Zune Pricing and Shipping Announced.

[Chundles]

MS has announced pricing for the Zune (US$249.99) and shipping (November)

Here's a link: Zuney Goo-goo... (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060928/microsoft_zune.html)

A whole 99c more than the iPod - sorry MS, no dice.

[tvguru]

MS has announced pricing for the Zune (US$249.99) and shipping (November)

Here's a link: Zuney Goo-goo... (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060928/microsoft_zune.html)

A whole 99c more than the iPod - sorry MS, no dice.

That's what I thought too. Why would they tack on the 99 cents?! Now if the review goes sour they're just going to add that it costs more too. :confused:

[Danksi]

Microsoft Corp. has vowed to put considerable money and effort behind its bid to dethrone Apple Computer Inc.'s market-leading iPod, but it won't be using price as a weapon.

... wow, that makes a nice change.

A whole 99c more than the iPod - sorry MS, no dice.

"It also will feature a 3-inch screen and a built-in FM tuner, and will come loaded with about 25 songs and other content." - probably worth the extra 99 bob, eh?

What's the DRM on this thing again? If it can play all the formats, allow files to be added/removed without the need of external software (i.e. MTP), along with an additional battery option, I may well be interested.

[Diatribe]

... wow, that makes a nice change.



"It also will feature a 3-inch screen and a built-in FM tuner, and will come loaded with about 25 songs and other content." - probably worth the extra 99 bob, eh?

What's the DRM on this thing again? If it can play all the formats, allow files to be added/removed without the need of external software (i.e. MTP), along with an additional battery option, I may well be interested.

AFAIK it has the same resolution so the 3" over 2.5" doesn't really make a big difference. And I don't get what all the fuss about an FM tuner is all about. Creative has had that too, did it get people to buy it? No.
And I'll withhold any comments on the wireless part until I know about battery life... because that'll be substancially lower.

[sushi]

MS has announced pricing for the Zune (US$249.99) and shipping (November)

Here's a link: Zuney Goo-goo... (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060928/microsoft_zune.html)

A whole 99c more than the iPod - sorry MS, no dice.
It was rumored to be $300 (299).

Guess they thought better of that price and matched the iPod's price + 99 cents.

[timnosenzo]

Interesting article... so in summary, Microsoft is basically trying to dethrone Apple by doing what everyone else in the industry is already doing. Well done, folks.... :rolleyes:

[Savage Henry]

Wifi: When was the last time anybody bought a playlist from iTunes because somebody may have music that they haven't heard?

FM Tuner: This may have excited people back in the 70's when a toasted sandwich was considered high cuisine.

Extra ½inch of screen: It stays in my pocket, so what's the point of that.


I've heard turkeys gobble, but this one actually sucks.

[jholzner]

Well, the Zune cannot dethrone the iPod since the most popular iPod model is the Nano and microsoft does not have a player at the price point. They are going after Apple's high end player when the volume of sales goes to the "lower" end models. How many people who were looking to buy a shuffle/Nano will instead get a Zune? I doubt very many.

Apple shoud have kept their prices on their video iPods the same and then, once Microsoft announced their pricing and started shipping model, lower it to where they are now. Instead, they gave them the time to update their pricing. Oh well, I guess it's good for people who have bought since they were announced.

I think the larger screen could get some people to buy a Zune instead of an iPod. I know they are the same res. but most people don't know what that even means. They see bigger and go for it.

I really think it going to come down to how well MS can market this thing.

[Macnoviz]

Well, the Zune cannot dethrone the iPod since the most popular iPod model is the Nano and microsoft does not have a player at the price point. They are going after Apple's high end player when the volume of sales goes to the "lower" end models. How many people who were looking to buy a shuffle/Nano will instead get a Zune? I doubt very many.

Apple shoud have kept their prices on their video iPods the same and then, once Microsoft announced their pricing and started shipping model, lower it to where they are now. Instead, they gave them the time to update their pricing. Oh well, I guess it's good for people who have bought since they were announced.

I think the larger screen could get some people to buy a Zune instead of an iPod. I know they are the same res. but most people don't know what that even means. They see bigger and go for it.

I really think it going to come down to how well MS can market this thing.

A Zune like that for the price of a nano would have "killed" the iPod, but this is just pathetic.

[Bobdude161]

have they posted pictues of this "zune" yet?

[Macnoviz]

have they posted pictues of this "zune" yet?

Yeah, on Endgadget they have the pricing story+pictures

Official pictures of the Zune have been around for some time nowhttp://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/09/zune-colors.jpg

[plinkoman]

Yeah, on Endgadget they have the pricing story+pictures

Official pictures of the Zune have been around for some time now

wow, I don't get how some people think that looks good. to me it is beyond ugly. :cool:

[DubbaJ]

wow, I don't get how some people think that looks good. to me it is beyond ugly. :cool:


And of the people who plan on buying one, does anyone WANT the brown one?!

[Eraserhead]

Hmm, it doesn't look great but are our criticisms the same as the ones for the original iPod? I think you have to wait for it to be released before judging it, who knows it could actually be good, and have good software as the guy in the other thread said.

[GFLPraxis]

What's the DRM on this thing again? If it can play all the formats, allow files to be added/removed without the need of external software (i.e. MTP), along with an additional battery option, I may well be interested.

The same as any other Windows Media device. I don't see why you'd be interested in one of these and not be interested in one of Creative's MP3 Players that play the same formats...

Anyway, I wouldn't be interested. The iPod has much more support (video converters, Handbrake, hardware accessories, etc) , and has iTunes. This is basicly an iPod with iTunes stripped out. You can buy music off other music stores but not videos...Amazon's Unbox videos won't play I'm fairly certain, for example, so there is no way to get video content on it easily.

[CompUser]

Haha. It may have a bigger screen, but you can't get vidoes easily for it like you can the iPod with the Zune Marketplace.

[Macanadian]

14.99 for unlimited downloads!

I can just picture some teen's staying as long as possible for a month to get thousands of songs downloaded.

[BRLawyer]

The funny thing is: it's fugly, it's MS and they can't stop copying, even the price...here is to MS fanboys everywhere... :rolleyes:

Fill the blanks, please:

"We had to look at what was in ________ and offer a ___________"

[Frisco]

I think it comes preloaded with this CD (http://www.amazon.com/Crash-Dave-Matthews-Band/dp/B000002WYT)

[nightelf]

And of the people who plan on buying one, does anyone WANT the brown one?!

Someone that works in UPS? :rolleyes:

[orbital]

The formats it plays are all the usual candidates. Except what is new is that it can play apple's AAC formate, though not the DRM version only the one that you use to make your cds from, I think you are still screwed if you use Apple Lossless. More or less I think that Zune is a good thing over all it will light some fire under Apples arse to get the 6th GN ipod out. Competition is always a plus, in breeds perfection. Also another thing to note, is though the Zune can play video Microsoft has no free films, no TV shows, and no movies. Also no anounced partnerships. They "plan" to but thats it. Also how compatable is this thing with podcasting? What about the new podcast formate (640x480)? Does Zune Marketplace have intergrated RSS? Personally I think one of the best aspect of the ipod is the easy intergration of podcasts and free videos into the itunes player and thus into the ipod.

Also I am not sure that the downloads are playable on the device. They say that once you download them you have to buy them for $.79. All i remember is that the unlimited aspect is for downloads to your computer, similar to URGE, then you have to buy the song if you want it mobile.

[fabsgwu]

I'll stick with iPod because Zune doesn't do Mac (at all). End of story for me (and any mac user).

And who the f- wants to rent music? No thanks, for me.

[anubis]

Note that on the wifi, any songs you transfer to your player from someone's player will be slapped with some manner of DRM. If my memory serves me correctly, I think I read somewhere that this DRM will automatically disable/delete the transferred song after 3 days or something like that. Useless.

Leave it to microsoft to tout a brown MP3 player as an "ipod killer" :rolleyes:

[heffemonkeyman]

"It will be a competition of features versus features, form factor versus form factor, winning the hearts and minds of consumers with something other than price,"

Good luck with all of that. Hummm, user experience vs user experience, I wonder who would win that?

"For consumers looking to own a song, the Zune Marketplace will sell tracks for 79 Microsoft points. A user can buy 80 Microsoft points for $1"

Oooh goodie, Frylock Fun Bucks! WTF? :confused:

[gloss]

I'll stick with iPod because Zune doesn't do Mac (at all). End of story for me (and any mac user).

And who the f- wants to rent music? No thanks, for me.

Interesting. Didn't know that.

[Kalmia]

Not only is that ugly as sin, but I can't think of anything that I'd be less interested in than battery-munching wifi and useless FM radio. It'll take some greater innovation than that to dethrone the device that revolutionized the entire market. :rolleyes:

Of course, that's the problem with Microsoft... even if they bomb when breaking into a new market and take a huge profit loss, they've got so much cash to spare that they can hang in there long enough to achieve a foothold. Xbox, anyone...?


~Kalmia

[fabsgwu]

Note that on the wifi, any songs you transfer to your player from someone's player will be slapped with some manner of DRM. If my memory serves me correctly, I think I read somewhere that this DRM will automatically disable/delete the transferred song after 3 days or something like that. Useless.

Leave it to microsoft to tout a brown MP3 player as an "ipod killer" :rolleyes:

Originally it was reported that the Zune would put DRM on non-DRM'd songs. It turns out this is not the case.

