Berlin Opera Cancels Mozart

[xsedrinam]

Berlin Opera Director, Kirsten Harms, defends the decision to cancel Mozart Opera Idomeneo (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5382554.stm) due to fear of religious retaliation. One scene in the opera has the king presenting the severed heads of Poseidon, Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha. Berlin Mayor, along with opera fans think it is a wrong decision claiming the freedom of expression and the arts should not be censured and curtailed because of fear.
"Our ideas about openness, tolerance and freedom must be lived out on the offensive," he told the Associated Press.

[zimv20]

i agree with the mayor.

[aquajet]

It might be prudent to not perform works from the likes of Copland and Bernstein and Barber and others as well. After all, we wouldn't want to offend anybody with gay music.

[xsedrinam]

Well, I still think Reginald Kenneth Dwight will be remembered as one of the great, prolific contemporary composers, though others may recognize him as Sir Elton Hercules John and remember him for thinking iPods are "silly". :)

I just wanted to present this thread as another integral part of the larger picture of how fear, intolerance and political correctness are the true terrorists which threaten our freedoms.

[Don't panic]

absolutely ridiculous.
it's 2006, not 1706. a director should be able to present his art as he pleases, and let the public decide if they like it or not (in a civilized way).

that said, how do budda jesus and mohammed got into a story set in ancient greece?

[xsedrinam]

absolutely ridiculous.
it's 2006, not 1706. a director should be able to present his art as he pleases, and let the public decide if they like it or not (in a civilized way).

that said, how do budda jesus and mohammed got into a story set in ancient greece?
Wondered that, myself. Musician's license? :) The synopsis of the story line is about Idomeneo's pact he makes with Neptune the god of the sea: in return for his own life he will sacrifice the first human being he encounters on the shore....probably some improvs within the sacrificial scene is my guess. A brilliant composer he was, no doubt.

[solvs]

Welcome to the Brave, er... Cowardly New World. The terrorists have won and we're more than happy to submit to them. Unless of course we're losing a war to them. Then we can never stop fighting, no matter how badly we're doing.

I'm saddened, but not surprised, and just waiting for it to happen here, ala that South Park episode.

[Queso]

Maybe they could have done something to mock the fundamentalists in a way they couldn't argue with, like replacing the head of Mohammed with Barney the Dinosaur. Cancelling the opera is an extreme way of getting round the problem.

[Agathon]

I don't think that the Islamic world is going to get in a tizzy about Mozart.

A lot of them like his music.

[Stampyhead]

I also agree that the opera should not be cancelled, however it's not Mozart's music or the opera's story itself that is causing problems, but the director's interpretation. I don't like the fact that the he is using Mozart to further is political agenda. Quoting from the CNN article:
Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against "any form of organized religion or its founders."
If the director would just leave his religious bias at home and let the opera be about the music we wouldn't have these problems. I personally don't care what he thinks about religion. Just because he is the director doesn't make the opera about him. It will always be for Mozart's music that people go to see his operas.

[KingYaba]

due to fear of religious retaliation.
Say it! Come on and say it! It's those people from the religion of peace aint it!?

[mactastic]

If the director would just leave his religious bias at home and let the opera be about the music we wouldn't have these problems. I personally don't care what he thinks about religion. Just because he is the director doesn't make the opera about him. It will always be for Mozart's music that people go to see his operas.
Hey, if the pope had only left his religious bias at home, he wouldn't be in trouble either, right?

[takao]

that self censorship is utter ridiculous ...

i guess this simply gonna end up as a big publicity stunt in the end since i have no doubt that they gonna restart it again after all protests

censoring out every controversial topic out of culture/art would just ruin it for everybody

[lord patton]

I don't think that the Islamic world is going to get in a tizzy about Mozart.

A lot of them like his music.

Yeah, next thing you know someone will suggest the "Islamic world" would explode over cartoons.

Preposterous!

[zap2]

Say it! Come on and say it! It's those people from the religion of peace aint it!?


Only them...I see all Christian taking this really great!


