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MacRumors
Apr 10, 2003, 08:01 AM
MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-04-10#5222) posts a few tidbits... reporting that the new 970 motherboads will utilize AGP 8x and Hypertransport, and that the Powerbook will not utilize the 970 processor until well into 2004.



maradong
Apr 10, 2003, 08:50 AM
:/ Hm. I m not sure if i shall not cancel my order for the 12 '' pb right now as it seems the pb with g4 will soon be un valued by the 970 pb...

Bateman
Apr 10, 2003, 08:50 AM
So what exactly is AGP 8x and Hypertransport??

I hope that the powerbook part is misinformed because i would really like to see these chips introduced in both the powermac and the powerbook at the same time. but i do think that the chances of them coming out in the xServe and Powermac are higher, as many others think also. The 17 inch is just too fresh, i believe, to become fairly obsolete.

Are the properties mentioned at the top included in the G4/G3 motherboards???

barkmonster
Apr 10, 2003, 08:52 AM
Quick google translation :

Here in bulk, other information which we have just received: - the 2 mother charts of the Computers PPC 970 which arrive, will have AGP 8x and hypertransport. On the other hand, at the beginning of 2004, during the renewal of the range, the NCV express train will make its appearance. - As opposed to what one heard much, there will be no Powerbook PPC 970 before the second quarter 2004, where will arrive the PPC 970 0,09 microns. The current version with 0,13, heating too. Moreover the combination hypertransport/PPC 970 would give a definitely insufficient autonomy/

I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

idkew
Apr 10, 2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by maradong
:/ Hm. I m not sure if i shall not cancel my order for the 12 '' pb right now as it seems the pb with g4 will soon be un valued by the 970 pb...


huh? pb's will probably not have a 970 until much after the desktops. if they do, it will be an incomplete implementation. remember the powerbook 3400 and the first g3 powerbook? basically the same thing, and the g3 was not fully utilized.

go buy your 12" and upgrade to the rev. 2 970 powerbooks.

cubist
Apr 10, 2003, 09:25 AM
The express train may have something to do with the hypertransport? Isn't that a really fast train in France? I wish we had them in US. (Maybe we'll get them now that there is so much uproar about airport security...)

AGP 8X is a definite good, tho, because that will allow us to use great new graphics boards like the ATI Radeon 9800. That is very, very good news!:D

Victoriatus
Apr 10, 2003, 09:50 AM
Cubist and maybe some others, sorry the tell you this but here goes---

This is a word to word quote from ATI's Sr. Business Development Manager Toshi Okumura's statement about 8xAGP in ATI's press meeting in Stockholm February 11. 2003:

"It's a bigger number for an uneducated customer. You're not going to see any performance difference between 8x and 4x."

...and I thought one survey discovered that Mac users are better educated than their Windows using fellows.

Mr. Anderson
Apr 10, 2003, 09:55 AM
Makes sense about the Powerbook - I'm wondering, though about the .9 micron chips. If they're coming out in 2004, what sort of boost do you think they'll give to the PM line? Dual cores?

Imagine a dual core PowerBook.....that would be so very nice ;)

D

Frobozz
Apr 10, 2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-04-10#5222) posts a few tidbits... reporting that the new 970 motherboads will utilize AGP 8x and Hypertransport, and that the Powerbook will not utilize the 970 processor until well into 2004.

This doesn't seem like much news. This has all been reported before. I agree with some of the other posters, AGP 8x isn't a big deal. HyperTransport is a big deal, but is almost expected to deal with the 970's. Overall, just more confirmation about what we already believe. I'm not shocked in the slightest that the PB's won't have a 970 until Jan. PB's have recently been introduced in Jan. anyway, and the G4 has some legs left for portables.

What I'd like to see is a credible report on the processor speeds. We all know the 970 is capable of 2.5 GHz (albeit very hot)... so does this mean that we'll have 1.6 1.8 2.0? Duals? I'm assuming the above in duals, but does anyone have a creible source that can give some details aside from my speculation? I'd assume that if they can crank out hot 2.5 GHz 970 now, that they will wait for the second batch of PM's to put in 2.5's. After all, the real world performance of these machines will be far surpassing their GHz number.

AllenPSU
Apr 10, 2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by barkmonster
I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

I wonder if the word "pipeline" or "bus" could be translated as Train.

wymer100
Apr 10, 2003, 10:36 AM
One of the main reasons that you don't see the major benefit with going from 4X to 8X AGP is the large amounts of video RAM on cards. With this much RAM, the cards don't need to go back through the AGP to access the system RAM. If we only had 8Mb of vRAM, going from 4X to 8X would make a difference.