But any transferred DRM song will be as you said, good for 3 days or 3 plays (which ever comes first).

[STLSigns]

It looks nice and clean. I guess it will have a good interface for users. All of these things Apple did already and we all know it.

Oh, wireless sounds nice too on a MS product.
Sharing my content with others around me, COOL....
Until...
"what the F*$#, why is my new MS Zune not working. I guess I need to do a virus check, contact MS, downlaod new security updates and try again. Still not working..arrrrrrg."

I see a Funny iPod commercial for that.

[PlaceofDis]

14.99 for unlimited downloads!

I can just picture some teen's staying as long as possible for a month to get thousands of songs downloaded.

except they won't work once you don't pay the next month. :rolleyes:

[Macnoviz]

14.99 for unlimited downloads!

I can just picture some teen's staying as long as possible for a month to get thousands of songs downloaded.

Don't forget that if that teen wants to be able to listen to his huge music collection in the future, he will have to cough up the fee again and again and again. suppose he is 14, at 44, he will have paid $ 5396.4. I think most teens will stick with whatever it is they use to get music illegally (To be honest, I use the local library + iTunes, so semi-not very legal)

I would prefer to pay a monthly fee for WoW than iZunes, but I am saving up for the World youth days in Sydney, so I will take neither

EDIT: Placeofdis beat me by 2 minutes

[Bobdude161]

Yeah, on Endgadget they have the pricing story+pictures

Official pictures of the Zune have been around for some time now

hmmm interesting, they even copied the mop floor effect that Apple uses on displaying their products. :rolleyes:

[guzhogi]

Personally, I wouldn't mind an FM tuner, wireless & bigger screen. W/ the wireless, I'd also like the option of turning it on & off. For the bigger screen, I don't want to be staring at a 2.5" screen for a multi-hour flight or whatever. 3" isn't that much of an improvement, but it's something.

[arn]

And who the f- wants to rent music? No thanks, for me.

well, you can rent or buy. sounds like they offer both models.

arn

[Silencio]

The thing that caught my eye about the Zune pricing scheme is this whole "Microsoft Points" concept:

For consumers looking to own a song, the Zune Marketplace will sell tracks for 79 Microsoft points. A user can buy 80 Microsoft points for $1 and points will also be redeemable at its online video game store, Xbox Live Marketplace.

So the inevitable is happening: Microsoft is trying to "embrace and extend" hard currency. If you can only buy Microsoft points in dollar increments, they are going to be sitting on a lot of people's unspent points, which will artificially line their coffers. How typical is that of the way they operate? :mad:

[jagolden]

The funny thing is: it's fugly,...

It's not fugly, it's full-term!

[Macnoviz]

hmmm interesting, they even copied the mop floor effect that Apple uses on displaying their products. :rolleyes:

And to quote our Canadian Friend:

they even copied the mop floor effect, buuut, zey didn't get zat quite right"

Just look at the distorterd click-but-no-wheel-wheels

The quote in my sig is actually about the 1st gen iPod, but I think it is quite appropriate to describe the Zune

(various edits during the last minutes)

[fabsgwu]

well, you can rent or buy. sounds like they offer both models.

arn

Yeah, got that. But if you're a mac user and you don't like to rent music, then the Zune/Zune Marketplace really shouldn't be on your radar (iPod/iTunes should serve just fine).

Apple should definitely work on movie rentals, tho...

[jagolden]

It looks nice and clean. I guess it will have a good interface for users. All of these things Apple did already and we all know it.

Oh, wireless sounds nice too on a MS product.
Sharing my content with others around me, COOL....
Until...
"what the F*$#, why is my new MS Zune not working. I guess I need to do a virus check, contact MS, downlaod new security updates and try again. Still not working..arrrrrrg."

Yeah i can see it now, the screen reads "Unit has detected a volume change. Please restart to apply change."

[mazola]

The hardware is all fine-and-good with competitive price and nice additional features, but there's one side we haven't seen yet and that's the software that it integrates with.

That will be the make-it-or-break-it item for me.

If it's an iTunes wanna-be then no dice!

But if it doesn't have a blue icon, then the Zune's for me!

[Macnoviz]

Yeah i can see it now, the screen reads "Unit has detected a volume change. Please restart to apply change."

Not to mention abuses, and viruses that automatically broadcast themselves

[fabsgwu]

For the bigger screen, I don't want to be staring at a 2.5" screen for a multi-hour flight or whatever. 3" isn't that much of an improvement, but it's something.

Still a 4:3 aspect ratio, so it's not even wide screen. Hopefully Steve'll bring us that on the true Video iPod...

[plinkoman]

The thing that caught my eye about the Zune pricing scheme is this whole "Microsoft Points" concept:

So the inevitable is happening: Microsoft is trying to "embrace and extend" hard currency. If you can only buy Microsoft points in dollar increments, they are going to be sitting on a lot of people's unspent points, which will artificially line their coffers. How typical is that of the way they operate? :mad:

also, with those points, it makes it seem cheaper. 79 points for a song instead of $.99, when average joe isn't supposed to notice that 79 points costs $.99, thus it's the same friggen thing. :rolleyes:

just another cheap marketing ploy...

[theBB]

"For consumers looking to own a song, the Zune Marketplace will sell tracks for 79 Microsoft points. A user can buy 80 Microsoft points for $1
I've seen that on CNN and could not believe my eyes. They are trying to fool people into believing that each song is about 79 cents, although it is the same price as iTS, 99c. They had to make it complicated with points and stuff instead of real dollars. I guess that's Microsoft's MO. Now, each song is $1*(79/80) if you can work out the math.

In any case, once again, brown???

[evansls]

wifi on the zune player is a gimmick and in marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

[PlaceofDis]

one other point...

this will NOT work on Macs. so there is some limit there, not surprising.
oh, and remember that this is not a Microsoft piece of hardware. this is made by and designed by Toshiba.

[gnasher729]

While Apple makes a ton of money selling all kinds of iPods, Microsoft will apparently be making a loss on each "Zune" they are selling...

Well, I don't think they will sell too many, so their losses will stay within reasonable limits.

[nbs2]

Just because I know it will please the wolves.;)

From Thruott's review of the "new" iPods - "I can't imagine why Microsoft is even attempting to enter this market." Apparently everybody is baffled by this thing...

[Doctor Q]

Does anybody think Apple will blink? If you do, explain why.

[Eduardo1971]

wow, I don't get how some people think that looks good. to me it is beyond ugly. :cool:

Good point, but in my opinion the first generation iPod was UGLY!

This is good. Hopefully Microsoft's entry will light a fire on Apple.

[notjustjay]

Not profitable this year, but hopes to be in future years.

So, their plan is to try and kill off the iPod, and once they're the last man standing they can raise their prices?

This is a good thing? :confused:

[ipoddin]

I've seen that on CNN and could not believe my eyes. They are trying to fool people into believing that each song is about 79 cents, although it is the same price as iTS, 99c. They had to make it complicated with points and stuff instead of real dollars. I guess that's Microsoft's MO. Now, each song is $1*(79/80) if you can work out the math.

In any case, once again, brown???

Interesting. Xbox 360 uses MS points to purchase downloadable content for games.

[brepublican]

Zune, of course, provides no Mac compatibility.
No **** :rolleyes:

Well, there go my dreams of buying a Zoom cos I was totally gonna be all over that ***** when it hit the stores. But who the heck knows when that'll be anyway? :D

[orbital]

Hands down the best screen is on the PSP. It COULD have killed the ipod save for sonys stupidity with the memory card BS, damn that machine would be so sweet if it had a 30 GB HD and was the same size.

[mark!]

Everyone that hates iPod's make fun of it for not having a radio.
WTF do I need a crappy radio for, (with crappy sound quality), when I can have ALL the songs I want (that I have anyway) right there on the iPod. :rolleyes:

ftw????

Also...wtf is up with the Zune looking like a 3G iPod on acid?
Who would buy that brown cheap plastic pos??????
wtff????????

[briansolomon]

A $50 difference isn't essentially the same price IMO.

[PlaceofDis]

A $50 difference isn't essentially the same price IMO.

what $50 price difference?

Edit.
iPod = $249 for the 30gig
Zune = $249.99 for 30gig

where is there $50 in there?

[sfwalter]

The two things I like about the Zune:

1. 3" screen and you can show videos in landscape mode. I hope Apple does this in the future.

2. Personalize--with background image. It makes the display look a little nicer.

I don't like the whole point thingy. I prefer to pay 99 cents if I want to buy a song that costs 99 cents. Not 79 points which is equivent to 98.75 cents. To me its like going to a carnival. Some rides cost 3 tickets, some cost 4 tickets etc. Just seems confusing to me.

I also don't understand on how Microsoft is losing money. The Zune is based off of a existing Toshiba design. The iPod has been profitable since day 1.

scott

[Diatribe]

Does anybody think Apple will blink? If you do, explain why.

Well, I don't think they are worried too much, the resolution is the same, the capacity too, the features the Zune has over the iPod are marginal and not that important as Creative knows, sales are going to the nanos atm anyway and if they bring out the true video iPod then they have the high end market to themselves again.
The only thing where they might change something is the bit rate at the iTS to match or surpass MS.

For me, if they'd offer Lossless with song texts at 99 cents I'd never buy a CD anymore but that may just be me.

