelda i was hoping more next-gen games would offer more than a weekend of gameplay

Unfair comparison

To be honest 10 hours of an all out actioner shooter is about as long as you could possibly drag the premise before you began getting uber repetative.

An RPG is much slower, apparently a lot of the new Zelda's time length is in crossing the ever expanding and gorgeous hyrule. Then there's all the dialogue etc. that you have to plow through; and running back and forth to people to accomplish fetch and go tasks before you even get to a proper dungeon.

[sikkinixx]

^ I guess... I'm not saying i expected GoW to be 100 hours long, just when i hear 100 hours, then 10 hours...just seems so small you know? I get the feeling that developers can geta way with making games short/not adding a ton of replay value into single player because they can say "oh! but our multiplayer section is amazing!" *coughhalo2cough* well it may be, but I don't like multiplayer online, trash talking 11 year olds (who are freakishly good) and cheap tactics that rule online gaming turns me off :p

[risc]

Lair is a great looking game but lets be honest it is being published & distributed by SCEA and it was never coming out on the 360! Could it be done on the 360 well I'm pretty sure SCEA would never say so, and considering the OPs nick well yeah can you say fanboy?

Like everything with the PS3 though I'll wait until I've had a chance to actually see 1 before I make up my mind.

[MacRumorUser]

trash talking 11 year olds (who are freakishly good) and cheap tactics that rule online gaming turns me off :p

Tell me about it. Unfortunetly with all the consoles going online it looks like its going to be harder to avoid those annoying kiddies - screaming , singing and just being annoying period.

I must say though, thanks to Xbox Live I have met loads of irish gamers I never would have done so before, and made a lot of offline friends through it, as well as online. We even have nights out every couple of months so all the people who play on live can get together for a drink and the 'craic' .....

I really love this side of Xbox 360 and to me it has been the defining part of this new generation for me. I hope PS3 & Wii will add to that...

[sikkinixx]

we should do a MR's XBL sometime, pick a game, get some of the guys/gals on and let the trash talking begin. Only probably is so many of you 'blokes' are from the UK, that those of us in the USA/Canada won't understand a word you say :D

[MacRumorUser]

As long as I talk like a typical leprechaun 'Top o the morning to you Sikkinixx, holy mary mother of god, ye not getting your hands on me lucky charms' and such. and all the uk guys and girls speak like Eliza DoLittle and Dick Van Dyke, you should be fine :D :D :D :D

[sikkinixx]

As long as I talk like a typical leprechaun 'Top o the morning to you Sikkinixx, holy mary mother of god' and such. and all the uk guys and girls speak like Eliza DoLittle and Dick Van Dyke, you should be fine :D :D :D :D


sweet! would you really?! :D

[Mackilroy]

Indeed we would. ;) Or James Bond. :)

I'd be up for an MR XBL game. :)

[MacRumorUser]

Indeed we would. ;) Or James Bond. :)

I'd be up for an MR XBL game. :)

But it would have to be Sean Connery James Bond accent :D

[sikkinixx]

what about Pierce? he was better than sean ;) *ducks to avoid people throwing things at me*

[2nyRiggz]

*snip*

Thats why you are hating...gezz now thats just not a good respond right there. Besides how many gigs it got the game looks awesome but until I see some more I will stay on the side lines.



Bless

[meepm00pmeep]

games will take up more & more space... it's inevitable... PS3 makes it better for the developers by giving them freedom from small storage restrictions of DVD's

[sikkinixx]

games will take up more & more space... it's inevitable... PS3 makes it better for the developers by giving them freedom from small storage restrictions of DVD's

no doubt, games used to fit on CD's 6 years ago, what about in 6 years from now? Still gonna fit on a 9GB disc? or will they need BD/HD-DVD discs for the extra room? Money says MS releases a HD-DVD equipped 360 a few years from now for game use. That or they just make Xbox 720 ;)

[Onizuka]

Again, here we go with the **** talk. 1 hour of Mpeg2 HiDef video= 13 Gigs. That's right, 13. And given that not many people other than Apple use H264 means that it's probably not compressed using that codec (which would bring it down to about 7.5 gigs)

Also, If they ARE NOT compressing the game files it'll make for faster load times given that there won't be any need for the processor to decompress.