Has anyone heard if Apple is going to use the dual RAM sets to achieve the 6.4Gb/sec throughput? Memory bandwidth has been a major bottleneck over the past few years. Getting an ~5X increase in memory bandwidth might be huge. Especially combined with the increases in main bus and processor speeds.:)

I envision that the 970 (in powermacs) will be introduced at WWDC alongside 10.3. The 970 will be available sometime this summer with 10.2 and running in 32-bit mode. If you want to run with a 64-bit OS, you will have to upgrade to 10.3 or wait until Fall. Announcing a 64-bit environment at WWDC would give developers a leg-up in updating their programs for 10.3 in the Fall. Don't forget that there is precedent for major hardware announcements at WWDC. Wasn't the rev.A iMac announced there in '98? Pushing WWDC to June gave Apple enough time to get the new powermacs into production for at least an introduction.

firestarter
Apr 10, 2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by barkmonster

I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

Not really a mistake. It's assuming 'PCI Express' is a French phrase - and trying to translate into English. 'NCV Express train' therefore = 'PCI Express'

3G4N
Apr 10, 2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
...what sort of boost do you think they'll give to the PM line? Dual cores?

Imagine a dual core PowerBook.....that would be so very nice ;)

D

How many times must it be said?
The ppc970 has a single core.
No dual cores!

Repeat after me...

Dual Processor - yes.
Dual Core - no.

wrylachlan
Apr 10, 2003, 11:50 AM
The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising. And to have a translator chip on the motherboard that translates the 970's bus into hypertransport is rediculous, because the main selling point of hypertransport is that it reduces the number of support chips necessary to enable multiprocessor setups. Going through a translator chip would also create a great deal of latency which isn't good.

sorry folks, no hypertransport.

freundt
Apr 10, 2003, 12:00 PM
I hope they are wrong about the 970 in the powerbooks.
If you think about it, the only area apple is really competitive with the windows world is in the lap top arena. I think we all will agree that apple is now loosing ground in this arena to the new generation of mobile Pentium processors. I know everyone says it's about the os and not the speed - but a majority of consumers, and more importantly reviewers, *will* make a point about the speed of the chip. If apple let's the PowerBook lag at around 1-1.2 ghz then they will continue to loose what little ground they have gained. I know I haven't bought a PowerBook due to the fact I feel they are currently underpowered and will be *painfully* underpowered in two years. (considering it cost so much, it would have to last me at least 3 years.)

However, that being said, it seems to me like apple has no qualms about loosing ground - just look at the i-pod. Read any article in a financial or business magazine about the i-pod, and they will all state how much not having the lower end i-pods for sale is hurting apple. I know Apple is all about the big unveilings but-* bad analogy ahead *- but it feels like they are drowning in a sea, surrounded by life preservers, but are ignoring them, waiting for a big ol' cruise-liner to come along.

*Whew* I've lurked long enough and felt it was time for my first post.

anyways,
_F

macrumors12345
Apr 10, 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by cubist
Isn't that a really fast train in France? I wish we had them in US. (Maybe we'll get them now that there is so much uproar about airport security...)

You are thinking of the TGV, or "train à grande vitesse," which translates into something like "train at great speed." Revenue service is at 186 mph (300 kph); it also holds the world speed record (for a conventional train) of 320.2 mph (515 kph?).

Yes, it would be great if the US had real high speed rail that was comparable to the TGV, which is, quite frankly, the world standard (say what you want about their foreign policy, but those French really know how to build railroads!). But unfortunately we always want to do everything on the cheap over here, and in the end you get what you pay for (and sometimes not even that). Thus our transportation network is hopelessly congested and slow...