[PlaceofDis]

The two things I like about the Zune:

1. 3" screen and you can show videos in landscape mode. I hope Apple does this in the future.

2. Personalize--with background image. It makes the display look a little nicer.

I don't like the whole point thingy. I prefer to pay 99 cents if I want to buy a song that costs 99 cents. Not 79 points which is equivent to 98.75 cents. To me its like going to a carnival. Some rides cost 3 tickets, some cost 4 tickets etc. Just seems confusing to me.

I also don't understand on how Microsoft is losing money. The Zune is based off of a existing Toshiba design. The iPod has been profitable since day 1.

scott

1. but it has the same res as the iPod so you're not getting any bigger of an image, if anything it'll be grainier.

2. i do agree that the personalization is something thats nice. not a deal-breaker, but nice.

and actually in all reality the iPod wasn't a money maker from day one, if you figure in the development and research costs into it all. granted Microsoft doesn't have to pay for that. but they are going to pay a lot of money for advertising that is going to be basically wasted because they won't be gaining a foothold in the market for a long time, but they'll try and saturate the market with a lot of machines.

[Diatribe]

The two things I like about the Zune:



Same res, no difference just a little big bigger, no real widesreen just horizontal instead of vertical positioning. Not really an improvement if you ask me.

Edit: Beaten ;)

[plinkoman]

A $50 difference isn't essentially the same price IMO.

have you been reading anything in this thread? :rolleyes:

30GB iPod = $249.00
30GB Zune = $249.99

that would be a $.99 difference, which IS essentially the same price. :cool:

[mcdermd]

you can show videos in landscape mode.

iPod displays in landscape by default. It does not, however display in portrait. IMHO, this is good. No need to sit there and turn the thing sideways all the time. Up is always up, down is always down. That's good interface design as opposed to a cheap trick to fool people into thinking your 4:3 screen is a 16:9 screen.

[Blue Velvet]

Does anybody think Apple will blink? If you do, explain why.


Yes. Because what will give them pause for thought is Microsoft's involvement and re-energising of its efforts.

I share the opinion that what Microsoft is really concerned about is Apple essentially using the iPod to develop and promote a viable platform and product ecology in order to drive a Trojan Horse into the concept of the digital home, attempting to monopolise media delivery in the way that the iTMS has shown it can be done.

Forget all the trivia about the price of songs and the look and feel of the Zune. Longterm, the iPod represents a real threat to Microsoft's longer-term ambitions... Apple have stirred up a hornet's nest.

[plinkoman]

1. but it has the same res as the iPod so you're not getting any bigger of an image, if anything it'll be grainier.

keep in mind that while true, the average customer doesn't have the slightest clue what resolution is.

I had a friend buy a dell laptop, despite really wanting a MacBook because he wanted a 15" screen and didn't want to pay the price for a MBP. When I noticed his dell had the same resolution as a MB, I just wanted to punch him; but alas, that is how the average customer thinks. :cool:

[brepublican]

Everyone that hates iPod's make fun of it for not having a radio.
WTF do I need a crappy radio for, (with crappy sound quality), when I can have ALL the songs I want (that I have anyway) right there on the iPod. :rolleyes:

Couldnt agree with you more. Doesnt an FM transmitter defeat the entire purpose of having an mp3 player? Why in heaven's name anyone would want to listen to the radio on an iPod beats the crap out of me! These are the same morons who are not against ad supported podcasts :mad:

[stainlessliquid]

Not profitable this year, but hopes to be in future years.

So, their plan is to try and kill off the iPod, and once they're the last man standing they can raise their prices?

This is a good thing? :confused:
They are using the game console method of making money. They sell hardware at less than what its worth, take a hit initially, then make up the losses in software sales. It allows for a greater amount of customers that hopefully buy more stuff for as long as they own the device rather than just relying on a one time purchase. In the long run you make more money.

The Zune doesnt look that bad. The interface atleast seems like a breath of fresh air, its actually modern looking. The itunes interface or whatever Apple calls it is just plain outdated. Bigtime. It may have been cutting edge a few years ago but give me a break, they havent updated it since the first version other than adding color. I like my old iPod but if Apple cant offer something new in terms of the GUI then the next MP3 player I get is 100% not going to be an iPod. Its just inexcusable. The only thing I dont like about Zune is the fact that you have to use WMP, I hate using that program for music (although I like using it for videos, funny since iTunes is good for managing music but just laughable at handling videos). I'll have to save my final verdict for when its released and I can see just how good the screen and GUI is, I hope its not dim and cheap looking.

[ChrisA]

WTF do I need a crappy radio for, (with crappy sound quality), when I can have ALL the songs I want (that I have anyway) right there on the iPod.


Live sports broadcasts maybe,

Ipods only play recordings, radio is live.

[Silencio]

what $50 price difference?

Edit.
iPod = $249 for the 30gig
Zune = $249.99 for 30gig

where is there $50 in there?

I assume that $50 comes from the price Apple charges for the FM radio/wired remote accessory.

But why do some people think built-in FM radio is such a killer feature? I think the market has spoken out pretty strongly about the fact that only a tiny minority care about it really care about it. And if you want it that bad, you can add it. But why should the rest of us have to pay for a feature we're not going to use?

[joemama]

wow, I don't get how some people think that looks good. to me it is beyond ugly. :cool:

From a design standpoint it's actually not that bad. What I want to know is how are companies getting away with copying Apple's click wheel? Doesn't Apple have a patent on this? Can't they do a cease-and-desist?

Did I miss something?

[milo]

I also don't understand on how Microsoft is losing money. The Zune is based off of a existing Toshiba design. The iPod has been profitable since day 1.

And Toshiba was selling their version for more. Without the wifi, which is fairly expensive.

A couple things nobody has mentioned yet on this thread:

Sharing is NOT available for all songs, it will be limited to some but MS hasn't explained how that limitation works.

The "click wheel" isn't a wheel at all, it's just four buttons. So expect a navigation system that isn't nearly as cool as that on the iPod.

[(L)]

Preloaded content... this is just pretty annoying, no? It's like buying a walkman and getting a CD full of crap music to boot. Yes, it's "extra," yes, you can get rid of it. But that's just one more thing that doesn't add to the product.

Oh wow, wireless, you can beam stuff. Big whoop, that's not the primary function anyway. And sure, the software makes a big difference, but notice that the pics have these unnecessary backgrounds on them? Why? Probably, you can change those, but this reminds me of that "If Microsoft made the iPod box" video in which they package the iPod with all this junk (a rebate cupon ad, some guy jumping as the "human element"...). The controls look uncomfortable.

But I must say, the general failure of the Zune is obvious - the device is, for the majority of potential buyers, obscure. The iPod is well known and furthermore, well-liked by many, even those that have had to deal with breaking iPods. The Zune is not simply awkward, obscure, and in some cases, brown, but also rather uncool.

Theoretically, an iPod killer would combine an excellent online music store with an excellent music player. NOT, simply making a music player like any other on the market and synching it with an unknown fledgling music store. Microsoft simply needs to do much, much better to catch up to the iPod, and adding wireless features as an extra or having preloaded content doesn't add enough to make up for the gap in the strength of the basics. If the Zune were touchscreen and had sufficiently intuitive controls, for example, it'd be much more attractive than "hey guys, same deal as before, only with wireless and some other crap you don't really need!"

[plinkoman]

They are using the game console method of making money. They sell hardware at less than what its worth, take a hit initially, then make up the losses in software sales. It allows for a greater amount of customers that hopefully buy more stuff for as long as they own the device rather than just relying on a one time purchase. In the long run you make more money.

not quite. games make money, but $.99 songs don't; at least not for the resellers (iTunes, zune music store or whatever they call it).

in apples case, they don't sell iPods at a loss to make more money selling songs; they sell songs at a loss to make more money selling iPods.

though I don't think apple takes a loss on songs anymore, they barely break even. for this, it works opposite of games; the money is in the hardware.

[Silencio]

They are using the game console method of making money. They sell hardware at less than what its worth, take a hit initially, then make up the losses in software sales. It allows for a greater amount of customers that hopefully buy more stuff for as long as they own the device rather than just relying on a one time purchase. In the long run you make more money.

Too bad the Xbox 360 is still a money-loser over all IIRC, and they still haven't managed to outsell the PS2.

Speaking of Sony: a poster above brought up the PSP. Now that was the device Apple insiders were truly worried about. When the final specs were released, there was a huge sigh of relief in Cupertino.

[BornAgainMac]

Perhaps Apple should "dethrone" Microsoft in the applications and operating system market. :p

[(L)]

keep in mind that while true, the average customer doesn't have the slightest clue what resolution is.

I had a friend buy a dell laptop, despite really wanting a MacBook because he wanted a 15" screen and didn't want to pay the price for a MBP. When I noticed his dell had the same resolution as a MB, I just wanted to punch him; but alas, that is how the average customer thinks. :cool:

Not to back up Dell, but the thing is that it really isn't about resolution. You can have 1280 by 1024 resolution on a postage stamp, but nobody can read anything. It makes sense to go for a larger screen if you are uncomfortable on a smaller screen, for any reason, and it's not necessarily the resolution that is at the crux of this.

[bluewire]

Live sports broadcasts maybe,

Ipods only play recordings, radio is live.

