New Mac OS X 10.5 (9A283) Leopard Seed [Archive]

MacRumors

Oct 12, 2006, 10:25 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has seeded a new version of Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) to developers. Apple first previewed and seeded (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/08/20060807161421.shtml) Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) at the Worldwide Developer's Conference (WWDC) in August.

This same build was later seeded to Apple Developer Connection developers (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060919114413.shtml), with one minor online update in September (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060901021041.shtml) bringing it to build 9A241e.

Today's update is only available for ADC developers (Select and Premier) and is intended as a fresh-install (rather than updating the previous build of Leopard).

Changes listed from the WWDC seed include:

- new Parental Controls preference pane for content filtering, apps, and curfews
- Significant user interface changes to iCal
- 3D audio cues to indicate locations of items on the screen in the VoiceOver screen reader
- Basic editing in Preview

There are still several known issues documented.

Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) is expected to be released in Spring of 2007.

[[ digg this ]] (http://www.digg.com/apple/Mac_OS_X_10_5_build_9A283_Seeded_to_developers)

p0intblank

Oct 12, 2006, 10:26 PM

Every update is another step closer to Leopard's release. :D

zwida

Oct 12, 2006, 10:28 PM

Excellent. Can't wait to hear feedback about the new iCal interface, etc.

virus1

Oct 12, 2006, 10:31 PM

downloading now.. i am guessing this is thier real deal, with the exciting new desktop, maybe the new intro... well i hope so anyway.. :D

evilgEEk

Oct 12, 2006, 10:36 PM

So anyone think there's even a remote chance that Leopard could be available at MWSF '07? ;)

I know, probably wishful thinking, but it would be pretty sweet!

05elstonc

Oct 12, 2006, 10:38 PM

I certainly believe it is a possibility. Under promise, over deliver. Move to Intel...anyone remember that time frame. Steve came in a wee bit a head of schedule, 6 months, not too shabby.

kainjow

Oct 12, 2006, 10:41 PM

Excellent. Can't wait to hear feedback about the new iCal interface, etc.
Me too. Hopefully it has the new 'unified' look.

cantthinkofone

Oct 12, 2006, 10:41 PM

WOOOT! developers.... DEVELOP THE CRAP OUT OF IT, AND QUICK, i want it :D

p0intblank

Oct 12, 2006, 10:41 PM

I would love to see Leopard be released at MWSF '07. That would be the ultimate surprise! My hopes aren't that high, though. New iLife features are enough to make me happy. :)

andiwm2003

Oct 12, 2006, 10:46 PM

is there somewhere in vegas a bet going who's first? vista or leopard? and who has more bugs at release day?

dmw007

Oct 12, 2006, 10:47 PM

Every update is another step closer to Leopard's release. :D

I know, I can not wait to get my hands on a copy of Mac OS X 10.5! :D :)

mrwilly123

Oct 12, 2006, 10:47 PM

3D audio cues? How would you get anything above 1D audio cues?

Stridder44

Oct 12, 2006, 10:50 PM

New Finder also reported missing.

/I can't wait to see it

Chef Medeski

Oct 12, 2006, 10:51 PM

3D audio cues? How would you get anything above 1D audio cues?
Dolby Digital Surround. If you just have a R/L channel.... its only 1 D. But since Dolby has 5.... 2 back... 3 forward... with the center forward and i different height.... u can get almost 3D sound. I think its a really cool features that dissapointingly won't get taken advantage of enough. Some programs should definetly utilize that. It would be great for a simple maze game where like as ur mouse moves u hear where its going. It'd really be cool beans.

Lixivial

Oct 12, 2006, 10:51 PM

3D audio cues? How would you get anything above 1D audio cues?

I presume it's a similar notion to the way video games utilize "3D stereo sound" -- the cue will be in relation to the position to the item's placement on the screen. (As it says in the original post.)

So if you have a window on the extreme left side of your screen, you'll hear VoiceOver out of the left speaker; if it's in the middle, you'll hear it equally in both, etc.

EDIT: Heeeeee. Much better explanation posted quicker than my meager attempts. Clearly Chef Medeski is a much better person than I should ever hope to be!

Adam Betts

Oct 12, 2006, 10:53 PM

iTunes 7-ized iCal interface

*shudder*

samh004

Oct 12, 2006, 10:54 PM

I'd rather Leopard was released later with fewer bugs and more stability, than sooner to compete with Vista (that isn't going to be adopted at the same speed anyway).

In relation to the basic editing features in preview - does that mean PDF docs opened can be re-written etc.. or am I on completely the wrong track ?

I can't wait for a unified look, it's a mess right now.

dmw007

Oct 12, 2006, 10:54 PM

Dolby Digital Surround. If you just have a R/L channel.... its only 1 D. But since Dolby has 5.... 2 back... 3 forward... with the center forward and i different height.... u can get almost 3D sound. I think its a really cool features that dissapointingly won't get taken advantage of enough. Some programs should definetly utilize that. It would be great for a simple maze game where like as ur mouse moves u hear where its going. It'd really be cool beans.

Wow, that does sound like an amazing feature. :)

edcrosay

Oct 12, 2006, 10:55 PM

Can someone post a screenshot of the new iCal... if it's allowed?

Peace

Oct 12, 2006, 10:57 PM

Can someone post a screenshot of the new iCal... if it's allowed?

To do so would break the NDA.

samh004

Oct 12, 2006, 10:59 PM

iTunes 7-ized iCal interface

*shudder*

Better than the current iCal interface though ;)

Chef Medeski

Oct 12, 2006, 10:59 PM

I presume it's a similar notion to the way video games utilize "3D stereo sound" -- the cue will be in relation to the position to the item's placement on the screen. (As it says in the original post.)