But yeah, I don't know exactly what it was that got translated into NCV Express Train...anybody here speak French?

seamuskrat
Apr 10, 2003, 12:35 PM
It is beginning to be clear from the variety of rumors that the 970 will appear as an option in the new Powermacs.
I think there is also good reason to suspect that the 970 will NOT appear in powerbooks just yet.
Figure Apple is getting some of the first production runs of 970's They have a fairly large margin of error in terms of heat when placed in a desktop. But I imagine the engineers at Apple would really like to see some real world action and maybe even a second revision of the 970 before implementing into a laptop model. According to the specs (and of course, this is STILL ambigous) the 970 produces less heat and consumes less watts than the G4 equivilent. What the spec sheets don't say(If you know where it may be stated- post a link) is what mature of heat sink, cooling source, etc. I can say that most early chip designs often have HUGE heat sinks and rather dramatic cooling on board for testing. At this late stage I am sure the folks at IBM have gone pst 'theoretical' temps and wattage estimates and have real numbers, but they have not yet published the definitive specs at the shipping speeds just yet. I am sure at the requets of Apple, IBM is keeping details underwraps for a bit longer until Cupertino is ready to announce to the world the new chip.
Back to the powerbooks. I have said before that redesigning a laptop does take mroe time and ffort than a desktop. Historically, Apple does new chipsets and motherboard architectures with desktops first. The argument about the G3 is a bit off, as the original G3 laptop was really a PPC variant rigged with a G3 an is not even OS X compatible. We have decent G4 laptops. With the newest chip from Moto (maybe) arriving soon, we will probably see some 1.0 to 1.2 Ghz speeds from a laptop. But I just do not see Apple having the enginneering abilities to base an entire laptop board on pre-production chips.
Also, I think with the first rev, we will be slightly less impressed with the G4 vs 970 performance per Mhz ratio. Many factors make up this performance difference and although I am sure the 970 will be a great chip in first run, it will not be like a '3 gig G4' by any stretch. So, the powerbook line will lag in performance but not so dramatically the sales will plumment. But that is all opinion, so we can only wait.
The obvious delay of an Al 15 inch is curious. I take that as one of two things. 1) I am wrong and it will have the 970 and be released in the next 4 months. *** 2) They know that the 970 fever is rising and did not want to release a 15 without a 970 prior to announcing the desktops. //*** The mere fact the 17 and 12 are relatively new and barely shipping in mass quantity leads one to think the 15 will NOt be the flagship and odd model out there with a 970. I think come year end we will surely see a migration of laptops to 970 but not immediately.

As for desktops and Hypertyransport. Apple has been involved with this for a while. It makes a world of sense to introduce it with a new chip. But from what I have read, the 970 shoul dhave onboard HT ability and that is not yet mentioned (again, maybe at Apple's request). So who knows yet. As for FW 800/APE/AGP8 I think those are givens for a new model accross the model line. If the new iPods really will have USB2 then we will probably see an option at elast for USB 2 on Macs as well. I know that at my local computer retailer its harder to fine large capacity drives with FW these days and USB 2 seems to be the 'choosen one'.

ANyhow, just speculation and opinion. Hopefully we will all be surprised and have it all.

macrumors12345
Apr 10, 2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by wrylachlan
The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising.

Yeah, I am kind of skeptical about this too. But theoretically the chip doesn't need to have onboard hypertransport in order for the motherboard to use hypertransport, right? For example, the Nvidia NForce 2 motherboard for Athlon uses Hypertransport to connect the Northbridge and the Southbridge, but the Athlon certainly doesn't have any onboard Hypertransport links. So I guess in theory Apple could use it to connect other components (besides the 970), although I'm still skeptical, because it seems very un-Apple-like to be using all of these off-the-shelf technologies so readily... ;-)

zigi
Apr 10, 2003, 01:50 PM
It seems doubtful that IBM would implement Hypertransport support in their own processors as they are not one of the HyperTransport consortium members; although Apple is. IBM is much more likely to make use of the RapidIO technology as they are one of the steering companies...

http://www.rapidio.org/about/list

Anyway, let's just hope they use something that can give them more of an edge.

Death2PCs
Apr 10, 2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Makes sense about the Powerbook - I'm wondering, though about the .9 micron chips. If they're coming out in 2004, what sort of boost do you think they'll give to the PM line? Dual cores?

Imagine a dual core PowerBook.....that would be so very nice ;)

D


Originally posted by 3G4N
How many times must it be said?
The ppc970 has a single core.
No dual cores!

Repeat after me...

Dual Processor - yes.
Dual Core - no.


calm down man... he said "imagine." he didnt say anything that is will happen.

MacCoaster
Apr 10, 2003, 02:46 PM
Stupid machine translations.

Yes, that NGV train thing is a mistake. It's called machine translation.

It's really PCI express, aka PCI-X.

- Les 2 cartes mères des Ordinateurs PPC 970 qui arrivent, auront de l'AGP 8x et de l'hypertransport. En revanche, début 2004, lors du renouvellement de la gamme, le PCI express fera son apparition.