Sports are on FM dial. The Zune does not solve this problem. I live in a large market and only the hockey team broadcasts on the FM dial....AM has way more juice and range and is naturally the better medium of broadcast then then higher quality but range limited FM dial range.

[j26]

And of the people who plan on buying one, does anyone WANT the brown one?!

I might pick up one. It matches my 13 month old daughters poo.


Although she'll probably be in college by the time it actually gets released.

[plinkoman]

Not to back up Dell, but the thing is that it really isn't about resolution. You can have 1280 by 1024 resolution on a postage stamp, but nobody can read anything. It makes sense to go for a larger screen if you are uncomfortable on a smaller screen, for any reason, and it's not necessarily the resolution that is at the crux of this.

it's a valid point, but there's a big difference between a 15" display with the same res as a postage stamp and a 15" display with the same res as a 13" display. and while some people may want a bigger screen just for the sake of comfort for poor eyesight, that was not the case in my example, nor would it be for the vast majority of people (i.e: younger people) who would want an mp3/video player.

But why do some people think built-in FM radio is such a killer feature? I think the market has spoken out pretty strongly about the fact that only a tiny minority care about it really care about it. And if you want it that bad, you can add it. But why should the rest of us have to pay for a feature we're not going to use?

agreed. I can't remember the last time I listened to radio. I suppose I can vaguely understand the draw of satellite radio; but I just can't see anyone in the market for an mp3 player truly caring about radio.

[Blue Velvet]

...I just can't see anyone in the market for an mp3 player truly caring about radio.


Radio is alive and well in other parts of the world than the US where it sounds like corporate payola, profiling and automated rotational play have sapped the life out the medium.

I love my iPod and I love my radio. :)

[inkswamp]

MS Execs: Now, we just need a name for our iTunes rip-off, something that snares users, grab their attention and really gets their juices flowing. Someone wake up the marketing guy...

Marketing guy: Oh... um... uh... how about... um... Zune Marketplace? Yeah?

MS Execs: @#$%&* that gets us stiff! Let's roll with that baby.



I can't imagine a less inspired name than that.

Zune, of course, provides no Mac compatibility.

Darn. I will be deprived of the Zune Marketpla... zzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzz...

[aldo]

I think you guys are totally underestimating how powerful this wireless functionality could be. At schools/colleges/universities, it's going to be huge if it catches on. Perhaps in the US it's different, but nearly everyone these days has a bluetooth enabled mobile phone and kids love swapping songs on them, the amount of piracy that must go on through the phones is massive.

Anyway, imagine sitting in a lesson or lecture and copying 10 albums from random people. It's going to be utterly massive. 2.4GHz will never be quiet again ;). And wifi has decent range - so it could be from the other side of school.

I think it's very interesting concept. I think Apple may get outflanked on this one, badly, unless they put wireless functionality in the iPod.

[mcdermd]

But the wireless sharing is neutered with a "three plays or three days" implementation. All DRM'd. That will loose it's shine quiclkly being that it is not a medium for piracy after all.

[Silencio]

I think you guys are totally underestimating how powerful this wireless functionality could be. At schools/colleges/universities, it's going to be huge if it catches on. Perhaps in the US it's different, but nearly everyone these days has a bluetooth enabled mobile phone and kids love swapping songs on them, the amount of piracy that must go on through the phones is massive.

How useful is the wireless functionality in the Zune going to be if 1) M$ prohibits transmission of un-DRM'ed music (why on earth would the major labels let them do otherwise?), and 2) you're the only person to actually own a Zune in your postal code?

[aldo]

But the wireless sharing is neutered with a "three plays or three days" implementation. All DRM'd. That will loose it's shine quiclkly being that it is not a medium for piracy after all.

I don't think that's true. Only on songs you buy (off the zune marketplace) have that problem. Any of your own songs (ie: 99% which are downloaded or ripped from CDs) are totally DRM free and you can swap as much as you like.

[aldo]

How useful is the wireless functionality in the Zune going to be if 1) M$ prohibits transmission of un-DRM'ed music (why on earth would the major labels let them do otherwise?), and 2) you're the only person to actually own a Zune in your postal code?

1) The labels need Zune more than Microsoft needs labels. Microsoft is way, way bigger and the labels are getting done over if Apple continues to be the dominant player - they simply can't reneg on contracts without Microsoft being big. Plus it's none of their business what people do with un-drm'd stuff, much like Apple let's you rip 'protected' CDs and put them on your iPod (surely the RIAA et al would not allow you to do that if they had the clout?).

2) Obviously this is a problem, but if it does take off -- something I think it will much more outside of the US because I bet Microsoft don't massively overcharge the European market as bad as Apple does, at least if the Xbox 360 is any guidance.

[plinkoman]

I think you guys are totally underestimating how powerful this wireless functionality could be. At schools/colleges/universities, it's going to be huge if it catches on. Perhaps in the US it's different, but nearly everyone these days has a bluetooth enabled mobile phone and kids love swapping songs on them, the amount of piracy that must go on through the phones is massive.

Anyway, imagine sitting in a lesson or lecture and copying 10 albums from random people. It's going to be utterly massive. 2.4GHz will never be quiet again ;). And wifi has decent range - so it could be from the other side of school.

I think it's very interesting concept. I think Apple may get outflanked on this one, badly, unless they put wireless functionality in the iPod.

It won't happen like that. It's the chicken and the egg. (assuming the wireless would have the effect you describe). In order for the zune to take off, people will need to use the wireless sharing; in order to use the wirless sharing, the zune will have needed to already take off in order for other people to have a zune to share with.

someone may read about the wirless feature, think it's cool, see if anyone else he knows has a zune, finds out the answer is no, and says "oh well, I'll get an iPod then".

and of course, thats all operating under your assumption of people loving the wireless function; which remains to be seen. (though I doubt anyone really will care)

[Zwhaler]

wow, I don't get how some people think that looks good. to me it is beyond ugly. :cool:

At least the brown one is.

[bdj21ya]

I use the radio to find new songs for purchase. I would appreciate an iPod with built in FM tuner, especially if it included the feature to mark for download the current song playing (using the Radio Data System information, the same data the current iPod radio remote displays on your screen, for radio stations that use it).

How awesome would that be? Next time I plug in my iPod, it asks me to confirm the purchase (wouldn't want to get the wrong version of the song) and I don't have to go to the trouble of even remembering the song info. I know this isn't a problem for everyone, but a lot of times I'll hear a song on the radio in my car and decide I want to download it, but then the radio station doesn't mention who the Artist/ what the title is, and I'm left searching for the lyrics I remember on the internet.

I think this would be a huge improvement/innovation for the iPod, and it might even have a significant impact on iTS sales (I sure miss iTMS). How? Well for one it just makes the whole process easier, but also, as long as I'm searcing for the lyrics, it's frequently just as easy to search for a free version of the song while I'm at it.

[stainlessliquid]

I could care less about sharing music, I could definately care less about crappy FM radio. What DOES sound cool in a huge way is being able to transfer songs to the Zune wirelessly. You could put the dock next to the door to the garage for when you leave, hell you could leave it in the car, put it on a shelf, leave it in your pocket, literally anywhere. Its 2006, I think its about damn time we have a wireless mp3 player. I doubt anyone here could say that isnt a cool feature, bluetooth ipods have been sought after for a long long time.

Apple has been getting lazy with ipod features thanks to lack of real competition. I hope the Zune makes Apple get its act together so we can have a real race.

[MacGuy88]

Yeah i can see it now, the screen reads "Unit has detected a volume change. Please restart to apply change."

Oh dear God, I cannot wait for the ad-wars to begin! Haha!:D

[twistedlegato]

Yeah, on Endgadget they have the pricing story+pictures

Official pictures of the Zune have been around for some time nowhttp://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/09/zune-colors.jpg



Am i the only one here who actually likes the design:confused:

I love the ipods a million times more, but i like the Zune's design for its actually quite good....for Microsoft that is;)

[PlaceofDis]

Am i the only one here who actually likes the design:confused:

I love the ipods a million times more, but i like the Zune's design for its actually quite good....for Microsoft that is;)

again. for Toshiba. not MicroSoft.

[mashny]

They saw the success of the Macintosh GUI [Yes, Apple got it from Xerox but Xerox had done nothing with it for years -- it was a useless technology as far as Xerox was concerned]; they purchased DOS for a song (relatively speaking); they didn't create the spreadsheet, word processor, or presentation application... What they're good at is copying other people's and companies' ideas and using their market power to steal the business -- of Netscaping the competition. It always gets me angry when I see that TV ad about how Microsoft fosters the imagination of young students, allowing them to be whatever they want to be. Perhaps they should create an ad explaining to students the virtues of theft: without other people's ideas to steal, there would be no Microsoft. It is Apple who has always been the innovator, who invents new technologies, who understands the importance of design, who changes and challenges the way people perceive computers, who makes high-quality products that (though more expensive than those in the PC world) work they way they're supposed to...

I read something a while back that said Microsoft's philosophy about new products and ideas is to "deprecate, investigate, then imitate." It's a philosophy that has obviously served them well, to the detriment of innovation and fair competition. If Bill Gates didn't have to worry about antitrust issues, I'm sure he would have been much more "aggressive" about putting Apple out of business.