[ReanimationLP]

Load times wont be so horrendous. Heres why :

Its not compressed, so it doesnt have to load it to RAM then decompress the files needed beforehand.
Theres only 512MB of RAM availble for everything, then the hard disk. Chances are how it will work is it will load from the Blu-Ray disc what it needs to start the level, then while the player is playing the level, the Blu-Ray disc is working behind the scenes to help push the rest of the level onto the SATA hard disk drive, which is then used for constantly streaming the next small bits of the level needed to render the entire level, without loading screens/slowdowns.

[raggedjimmi]

Thats why you are hating...gezz now thats just not a good respond right there. Besides how many gigs it got the game looks awesome but until I see some more I will stay on the side lines.



Bless

You must have missed the bit where I explained why I'm "hating" on it. To reitterate -

It's a rip game. It's a cut and shut job. Take the gameplay, the GUI the style of Rogue Leader and replace Star Wars planes and jazz with Panzer Dragoon style creatures. Of course it will get high ratings based off that alone, but personally I'm never a fan of these kind of games. Alien Hominid was just a re-sprited Metal Slug yet it was very popular, arguably more popular than Metal Slug in the far far west to young gamers. Regardless of what console it came out it, I would have qualms about this.

And sikkinixx - if you want to troll try a little harder. There are loads of Wii games that I'd rather use as frisbees than play. Wing Island, that Tony Hawk game, Sonic , Call of Duty 3, that Marvel game and Super Monkey Ball. Oh and you probably haven't read the DS games that have let me down; Starfox, Mario Hoops. I have doubts about Yoshis Island 2 as well (how on earth can you improve on the original?).
Try harder!

[MacRumorUser]

Load times wont be so horrendous. Heres why :

Its not compressed, so it doesnt have to load it to RAM then decompress the files needed beforehand.
Theres only 512MB of RAM availble for everything, then the hard disk. Chances are how it will work is it will load from the Blu-Ray disc what it needs to start the level, then while the player is playing the level, the Blu-Ray disc is working behind the scenes to help push the rest of the level onto the SATA hard disk drive, which is then used for constantly streaming the next small bits of the level needed to render the entire level, without loading screens/slowdowns.


Arr that's pretty nippy.

Will Sony lock a portion of the Hard Drive then like M$ do so that developers know they hae this constant space ? It would make sense.

[Archmagination]

That whole article just made me excited about the PS3 again.. it completely debunks a lot of those rumors about the PS3.

1st off.. they said that Sony made the decision on having a motion/tilt sensitive controller in 2004..(In part thanks to them) so that means it wasn't a cheap ripoff of the Wii controller.

They also said that the final PS3 spec was everything Sony promised them in 2004 when they started Lair. That also debunk the myth that the Cell processor was too hot and was causing Sony problems.

[sikkinixx]

And sikkinixx - if you want to troll try a little harder.

its not trolling my friend, its a cheap shot :D

[MistaBungle]

I wonder how badly they stressed in the pamphlet for the PS3 to use the phrase 'this can't be done on the 360'. I have the upmost respect for Hideo Kojima but even he says about an aspect in MGS4 "can only be done on the PS3". They really are trying to cut each other up pretty good, M$ and $ony that is.

[Haoshiro]

This really seems like mostly PR to me. Plus it's Insomniac, which is owned by Sony. So this is obviously a biased studio.

As others have said, this is 4GB for the demo. Which was likely thrown together with little care for space, and used loads of uncompressed data.

Anyway, Hideo Kojima has indeed said something about "only on PS3" (which I believe was in regards to Snake's camo tech), but had previously stated on his own blog that MGS4 could easily be done on 360. *shrugs*

Keep expecting more and more FUD coming out of Sony the closer it gets to launch, in regards to both Wii and 360.

[MacRumorUser]

^ totaly agree with you. It's the only angle Sony can distinguish itself with the competition anymore, so they will continue to encourage developers to make these wild claims and fill their discs full of unnecessary space filling junk.

Just wish theyd say more about the 'gameplay' and the games, rather than the size of the disc.. It's not a great testiment to your software if the only thing your plugging is it's capacity and not its quality. :o

[Haoshiro]

Agreed, but maybe they just don't have anything to say...