- Contrairement à ce que l'on a beaucoup entendu, il n'y aura pas de Powerbook PPC 970 avant le second trimestre 2004, où arrivera le PPC 970 0,09 microns. La version actuelle à 0,13, chauffe trop. De plus la combinaison hypertransport/PPC 970 donnerait une autonomie nettement insuffisante.

Human translation by me:

The two motherboards of the PPC 970 computers which are arriving will have 8x AGP and Hypertransport. On the other hand, at the beginning of 2004, during the range's renewal, the PCI-X will make its appearance.

Contrary to what one has heard much, there will not be any PPC 970 Powerbooks before the second quarter of 2004, when the .09 microns PPC 970 will arrive. The current version with .13 microns are too hot. Moreover, the HT/PPC970 combination would give a definitely insufficient autonomy.

From Win to Mac
Apr 10, 2003, 03:17 PM
Vive les Français... and there Mac spying.

Cabrewolf
Apr 10, 2003, 03:40 PM
I question any rumor site (maBeou?, and Macosrumors, etc) that use the excuse that the 970 is to hot for portables. It is cooler than the G4 and also smaller. I have yet to see a logical reason that the powerbooks will not have the 970's first or atleast at the same time as the powermacs.

One logical reason supporting 970's being in powerbooks first is that IBM may have run the first production run as slower 1-1.2 GHz chips. It is not unusual to run the first round with toned down speeds. 1-1.2 Ghz would not be fast enough for a powermac, but would be perfect for a powerbook.

Wolf

G4scott
Apr 10, 2003, 04:50 PM
Man... So many new people...

I'll start out by saying that the 970 will not make its debut in PowerBooks. It will be about a year behind the desktop. Apple just made major revisions to their laptop line, and with a 15" Aluminum G4 PowerBook coming out any day now, it'll be longer until we see 970's in laptops. The main reason is because the chip is so fast, it requires the mother of all motherboards (of Macs, that is...). It's a completely new architecture, and I'm pretty sure Apple will make sure it works well in desktops with no problems before putting it in a laptop. With a front side bus running at up to 900mhz, it wouldn't be a very pretty thing in a laptop, initially. Besides, not many laptops need a 64-bit processor. It's be a waste of resources, and it would cost a lot.

As for the 970 using HyperTransport, notice that the 970 supports up to 6.4gbps of data. Strangely enough, HyperTransport also supports this much at it's maximum performance. Remember that IBM said that the 970 would have a vector processing unit with 162 instructions, but didn't say it would be alti-vec until recently. The numbers are there for HyperTransport, now we just need to wait for IBM to say something. The thing about it is that IBM only make the processor, so IBM might not have to say anything about it. I imagine it would be up to Apple to decide about HyperTransport.

Although the actual chip won't heat up as much as a 1.4ghz G4, the chipset required to take advantage of the 970 would cause heat issues, and run down battery performance drastically.

I'd just like to see the 970's in desktops at up to, if not over 2Ghz. I know they'll rock, because they'll have an upgraded mobo, with superfast bus speeds, memory speeds, and everything. I wonder what kind of memory they'l use? If they use a 900Mhz FSB, they'd need some serious memory... I imagine they might downgrade it to a 400mhz DDR FSB, which would severly cripple the processor, but otherwise, RAM would cost too much...

ffakr
Apr 10, 2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by wrylachlan
The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising. And to have a translator chip on the motherboard that translates the 970's bus into hypertransport is rediculous, because the main selling point of hypertransport is that it reduces the number of support chips necessary to enable multiprocessor setups. Going through a translator chip would also create a great deal of latency which isn't good.

sorry folks, no hypertransport.

Perhaps you should read up on Hypertransport a bit more. Hypertransport was NOT designed to interface between processors and chipsets. It is a technology that was designed to move data through the system. In a traditional system, you might think of HT as a good technology to tie the northbridge to the southbridge. AMD uses it to join the Media and the Graphics chips in the nForce board.

The Hypertransport consortium... (http://www.hypertransport.org/faqs.html#q01)

You don't know what you are talking about.

MacCoaster
Apr 10, 2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
I imagine they might downgrade it to a 400mhz DDR FSB, which would severly cripple the processor, but otherwise, RAM would cost too much...
Why would it cripple the processor? Just put dual channel 400MHz DDR memory in the Power Mac. 800 MHz effective.

macrumors12345
Apr 10, 2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Cabrewolf
I question any rumor site (maBeou?, and Macosrumors, etc) that use the excuse that the 970 is to hot for portables. It is cooler than the G4 and also smaller.
Wolf

No, we do NOT have any evidence to believe that it is cooler than the G4. Can we PLEASE put this myth to rest? It has been disproven so many times that I have lost count. Just because you WANT something to be true doesn't mean that it IS true.