I bought an iPod because I love Apple and its products, because radio--even satellite radio--lost its appeal for me, and because it allows me to take my music--an important part of my life--with me wherever I go. The Zune is simply another example of Microsoft attempting to capitalize on another company's success by throwing tens or hundreds of millions of dollars at a product. Regarding the Zune, I will never buy hardware made by Microsoft.

Whew, felt good to get all that off my chest.

mashny

[mahonmeister]

I want to see some honest reviews and comparisons. It looks like a decent device and I am really curious to see why some claim the user interface is superior. Just because it is from Microsoft doesn't mean it sucks.

[brepublican]

again. for Toshiba. not MicroSoft.
Well, it does kind of remind me of a 3G iPod...

[archurban]

it's rush product. Ms actually didn't have any plan to jump into digital music market. but they don't like ipod to be number one, and swap over the market. so they borrowed toshiba gigabit 30GB, change UI, control little bit, create marketplace (music store). video playback even doesn't support HD like recent ipod. it can't also play 640x480 neither. most important fact I just pass this crap is no compatibility with mac. it's huge mistake. if MS wants to compete with ipod, they should make compatible device.

MS now offers $0.99 per song, $14.99(?) for monthly subscription. what about album? won't it be $9.99?

MS also copied ipod hifi, too. the name is 'octavio'. it's very same product. they copied mac os, now follows exactly the same way to copy ipod, and accessories, too. hate this company. where is creation?

[ezekielrage_99]

Why do we even care about the Zune?

It doesn't even work on a Mac so why are we even bothering. No one here will even buy it for the one big reason IT WONT WORK ON ANYONE'S EQUIPMENT, we are all pretty much Mac are all hense the "Macrumors Forum" :confused:

Zune = Too Little Too Late.

[gugy]

Zune will bomb.
I'll give less than 1 year.
Mark my words. I guess is not very hard thing to predict.:D

[steve_hill4]

MS Execs: Now, we just need a name for our iTunes rip-off, something that snares users, grab their attention and really gets their juices flowing. Someone wake up the marketing guy...

Marketing guy: Oh... um... uh... how about... um... Zune Marketplace? Yeah?

MS Execs: @#$%&* that gets us stiff! Let's roll with that baby.
That's gold. :D

I was actually visualising that meeting in my head and it was brilliant.

[stainlessliquid]

heres a video of the Zune in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sZNqD_YWI

I must say the GUI outclasses the outdated one Apple has been sticking with. I hope Apple comes up with something new soon since theres really no way to beat the click wheel for scrolling through songs, something like the new album flip thing in itunes would be cool on an ipod.

[gugy]

I still hope (wish) the widescreen ipod is coming before the end of October and priced at $499.
I think Apple did not announce it yet so people would start buying the regular ipods first. Then the major announcement comes right before the xmass season.
Let's see. If not then, I'll be buying the regular one.

[Music-Man]

heres a video of the Zune in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sZNqD_YWI

I must say the GUI outclasses the outdated one Apple has been sticking with. I hope Apple comes up with something new soon since theres really no way to beat the click wheel for scrolling through songs, something like the new album flip thing in itunes would be cool on an ipod.

I'm thinking that they'll impliment a few different GUI's like iTunes 7. Maybe have classic, CoverFlow and a Front Row style interface. Something like the iTV interface, a combination between FR and CoverFlow, would look very cool on my black 5G.

[Jarbo]

heres a video of the Zune in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sZNqD_YWI

I must say the GUI outclasses the outdated one Apple has been sticking with.

It looks to me like the Zune "Click wheel" is nothing of the sort. Did anyone else notice that the user is pressing on the wheel to navigate through the media list, not moving the thumb around in a circular motion?

Am I crazy? Is that how they got around the patent?

[Jarbo]

Look at this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpHzQYKDlWU

To navigate through the menu you push once to move one listing down.

It's not a scroll wheel, its a 4-way navigation imposed on a circular wheel!

BWAHAHAHA

[stainlessliquid]

Its just a d-pad like on cell phones, its not pretending to be a click wheel. Its round because that looks better design wise than to have an ugly cross. Obviously Apple wont let any other company use that "crank" like method of scrolling, which is the best possible way of scrolling through songs.

[kwong2006]

I saw a picture of Zune on BBC, and it looks like an uninspired piece of crap. I won't buy that even if my life depended on it.

[chuckles:)]

i think apples real problem right now isn't the Zune, but the lack of innovation in the new ipods. they still havent changed much in over a year and the public is getting tired of it. unless they innovate the ipod will lose its "cool" factor faster than you can say annodized aluminum.

[SactoGuy18]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea for Microsoft to go after the high-end iPod market when right now the vast majority of iPod sales are for the nano and Shuffle models.

I wouldn't be surprised that Apple releases a 16 GB flash memory iPod nano by January 2007 and lowers the prices of the 2 GB, 4 GB and 8 GB models to really increase sales to keep the Microsoft juggernaut at bay. :)

[mahonmeister]

I still hope (wish) the widescreen ipod is coming before the end of October and priced at $499.
I think Apple did not announce it yet so people would start buying the regular ipods first. Then the major announcement comes right before the xmass season.
Let's see. If not then, I'll be buying the regular one.

Five Hundred for an iPod? I would hope they price it at $399. It seems that the new price points suggest something to fill that spot.

[mustard]

They saw the success of the Macintosh GUI [Yes, Apple got it from Xerox but Xerox had done nothing with it for years -- it was a useless technology as far as Xerox was concerned]; they purchased DOS for a song (relatively speaking); they didn't create the spreadsheet, word processor, or presentation application... What they're good at is copying other people's and companies' ideas and using their market power to steal the business -- of Netscaping the competition. It always gets me angry when I see that TV ad about how Microsoft fosters the imagination of young students, allowing them to be whatever they want to be. Perhaps they should create an ad explaining to students the virtues of theft: without other people's ideas to steal, there would be no Microsoft. It is Apple who has always been the innovator, who invents new technologies, who understands the importance of design, who changes and challenges the way people perceive computers, who makes high-quality products that (though more expensive than those in the PC world) work they way they're supposed to...


A wise man once said that "art is nothing more than cleverly designed theft"

I don't know who said that but it sounds "wise":p

[Nermal]

I'll stick with iPod because Zune doesn't do Mac (at all).

You can't just mount it as a drive and drop MP3s in there?

[flukewurm]

believe it or not i think the brown one looks effin bitchin. the UI looks slick as **** too. for a moment i was thinking that if apple doesnt release a widescreen ipod by this holiday season i might buy one. but the lack of itunes support and the **** DRM management blow the deal for me. or.... what was that 3rd party media player for xp that seemed so much like an itunes clone?.. ugh.

[redAPPLE]

i guess redmond again! ordered a batch of copiers.

[isoto]

More copying... try a bit harder M$. (Question: That black circle on the bottom of Zune is for the golf ball?)

[gugy]

Five Hundred for an iPod? I would hope they price it at $399. It seems that the new price points suggest something to fill that spot.

yeah, I wish it could be $399, but if this widescreen is amazing and revolutionary, I am pretty sure will cost at least close to $500. $50 difference would kill the ipod 80gig. That's why I expect it to be way more.
First of all let's hope will come this year.

[ro2nie]

Is this thing based on MS DOS?

[Macnoviz]

I don't think that's true. Only on songs you buy (off the zune marketplace) have that problem. Any of your own songs (ie: 99% which are downloaded or ripped from CDs) are totally DRM free and you can swap as much as you like.

It won't work that way, methinks, only photos and M$-DRM'ed stuff will be able to be transfered, probably also as a security mesure, to prevent nasty stuff from spreading through the air. The only advantage would be if both had the subscription, which lets you keep the music you get.


On a side note, I don't really hate the Zune, but I do hate all those backstabbing marketing tricks M$ has and will pull:
The 79 points, which are in fact 99 cents
The "widescreen" screen with 4:3 resolution
The scrollwheel that doesn't scroll
And the wireless function, that doesn't really do it

[angelneo]

I'm quite concerned about this. Look at xbox and what they did there in the gaming market. They are going to bulldoze their way in by throwing tons of money around. Seeing that they are selling Zune at a loss, I think this is what they are going to do for the first couple of years.

[aprilfools]

I wouldn't buy one anyway, but Microsoft along with ALL OTHER COMPANIES that dismiss the Mac/Apple can kiss my @#$%. My blood pressure rises to the top at companies that choose to overlook the Mac when it comes to software development and or designing a device with no Mac compatibility. A device with no Mac compatibility such as the Zune is just another complete perfect example of 100% pure stupidity at the highest of levels. Go Microsoft you stupid idiots and take the Zune with you. And the "Zune"???? Who at Microsoft thought that was a good name? The janitor? If I ever win the the Lottery, I will buy Microsoft and shut it down. Way down.

Ben

[skochan]

I'm predicting Apple will announce their full-screen iPod the day before MS releases Zune.

[archurban]

you mean November 13th? it's Monday. 14th is Tuesday. it's Zune official release date. if Apple really wants to kick MS a**, they will do it in the same week. we will see what'll be happened. it will be fun.

[Savage Henry]

I'm predicting Apple will announce their full-screen iPod the day before MS releases Zune.

I assume your vast intellectual grasp of product profiling wasn't tapped into when you made this prediction.:rolleyes:

One-upmanship on this scale where screensize matters is imbecillic. Conceptually, Zune is not a case of one aesthetic product vs. another; it's the beginning of a small eco-culture of home-based services that MS want to push out.