Someone had mentioned GoW only being 10 hours long, and I agree that is pretty good for an action title. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was about that long and I thought it worked out great.

Honestly, If a game like Halo had been much shorter then it was, there would probably have been far less complaints about it (and "repetitive levels"). By keeping a game shorter, rather then dragging it out, you can end up keeping the game much more fresh throughout the entire experience.

It's kind of like those 3 hour movies that would have made excellent 1 hour flicks, at least if it's short and great it leaves you wanting more, rather then wishing you could get your time back! heh.

[takao]

Someone had mentioned GoW only being 10 hours long, and I agree that is pretty good for an action title. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was about that long and I thought it worked out great.

i only hope they improve gears of war gameplay wise, so far from what i have seen it might be on the risk of getting repetitive as well ... sure a 3 minute gameplay video seems awesome and fun but after like 15 minutes i was awefully reminded of doom3

[Haoshiro]

i only hope they improve gears of war gameplay wise, so far from what i have seen it might be on the risk of getting repetitive as well ... sure a 3 minute gameplay video seems awesome and fun but after like 15 minutes i was awefully reminded of doom3

I don't know, it seems solid to me. Most shooter gameplay could be described as "aim and shoot", so it's ultimately simply anyway, regardless of the game.

Personally I am most interested in the game for it's co-op. I believe it will have very refined controls and gameplay, toss in some friends and that equals great fun to me. :) I mean, I enjoyed Halo more then most, heck even Halo 2, but for me the co-op and multiplayer is what kept me playing.

[sikkinixx]

Honestly, If a game like Halo had been much shorter then it was, there would probably have been far less complaints about it (and "repetitive levels"). By keeping a game shorter, rather then dragging it out, you can end up keeping the game much more fresh throughout the entire experience.


Halo 1 or Halo 2? If you mean Halo 2, I think the biggest complaint with Halo 2 (aside from the cliff hanger ending and the crappy texture loading) was that it was over too quick

[Haoshiro]

Halo 1 or Halo 2? If you mean Halo 2, I think the biggest complaint with Halo 2 (aside from the cliff hanger ending and the crappy texture loading) was that it was over too quick

Specifically Halo 1 in terms of longevity. Not that the length was particularly bad, but for what they had in terms of level design it probably would have remained more interesting if the game was simply shorter, requiring less time/repetition in areas.

[Abulia]

jimmi is this was on Wii you would be so stoked your head would spin :p
No ****. The double-standard held here by the Wii crowd is just amazing.

[Haoshiro]

No ****. The double-standard held here by the Wii crowd is just amazing.

Oh please, neither of you can say what jimmi would or would not think in some theoretical sitatuation! Just stop that right now.

Personally I wasn't that impressed with Lair either. I was especially disappointed to see the dragon land on the bridge and be seemingly untouched by the hordes of soldiers. Sure, the rider of that dragon can leap from the dragon onto another and kill it in a single blow, but somehow the dragon he is riding just romps through a bunch of soldiers. That's kind of ruined it for me... maybe the dragon could be hurt, and the AI of the soldiers is just horrid... either way that don't impress me much.

Now I would be impressed if the Wii was pumping out these graphics, they seem beyond what I'd expect out of it personally.

[raggedjimmi]

No ****. The double-standard held here by the Wii crowd is just amazing.

oh for the love of christ. There seems to be a convenient level of blindness running through here. Why am I hating this game, why would I hate it if it was on the Wii? It's the same ****ing game I played on the Cube but with dragons and different story. It's a poor bastardisation of 2 legendary last gen games. DS, Wii, PS3 whatever I'd rather play what I have now. Say they take Mario World and add Super Ninja Black Mage Spy Pirates. OHMYGOD IT MUST BE BETTER THEY ARE SUPER NINJA BLACK MAGE SPY PIRATES. Oh and they upped the resolution too.

[Onizuka]

oh for the love of christ. There seems to be a convenient level of blindness running through here. Why am I hating this game, why would I hate it if it was on the Wii? It's the same ****ing game I played on the Cube but with dragons and different story. It's a poor bastardisation of 2 legendary last gen games. DS, Wii, PS3 whatever I'd rather play what I have now. Say they take Mario World and add Super Ninja Black Mage Spy Pirates. OHMYGOD IT MUST BE BETTER THEY ARE SUPER NINJA BLACK MAGE SPY PIRATES. Oh and they upped the resolution too.