The PPC 970 dissipates 19 watts at 1.2 Ghz as per IBM docs. The current 7455 (G4) dissipates about 14 watts at 1 Ghz as per Motorola docs. There is an earlier version of the 7455 (as in, over 12 months old) that dissipated around 21 watts at 1 Ghz, but we have no particular reason to believe that that chip is being used in the portables.

Check the facts yourself:

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf

http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/PPCSALESFACT.pdf

As a word of advice, I would distrust sites that claim a 970 Powerbook IS going to be released simultaneously with 970 towers, not won't that say it isn't.

alxths
Apr 10, 2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by barkmonster
Quick google translation :
I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

My french isn't too great, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be "...PCI express(or express PCI) will make its appearance."

Frobozz
Apr 10, 2003, 10:09 PM
I do believe there is factual information to support a possible PB capable 970. Heat shouldn't be significantly worse than existing G4 chips. It's indeed possible. After all, PC makers put super hot chips in their laptops all the time. It's not insane in the PC world for 40+ watt chips in a laptop. The below is a 2001 article from Tom's Hardware on the heat issue:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20010917/index.html

For a look at heat output on pre-production 970's (NOT the same specs/watts reported in recent rumors) and the G4e (oct 2002), take a look at this ArsTechnica article:

http://arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html

Where I _do_ agree with the skepticism is WHEN. I don't think we'll see the 970 PB until Jan. '04, and for good reason... the PowerMacs need to take the throne for speed. Simple.

I think it's safe to say that until June, we're all doing a great deal of speculation on (somewhat) outdated documents. Most docs in publication right now do not match that of current rumors. You can either choose to believe the rumors, or not, but so many sources have said that the 970 will come in above reports speeds (2.5 possible, not 1.8, regardless of watts), and user wattage reported in current docs, that I choose to believe them. :-)

Flynnstone
Apr 10, 2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by wrylachlan
The bit about hypertransport has to be bogus. IBM hasn't said anything about the 970 chip having onboard hypertransport and its a feature that if they had it they would be advertising. And to have a translator chip on the motherboard that translates the 970's bus into hypertransport is rediculous, because the main selling point of hypertransport is that it reduces the number of support chips necessary to enable multiprocessor setups. Going through a translator chip would also create a great deal of latency which isn't good.

sorry folks, no hypertransport.

Better check out this website :
http://www.hypertransport.org

I suspect that the dual unidirectional 32 buses from the 970 is Hypertransport. This would fit in well with IBM and AMD relationship. AMD was the originator of HyperTransport.
Note HyperTransport peak throughput is 12.8 GBs, the rumors are quoting 6.4 GBs, exactly half.
So it looks like its Hypertransport and some extra room to grow !:p

NavyIntel007
Apr 10, 2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Victoriatus
and I thought one survey discovered that Mac users are better educated than their Windows using fellows.

Yeah but we're trying to get switchers. You have to downgrade your expectations for the weak minded.

Flynnstone
Apr 10, 2003, 10:43 PM
With the PC world turning to Centrinos for laptops. The battery lie looks very good in the PC arena.
Apple could counter easily (I hope) using the Motorola 7457 or 7447. That is if Motorola can ship them ! The 7457 is very close (if not simple) drop in for the 7455. No performance gain at the same clock speed, but definitely lower power (0.18 to 0.13 um)
So Apple could improve their battery life in there G4 laptops by simply moving to the 7457:p

The 7457 dissipates 7.5 W Typical, 12.5 W Max at 1 GHz.
The 7455 dissipates 15 W Typical, 22 W Max at 1 Ghz.

Sol
Apr 10, 2003, 11:33 PM
And here I was getting excited at the thought of Apple making iTrains. :(

On the other hand, to read that 8X AGP and HyperTransport may come to the Mac is great. Well, great until some moron with a self-built PeeCee starts posting on MacRumours that there is a new 12X AGP and Turbo-HyperTransport that will be supposedly supported by Windows. The cycle of hype will continue then as it always has and some people will never be satisfied. Not me though; no Sir, I have faith in Apple's products and the money I have spent on a G3 iMac and a dual G4 PowerMac were money well spent. Whatever they do with the 970, I am sure that Apple will make computers that go the distance, as they always have, and I for one am looking forward to the day PowerBooks use these exciting new processors.