There is a bigger picture here and it's not on the front of the MP3 players.

[Macnoviz]

If I ever win the the Lottery, I will buy Microsoft and shut it down. Way down.

Ben

In Russia, Microsoft buys You !

no, seriously

[iJaz]

$14.99/month for subscription, that's way too much!

[FelixGV]

If the past M$ products are any indication, I think the Zune will be hacked hard and fast.

As most of us think, it is likely that the WiFi feature will be very restricted, but I think people will figure out a way to transfer whatever they wish, including non-DRM songs.

The next step, of course, is to hack the DRM itself. It was mentioned that the Zune and its Marketplace would not use the Plays-For-Sure DRM, but instead another new proprietary M$ DRM.

It is pretty clear to me that M$ non-officially supports and eases the piracy of its software to spread them further. Someone will eventually find a work-around to the M$/Zune DRM.

These hacks would add functionality to the Zune and make it more attractive, but perhaps also more vulnerable to malicious exploits...

It will be interesting to see how everything plays out!

[Machead III]

The price confirms it - the Zune is very likely an iPod killer.

Of course, all Apple need to do is release their next-gen iPod, air a couple of ads, and they've automatically won. But, as usual, they're pointlessly biding their time.

[dbally]

Not having Mac compatibility ruins the Zune for me, but I think it actually looks like a decent player otherwise (not counting DRM issues). Though, like others have said, the ipod's GUI needs some modernization. Maybe the GUI is one of those 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' cases, but a few superfluous graphics never hurt.

Ah, and the brown Zune is fugly.

[iMikeT]

I hope that the brown one finds its proper home in the toilets of anyone who actually buys one of these.


Again.... When will Microsoft stop copying Apple and everyone else? Did they really have to copy the iPod's price point as well?

Well, I hope the Apple and Google alliance kills Microsoft for good and drives Ballmer even farther down the "Crazy Trail".

[Macnoviz]

If the past M$ products are any indication, I think the Zune will be hacked hard and fast.

As most of us think, it is likely that the WiFi feature will be very restricted, but I think people will figure out a way to transfer whatever they wish, including non-DRM songs.

The next step, of course, is to hack the DRM itself. It was mentioned that the Zune and its Marketplace would not use the Plays-For-Sure DRM, but instead another new proprietary M$ DRM.

It is pretty clear to me that M$ non-officially supports and eases the piracy of its software to spread them further. Someone will eventually find a work-around to the M$/Zune DRM.

These hacks would add functionality to the Zune and make it more attractive, but perhaps also more vulnerable to malicious exploits...

It will be interesting to see how everything plays out!

indeed, I hope this will affect it negatively (Zune hacked over WiFi in 60 seconds, anyone?)
But of course, if a DRM hack software becomes popular, and it is easy to hack the Zune, it might become a selling point. Linux for Zune?

[Gasu E.]

It looks to me like the Zune "Click wheel" is nothing of the sort. Did anyone else notice that the user is pressing on the wheel to navigate through the media list, not moving the thumb around in a circular motion?


I think that's the Start button. You pump it three times and then pull the cord.

[Gasu E.]

<double post removed by author>

[lewchenko]

Ive been a mac owner for years, and have still got a 20Gb ipod hanging around, but I like this new zune player.

Its got more features than the ipod at the same price, and probably is more compatible with other music services, unlike Apple's lock you in itunes model AAC with patchy (75 disney movies-pah) video service.

For example - Amazon's video store and others will work on zune. I love apple products (especially my macbook) , but its bad for a company to have all the pie because they stop innovating.

Im welcoming Zune into the world because if nothing else, it will make apple try a damn sight harder than they currently are. Also, my girlfriend wants one simply because it plugs right into media player - where all her music lives. Ive tried many times to convert her to iTunes and iPods, but as her music is WMA etc, she's going for zune too.

[obirah]

I think it comes preloaded with this CD (http://www.amazon.com/Crash-Dave-Matthews-Band/dp/B000002WYT)

DMB is pretty cool but this Zune player aint at all!

I really want to know how long does the battery last... with this sophisticated full color blah blah interface... no Mac support... No way I am getting this thing. Have an iPod for three years now - it still rocks! :D

[Jarbo]

Its just a d-pad like on cell phones, its not pretending to be a click wheel. Its round because that looks better design wise than to have an ugly cross. Obviously Apple wont let any other company use that "crank" like method of scrolling, which is the best possible way of scrolling through songs.


Of course the problem with that is it will confuse anyone who has ever used an ipod scroll wheel.

While it may "look better" it's an inferior UI. I have nothing against a D-pad in principle but a D-pad should look like a D-pad, and a scroll-wheel like a scroll-wheel. And I know putting a D pad on a circle is not without precedent (game controllers etc) but in this particular case it makes no sense.

My computer keyboard might look better design-wise if it was round but it would be a bitch type.

[OllyW]

Its got more features than the ipod at the same price, and probably is more compatible with other music services, unlike Apple's lock you in itunes model AAC with patchy (75 disney movies-pah) video service.

Quite the opposite, you can only download DRM protected tracks from the Zune Marketplace so it is equally as restrictive as iTunes and doesn't even work with the download services of Microsoft's Plays for Sure partners.

[BRLawyer]

Its got more features than the ipod at the same price, and probably is more compatible with other music services, unlike Apple's lock you in itunes model AAC with patchy (75 disney movies-pah) video service.

For example - Amazon's video store and others will work on zune. I love apple products (especially my macbook) , but its bad for a company to have all the pie because they stop innovating.


1 - Sorry, which features? Radio? A misleading "wireless" feature? Or the brown color option?

2 - The iTMS is currently THE best choice for music and video...no others come close. Besides, it's an old myth that the iPod only accepts protected AAC.

3 - Amazon's "video store"...did you see the review today on Fortune? Please do...the expression "horror show" is there.

4 - Apple has not stopped innovating, and the others still have nothing that compares with the iPod integrated framework and ease of use. Besides, the "Zune" doesn't exist yet...it's vaporware.

[gauriemma]

I can't remember the last time I listened to radio. I suppose I can vaguely understand the draw of satellite radio; but I just can't see anyone in the market for an mp3 player truly caring about radio.

Being able to switch over to NPR during my morning commute would be nice. And there's an afternoon drive time program I like to listen to. I suppose FM would be a decent feature to have, but it's not "essential."

[chabig]

I don't think that's true. Only on songs you buy (off the zune marketplace) have that problem. Any of your own songs (ie: 99% which are downloaded or ripped from CDs) are totally DRM free and you can swap as much as you like.
No. It's definitely true. ALL songs (no matter their source) transferred acquire DRM limiting them to 3 plays or 3 days. This is true even if you compose and record your own song.

Microsoft spells this out in their own Zune blog (http://www.zuneinsider.com/2006/09/answers_to_some.html#comment-22515996).

"There currently isn't a way to sniff out what you are sending, so we wrap it all up in DRM. We can’t tell if you are sending a song from a known band or your own home recording so we default to the safety of encoding."

You heard it right...the "safety" of encoding...

Chris

[gkarris]

Oh dear God, I cannot wait for the ad-wars to begin! Haha!:D

iPod: "Hi, I'm an iPod" (older guy in casual clothing)
Zune: "And, I'm a Zune" (YUPPIE in brown tweed suite)

iPod: "I've been around for a while, I do music, photos, and video"
Zune: "I can do all those, and I work with XBoxes and Microsoft Media Centers, and I come in Brown..."

iPod: "Oh, really?"
Zune: "Yea, and my screen is larger and customizable, and I...."

iPod: "Zune? Zune? Zune? Looks like you need a restart... I'm going to download last night's TV shows now..."

[BRLawyer]

One-upmanship on this scale where screensize matters is imbecillic. Conceptually, Zune is not a case of one aesthetic product vs. another; it's the beginning of a small eco-culture of home-based services that MS want to push out.

There is a bigger picture here and it's not on the front of the MP3 players.

Yes, it's the beginning of a small "eco-culture" of home-based services that shall remain small as long as Zune is a poor brown music player that doesn't "play for sure"...

XBox - lossmaker
Zune - lossmaker
Windows Media Centers - lossmakers

Beam me up, Steve, this "eco-system" is making me ill...

[APPLENEWBIE]

For the life of me, I cannot imagine how the brown zune player got past even the most basic marketing people. Now, if it were a metallic bronze, with real metal, that might have been cool. But a muddy brown tending toward green? Argh. I also think that the strange raised accent line around the front will probably tend to "weather" faster than the rest of the unit, probably eroding the paint on the line, making the machine look beat up in short order. Having seen a couple of videos of a zune in action, it appears to me that it will be quite a handfull, and operating the fake wheel push buttons will make it much worse. A real scroll wheel is intuitive and also requires much less accuracy in placement of the fingers. Just get your finger on the wheel somewhere and you are good to go. Buttons, on the other hand, require specific finger placement in a rather confined space. I also wonder if hiding the button positions under the fake "wheel" will make it even harder to hit the button you want. It also appears, based on the videos, that this player's screen is not terribly bright, but maybe that is just a consequence of low quality video. Other than the above.... No I don't like it otherwise either...

[notjustjay]

Anyone want to wager Apple announces an across-the-board iPod price drop the day before Zune is released? :D

[princealfie]

Of course the problem with that is it will confuse anyone who has ever used an ipod scroll wheel.

While it may "look better" it's an inferior UI. I have nothing against a D-pad in principle but a D-pad should look like a D-pad, and a scroll-wheel like a scroll-wheel. And I know putting a D pad on a circle is not without precedent (game controllers etc) but in this particular case it makes no sense.

My computer keyboard might look better design-wise if it was round but it would be a bitch type.

I prefer the D pad on my Nintendo DS!

[aldo]

No. It's definitely true. ALL songs (no matter their source) transferred acquire DRM limiting them to 3 plays or 3 days. This is true even if you compose and record your own song.

Microsoft spells this out in their own Zune blog (http://www.zuneinsider.com/2006/09/answers_to_some.html#comment-22515996).

"There currently isn't a way to sniff out what you are sending, so we wrap it all up in DRM. We can’t tell if you are sending a song from a known band or your own home recording so we default to the safety of encoding."

You heard it right...the "safety" of encoding...

Chris

Tschh. Oh well, would of been very interesting if they didn't do that. Perhaps there is an easy way to turn the DRM off in the settings or they rethink this. I was sure that it was only the Zune DRMed stuff that had this protection on it.

[BRLawyer]

By the way, why are we discussing about a product that DOESN'T exist yet, looks fugly and which is NOT compatible with the Mac at all? :rolleyes:

[sushi]

Interesting article:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20060929/zune-ipod-microsoft-apple-price.htm

[FelixGV]

Interesting article:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20060929/zune-ipod-microsoft-apple-price.htm
I'm not sure if this article makes sense...

I agree that the Zune will probably hurt M$'s partners, but not because of its price. The Creative Zen 30 GB that plays video is also priced at 250$. I didn't look at the rest of the competition, but I suspect it's probably all around that price tag.

I think what will really hurt the other players is the DRM issue, which the article merely mentions without really going into depth about it. We know that the Zune and its marketplace will have a new DRM of their own. This new Zune DRM will not work with the rest of the PlaysForSure compliant devices, but will the Zune be compatible with PlaysForSure? If it isn't, it will hurt the PlaysForSure online music stores, but if the Zune IS compatible with PlaysForSure, it would hurt the other PlaysForSure devices pretty bad too...

What a sweet choice M$ has... choosing which partner/competitor to stab the most! The online music stores or the devices?

[Doenertier]

have you been reading anything in this thread? :rolleyes:

30GB iPod = $249.00
30GB Zune = $249.99

that would be a $.99 difference, which IS essentially the same price. :cool:

What is that difference in MS points again? THAT IS ONE SONG, MAN. :eek:

[archurban]

I don't understand what MS are thinking. Zune will work only with Zune marketplace. why? this is stupid. they made their own DRM protection which is not totally compatible with the rest of stores or devices by 'play for sure'. what do they think 'marketplace' will be succeeded as much as iTunes? that's why they created another stupid DRM? :rolleyes:

[janstett]

Interesting article... so in summary, Microsoft is basically trying to dethrone Apple by doing what everyone else in the industry is already doing. Well done, folks.... :rolleyes:

You have to remember Microsoft takes many generations to get it right. Sometimes they give up (phones, Bob, OS/2), sometimes they keep at it (Windows, X-Box, Pocket PC). If you dismiss them too easily, well, just remember how dominant the Palm Pilot was a few short years ago, and now Windows CE (Pocket PC) dominates.

This market is Apple's to lose. But MS is finally putting something on the table that belongs in the same league as the iPod.

[GFLPraxis]

14.99 for unlimited downloads!

I can just picture some teen's staying as long as possible for a month to get thousands of songs downloaded.

It's a rental, the music stops working as soon as you stop paying.

[sushi]

I'm not sure if this article makes sense...
Not sure either. But an interesting read.

I believe the holiday timeframe will give us a good indication. The Zune will be out in November. Updated iPods are already out. We shall see.

[asxtb]

(May already be posted but...)
Another reason the Zune will fail... Microsoft is not releasing the Zune in Japan. Read it in the paper today. (Sorry, can't find a link yet.)

[sushi]

(May already be posted but...)
Another reason the Zune will fail... Microsoft is not releasing the Zune in Japan. Read it in the paper today. (Sorry, can't find a link yet.)
If true, that is a big marketing mistake.

[BillHarrison]

Does anybody think Apple will blink? If you do, explain why.


Sony didn't blink when the original xbox was released, now they are clamoring to catch up after the release of the XBOX 360, and are stumbling along the way. Sony ruled the video game roost for the last 2 generations.

Being on top does not = staying on top

This is NOT an unattractive unit, atleast to me. They can keep the brown, but then again I would never buy a green Ipod either, but those exist.

People have been clamoring for a wifi/bluetooth ipod for sometime, so why is it such a bad Idea, I think its great!

The larger screen, and similair pricing moves it into ipod territory, and that is firmly that. If you think its not a threat, or dismiss it so simply, you will be in for a large surprise.

[gauchogolfer]

People have been clamoring for a wifi/bluetooth ipod for sometime, so why is it such a bad Idea, I think its great!


I think the reasoning is that it's not 'truly' wireless, in that you can't sync it with your computer wirelessly, can't stream to a stereo wirelessly, can't purchase new music wirelessly, etc. etc. It's just (to me) a gimmick that they've added on, and won't really add much value.

[gloss]

I think that's the Start button. You pump it three times and then pull the cord.

I thought this was funny.

Yar har!

[Apple Shmapple]

I wouldn't buy one anyway, but Microsoft along with ALL OTHER COMPANIES that dismiss the Mac/Apple can kiss my @#$%. My blood pressure rises to the top at companies that choose to overlook the Mac when it comes to software development and or designing a device with no Mac compatibility. A device with no Mac compatibility such as the Zune is just another complete perfect example of 100% pure stupidity at the highest of levels. Go Microsoft you stupid idiots and take the Zune with you. And the "Zune"???? Who at Microsoft thought that was a good name? The janitor? If I ever win the the Lottery, I will buy Microsoft and shut it down. Way down.

Ben

You, my friend, are a marketer's wet dream. Reality check: You're flying off the handle because one consumer product didn't think of another consumer product.

[inkswamp]

That's gold. :D

I was actually visualising that meeting in my head and it was brilliant.

Glad you enjoyed it. :D

[inkswamp]

Anyone want to wager Apple announces an across-the-board iPod price drop the day before Zune is released? :D

I say they won't. It would be too much reaction and who would want to give off the impression of being scared of their competitor, especially something as yawn-inducing as the ZZZZzzzzZZZZune? If anything, Apple will step up production of the next iPod (whatever it is) to one-up the Zune's introduction hype.

[inkswamp]

Sony didn't blink when the original xbox was released, now they are clamoring to catch up after the release of the XBOX 360, and are stumbling along the way. Sony ruled the video game roost for the last 2 generations.

This is what's called a "post hoc" fallacy. You're assuming because something happens after another thing that they must be related, but I disagree. Sony has had its own problems for the last 10+ years that have nothing to do with the XBOX. Don't give the XBOX too much credit for this. Any competitor could have stepped in to rule Sony. And what about Nintendo? The Wii is getting some crazy hype and it's being predicted as the big winner in the next generation of consoles. And from what I can see, it looks like a real step forward in terms of gaming. The XBox 360 is just the same old gameplay with more power behind it. Why do you think that's so hard to beat?

This is NOT an unattractive unit, atleast to me. They can keep the brown, but then again I would never buy a green Ipod either, but those exist.

It's not unattractive, but it does have that trying-too-hard-to-look-like-an-iPod aura to it that might cause a lot of consumers to think see it as a cheap knock off.

People have been clamoring for a wifi/bluetooth ipod for sometime, so why is it such a bad Idea, I think its great!

Geeks have been clamoring for wifi. Nobody else gives a frig! It's classic MS. Take a simple idea and bog it down with a load of features only a small fraction of their users will bother with.

The larger screen, and similair pricing moves it into ipod territory, and that is firmly that. If you think its not a threat, or dismiss it so simply, you will be in for a large surprise.

This conclusion was pulled totally out of your ass. Don't be so condescending about it. :mad:

[janstett]

This is what's called a "post hoc" fallacy. You're assuming because something happens after another thing that they must be related, but I disagree. Sony has had its own problems for the last 10+ years that have nothing to do with the XBOX. Don't give the XBOX too much credit for this. Any competitor could have stepped in to rule Sony. And what about Nintendo? The Wii is getting some crazy hype and it's being predicted as the big winner in the next generation of consoles. And from what I can see, it looks like a real step forward in terms of gaming. The XBox 360 is just the same old gameplay with more power behind it. Why do you think that's so hard to beat?

What??? Talk about historical revisionism. Yes, if you looked closely Sony has dropped the ball on many fronts (Walkman/iPod, flatscreen TV tech, etc.) but the Playstation was the one thing they got right.

Any competitor could have stepped in to rule Sony? Ha ha ha. Let me refresh your memory. Sega had just mounted a comeback with its very good Dreamcast system (it was really ahead of its time, with VGA output and built-in connectivity), and all of a sudden it came to a screeching halt when the PS2 hype machine started churning. Sega's days as a console maker came to an end. Nintendo ruled the roost from 1985-1995 and found themselves a distant second -- and then third within a few years. They have been doing consoles for 20 years and found themselves relegated to also-rans in two generations with the ineptitude of the N64. It was in this environment that Microsoft introduced the first X-Box. Much like the iPod now is to Apple, the market was Sony's to lose. Microsoft's chances coming into this were slim-to-none.

Now they have entrenched themselves at a competitive #2 player in the next generation, and every day Sony manages to botch the PS3 launch is another day MS grows stronger and gets a chance at #1 with the XBox 360.

So while Sony has shot itself in the foot, Sega and Nintendo failed to capitalize where the XBox has thus far succeeded. It is foolish to consistantly underestimate Microsoft -- they actually manage to get some thinsg right. Let me give you a quick history in case you have forgotten.

DOS wasn't always the defacto on the PC.
Windows didn't always rule the desktop.
Office wasn't always ubiquitous. There used to be these things called Lotus 1-2-3, dBase, Word Perfect, VisiCalc, etc. that were the leading office products.
Windows CE was once a joke, and now it has all but obliterrated Palm OS.

Need I continue? The pattern is clear. They start with a sucky product but incrementally improve it until eventually it dominates -- if they can be bothered to stick with it.

Microsoft put a LOT of thought into the X-Box 360. A LOT. It is clear with the 360 that they weren't screwing around. Now the same team behind that is responsible for the Zune. Don't be so quick to dismiss it.

[Apple Shmapple]

What??? Talk about historical revisionism. Yes, if you looked closely Sony has dropped the ball on many fronts (Walkman/iPod, flatscreen TV tech, etc.) but the Playstation was the one thing they got right.

Any competitor could have stepped in to rule Sony? Ha ha ha. Let me refresh your memory. Sega had just mounted a comeback with its very good Dreamcast system (it was really ahead of its time, with VGA output and built-in connectivity), and all of a sudden it came to a screeching halt when the PS2 hype machine started churning. Sega's days as a console maker came to an end. Nintendo ruled the roost from 1985-1995 and found themselves a distant second -- and then third within a few years. They have been doing consoles for 20 years and found themselves relegated to also-rans in two generations with the ineptitude of the N64. It was in this environment that Microsoft introduced the first X-Box. Much like the iPod now is to Apple, the market was Sony's to lose. Microsoft's chances coming into this were slim-to-none.

Now they have entrenched themselves at a competitive #2 player in the next generation, and every day Sony manages to botch the PS3 launch is another day MS grows stronger and gets a chance at #1 with the XBox 360.

So while Sony has shot itself in the foot, Sega and Nintendo failed to capitalize where the XBox has thus far succeeded. It is foolish to consistantly underestimate Microsoft -- they actually manage to get some thinsg right. Let me give you a quick history in case you have forgotten.

DOS wasn't always the defacto on the PC.
Windows didn't always rule the desktop.
Office wasn't always ubiquitous. There used to be these things called Lotus 1-2-3, dBase, Word Perfect, VisiCalc, etc. that were the leading office products.
Windows CE was once a joke, and now it has all but obliterrated Palm OS.

Need I continue? The pattern is clear. They start with a sucky product but incrementally improve it until eventually it dominates -- if they can be bothered to stick with it.

Microsoft put a LOT of thought into the X-Box 360. A LOT. It is clear with the 360 that they weren't screwing around. Now the same team behind that is responsible for the Zune. Don't be so quick to dismiss it.

GREAT post. Everyone is proclaiming the Wii to be some kind of next generation champion. I contend it isn't even a step forward in gaming. Just to the side with this motion sensitivity controller. The console will still be dominated by Playskool games for kiddies. Hardly the way to win a console war.

I honestly think the kiddie Wii contigent just has the largest internet presence and are creating a false sense of demand out of a product that no adult would want.

[eShinn]

From a design standpoint it's actually not that bad. What I want to know is how are companies getting away with copying Apple's click wheel? Doesn't Apple have a patent on this? Can't they do a cease-and-desist?

Did I miss something?

Ha ha ha. Are you kidding me? It's built by Toshiba. If you ever have the chance to come over to Tokyo and stroll through Yodabashi (sort of like a "Best Buy" only very cluttered and un-kept) you'll see TONS of crap that copy from Apple. The click wheel is copied in everything including cell phones and refrigerator UIs. The worste though are on laptops. These people actually make trackpads that are ROUND with a scroll wheel that goes around it. It's absolutely shameless over here. At least its not as bad as the gum-drop mimicry that took place durring the CRT iMac era.

[eShinn]

(May already be posted but...)
Another reason the Zune will fail... Microsoft is not releasing the Zune in Japan. Read it in the paper today. (Sorry, can't find a link yet.)

Ha ha. Of course not - because its already out in Japan under a different/original brand name.

"Hey this looks just like the Toshiba mp3 player I already decided NOT to buy." Sort of like the people who picked up an iPod and saw HP on it. ha ha.

[janstett]

BTW people have missed some finer points of the Zune.

For example, with the bigger screen, Microsoft photos do show it tilted on the side (for a more widescreen aspect ratio) and the picture adjusts automatically. That's what people have been speculating about with the true video iPod.

[Silencio]

DOS wasn't always the defacto on the PC.
Windows didn't always rule the desktop.
Office wasn't always ubiquitous. There used to be these things called Lotus 1-2-3, dBase, Word Perfect, VisiCalc, etc. that were the leading office products.
Windows CE was once a joke, and now it has all but obliterrated Palm OS.

Need I continue? The pattern is clear. They start with a sucky product but incrementally improve it until eventually it dominates -- if they can be bothered to stick with it.

Microsoft tried to take on Intuit in personal accounting software. Miserable failure.

Microsoft tried to take on Oracle in enterprise databases. Miserable failure.

Microsoft has tried to take on Adobe in various markets and technologies over the years. Miserable failure after miserable failure.

Microsoft has tried to make MSN the premiere web portal for years and drive AOL and Yahoo into the ground. Miserable failure.

Just because they spend a lot of time and money on something doesn't mean they're going to automatically win. They can roll over the inept and hubris-clouded Netscapes, WordPerfects, Palms, and Lotuses of the world, but intelligently-run companies and beat them back. Can't say I see Apple pulling a Palm here.

[Macnoviz]

Microsoft has tried to make MSN the premiere web portal for years and drive AOL and Yahoo into the ground. Miserable failure.


Unfortunatly, over here MSN is synonym for Instant Messaging, When you talk about AIM, Yahoo, or any other IM service they go huh? Is that something like MSN? And I'm really not exagerating here, for a lot of people, MSN is the only possible way to IM, and ironically, by this attitude, it has become the only way to IM.:(

[janstett]

Microsoft tried to take on Intuit in personal accounting software. Miserable failure.

Microsoft tried to take on Oracle in enterprise databases. Miserable failure.

Microsoft has tried to take on Adobe in various markets and technologies over the years. Miserable failure after miserable failure.

Microsoft has tried to make MSN the premiere web portal for years and drive AOL and Yahoo into the ground. Miserable failure.

Just because they spend a lot of time and money on something doesn't mean they're going to automatically win. They can roll over the inept and hubris-clouded Netscapes, WordPerfects, Palms, and Lotuses of the world, but intelligently-run companies and beat them back. Can't say I see Apple pulling a Palm here.

Yes, Microsoft has its failures. I'm not trying to be a MS cheerleader -- just suggesting not to underestimate them.

I wouldn't call all of those things you listed failures. For example, MS SQL server is actually based on Sybase's SQL server. Oracle has a huge lead over everybody else, including MS & Sybase. MSN, well, some success and some failures. But they aren't giving up.

Perhaps the greatest example, which I forgot to mention the first time, is Novell Netware. They once OWNED the network server market, something like 89%, and Microsoft's LAN Manager was a joke. Today Novell is hanging on by its fingernails as a relic of the past. Microsoft just kept plugging away while Novell sat on its laurels and found itself in the dust bin. It took more than a decade for this to happen, but it did happen.

Intelligently-run companies can beat back Microsoft. But I think the lesson is that 9 out of 10 companies are not intelligently run, at least not 100% of the time. Some day Steve Jobs will leave Apple, or Apple will lose its grip on the market through one or more screw ups, and MS will capitalize on each and every mistake. It requires constant vigilance, and too often you have a Netscape or a Palm or a Netware who are so clouded by hubris they can't help tripping over themselves.

[milo]

BTW people have missed some finer points of the Zune.

For example, with the bigger screen, Microsoft photos do show it tilted on the side (for a more widescreen aspect ratio) and the picture adjusts automatically. That's what people have been speculating about with the true video iPod.

How is that an advantage? Sure, you'll use more of the resolution for landscape...but any pictures in portrait orientation will use less resolution than the iPod. It's just a tradeoff, not an improvement.

[jholzner]

heres a video of the Zune in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sZNqD_YWI

I must say the GUI outclasses the outdated one Apple has been sticking with. I hope Apple comes up with something new soon since theres really no way to beat the click wheel for scrolling through songs, something like the new album flip thing in itunes would be cool on an ipod.

It is pretty nice but seems kinda busy. I agree that the iPod UI could use an update. Oh, and the brown one is much uglier in real footage than in the marketing picts.

[Ubuntu]

Haha. It may have a bigger screen, but you can't get vidoes easily for it like you can the iPod with the Zune Marketplace.

You serious?

I've had one video on my iPod that came from iTunes. The rest came from DVDs or Limewire. The latter was because the UK iTunes store was so limited in content.