So if you have a window on the extreme left side of your screen, you'll hear VoiceOver out of the left speaker; if it's in the middle, you'll hear it equally in both, etc.

EDIT: Heeeeee. Much better explanation posted quicker than my meager attempts. Clearly Chef Medeski is a much better person than I should ever hope to be!
Well... I'm not the Demi-god.... yet :D

joeboy_45101

Oct 12, 2006, 11:00 PM

I'd rather Leopard was released later with fewer bugs and more stability, than sooner to compete with Vista (that isn't going to be adopted at the same speed anyway).

Thank you! Mac OS Tiger has been a really crappy experience for me. If I didn't have to lose some "tiger only" stuff I would switch back to Panther in a heartbeat.

dmw007

Oct 12, 2006, 11:02 PM

Well... I'm not the Demi-god.... yet :D

What are you waiting for? Becoming a demi/contributor is the best possible way to spend $25. :D :)

mkjellman

Oct 12, 2006, 11:05 PM

what i'd like to know, even though someone would have to break the NDA further, is if the Finder has the same 10.4.6 string in its "get info" information. I think that another seed with the same build of Finder means that something big must be in the works.

and yes, posting screenshots of iCal would be great for all but it is strictly against the NDA to even post that a new build has been distributed.

Analog Kid

Oct 12, 2006, 11:07 PM

3D audio cues? How would you get anything above 1D audio cues?
Headphones can reproduce 3D sound... Two speakers to feed the two holes in your head. Time and filter the signals properly and you can put a sound anywhere...

I'll hold back on how amazing the human hearing system is-- but if you ever get the chance to research it, do so.

Adurbe

Oct 12, 2006, 11:09 PM

cant wait for the new toys :D :D

andrewag

Oct 12, 2006, 11:21 PM

I'm pretty excited about a new finder. With vista having such a cool (okay, it's lots of eyecandy and that sells right?) interface it is making aqua kind of dull.

I'm positive Apple can come up with something that works but looks good and not just vista's eye candy.

edcrosay

Oct 12, 2006, 11:24 PM

To do so would break the NDA.
That's what I figured.
I wish I was a developer.

Some_Big_Spoon

Oct 12, 2006, 11:24 PM

Well, for as little as has changed from 10.4 to 10.5, I'd put my bets on vista having more bugs.

is there somewhere in vegas a bet going who's first? vista or leopard? and who has more bugs at release day?

virus1

Oct 12, 2006, 11:25 PM

Headphones can reproduce 3D sound... Two speakers to feed the two holes in your head. Time and filter the signals properly and you can put a sound anywhere...

I'll hold back on how amazing the human hearing system is-- but if you ever get the chance to research it, do so.
erg not really. you do only have 2 holes in your head as you say, but your hearing is more advanced than that. your brain always factors in all the other elements, like your head position, so your brain notices and calculates the volumes of incoming sounds, so you can distinguish where things are in relation to you. obviously, your brain can't do that with headphones.

virus1

Oct 12, 2006, 11:31 PM

That's what I figured.
I wish I was a developer.
no worries. i can post when i get it installed, but i have another 7 hours of dwonloading.

ChrisA

Oct 12, 2006, 11:31 PM

3D audio cues? How would you get anything above 1D audio cues?

Stereo speakers. Most of use can tell if a sound is in front of us or behind or above or below and we only have two ears. You can make 3D recording with ony two channles but the playback geometry has to be near perfect. Synthetic sound cues are not recordings and it need not be perfect to work. All it would have to convey is any one of six basic directions and the users will all be trained to listen for it carfully and wiling to set up the speakers in exact locations. It might be helpfull to someone who is blind. I know some one who is and he can sometimes tell who enters a room and from where before the person speaks. If this is the target user then it need not be perfect or even natural sounding

dmw007

Oct 12, 2006, 11:32 PM

Well, for as little as has changed from 10.4 to 10.5, I'd put my bets on vista having more bugs.

That would be a safe bet, Vista is bound to have more bugs than Leopard. Then again, Apple tries to work out bugs before launching as OS, not after the release like M$. :D :)

sparkleytone

Oct 12, 2006, 11:32 PM

is there somewhere in vegas a bet going who's first? vista or leopard? and who has more bugs at release day?

vista is 'out' next month, so its way ahead of leopard. retail shelves, however, will see vista in january i believe.

i think we know the answer to the bugs contest :)

dmw007

Oct 12, 2006, 11:36 PM

vista is 'out' next month, so its way ahead of leopard. retail shelves, however, will see vista in january i believe.

Oh, did M$ finally decide to release Vista? ;) :D :rolleyes:

iris_failsafe

Oct 12, 2006, 11:36 PM

Stereo speakers. Most of use can tell if a sound is in front of us or behind or above or below and we only have two ears. You can make 3D recording with ony two channles but the playback geometry has to be near perfect. Synthetic sound cues are not recordings and it need not be perfect to work. All it would have to convey is any one of six basic directions and the users will all be trained to listen for it carfully and wiling to set up the speakers in exact locations. It might be helpfull to someone who is blind. I know some one who is and he can sometimes tell who enters a room and from where before the person speaks. If this is the target user then it need not be perfect or even natural sounding

Technically you need 3 speakers to produce 3d sound. Manufacures claim they can do it with 2 but they don't. You need a center channel to balance the sides.

Rocket850

Oct 12, 2006, 11:44 PM

Actually, LoopRumors (http://www.looprumors.com/LoopBlackPopup.php?leopard-available-at-mwsf-07) is reporting that Leopard might be released at Macworld next January.

thejadedmonkey

Oct 12, 2006, 11:49 PM

So anyone think there's even a remote chance that Leopard could be available at MWSF '07? ;)

I know, probably wishful thinking, but it would be pretty sweet!
Looproumors is saying it's coming for MWSF. I hope, but I'm not betting on it.

kainjow

Oct 12, 2006, 11:49 PM

Actually, LoopRumors (http://www.looprumors.com/LoopBlackPopup.php?leopard-available-at-mwsf-07) is reporting that Leopard might be released at Macworld next January.
If true, that will probably make 10.5.0 worse off than 10.4.0 was, and we all know how bad 10.4.0 was... :rolleyes:

Rocket850

Oct 12, 2006, 11:55 PM

If true, that will probably make 10.5.0 worse off than 10.4.0 was, and we all know how bad 10.4.0 was... :rolleyes:
Where's your sense of adventure?:D

thejadedmonkey

Oct 13, 2006, 12:00 AM

If true, that will probably make 10.5.0 worse off than 10.4.0 was, and we all know how bad 10.4.0 was... :rolleyes:
heh.. the best version of 10.4 was actually the 10.4.3 x86 build that got leaked onto torrents. Half the time, it didn't couldn't even keep iTunes open without crashing... on a legal computer.. of course...so I heard...:cool:

intlplby

Oct 13, 2006, 12:04 AM

actually, you only need 2 channels for 3d sound (X, Y .... and Z!!!)

Box of Matches (http://www.holophonic.ch/archivio/testaudio/Cereni%20-%20Holophonic.mp3)

you must listen with headphones though

without headphones you need 3 channels minimum for 2d sound (X, Y)

Rocketman

Oct 13, 2006, 12:11 AM

So anyone think there's even a remote chance that Leopard could be available at MWSF '07? ;)

I know, probably wishful thinking, but it would be pretty sweet!

I do.

What is the very first day of Spring 2007?

I say this is a case of UPOD.

Delivery of 10.5 1-07 with NEW HARDWARE!

Nuke Vista. Nuke other iTV competitor wannabees.

Rocketman

BWhaler

Oct 13, 2006, 12:15 AM

If true, that will probably make 10.5.0 worse off than 10.4.0 was, and we all know how bad 10.4.0 was... :rolleyes:

Agreed.

I said it then, I'll say it again: Apple take your time.

OS releases come once every 1.5 - 2 years. A little patience, getting more cool features, less bugs, and more speed is well worth the wait.

10.4.0 was terrible. Tiger, in general, has been one big yawn.

Let's hope Leopard gets Apple back on track on the OS innovation front.

BillyShears

Oct 13, 2006, 12:24 AM

If there are "top secret" features, I would guess they would have to be apps if it's going to be released at MWSF? There couldn't be significant changes to the operating system without developer testing before then. Unless they are going to introduce the "top secret" features after Vista has shipped (someone was saying that's next month?) But even that seems like a really quick testing phase for developers.

Some_Big_Spoon

Oct 13, 2006, 12:35 AM

Not much to report here. Other than a few cosmetic tweaks, it's the same as Tiger for me.

Hope it gets better than this on release.

mdntcallr

Oct 13, 2006, 12:44 AM

Yay, sounds like its getting closer!

OS X.5

:D

Idioteque

Oct 13, 2006, 01:04 AM

Cool, I submitted this to Digg. I wish it was for student developers too...

akac

Oct 13, 2006, 01:08 AM

Thankfully there will be. I know for a fact that the public build of Leopard is missing a lot of stuff. Most of it simply isn't finished and so not checked into the main Leopard tree. Some of it is simply not checked in because its not ready to be shown. Anyone with access to RADAR can find this info through some interesting searches.

inkhead

Oct 13, 2006, 01:30 AM

No, it's called Holophonic sound. You have 2 ears, and with headphones you can reproduce 3d sound using holophonics.

Technically you need 3 speakers to produce 3d sound. Manufacures claim they can do it with 2 but they don't. You need a center channel to balance the sides.

inkhead

Oct 13, 2006, 01:32 AM

As a select developer I don't think I get access to radar... however i've heard many rumors the new finder is last, after the UI is finalized, adding coverflow and different views options in the finder...

Thankfully there will be. I know for a fact that the public build of Leopard is missing a lot of stuff. Most of it simply isn't finished and so not checked into the main Leopard tree. Some of it is simply not checked in because its not ready to be shown. Anyone with access to RADAR can find this info through some interesting searches.

boer

Oct 13, 2006, 02:03 AM

3D audio cues? How would you get anything above 1D audio cues?

Are you not able to locate a source of sound behind you or above you? I sure can, and with only two standard ears. How about that!

swingerofbirch

Oct 13, 2006, 02:06 AM

Peace

Oct 13, 2006, 02:09 AM

RadarWeb is the bug reporting portal for Developers.

iMacZealot

Oct 13, 2006, 02:55 AM

I was thinking that it'd be really cool to release it early at MacWorld, but I highly doubt it as they'll probably need another two or three months to get a golden seed. They announced Tiger sometime around August and put it out in April; I don't see why and how they could release it in January but it still would be cool and beat the crap out of Redmond.

mulletman13

Oct 13, 2006, 04:01 AM

10.4.0 was terrible. Tiger, in general, has been one big yawn.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

10.1.0 was terrible. And several things about Tiger have been welcome additions, I particularly enjoy Dashboard (although I know some people hate it, and I know Yahoo Widget Engine is an option as well, but not as good/seamless), and especially Automator. Automator has been absolutely wonderful.

Not to mention that my older computer actually saw a noticable speed increase with Tiger vs. 10.3. Sure, it wasn't as revolutionary as OS X when it first came out, but to me it was the best 10.x release thus far.

Also, I didn't run into any bugs at 10.4.0 other than the left/right audio balance bug (which I believe stuck around til 10.4.3).

Catfish_Man

Oct 13, 2006, 04:30 AM

What and where is RADAR?

Radar is Apple's internal bug tracking system (has been since 1991, iirc).

<edit>
The known issues list there is pretty harsh... sounds like lots of half done changes to me :)
</edit>

Willis

Oct 13, 2006, 04:36 AM

I couldn't disagree with you more.

10.1.0 was terrible. And several things about Tiger have been welcome additions, I particularly enjoy Dashboard (although I know some people hate it, and I know Yahoo Widget Engine is an option as well, but not as good/seamless), and especially Automator. Automator has been absolutely wonderful.

Not to mention that my older computer actually saw a noticable speed increase with Tiger vs. 10.3. Sure, it wasn't as revolutionary as OS X when it first came out, but to me it was the best 10.x release thus far.

Also, I didn't run into any bugs at 10.4.0 other than the left/right audio balance bug (which I believe stuck around til 10.4.3).

I agree with you. I went from 10.(1) to 10.3 and found a HUGE improvement. When I went to Tiger, it just got better. Better connectivity for wireless and talking to other computers. Trying to get the Mac networked to Windows was a headache, with Panther, it was easier, Tiger got it to the point where you didnt have to do much at all!

Now though, I can see some parts of Tiger's flaws. You get the impression theres a hole somewhere, but that said, its ALOT more stable than the other OSX releases. (In my experience anyway)

zoetropeuk

Oct 13, 2006, 04:37 AM

Analog Kid

Oct 13, 2006, 05:08 AM

erg not really. you do only have 2 holes in your head as you say, but your hearing is more advanced than that. your brain always factors in all the other elements, like your head position, so your brain notices and calculates the volumes of incoming sounds, so you can distinguish where things are in relation to you. obviously, your brain can't do that with headphones.
No reproduction system is perfect in all environments. When your brain translates a sound, it positions it relative to your head-- a sound in front of you will sound like it's coming from the right if your head is turned left. This is why you tend to look at something before you can react to it. If you have more time to react, your brain will probably work it out correctly.

As you say, headphones alone can't track head movement so the environment will appear to rotate with your head. If you're trying to simulate a fixed environment, or coordinate with an immersive display, then you'll need to deal with this somehow. They have the advantage, however, of being able to collapse the combined impact of a sound field into two point sources directly at the sensors (your ear canals).

Headphones have the additional complication that we position sound vertically by the filter effect of the fleshy parts of our ears-- which are different for every individual. Most systems use a generalized filter to approximate an average ear, whatever that means.

Open air speakers are trying to reproduce a sound field from a small number of point sources and can only produce the desired effect on one location in space, and the listener has to remain there. They also suffer from channel cross talk and reflections from walls and objects in the reproduction sound space that aren't intended to be in the simulated sound space. The Dolby home theater type systems are essentially two dimensional in the plain of the ceiling and floor, which causes problems if you're trying to get 3D sound, or sound indicating the vertical alignment of a computer display.

For positioning screen effects, headphones will probably win since they don't have to compensate for the environment and the user is almost certainly looking at the display fixed in front of them. Since the simulation environment is essentially two dimensional (the display), you might also get away with fixed speakers positioned around the display and ignore the cross talk and reflections. In either case, you'd also have to assume a distance from the display to the user and assume the user is centered.

Nothing simple is going to work in all cases...

BillyShears

Oct 13, 2006, 05:16 AM

This entire thread breaks the NDA developers agree to when paying their membership. It's pathetic that some developers would do this just so they can feel cool by leaking the info. If you want access to the seeds or up-to-date info then pay the $500 (minimum) like the honest developers have to :mad:

From Apples agreement:

"Pre-release software is Apple Confidential information. Unauthorized distribution of pre-release software or disclosure of information relating to pre-release software (including the distribution of screen shots) may result in immediate termination of your ADC membership, and may subject you to both civil and criminal liability."

Someone always posts something like this when related to the OS. I don't get it.

Maybe you should leave, because I'm pretty sure almost all (substantial) rumours violate some sort of agreement with Apple. Or how did you think we get screenshots of the OS before it's available, descriptions of products before they're available, etc?

zoetropeuk

Oct 13, 2006, 05:33 AM

Someone always posts something like this when related to the OS. I don't get it.

Maybe you should leave, because I'm pretty sure almost all (substantial) rumours violate some sort of agreement with Apple. Or how did you think we get screenshots of the OS before it's available, descriptions of products before they're available, etc?

I know it happens and there's nothing I can do. But if at some point something critical gets released that really pisses Apple off then we as developers may lose access to this information. Or be forced to pay a much higher price for early access.

Leaking this info doesn't benefit anyone but losing access to the pre-release versions could seriously effect the smaller developers. I just find it pathetic that some people just have no respect for others.

Analog Kid

Oct 13, 2006, 05:36 AM

Someone always posts something like this when related to the OS. I don't get it.
Are they the same people who complain that Thinksecret (or whoever) "obviously don't have reliable sources"?

Analog Kid

Oct 13, 2006, 06:37 AM

I know it happens and there's nothing I can do. But if at some point something critical gets released that really pisses Apple off then we as developers may lose access to this information. Or be forced to pay a much higher price for early access.

Leaking this info doesn't benefit anyone but losing access to the pre-release versions could seriously effect the smaller developers. I just find it pathetic that some people just have no respect for others.
You are right, of course... Sites like this exist though because people are hoping someone will say something they shouldn't. I tend to think the good (derived from the passion and hype) balance the bad.

It's not my information being divulged though, it's Apple's, so what I think doesn't matter so much...

dmw007

Oct 13, 2006, 07:05 AM

Actually, LoopRumors (http://www.looprumors.com/LoopBlackPopup.php?leopard-available-at-mwsf-07) is reporting that Leopard might be released at Macworld next January.

That would be awesome, but we will see if it happens... :)

gloss

Oct 13, 2006, 08:44 AM

heisetax

Oct 13, 2006, 09:08 AM

I agree with you. I went from 10.(1) to 10.3 and found a HUGE improvement. When I went to Tiger, it just got better. Better connectivity for wireless and talking to other computers. Trying to get the Mac networked to Windows was a headache, with Panther, it was easier, Tiger got it to the point where you didnt have to do much at all!

Now though, I can see some parts of Tiger's flaws. You get the impression theres a hole somewhere, but that said, its ALOT more stable than the other OSX releases. (In my experience anyway)

I've owned wvery version of OS X including OS X Beta. But I did not use OS X on a daily basis until version 10.2. Until then, in my opinion, OS X was not ready for prime time use.

Now I'm running OS 10.4.8 on my Intel Mac Pro. There's still several things missing in OS X when compared with OS 9. But everything is more stable. I've had several kernel panics plus countless system lockups. Also many programs will freeze & have to be force quit to free things up. Mac OS 10.4.8 is much more stable on my MDD G4 PowerMac & 17" G4 PowerBook. It seems like Mac OS 10.4.6 started out with the Intel Macs, with 10.4.7 installed on my Intel Mac Pro.

Mac OS 10.5 should make a bigger difference to the Intel Mac than the PPC Macs. Having several PPC Macs & only 1 Intel Mac, I hope that Apple continues developing the Mac OS for the PPC Macs. I wonder how long it is before Steve Jobs declares the PPC Mac dead & says like he did for OS 9 that no more development will come.

Bill the TaxMan

virus1

Oct 13, 2006, 10:03 AM

Look up Binaural sound. Sound these days can be mixed in such a way that, when output through a nice set of headphones, the effect is completely 3-dimensional. The sound technicians do all the fun stuff for you.

It's really impressive, honestly. I've played with it a bit. Almost too real.
i will check it out. but the question is, would we really want it in headphones at all? it would make us a little freaked out if it really sounded real, and it would take away our ability to differentiate between sound coming from the headphones and sound coming from around you, which would be a little scary.

xUKHCx

Oct 13, 2006, 10:39 AM

vi2867

Oct 13, 2006, 10:50 AM

AidenShaw

Oct 13, 2006, 11:02 AM

is there somewhere in vegas a bet going who's first? vista or leopard?
There's no doubt that Vista will be first - on track for November release....

Unfortunately, the consumer release has to wait until after the Saturnalia purchasing orgy - so some will ignore the millions of copies running at businesses and claim that Vista ships sometime in January.

ps: RC2 (build 5744) is pretty darn good - I've moved several of my systems over to it for day-to-day use. Also upgraded a couple of Media Center Editions to Vista Ultimate. Vista's MCE is a big step forward for an already impressive product.

pps: Since one of Leopard's "super secret" features is Apple's attempt at a media center (to go with Frontrow, iTV and the new Conroe mini-tower/HTPC form factor), Microsoft has raised the bar. Since Apple is running Vista internally, of course they already know that. ;)

zweigand

Oct 13, 2006, 11:54 AM

Oh, did M$ finally decide to release Vista? ;) :D :rolleyes:
No, they decided to release XP SP3 ...they just decided to rename it to Vista.

zweigand

Oct 13, 2006, 12:12 PM

There's no doubt that Vista will be first - on track for November release....

Unfortunately, the consumer release has to wait until after the Saturnalia purchasing orgy - so some will ignore the millions of copies running at businesses and claim that Vista ships sometime in January.
If you think major businesses are going to leap out and upgrade to Vista in November you are sadly mistaken. Some small businesses, maybe, if they have the time to mess around with the upgrades.

I also heard that the site licensing can't be done with Vista without having a Longhorn Server set up ...dunno if that is true, but it would be yet another reason businesses aren't going to adopt.

slb

Oct 13, 2006, 12:19 PM

Well, for as little as has changed from 10.4 to 10.5, I'd put my bets on vista having more bugs.

Actually, 10.5 changes a lot (so did 10.4). People underestimate the fundamental updates in an OS X release because Apple doesn't advertise those except to developers. It will certainly be worth the $120, especially compared to the whopping $400 for Vista Ultimate Edition (now with more branding!).

There's no doubt that Vista will be first - on track for November release....

But it's not available to the public. This is a ploy so that they can continue bugfixing it through the holidays while claiming it's out already. "See? We shipped on time! We were 'on track' after all!" ("on track" being a favorite phrase of Vista press releases, I've noticed).

Unfortunately, the consumer release has to wait until after the Saturnalia purchasing orgy - so some will ignore the millions of copies running at businesses and claim that Vista ships sometime in January.

No way will millions of copies be running at businesses. They'll be the last to upgrade from 2000/XP.

Remember, Vista ain't done 'til SP1! :)

motulist

Oct 13, 2006, 01:14 PM

Hallelujah! They're finally giving iCal an update! However, this significant update to the "user interface" better mean more than a cosmetic change to the interface. iCal is sorely lacking many basic pim functions and is really a sub par application from Apple. Here's hoping iCal finally blossoms into what it should've been all along.

Chundles

Oct 13, 2006, 01:25 PM

No way will millions of copies be running at businesses. They'll be the last to upgrade from 2000/XP.

Remember, Vista ain't done 'til SP1! :)

Yep, there was a story in the paper last week about how the National Australia Bank (we're talking billions upon billions of dollars, they've got fingers in pots all over the world, massive corporation and they employ thousands) has only just got around to rolling out XP over the old 2000 Pro systems. They won't be looking to upgrade to Vista for a few years yet.

I dare say it's the same for most big business, they don't want to risk anything by upgrading to the latest and greatest until it's had years of real-world testing and updates.

jsw

Oct 13, 2006, 01:30 PM

Hey how much will OS X Leopard cost?

I just bought my iMac C2D "17 two weeks ago, and I just didn't want to wait until Spring '07 to buy it with Leopard installed on it.

Does Apple offer an upgrade and full versions of the OS X.5?

It would be nice if they offered some type of discount for people who bought their Macs after a certain time frame (Like October '06).
Likely exactly what they're charging for Tiger now (US$129), and, no, there is no upgrade program - unless you buy a Mac without it once its released (old stock) and in some rare cases (the PowerMac G5s shipped with Jaguar but were allowed to upgrade to Panther for either free or a nominal charge).

generik

Oct 13, 2006, 01:31 PM

I wouldn't touch Vista, not with the new "Bill's pocket protection schemes" put into place. The real big irony of these new measures?

I can actually pirate Vista without feeling any guilt now. Why the hell should my RETAIL version be eligible for only one machine transfer? What happens if my machine dies or I install it in a new VM?

It used to be that the OEM version is tied to the machine it comes with, and retail versions offers unlimited transfers. With this new scheme it is nothing but a money grab, plain and simple.

akac

Oct 13, 2006, 01:55 PM

RadarWeb is the bug reporting portal for Developers.

RadarWeb is. I'm talking about RADAR - what Apple engineers themselves use. I used to have access to it when I worked there MANY years ago, but I still keep friends who work there. They don't tell me anything since its NDA and they like their jobs, but they did tell me what I wrote.

akac

Oct 13, 2006, 01:58 PM

This entire thread breaks the NDA developers agree to when paying their membership. It's pathetic that some developers would do this just so they can feel cool by leaking the info. If you want access to the seeds or up-to-date info then pay the $500 (minimum) like the honest developers have to :mad:

From Apples agreement:

"Pre-release software is Apple Confidential information. Unauthorized distribution of pre-release software or disclosure of information relating to pre-release software (including the distribution of screen shots) may result in immediate termination of your ADC membership, and may subject you to both civil and criminal liability."

I know I'm not in ADC at all (as a Windows Mobile developer), and most of this thread is from people who are not in ADC, so I can't see how this whole thread is.

Project

Oct 13, 2006, 03:47 PM

/patiently awaits shots of the iCal changes

aranhamo

Oct 13, 2006, 03:49 PM

Yep, there was a story in the paper last week about how the National Australia Bank (we're talking billions upon billions of dollars, they've got fingers in pots all over the world, massive corporation and they employ thousands) has only just got around to rolling out XP over the old 2000 Pro systems. They won't be looking to upgrade to Vista for a few years yet.

I dare say it's the same for most big business, they don't want to risk anything by upgrading to the latest and greatest until it's had years of real-world testing and updates.

I work for a multi-billion-dollar, multi-national corporation that employs tens of thousands and has tens of thousands of computers, and the IT department recently sent out a memo that they are beginning the transition from Windows 2000 to Windows XP, to be finished sometime in 2008 (my desktop is scheduled to be upgraded to XP sometime in 2008). They spent 5 years of testing and tweaking their systems for Windows XP; it'll probably be at least 2012 before they upgrade to Vista.

I recently spoke to one of the CIOs, and he said they already have concerns about Vista because it incorporates functions into the OS that the IT group already uses third party software for. That means even more testing and tweaking than normal, and possibly a delay in adopting Vista while they wait for contracts with third-parties to expire.

andiwm2003

Oct 13, 2006, 04:51 PM

i work for a company with close to 300 employees and we won't upgrade to vista anytime soon. maybe in two years. or later. xp simply is good enough for everything we do.
my guess is that the consumer sector will drive the switch because they buy new comps with vista oem on them and switch that way. businesses will follow much later.

QuarterSwede

Oct 13, 2006, 04:56 PM

I work for a multi-billion-dollar, multi-national corporation that employs tens of thousands and has tens of thousands of computers, and the IT department recently sent out a memo that they are beginning the transition from Windows 2000 to Windows XP, to be finished sometime in 2008 (my desktop is scheduled to be upgraded to XP sometime in 2008). They spent 5 years of testing and tweaking their systems for Windows XP; it'll probably be at least 2012 before they upgrade to Vista.

I work for the same type of company and they moved to XP a year and a half ago. The IT group had to do all sorts of junk to lock it down and test it (it runs rock solid) but they still got it out. Doubt they'll move to Vista for a while if at all (I wonder if they'll just skip it and go to the next version).

BWhaler

Oct 13, 2006, 07:45 PM

especially compared to the whopping $400 for Vista Ultimate Edition (now with more branding!).

That is a riot.

(And my money is on the fact that Vista is not done until SP2, not SP1. They are still fixing this sucker through launch, so they're going to need to patch it fast.

Shadow

Oct 13, 2006, 07:47 PM

The vast majority of Vista is "service pack" material. There are only 4 or 5 things that needed a whole new OS (new in the sense that its not XP anymore).

QuarterSwede

Oct 13, 2006, 08:46 PM

I used XP earlier today to install IE7* and had completely forgotten how horrid it is to install anything in Windows. My OS X experience has been so much better I was actually surprised that I had to restart Windows after the IE7 install was complete (which took 5 minutes by itself). I still can't believe how much I'd forgotten about why I hate Windows. What a horrid OS.

*work benefits site requires IE and spoofing in Safari, Firefox, etc. does not work.

MrCrowbar

Oct 13, 2006, 09:22 PM

Hey how much will OS X Leopard cost?

I just bought my iMac C2D "17 two weeks ago, and I just didn't want to wait until Spring '07 to buy it with Leopard installed on it.

Does Apple offer an upgrade and full versions of the OS X.5?

It would be nice if they offered some type of discount for people who bought their Macs after a certain time frame (Like October '06).

Actually, they do have a discount. My roommate got tiger half price cuz his powerbook was bought less than 3 months ago or something. Just keep those papers and vouchers that came with your Mac.

Platform

Oct 14, 2006, 04:44 AM

Yes !

More feature released....and Apple should have more to come :D

dmw007

Oct 14, 2006, 07:50 AM

No, they decided to release XP SP3 ...they just decided to rename it to Vista.

LOL :D I think that your summary is quite accurate zweigand. :D :)

macintel4me

Oct 14, 2006, 08:47 AM

Actually, they do have a discount. My roommate got tiger half price cuz his powerbook was bought less than 3 months ago or something. Just keep those papers and vouchers that came with your Mac.
That's interesting. I have never heard of this before. This could push me over the edge to get a Mac Pro sooner than later. Is this discount/upgrade pricing documented anywhere??

kingtj

Oct 14, 2006, 10:56 AM

Really, what's pathetic is that people continue to throw fits when very basic, watered-down information is provided by people who already got scammed into shelling out hundreds of dollars just to get the "privilege" of having enough info to do development work for the new platform!

Apple has *plenty* of secrecy already, considering nobody but a select group of employees gets to see much of the code and product designs that are still "works in progress". By the time anything is released to people paying for a developer membership, it's hardly a "corporate secret" anymore.

Personally, I think NDAs should be placed only on actual employees of a company. But lawyers make millions by encouraging people to slap these agreements down on everyone possible. If you want a hardware platform to be successful, you have to embrace openness and free sharing of information needed to develop successful products on that platform! Take, for example, the Linux community. They practically boycott all ATI video card products, simply because their otherwise teriffic cards don't have any respectable drivers for X in Linux. nVidia, by contrast, does - and assists Linux developers to a MUCH greater extent in making use of their cards.

This entire thread breaks the NDA developers agree to when paying their membership. It's pathetic that some developers would do this just so they can feel cool by leaking the info. If you want access to the seeds or up-to-date info then pay the $500 (minimum) like the honest developers have to :mad:

From Apples agreement:

"Pre-release software is Apple Confidential information. Unauthorized distribution of pre-release software or disclosure of information relating to pre-release software (including the distribution of screen shots) may result in immediate termination of your ADC membership, and may subject you to both civil and criminal liability."

Applespider

Oct 14, 2006, 11:08 AM

That's interesting. I have never heard of this before. This could push me over the edge to get a Mac Pro sooner than later. Is this discount/upgrade pricing documented anywhere??

No because it's not worked that way in the recent past.

If you buy a Mac once Leopard ships (possibly after they announce the shipping date), you should be able to apply for the Up to Date program which will send you discs for the cost of shipping. If you buy in an Apple Store/online, they'll usually drop a copy into the box but this covers those who buy from 3rd parties.

Otherwise, regardless of whether you bought last year, last month or the week before, you pay the normal retail price for the new OS. They're all classed as 'upgrades' after all.

mr_flibble

Oct 14, 2006, 05:32 PM

I really don't know how it is now, but last time I checked Preview, it was missing one important functionality - when I selected any picture from directory to preview, there was no possibility to view the next or previous one from within the application using just arrow keys or space/backspace, enter, whatever.. I always had to select all pictures I would possibly like to see. It was quite annoying. Hope it is finally fixed now?

jakeDude

Oct 14, 2006, 06:14 PM

Really, what's pathetic is that people continue to throw fits when very basic, watered-down information is provided by people who already got scammed into shelling out hundreds of dollars just to get the "privilege" of having enough info to do development work for the new platform!

Apple has *plenty* of secrecy already, considering nobody but a select group of employees gets to see much of the code and product designs that are still "works in progress".

Yes, this is true* based on my experience at WWDC this year. I walked to the conference with a Apple employee who was staying at the same hotel as me.* As we walked, he was telling me about how secret Apple keeps the Leopard builds.* He was a tester and basically said it is on a "need to know basis". It is a very closed environment from what he was saying..* He did not have any reason to lie to me etc..

Apple would need to adopt a more open policy like Microsoft does with*
Vista and MSDN beta versions.* But there is a lot of truth about how good ideas are integrated.. Look at Widgets/Gadgets* and Spotlight/ Windows search etc..* So there are some trade secrets going on here and major competition over the same key selling points for the release.

Being at WWDC,* I never heard anybody say anything about anything while we were waiting about 3 hours for the keynote.* This was monday morning and most people were pretty chatty. **What I have noticed is some developers such as Aspyr or Blizzard know about things but cannot disclose due to their NDAs.. So, the information is "hardly secret" - so have to disagree with you there. **The hundreds of dollars for a Select membership has other privledges such as the hardware discount for development and tech support, seeding program, hardware lab testing etc... Its not really that bad of a deal as being a ADC Select member, i am downloading the newest build now to finish my development using the new XCode etc..*

seanr

Oct 14, 2006, 08:11 PM

where do you guys get november from? The vista web site says early to mid 2007

generik

Oct 14, 2006, 08:18 PM

where do you guys get november from? The vista web site says early to mid 2007

Business customers will get it before the end of the year. It will be a half arsed release that even Microsoft doesn't expect anyone to actually deploy, but the release will be made then just to keep the promises they made to many corporate customers who've previously purchased support contracts to keep their licenses current. Many of these licenses are sold with the *nudge nudge wink wink* promise that they will get the upgrade to Windows Vista as well, so many will be seriously pissed if Microsoft just lets their contracts elapse and feigns ignorance of that...

scu

Oct 15, 2006, 01:37 AM

AidenShaw

Oct 15, 2006, 02:26 AM

Business customers will get it before the end of the year. It will be a half arsed release that even Microsoft doesn't expect anyone to actually deploy,...
Have you actually used the Vista RC builds? Hardly half-assed.

Vista will be ready soon. Unfortunately, there isn't enough time to get Vista loaded onto systems for the Saturnalia buying orgy - so Microsoft was forced to delay the consumer release until after the winter solstice.

In any event, this will probably mean that in January that Vista will be a pretty solid system. Microsoft will be able to find and fix issues found during the business rollout, so that the January release can be "service pack 1", or at least contain a patch rollup.

It seems to me that the .1 updates to OSX have come pretty soon after release for the 10.3 and 10.4 - so there's nothing new about a bunch of odd problems showing up when a new system is released to the public.

Applespider

Oct 15, 2006, 05:16 AM

Have you actually used the Vista RC builds? Hardly half-assed.

In any event, this will probably mean that in January that Vista will be a pretty solid system. Microsoft will be able to find and fix issues found during the business rollout, so that the January release can be "service pack 1", or at least contain a patch rollup.

While I don't doubt that in Jan it will be relatively solid and that both MS and Apple both update new OS's relatively soon afterwards, I do doubt your optimism on the the business launch. Generik's point on the timing allowing MS to say that they met their license obligations is more likely.

The majority of businesses aren't going to be implementing Vista this year. For many, it's the peak of their year's trade and their IT embargos are probably already a week or so away. No way any new OS is going into those environments. Aside from that, Windows is so pervasive and in major companies, so customised, that it's going to take a while for IT to test that the final build does actually work and doesn't have the security holes. Until late 2003, our company was routinely wiping XP from newly purchased PCs and loading Windows NT. It's only in the past year that a small majority of machines in the office are running XP

AidenShaw

Oct 15, 2006, 12:10 PM

While I don't doubt that in Jan it will be relatively solid and that both MS and Apple both update new OS's relatively soon afterwards, I do doubt your optimism on the the business launch. Generik's point on the timing allowing MS to say that they met their license obligations is more likely.
I'm sure MS had some contract issues, but they also probably welcome the "slow start" and the opportunity to find and fix odd configuration and other issues before the full scale launch.

However, when I look at the number of people in my development team who are already running Vista on their home and office systems, I suspect that there will be millions of Vista users before the "consumer" shipment in January. I know that we can buy "business" machines on our employee purchase programs, and our Vista volume license agreement will let us install it on any capable machine that we want....

The majority of businesses aren't going to be implementing Vista this year ... Until late 2003, our company was routinely wiping XP from newly purchased PCs and loading Windows NT.
No argument here - IT departments are notoriously conservative, and often for good reasons.

We'll see how it comes out, but Vista's improved security and manageability over XP/W2K does offer a little more incentive for an IT department to deploy Vista than the corresponding XP upgrade.

In any event, I think that the two-stage release of Vista will make the consumer release in January a less traumatic event ;) .

Whether you want to call the business release "RC3" or to call the consumer release "SP1", the January release will benefit from the additional configuration testing.

Catfish_Man

Oct 15, 2006, 04:33 PM

I have a feeling Leopard will blow everyone away with all the cool features. But most of all everyone is forgeting that it will be the first true 64bit OS. It will unlease the potential many only dreamed of in applications.

Um... no. Everything except for the first sentence is just wrong, and the first sentence is possibly doubtful.

AidenShaw

Oct 15, 2006, 05:48 PM

Um... no. Everything except for the first sentence is just wrong, and the first sentence is possibly doubtful.
How about "it will be the closest yet to a true 64-bit Mac OS"?

That's probably a safe claim.... ;)

Spaceman Spiff

Oct 16, 2006, 12:00 AM

I saw a shot of the new iCal interface. Doesn't look like there's new features or anything, just looks different. I don't like it. They moved off brushed metal to a plastic look, like iTunes but lighter.

amnesiak

Oct 16, 2006, 04:56 AM

where did u see it?

Chris Grande

Oct 16, 2006, 11:16 AM

Here is a screenshot of the new iCal, I found the image on InsanelyMac.

http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1wp6.png

Adurbe

Oct 16, 2006, 11:30 AM

so they moved the month ans search to the top...

not as bif an overhall as i was expecting :( but then again, dunno what iwas expecting:rolleyes: ;)

Platform

Oct 16, 2006, 07:27 PM

so they moved the month ans search to the top...

not as bif an overhall as i was expecting :( but then again, dunno what iwas expecting:rolleyes: ;)

I thought it looked a lot more OS X 10.4/5...the current one looks like 10.2...;)

Adurbe

Oct 16, 2006, 07:31 PM

I thought it looked a lot more OS X 10.4/5...the current one looks like 10.2...;)

as long as it still works and doesnt slow the system to much, it can look 10.1 for all i care :p

a456

Oct 17, 2006, 06:26 AM

is there somewhere in vegas a bet going who's first? vista or leopard? and who has more bugs at release day?

I think the greater impact would occur if Apple released its product just after Vista amid the confusion of people wondering which version of the MS OS to buy. People procrastinating could then finally realize that the much simpler option is to buy a Mac and not be confronted with not only the question of which make and model to stretch their hard earned money on, but also which version of the Vista OS they want with that, and whether it will actually run satisfactorily on the computer they are buying.

I know that I for one would not be want to be faced with yet another PC owner's dilemma. Thank goodness I run a Mac.:D