MacQuest
Apr 11, 2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by freundt
I think we all will agree that apple is now loosing ground in this arena to the new generation of mobile Pentium processors.

Uhhh...NO.

dekator
Apr 11, 2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by barkmonster
Quick google translation :

...

I wonder what the NCV express train is, a mistake in the translation ?

I would definitely call it a mistake in translation because the French just says PCI express... which you'll know. No NCV, no train ;-)
Wasn't hypertransport rumored to be included with the PPC 970 anyway ?
It would sure be good because the PPC 970 bus is said to get a lot of traffic, e.g. not just CPU calls but other instructions, too.

I think they're probably right about the inclusion in PBs, the battery life ("autonomy") would just be too short with 0.13...

dongmin
Apr 11, 2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Flynnstone
With the PC world turning to Centrinos for laptops. The battery lie looks very good in the PC arena.
Apple could counter easily (I hope) using the Motorola 7457 or 7447. That is if Motorola can ship them ! The 7457 is very close (if not simple) drop in for the 7455. No performance gain at the same clock speed, but definitely lower power (0.18 to 0.13 um)
So Apple could improve their battery life in there G4 laptops by simply moving to the 7457:p

The 7457 dissipates 7.5 W Typical, 12.5 W Max at 1 GHz.
The 7455 dissipates 15 W Typical, 22 W Max at 1 Ghz.

Personally I'd like to see Apple move both the Powerbook and Powermac line to the 970 but I'm not sure the 970, in its existing design, has much headroom for the Powerbooks. The 19 watts at 1.2 ghz is at a lower voltage than the 1.8 ghz. It'll be hard to push the 970 beyond 1.2 ghz without upping the voltage and hence making it too hot for a laptop.

My bet is that Apple will keep the PBs with the G4s for the time being, but may introduce a dual 7457 machine, possibly a dual 1.2 ghz, as a stopgap measure. Of course, would Apple invest in a new motherboard (to accomodate dual CPUs) if it's only a short-term solution?

MacCoaster
Apr 11, 2003, 08:09 PM
Doesn't anyone READ?!

In my earlier post, I stated that the translation was in error and it meant PCI-Express, which is PCI-X.

PCI-X: http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/
PCI-X 266/533 (basically PCI-X 2.0): http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pcix_20/

In fact, I gave an HUMAN translation. :rolleyes:

Snowy_River
Apr 11, 2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
Man... So many new people...

I'll start out by saying that the 970 will not make its debut in PowerBooks. It will be about a year behind the desktop.

You know, it's really interesting to me that those that are advocates of the possibility of 970 based PowerBooks tend to say just that: it is a possibility. On the other hand, those that are nay-sayers seem to be tending to speak in such absolute terms. So, do they know something that we don't? Are these actually Apple employees who really know?

If they're not, I'd suggest that they speak a little more carefully. Just because you don't think that Apple will use the 970 in PowerBooks immediately doesn't mean they won't.

Originally posted by macrumors12345

Just because you WANT something to be true doesn't mean that it IS true.

I know that. But just because you say it isn't true doesn't mean that it isn't.

While I will freely say that I don't know whether the 970s will be used in PowerBooks immediately, I honestly believe that there are good reasons to believe that they will. In any event, I look forward to seeing what comes...

minux
Apr 12, 2003, 09:25 AM
It seems like everyone is using my predictions.

Mike

macrumors12345
Apr 12, 2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Frobozz
After all, PC makers put super hot chips in their laptops all the time. It's not insane in the PC world for 40+ watt chips in a laptop. The below is a 2001 article from Tom's Hardware on the heat issue:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20010917/index.html


I saw no reference to mobile processors in the link you provided. Regardless, I wouldn't use the P4-M as a role-model for what a mobile chip should be. According to Intel, it typically dissipates 30 watts when running at full clockspeed...and at this power drain the laptops only last about 1 hr 15 min! You can get 2 hours out of the P4-M by cranking the clock speed way down (1.2 Ghz...slower real world performance than the PB G4). I would guess that a 1.2 Ghz 970 (19 watts) would not be able to get more than 2 hours of battery life unless IBM has added some power saving features which allow the core voltage (and hence clock speed) to fall even further below 1.1v (we have no indication that they have done this, though we don't know that they haven't). So yes, it is certainly possible to put a 970 in a PB, but do you really *want* the Powerbook to have the battery life of a P-4M laptop?