To be fair, it can't be bastardized if the the parent companies involved in the originals made this one.

I think your comparison of dragons versus an Xwing Fighter are really bad, but that's just me. Plus, lest we forget that really old Nintendo top to bottom scroller that was dragons? The concept isn't new at all, but the game looks great.

[Abulia]

Oh please, neither of you can say what jimmi would or would not think in some theoretical sitatuation! Just stop that right now.
I wasn't referring to jimmi, only the Wii crowd in general. So you can just stop that (picking a fight) right now.

Refresher for anyone?

Pre-Wii: "Emulating old games on a console is crap!"
Post-Wii: "Play old N64 games? Genius!" :rolleyes:

Pre-Wii: "We don't need online play."
Post-Wii: "Online play is great...and because it's free, it's BETTER!"

Pre-Wii: "Xbox 1.5 graphics aren't all that hot."
Post-Wii: "Wii doesn't do HD? Well, it's not ALL about the graphics, you know!"

Pre-Wii: "The 360 is nothing more than a slightly upgraded Xbox."
Post-Wii: "The Wii is only slightly more powerful than the Cube because the Cube was THAT AWESOME!"

The Nintendo crowd sure likes to have a case of selective memory when it comes to talking smack about the other consoles. Now someone is dissing Lair because it brings nothing new to the table and recycled gameplay? This is from the company with HOW MANY Mario and Zelda titles pooped out over the years? Please.

I'm just saying the hypocrisy wouldn't be so tough to swallow if they'd stop the smell some of the stuff they've been shoveling.

[Haoshiro]

Abulia:

While I have heard most of those "quotes" from various people, I can't say I've heard them all from any one specific person.

Anyone can put together contradictory quotes, but without some sort of evidence that it came from the same source it's rather pointless, don't you think?

Also, if you aren't replying regarding a single person, then you might not have your post be a reply to one that is. ;)

[raggedjimmi]

Which is why the regurgitated versions didn't do well (Majora's Mask? Sunshine? Windwaker?) but the ones that did bring something new were celebrated (OoT, Mario 64, Metroid Prime, gyro-sword fighting TP).

Also, Abulia, about the Xbox 1.5/Cube-Wii thing. The Wii has never been heralded as a hardware breakthrough. Nintendo said it was a machine not about the power, but about the input. Whereas Microsoft flaunted their GPU and spoke wildly about how powerful etc it was.

Online play - the Xbox came out when Broadband impact here was so, so minimal. 2001/2? I remember talking to a guy at school about his super fast 128kbps ISDN connection and playing Tony Hawk GBA. Now broadband is faster, though still not good enough which is why I'm not entirely fussed about it. It's about broadband penetration and speed. Hell if I'll be able to play a 360 with the headset on my 512kbps wireless connection.

Emulation? I'm against illegal emulation so I've had little to no possibility in playing old games. a legal way would be excellent and a great way for me to catch the games that never hit Europe.

[Abulia]

While I have heard most of those "quotes" from various people, I can't say I've heard them all from any one specific person.
Good thing I didn't say they were from one specifc person. I clearly said "the Wii crowd in general." ;)

Anyone can put together contradictory quotes, but without some sort of evidence that it came from the same source it's rather pointless, don't you think?Yet you just said above that you've heard those "quotes" yourself.... So if it's commonly accepted as true, can't we just move on from citations?

:)

[Haoshiro]

Online play - the Xbox came out when Broadband impact here was so, so minimal. 2001/2? I remember talking to a guy at school about his super fast 128kbps ISDN connection and playing Tony Hawk GBA. Now broadband is faster, though still not good enough which is why I'm not entirely fussed about it. It's about broadband penetration and speed. Hell if I'll be able to play a 360 with the headset on my 512kbps wireless connection.

That's too bad, I'm not even in a big area and it's easy to get a >1Mb/sec connection, 5Mbps is not at all uncommon...

[Haoshiro]

Good thing I didn't say they were from one specifc person. I clearly said "the Wii crowd in general." ;)

Yet you just said above that you've heard those "quotes" yourself.... So if it's commonly accepted as true, can't we just move on from citations?

:)

Heh, point was that I said I haven't heard those quotes from the same person - so suggesting some theoretical "crowd" is being contradictory to themselves doesn't make much sense. Maybe you could pick out a person or two on the forums and quote contradictions regarding Wii from their posts, I just can't say I've personally seen that nor understand why someone would post it.

Even if you are not explicitly singling out someone, you did a fine job of lumping him in to the "Wii crowd in general" and then just tossing your remarks on the "crowd" you just put the person in.... I don't really see how that is so different.... **sigh**

[Abulia]

It's different 'cause jimmi knows I got nothin' but love for him. :D

[GFLPraxis]

I wasn't referring to jimmi, only the Wii crowd in general. So you can just stop that (picking a fight) right now.

Refresher for anyone?

Pre-Wii: "Emulating old games on a console is crap!"
Post-Wii: "Play old N64 games? Genius!" :rolleyes:


People thought emulating old games on a console is crap? When? I'm not sure what you're referring to on this one.


Pre-Wii: "We don't need online play."
Post-Wii: "Online play is great...and because it's free, it's BETTER!"

I think this was Nintendo's statements, not the fans (Nintendo said that online play wasn't necessary, then all of a sudden started hyping it like nuts on the DS). At least not me. I've always said I wouldn't PAY for online play, not that I didn't want it- I'm spoiled by totally free online play in ALL my PC titles.


Pre-Wii: "Xbox 1.5 graphics aren't all that hot."
Post-Wii: "Wii doesn't do HD? Well, it's not ALL about the graphics, you know!"

Valid point here, but it's important to note that the XBox 360's selling point is ENTIRELY graphics, while the Wii's selling point is ENTIRELY it's controller.

If the XBox 360 had AMAZING graphics and a CRUDDY controller, we'd forgive it.

If the Wii had cruddy graphics and an amazing controller, we'd forgive it.

Vice versa, not so much- if the Wii's controller is crap, the system is crap. If the XBox 360's graphics are crap, the system is crap.

However, a few of us said from the beginning (alongside whining about the weak graphics) that second-gen XBox 360 titles would be a massive improvement, and they were. You are correct that there were a bunch of whiny fanboys (on both PS3 and Wii side) that continually whined about the graphics though.



Pre-Wii: "The 360 is nothing more than a slightly upgraded Xbox."
Post-Wii: "The Wii is only slightly more powerful than the Cube because the Cube was THAT AWESOME!"


Well, really, the XBox 360 is an XBox with a new CPU and GPU. The Wii is an overclocked GameCube with a radically new control scheme. The experience playing a 360 is the same as playing an XBox, it just looks better.

DISCLAIMER: I'm NOT defending the fanboys; I'm explaining where this fanboy statement comes from. The difference between the XBox and XBox 360 graphics-wise, with the new generation of games, is staggering.


I agree with you on a lot of the points you make- I'm mainly explaining the ideas behind the statements, so don't think I'm arguing with you.



The Nintendo crowd sure likes to have a case of selective memory when it comes to talking smack about the other consoles. Now someone is dissing Lair because it brings nothing new to the table and recycled gameplay? This is from the company with HOW MANY Mario and Zelda titles pooped out over the years? Please.

Woah woah woah on this one. Different scenarios. Lair uses a NEW NAME and follows the same recycled gameplay.

Mario and Zelda use the SAME NAME...but don't recycle gameplay. How many Mario titles have the same game engine? Unless you count Lost Levels, I can't think of ANY. Every Mario platformer and sports game plays ENTIRELY different...Compare Super Mario Sunshine to Mario 64 to Yoshi's Island to Mario World to Mario Bros 3.

The ones that DID use the same engine were usually complained about. Majora's Mask, for example...and I never even finished Metroid Prime 2, it felt like Metroid Prime only gloomier and with longer, more frustrating searching segments.

[Abulia]

People thought emulating old games on a console is crap? When? I'm not sure what you're referring to on this one.
Wow, I'm surprised. That one was actually from you, GFLPraxis. Remember back when the 360 was rumor and how MS was going to do software emulation? You lamblasted it. Constantly. Emulation was the dumbest thing EVAR! :)

Fast forward to the Wii and Nintendo's brilliance in providing emulation of all their old titles.
If the XBox 360 had AMAZING graphics and a CRUDDY controller, we'd forgive it.
"Wii'd forgive it?" ;)

Out of curiosity, since you used "we," are you lumping yourself in with the crowd? :)
If the Wii had cruddy graphics and an amazing controller, we'd forgive it.
The Wii could blow up, kill small puppies, and shoot laser death rays and you all would forgive it. :)
I agree with you on a lot of the points you make- I'm mainly explaining the ideas behind the statements, so don't think I'm arguing with you.
Oh, no worries.

[takao]

Wow, I'm surprised. That one was actually from you, GFLPraxis. Remember back when the 360 was rumor and how MS was going to do software emulation? You lamblasted it. Constantly. Emulation was the dumbest thing EVAR! :)

except that he meant "software emulation for backwards compatibility with the xbox is the dumbest thing EVAR!"

if the Wii would be providing BC with gamecube with emulation it would have been equally stupid

BC with the generation before other than through hardware design always will lead to problems


i'm out of this thread

[Onizuka]

The Wii could blow up, kill small puppies, and shoot laser death rays and you all would forgive it. :)

Please note that killing puppies is unacceptable, and in doing so you would be a horrible, horrible, unforgiveable monster.

[raggedjimmi]

It'd be interesting to see how high you would have to drop each of the next gen consoles to kill a puppy.

[GFLPraxis]

Wow, I'm surprised. That one was actually from you, GFLPraxis. Remember back when the 360 was rumor and how MS was going to do software emulation? You lamblasted it. Constantly. Emulation was the dumbest thing EVAR! :)

Oh, that? That's a different subject altogether. I said that backwards compatability with the previous system was a dumb idea, and I was right. I said that I didn't think it was even possible to do by normal methods, because you can't use three PowerPC processors (that suck at integer and rock at floating point) to emulate one x86 processor (that is actually pretty good at integer calculations) with different GPU architecture.

I also predicted that Microsoft would end up patching games with PowerPC binaries, because I didn't think there was any way they could get a general purpose emulator- the architecture difference was just too much and the 360 isn't so vastly more powerful that it can emulate the XBox with ease.

I ended up being right. You have to download patches (sorry, "emulation profiles") for each individual game you run, only a small number are compatible (compared to the total library), and some are buggy (Ninja Gaiden anyone?).

I NEVER said emulation for old games was a stupid idea. I never complained about classic games on XBox Live Arcade. If the Wii had switched to an Intel chip and tried to emulate a GameCube via backwards compatability I would have said the same thing.



Fast forward to the Wii and Nintendo's brilliance in providing emulation of all their old titles.
"Wii'd forgive it?" ;)

Old titles is quite different though. Emulating a 4 MHz SNES vs a 733 MHz XBox is a different matter altogether.

Out of curiosity, since you used "we," are you lumping yourself in with the crowd? :)


Yeah (the crowd forgiving the 360). The XBox 360 turned out much nicer than I expected, with graphics on par with the PS3. If Microsoft were to get Sony's old franchises that I enjoyed (mainly, Square Enix titles like Kingdom Hearts) I might actually consider the 360 over a PS3. The graphics were better than expected, it succeeds on its selling point. And as far as "normal" controllers go, the 360's is now on my top three favorites regular wireless controller list (Wavebird, Logitech, and XBox 360 controller)

Sadly, I have no HDTV so most of the advantages are lost for me, which is why I'm not buying a system with "next-gen graphics" for a while (until price goes down) because I don't need to spend money on a $400-$600 console for SD.


The Wii could blow up, kill small puppies, and shoot laser death rays and you all would forgive it. :)


If it shot laser death rays, I'd buy three :D

[Abulia]

It'd be interesting to see how high you would have to drop each of the next gen consoles to kill a puppy.
Well, with the orginal Xbox not far!

Anyone remember the unpacking instructions? It had a picture with a slash ("NO!") through it of placing the Xbox too high as a child crushing danger! :D

Ahh, good times. :)

[milo]

No longer can we claim 1080p exclusive, so the
only difference we can latch onto is the BR storage space.

I thought the 360 only upscaled to 1080? Its outbut maxes at 720p and they just scale it for 1080 output. So they can't really claim true 1080, can they?

[Abulia]

I thought the 360 only upscaled to 1080? Its outbut maxes at 720p and they just scale it for 1080 output. So they can't really claim true 1080, can they?
Depends on the developer and the assets. Yes, it can output 1080i native data or it can scale 720p output.

It's a lot like the PS3; sure it can do 1080i/1080p but the developers have to build the game for that output from day one.

[MacRumorUser]

I thought the 360 only upscaled to 1080? Its outbut maxes at 720p and they just scale it for 1080 output. So they can't really claim true 1080, can they?

But NEW games WILL be able to take advantage of it if they choose to. But like PS3 most developers will probably stick to 720p to maximize frame rate etc.. and let the machines do the the upscaling.

[sikkinixx]

feel the hate brewing inside young skywalker mwa hahahaha (um... this is in reference to the heated discussion above btw :))


*tears of happiness* yay my government cheque came... $513.60!!! MWA HAHAHA up yours Gouvernement du Canada, try to cheat ME on MY tax return huh? Well f*** you! I now have TP and RFoM paid off, and have $975 in the bank AND 24$ on an EB card so $999 AND the 20GB PS3 and a Wii (assuming its $299.99 canadian) comes to $960.47 after 13% tax. I can now stop saving. Yes, yes god yes you do shine upon me today *Big Ass Grin* *ahem* sorry...just had to let it all out

[2nyRiggz]

It'd be interesting to see how high you would have to drop each of the next gen consoles to kill a puppy.

The Wii would break like a puzzle if dropped on a puppy....but if you drop a 2G nano:eek: ...poor pup.

2ny out...5000


Bless

[MacRumorUser]

All the 'supposed' sensible ones arguing semantics why? :rolleyes:


Your all nutz :rolleyes:


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2476/nutzrj6.jpg

[Onizuka]

All the 'supposed' sensible ones arguing semantics why? :rolleyes:


Your all nutz :rolleyes:


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2476/nutzrj6.jpg

I would actually prefer it if you made me a Cashew. Thank yooooou.

[MacRumorUser]

I would actually prefer it if you made me a Cashew. Thank yooooou.


Sheesh, Nutz with egos now :rolleyes: :p

Well here you go
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/214/nutzbc8.jpg
:D :) :D

[Onizuka]

THAT'S what I'm talking about, MRU! Cashews all the way! WOOT!

Cashew>Macadamia

[sikkinixx]

thats not very nice MRU, im allgeric to nuts, seriously :p the pecan that I am will kill me !

[Haoshiro]

Sheesh, Nutz with egos now :rolleyes: :p

Well here you go
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/214/nutzbc8.jpg
:D :) :D

Speaking of that, man, at least make me a Pecan or cashew... I just hate Macadamia nuts... :rolleyes:

[MacRumorUser]

thats not very nice MRU, im allgeric to nuts, seriously :p the pecan that I am will kill me !

That's prophetic irony for you :p :D would you prefer to be a raisin ? ;)

Speaking of that, man, at least make me a Pecan or cashew... I just hate Macadamia nuts... :rolleyes:


Seriously lads you all need to get out a bit more ;) :D :D :D

What have I started ?

[sikkinixx]

That's prophetic irony for you :p :D would you prefer to be a raisin ? ;)

*sob* this is just like high school all over! :p

[raggedjimmi]

I don't like nuts :(

[MacRumorUser]

I don't like nuts :(

That was my aunts reason for becoming a nun ;) :p



filthy innuendo implied

[raggedjimmi]

filthy innuendo received!

[2nyRiggz]

Well MRU at least you got my color right....green:(



Bless

[zap2]

Refresher for anyone?

Pre-Wii: "Emulating old games on a console is crap!"
Post-Wii: "Play old N64 games? Genius!" :rolleyes:

Pre-Wii: "We don't need online play."
Post-Wii: "Online play is great...and because it's free, it's BETTER!"

Pre-Wii: "Xbox 1.5 graphics aren't all that hot."
Post-Wii: "Wii doesn't do HD? Well, it's not ALL about the graphics, you know!"

Pre-Wii: "The 360 is nothing more than a slightly upgraded Xbox."
Post-Wii: "The Wii is only slightly more powerful than the Cube because the Cube was THAT AWESOME!"
.

You can't sum up all Wii fans with a few statements.....I love online play, and was not happy the cube was lacking in it. I've also loved playing old games, so i've always been Pro emulator. I've never said the graphics are the 360 are bad, there are games that don't look great, but with good devs, the 360 can/is great.

And Wii is not only a bit more powerful then the cube for many reasons, not because the NGC was almost as good as it gets, it brings other new stuff to the table. The 360 is really a smaller upgrade then the Wii is from last gens....360 adds Graphics and new games, and on the low end model you lose the Harddrive.(also the Wireless Controller is only high end 360) The Wii brings free online play, old games(both of which I have always wanted) new way of playing, better graphics and new games.


Why do you assume you can know what all Nintendo fans thought in the past, and do now?

[MS bulldog]

4 gigs for one level?
can't be done on 360?
it must be good if that's the case.
should i mail my credit card to sony directly or is there some online place i can spend myself silly?

[Abulia]

You can't sum up all Wii fans with a few statements
Sure I can. Look above, I just did!

Why do you assume you can know what all Nintendo fans thought in the past, and do now?
Because I'm that good! :D

It only hurts because it's true. It's okay. You can admit it. :p

MacRumors users: Totally missing sarcasm and hyperbole since 1991!

[MacRumorUser]

MacRumors users: Totally missing sarcasm and hyperbole since 1991!

LOL! U sly dog ;) :D

[Mackilroy]

MacRumors users: Totally missing sarcasm and hyperbole since 1991!

Hahahahaha.

[Haoshiro]

Seriously lads you all need to get out a bit more ;) :D :D :D

I don't think "we" are the ones creating images to post in online forums to describe forum users in a thread... heh.

So who exactly needs to get out more? :rolleyes:

[MacRumorUser]

So who exactly needs to get out more? :rolleyes:

:p ;) :p

[MacRumorUser]

Load times wont be so horrendous. Heres why :

Its not compressed, so it doesnt have to load it to RAM then decompress the files needed beforehand.


This is a total misconception. I had a very good conversation on the phone last night to my cousin who works for a british software studio. I've mentioned them before with an inside scoop, say no more.. ;)

Anyway they are currently working on next gen titles on PS3 & Xbox 360

Conversation got round to this issue of compressed textures and loading times.

Firstly to clear things up.

COMPRESSED TEXTURES are not compressed as in a .zip or .dmg fashion. They are compressed in the same way as a jpg image is compressed to save space with varying degrees of compression strength in order to cut down size.

Therefore these are NOT decompressed like a zip file and hence they DO load quicker into the system and video ram faster as there is less data period.

Also like taking a photo jpg into say photoshop and re-saving at a higher compression, you can often compress and image significantly without causing any 'noticeable' degredation to the image quality and therefore to simply use un-compressed textures for the sake of doing so does not necesseraly offer better visual quality, but just wastes resources and creates massive file sizes for no discernable reason.

UNCOMPRESSED TEXTURES will take longer to load into ram regardless. My cousin thinks the claims from both Lair & RFOM are utter BS as they are currently working on a title that they have had to compress some textures in order to streamline loading even when using some of the virtual disk space offered by the HD. Loading and buffering the amount data from the blu-ray drive to the system, video ram and then stream constant buffer of data to the hard drive from the blu ray drive is not as simple as it sounds and will cause longer load times initially regardless.

Also there are issues with the speed in which ram buffers can be flushed especially considering the splitting of the ram between system & gpu. Yes they can access the system ram if the gpu is overloaded, but this causes other issues such as insufficiant ram to then drive the system with these extensive graphics at a high resolution and it is NOT a clean way of delievering peformance from the ps3.

Currently 'possession' loads faster on the Xbox 360 dev kits than it does on the ps3 dev kits. optimisations will be applied and suspect both will be pretty comparable with no real discernable loading difference in the end. But they are not using anywhere near as much data per level as games like LAIR are claiming and he finds their claims to be totally suspect, thinking the majority of this must be from the 1080p video and not from real game assets.

I Think that's everything he told me anyway.

[raggedjimmi]

plus even if the graphics were uncompressed they would still need to be moved from the disc which is going to be slow.
unless you said that in your big post MRU, I didn't read it all ;)

[takao]

thanks to MRU for writing what i was consider writing myself