But ya, its crap that any religion is feared this much...

[hulugu]

Good to see the Gutless Wonder Brigade has managed to start a charter in Berlin.

The fall of the west apparently won't come at the hands of the Occulted Imam, but rather at the hands of cowards and idiots.

[lord patton]

Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans on Wednesday not to bow to fears of Islamic violence after a Berlin opera house canceled a Mozart work over concerns some scenes could enrage Muslims and pose a security risk.

"I think the cancellation was a mistake. I think self-censorship does not help us against people who want to practise violence in the name of Islam," she told reporters. "It makes no sense to retreat."

These are just words, but they sounds good. I hope the show goes on.

[Don't panic]

i think they will show it eventually, and they should (then let people boo it again (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aXxHFc11CD4U&refer=home)).

maybe it was -as Takao said- just a publicity stunt, but it drew attention to the issue from a different perspective, and it might actually work in favour of tolerance of other's ideas, even if they go against our "truths". Today, this applies especially to part of the muslim world, but not only (I'm thinking christian fundies). Maybe it's time for the believers to realize that their guy has big shoulders and can take a little abuse.

the interpretation however, is not anti-islam, it is anti-religion, but so is the play itself (though not so blatantly), which pits the response of civil society against the insane demands of blind religion.

the response of Poseidon (send out the sea monster and murder innocents), to idomeneo's failure to sacrifice his own son to him (an inhuman demand to begin with), is not different from what other equally abusive, mean and vindictive gods have 'done' (allegedly) in the past and they still 'do' in the present (at least according to the interpretation of some faithful -aids, 9/11, katrina, tsunami).

[Agathon]

Yeah, next thing you know someone will suggest the "Islamic world" would explode over cartoons.

Preposterous!

So there's no difference between a notoriously racist country (and Danes are notoriously racist, like it or not) publishing contemporary cartoons that are intended to rile up Muslims, and a 200 year old opera.

Muslims don't care about what Mozart said or did, but they might care if his music is going to be used to denigrate them, much as black people might care if the opera was done as a black and white minstrel show, or Jews care about some of Wagner's operas. Note how contemporary productions of Wagner go out of their way to deemphasize the anti-semitic parts of Wagner.

Get a clue. Ordinary Muslims are sick of being demonized by Westerners. How many movies have you seen in the last 20 years where the villains are Middle Eastern Muslims. If the same were done to blacks or Jews there would be an outcry. Most Westerners are simply too dumb or indoctrinated to realize how this stuff appears to Muslims. It's exactly the same as Western filmakers used to portray Asians. Decent people now realize that this was wrong. Muslims are right to complain if they are treated the same way.

[Agathon]

Good to see the Gutless Wonder Brigade has managed to start a charter in Berlin.

The fall of the west apparently won't come at the hands of the Occulted Imam, but rather at the hands of cowards and idiots.

Yes, we must struggle together to save the white race, brother.

Amen...

[lord patton]

Muslims don't care about what Mozart said or did, but they might care if his music is going to be used to denigrate them, much as black people might care if the opera was done as a black and white minstrel show, or Jews care about some of Wagner's operas...
that's not a good analogy, because this production was spreading around the disdain, not singling out Muslims.
Get a clue. Ordinary Muslims are sick of being demonized by Westerners.
So you're saying that had the show gone on, there would have been no security concerns, and no threats of violence would have occured?

In case you weren't paying attention, a couple weeks ago the pope suggested Islam has a history of spreading by the sword. The response wasn't to write letters to the editor—it was to burn churches and kill nuns.

And while no doubt that was a minority reaction, and I'm sure ordinary Muslims do resent being demonized, you can't seriously suggest there wouldn't have been a violent reaction (and that such a reaction would not come from the Christians and Buddhists, who were also "demonized" by this opera production).
How many movies have you seen in the last 20 years where the villains are Middle Eastern Muslims. If the same were done to blacks or Jews there would be an outcry.
Dude, do have any idea what kind of vitriol is spread about the Jews throughout the Islamic world? With very little outcry?

[mactastic]

Dude, do have any idea what kind of vitriol is spread about the Jews throughout the Islamic world? With very little outcry?
And that makes it OK how?

[Ugg]

Get a clue. Ordinary Muslims are sick of being demonized by Westerners. How many movies have you seen in the last 20 years where the villains are Middle Eastern Muslims. If the same were done to blacks or Jews there would be an outcry. Most Westerners are simply too dumb or indoctrinated to realize how this stuff appears to Muslims. It's exactly the same as Western filmakers used to portray Asians. Decent people now realize that this was wrong. Muslims are right to complain if they are treated the same way.

Where are the Muslim filmmakers who are willing to present a different perspective? Oh, that's right, they're all being censored by the mullahs and their repressive governments. What's the last book by a Muslim writer that dared to take on the status quo? Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie perhaps? Hmm, what happened to him, seems to me that he's still hiding from those who want to kill him? Theo Van Gogh was murdered for his willingness to take a critical yet unbiased look at Muslims in The Netherlands. Why should I go out of my way to defend the Muslim way of life when Muslim are unwilling to allow any degree of freedom of expression amongst themselves?

[lord patton]

And that makes it OK how?

makes what ok?:confused:

[Lyle]

makes what ok?:confused:Do you believe that if, in fact, vitriol about the Jews is being spread throughout the Islamic world, that that makes it OK for movies to regularly feature villains who are Middle-Eastern Muslims? Does one good stereotype deserve another?

[lord patton]

Do you believe that if, in fact, vitriol about the Jews is being spread throughout the Islamic world, that that makes it OK for movies to regularly feature villains who are Middle-Eastern Muslims? Does one good stereotype deserve another?

No. Someone claimed that the intolerance and denigration Muslims face would never be tolerated if it were directed at Jews. I disagreed. As evidence, in part, by state-written textbooks claiming Jews make Matza from the blood of Gentiles. For starters.

[it5five]

The opera might not be cancelled anymore, so long as there is adequate police protection:

NY Times Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/world/europe/28cnd-germany.html?ex=1317096000&en=a1e5ef7a832652c3&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

[xsedrinam]

The opera might not be cancelled anymore, so long as there is adequate police protection:

NY Times Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/world/europe/28cnd-germany.html?ex=1317096000&en=a1e5ef7a832652c3&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)
Hmm. A schon Sie (http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/arts/musReich.htm), second movement?

[beatsme]

So there's no difference between a notoriously racist country (and Danes are notoriously racist, like it or not) publishing contemporary cartoons that are intended to rile up Muslims, and a 200 year old opera.

Muslims don't care about what Mozart said or did, but they might care if his music is going to be used to denigrate them, much as black people might care if the opera was done as a black and white minstrel show, or Jews care about some of Wagner's operas. Note how contemporary productions of Wagner go out of their way to deemphasize the anti-semitic parts of Wagner.

Get a clue. Ordinary Muslims are sick of being demonized by Westerners. How many movies have you seen in the last 20 years where the villains are Middle Eastern Muslims. If the same were done to blacks or Jews there would be an outcry. Most Westerners are simply too dumb or indoctrinated to realize how this stuff appears to Muslims. It's exactly the same as Western filmakers used to portray Asians. Decent people now realize that this was wrong. Muslims are right to complain if they are treated the same way.

for what it's worth, Denmark was the only country to stand up to Nazi Germany and refuse to hand over it's Jews, especially Jews of foreign citizenship who had sought refuge there. If that's the kind of racism they practice in Denmark then it doesn't sound so bad to me.

[beatsme]

Yes, we must struggle together to save the white race, brother.

Amen...

we must struggle together to save our way of life, the one where we have free speech, free press, freedom of assembly...

...and freedom of religion, the freedom that Muslims in our society enjoy, too.

[Agathon]

for what it's worth, Denmark was the only country to stand up to Nazi Germany and refuse to hand over it's Jews, especially Jews of foreign citizenship who had sought refuge there. If that's the kind of racism they practice in Denmark then it doesn't sound so bad to me.

That was 60 years ago. Apparently, and according to friends who've lived there, the place is rife with it. Not the really bad KKK kind of racism, but just a general looking down upon others. Part of it seems to be that they think no-one else notices, and that might be right. Denmark is not usually newsworthy.

[Agathon]

No. Someone claimed that the intolerance and denigration Muslims face would never be tolerated if it were directed at Jews. I disagreed. As evidence, in part, by state-written textbooks claiming Jews make Matza from the blood of Gentiles. For starters.

Never be tolerated in Western countries.

If we are going to call them for their anti-semitism (and frankly, a lot of Arabs have good political reasons (i.e. Israel) to detest Jews, while people in Western countries do not), then call us on our endless anti-Islamic propaganda. What's the worst Jewish crime in the US? Bad situation comedies? Burned Bagels? Barbra Streisand?

While some of the more ridiculous Blood Libel stuff is going too far, it doesn't seem to me to be completely inexplicable to dislike Jews if you are being screwed over by a state that explicitly defines itself as Jewish.

[Agathon]

Where are the Muslim filmmakers who are willing to present a different perspective? Oh, that's right, they're all being censored by the mullahs and their repressive governments. What's the last book by a Muslim writer that dared to take on the status quo? Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie perhaps? Hmm, what happened to him, seems to me that he's still hiding from those who want to kill him? Theo Van Gogh was murdered for his willingness to take a critical yet unbiased look at Muslims in The Netherlands. Why should I go out of my way to defend the Muslim way of life when Muslim are unwilling to allow any degree of freedom of expression amongst themselves?

Theo Van Gogh was a racist rabble rouser (although he was an equal opportunity racist, since he was an anti-semite as well). Having said that, I don't agree with his murder.

We have no right to complain about repression in Islamic countries. The "West" has done its best to promote despotism in such countries, especially the oil producing ones. Look back at the history of Islamic countries. Who put the autocrats there, or if they didn't who supported them. I guess that the US and UK thought that Saddam Hussein was so evil that they had to support him back in the 80s against Iran, which had suffered decades of repression after the US and UK helped overthrow its nascent democracy. What about the Indonesians? Well, we sure helped them along by aiding and abetting the overthrow of the legitimate government and installation of the butcher Suharto. There are plenty of other examples of our self serving attitude that have resulted in decades of tyranny for people living in the Muslim world. This isn't hidden. You can read about it in any decent work of history. On the rare occasions such facts make their way into the mainstream media, there is no shortage of mealy-mouthed sophists to falsify history in order to hide the truth.

Oddly enough, the insistence of our wonderful Western governments on repressing popular, secular movements (communist or not) helped Islamism flourish, since it was the form of dissent that the authorities were least able to suppress (even then they did pretty well).

Until people in Western countries realize that the historical record shows us to be the bad guys, nothing will change. We've been screwing them over for years with our support of tyrants. Producing works of art that criticise Muslims and tell them to be better is about the same as Germans doing the same with regard to the Jews. It's tasteless and needlessly offensive.

Until our lords and masters make a genuine effort to promote real democracy in Islamic countries and cease frustrating that goal, our complaints about Islam are hollow.

[Macky-Mac]

That was 60 years ago. Apparently, and according to friends who've lived there, the place is rife with it. Not the really bad KKK kind of racism, but just a general looking down upon others. Part of it seems to be that they think no-one else notices, and that might be right. Denmark is not usually newsworthy.


well first you say that Denmark is a notoriously racist country....and then you repeat that to emphasis it.......and now you're back tracking to "not the really bad KKK kind of racism, but just a general looking down upon others"

so which is it?

If you're going to say wicked things about ethnic groups, shouldn't you stand your ground and continue to denouce them as evil?

[Bill Gates]

Let's keep this thread on topic please. My take on this whole thing is that if we can't all act civilized and accept this for what it is--art--then we don't deserve to watch it in the first place. Hopefully it will continue as was previously planned.

[Macky-Mac]

....Who put the autocrats there, or if they didn't who supported them......


this is one of the most overplayed pieces of cold war propaganda that's still hanging around.......actually the overwhelming largest percentage of these "autocrats" are the traditional leaders of clans that have been the leadership in these areas long before the modern world came along and divided them into modern states.

this is just more of the "we're not responsible for our own wretched situation" that's routinely put forward

[Agathon]

well first you say that Denmark is a notoriously racist country....and then you repeat that to emphasis it.......and now you're back tracking to "not the really bad KKK kind of racism, but just a general looking down upon others"

so which is it?

If you're going to say wicked things about ethnic groups, shouldn't you stand your ground and continue to denouce them as evil?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that racism extends from the mild to the severe.

And you aren't a rocket scientist.

[Agathon]

this is one of the most overplayed pieces of cold war propaganda that's still hanging around.......actually the overwhelming largest percentage of these "autocrats" are the traditional leaders of clans that have been the leadership in these areas long before the modern world came along and divided them into modern states.

this is just more of the "we're not responsible for our own wretched situation" that's routinely put forward

You will have to do better than that. It does not matter whether or not they were traditional leaders. What matters is the fact that Western nations supported them against their own people, and in many cases colluded with them against popular forces.

Those are the facts. As I said: any decent history book contains them. If you choose to ignore them in favour of an alternate reality, then go ahead. But don't waste my time.

[Macky-Mac]

You will have to do better than that. It does not matter whether or not they were traditional leaders. What matters is the fact that Western nations supported them against their own people, and in many cases colluded with them against popular forces.

Those are the facts. As I said: any decent history book contains them. If you choose to ignore them in favour of an alternate reality, then go ahead. But don't waste my time.


"it doesnt matter whether or not they were traditional leaders" ....... what a foolish thing to say! You're claiming that outsiders imposed regimes when in fact, these leaders were frequently part of a historical continuum that represents the culture and politics of the area before any western intervention. You may not like that, but that's too bad.

hey, if you cant support your claims, then it's you that's living in an "alternate reality"....this generic "oh it's any decent history book...yada yada" is nothing more than than saying "everybody knows....." which is the usual response when there's inadequate support for an arguement. Give us some facts if you can. Heck, make some up for the fun of the arguement if you have to.

what you're saying is just a rehash of propaganda from 20th century geo-politics. Well, yes, the West has tried to meddle, but you only have to look at the situation in the middle east to see how little success they've had. If your claims were true, then all would be peace and quiet under Western domination....but obviously that's not the case which shows how far off your reasoning is

[Macky-Mac]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that racism extends from the mild to the severe.

And you aren't a rocket scientist.

haha, and obviously you arent either with your unsupported claims and slogans

anyway, you're the one who in a different thread promoted the anniihilation of what you call "a worthless nation" so I guess that does give you a certain unique knowledge about racism

[solvs]

Producing works of art that criticise Muslims and tell them to be better
What do you mean criticizing Muslims? It isn't just Mohammad's head, it's got a lot of religions mixed in there. And art criticizes religion all the time. All different kinds. People are only worried about reprisal from fundamentalist radicals who might be offended and react violently.

Not saying they don't have a right to be a little upset, just as any other religious person could, but I think we can all agree anything violent in retaliation is completely uncalled for.

[calculus]

Apparently, and according to friends who've lived there, the place is rife with it.
Well that proves it for me then...:rolleyes:

[KingYaba]

I don't understand the term "rife with it."

[solvs]

I don't understand the term "rife with it."
I think it means all Dutch people are racist.

The irony is kinda funny.

[xsedrinam]

I think it means all Dutch people are racist.

The irony is kinda funny.
Sad really. That and hijacking the thread in one fell swoop. At least it's served to illustrate the various forms intolerance can take.

[hulugu]

this is one of the most overplayed pieces of cold war propaganda that's still hanging around.......actually the overwhelming largest percentage of these "autocrats" are the traditional leaders of clans that have been the leadership in these areas long before the modern world came along and divided them into modern states.

this is just more of the "we're not responsible for our own wretched situation" that's routinely put forward

I like that you just dismiss the post-WWI division of the Mid-East into states, most of which were created along abstract geographical lines without any regard to religious or group differences. Iraq is a perfect example of a country that grabbed ethnic Kurds and shoved them together with Arab Sunnis and Shi'ites.
The modern states of the Mid-East make very little actual sense and often help to forment rivalries.

[Agathon]

I think it means all Dutch people are racist.

No it doesn't.

Besides, you could at least get the nationality right.

Read for yourself.

http://www.faklen.dk/en/doc/somalia.shtml

http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/denmark/index.htm

I was shocked to learn this myself. I know several people who lived in Denmark for extended periods of time (one is my brother). When the Muhammad cartoons thing erupted, I said I was surprised that it would happen in a country like Denmark. To a man they said they weren't surprised at all, and had themselves been shocked at the level of racism in Denmark. It seems that the Danes (and especially that particular newspaper) make the Daily Mail look like Socialist Worker in comparison.

[Agathon]

"it doesnt matter whether or not they were traditional leaders" ....... what a foolish thing to say! You're claiming that outsiders imposed regimes when in fact, these leaders were frequently part of a historical continuum that represents the culture and politics of the area before any western intervention. You may not like that, but that's too bad.

hey, if you cant support your claims, then it's you that's living in an "alternate reality"....this generic "oh it's any decent history book...yada yada" is nothing more than than saying "everybody knows....." which is the usual response when there's inadequate support for an arguement. Give us some facts if you can. Heck, make some up for the fun of the arguement if you have to.

what you're saying is just a rehash of propaganda from 20th century geo-politics. Well, yes, the West has tried to meddle, but you only have to look at the situation in the middle east to see how little success they've had. If your claims were true, then all would be peace and quiet under Western domination....but obviously that's not the case which shows how far off your reasoning is

You're clueless. The last point simply does not follow. The British were successful in imposing their will in South Asia, but there was not "peace and quiet" as you put it. The conditional is false.

As I said before. Go read any decent history book. Anything that would do in a first year university course would probably do the trick if memory serves. If you want facts, they are there. Why would it make any difference if I copied and pasted them into this forum? I doubt it would make any difference with you, since your only response to accepted facts is to claim that they are "propaganda". Of course, were I to reference from texts, you would claim that as "propaganda" or a "liberal conspiracy" too.

Better still, enrol at a decent college and learn for yourself.

[iMeowbot]

Does anyone know what they are using for a libretto here? I haven't stumbled on a copy with a scene like this.

[xsedrinam]

Does anyone know what they are using for a libretto here? I haven't stumbled on a copy with a scene like this.
That's a good question since operatic libretti have been adapted from myths and legends, historical events, biographies, plays, poems, short stories, novels, and sometimes even non-literary sources.

I've not seen any such copy, either, so we're left to assume license was taken by and from someone. It'd be interesting to know the answer to that.

A brief search for "libretto for Idomeneo" turns up this (http://www.karadar.com/Librettos/mozart_idomeneo.html).

[Macky-Mac]

....'Anything that would do in a first year university course would probably do the trick if memory serves. ....

obviously your memory isn't working well since you haven't been able to support your arguement with anything other than name calling, insults and insisting you're right simply because you say so.....but that's typical of propaganda

Anyway, certainly the British, for a while, had better luck in South Asia than they had in the Middle East. But when you admit that British intervention there didn't result in "peace and quiet", you're actually making my point by contradicting your claim that the British were "successful"......in the end the British decided that departure was their only good option after they tired of the ongoing military and police efforts necessary to maintain their position.

[Macky-Mac]

... Iraq is a perfect example of a country that grabbed ethnic Kurds and shoved them together with Arab Sunnis and Shi'ites.
The modern states of the Mid-East make very little actual sense and often help to forment rivalries.

the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ite all lived together in this region under the Ottoman Empire before there were any modern states in the area. The creation of modern states didn't create that situation as it already existed

[Agathon]

obviously your memory isn't working well since you haven't been able to support your arguement with anything other than name calling, insults and insisting you're right simply because you say so.....but that's typical of propaganda.

First it's spelled "argument".

And second. I have given you advice on where to find the facts if you want them (for example if you want a widely accessible book on the partitioning of the Middle East, read Margaret MacMillan's recent book Paris 1919). The claims I made are generally accepted in academic circles, and will be found in any respectable book covering the area and period (opinions differ over the rightness or wrongness of these policies, but the facts themselves are hardly in dispute). If you choose not to look, that is your problem. You are the one denying generally accepted facts, not me.

If you expect people to come up with exhaustive references for historical commonplaces, then that is testament to your own lack of historical knowledge, and nothing else. You are to blame.

Anyway, certainly the British, for a while, had better luck in South Asia than they had in the Middle East. But when you admit that British intervention there didn't result in "peace and quiet", you're actually making my point by contradicting your claim that the British were "successful"......in the end the British decided that departure was their only good option after they tired of the ongoing military and police efforts necessary to maintain their position.

They were successful at imposing their rule on South Asia for about 150 years. They were also successful at leaving behind some of their (better) political institutions. The fact that they often had to brutally suppress native revolts (like the Sepoy revolt) demonstrates that there was not "peace and quiet".

There's no contradiction in saying that the British were able to force their political will on South Asia, and that there were revolts and demonstrations, etc. The British simply managed to suppress these when they happened. To say that this is contradictory is foolish.

[Agathon]

the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ite all lived together in this region under the Ottoman Empire before there were any modern states in the area. The creation of modern states didn't create that situation as it already existed

The Ottoman empire was divided into various adminstrative regions. The divisions were often better than the ones imposed after the Versailles conference.

But it doesn't matter. The Arabs weren't particularly fond of the Ottomans either, but at least they were Muslims. The victorious powers of WWI were given the opportunity to organize the Middle East along stable lines. They chose instead to line their own pockets.

After all, as everyone at the Peace Conference learned, Wilson's right to the "self determination" of peoples only applied to white people.

[Macky-Mac]

.... (opinions differ over the rightness or wrongness of these policies, but the facts themselves are hardly in dispute)....


ah, well you see it's your OPINION that needs supporting here and not the historical record, perhaps you didn't understand that. As you say "...opinions differ over the rightness or wrongness ...." and you've made some pretty strong statements about "rightness or wrongness" in your posts. Having stated your views, it's your obligation to support your position if you can. Responding with insults, name calling and silly bluster simply gives the impression that you're unable to do that. And nobody's asking you for "exhaustive references," a single simple bit of support is all that's needed.

[hulugu]

the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ite all lived together in this region under the Ottoman Empire before there were any modern states in the area. The creation of modern states didn't create that situation as it already existed

Granted the end of the Ottoman Empire didn't create the ethnic conflicts we see today, but by putting groups together into states, we created new conflicts of power and resources (read oil) that didn't exist before because everyone was subjugated by the Ottomon Empire and their Janissaries. At the very best, the creation of modern states across the former boundaries of tribal and religious affliations merely accerbated old tensions, however it created new ones at the same time. Iraq is the clearest and best example of a country created out of the needs of the Western powers.
Notice that religious tensions in Saudi Arabia (largely empty, but mostly Sunni Arabs) are low and a single powerful tribe controls much of the state. This doesn't necessarily create stability, but it does help.
Your mistake, I think, is to believe that only one thing can be happening, and that's not true, the western powers took a bad situation and made it more complex and dangerous, but that's not the only reason the Mid-East is as screwed up as it is, we can add a whole series of modern political mistakes by both outer and internal powers, the discovery of oil and the lack of other resources, economic problems (such as the US's tariff on Egyptian cotton), and the lack of education and literacy in the Mid-East.