As for the "rumors" of lower power consumption for the 970 than IBM has stated, I haven't seen any, and if I did, I would put no faith in them. Even the "easy" rumors (e.g. has it entered production yet) are typically wrong, so it really would take blind faith to believe that they will report esoteric technical details accurately.


For a look at heat output on pre-production 970's (NOT the same specs/watts reported in recent rumors) and the G4e (oct 2002), take a look at this ArsTechnica article:

http://arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html


We've already disproven these figures using Motorola's and IBM's own documents. Plus it would be mathematically impossible for the PB G4 to get more than 1.5 hours of battery life out of a 55-61 watt-hour battery if the processor alone (G4 @ 1 Ghz) were consuming 30 watts. Simply put, the Ars Technica figures are wrong. I'm sure it was accidental, but they are wrong nonetheless.


Where I _do_ agree with the skepticism is WHEN. I don't think we'll see the 970 PB until Jan. '04, and for good reason... the PowerMacs need to take the throne for speed. Simple.


Yes, I agree with this. Eventually, the 970 will almost surely appear in a PB. But it is very unlikely to happen at the same time as it appears in the towers. At the very least, I think it will take a later version of the .13 micron 970, if not waiting for the .09 micron 970. It would be nice to be wrong about this, but I just don't see it happening...


I think it's safe to say that until June, we're all doing a great deal of speculation on (somewhat) outdated documents.

And this will somehow change after June? We will stop speculating on this site after that? ;-)

Most docs in publication right now do not match that of current rumors.

Yes, and most rumors (probably 90%) are false, whereas most published documents are not. That is the difference.

and user wattage reported in current docs, that I choose to believe them. :-)

That is you choice, but in my experience you are just setting yourself up for disappointment!

But even at 1.8 Ghz and only released initially in the towers, I think there is plenty to be excited about. I actually think that the 970 will be more competitive than the SPEC marks indicate. I would guess that what the IBM rep said at MPF and they will be competitive with the Intel at "twice the clock speed" (i.e. a 1.8 Ghz 970 will compare favorably with a 3.6 Ghz P4 rather than a 2.8-3.0 Ghz P4, which is what the SPEC numbers would imply). The reason is that the 970 literally scores twice as high as the G4 at an equivalent Mhz: the 1 Ghz G4 scores 300 and 185 on SPECint and SPECfp respectively, and a 1 Ghz 970 scores over 550 and 600 on SPECint and SPECfp respectively. So according to SPEC, the 970 will easily be twice as fast as the G4 on average. Therefore, if the 970 is *not* twice as fast as the P4 at a given clock speed, then the implication is that the G4 is actually slower PER CLOCK CYCLE than the Pentium 4 - i.e., we have the Mhz myth in reverse!!! But nobody seriously questions that the G4 is more efficient than the P4 per clock cycle, it's just that it's not twice as efficient (so a 2.8 Ghz P4 is faster than a 1.4 Ghz G4, but it's not twice as fast).

So if we accept the notion that the G4 is at least as efficient as the P4 PER CLOCK CYCLE (and a myriad of real world benchmarks confirm that, on average, the G4 is actually faster than the P4 per clock cycle...it just doesn't clock nearly as high), then the one of two things must be true:

1) For whatever reason, SPEC does not provide an entirely accurate comparison BETWEEN the Pentium 4 and the PPC architecture. It's not off by an order magnitude, but for whatever reason it does seem to overstate the performance of the P4 by a non-trivial margin.
2) For whatever reason, SPEC does not provide an entirely accurate comparison between processors WITHIN the SAME processor architecture, i.e. it is inaccurate in comparing the PPC 970 and the MPC 7455.

Clearly, 1) seems far more reasonable than 2). I don't think SPEC is a terrible benchmark, but obviously either 1) or 2) must be true. Both cannot be false, because then we have a contradiction. And given my choice, I would strongly suspect that 1) is far more likely to be true than 2)...it would be bizarre to think that SPEC somehow is a more accurate benchmark when comparing an x86 processor to a PPC processor than comparing one PPC processor to another. So I suspect that the 970 will be pretty competitive even when Intel switches to the 90 nm process for the P4.

Of course this is just talking scalar integer/fp. In terms of vector processing and MP aware apps or generally multitasking, the 970 will smoke the P4 (assuming Apple releases at least one MP 970 config).

macrumors12345
Apr 12, 2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
So, do they know something that we don't? Are these actually Apple employees who really know?

I'm certainly not. But I think we can be pretty confident based simply on published facts and common sense that the PPC 970 will arrive in towers significantly before it arrives in Powerbooks. If I'm wrong, that will be great, but I doubt that I will be. For better or for worse, it has historically never been a bad bet to be less optimistic than the rumors are suggesting. But hey, at least I am pretty optimistic about the performance (see above)...

G4scott
Apr 13, 2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
You know, it's really interesting to me that those that are advocates of the possibility of 970 based PowerBooks tend to say just that: it is a possibility. On the other hand, those that are nay-sayers seem to be tending to speak in such absolute terms. So, do they know something that we don't? Are these actually Apple employees who really know?

If they're not, I'd suggest that they speak a little more carefully. Just because you don't think that Apple will use the 970 in PowerBooks immediately doesn't mean they won't.

If you bothered to read the rest of my post, you would've seen why I said this.

Apple just released new PowerBooks, and a 15" G4 PowerBook is on the way. These are also newly designed PowerBooks. The design usually changes when they go from one architecture to another. Just look at the G3-G4 transition. Sure, they might be able to squeeze a 970 into the current 17" or 15" PowerBooks, but knowing Apple, they'd want a new design, and the new designs of the 12" and 17" PowerBooks are going to go through at least 1 or 2 revisions.

Also, if you look at the difference from when the G4 was introduced in desktops and when it was introduced in laptops, you'll see an almost one and a half year delay. The desktops were released in August of 1999, and the G4 PowerBooks were released in January of 2001.

Based on these two reasons (1. It would be marketing suicide to release faster notebooks just months after their flagship model started shipping, and 2. There is usually a delay in the time from when processor is introduced in deskops and when it is released into notebooks.) if is safe to conclude that 970 PowerBooks are going to be behind the desktops until at least 2004.

Just trust me. You'd be pissed if you just bought a 17" PowerBook, and Apple introduced faster ones in July...

Flynnstone
Apr 14, 2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by MacCoaster
Doesn't anyone READ?!

In my earlier post, I stated that the translation was in error and it meant PCI-Express, which is PCI-X.

PCI-X: http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/
PCI-X 266/533 (basically PCI-X 2.0): http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pcix_20/

In fact, I gave an HUMAN translation. :rolleyes:

PCI-X and PCI Express are NOT the same thing.
PCI-X is a parallel based system and PCI Express is serial based.
Is the translation PCI-X or PCI Express?
I think PCI Express is more logical.

147
Apr 15, 2003, 01:44 PM
What I think after reading all this is that:

The 15" powerbook redesign has been delayed because it waits for the CPU to arrive. This may be because Apple is:
[list=1]
waiting for MOTOROLA to be able to provide a 7457 G4 in quantity
redesigning the motherboard to accept dual CPU (G4). But then don't we still have heating issues?
It awaits the 970 -aka G5- that it will use at a lower speed - 1,2 Ghz or even 1Ghz- in order to not affect battery autonomy too much.
[/list=1]
Anyway, there must be a reason for the 15" delay. Surely Apple should have announced newer flavors of these by now.

This seems even more obvious to me when 2003 was named "Year of the Laptop" by Apple. And also "Apple's best year ever" by Jobs. The laptops just can't remain with 1GHZ G4 for another year and a half! No way.

freundt
Apr 15, 2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by 147
What I think after reading all this is that:
...
This seems even more obvious to me when 2003 was named "Year of the Laptop" by Apple. And also "Apple's best year ever" by Jobs. The laptops just can't remain with 1GHZ G4 for another year and a half! No way.

Exactly what I'm thinking. The new Intel laptop chips are getting tons of ink - unless apple does something outstanding, they are going to loose a lot of ground they gained.

And not to mention the fact that I can;t wait to buy a new 15" powerbook. :)

cubist
Apr 17, 2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Flynnstone
PCI-X and PCI Express are NOT the same thing.
PCI-X is a parallel based system and PCI Express is serial based.
Is the translation PCI-X or PCI Express?
I think PCI Express is more logical.

From what I've read, PCI Express is not backward-compatible, and PCI-X is. I hope they would use PCI-X... so naturally they probably won't.

GeneR
Apr 21, 2003, 11:45 PM
What's the point of calling this the "Year" of the notebook computer if they aren't going to put the 970 in there? Hmmm. Hmmmm. HmmmM!!

:mad: