Ebay = No more PS3's

[DEXTERITY]

I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but something funny is going on with the ps3 and ebay. I'm sure Sony can't make ebay shut down the bids. And it is legal to pre -sale if you state it properly... here is the long story"

I was able to get two ps3 reserves (and I know some don't like this, but please ..reality check). I put one on Ebay so the other one would pay for itself.

The first one got deleted right when it was at $1200 and I received an email stating I had to mention that any pre sale item has to state it will ship within 30 days of the auction ending. So I reposted it, did as I was told and two days later my account was suspended without being told why.

Any item I was selling (non ps3 related) were all cancelled and everyone who ever bid or bought something was sent an email basically implying I was suspended for fraud. nice way to ruin someones reputation and kind of a real harsh move especially considering they didn't even tell me what went wrong.. Which is total BS. That led to a frenzy of people freezing the money they paid on paypal for items in transit, already shipped , etc, etc, talk about having to do some serious damage control and pr work. Spent hours fixing that nightmare.

So I'm sitting there with perfect feedback, etc and no answers from ebay.

Last night I figured I would see how much ps3's are selling for. Almost everyone is gone or the links are invalid.

I've been trying to get to the situation resolved but ebay has replied to neither one of my inquires or appeals and they dont have a phone number..

Just wondered if anyone had a clue as to what was going on. it is kind of weird. I was thinking what did I do wrong that got me kicked off and that is the only thing I can think of (based on the other auctions being no longer active)...

kind of sucks lol.. worst case if no one else was able to sell any either.

[MacRumorUser]

congrats to sony. I'm glad Sony & Ebay are taking this action, at least they are being pro-active for a change.

[DEXTERITY]

congrats for what? It isn't illegal to resell something.

You're just one of those people that doesn't like others making money. If someone has the money to spend on it and rather not stand on line as others have, what is wrong with that?

The people who sell don't drive the price up, the people who bid on it do. And obviously the people who bid on it are aware of the money they are inputting for their bid.

there is nothing to congratulate. In the time being, perfectly legit people who sell other things have their accounts suspended for a particular amount of time.. I guess I should say I hope you lose a good source of your income as well. What a ****** thing to say congrats for.

And I don't think Sony can force Ebay to do anything. It is something having to do with following the exact policy for a pre-sale item. I can assure you come Nov. 17th they will all be back on Ebay and they won't be able to legally do anything about it since it is all LEGAL!

[Motley]

The reason it was canceled is that you can't guarantee that you can ship the item per Ebay's rules (read your pre-order slip, it's not a guarantee that you'll get one on the first day).

Don't worry, once you have PS3 in hands there shouldn't be anything they can do to stop you (if they cancel those auctions, then they're scum).

[Haoshiro]

I've been annoyed at people buying extra and putting them on eBay before as well, but this still hardly seems right.

The only way I could see Sony being able to pull this off legally is if they told eBay pre-orders were not garaunteed, and that it's possible less PS3s will actually make it to the retailers... then eBay could say you are selling something you don't have.

[Jovian9]

I really don't have a problem with people buying extra and putting them on eBay. The PS3 is so expensive maybe that's the only way someone can really afford to own one.
What I have a problem with is someone selling a PS3 before they actually own one. Who knows if you will actually get the 2 you were promised via pre-order.

[ViveLeLivre]

Good for eBay. My local Gamestop had a grand total of 4 pre-orders for the PS3. The thought of somebody snatching them up just to gouge somebody for $1200 makes me ill.

[davidjearly]

I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but something funny is going on with the ps3 and ebay. I'm sure Sony can't make ebay shut down the bids. And it is legal to pre -sale if you state it properly... here is the long story"

I was able to get two ps3 reserves (and I know some don't like this, but please ..reality check). I put one on Ebay so the other one would pay for itself.

The first one got deleted right when it was at $1200 and I received an email stating I had to mention that any pre sale item has to state it will ship within 30 days of the auction ending. So I reposted it, did as I was told and two days later my account was suspended without being told why.

Any item I was selling (non ps3 related) were all cancelled and everyone who ever bid or bought something was sent an email basically implying I was suspended for fraud. nice way to ruin someones reputation and kind of a real harsh move especially considering they didn't even tell me what went wrong.. Which is total BS. That led to a frenzy of people freezing the money they paid on paypal for items in transit, already shipped , etc, etc, talk about having to do some serious damage control and pr work. Spent hours fixing that nightmare.

So I'm sitting there with perfect feedback, etc and no answers from ebay.

Last night I figured I would see how much ps3's are selling for. Almost everyone is gone or the links are invalid.

I've been trying to get to the situation resolved but ebay has replied to neither one of my inquires or appeals and they dont have a phone number..

Just wondered if anyone had a clue as to what was going on. it is kind of weird. I was thinking what did I do wrong that got me kicked off and that is the only thing I can think of (based on the other auctions being no longer active)...

kind of sucks lol.. worst case if no one else was able to sell any either.

Well done eBay, thats what I've got to say. I think it is a disgrace the amount of things like this that make it onto eBay. For every unit you have pre-ordered and intended to sell, you have prevented someone else from getting one at a reasonable price.

I can't stand people that do this just to 'make money'. Get a job like the rest of us (and if you already have one, there is no excuse toher than greed).

Disgusting.

[calyxman]

When you pre-order more than one and use the second to sell on e-bay, that's basically taking away someone else's unit that they had to pre-order, lay down a deposit, and wait like everyone else. It's just not fair to hoard the extra units simply because you come before everyone else in line.

It's no different to the real estate boom down here in parts of Florida: speculators would swarm into a new development and buy up most of the new homes, only to later turn around and "flip" the property at a higher price to those who really need a home.

Yeah, it's legal, but is it right?

[davidjearly]

When you pre-order more than one and use the second to sell on e-bay, that's basically taking away someone else's unit that they had to pre-order, lay down a deposit, and wait like everyone else. It's just not fair to hoard the extra units simply because you come before everyone else in line.

It's no different to the real estate boom down here in parts of Florida: speculators would swarm into a new development and buy up most of the new homes, only to later turn around and "flip" the property at a higher price to those who really need a home.

Yeah, it's legal, but is it right?

My sentiments exactly!

[raggedjimmi]

I can see it from both sides. For an unreasonable amount of money you are guaranteed a PS3, super fans will pay that. It's their loss for being so fan-ish. But I cannot imagine little girls crying over Christmas because they didn't get one.

Know what the perfect answer is everyone? Sony to get off their arses and actually PRODUCE a realistic amount of consoles before a launch instead of playing this game
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/images/061012.jpg

Do a Nintendo and get millions of consoles out. Oh noes if it means delays, yeys if it means I can walk into a shop and buy one on the launch day.

[ima_pseudonym]

Thanks Dexterity, you made my day! Ebay gouger gets shut down and comes to forum whining about it. Nice. To put it in terms you might understand: with the opportunity to profit there is usually some risk. The less ethical the profit, the greater the risk.

[j26]

Thanks Dexterity, you made my day! Ebay gouger gets shut down and comes to forum whining about it. Nice. To put it in terms you might understand: with the opportunity to profit there is usually some risk. The less ethical the profit, the greater the risk.

But what risk? All he has to do is pony up the dough to buy it on day one and then turn around and sell it straight away.

His complaint seems to be that he actually has to invest some money and face a slight delay on his return. He'll still make a profit.

[Haoshiro]

You know, I used to be "one of you" that was upset at the idea someone would "ruin" my chances of getting the new system, but honestly that is bullcrap.

The people that get extra get them because YOU (or ME) didn't get out there and pre-order one before they did, we could have if we really really tried (after all, they did), but we didn't - even if we KNEW the product was going to sell out.

What is even more ridiculous to me is that all you whiners are actually upset about is that you can't get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. The world is going to be DROWNED in PS3s eventually, probably some time next year.

You don't NEED one NOW, and if someone gets extra and sells them on eBay or by any other means, you are still going to be able to get the system later. Besides, if you don't already have your pre-ordered then guess what, you weren't going to get one anyway - so stop crying about it.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Greed, its destroying this country because it seems our govt is pushing all forms of it, Selling something that you dont even have is pretty discusting. Good for Ebay.

[nospleen]

Why does everyone get so fired up on people selling the PS3's and Xbox 360's on ebay for a profit? If you want one, stand in line and wait your turn. It is not like the people who have them are STEALING them. So, if they get it fair and square, then it is their right to do what they want with it. If you do not like the price that they are selling it at, DON'T buy it?!?!

And for the record, I DO have a full time job. I DID stand in line and buy a PS3. And, I am going to sell it on ebay and use the profit to buy some Christmas gifts and if the sell goes really well, put the rest towards a macbook.

Everyone who has a job, earns an income because their company makes a profit off of somebody else. This is like people complaining that a retailer marks up the price from the supplier. If it is too high, do not buy it. If you want one sooooo bad, get off your @$$, stand in line, and get one.

To the poster, sorry to hear you got hammered by ebay. But, it may be a good thing, what if your pre order does not come in?!!! I am waiting until mine comes in to be safe.

[j26]

You know, I used to be "one of you" that was upset at the idea someone would "ruin" my chances of getting the new system, but honestly that is bullcrap.

The people that get extra get them because YOU (or ME) didn't get out there and pre-order one before they did, we could have if we really really tried (after all, they did), but we didn't - even if we KNEW the product was going to sell out.

What is even more ridiculous to me is that all you whiners are actually upset about is that you can't get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. The world is going to be DROWNED in PS3s eventually, probably some time next year.

You don't NEED one NOW, and if someone gets extra and sells them on eBay or by any other means, you are still going to be able to get the system later. Besides, if you don't already have your pre-ordered then guess what, you weren't going to get one anyway - so stop crying about it.

There was most likely a guy (or girl) standing at the end of the line to pre-order that didn't get one because of Dexterity. Legal or illegal, that person made the effort but was denied one, and that's not moral.

've actually considered doing something of this nature before (on a grander scale though), but it just wouldn't feel right to me, so I didn't.

It's no different from ticket touting, and I remember that once U2 kept 5,000 tickets in reserve for a concert in Dublin and flooded the market on the day of the concert, killing off the touts market. IIRC almost the entire country cheered. That's the esteem touts and people of that ilk are held in, and mostpeople would not be unhappy if the same happened to these "traders" on the PS3.

(And I have no interest in the PS3, btw - purely talking principle here)

[DEXTERITY]

actually there was no one extra person standing in line. all who showed up got one because the store I was at is getting 16. And if the store gets shorted one I already stated I would give my other one to whomever gets shorted. Three of us got there at 745 am. If you know only 400,000 are going to be available and you want one, then it's obvious you can't show up at 955am to try and get one.

And I have a job. And I have a way of making money off Ebay (not just with ps3's).. I'm doing the same thing as a previous poster stated.. using the extra money towards something else.

People kill me that get upset at that. It was also stated in most peoples description that you get your money back if the unit isn't secured. But the word pre-order may be the death of those ps3 posts. I will get my account back, just kind of got hammered for no reason and have to work on ebays schedule of when they choose to respond.

And I'm not whining, I actually thought it was an interesting topic for discussion. Only thing I'm pissed at is the way it was handled by ebay and the severity of their actions. They cancelled anything non ps3 related that already had bids, contacted people who already purchased items, bid on items, etc. Thats a little overboard and paints one as a crook. Which I am far from. That led to people who had items in transit putting a hold on their paypal payments and an avalanche of unrelated bs I had to deal with. That is my compaint. Thats a legitimate complaint. If I have to wait until Nov. 17th so be it.

At first I was racking my brain as to what I may have did wrong without knowing it. Only last night did I start checking out the ps3 posts and notice what was going on. I don't remember that happening with the 360.

I'm business minded and have a Masters degree from NYU, so I'm not some idiot. If I see a way I can make money legitimately and double my money, why would I pass on it? I invested two hours out of my day. And as someone else stated, I didn't force anyone to bid on it. I don't start my bids out at $1500 like some idiots. I started out the price $150 less then my final price (thats less the price of game and tax). IF someone bids it up $600 more then obviously they can afford that extra expense. And obviously they didn't want to stand on line to get one during a pre order opportunity or they don't plan on doing it they day they come out.

Dont hate me, hate sony, their the ones who had over a year to manufacture more then 400,000 units. Nintendo has plenty of theirs..

Ask yourself this , how much did you pay for your sneakers? Do you realize most sneakers cost no more then $15 to manufacture? So are you mad you got raped or was it your choice to buy those sneakers for quadruple the price.. Same thing. You have a choice. what one does with their money is their business. It isn't like the ps3 costs $200. It is $600 and over $750 with tax and a game (I was offering a game as well). That isn't in the averages person budget. So the AVERAGE person with AVERAGE income isn't buying one.. Hardly robbing from the poooor.

edit: The only rules in regards to pre sale is that you state it will ship within 30 days of the auction ending. EBay cant say that one will not get one just because it is pre-ordered. They allow items to be pre-saled as long as it is stated it will ship within 30 days of the auction. At this point any 7 or 10 auction would ship within 30 days of it ending.. so the mystery continues..

[Haoshiro]

Agreed.


And to j26: There is quite a difference between a concert, which has limited seating and will never happen again (at least not the exact same concert in the exact same location), and a piece of hardware that will get mass produced in the millions and allow everyone to own the exact same unit in the coming months and years.

Think about it, anyone who "missed out" getting a PS3 didn't actually miss out at all, just delayed. Everyone who wants one (and can afford it) will be able to get one in time. The kids the wants things "right now" and screem if they don't get it are the brats who need disciplined, I don't see it being any different in this situation, a little patience and everyone will get a PS3 - so what if it takes a few extra months?

[raggedjimmi]

Way I see it - a solo person selling something you don't have yet isn't good. A business is acceptable (or so we're brought up). Selling something that someone else might not be getting isn't good. Having a PS3 then selling it on eBay is good, makes good financial sense.

[Fezwick]

There was most likely a guy (or girl) standing at the end of the line to pre-order that didn't get one because of Dexterity. Legal or illegal, that person made the effort but was denied one, and that's not moral.

It really doesn't matter if it's moral or not. Morality is relative to the person. What he's doing is not illegal. He invested time and energy getting the extra PS3 so he should be allowed to do what he pleases with it.

I agree he should have waited until he had the PS3 in his hands, though. Pre-orders don't necessarily mean you'll receive the product.

[DEXTERITY]

thank you.

the only reason I posted it is because I'm confident I'm getting one because the manager is a friend. plus I was first in line. so a lot of things would have to go wrong and I stated I would give the money back if all went wrong.. and that isn't my complaint its the way ebay went crazy in handling the situation.

[Xenesis]

That being said, you're still selling something you don't own yet.

That does border the fine line of fraud. On the other hand, if you already had said PS3 in your hands, then there's nothing wrong morally, or legally, really from letting you sell it.

[ViveLeLivre]

It really doesn't matter if it's moral or not. Morality is relative to the person. What he's doing is not illegal. He invested time and energy getting the extra PS3 so he should be allowed to do what he pleases with it.

I agree he should have waited until he had the PS3 in his hands, though. Pre-orders don't necessarily mean you'll receive the product.

It's not illegal to drive 55 miles per hour in the fast lane either, but only jackasses do it. Consideration does mean something in the real world.

You guys can rationalize it any way you want, toss economic theory and moral relativity around like a football, perhaps you'll win some converts, but you'll never convince me (and quite a few others, I'm sure) that it isn't wrong.

[ripfrankwhite]

It is without a doubt wrong to do this. And it doesn't have to be illegal for ebay to remove these auctions. If they don't like it, they can remove it. Period. They have policies that they follow. These units would not have sold out if greedy people didn't buy so many. But people are supposed to be greedy. It's hard to get ahead if you're not.

But, there are many worse things that people could do, and if this is the worst, then they're doing ok.

[DEXTERITY]

well there policy allows one to presale something. just depends on how you state and if your within their guidlines which I was because I corrected what they told me to.. either way still not mad they took it down, its the other actions that followed..

[takao]

personally i have no problem with those who go snatch up a console and sell it on ebay, i have more problems with those who go out and buy those for ridiculous prices of ebay or those who drive up the prices on their own auctions

that aside when you read reports that of a 15 person line 11 gonna put up their console on ebay or out of a 10 person line 6 then something is wrong

[sikkinixx]

why are people worrying about this ebay thing? Even IF ebay won't let you sell them (which they will) you can sell your PS3's at the scalper rate in Craigslist or Amazon or Yahoo Auctions or in the newspaper or where-ever. There is more to selling things than eBay you know... Besides, Ebay takes 3% plus a listing? Why not sell it somewhere that you pay no fee! then you will save an extra like 50 bucks that you can good buy more Wii games with , "w00t, wii roxxor"...

[it5five]

It is without a doubt wrong to do this. And it doesn't have to be illegal for ebay to remove these auctions. If they don't like it, they can remove it. Period. They have policies that they follow. These units would not have sold out if greedy people didn't buy so many. But people are supposed to be greedy. It's hard to get ahead if you're not.

But, there are many worse things that people could do, and if this is the worst, then they're doing ok.

You honestly think that there will be enough consoles available for everyone if people didn't buy them to sell on ebay? You do realize there are only 400,000 consoles available, right? Sony is going to run out on day one, no matter the situation.

[takao]

You honestly think that there will be enough consoles available for everyone if people didn't buy them to sell on ebay? You do realize there are only 400,000 consoles available, right? Sony is going to run out on day one, no matter the situation.

well lots of people selling them on ebay for increased prices isn't going to help game + accessory sales ... actually it's gonna hurt them

[SpankyPenzaanz]

Places taking preorders should have nipped all of this from getgo. They COULD HAVE just limited everybody to 1 preorder only

[it5five]

Yeah it might hurt game+accessory sales, but if someone is dumb enough to pay $2,000 for a PS3, I'd assume they still have plenty of money available to buy games and accessories with. It's still Sony's fault regardless of the situation. If they had started production earlier, there wouldn't be people taking advantage of their mistakes. I think you'll have a hard time finding a Wii selling for an ultra-inflated price on ebay come November 19.

[calculus]

Ah capitalism... I just love it.

[0s and 1s]

Greed, its destroying this country because it seems our govt is pushing all forms of it, Selling something that you dont even have is pretty discusting. Good for Ebay.

Our substandard level of education is destroying this country. Just look at your post.

[SpankyPenzaanz]

Ah capitalism... I just love it.
We need a Hobsian State of Nature with a Draconian Rule of Law

[SamIchi]

I was just about to post an auction for a friend. He had preordered 2 and wanted me to help him sell one. Good thing I was looking around MR.

My stance on this? Well I don't really care if people buy all the pre-orders out, even if it is the coolest, bestest, videogame/product ever. It's just that a product. I know that something like a PS3 is going to be highly demanded so if I don't get one, I don't really care. You shouldn't be blaming people that buy multiples, blame Sony. Eventually there will be more and if you really really can't wait for a product like the PS3, the you damn well should make sure you put in the effort to get one in the beggining. If they can do it, then you can too. If they got a "connection" then go yell at the company/store selling them, and they'll tell you life isn't fair.

I think if stores know that there's a limited supply, they should should just can the whole preorder thing, and then just have people line up, first come first serve, 1 per customer, type deal. That way people who really want it will line up earlier, kinda like Star Wars.

[2nyRiggz]

Big deal...If someone wants to sell something at an arse**** price and the jackrabbit that wants it spends the money to get it then hey....be happy and spend the money. In the end the money man will still see a profit.



Bless

[jessica.]

actually there was no one extra person standing in line. all who showed up got one because the store I was at is getting 16. And if the store gets shorted one I already stated I would give my other one to whomever gets shorted.
I'm sorry but I do not believe that would have been the case. You stated in your original post to sell one so it can pay for the other or something like that. So if someone here were to believe you after the little flame fest that just went on then it's their choice, but I certainly do not believe you one bit. Your decision to buy two and sell one to pay for another is understandable in a way, but in another way, you are shorting the common folk their chance. Pure and simple.


Three of us got there at 745 am. If you know only 400,000 are going to be available and you want one, then it's obvious you can't show up at 955am to try and get one.

That is more of the attitude that you have, unlike the flat out oh I would have given one up bs you touted. I like that you stand your convictions, right or wrong. That's a good thing.

And I have a job. And I have a way of making money off Ebay (not just with ps3's).. I'm doing the same thing as a previous poster stated.. using the extra money towards something else.
Yes, to pay for the other system. We know.


People kill me that get upset at that. It was also stated in most peoples description that you get your money back if the unit isn't secured. But the word pre-order may be the death of those ps3 posts. I will get my account back, just kind of got hammered for no reason and have to work on ebays schedule of when they choose to respond.
Well, you know that you cannot promise something to someone that you do not have, I mean, that's like showing up at 9:55 a.m. to a store expecting to get a PS3 when others had been there for at least 2 hours longer! Sheesh!


And I'm not whining, I actually thought it was an interesting topic for discussion.
Nah it came off as a whine, just being honest.


I'm business minded and have a Masters degree from NYU, so I'm not some idiot.
I'm fairly familiar with many people who were educated in some of the top schools in the country and some of them are idiots. Just a thought, not saying you are.


Ask yourself this , how much did you pay for your sneakers? Do you realize most sneakers cost no more then $15 to manufacture? So are you mad you got raped or was it your choice to buy those sneakers for quadruple the price.. Same thing. I'd hardly call myself raped for paying for shoes, but that's just me.


Here's the deal Dex. You came here to complain about your terror of a night trying to do "pr" work with your other buyers. I'm sure you were pissed off and confused all in the same, but the fact is, some of us may be jealous that you have two systems, some of us may be jealous that you thought of buying two and selling one when others didn't. I'm not in that crowd because I neither play many video games nor have the desire to pre-order consoles these days (I did get PS2 a month before anyone else, but that was a fluke). But in truth, you're mad and we're just kind of attacking you for sake of attacking you. Don't let it get under your skin. You and I both know that this is the way of the world. Might I remind you of TMX Elmo? Or Tickle me Elmo? The light is long and distinguished of toys that made it out on the market and are now being sold at a premium. This is an economist's wet dream and we know it.

Go sell your machine, but in the end, I agree that buying two and selling one ruined the chance of someone else getting one for $600 and not $2000, but hey...such is life right?

[MacRumorUser]

You're just one of those people that doesn't like others making money. If someone has the money to spend on it and rather not stand on line as others have, what is wrong with that?

taken from the book 'how to pre-judge 101' I assume :rolleyes:

Sony already have an expensive console that they know will be limited and have obviously decided to try and make sure the majority of their consoles end up in the hands of those that want them, rather than those that just wish to take advantage of the situation. That's why I congratulated them as its a positve step for gamers rather than raconteurs.

So a few people looking to make a quick buck get 1 avenue to them potentially blocked - wow big deal :rolleyes: , I'm sure your resourceful enough to find alternative location to sell your PS3, I just dont see why your crying like a big baby because Ebay have taken this action.
http://picturebook.chattablogs.com/archives/images/06_02_11.jpg
Does baby want his bottle ?

[SamIchi]

taken from the book 'how to pre-judge 101' I assume :rolleyes:

Sony already have an expensive console that they know will be limited and have obviously decided to try and make sure the majority of their consoles end up in the hands of those that want them, rather than those that just wish to take advantage of the situation. That's why I congratulated them as its a positve step for gamers rather than raconteurs.

So a few people looking to make a quick buck get 1 avenue to them potentially blocked - wow big deal :rolleyes: , I'm sure your resourceful enough to find alternative location to sell your PS3, I just dont see why your crying like a big baby because Ebay have taken this action.
http://picturebook.chattablogs.com/archives/images/06_02_11.jpg
Does baby want his bottle ?

Sony care about their consumers? :D Like any other business company, they could care less, as long as they get sold, it's profit for them.

Was there a release statement saying that eBay "and Sony" decided to take the preorders off? If so, link please. I'm assuming it's just eBay, they took notice that the poprular pre-orders were showing up with ridiculously high bids and took them down because they didn't want a bunch of people calling in and complaining about not recieving their item.

[duffman9000]

Why does everyone get so fired up on people selling the PS3's and Xbox 360's on ebay for a profit? If you want one, stand in line and wait your turn. It is not like the people who have them are STEALING them. So, if they get it fair and square, then it is their right to do what they want with it. If you do not like the price that they are selling it at, DON'T buy it?!?!

And for the record, I DO have a full time job. I DID stand in line and buy a PS3. And, I am going to sell it on ebay and use the profit to buy some Christmas gifts and if the sell goes really well, put the rest towards a macbook.

Everyone who has a job, earns an income because their company makes a profit off of somebody else. This is like people complaining that a retailer marks up the price from the supplier. If it is too high, do not buy it. If you want one sooooo bad, get off your @$$, stand in line, and get one.

To the poster, sorry to hear you got hammered by ebay. But, it may be a good thing, what if your pre order does not come in?!!! I am waiting until mine comes in to be safe.


QFT

For the whine bags that couldn't get a PS3: Do you realize that Sony is chiefly to blame here? Releasing 400k consoles is not enough.
(Hell blame the blue diode shortage)

If you don't like the prices, DON'T BID. If you couldn't get a PS3 because you didn't want to wait in line, TOUGH.

[davidjearly]

You know, I used to be "one of you" that was upset at the idea someone would "ruin" my chances of getting the new system, but honestly that is bullcrap.

The people that get extra get them because YOU (or ME) didn't get out there and pre-order one before they did, we could have if we really really tried (after all, they did), but we didn't - even if we KNEW the product was going to sell out.

What is even more ridiculous to me is that all you whiners are actually upset about is that you can't get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. The world is going to be DROWNED in PS3s eventually, probably some time next year.

You don't NEED one NOW, and if someone gets extra and sells them on eBay or by any other means, you are still going to be able to get the system later. Besides, if you don't already have your pre-ordered then guess what, you weren't going to get one anyway - so stop crying about it.

Just to clarify, my problem is with the 'greed' factor here and the fact that what he is doing is bullcrap. I didn't want to preorder one because I am not into gaming seriously enough, otherwise I'd have a 360.

The fact of it is, there is no need for one person to try and profit from buying more than one console at any time and trying to sell it on, not just at launch.

David

[DEXTERITY]

there is no greed factor. Its common F'n sense..how hard is it to figure out. U act like I'm the only one lmao..blame Sony.

no one is crying dumbass. I could care less if they took it down. That isn't the point. It's the other stuff that they did because of it. Cancelling other auctions, the emails, etc..

U can't tell me my tone is whining or crying because you are reading words not hearing me speak them. Did you see me stress the point of them taking it down. or did you read me state i was pissed about the other actions that followed.. it isn't that hard to understand.. not to mention I have stated that two times already.

And I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I am one of the most honest people out there. If one of the people I stood in line with got shorted one I wouldn't screw them out of theirs. I know managers in other stores besides game stop and I can get one from them if it came down to it.. I dont need the headache. one or two is good for me..

I don't need a ps3. but I damn sure aren't passing up a chance to double my money and pay for something else. seems like common sense. Doesn't make your morals better then mine. Because I have very high morals. Selling a ps3 on ebay hardly falls in the morals category. People love to hate.

In your world I'm entitled to at least one. So I have my one. And in America I can damn well choose what to do with it what I want. If no one was willing to pay for it, then they wouldn't sell now would they. And if Sony made more there wouldn't be a market for them.

And just for kicks, I didn't even have to stand in line. I was getting if if I wanted, no matter if I showed up or not. I chose to pay my dues like everyone else and stood in line like everyone else. I was even the first one there. If you don't think that most likely every manager held a few on the side for his friends, family and store employee's then held the rest for reserves you need a reality check. you snooze you lose. Things happen every day based on who someone knows or what they bring to the table. Don't hate me for knowing every manager in every store related to Video Games. I take care of them,they take care of me. IT'S CALLED THE REAL WORLD. If sony didn't have such a bad record when it comes to first gen stuff breaking,I would actually keep it.

I only posted this in the first place because it was interesting and I noticed no one else was aware of what was going on in regards to Ebay. People are so damn uptight online..

[duffman9000]

People love to hate.

Yeah they do. I love how people have pulled out their morality cards.

[davidjearly]

I was getting if if I wanted, no matter if I showed up or not. I chose to pay my dues like everyone else and stood in line like everyone else. I was even the first one there.

Oh of course you were. You really are the good samaritan aren't you, giving yourself an indigant boost by lowering yourself to such unnecessary standards. Good for you. You waited in line because you had to like everyone else. The things that go on in some people's little minds...

I used to work in retail btw, and I CAN tell you that it is BS that EVERY manager reserves highly anticipated unreleased products for their friends/family. How much BS can you come away with, honestly?

If your message was just 'to share this with the MR community' as you say, it is clear it is no longer wanted by most.

[duffman9000]

Oh of course you were. You really are the good samaritan aren't you, giving yourself an indigant boost by lowering yourself to such unnecessary standards. Good for you. You waited in line because you had to like everyone else. The things that go on in some people's little minds...

I used to work in retail btw, and I CAN tell you that it is BS that EVERY manager reserves highly anticipated unreleased products for their friends/family. How much BS can you come away with, honestly?

If your message was just 'to share this with the MR community' as you say, it is clear it is no longer wanted by most.

If you're going to analyze his words, then how can you say that his message is no longer wanted by most? If you are referring to the whinebags, then sure. For the people that do have preorders for PS3s and intend to sell them then his message is appreciated.

I know for a fact that some GameStops reserved more for store employees than they were supposed to. The one where i stood in line did just that. People were upset. So count at least one store that reserved more than they were supposed to.

[sikkinixx]

i think folks are getting choked at the scalpers because people are going "i got like 4 ps3's and im gonan sell them all and havea great xmas, i waited in line and now Im gonna get mega money mega fast"

wow, no one cares. Sell them if thats what you wanna do, but you don't need to go around bragging to everyone (online none the less...wow, because impressing people on MR is something to be proud of) that YOU got one only to sell it to morons who buy it. Who cares if ebay isn't working for it, go sell it somewhere else.

[duffman9000]

There are some people you will pay an extravagent amount of money on a PS3 just to have for Christmas, that's why it is so tempting to "slang" it. I've thought about selling mine only if someone offered me a lot of money(yeah define a lot...). I know that near Christmas people will get desperate. At worst i'd have a Blue-Ray player for my soon to be purchased HDTV.

[bobber205]

I read this topic the whole time thinking "Nintendo Rocks". Especially after that great cartoon.

[takao]

oh and good luck once you realize that quite a few thousand other had the same idea and ebay will be flooded with ps3 on launch day ;)

last years low numbers were a surprise to everyone with it's high ebay prices.. this time everybody knows about it and thus the market exploded: good to know that capitalism is two edged

[GimmeSlack12]

I don't see what the big deal is with what DEXTERITY is doing.

If I were in the states at this time I'd have bought as many PS3's as I could and sold all of them (I don't really want one). It's a buyers market guys, and if you don't like that then.... well then go cry to someone who cares. Then I'd laugh all the way to the bank (if eBay would let me).

[furious]

you got banned because you did not follow ebays directions. they even sent you an email stating what they expected of you. you burnt the bridge now get over it.

i think it is 30 days from the start of the action. could be wrong though.

[astupiddream]

It's pretty simple why you were suspended.

The first one got deleted right when it was at $1200 and I received an email stating I had to mention that any pre sale item has to state it will ship within 30 days of the auction ending. So I reposted it, did as I was told and two days later my account was suspended without being told why.

You reposted an auction that got canceled because it broke the rules. You could not ship out your PS3 within 30 days as Ebay warned you. But apparently you just saying it will ship within 30 days, when it can't cause even by today it doesn't come out for another 33 days.

[mkaake]

It's pretty simple why you were suspended.



You reposted an auction that got canceled because it broke the rules. You could not ship out your PS3 within 30 days as Ebay warned you. But apparently you just saying it will ship within 30 days, when it can't cause even by today it doesn't come out for another 33 days.

I think you mis-understood their email. It's not saying that the item has to ship w/in 30 days of the auction ending, it's saying that it has to ship w/in 30 days of the product being released.

That's how I read it anyway... I could be wrong, it happens from time to time :)

[AP_piano295]

First off why was the OP banned because nothing he has said in this post warrants it he's been more polite than the majority of the flamers...

So what exactly is your moral outrage here you guys if he bought one and sold that would you be pissed?

Why in your minds is selling the console HE PAID FOR bad it's anothers choice to buy it you cannot possibly say he's wrong for selling something that he bought just because other people wanted to buy it to.

Or are you saying the problem is that he bought 2 when lots of people want them? Then what if he bought 2 and planned to use both would that still bug you?

Or are you just pissed that he's annoyed at ebay for pulling off his auction because he's stated multiple times that he's not bugged at ebay for that but for sending libel to his other customers and debotching his character.

Or are you pissed because he's price gouging...because he is not, to price gouge you have to be selling something that people MUST have to survive. Like gas if you cannot get to work you cannot buy food so you must buy the gas whatever the price no one must have a ps3. (and further he is not even marketing the object at higher the manufacture value others CHOOSE to drive it that high.)

You have no moral reason to complain he hasnt stolen anything from anyone he hasnt defrauded anyone he hasnt even kept someone else from buyin the console. If it is aggainst the rules to sell preorders than it is aggainst the rules and he can remove the preorder and sell the console when he has it in hand but ebay had NO right to cancel his other auctions, or even to cancel this auction unless within their terms of service it states they have the right to cancel any auction or if states the sale of preorders is not allowed. Even if it does say this they have zero right under constituional law to inform his other costomers that he has undertaken some fradulent behavior when he has done nothing of the sort. (THIS IS LIBEL LIKE HOLDING UP A BIG SIGHN IN A CROWDED THEATRE THAT SAYS FIRE)

[MacRumorUser]

First off why was the OP banned because nothing he has said in this post warrants it he's been more polite than the majority of the flamers...

You havent seen the removed posts.

[sam10685]

I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but something funny is going on with the ps3 and ebay. I'm sure Sony can't make ebay shut down the bids. And it is legal to pre -sale if you state it properly... here is the long story"

I was able to get two ps3 reserves (and I know some don't like this, but please ..reality check). I put one on Ebay so the other one would pay for itself.

The first one got deleted right when it was at $1200 and I received an email stating I had to mention that any pre sale item has to state it will ship within 30 days of the auction ending. So I reposted it, did as I was told and two days later my account was suspended without being told why.

Any item I was selling (non ps3 related) were all cancelled and everyone who ever bid or bought something was sent an email basically implying I was suspended for fraud. nice way to ruin someones reputation and kind of a real harsh move especially considering they didn't even tell me what went wrong.. Which is total BS. That led to a frenzy of people freezing the money they paid on paypal for items in transit, already shipped , etc, etc, talk about having to do some serious damage control and pr work. Spent hours fixing that nightmare.

So I'm sitting there with perfect feedback, etc and no answers from ebay.

Last night I figured I would see how much ps3's are selling for. Almost everyone is gone or the links are invalid.

I've been trying to get to the situation resolved but ebay has replied to neither one of my inquires or appeals and they dont have a phone number..

Just wondered if anyone had a clue as to what was going on. it is kind of weird. I was thinking what did I do wrong that got me kicked off and that is the only thing I can think of (based on the other auctions being no longer active)...

kind of sucks lol.. worst case if no one else was able to sell any either.

good job ebay!! what you are doing (and lots of other people...) makes me want to grab the pepto bismol.

[duffman9000]

good job ebay!! what you are doing (and lots of other people...) makes me want to grab the pepto bismol.

Did you read the entire thread before posting your asinine remarks? If you don't like the prices on ebay for a particular item, DON'T BID. Why should anyone care that you don't like what people are doing with their PS3 preorders?

[clayj]

Pardon my ignorance, but how can you sell an item on eBay when you don't actually own it yet? I think eBay is right to stop ANY listings of PS3s until they are actually available in stores.

Personally, I think people who buy rare items like Xbox 360s, Wiis, and PS3s *just* so they can scalp them to someone else are scum. I appreciate that it's all part of a free market system, and it's not unethical, but I don't approve of it.

[sam10685]

I am one of the most honest people out there.

nobody said you were dishonest. EXTREME greed would sum it up.

[sam10685]

Did you read the entire thread before posting your asinine remarks? If you don't like the prices on ebay for a particular item, DON'T BID. Why should anyone care that you don't like what people are doing with their PS3 preorders?

sorry... it just sickens me that anyone would do that. i wouldn't pay $600 for a console and to hear that people are snatching them up just to put them on ebay to make a huge profit is really disturbing to me.

[GimmeSlack12]

nobody said you were dishonest. EXTREME greed would sum it up.
X-TREME Greed!

Gimme a break. He is re-selling one PS3 not five, or ten. I'm wasn't aware that MR consisted of so many damn whistle blowers. This whole thread is against a guy that is doing what many of you will have wished you did after you see the amount of money that is made in the end.

Extreme greed, hahaha, this is getting dumb now.

[RichP]

Is this thread for real?

I have made some decent money doing just what the OP has done. I am willing to provide the service of getting the system for people who are willing to pay. I am willing to put a deposit on the system 6 months before its release. I am willing to wait outside Walmart at 2AM for a shipment to buy a system. I am not blocking anyone else from buying the system at market value.

Doing this is providing a service for people that dont want to be bothered with lines or preorders. What is wrong with this! If someone wants a PS3, and dont want to pay the ebay premium, they can go right into the store, get the same preorder, and get the machine at MSRP.

FREE MARKET.

(PS. You know, there is a risk to this, sometimes the systems are NOT hot when they come out, like PSP. People who preordered them didnt make any money)

[suneohair]

Just an FYI. eBay is now pulling Wii auctions.

I preordered a Wii for myself. And let me tell you, once I saw them selling for $600 and $700 on eBay I was tempted. Still am.

There are a lot of people though with personal vendettas against the console scalpers and are bidding and winning auctions for the consoles when they have no intention of buying the item. Who is the scum now?

Fact is, a chance to make money is there. Who can ignore that? Maybe a hardcore gamer could because they want the system. But someone like me who is a casual gamer can easily live without the system for awhile.

Once the 20th comes around you better believe I will attempt to put my Wii on eBay. Which will easily pay for my Wii that I will camp out on the 19th to get. :D

[duffman9000]

sorry... it just sickens me that anyone would do that. i wouldn't pay $600 for a console and to hear that people are snatching them up just to put them on ebay to make a huge profit is really disturbing to me.

Do you own an ipod? A computer? How about electronic appliances in your home or apartment? Look at the markup at those items. The PS3 is one thing, third world labor constructing your favorite electronics or clothes is supposed to be different?

[suneohair]

Do you own an ipod? A computer? How about electronic appliances in your home or apartment? Look at the markup at those items. The PS3 is one thing, third world labor constructing your favorite electronics or clothes is supposed to be different?

Some people can't realize their own bigotry.

[sam10685]

Yeah, it's legal, but is it right?

no. should be illegal. ticket scalping is. this isn't really any different.

[sam10685]

Do you own an ipod? A computer? How about electronic appliances in your home or apartment? Look at the markup at those items. The PS3 is one thing, third world labor constructing your favorite electronics or clothes is supposed to be different?

we're not talking about the jacking up of prices on items that come out of the factories over in other countries. major corporations need to do that. that's how the economy works. we're talking about one dude buying 2 conceivably rare console's that aren't even out yet that very few people are going to get for 600 dollars then turning around and selling them at a very steep profit. i think it's wrong and should be illegal.

[l4t13]

You can still sell them, it just has to meet the rules. Sony doesnt care. They still make their 600$.

[AP_piano295]

no. should be illegal. ticket scalping is. this isn't really any different.

and do you know why?...yeah ur not the only one its one of those iffy laws.

In any case scalping is quite different from this you sell tickets to a one time event that will never happen again. All theese people have to do is wait another month or two and they'll have no problem snatching up a ps3.

but i'm just wondering do think that it's only okay to sell something at the price that you bought it?

or is it that its only okay to sell something if the demmand for said object is low?

know what I hate people who sell cars...do you know what they have the nerve the NERRRVE to mark that price up from what they buy it for.

[AP_piano295]

we're not talking about the jacking up of prices on items that come out of the factories over in other countries. major corporations need to do that. that's how the economy works. we're talking about one dude buying 2 conceivably rare console's that aren't even out yet that very few people are going to get for 600 dollars then turning around and selling them at a very steep profit. i think it's wrong and should be illegal.

why??? you just make statements you dont post any reason

by your logic big companys can do it because they are big companies but if one person wants to do it suddenly it's illegal.

[suneohair]

we're not talking about the jacking up of prices on items that come out of the factories over in other countries. major corporations need to do that. that's how the economy works. we're talking about one dude buying 2 conceivably rare console's that aren't even out yet that very few people are going to get for 600 dollars then turning around and selling them at a very steep profit. i think it's wrong and should be illegal.

Why should it be illegal? What if I see that my friend has some collectors item, he doesnt know what its worth so I offer him a small amount. He takes it. I turn around and sell for a profit. Is that wrong?

Scapling isn't really illegal. Doing it on the premises of the venue is however, even then it varies by state.
From wikipedia.org

"In the United States, ticket resale on the premises of the event (including adjacent parking lots that are officially part of the facility) may be prohibited by law, although these laws vary from state to state and the majority of U.S. statehoods do not have laws in place to limit the value placed on the resale amount of event tickets or where and how these tickets should be sold. Ticket resellers may conduct business on nearby sidewalks, or advertise through newspaper ads or ticket brokers. Some U.S. states and venues encourage a designated area for resellers to stand in on or near the premises, while other states and venues prohibit ticket resale altogether. Resale laws, policies and practices are generally decided, practiced and governed at the local or even venue level in the U.S. and such laws and or interpretations should never be generalized at a national level."

So there are people still who buy tickets (waiting in the line) and then they sell outrageous prices.

This will always be the case as long as people are willing to buy it. Now if no one bought the PS3's at these crazy prices there wouldnt be a problem. However they are materialistic (like the sellers) and thus they have to have it no matter what the price.

So no it shouldnt be illegal, because it is fair game. If people don't want it to happen, then they shouldnt buy at those prices.

[AP_piano295]

Why should it be illegal? What if I see that my friend has some collectors item, he doesnt know what its worth so I offer him a small amount. He takes it. I turn around and sell for a profit. Is that wrong?

yes you are essentially stealing from someone who has no idea what the value is. (you take it because you can)

selling a ps3 or a ticket is completely different your selling an object with a known value and everyone knows the value is. What they choose to pay is completely up to them, you dont force them misleed them defraud them in any way you have an object that you sell for whatever it is worth.

[evilgEEk]

There's so much talk about price gouging in this thread, when in fact this isn't price gouging in any way, shape or form.

DEXTERITY's prices aren't regulated, he's not forcing anyone to pay anything! It's the buyer who is driving up prices, not the seller.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this. Why is it wrong to make a return on your investment? If that's wrong then it's wrong for me to buy a house when the market is down and then sell it when it's hot. Same as investing in the stock market, that's wrong too, eh?

DEXTERITY isn't forcing anyone to pay exorbitant amounts of money for his product, they're doing this on their own free will, and are well aware of how much money they're paying for this item.

Supply and Demand, folks. If you feel the need to be angry at someone, be angry with Sony.

:rolleyes:

yes you are essentially stealing from someone who has no idea what the value is. (you take it because you can)
This is a moral issue, but it's not a legal issue. As an investor, whether that be with antiquities, baseball cards or houses, it's your responsibility to know what the value is of your investment. If you don't do the homework to find this out then you are putting yourself at risk.

Can the buyer bring himself to take advantage of said investor? Well, that's why it's a moral issue, and I can guarantee you there are plenty of people in this world that wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of someone for not doing their homework.

[suneohair]

yes you are essentially stealing from someone who has no idea what the value is. (you take it because you can)
How is that stealing? If they don't know the value that is there problem. What about the people who make money on eBay buy going to garage sales and thrift shops buying things and selling them for profit? Is that stealing too?



selling a ps3 or a ticket is completely different your selling an object with a known value and everyone knows the value is. What they choose to pay is completely up to them, you dont force them misleed them defraud them in any way you have an object that you sell for whatever it is worth.[/QUOTE]

Ok. So with that known, why is it wrong for someone to charge X amount if someone is willing to pay that amount?

No one is forcing anyone to buy at that price.You look at the auction and you bid/buy it now or you don't.

[mufflon]

Why should it be illegal? What if I see that my friend has some collectors item, he doesnt know what its worth so I offer him a small amount. He takes it. I turn around and sell for a profit. Is that wrong?

Scapling isn't really illegal. Doing it on the premises of the venue is however, even then it varies by state.
From wikipedia.org

...



Well my view on this is that anything which you can't defend morally isn't legal at all - humans have a conscience and a free will, if our free will is ruled by "me me me" rather than our conscience and our belief in the human race as a whole to uphold said moral standards then what are but mere clouds that darken the future of ourselves and our children.

If you somehow believe that your guilt free by "scraping" a ps3 then by all means do this if you benefit from it, but if you find any moral qualms about it in any way then don't - moral standards are the guide of who we are, if we begin by breaking our believes then we will find ourselves broken, empty husks bereft of meaningful content.

This view will most certainly been mentioned earlier and I don't really intend to point fingers at anyone, least of all the one I've quote, but it gave me the reason to write what I feel in this matter.

[bobber205]

While I would feel bad scalping a PS3, how stupid are some people to pay 1200 dollars for one?

[duffman9000]

Well my view on this is that anything which you can't defend morally isn't legal at all...

As long as you apply YOUR morals, right?

[sam10685]

Why should it be illegal? What if I see that my friend has some collectors item, he doesnt know what its worth so I offer him a small amount. He takes it. I turn around and sell for a profit. Is that wrong?

Scapling isn't really illegal. Doing it on the premises of the venue is however, even then it varies by state.
From wikipedia.org

"In the United States, ticket resale on the premises of the event (including adjacent parking lots that are officially part of the facility) may be prohibited by law, although these laws vary from state to state and the majority of U.S. statehoods do not have laws in place to limit the value placed on the resale amount of event tickets or where and how these tickets should be sold. Ticket resellers may conduct business on nearby sidewalks, or advertise through newspaper ads or ticket brokers. Some U.S. states and venues encourage a designated area for resellers to stand in on or near the premises, while other states and venues prohibit ticket resale altogether. Resale laws, policies and practices are generally decided, practiced and governed at the local or even venue level in the U.S. and such laws and or interpretations should never be generalized at a national level."

So there are people still who buy tickets (waiting in the line) and then they sell outrageous prices.

This will always be the case as long as people are willing to buy it. Now if no one bought the PS3's at these crazy prices there wouldnt be a problem. However they are materialistic (like the sellers) and thus they have to have it no matter what the price.

So no it shouldnt be illegal, because it is fair game. If people don't want it to happen, then they shouldnt buy at those prices.

that's taking advantage of your friend. i don't know why anyone would ever do that though... i'd tell the dude what it's worth and hope he gets a profit if he sells it. however, if you were to do that, it'd be the fault of your friends. you wouldn't jeopardizing the opportunity of someone else purchasing something for 600 dollars then turning around yourself and selling it for hundreds more.

[AP_piano295]

How is that stealing? If they don't know the value that is there problem. What about the people who make money on eBay buy going to garage sales and thrift shops buying things and selling them for profit? Is that stealing too?



selling a ps3 or a ticket is completely different your selling an object with a known value and everyone knows the value is. What they choose to pay is completely up to them, you dont force them misleed them defraud them in any way you have an object that you sell for whatever it is worth.

Ok. So with that known, why is it wrong for someone to charge X amount if someone is willing to pay that amount?

No one is forcing anyone to buy at that price.You look at the auction and you bid/buy it now or you don't.[/QUOTE]


I think it's fine to sell a ps3 for whatever price u can get (read my earlier posts)

But your example of offering someone much less than something is worth is misleading that person for personal gain. (when they dont know the value)

To sell a ps3 for more than market value isnt hurting anyone and if it is atleast they know it.

[AP_piano295]

that's taking advantage of your friend. i don't know why anyone would ever do that though... i'd tell the dude what it's worth and hope he gets a profit if he sells it. however, if you were to do that, it'd be the fault of your friends. you wouldn't jeopardizing the opportunity of someone else purchasing something for 600 dollars then turning around yourself and selling it for hundreds more.

no your more the type who would take advantage of a stranger...

after all it's ok as long as big companies do it....

[AP_piano295]

Well my view on this is that anything which you can't defend morally isn't legal at all - humans have a conscience and a free will, if our free will is ruled by "me me me" rather than our conscience and our belief in the human race as a whole to uphold said moral standards then what are but mere clouds that darken the future of ourselves and our children.

If you somehow believe that your guilt free by "scraping" a ps3 then by all means do this if you benefit from it, but if you find any moral qualms about it in any way then don't - moral standards are the guide of who we are, if we begin by breaking our believes then we will find ourselves broken, empty husks bereft of meaningful content.

This view will most certainly been mentioned earlier and I don't really intend to point fingers at anyone, least of all the one I've quote, but it gave me the reason to write what I feel in this matter.

...so who has a person who sells a ps3 on ebay harmed? If you can name one person than i'll be quiet.

[Oblivious]

Hehe, this advertisement struck me as a bit humorous after reading this ridiculous thread.:p

[mkaake]

Wow. So much hate going around on this thread. I think it can be summed up like this:

1. I want a PS3 (or whatever console). There are a limited number of them on the market, so I'm upset that someone buys them to re-sell. Since I'm being denied the ability to buy one on the first day, and it upsets me, there's someone to blame for the problem. It certainly can't be the console manufacturer, who's not making enough of the item - so it's the people who buy to sell. They're evil, and I want to shut them down, even though they're just making a few bucks off of people willing to pay too much for a console - the people who don't want to stand in line or mess around trying to get a pre-order.

2. Who cares? They're just making an example of the free market economy... if people are stupid enough to pay, let them pay.

What's my take on it?

Well first, be mad at the manufacturer who is either pushing a product that's not quite ready for market (and as such, can't produce the required components in the required quantity), or intentionally producing a small number to drum up demand. Second, well, I don't think there should be a second. While it may be frustrating to not get a PS3/X360/whatever on the *first* day it's available, it's really not the end of the world. If you couldn't get your pre-order in, and you can't wait, there are people who are willing to provide a service of pre-ordering the console for you. What you pay depends on how badly you can't wait to get the product, and is not determined by the seller, but rather by the masses, who determine what it's value is. Now, on that subject, there are those of you who feel that you couldn't get a console - and the only reason was those eBay-mongering peeps who went out and bought pre-orders to sell. Well shame on them for reducing supply. But let's be honest - how many X360's were sold on eBay versus the 400,000 that were sold from the first shipment? 100? 400? There certainly weren't a lot (which is why prices were driven so high), accounting for a veerrryyy small percentage of total sales. They weren't to blame for you not getting your <insert the blank> right away.


But what really gets me about this thread (and I'll get flamed for this part), is that people are getting so bent out of shape that people are pre-ordering with the intent to sell... because they themselves can't bear the thought of waiting for a second delivery of machines to hit the shores. They're the type of people who are creating the demand for the outrageous prices on eBay - but they turn around and complain that it's allowed to happen on eBay.

With the attitudes present by many here, eBay should be shut down, because no one should ever be able to sell any product for more than it's retail worth at any given point in time, and people should not be able to put their own value on products. And if they do, it's the seller's fault that they value the product at a far higher price than what it retails for.

Sheesh. Well, I'll be flamed for saying what I have, but I'm okay with that. I've been following this thread for a few days, and had to get that out. Of course, this all kindly ignores the fact that the OP was simply trying to find out why his auction was cancelled... even after he felt he had abided by their rules for posting a pre-order.

To the OP, it sounds like they're trying to shut down auctions because Sony can't confirm that consoles will be delivered as promised (a fair concern, if you ask me, given Sony's history). It would be nice though, if rather than shut down your account and send emails to people with pending transactions, they just told you what was going on in plain english.

To the rest, it might be time to take a break from the computer, and come back to this thread in a few days... let your mind clear up a little bit, and let's see if a) we need to continue this discussion, and b) if we can do it without the need for flames and/or name calling.

[evilgEEk]

...so who has a person who sells a ps3 on ebay harmed? If you can name one person than i'll be quiet.
And don't say the customer, because they're using their own free will to spend their money.

Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of folks out there that think spending $1,000+ is worth it so they don't have to bother with crowds and reservations, etc... These are people that are financially secure and paying the premium price doesn't bother them.

[duffman9000]

Hehe, this advertisement struck me as a bit humorous after reading this ridiculous thread.:p

Sweet...

End this by asking, "How can you sleep at night you crook?!?!?"

Reply, "On gobs on money!"

[MacRumorUser]

Thank-god I dont ever get advertisements ;) :D


I am on the fence - whilst I dont have any overtly moral stance - people can sell there own property for whatever people wish to pay, I am a gamer, and so if Ebay's action mean someone has more of a chance of getting one who would appreciate it more than someone looking just to sell, then that's ok by me.

I did think the OP moaning about Ebay's actions was a bit mopey though. If your going to take the stance that it's mine and I can do what I want with it - then It's ebay's site, they can do whatever they like with it. If they decide to take an action like this, yes it's inconvenient, but so what? Just go elsewhere, don't come here moaning about it, your already in a privileged position by having the chance to get a ps3 on launch, just be appreciative of the fact regardless of what you intend to do with it, rather than come on to a website and rubbing people who are not in such a privileged positions face in it.

------

anyway this thread has gone on way too long. let's put it to rest.

[mufflon]

...so who has a person who sells a ps3 on ebay harmed? If you can name one person than i'll be quiet.


Whoever who stood in line who didn't get one despite standing in line because the person ahead of them hogged one just for the sake of selling it - both invested the same amount of time and resources, but the hogger got it. You might think "it's no biggy" - but you don't have some kind of devine presence which gives you the ability to judge this - if it influences in a non-beneficial way then you can probably rest assured it's not helping whoever didn't get one at that time.

This is in my case more of a general point of view - I couldn't care less about the next gen consols atm, but I still consider it screwd, one could blame more than one part of the reselling chain (sony for only selling a handful / the buyer / whoever actually buys it at those pricves, thus generating an inflated market), however we are only debating the "person who resell" and no one is without blame.

If you don't see this as a problem then I suspect you would do the same as the OP given the possibility and/or interest. If you see nothing amoral with it then it's up to you - you might have other pressing concerns which matters more where a boost in your economy from reselling a PS3 might aid you with - or you might be seeking some kind of reselling thrill ("how much can I sell this for?") - do what is moral to you, not what is moral to me.

[AP_piano295]

Thank-god I dont ever get advertisements ;) :D


I am on the fence - whilst I dont have any overtly moral stance - people can sell there own property for whatever people wish to pay, I am a gamer, and so if Ebay's action mean someone has more of a chance of getting one who would appreciate it more than someone looking just to sell, then that's ok by me.

I did think the OP moaning about Ebay's actions was a bit mopey though. If your going to take the stance that it's mine and I can do what I want with it - then It's ebay's site, they can do whatever they like with it. If they decide to take an action like this, yes it's inconvenient, but so what? Just go elsewhere, don't come here moaning about it, your already in a privileged position by having the chance to get a ps3 on launch, just be appreciative of the fact regardless of what you intend to do with it, rather than come on to a website and rubbing people who are not in such a privileged positions face in it.

------

anyway this thread has gone on way too long. let's put it to rest.

i basically thought that ebays behavior was libelous (sending info to all the op's customers basically saying he's a fraud) and say our op was running a buisness through ebay this sort of behavior could seriously damage that buisness. (like if I went to a restaurant and posted an article saying i found a rat in my chicken noodle) i could be sued.

[AP_piano295]

Whoever who stood in line who didn't get one despite standing in line because the person ahead of them hogged one just for the sake of selling it - both invested the same amount of time and resources, but the hogger got it. You might think "it's no biggy" - but you don't have some kind of devine presence which gives you the ability to judge this - if it influences in a non-beneficial way then you can probably rest assured it's not helping whoever didn't get one at that time.

This is in my case more of a general point of view - I couldn't care less about the next gen consols atm, but I still consider it screwd, one could blame more than one part of the reselling chain (sony for only selling a handful / the buyer / whoever actually buys it at those pricves, thus generating an inflated market), however we are only debating the "person who resell" and no one is without blame.

If you don't see this as a problem then I suspect you would do the same as the OP given the possibility and/or interest. If you see nothing amoral with it then it's up to you - you might have other pressing concerns which matters more where a boost in your economy from reselling a PS3 might aid you with - or you might be seeking some kind of reselling thrill ("how much can I sell this for?") - do what is moral to you, not what is moral to me.

For one thing the person at the back of the line did not exert the same ammount of effort or they would be at the front of the line.

I agree with you for the most part i'm just posting because i'm amazed that people who live in a capitalist society can find fault in the practice of buying multiple systems to sell. If you do have a problem with it than never go to a retell store again...cause thats what they do simply at a larger volume.

I have no problem with people who take a moral high ground, I have a problem with people who act like they are already on moral high ground and tell others that theyre practices are "wrong". When they shamelessly support the system every day.

[MacRumorUser]

i basically thought that ebays behavior was libelous (sending info to all the op's customers basically saying he's a fraud) and say our op was running a buisness through ebay this sort of behavior could seriously damage that buisness. (like if I went to a restaurant and posted an article saying i found a rat in my chicken noodle) i could be sued.

As someone who has fallen for an ebay scam and lost over €2000 a couple of years back, it's re-assuring ebay are finally taking some pre-ventative action.

However it's important to look at this in context. Ebay had given the original poster warnings. He contiued to break their rules and they have a resposiblity to other ebay users and I imagine it was a standard warning letter they sent to people who had been in contact with him and I'm sure it will have been leaglly word perfect - they wouldnt put themselves in that position.

The OP had a major chip on his shoulder because ebay had inconvieniance him, and so was probably exagerating the situation to be honest. Dont worry I'm quite sure hes opened another ebay account under a different name and will sell his PS3 somewhere.

[Music_Producer]

Well done eBay, thats what I've got to say. I think it is a disgrace the amount of things like this that make it onto eBay. For every unit you have pre-ordered and intended to sell, you have prevented someone else from getting one at a reasonable price.

I can't stand people that do this just to 'make money'. Get a job like the rest of us (and if you already have one, there is no excuse toher than greed).

Disgusting.

Yeah.. disgusting huh? Funny how B&H, and all the top photo stores are selling the Nikon 18-200 mm (never in stock) for $899 when the retail price should be $649.

Dude, it happens everywhere. As long as there is a discrepancy between demand and supply, there will always be price fluctuations. If there were no shortage of PS3 units, then everyone would get one at the retail price. Period. It's silly to call people 'greedy'.. they're being business-savvy.

If you can't wait to get one in stores.. then you buy it from them.. if you want to buy it retail.. then simply wait.

Btw.. you might want to check out things that go on in corporations, etc.. they're greedier than ps3 sellers :p

[AP_piano295]

As someone who has fallen for an ebay scam and lost over €2000 a couple of years back, it's re-assuring ebay are finally taking some pre-ventative action.

However it's important to look at this in context. Ebay had given the original poster warnings. He contiued to break their rules and they have a resposiblity to other ebay users and I imagine it was a standard warning letter they sent to people who had been in contact with him and I'm sure it will have been leaglly word perfect - they wouldnt put themselves in that position.

The OP had a major chip on his shoulder because ebay had inconvieniance him, and so was probably exagerating the situation to be honest. Dont worry I'm quite sure hes opened another ebay account under a different name and will sell his PS3 somewhere.

He didnt break the rules he was notified of an error within his add and he changed it as ebay had directed.

[ReanimationLP]

eBay is cancelling these auctions because they're in violation of their service.

In order to presale something, the product MUST be a month or less away from the offical release.

[Krevnik]

I agree with you for the most part i'm just posting because i'm amazed that people who live in a capitalist society can find fault in the practice of buying multiple systems to sell. If you do have a problem with it than never go to a retell store again...cause thats what they do simply at a larger volume.


I tried to avoid this conversation, but there is a couple flaws in this particular argument.

First is the slippery slope. If buying 2 systems, to sell one at a markup is okay, when does it become illegal by artificially restricting supply (either by purposefully dropping production, or buying up all the supply) for the purposes of price inflation? How many of the 400k do you have to have? One can argue Sony is artificially restricting supply, but it doesn't mean Sony is using it to artificially raise the price, which is where the illegality comes in.

The second flaw is that retailers are doing the same thing. Well, not quite. Sony is setting an MSRP, which allows retailers to profit, while Sony loses money. Retailers are willing to follow MSRP even though the demand is higher or supply smaller. Why? Because they have to compete with other stores also selling at MSRP. When taking advantage of a shortage, and providing a product on the auction block, competition isn't between the sellers trying to get your money, it is between the consumers trying to get your product. The current retail system is tailored to a system where the supply is equal to, or higher, than demand, and actually benefits customers to an extent. It breaks down once supply drops lower than demand, like we tend to see with product launches with large pent-up demand, since it then makes it profitable for people to add their own profit margin onto the retailers'.

This behavior is market speculation (although in this case, not much speculation is needed). It is legal on the scales people are talking about, yes, but to try to say you are just being as 'nice' as a retailer? Not really, Sony and the retailers are being 'nicer' since they aren't going over MSRP in this case. If it wasn't for the retailers being nice in these situations, you wouldn't have a profit margin to make.

It's silly to call people 'greedy'.. they're being business-savvy.

I just want to say something here, not trying to nit-pick this time, but just some food for thought: The only difference between greed and business sense is that one is the desire, while the other is the key to fulfilling it.

There are plenty of people who could take a PS3, sell it, and pay off loans, or invest it in their retirement. Great, that is sustaining the future on an opportunity. Using a PS3 sale to pay for a new shiny TV when they have debt, or don't have investments for the future? I would say that is closer to the dictionary definition of greed.

[suneohair]

I just want to say something here, not trying to nit-pick this time, but just some food for thought: The only difference between greed and business sense is that one is the desire, while the other is the key to fulfilling it.

There are plenty of people who could take a PS3, sell it, and pay off loans, or invest it in their retirement. Great, that is sustaining the future on an opportunity. Using a PS3 sale to pay for a new shiny TV when they have debt, or don't have investments for the future? I would say that is closer to the dictionary definition of greed.

And how do you know if someone does or does not have debt? This is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

What is the difference between buying something nice with the profits (tv, whatever) and 'investing' in your retirement, paying off loans or whatever?

Let me tell you. ZERO. There is no difference. When you put money into retirement it is so you can buy stuff later, no? When you pay off that loan what is the point? So that you can open more loans in the future.

IF you want the dictionary definition for greed why don't you open the damn dictionary.

intense and selfish desire for something

Tell me that paying off loans or investing doesnt fit into that? In society we draw the line when you begin to hurt people to get to that 'something'

In the case of selling PS3's no one is being hurt. The seller wins because he had the diligence and foresight to see an opportunity and capatilize on it. The buyer wins because they got the item they wanted at a price they were WILLING to pay.

So please cut your silly arguments. If you don't think it is morally correct, guess what you have the option of not doing it.

[l4t13]

ive got two im selling and plan to buy a c2d macbook when they come out. =D

[Krevnik]

IF you want the dictionary definition for greed why don't you open the damn dictionary.

Okay, let's do that a couple more times...


excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves

An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.

I did open the dictionary, the key word in all three sources is 'excessive', or in your case 'intense'. While one can argue where excess begins, can you argue that attempting to keep your checkbook in the black is excessive? Not really. Excess enters into play at some arbitrary, hard to define point, where needs are amply met, and you are now using your business savvy to expand beyond this point. If we wanted to look at this as objectively as possible in this sense... HDTVs and PS3s are classified as luxury goods. I could pose the argument that paying off debt is closer to a need than buying a luxury good. Since you won't have lawyers coming to ruin your financial future if you decide to not buy an HDTV, but they will if you decide to not pay your monthly payments.

And remember, the final moral judge as to what excess is, is the person having to live with the decision. I cannot, and will not stare over perople's shoulders and 'authorize' their behavior. I leave it to their own subjective moral code to do that work. I can put my subjective opinion out there, but it is entirely up to you to decide where it belongs in your moral code (if it does at all).

EDIT: A little additional note, here actually... by definition, the people buying the PS3s at absurd prices are greedy. ;)


Tell me that paying off loans or investing doesnt fit into that? In society we draw the line when you begin to hurt people to get to that 'something'

In the case of selling PS3's no one is being hurt. The seller wins because he had the diligence and foresight to see an opportunity and capatilize on it. The buyer wins because they got the item they wanted at a price they were WILLING to pay.

Hurt is a problematic term, and nebulous, in this argument. Financial hurt is concrete, and I agree it is hard to say that such a thing truly exists if the person buying it can afford the price. On the other hand, the buyer is rarely the person standing in line behind the seller who didn't get one because the seller got two. Which hurt is more important? According to our society, you have to show the financial or physical harm. Neither exists in this case, so legally, it is clean. The guy in line just waits a little longer until supply catches up.

There is a reason why I never tried to bring up the 'it hurts the buyers' argument in my post... it can't be defended, but on the other side, it is too nebulous a concept to say that you don't hurt the buyers either. It is all too subjective.

So please cut your silly arguments. If you don't think it is morally correct, guess what you have the option of not doing it.

Hmm, I suppose I did come off as saying "This isn't morally correct"... but silly arguments? Hardly... My biggest problem is that I walked right into the subjective subject of 'what is greed'. This is why I used the qualifier 'dictionary definition'.

I have my system, I waited in line for it, and I honestly don't care if you or others have systems being placed up for auction. It is market speculation, and perfectly legal. I just take issue with this concept that people feel like they are 'morally right' and anyone who disagrees is silly. Morality is not black and white, right and wrong... it is a spectrum, and the spectrum is subjective. Although to place an eBay seller at the same 'nice' level as a retailer, when if it wasn't for the retailer sticking to MSRP, despite knowing the true market price, the eBay seller wouldn't have a profit to make? That is silly. ;)

[it5five]

no. should be illegal. ticket scalping is. this isn't really any different.

Ticket scalping isn't illegal in every state.

[macman2790]

i think it's stupid to sell stuff like that on ebay for ridiculous prices just to put money in your pocket. I'm glad that DEXTERITY got suspended from ebay and banned from macrumors.

[it5five]

What you don't seem to understand is that DEXTERITY isn't selling anything for an outrageous price. People are BUYING them at a outrageous price which they decide. That's how an auction works.

[slick316]

eBay is probably having a lot of issues with people putting up auctions for pre order PS3's. I'm quite sure that you must sell a product or service on eBay, not something that can be deemed unguaranteed (depending on where you preordered and what number you have, you still may not get a launch day system).
The actual system, once in your hands, will sell on eBay, they can't deny that. If anything, you do not put it up in a "buy it now" auction and put the reserve high.
I'm still debating on whether I should keep mine (I have one preordered), or sell it on eBay. I won't have much time until mid January to use it since I have a whole lot going on the next few months. The extra money can come in handy. If someone is willing to pay $1500 for my PS3, they can have it. I don't care what anyone says. After I buy it, it is mine, I can do whatever I want with it. I can keep it, sell it, throw it off a 30 story building, heck, I can keep the thing wrapped up in the packaging and store it in my closet for 10 years, its mine and I can do whatever I want with it. Its not even like I did something special to get one. I stood in a short line at the local Gamestop on the day they started taking pre orders, gave them my info and $100 and done, pre ordered.
The only thing the original poster did wrong was ignore eBay's warning (I had it happen to me once, but I didn't make the same mistake twice). He paid for it, and thats it.

[shortyjj]

Supply and Demand, folks. If you feel the need to be angry at someone, be angry with Sony.


You're right - I take issue with Sony and the retailers allowing people to order more than one. They're obviously going to be scalpers.

If the first guy in line had the capital and bought the *entire* stock of PS3's, would that be right?

[Krevnik]

The only thing the original poster did wrong was ignore eBay's warning (I had it happen to me once, but I didn't make the same mistake twice). He paid for it, and thats it.

Bingo. The issue is that A) He posted it more than 30 days before the date it would be in his hands (which is against the TOS)... and B) eBay is changing their policy to possibly remove any pre-sales from being allowed. Apparently there was more than a few problems with the 360, with those selling pre-orders not being able to actually deliver a box on launch day. eBay is claiming that it made them look bad, and so apparently as all the pre-orders crop up again, they are tightening restrictions to cover their ass this time around.

Sometimes, when you take a risk, you get burned by someone not willing to take that same risk.

[bobber205]

You're right - I take issue with Sony and the retailers allowing people to order more than one. They're obviously going to be scalpers.

If the first guy in line had the capital and bought the *entire* stock of PS3's, would that be right?

I agree. Why would you need more than one? How many people are genuinely getting one "for" a friend? :rolleyes:

[duffman9000]

i think it's stupid to sell stuff like that on ebay for ridiculous prices just to put money in your pocket. I'm glad that DEXTERITY got suspended from ebay and banned from macrumors.

Oh really? Getting in on the ground floor, buying cheap, selling high... does that ring a bell? Welcome to the real world child.

If you had college loans to pay off, would you have the business savy to double your money?

[duffman9000]

You're right - I take issue with Sony and the retailers allowing people to order more than one. They're obviously going to be scalpers.

If the first guy in line had the capital and bought the *entire* stock of PS3's, would that be right?

Ok wise guy, and who allowed a customer to walk out of the store with multiple preorders? No one, there would have been riots. People *did* preorder multiple PS3s by having someone stand in line with them. Big difference. No one person was allowed to preorder more than one.

I have the credit to buy the store's entire 16 preorders and i know i wasn't alone. People are talking without knowing just what went on that day.

[AppleIntelRock]

When you pre-order more than one and use the second to sell on e-bay, that's basically taking away someone else's unit that they had to pre-order, lay down a deposit, and wait like everyone else. It's just not fair to hoard the extra units simply because you come before everyone else in line.

It's no different to the real estate boom down here in parts of Florida: speculators would swarm into a new development and buy up most of the new homes, only to later turn around and "flip" the property at a higher price to those who really need a home.

Yeah, it's legal, but is it right?

Yes it is right. Trust me, there are a lot worse things in life then investing in real estate. Plus, whats wrong with someone making a little cash? I could see everyone getting angry if it were say... bread during the Parisian bread shortages, but PS3's! What a joke! If it really makes some of you ill, you need to re-sort your priorities.

[sam10685]

Ticket scalping isn't illegal in every state.

i know that. i meant it was illegal in most places. sorry.


i think it's stupid to sell stuff like that on ebay for ridiculous prices just to put money in your pocket. I'm glad that DEXTERITY got suspended from ebay and banned from macrumors.

i completely agree.

[mcmadhatter]

Its jsut supply and demand, It's just the same as playing the stock market. It is perfectly legal and moral, if you don't like it and winge cos the guy in front got two ps3's and you got none, then just get there 5 mins before him next time. Stop whining like school children.

I shall buy a PS3, and list it on ebay starting at 1p, it'll probably sell for £700-800 I'm not selling it at inflated prices, I am lettign the market decide what it is worth.

[takao]

Its jsut supply and demand, It's just the same as playing the stock market. It is perfectly legal and moral, if you don't like it and winge cos the guy in front got two ps3's and you got none, then just get there 5 mins before him next time. Stop whining like school children.


except that in this case the person who came here whining was actually the ebay reseller, which is kinda ironic, isn't it ?

that aside: actually people got turned away without a preorder who do game for a _living_ (like quite a few game reviewers)

[mkaake]

He wasn't whining, he was asking why his account got shut down, because he felt that he had adhered to the eBay TOS; and was asking people what they thought happened.

Then the real whiners showed up and turned the thread into 5 pages of flame, managing to ignore most all of the reasonable posts in the thread (on both sides of the issue, mind you).

FWIW, reading what eBay sent to him, I thought his re-posted auction followed the eBay TOS, so I'm also curious why they would shut down his account when he attempted to follow the rules without any communication. I've pre-ordered DVD's more than 1 month before they were available on eBay before, so I also took the message to mean that he had to put in a disclaimer saying that he would ship w/in 30 days of the *anticipated delivery date*, as stated in the auction.

*shrugs shoulders*

[slick316]

He wasn't whining, he was asking why his account got shut down, because he felt that he had adhered to the eBay TOS; and was asking people what they thought happened.

Then the real whiners showed up and turned the thread into 5 pages of flame, managing to ignore most all of the reasonable posts in the thread (on both sides of the issue, mind you).

FWIW, reading what eBay sent to him, I thought his re-posted auction followed the eBay TOS, so I'm also curious why they would shut down his account when he attempted to follow the rules without any communication. I've pre-ordered DVD's more than 1 month before they were available on eBay before, so I also took the message to mean that he had to put in a disclaimer saying that he would ship w/in 30 days of the *anticipated delivery date*, as stated in the auction.

*shrugs shoulders*

I think eBay is taking a bigger stand on the PS3 pre orders this year, probably with what must of went on last year with X360 pre orders, I doubt they care as much about DVD pre orders. eBay is doing a lot of new things to keep peoples buying experience more enjoyable, this is one of the things.
And for the record, nobody, and I mean not a single person on the face of the earth, needs a PS3. If I picked up my launch system and was approached by a person wanting to buy it from me at $2000, am I a jackass for selling it at over 3 times its cost, or is the person buying it from me a jackass for wanting to spend over 3 times as much on one? Its not a neccessity of life, move on.

[Sky Blue]

I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but something funny is going on with the ps3 and ebay. I'm sure Sony can't make ebay shut down the bids. And it is legal to pre -sale if you state it properly... here is the long story"

I was able to get two ps3 reserves (and I know some don't like this, but please ..reality check). I put one on Ebay so the other one would pay for itself.

The first one got deleted right when it was at $1200 and I received an email stating I had to mention that any pre sale item has to state it will ship within 30 days of the auction ending. So I reposted it, did as I was told and two days later my account was suspended without being told why.

Any item I was selling (non ps3 related) were all cancelled and everyone who ever bid or bought something was sent an email basically implying I was suspended for fraud. nice way to ruin someones reputation and kind of a real harsh move especially considering they didn't even tell me what went wrong.. Which is total BS. That led to a frenzy of people freezing the money they paid on paypal for items in transit, already shipped , etc, etc, talk about having to do some serious damage control and pr work. Spent hours fixing that nightmare.

So I'm sitting there with perfect feedback, etc and no answers from ebay.

Last night I figured I would see how much ps3's are selling for. Almost everyone is gone or the links are invalid.

I've been trying to get to the situation resolved but ebay has replied to neither one of my inquires or appeals and they dont have a phone number..

Just wondered if anyone had a clue as to what was going on. it is kind of weird. I was thinking what did I do wrong that got me kicked off and that is the only thing I can think of (based on the other auctions being no longer active)...

kind of sucks lol.. worst case if no one else was able to sell any either.

I have a lot of respect for EBay for this. People who do mulitple preorders just to resell are scum.

[Haoshiro]

I have a lot of respect for EBay for this. People who do mulitple preorders just to resell are scum.

Man! People are uptight about their entertainment devices! LOL.

Yeah, all those jerks are preventing everyone from EVER getting one of life's great necessities: a PS3. Sony won't be making millions of these suckers, so people that get two and then sell them to people that want them are most definitely scum!

[excetara2]

Agreed. I hate people that buy them and don't even plan on using them.

[duffman9000]

I have a lot of respect for EBay for this. People who do mulitple preorders just to resell are scum.

Thank you for your insightful comments.

[duffman9000]

Agreed. I hate people that buy them and don't even plan on using them.

The kids must have been let out early today... people that are selling their preorders ARE using their PS3s although the systems are being used for different purposes. Some are being used to fund new computers. Some are being used to pay off debt. Hell, some are being used to fund the purchase of other useless christmas junk that they don't NEED.

[evilgEEk]

Everyone's blaming the seller. Why?

Don't you realize that it's the BUYER that is jacking the prices up? If I had a PS3 and listed it at $1, and then the consumer bids it up to $1,000, who has caused the price to go up?

Certainly not the seller, he listed it at $1. If ebay consumers had an ounce of intelligence, no one would bid until the last 10 seconds of any auction to ensure the best price possible.

The seller is providing a service to those that weren't able to reserve one or that didn't bother attempting to reserve one, and he gets flamed for that? It's not his fault consumers are stupid. :rolleyes:

Stop being angry with the wrong people.

[Krevnik]

Everyone's blaming the seller. Why?

Don't you realize that it's the BUYER that is jacking the prices up? If I had a PS3 and listed it at $1, and then the consumer bids it up to $1,000, who has caused the price to go up?

Certainly not the seller, he listed it at $1. If ebay consumers had an ounce of intelligence, no one would bid until the last 10 seconds of any auction to ensure the best price possible.

The seller is providing a service to those that weren't able to reserve one or that didn't bother attempting to reserve one, and he gets flamed for that? It's not his fault consumers are stupid. :rolleyes:

Stop being angry with the wrong people.

Meh, the buyers and sellers are in similar company. The seller is posting it with the intent that it will turn a profit. That is expectation that the price will be higher than what he paid, even if he lists it for 1$. The buyer is bidding with the intent to fulfill some bizarre desire to have a luxury good, no matter the price. I don't really see the difference since depending on where the seller is putting that money, you could claim greed on the part of the seller and buyer.

The biggest beef one should have with the seller is selling a good before he has a good to sell. When the store uses a nasty ol' disclaimer that you aren't guaranteed to get one, even though you pre-ordered one... selling this non-guarantee as a guarantee is potentially misleading the customer. eBay got fed up with the sellers who sold 360 pre-orders, and changed their policies of 30 days to 'you gotta have it' for the PS3 and Wii, expecting problems like they saw last year. The only true stupidity on the part of eBay here was not correctly informing the seller that the policies changed. Granted, eBay also has a policy that they don't have to inform you about policy changes. Go figure.

[savar]

congrats to sony. I'm glad Sony & Ebay are taking this action, at least they are being pro-active for a change.

Laissez faire!

Bummer, I really wanted to buy/sell some PS3's. Are you sure it isn't because they're still a ways from coming out? I mean can you really promise to ship within 30 days of auction close?

If I was able to get one I was thinking I'd wait until closer to Xmas.

How'd you get 2 by the way? I only heard about one prelease -- EB Games -- that sold out in 25 minutes.

[savar]

Thanks Dexterity, you made my day! Ebay gouger gets shut down and comes to forum whining about it. Nice. To put it in terms you might understand: with the opportunity to profit there is usually some risk. The less ethical the profit, the greater the risk.

There's hardly any risk. Even if EBay does by some chance enjoin resale of PS3's (can't think of one legal reason they could), there are still plenty of other avenues for selling one. And if the supply is as short as we are expecting it to be, the market will keep the price high in all of those avenues.

Nobody's getting ripped off here. People pay what they think the PS3 is worth. For a family that makes $500k a year, $1200 on a PS3 for the kids is pocket change. If you can't afford that or don't think it's worth that, then you'll just have to wait a few months. Boo hoo.

[maxi]

I think that it's perfectly OK to sell your PS3 on ebay, I would wait to have it in my hand.. but to each his own.
But, as someone mentioned earlier... Every recount I've seen about the gamestop pre sale had about half of the people in the line buying the PS3 to sell it in ebay. doing some conservative numbers, anywhere from 10k to 30k PS3 could end up in ebay (all coming from the gamestop pre sale).... it's supply and demand after all, but I don't see how inflated the price can be when there are so many PS3 lying around....

I have a feeling these won't sell for that much money in ebay, sure the people will make a profit, but I don't think they'll double their money this time around.

[evilgEEk]

Meh, the buyers and sellers are in similar company. The seller is posting it with the intent that it will turn a profit. That is expectation that the price will be higher than what he paid, even if he lists it for 1$. The buyer is bidding with the intent to fulfill some bizarre desire to have a luxury good, no matter the price. I don't really see the difference since depending on where the seller is putting that money, you could claim greed on the part of the seller and buyer.

[QUOTE=Krevnik]The biggest beef one should have with the seller is selling a good before he has a good to sell. When the store uses a nasty ol' disclaimer that you aren't guaranteed to get one, even though you pre-ordered one... selling this non-guarantee as a guarantee is potentially misleading the customer.
I absolutely agree with you on the point of the pre-sell. You shouldn't guarantee a pre-sell without knowing you will have the product delivered on time.

Meh, the buyers and sellers are in similar company. The seller is posting it with the intent that it will turn a profit.
Rather you should say the seller is posting the auction with the hope that it will turn a profit. We all know it will, of course, but strange things sometimes happen. And the bottom line is the fact that the buyer is still the one who is driving up the price. Once that auction is posted, the seller no longer has control over the prices, it's all in the buyer's hand.

[savar]

Greed, its destroying this country because it seems our govt is pushing all forms of it, Selling something that you dont even have is pretty discusting. Good for Ebay.

Holy cow...usually people on these forums know what they're talking about.

Have you ever heard of selling short? Trading on margin? Taking out a mortgage?

We conduct transactions with things that don't belong to us on a regular basis. It's a fundamental feature of our economy, without which we'd still be in the middle ages.

[savar]

we're not talking about the jacking up of prices on items that come out of the factories over in other countries. major corporations need to do that. that's how the economy works. we're talking about one dude buying 2 conceivably rare console's that aren't even out yet that very few people are going to get for 600 dollars then turning around and selling them at a very steep profit. i think it's wrong and should be illegal.

Nobody with this opinion has yet to offer any reasonable argument why it's morally wrong to profit from selling a PS3 when they are in high demand. Until you do, I think we can all safely ignore your argument.

My argument in defense of selling a PS3?

Freedom. I believe in the right to freedom that does not impinge on other people's ability to exercise their own freedom.

Dexterity isn't preventing anybody else from owning a PS3, nor even owning one at the same time as him. If he gets lucky and gets a preorder that somebody else was also waiting for, then it is what is: he simply got lucky. It's like winning the lottery. And you would have us believe that cashing a winning lotto ticket is immoral because everybody else wanted one too.

What if you bought a PS3 for yourself, and then two weeks later you lost your job. Now you want to sell it to free up some cash. One potential buyer offers you MSRP $600, and the other offers you the market equilibrium price $1200. Which one do you sell to? It's called demand elasticity, and video game systems are just some of the thousands of commodities which demonstrate surprisingly high elasticity.

[Swarmlord]

He should be grateful the world isn't made up of people like me. He'd eat the original purchase price, the cost of listing on eBay and have to look at the box sitting in his house/garage/warehouse for at least six months while it depreciated. Only then would I consider taking it off his hands at a substantial discount.

An addiction that causes a person to overpay a middleman through eBay just to be the first to have something must be a terrible thing.

[Haoshiro]

savar: exactly! i've been extremely unimpressed with the lack of intelligence and logic with the majority of posters in this thread.

in the end it likely boils down to pure greed, people are upset at the idea because they want the product for themselves and feel anyone buying to sell is hindering that goal. to top it off they accuse the sellers of greed; the same fuel that is running them as well.

[evilgEEk]

He should be grateful the world isn't made up of people like me.
If the world were made up of just people such as yourself then no one would ever profit from anything. What he is doing is no different than trading on the stock market, so should that be illegal? Should I be thrown in prison for investing in real estate? Should Apple be shut down for charging a premium for their computers?

No, I think we should all be grateful, not just him.

[sikkinixx]

why is everyone still talking about this?

[evilgEEk]

why is everyone still talking about this?
Because we have nothing better to do? ;)

[e²Studios]

So who is worse since the moral card is out there, is it the person that is trying to make a buck off of something that is pretty much guarenteed to bring in a profit. Or is it the person that forks out 2k + for the system on ebay more likely than not for their already spoiled children. It all comes full circle when you really think about it.

[Krevnik]

Rather you should say the seller is posting the auction with the hope that it will turn a profit. We all know it will, of course, but strange things sometimes happen. And the bottom line is the fact that the buyer is still the one who is driving up the price. Once that auction is posted, the seller no longer has control over the prices, it's all in the buyer's hand.

There is a difference between hope and intent. The sellers posting have /intent/, they bought the console with the purpose of making money from it. While hope is a part of that, the simple act of pre-meditated market speculation includes intent. Intent doesn't preclude things happening either. I may intend to grind out my product in time for release, but it doesn't mean that I /will/.

But if I know my market well enough, I am not placing it entirely in the hands of the buyer. By knowing how eBay works, and the likely pricing, I can make informed decisions, much like the sellers are doing. While you don't know exactly how much you will make, you do know you will get a return on your investment.

[sikkinixx]

Because we have nothing better to do? ;)


lol i suppose the better question is why i am responding to this?

[mkaake]

lol i suppose the better question is why i am responding to this?

So we can keep it on the front page, fueling the fires? :D

It's amazing though, how some of the more... reactionary folk... are ignoring a lot of the well thought out posts on here.

Well, I just added my little bit. Now let's change the topic: how many posts before it's locked and/or wastelanded??

my guess? 12.

[wyatt23]

if you can't sell em on ebay... sell em on macrumors! and craigslist! and ioffer! and uBid! .... and if ebay doesn't want the business that selling ps3's and ps3 vouchers, then tell ebay to go to hell. buncha limey jerks anyway.

[0s and 1s]

Is it November yet? :p

[markjones05]

That is bull. If this is the start of a trend I forsee the end of ebay and a multitude of other clones that dont have such strict rules. ... sell it on craigslist.

[DEXTERITY]

Bingo. The issue is that A) He posted it more than 30 days before the date it would be in his hands (which is against the TOS)... and B) eBay is changing their policy to possibly remove any pre-sales from being allowed. Apparently there was more than a few problems with the 360, with those selling pre-orders not being able to actually deliver a box on launch day. eBay is claiming that it made them look bad, and so apparently as all the pre-orders crop up again, they are tightening restrictions to cover their ass this time around.

Sometimes, when you take a risk, you get burned by someone not willing to take that same risk.


WRONG. now that i can post again. Banned for 2 days for calling someone a dumb-----.. amazing. first ebay, now MR. my life is crumbling lmao.......no disrespect intended....

anyways. The policy is YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SHIP THE PRODUCT WITHIN 30 DAYS OF THE AUCTION ENDING. NOV. 17TH IS NOT THAT FAR AWAY. IF YOU ARE DOING A 7 OR 10 AUCTION IT FALLS WITHIN THAT TIME FRAME... so as of now I still don't know whats going on.. All I know is I have to send a copy of my ID along with pictures of everything I was selling. The id has to be in the same pic of the product if I dont have receipts. talk about lack of communication. I still wasn't given a reason.. now to go catch up on the the old posts.. thanks to those who posted on my behalf......

[DEXTERITY]

As someone who has fallen for an ebay scam and lost over €2000 a couple of years back, it's re-assuring ebay are finally taking some pre-ventative action.

However it's important to look at this in context. Ebay had given the original poster warnings. He contiued to break their rules and they have a resposiblity to other ebay users and I imagine it was a standard warning letter they sent to people who had been in contact with him and I'm sure it will have been leaglly word perfect - they wouldnt put themselves in that position.

The OP had a major chip on his shoulder because ebay had inconvieniance him, and so was probably exagerating the situation to be honest. Dont worry I'm quite sure hes opened another ebay account under a different name and will sell his PS3 somewhere.

It's amazing no one reads what was really posted. I WAS GIVEN ONE WARNING. I FoLLOWED THE WARNING and changed exactly what they told me to change to the T. What happened next caught me way off gaurd. So yes, EBAY did go waaaay overboard the way they handled the situation. Communication is key and just up and trashing someones reputation who has never had a problem (Feedback speaks the truth on EBAY) over one item is way over board.

At least the topic did spark some debate, lol.. sorry for the double posts..

[suneohair]

It's amazing no one reads what was really posted. I WAS GIVEN ONE WARNING. I FoLLOWED THE WARNING and changed exactly what they told me to change to the T. What happened next caught me way off gaurd. So yes, EBAY did go waaaay overboard the way they handled the situation. Communication is key and just up and trashing someones reputation who has never had a problem (Feedback speaks the truth on EBAY) over one item is way over board.

At least the topic did spark some debate, lol.. sorry for the double posts..

No. You changed it to say that you can ship it on whatever date. Knowing full well that you could not. Which is why eBay removed it.

You should have just waited. eBay is pulling every PS3 and Wii auction down within 10 minutes of posting.

I emailed and asked why. I am still awaiting a response.

You broke eBays rules. You couldnt ship it on the date you said because it is even out on that date. So they took you down.

[DEXTERITY]

well some people read my original post (thank you) and some just assumed I was whining. My post hardly had that tone if you actually read it with a clear mind.. It was really straight to the point...

anyways, Some are glad I was banned (feel better about reporting me for a personal insult after you said you're happy I had to deal with the aftermath which had nothing to do with the ps3 )? wow, amazing, I have been a member of MR for years, never had a problem, caused a problem, and provided plenty of insider info in regards to certain things. I've also been very grateful for any advice I've been given in regards to certain computer related topics...

and you're glad I was banned from MR and Ebay over reacted for pre selling a ps3..thats the attitude that will get you through life happy lol...

You still didn't answer the original question. DO YOU SHOP AT WALMART, BEST BUY OR TARGET? if so, please don't comment anymore on morals! do you download mp3's? copy cd's, software from friends? I can go on if you think pre selling something has something to do with morals..

I love people who are so filled with hate and anger.. amazing..
anyways,

I changed the ebay post according to what their rules stated (which they emailed me). If my ps3 auction was changed to a 10 day auction (which it was) it wouldn't have ended until around the October 20th.. November 17th is not 30 days later.. so no I changed it so it fell within 30 days and would ship within 30days.

I never pre sold something before so it was my mistake I wasn't aware of the policy. But I did what they told me to and corrected what was wrong. now if they decided to take a strong stance against pre-sales. Fine, that is their right. But the way it was handled is beyond stupid and was way over board (especially when it affects other business which had nothing to do with it). Nor did they communicate that stance to me. A simple solution, take down the ps3 listing, let me know why, say never do it again or your banned, and keep it moving. Especially in regards to someone with 100% perfect feedback which is what EBAY is based around. Its a world where you actually learn to trust people based on simple feedback. Doesn't happen to many other times in life.. perfect strangers, trusting perfect strangers, based on simple feedback.

And for those who are so hateful.......I'm getting one November 17th unless no one else gets it because of Sony or I die first. Its that simple. dont hate me, go stand in line like I did for hours. And if I didn't get it, then obviously the winner would be refunded their money plus extra just for the let down (yes, thats the type of person I am, not one without Morals for those who pass judgement and are filled with hate). i know how to conduct business and they damn near did destroy what I had going on via ebay apart from the PS3. Whether I sell it now or november 17th, it's selling..Don't hate me hate the people who have the extra income who could care less.

for the person who states you hope I get stuck with it. cheers to you. its called you can return it within 30 days.. I could care less about losing seller fee's.. I would actually keep it if Sony didn't have such a poor reputation for their gaming systems breaking the first time around.

[bobber205]

*awards 5 good post points*

:D

[clayj]

<blah, blah, blah>I'm sure all of that means a whole lot to the first person who went to the same videogame store you did and was turned away because there were no more PS3s left to reserve, since you got two of them. And I'm real impressed with the amount of patience you've shown in listing your eBay auction a full month before you'd even have the PS3 in your possession. Couldn't wait until they were actually on store shelves, or even in your possession, hmm?

Like I said way above, I believe in the free market... but I think what people like yourself are doing when you reserve rare items like PS3s or Super Bowl tickets JUST to resell them at a huge profit is pretty low.

Seems to me that what Sony should have done is to sell the first batch of consoles directly to consumers, and allow EVERYONE to bid on the entire pool of consoles (I believe this is called a Dutch auction)... so they'd ALL sell for the maximum possible price, and Sony could have used that to pad THEIR bottom line (not yours) or possibly they could have donated the excess money to a charitable cause.

[nospleen]

I'm sure all of that means a whole lot to the first person who went to the same videogame store you did and was turned away because there were no more PS3s left to reserve, since you got two of them. And I'm real impressed with the amount of patience you've shown in listing your eBay auction a full month before you'd even have the PS3 in your possession. Couldn't wait until they were actually on store shelves, or even in your possession, hmm?

Like I said way above, I believe in the free market... but I think what people like yourself are doing when you reserve rare items like PS3s or Super Bowl tickets JUST to resell them at a huge profit is pretty low.

Seems to me that what Sony should have done is to sell the first batch of consoles directly to consumers, and allow EVERYONE to bid on the entire pool of consoles (I believe this is called a Dutch auction)... so they'd ALL sell for the maximum possible price, and Sony could have used that to pad THEIR bottom line (not yours) or possibly they could have donated the excess money to a charitable cause.

This is not a knock on you ClayJ. I know you used to work for Microsoft and you have an unbelievable house. I am sure you worked your @$$ off to get everything you have. But, you are obviously doing really well. I think if I was doing really well, I might be able to agree with you more. But, being that I am in that middle class, 2 kid, one person working family. Which really means that I make too much to get any perks, but take home just enough to probably net as much as someone who makes 20k less than me. Soooo, any opportunity that I can make an extra 500-1000 bucks, I just can't pass up on it.

Once again, not a knock on you. I generally agree with your posts and find them very informative. I just think each individuals financial situation might help them form their opinion on this topic.

[Agathon]

Some people here have no idea of how markets actually work, and more importantly how they should work, if they are to work properly.

This is not much different than ticket scalping. Ticket scalpers claim that they are providing a service, but it's not one that the public would need if scalpers didn't use contacts to buy up tickets en masse at the normal price. That's why scalping is illegal in most developed countries – the scalper adds no value and significant disvalue to the community.

Sony can't do the usual thing with high demand products (which is simply raise the price to an astronomical level so that they just manage to sell the first production run) because the negative publicity over the high price (and it's already quite high) would discourage prospective buyers at the very same time they are trying to create a positive buzz about the machine.

It would be better if they limited purchases to one per person.

Still, it is hard to stop people from screwing Sony and legitimate customers over without some sort of legal prohibition on reselling until the supply problem is fixed. That's not unprecedented (as is the case with ticket scalping laws), and it's probably in the interests of all legitimate consumers and Sony. If there is profit to be made from the scarcity of Sony products, that profit should go to Sony and not to scalpers who have nothing to contribute to the economy. If Sony can't profit from rationing PS3s for whatever reason, then no-one else should.

No benefit to Sony or video game players in general is provided by people "scalping" PS3s. In cases like this, the most reasonable thing to do is distribute them to those who are willing to pay by lot, and have some sort of law that prohibits reselling for 6 months (if you don't want to be subject to that restriction, then don't buy one).

But as usual, there is no shortage of people willing to defend sociopathic behaviour if it benefits them, no matter what the effect on anyone else.

And don't give me the bull about it being "legal". Cheating on your wife is legal, but you are still a low life scumbag if you do it.

[Agathon]

Seems to me that what Sony should have done is to sell the first batch of consoles directly to consumers, and allow EVERYONE to bid on the entire pool of consoles (I believe this is called a Dutch auction)... so they'd ALL sell for the maximum possible price, and Sony could have used that to pad THEIR bottom line (not yours) or possibly they could have donated the excess money to a charitable cause.

Yeah. That's reasonable, but impractical.

Sony can't annoy resellers, and they can't sell the first ones for an astronomical price, since it would dampen the buzz about the console. People are already put off by the price, and prospective buyers would be even more put off by the high auction prices (the PS3 would be "tainted" in consumers' minds like this).

Laws about scalping simply need to be extended to items like this.

[ReanimationLP]

mmm.... Forbidden PS3. *drools*

[Agathon]

...so who has a person who sells a ps3 on ebay harmed? If you can name one person than i'll be quiet.

The Sony Corporation and its resellers.

Its up to the Sony Corporation and its resellers to fix the price. If the market is working correctly, then they will fix the highest price they can get for the number of units they have.

However, in some cases (like the introduction of a new and popular product with limited supply) they can't do this. Look, it is true that Sony could probably get a much higher price for the first PS3s than what they are currently asking. Ask yourself why they aren't. They aren't stupid, and corporations tend not to forgo the chance of more income when they can get it. The reasons are most probably marketing (they don't want it to become well-known as costing as much as the first units would under such a system).

So they can't raise the price and there will be a short supply. Why should scalpers benefit from this? What value do they contribute? What are they doing that will lead to more PS3s being produced and the supply problem being fixed?

Nothing. Scalpers in this situation contribute nothing to the economy. Giving them money isn't going to make Sony produce PS3s faster or reward Sony for producing a product that a lot of people want. If anyone should profit from this, it is Sony. If they choose not to profit from it, no one should. Hence its a bad thing.

Now be quiet as you promised.

[Krevnik]

WRONG. now that i can post again. Banned for 2 days for calling someone a dumb-----.. amazing. first ebay, now MR. my life is crumbling lmao.......no disrespect intended....

anyways. The policy is YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SHIP THE PRODUCT WITHIN 30 DAYS OF THE AUCTION ENDING. NOV. 17TH IS NOT THAT FAR AWAY. IF YOU ARE DOING A 7 OR 10 AUCTION IT FALLS WITHIN THAT TIME FRAME... so as of now I still don't know whats going on.. All I know is I have to send a copy of my ID along with pictures of everything I was selling. The id has to be in the same pic of the product if I dont have receipts. talk about lack of communication. I still wasn't given a reason.. now to go catch up on the the old posts.. thanks to those who posted on my behalf......

That /was/ the policy. Since you don't know what is going on, lemme fill you in: eBay is NOT following their policy to the 'T' with regards to Wii and PS3 pre-orders. They were sick of the flak they got regarding sellers who had pre-order slips for the 360, and then suddenly failed to delivered like they promised. Since the supply is knowingly constrained, and seeing the potential for future problems, instituted this new policy.

The problem is that you weren't notified. Why? Well, it could be they don't care, or it could be they are as busy as hell just trying to sort this mess out to keep everyone in the loop. Knowing eBay, it is probably both. Granted, eBay is possibly covered by the fact that they are not required to notify people about policy changes. Go figure.

Seriously, you got caught up in bad timing. Nothing you can do to really fix it yourself, so just be patient. It isn't like the systems posted on the 17th are gonna be going for too much less (and possibly more).

[SpankyPenzaanz]

Shouldn't the blame be equally cast to the morons who pay double or more of the price of said product. As to ebay they are covering their asses from what happened last year with the x360. As to the OP complaint did you not read the email they sent you before being banned.

[calculus]

Isn't the real issue simply that the OP cannot guarantee that he will even have this item to sell?

[aquajet]

I changed the ebay post according to what their rules stated (which they emailed me). If my ps3 auction was changed to a 10 day auction (which it was) it wouldn't have ended until around the October 20th.. November 17th is not 30 days later.. so no I changed it so it fell within 30 days and would ship within 30days.

Well, that is an interesting little loophole you've found.

A more prudent thing to do would have been to think about the reasons why ebay decided to take the initial action that they did, and maybe contact ebay to ask for clarification. Instead, you decided to rationalize by walking a razor thin line which one could argue violates the spirit of the rule. I suspect this is how ebay views the situation, and as such, they've shut you out in order to prevent any potential snafu as the release time draws nearer. You're cutting it awfully close, and should the deal bust, not only have you disappointed your buyer, but you've also deprived ebay of their cut in the deal.

[calculus]

Supposing the auction was allowed to go ahead and the PS3 did not materialise for some reason. Should the OP not then be forced to buy one (at whatever the cost) and then sell it at the price agreed? Even if he made a loss. Is this not how capitalism and risk is supposed to work?

[evilgEEk]

Some people here have no idea of how markets actually work, and more importantly how they should work, if they are to work properly. ...
With the points you make in your post, how is selling a limited supply PS3 any different than playing the stock market or investing in real estate?

Say I buy an investment property in a brand new, highly desireable neighborhood for $400,000 with the plan to sell it within a six month period. After six months, due to high demand for this neighborhood, I could realistically sell this house for $500,000.

Granted I'm talking about a six month period, but I'm also talking about making a $100,000 profit versus a few hundred bucks for the PS3, so it's all relative.

My point being, how is this any different than reselling a PS3?

[bobber205]

Supposing the auction was allowed to go ahead and the PS3 did not materialise for some reason. Should the OP not then be forced to buy one (at whatever the cost) and then sell it at the price agreed? Even if he made a loss. Is this not how capitalism and risk is supposed to work?

That would be the case unless he had a disclaimer in his auction.

[SamIchi]

That would be the case unless he had a disclaimer in his auction.

Yup, that would be the smart thing to do. Or just take the negative feedback rating.

[Haoshiro]

Like I said way above, I believe in the free market... but I think what people like yourself are doing when you reserve rare items like PS3s or Super Bowl tickets JUST to resell them at a huge profit is pretty low.

clayj:

This is not a rare item, sure it may not have large quantities at launch, but we all know Sony will flood the market with these things, "rare" just does not seem applicable to the PS3, especially in comparison to a limited-seat once-a-year event like the Super Bowl.

I'm surprised you'd even make such an obviously bad comparison. The first batch of a product are often limited, that doesn't make the product rare... unless you think the company is going to go under and suddenly make that first batch the ONLY batch... but in this case their will be millions and millions of PS3s, it's so far from rare its silly.

[clayj]

clayj:

This is not a rare item, sure it may not have large quantities at launch, but we all know Sony will flood the market with these things, "rare" just does not seem applicable to the PS3, especially in comparison to a limited-seat once-a-year event like the Super Bowl.

I'm surprised you'd even make such an obviously bad comparison. The first batch of a product are often limited, that doesn't make the product rare... unless you think the company is going to go under and suddenly make that first batch the ONLY batch... but in this case their will be millions and millions of PS3s, it's so far from rare its silly.I guess we have different notions of what "rare" means. (Aside from how it refers to a steak.) To me, "rare" means "you can't just walk into a store and buy one". So, Xbox 360s were rare at launch time, as Wiis and PS3s will also be rare... at first, anyway. Later on, they will become "common".

Either way, the comparison to ticket scalpers is directly on point. These are people who are buying a product that they have absolutely NO INTENTION of using, just because they know it's rare and that they can probably flip it for a profit. It would serve them absolutely right if no one bought their extra PS3s and they were stuck with them.

With the points you make in your post, how is selling a limited supply PS3 any different than playing the stock market or investing in real estate?

Say I buy an investment property in a brand new, highly desireable neighborhood for $400,000 with the plan to sell it within a six month period. After six months, due to high demand for this neighborhood, I could realistically sell this house for $500,000.

Granted I'm talking about a six month period, but I'm also talking about making a $100,000 profit versus a few hundred bucks for the PS3, so it's all relative.

My point being, how is this any different than reselling a PS3?It's completely different. Stocks can be bought and sold within a few milliseconds, and although the supply of stock for a given company is usually fixed, stocks aren't a rare commodity like consumer goods. The same is essentially true for land... not to mention, the required investment for a really good piece of land is high enough to discourage random scalping attempts.

[evilgEEk]

not to mention, the required investment for a really good piece of land is high enough to discourage random scalping attempts.
The high price for the PS3 is enough to discourage me from attempting to obtain one for resell. It's all relative, my friend. ;)

[clayj]

The high price for the PS3 is enough to discourage me from attempting to obtain one for resell. It's all relative, my friend. ;)Of course it's all relative... but there's a couple of orders of magnitude (and then some) between a $600 PS3 and a $100,000 plot of land.

[evilgEEk]

Of course it's all relative... but there's a couple of orders of magnitude (and then some) between a $600 PS3 and a $100,000 plot of land.
I think we're veering off course here, my point is that the idea behind the investment is the same.

DEXTERITY purchased a PS3 in hopes of turning a profit, in doing so he denied a wanting customer of his/her reservation. When I buy a house as an investment, with no intent to occupy the home, I'm denying someone else the opportunity to buy this house as their primary residence.

Same crap, different pile.

[lamemodem]

When I buy a house as an investment, with no intent to occupy the home, I'm denying someone else the opportunity to buy this house as their primary residence.

Same crap, different pile.

Not really. There are al kinds of houses on the market in all kinds of neighborhoods. There's only one PS3 and not everyone who wants one can get one. If you want a house, you can go out and buy one. Maybe not the one you want, maybe not the one you've bought and jacked the price up on, but there's a big marketplace.

There's also the issue of investing and the issue of being a jerk. Just because you can buy something cheap and turn around and jack people on it doesn't mean you should.

[flyfish29]

I've been annoyed at people buying extra and putting them on eBay before as well, but this still hardly seems right.

The only way I could see Sony being able to pull this off legally is if they told eBay pre-orders were not garaunteed, and that it's possible less PS3s will actually make it to the retailers... then eBay could say you are selling something you don't have.

Yeah, I have no problem with people making money- but really. I have seen the local guys at the local game store walk out of their store with several X-boxes back when you couldn't get them. I know they were buying all of them and putting them on ebay. I have a problem with that- they should go to real customers of the store- that retail store is not a distributor to other "retailers" but to end users. No, it isn't illegeal...but not exactly an "honest" way to make a living. (By honest I dont' mean it literally) Go out and get a job and stop "creating" even more middle men. That last thing this world needs is more middle men handling things- Just my opinion

[evilgEEk]

Not really. There are al kinds of houses on the market in all kinds of neighborhoods. There's only one PS3 and not everyone who wants one can get one. If you want a house, you can go out and buy one. Maybe not the one you want, maybe not the one you've bought and jacked the price up on, but there's a big marketplace.
Please read my previous posts and you'll see I set up a scenario that led up to my last comment.

If you want a gaming console, you can go out and buy one. Maybe not the one you want, maybe not the one someone has bought and jacked the price up on, but there's a big marketplace.

[yadmonkey]

While I support a free market and wouldn't support action to prevent this sort of opportunistic transaction, I also think it's pretty slimy. Basically, it guarantees that the overwhelming majority of those lucky enough to get launch consoles will be the wealthy and that many middle class gamers will be denied consoles on the first go-round.

But who gives a crap about the middle class, right? Not the middle class. It will mostly be middle-classers taking advantage of the situation to get a few extra scraps from the wealthy.

[Agathon]

With the points you make in your post, how is selling a limited supply PS3 any different than playing the stock market or investing in real estate?

Say I buy an investment property in a brand new, highly desireable neighborhood for $400,000 with the plan to sell it within a six month period. After six months, due to high demand for this neighborhood, I could realistically sell this house for $500,000.

Granted I'm talking about a six month period, but I'm also talking about making a $100,000 profit versus a few hundred bucks for the PS3, so it's all relative.

My point being, how is this any different than reselling a PS3?

Why didn't you read the post?

This situation is different. Go read my post again. In your case, the seller is not necessarily holding the price lower than the market will bear.

[Agathon]

I think we're veering off course here, my point is that the idea behind the investment is the same.

DEXTERITY purchased a PS3 in hopes of turning a profit, in doing so he denied a wanting customer of his/her reservation. When I buy a house as an investment, with no intent to occupy the home, I'm denying someone else the opportunity to buy this house as their primary residence.

Same crap, different pile.

This is a clueless comment.

In this situation the price is not being held artificially low by the supplier. Please think more carefully before posting such obvious irrelevancies.

[DEXTERITY]

Well, that is an interesting little loophole you've found.

A more prudent thing to do would have been to think about the reasons why ebay decided to take the initial action that they did, and maybe contact ebay to ask for clarification. Instead, you decided to rationalize by walking a razor thin line which one could argue violates the spirit of the rule. I suspect this is how ebay views the situation, and as such, they've shut you out in order to prevent any potential snafu as the release time draws nearer. You're cutting it awfully close, and should the deal bust, not only have you disappointed your buyer, but you've also deprived ebay of their cut in the deal.


I have emailed them numerous times. I emailed them when the first one was taken down. I emailed them after I was suspended. I appealed. And I emailed them when they sent me an email asking for proof of my identity and other things I mentioned in a previous post. They don't respond. They don't have a number you can call and live support doesn't assist in those types of matters.

If they are going to change the policy they shouldn't have sent an email telling me how to correct the problem then just suspend my act. The very least they could do is respond by now (it has been around 5 days) and tell me the reason for everything that happened. They didn't even do that much when asking me to send a copy of my license and a recent bank, credit card or utility statement/bill. I guess in due time it will all sort its self out.

And I did have a disclaimer that said if for some reason I wasn't able to secure a ps3 due to a problem with Sony or the store it was reservered from, I would refund the money. anyways..this was fun, wasn't it.

They could demonstrate at least that much professionalism.

[evilgEEk]

In this situation the price is not being held artificially low by the supplier. Please think more carefully before posting such obvious irrelevancies.
The comment you quoted had nothing to do with the points you were trying to make. Please think more carefully before posting such obvious irrelevancies. :rolleyes:

Now, in regards to your comments, that I in fact did read, regarding how no one but Sony should profit from their products, I completely disagree.

I also disagree with you in regards to you saying those selling these products are just scum and are offering nothing. This is just not true. I guarantee you there are buyers out there that are purposely waiting for these units to hit ebay, because they didn't want to bother camping out at their local video game shop just so they can get their child a PS3 for Christmas. So how are the ebay sellers not providing them a service? And if you think these people don't exist, then you're naive.

[suneohair]

Well I decided to test the waters with a Wii. This is what eBay sent me.


**PLEASE READ THIS IMPORTANT EMAIL REGARDING YOUR LISTING(S)**

We would like to let you know that we removed your listing(s):


160041870846 Nintendo Wii Pre-Order + extra Wii Remote and Nunchuk



We have credited any associated fees to your account.

Due to the high demand and limited supply of this item we are taking stronger measures to protect both buyers and sellers in the eBay community. Currently, eBay is not permitting "Pre-Sale" of this item, and sellers who list it on eBay must have physical possession of the products at time of listing.

It is necessary that you provide information by fax that confirms your identity and allows us to review your current business practices. You will need to send all of the following:

1. A copy of the front and back of your driver's license or other government issued ID.

2. A copy of a recent credit card statement or utility bill clearly showing your billing address as proof of your registration information. Please remove any account numbers before sending.

3. Copies of manufacturer invoices or any other documentation showing purchase or possession of items listed for sale prior to your account suspension. This includes purchase records and related documentation from suppliers and/or other third parties.

4. Written acknowledgement that you have read and that you understand the eBay User Agreement. A link to the User Agreement can be found at the bottom of most eBay pages.

5. Written acknowledgement that you have read and understand eBay's categorization policy.

*** Important ***
All contact information listed on the documents that you submit with your appeal must be consistent with the contact information listed on your registered eBay account. If any differences exist, you must provide an explanation for these discrepancies, as well as documentation that confirms your explanation.

If your eBay contact information is your work address, please send official documentation to validate this.

Please fax the information requested above to:

eBay, Attention: PA Appeals
Fax number: 1-888-260-6355

Relisting this item prior to providing the documentation mentioned above may result in the suspension of your eBay account. Please allow 12-24 hours after faxing in your information for a response.

For your security, any documents submitted will be destroyed after your appeal has been reviewed.

Do not respond to this email, as your reply will not be received.

We appreciate your patience in this matter.

Respectfully,
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
eBay Inc

So there you have it. It would appear that eBay isn't taking these auctions at all. I was even asking in insane price for mine.

Unless you do buy it now and someone buys it quick, kiss your auction goodbye.

[evilgEEk]

I don't blame ebay for taking these auctions down, they're just trying to protect folks by not making the assumption that the seller will be able to secure the console.

This might actually help to control prices too, since everyone will have to list them at the same time. Folks that go to ebay for their purchase will have more auctions to choose from, might help with a little competition.

Or everyone will just put a maximum bid of $2000 and go with it. ;)

[Agathon]

The comment you quoted had nothing to do with the points you were trying to make. Please think more carefully before posting such obvious irrelevancies. :rolleyes:

Like what? Come on...

Now, in regards to your comments, that I in fact did read, regarding how no one but Sony should profit from their products, I completely disagree.

I couldn't care less if you disagree. It's patently obvious that you have little idea of what you are talking about. Am I supposed to be afraid of you, because you call yourself Evilgeek?

I also disagree with you in regards to you saying those selling these products are just scum and are offering nothing. This is just not true. I guarantee you there are buyers out there that are purposely waiting for these units to hit ebay, because they didn't want to bother camping out at their local video game shop just so they can get their child a PS3 for Christmas. So how are the ebay sellers not providing them a service? And if you think these people don't exist, then you're naive.

They are not doing the market any good. The fact that some people will pay through eBay will not encourage Sony to make more PS3s, and that's the incentive that matters. Markets exist to make sure that people produce what they and other people want. In this case, unscrupulous people are simply taking advantage of Sony's unwillingness to price the first batch of PS3s at a price the market will initially bear. People scalping PS3s is not going to make Sony produce them any faster, it's just an irritating form of queue jumping which disadvantages other legitimate consumers (some people have no objections to queue jumping, but they are the sort of people who weren't well brought up).

Nothing that eBay sellers are doing is encouraging Sony to make more PS3s to bring the price down (they will do this themselves anyway). They are just parasites. They are no better than scalpers. Just as there are laws against scalping, there should be laws against this.

[faustfire]

What a bunch of f**king crybabies! For every article of clothing your wear and every gadget you buy someone gets screwed along the line. It called capitalism. Seriously folks, its a video game, get off the couch and get a real hobbie or maybe a girlfriend. Serious geeks.:p

P.S. I have 13 p3s preordered and will sell every one on ebay, I don't even want one for myself, I have a life. Man, this is going to be better than the $5500 I made on the xbox 360. Yeeeehaaaaw!:)

[evilgEEk]

Am I supposed to be afraid of you, because you call yourself Evilgeek?
Ha ha ha! :D

It's called a discussion. I haven't attacked you once, I've simply defended my views.

Here's a little bit of advice that I'm fairly certain you'll take offense to, since you seem to take offense to everything else. Stop being so angry, life is much more enjoyable when you're able to laugh and have fun. When someone doesn't agree with you, simply accept that fact. There's no need to take such a defensive posture.

I'm done with you now.

:D

[Agathon]

Ha ha ha! :D

It's called a discussion. I haven't attacked you once, I've simply defended my views.

In a dishonest fashion, by claiming that you had read and understood my post when you hadn't done at least one of those things. You can't claim that two cases are equivalent when they are not, especially not without explaining why you believe this.

It's an old rhetorician's trick, but easily spotted.

Here's a little bit of advice that I'm fairly certain you'll take offense to, since you seem to take offense to everything else. Stop being so angry, life is much more enjoyable when you're able to laugh and have fun. When someone doesn't agree with you, simply accept that fact. There's no need to take such a defensive posture.

Here's a piece of advice for you. Stop talking about things you know little or nothing about, and stop trying to pretend that you have responded adequately in the "discussion" when you did not.

I can't say that I am hopping mad about that, after all it is the internet, but it's worth calling when seen.

[Agathon]

What a bunch of f**king crybabies! For every article of clothing your wear and every gadget you buy someone gets screwed along the line. It called capitalism.

Actually it's not. Capitalism is full of rules on what may or may not be traded, and how and when it may be traded. These rules exist in order to promote efficient exchanges.

In cases like this, where there are queues, there is a sound economic reason on the part of the supplier for not wanting to charge full price. Your actions, like those of ticket scalpers are harming those whose items you are selling, and making it worse for the rest of us (especially the original producer).

The pursuit of selfishness in capitalist economies is tolerated because it has good consequences for everyone else (the old "Invisible Hand"), not because it has good consequences for any particular individual.

What you are doing is screwing Sony over, and other consumers at the same time. Perhaps you don't care about anyone else. That's all fine and good, but don't defend your actions as being in the spirit of capitalism when they are no such thing.

[ascender]

This situation is even more ironic when you consider that at the moment, the PS3's launch lineup looks pretty uninspiring. Add that to the high RRP cost of the console & I can't believe some people are willing to pay over the odds to get one.

Fact is this stuff has always gone on at console launches. But the argument about buy low, sell high doesn't really work does it when you consider its people buying at the RRP and then selling for way over it? But that's just the world we live in unfortunately. People shouldn't pay over the odds for them, then there's not a problem. Its not like ticket touts selling tix for a one-off gig. There will be loads more PS3s soon, probably cheaper and certainly with some games worth playing. Go and buy a Wii or a 360 instead and save yourself the cash.

As for eBay, I was suspended from there once for ignoring their warnings about a few listings I had up. The problem is that they don't actually tell you what's wrong with your listing, they just say it is because of one of these 32 odd reasons. So I mailed them, got nothing back, took out what I thought was wrong and I then got banned. My main problem with eBay is that everything is very much weighted in their favour and they're not really interested in helping out the honest eBayer which is frustrating when you see some of the clearly fake goods and scams on there.

Anyway, rant over. Just go and buy a 360, there's enough games out for it now to last you months until the PS3 is worth picking up.

[faustfire]

Actually it's not. Capitalism is full of rules on what may or may not be traded, and how and when it may be traded. These rules exist in order to promote efficient exchanges.

In cases like this, where there are queues, there is a sound economic reason on the part of the supplier for not wanting to charge full price. Your actions, like those of ticket scalpers are harming those whose items you are selling, and making it worse for the rest of us (especially the original producer).

The pursuit of selfishness in capitalist economies is tolerated because it has good consequences for everyone else (the old "Invisible Hand"), not because it has good consequences for any particular individual.

What you are doing is screwing Sony over, and other consumers at the same time. Perhaps you don't care about anyone else. That's all fine and good, but don't defend your actions as being in the spirit of capitalism when they are no such thing.

It's the law of supply and demand, I have the supply and people will pay what I demand.

Honestly, I find it incredible that anyone who gets ahold of a PS3 would not sell it for a profit. There will be stacks of them at the stores a month after xmas, by waiting a few months you can easily make a profit of 6 to 8 hundred dollars. (probably more)

[Agathon]

It's the law of supply and demand, I have the supply and people will pay what I demand.

Honestly, I find it incredible that anyone who gets ahold of a PS3 would not sell it for a profit. There will be stacks of them at the stores a month after xmas, by waiting a few months you can easily make a profit of 6 to 8 hundred dollars. (probably more)

Really, it isn't.

This is a special case. The vendor is not selling the product at a price the market will bear in the short term.

Why aren't they doing that? Because it would harm them to sell it for more in the long term.

This is exactly what happens with sports teams and scalping. Sports teams deliberately underprice tickets (I know that sounds hard to believe, but they do) in order to make sure that all games sell out. It's better for them in the long run to have full stadiums because it means that more people will keep coming back (full stadiums add value to the customers' experience).

Similarly, Sony is selling the PS3 below the price that the market will bear because they don't want it to get the reputation of being more expensive than it is. That would hurt long term sales. Sony could probably sell the first batch of PS3s for $1200 a piece. But that would mean that the PS3 would be pegged in consumers' minds as "the $1200 console", and that would harm future sales. Sony is prepared to forgo short term profit in order to realize a long term gain. Sony is deliberately discounting PS3s to early adopters for this reason.

News reports of PS3s being mass sold at twice the price on eBay would be similarly bad for Sony, although perhaps not quite as bad as if they had done it themselves. The people who are eBaying PS3s for astronomical prices are effectively stealing from Sony. That's not capitalism. Capitalism is supposed to be about win-win transactions. Now the transaction from Sony to the scalper is win-win for them, and the transaction from the scalper to the boob who pays $1200 is a win-win for them, but both transactions combined are a loss for Sony.

Scalping is always going to be a problem when goods are sold below market price in order to realize some gain that selling at market price will not yield. Scalpers (who sell at market price) effectively harm the supplier by denying or lessening the gain that the supplier hopes to make.

That's why scalping is bad. It harms the producer, and it harms the consumer as well in many cases. Why is it bad to harm the producer? Because the whole point of buying stuff from a producer is to encourage them to make more valuable things.

In general scalpers are thieves and scumbags.

[Lebowski]

man, im really sorry to hear that your "get MY ps3 for free scheme" didnt work out. what a shame.


now, stop driving up costs, reducing stock and making it generally more difficult for the willing PAYING - REAL customers that want one for US, not to sell (whore) around the interweb so you can sit on your pimple covered ass and get yours for free.

its not a legality issue, its a moral issue. getting a great deal on something and turning a profit is one thing, but intentionally going into something with the only hopes of duping people into spending 2-4 times its worth is just not cool. karma is a b*tch. life is too short.

this is exactly why i REFUSE to buy scalper tickets to shows and always make a point to voice my opinion to anyone offering my tickets for 5 times what the face value of them is when i am on my way into a venue.

now, go outside, get some sun, maybe talk to a REAL person once and awhile, stop playing WOW and get a damn job. freeloading jaggass.

[evilgEEk]

In general scalpers are thieves and scumbags.
Obviously we disagree, so there's no point in continuing the discussion, but I do have a question for you. Please don't get all defensive, because it's just a simple question powered by my own curiosity. ;)

Why do you feel so strongly about this? Have you been burned by scalpers in the past, or do you feel it's just morally wrong?

[Lebowski]

Why do you feel so strongly about this? Have you been burned by scalpers in the past, or do you feel it's just morally wrong?


not directed toward me, but ill say my peace.....


if i wanted to see, say, Radiohead when they came to the US, i should have been able to pick up tickets at a reasonable price as long as i went through the legal channels and did so in a timely fashion. I tried to buy tix within minutes of them going on sale. The problem is, that ticket brokers and scalpers snatched them all up in no time, so i was left with the decision to pay a grand for a ticket, or not go. I am a HUGE radiohead fan, and have never had the chance to see them live, however, i simply cannot afford 1k PER TICKET (as i would likely need 2) as well as my travel costs to get to the closest city they were performing in. So, in essence, the 100 dollar ticket from ticketmaster WOULD have allowed me to make it to their show, but 1-2k PLUS travel is just out of reach for me and most of the REAL fans. I can go to certain concerts and sing the word to every song played, but i am always in the back row, because some money hungry broker or scalper took my opportunity of seeing a band i am a TRUE FAN OF away from me.

[Agathon]

Obviously we disagree, so there's no point in continuing the discussion, but I do have a question for you. Please don't get all defensive, because it's just a simple question powered by my own curiosity. ;)

Why do you feel so strongly about this? Have you been burned by scalpers in the past, or do you feel it's just morally wrong?

No. Scalping is illegal where I live.

It bothers me a bit that people are trying to defend this as capitalism, when it clearly isn't, or shouldn't be permitted if you believe in capitalism (I don't myself, but when done properly it can be useful). Too many people have this idea that capitalism is about screwing other people. It's not. The whole point of capitalism is to allow mutually beneficial exchanges. When the free market stops doing that, it is usually time for regulation.

I guess if I am annoyed about anything, it's that people should have learned this sort of stuff in high school. It's a disgrace that they haven't.

That's not to say that scalping or price gouging is always bad. For example, you can justify price gouging in cases where the increased prices will lead to an increased supply (like that time in Montreal where there was an ice storm and people were charging a fortune for generators. The high prices made it economic for people far away to sell generators they didn't want).

It's not a surprise that most people think scalping is wrong. In general there is a good reason for this belief, which is roughly what I said in my previous post. People have various justifications for this belief, some of which are better than others, but the belief itself is reasonably sound.

[Agathon]

not directed toward me, but ill say my peace.....


if i wanted to see, say, Radiohead when they came to the US, i should have been able to pick up tickets at a reasonable price as long as i went through the legal channels and did so in a timely fashion. I tried to buy tix within minutes of them going on sale. The problem is, that ticket brokers and scalpers snatched them all up in no time, so i was left with the decision to pay a grand for a ticket, or not go. I am a HUGE radiohead fan, and have never had the chance to see them live, however, i simply cannot afford 1k PER TICKET (as i would likely need 2) as well as my travel costs to get to the closest city they were performing in. So, in essence, the 100 dollar ticket from ticketmaster WOULD have allowed me to make it to their show, but 1-2k PLUS travel is just out of reach for me and most of the REAL fans. I can go to certain concerts and sing the word to every song played, but i am always in the back row, because some money hungry broker or scalper took my opportunity of seeing a band i am a TRUE FAN OF away from me.

In this case, rock groups often keep ticket prices low, because they want to give all their fans a chance to see them, not just the rich ones.

Basically, Radiohead is giving everyone a discount in order that they enjoy playing their shows more. By taking advantage of this, scalpers are effectively stealing from Radiohead, since Radiohead provided the discount and aren't getting what they wanted from the exchange.

[evilgEEk]

I understand what you're saying (since I did read your posts :p;) ), but I just don't agree.

Yes, Sony is keeping the price of the PS3 down and taking a hit on each unit sold, and I agree with your reasoning as to why Sony is doing this. But I disagree that selling a PS3 for a personal profit is essentially stealing from Sony.

There is just no way Sony could put the first batch of PS3's on the shelf, charge $1200 and actually sell them. They would sell a few, but the average customers (parents, middle-class, etc...) are already having a hard time justifying the $5-600 cost of the unit, so a higher cost would just completely alienate those potential customers before the units even hit the shelves. So someone taking a unit and selling it on ebay isn't stealing from Sony because Sony would have never been able to charge that much for the unit to begin with. The seller is taking advantage of Sony's supply issue and making money off of that, but the money that he makes would have never gone to Sony anyway.

Should he be doing it? Well, that's a completely different issue.

The only victim is the buyer, or more specifically those that camped outside their local game shops and were denied pre-orders because someone else bought them all up. Those are the real victims in this scenario. The schmucks that pay big bucks for the units on ebay, they're just stupid. ;)

This happens with every new console release, and I don't see any evidence of this disrupting the market in any way. One could even argue that the press surrounding consoles selling for such high amounts on ebay would be a positive thing for the company. Their product is so desireable that some folks are willing to pay twice as much for one.

I see this as simply a morality issue. But the fact that it's a game console, and not a necessity (fuel, generators, food, etc...), I don't think the morality issue is as important.

[it5five]

Maybe all of these people complaining are finally realizing that capitalism doesn't work?

[ascender]

I guess a lot of people have a problem with it because it is just a morality, common decency thing. The PS3 is expensive enough and people ordering extra ones solely to sell them on for a profit are just making it more difficult for certain people to a) get one at pre-order and b) actually be able to afford one.

[Krevnik]

It's the law of supply and demand, I have the supply and people will pay what I demand.

Arrogant, much?

Supply and demand are about producer supply, and /consumer/ demand. The moment you state something like you just did, you talk about command economies, not capitalism.

This is a case of a weird blend of grey market sales and arbitage. The only difference is that instead of taking advantage of an imbalance between two markets, only one market is needed to find the imbalance. By buying the supply you can, you help exaggerate this imbalance. While possibly good for you, it is no doubt not really benefitting anyone else.

The thing is, capitalism relies on the supplier and the consumer being able to 'haggle'. Middle-men reduce that ability to haggle, and make it harder for true supply/demand, free market, and capitalism to actually exist in the ideal sense. You aren't a great defender of capitalism, you are a middle-man. Middle-men get very little respect, especially when they forcibly inject themselves into a market that gets along just fine without them (see: Enron, but granted they had other issues too).

[mkaake]

any chance we can just let this thread die? it's been debated to death, and neither side of the issue is going to budge/change their minds, so it's really a waste of anger/bandwidth...

[Antares]

If you put up a PS3, on eBay, and set a reserve price to the seller's cost, how is that an issue? If the PS3 sells only at the reserve price, fine, that's what you would pay at a store; e.g. no profit (if you set the reserve slightly higher to match eBay's fees). If it sells for more than the reserve, good. That equals profit. Like people said or alluded to, the market is determining the price, not the seller. This cannot be considered, in any way, scalping. Instead, it is simply an auction like any other.

In no way can this be considered unethical, harmful to consumers or Sony, price gouging or wrong. In fact, this is actually a good thing for both consumers and the market. The PS3 is obviously going to sell out regardless of whether or not speculators put them up on eBay. That means a lot of people will not even have the chance to own PS3 at launch (some of us work, afterall, and cannot take off just to stand in line at a store). By having PS3's available on eBay or any other site, it allows everyone in the world to have an equal opportunity to own a PS3. If someone wants a PS3, they will have a 100% chance of getting one via eBay. If more than one person wants one, that demand will drive up the price until people no longer want a PS3. The person who gets the PS3 will be the one who wants it the most. That is true equality and equal opportunity in action.

[lamemodem]

In general scalpers are thieves and scumbags.
Obviously we disagree, so there's no point in continuing the discussion ...

You gotta love it when someone actually defends scalpers.

[savar]

Seems to me that what Sony should have done is to sell the first batch of consoles directly to consumers, and allow EVERYONE to bid on the entire pool of consoles (I believe this is called a Dutch auction)... so they'd ALL sell for the maximum possible price, and Sony could have used that to pad THEIR bottom line (not yours) or possibly they could have donated the excess money to a charitable cause.

That's a good answer for an economist, but in the real world Sony is not allowed to do that, for the simple reason that they also control the supply of PS3s. It doesn't matter *why* PS3 supply is short (i.e. intentional or not), it would be against the law for Sony to use the short supply to boost profits. (In the US at least.. I have no idea what anti-trust looks like in other countries.)

[LukeW]

Put it simply, by buying one (or more) PS3 with the intention to sell it at a higher price, you are robbing the chance for some lower down in the queue to buy one at the price you did. If a store is getting 40 consoles in, and someone was 41st, they will not get a console because someone wanted an extra buck. They did nothing wrong, followed the same procedure to pre-order that everyone else did, but where maybe a few seconds later.
The person who is going to pay double on eBay for a PS3 this christmas is a moron, but the person who thinks they done good by selling it are scum bags, pure and simple.
I have no intention on buying one till the price comes down. Wii all the way for me this holiday season. I dont worry about not getting a PS3 this year but it makes me throw up slightly in my mouth reading how some people on here think this is not only OK but actually something to boast about. Says a lot about us as a people really.
Well done for making some money, but I would personally rather feel like I both worked for and deserved it!

[evilgEEk]

You gotta love it when someone actually defends scalpers.
That was supposed to be funny. ;)

[savar]

Shouldn't the blame be equally cast to the morons who pay double or more of the price of said product.

I'm just gonna say this only once because so many people in this thread keep repeating the same inane comments, such as the one above, and it's really grating:

The value of money is relative. If you made one billion dollars each day at your job, would it be stupid to spend $1200 on a PS3? No. It wouldn't be stupid to spend $100,000 on a PS3. Percentage wise its a lot less than any of us would be spending to buy one at $600.

Well some people make more money than you do...a lot more. I don't care who you are, or how much you make, there is somebody out there who makes a lot more money than you do. If that person has even the slightest utility for a PS3, they will pay quite a bit more money than you to acquire one.

In addition, there's a time-value discount factor...that is to say that people typically prefer present consumption to future consumption, all other things being equal.

The net effect is that if you have lots of money and you want a PS3, there's no reason not to scoop one now 3 or 4 months ahead of everybody else at a significantly higher cost. Personally, I wouldn't do it. I also wouldn't spend money to buy items in an MMORPG...but some people do it. Maybe they're stupid and maybe they're not. It really has to do with their own budget and their own preferences, neither of which I know anything about.

Please people, consider the basic economics of the situation before making pejorative statements like "dood only an idi0t pays $1200 for a PS3". I realize this is the video game forum, but let's keep the discourse higher on fact and reason and lower on shouting our gut feelings at the tops of our lungs.

[savar]

clayj:

This is not a rare item, sure it may not have large quantities at launch, but we all know Sony will flood the market with these things, "rare" just does not seem applicable to the PS3, especially in comparison to a limited-seat once-a-year event like the Super Bowl.

I'm surprised you'd even make such an obviously bad comparison. The first batch of a product are often limited, that doesn't make the product rare... unless you think the company is going to go under and suddenly make that first batch the ONLY batch... but in this case their will be millions and millions of PS3s, it's so far from rare its silly.

Haoshiro, I appreciate your comments, but even you are overlooking one small thing: What difference does it make if the product is rare or not?

I would love to have Picasso's "Night Fishing at Antibbes" to hang on my wall, but alas -- it is extremely scarce (quantity=1), and since I'm not the only one who wants one (many millions of people probably like this painting), the price is unimaginably high. Higher than I can afford even. But I certainly won't hate anybody for owning it, and not willing to sell it to me at the price that I can afford.

ClayJ is saying that its unfair to raise the price on items that are rare...well that's one of the components of price! Anything that suddenly becomes rarer will go up in price if demand holds constant. If demand goes up and supply is constant it will also get more expensive. This is the way the world works.

I know some people have hurt feelings that they can't afford a PS3 until after christmas, but life is not always fair to everybody. The mere fact that you're thinking about dropping $600 on a PS3 indicates to me that life is probably treating you better than 99% of the people out there in the world. And Dexterity is simply a businessman selling a non-critical good to make money for himself. We all have jobs, we all do things to try to make money.

If Dexterity was selling, say.... a cure for cancer.... and only he knew the formula. Then yes, I would hate him for it.

If he had some kind of inside connection that he was working to bilk end customers, then I would hate him. (This is the analogy to ClayJ's scalping example.. I don't know if that's how scalping works, but if it is then that's pretty wrong.)

But a PS3 is a luxury item. Eventually there will be enough for everybody who could possibly want one. We will all be able to walk into a store and just grab one off of the shelf and pay MSRP -- or even less.

I really can't comprehend how people can complain about this situation....

[Free2B]

I think it is pretty absurd that people today think they have some kind of "right" to purchase goods at face value. And that "unscrupulous" people that re-sell things at a higher price are somehow morally reprehensible. We live in a free market economy (basically). If we didn't, our economy would be much smaller today, and individual wealth would not be near where it is today. Part of the free market is the ability to re-sell goods at the market bearing price. The beauty of this system is that people will pay whatever it is worth to them to acquire various goods and services. Sometimes there are going to be inequalities in the market that will eventually correct themselves. The PS3 situation is a perfect example.

So, some ambitious people took it upon themselves to snap up the first few consoles that roll off the production line, and will then re-sell them at higher prices. The people who will pay the $1000+ prices are the ones to blame, if anyone is to be guilty here. But then again, for those people to get the consoles first is worth it to them. So they basically paid some enterprising person for their time and effort to get the console for them. Is that so terrible? Once enough consoles have rolled off the line to satisfy the initial demand, the price will correct itself to the $500-$600 Sony is charging. Eventually, the price will even come down below that as supply has increased and demand has been satisfied. Wow, what an amazing concept. Companies make a product, generate some profit, give people jobs to make new products, pay them wages (market clearing wages, of course), and then people turn around and buy the products they want. And so the cycle goes.

I say have at it. Let freedom ring.

[savar]

And if you think these people don't exist, then you're naive.

No need to prove they exist. The mere fact that the PS3 sells proves they're out there.

[savar]

That's why scalping is bad. It harms the producer, and it harms the consumer as well in many cases. Why is it bad to harm the producer? Because the whole point of buying stuff from a producer is to encourage them to make more valuable things.

Wow, Mr. 21st Century Materialism, in the flesh:

"The whole point of buying stuff from a producer is to encourage them to make more valuable things."

And here I always bought things because I thought I needed or wanted them...in reality it was simply to fund the next round of product development. You've really opened my eyes Mr. O'Reilly.

[faustfire]

not directed toward me, but ill say my peace.....


if i wanted to see, say, Radiohead when they came to the US, i should have been able to pick up tickets at a reasonable price as long as i went through the legal channels and did so in a timely fashion. I tried to buy tix within minutes of them going on sale. The problem is, that ticket brokers and scalpers snatched them all up in no time, so i was left with the decision to pay a grand for a ticket, or not go. I am a HUGE radiohead fan, and have never had the chance to see them live, however, i simply cannot afford 1k PER TICKET (as i would likely need 2) as well as my travel costs to get to the closest city they were performing in. So, in essence, the 100 dollar ticket from ticketmaster WOULD have allowed me to make it to their show, but 1-2k PLUS travel is just out of reach for me and most of the REAL fans. I can go to certain concerts and sing the word to every song played, but i am always in the back row, because some money hungry broker or scalper took my opportunity of seeing a band i am a TRUE FAN OF away from me.

I agree, in this scenario, scalping sucks, it prices out people for a once in a lifetime experience. But this argument does not apply to the PS3 as in the near future, there will be more PS3s than Sony can sell. All I cause by buying all the PS3s I can find and reselling them now is that someone may have to wait an extra month or so to purchase one. And in my opinion, thats life. I made the effort to be there before others to purchase them, so that gives me the right to do what I will with them.

[Agathon]

I understand what you're saying (since I did read your posts :p;) ), but I just don't agree.

Yes, Sony is keeping the price of the PS3 down and taking a hit on each unit sold, and I agree with your reasoning as to why Sony is doing this. But I disagree that selling a PS3 for a personal profit is essentially stealing from Sony.

There is just no way Sony could put the first batch of PS3's on the shelf, charge $1200 and actually sell them. They would sell a few, but the average customers (parents, middle-class, etc...) are already having a hard time justifying the $5-600 cost of the unit, so a higher cost would just completely alienate those potential customers before the units even hit the shelves. So someone taking a unit and selling it on ebay isn't stealing from Sony because Sony would have never been able to charge that much for the unit to begin with. The seller is taking advantage of Sony's supply issue and making money off of that, but the money that he makes would have never gone to Sony anyway.

Should he be doing it? Well, that's a completely different issue.

The only victim is the buyer, or more specifically those that camped outside their local game shops and were denied pre-orders because someone else bought them all up. Those are the real victims in this scenario. The schmucks that pay big bucks for the units on ebay, they're just stupid. ;)

This happens with every new console release, and I don't see any evidence of this disrupting the market in any way. One could even argue that the press surrounding consoles selling for such high amounts on ebay would be a positive thing for the company. Their product is so desireable that some folks are willing to pay twice as much for one.

I see this as simply a morality issue. But the fact that it's a game console, and not a necessity (fuel, generators, food, etc...), I don't think the morality issue is as important.

That's not my argument. Sony is pricing the PS3 lower than the market will bear because they want to benefit from a particular good that is actualized by that price. That's why they are giving a discount.

What you do when you buy an intro PS3 at that price benefits Sony in the long run, even when they aren't making as much money as they could on that one sale. Sony doesn't want the PS3 launch to be accompanied by tales of how expensive the thing is, or how you can only really get one on eBay. Both of those things harm Sony.

If you buy one off of eBay or sell one, that deprives Sony of the good that they sought to acquire by discounting the PS3.

It really is that simple.

[Agathon]

I agree, in this scenario, scalping sucks, it prices out people for a once in a lifetime experience. But this argument does not apply to the PS3 as in the near future, there will be more PS3s than Sony can sell. All I cause by buying all the PS3s I can find and reselling them now is that someone may have to wait an extra month or so to purchase one. And in my opinion, thats life. I made the effort to be there before others to purchase them, so that gives me the right to do what I will with them.

It's the same scenario.

In both cases the seller is discounting a good because they want to receive some other good that attends upon their product being sold at a lower price. Scalping in both cases deprives the seller of that good, and in turn it deprives consumers of even cheaper PS3s down the line because the initial scalping puts consumers off buying them.

[Agathon]

Wow, Mr. 21st Century Materialism, in the flesh:

"The whole point of buying stuff from a producer is to encourage them to make more valuable things."

And here I always bought things because I thought I needed or wanted them...in reality it was simply to fund the next round of product development. You've really opened my eyes Mr. O'Reilly.

If the whole point is you needing them or wanting them, then why not just steal them? The point of paying for them is to encourage (a) the supplier to make useful things, and (b) other potential suppliers to get in the market if it is possible to sell the thing at a lower cost.

This is first year economics. What's the problem?

[Agathon]

I think it is pretty absurd that people today think they have some kind of "right" to purchase goods at face value. And that "unscrupulous" people that re-sell things at a higher price are somehow morally reprehensible. We live in a free market economy (basically). If we didn't, our economy would be much smaller today, and individual wealth would not be near where it is today. Part of the free market is the ability to re-sell goods at the market bearing price. The beauty of this system is that people will pay whatever it is worth to them to acquire various goods and services. Sometimes there are going to be inequalities in the market that will eventually correct themselves. The PS3 situation is a perfect example.

So, some ambitious people took it upon themselves to snap up the first few consoles that roll off the production line, and will then re-sell them at higher prices. The people who will pay the $1000+ prices are the ones to blame, if anyone is to be guilty here. But then again, for those people to get the consoles first is worth it to them. So they basically paid some enterprising person for their time and effort to get the console for them. Is that so terrible? Once enough consoles have rolled off the line to satisfy the initial demand, the price will correct itself to the $500-$600 Sony is charging. Eventually, the price will even come down below that as supply has increased and demand has been satisfied. Wow, what an amazing concept. Companies make a product, generate some profit, give people jobs to make new products, pay them wages (market clearing wages, of course), and then people turn around and buy the products they want. And so the cycle goes.

I say have at it. Let freedom ring.

You are mistaken. This is not capitalism. This is a failure of the market.

Capitalism exists to promote win-win transactions. If I give Sony $600 for a PS3, then I wanted the PS3 more and they wanted the money more. Both of us end up better off without anyone else being made worse off. This is an increase in effciency (acc. to the economic definition of it).

The basic idea is that if you allow people to swap goods freely, then you will end up with a more efficient situation than otherwise. In general it works for about 2/3 of the things we need (which is why we pay taxes to fund the other 1/3).

However, there can be cases where swaps aren't win-win. For example, used car sellers may know more about a car than the buyer and sell him a lemon. This is not an efficient situation, since one person has been made worse off. That's why all developed capitalist economies have laws against fraud and other consumer protection laws. So it is not a case of you are "free to do as you like". Capitalism can't work properly if people rip each other off all the time.

In general in a capitalist economy, the price of each good should balance supply and demand. No seller should be left with unsold stock. If someone is left with unsold stock, that means that society is not producing what we need and want - it is an inefficient waste of production. The competitive market is supposed to stop this from happening by setting prices. High prices relative to the cost of production compel other sellers to enter the market and lower the price. At some point it becomes uneconomical for new sellers to enter the market. The price at that point reflects an optimal balance of supply and demand – there are no shortages.

But a problem with the market is the difference between short term and long term expectations. Sometimes it is in the long term interest of a seller to forgo short term profit. In other words it is in the interest of Sony to discount the entry batch of PS3s to a price below what the market will bear. If there were no long term concerns, then every seller would sell at the price the market would bear on a particular day, but there just are long term concerns.

By selling you a PS3 at a discount, Sony wants to get something back from you. They want your purchase to contribute to an impression that the PS3 is reasonably priced. In the long term this will mean more sales for Sony (and the possibility of even deeper discounts for future consumers if the console is a real hit). Similarly, when a sports team sells you a ticket at below market price, they want all buyers to give them something back - their attendance, because full stadiums make people want to come back again and again, and this is better for the business in the long run.

By scalping, you are depriving the seller of that good. You are messing up their long term prospects. This is not a win-win transaction. It is inefficient.

For example: scalpers may buy up all the tickets to basketball games. They will then sell them at the price the market will bear. It will probably be the case that they won't sell all the tickets, since people will be more likely to avoid going to games because of the high price. As long as the scalpers sell enough to cover the price of all the tickets + a profit, they will be happy, but this may well leave many seats unoccupied at games. This is bad for the sports team in all sorts of ways. The sports team wanted to sell all the tickets, but they also wanted everyone who bought one to turn up.

You can see what has happened here. The sports team is not getting "full price" for its goods. They are losing money in the long term. This will make it less profitable for other people to get in the business, and we will see a shortage of sports goods. The scalpers are screwing everyone over, both the sellers and the vast majority of buyers. They are making the market work less efficiently than it should.

That's why scalping is bad for the free market.

[duffman9000]

If they choose not to profit from it, no one should. Hence its a bad thing.

Jesus... it amazes me how few people understand why there is a PS3 shortage. Sony can't produce more PS3s. There is a supply shortage. Without raising the MSRP there isn't anything Sony can do after retailers sell their stock. The only way Sony can benefit is if 1) They raise the MSRP so they can recoup their losses from each PS3 sooner or 2) Produce more PS3s(which they can't right now). If they don't want to raise the price on the PS3 or can't produce enough unit, THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM NOT MINE.

[Agathon]

Jesus... it amazes me how few people understand why there is a PS3 shortage. Sony can't produce more PS3s. There is a supply shortage. Without raising the MSRP there isn't anything Sony can do after retailers sell their stock. The only way Sony can benefit is if 1) They raise the MSRP so they can recoup their losses from each PS3 sooner or 2) Produce more PS3s(which they can't right now). If they don't want to raise the price on the PS3 or can't produce enough unit, THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM NOT MINE.

And you claim to go to college?

Why don't you read the rest of the thread, or at least take an economics 101 course before you embarrass yourself further?

[duffman9000]

That's not my argument. Sony is pricing the PS3 lower than the market will bear because they want to benefit from a particular good that is actualized by that price. That's why they are giving a discount.

What you do when you buy an intro PS3 at that price benefits Sony in the long run, even when they aren't making as much money as they could on that one sale. Sony doesn't want the PS3 launch to be accompanied by tales of how expensive the thing is, or how you can only really get one on eBay. Both of those things harm Sony.

If you buy one off of eBay or sell one, that deprives Sony of the good that they sought to acquire by discounting the PS3.

It really is that simple.

Deprieving Sony of good publicity? I think they've done a better job than anything Joe six-pack can do. Sony understood that the PS3 would be expensive, if anything the PS3 should cost more. Tales of the PS3 being expensive(or not relatively expensive) sprang from Sony themselves. Read some of the Ken Kutagari interviews. Sony did their best to shut him up or retract the things he said before he lost golden-boy study.

To create a console with such a huge production loss is THEIR fault, not ours.

[duffman9000]

And you claim to go to college?

Why don't you read the rest of the thread, or at least take an economics 101 course before you embarrass yourself further?

I've been on this thread from almost the beginning. By the sound of your posts you sound like you "care" about Sony. Like Sony would care about you.

Econ? You sound like a social-science major that has never worked a day of his or her life.
If Sony can't produce enough PS3s to satisfy demand, THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM. We owe no allegiance to a company and can resell their products for whatever the market will bear. Did we create the PS3 shortage? No, we didn't, but like any company we can take advantage of market conditions to make money.

[faustfire]

It's the same scenario.

In both cases the seller is discounting a good because they want to receive some other good that attends upon their product being sold at a lower price. Scalping in both cases deprives the seller of that good, and in turn it deprives consumers of even cheaper PS3s down the line because the initial scalping puts consumers off buying them.

Stretching it a bit.:rolleyes:

[duffman9000]

Stretching it a bit.:rolleyes:

The "good" Agathon keeps alluding to is money. Do consumers control production? No. Do consumers control the PS3's MSRP? Again no. Sony wishes that it could produce more PS3s right now, but they can't. They even resorted to withholding shipments of blue diodes to companies producing HD and BR players. Kutaragi asserted that people that wanted a PS3 badly enough would work harder and pay more for it. Sure, a lot of people laughed and he was passed up for promotion, but he was probably right.

I understand why Sony priced the PS3 so much lower than the estimated Bill of Materials speculate. So why in the world would i want to help Sony in any shape or form? If you have a HDTV, getting a 599.99 BR player is a bargain. Some of the movie studios that back BR will not release their content on HD-DVD. I can't say that every studio will take sides, but some already have. If the PS3 does dominate the market, then Sony will have a huge customer base to potentially sell BR movies to. And somehow i'm supposed to care for what's good for Sony?

[DEXTERITY]

If anyone cares here are the new rules in regards to pre-selling a ps3 and wii. Too bad they made changes to their policy in the middle of people pre-selling the items opposed to before.


Thank you for writing eBay in regard to your account suspension.

Pre-sales are limited to 30 days prior to the release date of the
product. Please also note that eBay is not permitting Playstation 3 or
Nintendo Wii wholesale lists, websites or email domains to be listed.

If you have not had a chance to review eBay's current pre-sale policy,
you may find this page to be helpful. You can find the listing policy
page at the following link:

http://pages.ebay.com/ebaymotors/help/policies/pre-sale.html

Due to the high demand and limited supply of PlayStation 3 and Nintendo
Wii products we are taking stronger measures to protect both buyers and
sellers in the eBay community.

Violation of these guidelines may cause your account to be indefinitely
suspended.

If listing a Playstation 3 or Nintendo Wii for pre-sale the following
criteria must be met when listing your item in order to better protect
yourself as well as other members of the eBay community.

- Have 50 feedback with a feedback score of 98% or above
- You may only list one Playstation 3 and one Nintendo Wii System
- Buy It Now or 1 day listings cannot be used
- The purchase may only be made through PayPal to a verified PayPal
account making the purchase available for buyer protection.
- Include a photograph of your actual store receipt; just be sure to
block out any personal information such as credit card numbers. Your
User ID should also be clearly displayed in the image.

We do look forward to receiving the requested information for review in
your case.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Lilley
eBay Customer Support

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

[bobber205]

Sounds like a reasonable compromise from ebay.

[Agathon]

The "good" Agathon keeps alluding to is money. Do consumers control production? No. Do consumers control the PS3's MSRP? Again no. Sony wishes that it could produce more PS3s right now, but they can't. They even resorted to withholding shipments of blue diodes to companies producing HD and BR players. Kutaragi asserted that people that wanted a PS3 badly enough would work harder and pay more for it. Sure, a lot of people laughed and he was passed up for promotion, but he was probably right.

I understand why Sony priced the PS3 so much lower than the estimated Bill of Materials speculate. So why in the world would i want to help Sony in any shape or form? If you have a HDTV, getting a 599.99 BR player is a bargain. Some of the movie studios that back BR will not release their content on HD-DVD. I can't say that every studio will take sides, but some already have. If the PS3 does dominate the market, then Sony will have a huge customer base to potentially sell BR movies to. And somehow i'm supposed to care for what's good for Sony?

You're clueless. No-one, least of all me, is claiming that you would want to help Sony. All that is being claimed is that from the point of view of market efficiency, scalping is a bad thing in cases like this.

Nothing you've said has the slightest impact on my argument.

I'm sorry that you don't have the education to understand this. It's probably not your fault, but it still doesn't mean that you should pontificate about things you know nothing about. And you have demonstrated a basic ignorance of market economics in this thread. Sometimes, in order for a market to function efficiently, both sellers and buyers have to moderate their own interests, or have regulators force them to.

You simply don't know what you are talking about.

[BornAgainMac]

Why doesn't Sony just sell them for $1200 each and pocket the profit? At least for the first 6 months. People complain they are too expensive at $600 and when Sony drops the price from $1200 to $600 then these people will snatch them up quick.

[Melkor]

Wow, interesting thread. I really can't decide who I agree with. I was thinking "it should be ok to resell them for a profit, the people who don't get them straight away will get over it and get one eventually."

But then I thought back to that faithful christmas when the ps2 first came out and thought about how happy it made me and my brother to get one. I wouldn't want to deprive that from others. The whole "if you really wanted one, you would have stood in line and got one" attitude doesn't really seem right here (to me anyway).

It would be different in another situation like buying and selling houses to 'flip' for a greater profit. It seems more ethical to me to do business like this with property rather than ps3s.

[MacRumorUser]

Thanks for posting that Dexterity. This is what I assumed they had done and still think its good, however I do agree with you they should had posted this to you in the first instance and this thread would never have happened and they should not have cancelled your other items period.

I never had a problem with you selling your PS3, but I do see ebays point and anything that protects consumers in general is a good thing. The arse over tit way they went around doing it was wrong, but heck Ebay's european HQ has over 1000 Irish men & women working there so you'll have to blame the irish ;) :p oh wait i'm...... :D

Hopefully this puts this thread to an end, because it's really going nowhere fast ;)

good luck to you and to other potential PS3 buyers / sellers. I dont have the problem of getting one till march and hopefully they'll be plenty of supply by then :p


If anyone cares here are the new rules in regards to pre-selling a ps3 and wii. Too bad they made changes to their policy in the middle of people pre-selling the items opposed to before.


Thank you for writing eBay in regard to your account suspension.

Pre-sales are limited to 30 days prior to the release date of the
product. Please also note that eBay is not permitting Playstation 3 or
Nintendo Wii wholesale lists, websites or email domains to be listed.

If you have not had a chance to review eBay's current pre-sale policy,
you may find this page to be helpful. You can find the listing policy
page at the following link:

http://pages.ebay.com/ebaymotors/help/policies/pre-sale.html

Due to the high demand and limited supply of PlayStation 3 and Nintendo
Wii products we are taking stronger measures to protect both buyers and
sellers in the eBay community.

Violation of these guidelines may cause your account to be indefinitely
suspended.

If listing a Playstation 3 or Nintendo Wii for pre-sale the following
criteria must be met when listing your item in order to better protect
yourself as well as other members of the eBay community.

- Have 50 feedback with a feedback score of 98% or above
- You may only list one Playstation 3 and one Nintendo Wii System
- Buy It Now or 1 day listings cannot be used
- The purchase may only be made through PayPal to a verified PayPal
account making the purchase available for buyer protection.
- Include a photograph of your actual store receipt; just be sure to
block out any personal information such as credit card numbers. Your
User ID should also be clearly displayed in the image.

We do look forward to receiving the requested information for review in
your case.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Lilley
eBay Customer Support

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

[duffman9000]

You're clueless. No-one, least of all me, is claiming that you would want to help Sony. All that is being claimed is that from the point of view of market efficiency, scalping is a bad thing in cases like this.

Nothing you've said has the slightest impact on my argument.

I'm sorry that you don't have the education to understand this. It's probably not your fault, but it still doesn't mean that you should pontificate about things you know nothing about. And you have demonstrated a basic ignorance of market economics in this thread. Sometimes, in order for a market to function efficiently, both sellers and buyers have to moderate their own interests, or have regulators force them to.

You simply don't know what you are talking about.

Sorry to rain on your holier than thou attitude and education, but just about everything you've discussed is complete BS. You sound like a social-science major still living with his or her parents.

Should I rehash your previous posts? This isn't failure of market. The PS3 production shortage is caused from a purely technical issue: not enough blue diodes. END OF STORY.


It would be better if they limited purchases to one per person.

You don’t have a clue so it’s obvious that I have to correct you. No retailer sold a person more than one PS3, at least not in plain sight. There could have been some shady deals as the stores opened. The OP probably asked someone else to stand in line in with him to place the preorder. There is nothing the retailer could have done about this.


Its up to the Sony Corporation and its resellers to fix the price. If the market is working correctly, then they will fix the highest price they can get for the number of units they have.

Market working correctly? ROFL…


However, in some cases (like the introduction of a new and popular product with limited supply) they can't do this.

Sony is after market penetration. Any first-year Econ major could have told you that.


So they can't raise the price and there will be a short supply. Why should scalpers benefit from this? What value do they contribute? What are they doing that will lead to more PS3s being produced and the supply problem being fixed?

Nothing. Scalpers in this situation contribute nothing to the economy. Giving them money isn't going to make Sony produce PS3s faster or reward Sony for producing a product that a lot of people want.

Reward Sony? It's up to consumers to reward a company for producing goods? You're pouring on the idealism pretty thick now. When has Sony thought about “rewarding” consumers? Think exploding batteries and spyware-laden discs.

And now for the mother of all stupid posts...


If anyone should profit from this, it is Sony. If they choose not to profit from it, no one should. Hence its a bad thing.

No doubt the funniest argument you’ve made. Do you realize that there are 3rd world markets that big companies can’t/won’t cater to? I’ll give you an example so that even the owner of a vast cavern of a skull such as yours can comprehend the meaning. A friend of mine exports copy machines and high-end printers from the US to South America. Many are older models that are still in excellent working condition. By your argument, if the manufacturer chooses not to profit from this, then no one should. Sure…

This is not a failure of market. Unless you think that lower than expected production yields on a new technology is somehow a failure of market. Yields on new technology are almost always low at the beginning. Say high to mom and dad today.

[paddy]

You sound like a social-science major still living with his or her parents...


You don’t have a clue so it’s obvious that I have to correct you...

I’ll give you an example so that even the owner of a vast cavern of a skull such as yours can comprehend the meaning.

God take it easy it's only a games console, no need to give yourself a heart attack.

[duffman9000]

God take it easy it's only a games console, no need to give yourself a heart attack.

Actually, i'm enjoying this thread...lol. I had to correct Mr. Alan Greenspan though.

[paddy]

Actually, i'm enjoying this thread...lol. I had to correct Mr. Alan Greenspan though.

Fair enough I suppose. :rolleyes:

[Agathon]

Sorry to rain on your holier than thou attitude and education, but just about everything you've discussed is complete BS. You sound like a social-science major still living with his or her parents.

Should I rehash your previous posts? This isn't failure of market. The PS3 production shortage is caused from a purely technical issue: not enough blue diodes. END OF STORY.

Is that the best you can do?

It doesn't matter why there is a shortage. What matters is Sony selling them below the price the market will bear... for any reason there is a shortage. It doesn't matter why. They could have decided it was best in their interest to limit the supply themselves, or not. It is a separate issue from their holding the price down.

If you are going to portray yourself as some genius, then you ought to focus on the actual argument at hand.

You don’t have a clue so it’s obvious that I have to correct you. No retailer sold a person more than one PS3, at least not in plain sight. There could have been some shady deals as the stores opened. The OP probably asked someone else to stand in line in with him to place the preorder. There is nothing the retailer could have done about this.

This is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the general point about scalping being bad. That is what is at issue here, not how people manage to get them to scalp. Please stick to the issue at hand, and avoid red herrings.

Sony is after market penetration. Any first-year Econ major could have told you that.

This is irrelevant. Please stick to comments relevant to the actual argument.

Reward Sony? It's up to consumers to reward a company for producing goods? You're pouring on the idealism pretty thick now. When has Sony thought about “rewarding” consumers? Think exploding batteries and spyware-laden discs.

Um... the point of a market is to provide incentives for people to make useful things. That's econ 101. Let's not pay Sony anything and see how many PS3s they make.

No doubt the funniest argument you’ve made. Do you realize that there are 3rd world markets that big companies can’t/won’t cater to? I’ll give you an example so that even the owner of a vast cavern of a skull such as yours can comprehend the meaning. A friend of mine exports copy machines and high-end printers from the US to South America. Many are older models that are still in excellent working condition. By your argument, if the manufacturer chooses not to profit from this, then no one should. Sure…

This is not a failure of market. Unless you think that lower than expected production yields on a new technology is somehow a failure of market. Yields on new technology are almost always low at the beginning. Say high to mom and dad today.

Again, you have completely missed my argument. Nice one, genius. Is it too difficult for you?

Why don't you stick to my actual argument and not some pathetic reconstruction you made of it? My point is that Sony is discounting the initial run of PS3s because it is in their long term interest to do so. They don't want the negative publicity of high prices. Scalpers are frustrating that goal. This happens all the time. There isn't anything unique about this situation.

That's a general point about scalping. Your argument focuses on the reasons for the shortage. That is not what is at issue (I really couldn't care less why there is a shortage). The issue is the discount below what the market will bear and why they are doing that.

I think the problem is that you are just thick and/or refusing to engage with the actual argument. And your little barbs are hilarious. If you only knew...

Please try harder.

[Agathon]

Why doesn't Sony just sell them for $1200 each and pocket the profit? At least for the first 6 months. People complain they are too expensive at $600 and when Sony drops the price from $1200 to $600 then these people will snatch them up quick.

Because they don't want it tagged as a super expensive console. It's in their long term interests to lose money on the first ones in order to gain a favourable impression from future buyers.

[macdaddy121]

Selling for $2000+ on ebay right now.

[duffman9000]

They could have decided it was best in their interest to limit the supply themselves, or not. It is a separate issue from their holding the price down.

The most ignorant post yet...
Sony has produced as many PS3s as physically possible. They would love to produce more for the holiday season. They can't. Stick your head back in the sand until you understand this.


Um... the point of a market is to provide incentives for people to make useful things. That's econ 101. Let's not pay Sony anything and see how many PS3s they make.

Who said anything about not paying Sony for producing PS3s? That would still leave Nintendo and Microsoft creating desirable products. Sony has to provide the incentives for consumers to purchase their products which they have. If Sony doesn't like the current market they can go the way of Sega. It was Sony's decision to construct the PS3 with relatively cutting edge components.


Why don't you stick to my actual argument and not some pathetic reconstruction you made of it? My point is that Sony is discounting the initial run of PS3s because it is in their long term interest to do so. They don't want the negative publicity of high prices. Scalpers are frustrating that goal. This happens all the time. There isn't anything unique about this situation.

I did stick to ridiculing your so-called argument. Blame consumers? Right. Put the blame where it rightfully belongs: on Sony. They've sabotaged their own goals by not stockpiling(hoarding) enough blue diodes to produce large enough quantities of PS3s.


That's a general point about scalping. Your argument focuses on the reasons for the shortage. That is not what is at issue (I really couldn't care less why there is a shortage). The issue is the discount below what the market will bear and why they are doing that.
Of course you don't care about why there is a shortage. Sony is the cause of scalping. Sony created the marketing monster that is the PS3 and now you blame consumers for buying into the hype? Making a PS3 more affordable($599 vs $699) is an issue? Not that those prices are affordable but they are lower than current BR players.

Seems like you have a personal issue against scalping. The same buy-first and resell later for astronomical gains applies to the stock market and property. By the looks of your avatar you must prescribe to the socialist(and that's being nice) view of how the market should work. Again, not based on reality.

[Agathon]

Look, you are just missing the argument. The cause of the shortage does not need to be explained. What is interesting is Sony's decision not to take advantage of it themselves. About the only serious suggestion was Clay's: a Dutch Auction. But Sony won't do that because it doesn't serve their long term interests.

If you won't believe me, believe Paul Krugman.

This is from an article that he wrote about scalping and hot currency. He comes to the conclusion that it is difficult to stop it, but that is separate from the fact that it is a bad thing long term. Again, he's saying that ticket scalping is a bad thing, but that it may be impossible to stop. That's not rocket science, but it is different from saying that it is a good thing.

There may well be nothing that can feasibly be done about eBay sellers, but that does not change the fact that from the market point of view it is a bad thing in the long term.

From Krugman (bolded portions are the most relevant)

Ticket scalping is nothing new, though it continues to pose something of an economic puzzle. The fact is that there are a number of public events--most notably sports, but also concerts, plays, museum shows, etc.--for which tickets are consistently sold below the price that would limit demand to the available supply. Exactly why the owners of stadiums and theaters do this is a matter of some dispute. One theory (due to Chicago economist Gary Becker) is that tickets are underpriced because those who sell them believe that it is crucial to their image to have sold-out houses. Beyond this, many stadium and theater owners seem to believe that as an overall marketing strategy it is important that access to their most popular events be available to enthusiasts at moderate prices. For example, why doesn't George Lucas allow theaters to offer special preview showings of The Phantom Menace at astronomical (galactic?) prices, when surely they could find tens or even hundreds of thousands of people able and willing to pay? Presumably because so blatant a statement that wealth hath its privileges would alienate the tens of millions of nonwealthy moviegoers he counts on to turn the film into a megahit. Whatever the precise reasoning, what is clear is that when it comes to big games and big shows, private sector entrepreneurs themselves often feel that it is a bad idea to let market forces rule.

Enter the scalpers. If they can, scalpers will buy up large numbers of tickets directly from the box office and resell them at a profit. If the box office refuses to sell in bulk, they will offer to buy spare tickets from people who have come by them legitimately and perhaps hire people to stand in line. What's wrong with that? Well, the people who run the box office are attempting to pursue social goals--albeit in the ultimate name of profit--which require that tickets go not only to those who can afford to pay a lot but also to those who really care and are willing to book early and/or stand in line. If tickets sell out long in advance not to enthusiasts but to speculators, or if the long lines consist not of dedicated fans but of hired proxies, this attempt to pursue a long-term agenda is defeated. And so there is a running conflict between the long-run thinking represented by the box offices and the short-run market forces represented by scalpers--a conflict that seems increasingly to be running in the scalpers' favor.

Why does scalping seem ever harder to control? One reason is that because of the rising inequality of income and wealth, there are more people out there able and willing to pay extraordinary sums. This is above all true in New York, where there are thousands of people who will not blanch at paying $10,000 to see and be seen at a Knicks game. But scalping is also on the rise because of an interaction between technology and ideology.
It's clear that technology has made scalping much more efficient than in the past. Once upon a time it was a hands-on business. Shady characters would hang around stadiums offering to buy tickets at a premium or to sell them at an even larger premium. Those shady characters are still there, but you can also look up big-ticket brokers on the Web, call their 800 numbers, and comfortably conduct your transaction from home or office. This makes it easy for the out-of-town visitor to line up tickets for that special evening or for the hard-driving executive to impress his clients. It also means that everyone who has bought a ticket at the box office knows that the true cost of going to the show is not the sum he actually paid but the much larger sum he could make by reselling that ticket.

Still, the technology would not be as effective as it is were it not for a favorable ideological climate. While there are anti-scalping laws in many places--such as New York City--there are also a growing number of places, such as New Jersey, that believe in letting the market rip and therefore allow tickets to be freely resold at any price. And given modern communications technology, New Yorkers need not physically visit New Jersey to do an end run around the local regulations.

And so the pressure on box offices steadily intensifies. Box offices do fight back. A couple years ago Madison Square Garden, discovering that many of its season ticket holders were reselling them to brokers, revoked thousands of tickets in a stroke. And the people spending weeks in line to see The Phantom Menace are, as far as anyone knows, genuine fanatics rather than hirelings. Still, it is hard to escape the feeling that these are rear-guard actions. We seem to be heading for a future in which the crowd at a Knicks game will consist mainly of businessmen on expense accounts--and, so the management of Madison Square Garden fears, a longer-term future in which serious Knicks fans, finding that they can't afford tickets, lose interest, and therefore so do the businessmen. Short-run market pressures may eventually leave everyone worse off; and yet they seem to be getting harder and harder to defy

http://www.slate.com/id/28017/

See.... short run market pressures may leave everyone worse off.

Now try harder.

[duffman9000]

You keep mentioning that PS3 scalping will have long term consequences for Sony, but this didn't apply to the PS2 or Xbox 360. As soon as production picks up the reseller's market will implode. This happened with the PS2 and with the Xbox 360. Barring a regression in current blue diode yields, PS3 production should pick up shortly after Christmas.

Your analogy to other areas where scalping occurs is flawed. There are only X amount of tickets for games and big shows. Unlike the last Super Bowl or seeing your favorite band play, the PS3 will become available again. Sony will saturate the market as soon as they can.

Any Knick analogy fails when the team has sucked for 8 straight years and people still buy tickets. People have been scalping tickets for longer, but the Knicks are still popular and hugely profitable. Goes against all reasoning.

[DEXTERITY]

Thanks for posting that Dexterity. This is what I assumed they had done and still think its good, however I do agree with you they should had posted this to you in the first instance and this thread would never have happened and they should not have cancelled your other items period.

I never had a problem with you selling your PS3, but I do see ebays point and anything that protects consumers in general is a good thing. The arse over tit way they went around doing it was wrong, but heck Ebay's european HQ has over 1000 Irish men & women working there so you'll have to blame the irish ;) :p oh wait i'm...... :D

Hopefully this puts this thread to an end, because it's really going nowhere fast ;)

good luck to you and to other potential PS3 buyers / sellers. I dont have the problem of getting one till march and hopefully they'll be plenty of supply by then :p

lol...Thanks, appreciate that. Yeah it would have been nice if they didn't change the policy mid stream after the ps3 was listed and after they told me what I had to change (which didn't include the new rules). Hopefully, things sort themself out, still waiting to hear back. I can't imagine them not giving my account back if they actually trace the chain of events..but they are taking forever.. took almost 2 weeks until I got a reply stating the new rules....

[Agathon]

You keep mentioning that PS3 scalping will have long term consequences for Sony, but this didn't apply to the PS2 or Xbox 360. As soon as production picks up the reseller's market will implode. This happened with the PS2 and with the Xbox 360. Barring a regression in current blue diode yields, PS3 production should pick up shortly after Christmas.

It does have consequences. They don't want to give it the reputation of being priced higher to the end user than it already is.

It really wouldn't matter whether a shortage of diodes or whatever happened, there would still probably be a shortage when the first batch comes out, and the same thing would apply.

Your analogy to other areas where scalping occurs is flawed. There are only X amount of tickets for games and big shows. Unlike the last Super Bowl or seeing your favorite band play, the PS3 will become available again. Sony will saturate the market as soon as they can.

I don't think the analogy fails in that respect. All I am claiming is that there is a shortage and underpricing for long term reasons. I think I'm on reasonable grounds there. The only difference is that Sony will eventually sell for the market clearing price, and the sports teams won't. That's just to say that scalping is a temporary problem for Sony, but a permanent problem for other people.

Any Knick analogy fails when the team has sucked for 8 straight years and people still buy tickets. People have been scalping tickets for longer, but the Knicks are still popular and hugely profitable. Goes against all reasoning.

LOL. I have no idea about the Knicks. I am not a hoops fan.

That's Krugman's example not mine. It's certainly true of the Toronto Maple Leafs, and also of professional English soccer teams. Leaf games are full of suits. The last time I went (I had free tickets through a friend) everyone around me was talking business deals, and this while there was a general brawl on the ice (biggest scrap of that season IIRC). It does dampen the atmosphere. On the other hand, I went to a pro lacrosse playoff game, where poor folks could afford tickets, and the crowd was awesome, even though the arena was not full.

Anyway, more later. I have to work.

[savar]

If the whole point is you needing them or wanting them, then why not just steal them? The point of paying for them is to encourage (a) the supplier to make useful things, and (b) other potential suppliers to get in the market if it is possible to sell the thing at a lower cost.

This is first year economics. What's the problem?

I wouldn't steal it because that's illegal and impinges on somebody else's right to freedom of property. If they were giving them away for free though, I would certainly take them. I've never bought anything with the intention of encouraging more companies to enter a particular industry, increase competition, and bring prices down. (I believe that's the claim you were making.)

I couldn't do that even if I wanted to. A fundamental axiom of classical price equilibrium is that no consumer or producer is large enough to affect the market significantly.

No problem here...I'm "several years" past Econ 101.

I'm not sure which textbook you've read, but most economists agree that the motivation behind any kind of consenual trade is for each party to obtain something that they prefer more than the thing they already have. I have 12 beers and you have 2 pizzas. My marginal utility for 1 pizza is higher than my marginal utility for beers #7-12, and vice versa for you. We trade because we both benefit. At no point did it enter my mind that by giving you 6 beers I would be encouraging you or anybody else to begin producing more pizzas, possibly at a lower price.

Anyway, this is a very interesting discussion but I think we're reaching a point where everybody is arguing past each other. Some people just have fundamentally different beliefs. I believe that information makes markets healthy...and so I see how scalping is really quite offensive if scalpers are getting inside deals to buy tickets. And if anybody is using inside connections to get PS3s in the same way then that's condemnable. But for anybody who gets one just like anybody else...I don't see why they shouldn't be free to do with it what they want: play with it, sell it, bury it in the ground -- whatever. You can hate them for it, but that doesn't make it immoral.

[savar]

http://www.slate.com/id/28017/

See.... short run market pressures may leave everyone worse off.

Now try harder.

That's a good point, but think about what you're saying. You think it's immoral for the distribution of goods to be based on who can pay the most. Instead, you think it would be right for goods to be distributed to the people who need or want them the most. Diehard Knicks fans should get tickets at a price they can afford, right? A poseur in a suit will expense $500 floor seats, show up 20 minutes late, and then spend more time talking about business than paying attention to the game. Is that wrong?

I wish we could distribute things to the people who want them the most. The world would be a much better place. But how could society seriously support such an economy? People would just exaggerate their desire for every commodity. How would we know who actually wants them the most? And do you really expect all producers to forgo profit that could be obtained from consumers with lots of cash in order to sell to the person who claims to
"want it" the most?

[Agathon]

That's a good point, but think about what you're saying. You think it's immoral for the distribution of goods to be based on who can pay the most. Instead, you think it would be right for goods to be distributed to the people who need or want them the most. Diehard Knicks fans should get tickets at a price they can afford, right? A poseur in a suit will expense $500 floor seats, show up 20 minutes late, and then spend more time talking about business than paying attention to the game. Is that wrong?


Nonononono

That's not what I am saying. In this case the company is intentionally discounting tickets because it serves their long term interest (and the interest of fans) to do so. I don't think it is immoral or uneconomical in general for goods to go to the highest bidder, but in some cases it is one or the other or both. It's just a kind of market failure. Sometimes allowing short term gains leads to a long term loss.

[DEXTERITY]

hate to bring this back up, but below is the policy going forward in regards to selling a ps3 or wii ON OR AFTER Nov 17th.

To sell these items after November 17 we will require the following
from
sellers:

1. You must have the item in your possession at the time of listing.
The listing must include a photograph of the actual product in your
possession. Please clearly have your USER ID displayed within the
photograph. If you have multiple products in your possession, please
useone photo containing all items. No stock images will be accepted.

2. A copy of the sales receipt(s) (or other proof of purchase) for the
items. In order to protect yourself please black out any sensitive
personal information such as credit card information.

P.S. I finally got my account back, lol...

[MacRumorUser]

hate to bring this back up, but below is the policy going forward in regards to selling a ps3 or wii ON OR AFTER Nov 17th.

To sell these items after November 17 we will require the following
from
sellers:

1. You must have the item in your possession at the time of listing.
The listing must include a photograph of the actual product in your
possession. Please clearly have your USER ID displayed within the
photograph. If you have multiple products in your possession, please
useone photo containing all items. No stock images will be accepted.

2. A copy of the sales receipt(s) (or other proof of purchase) for the
items. In order to protect yourself please black out any sensitive
personal information such as credit card information.

P.S. I finally got my account back, lol...

Thanks DEXTERITY. They are pretty much the guidelines we lay down to people selling items here on mac forums marketplace. Ebay must be copying. ;)

I'm sure people will be able to get these up within a few hours of purchasing their machines with all the correct info and they will still sell for $$$$$$ big money.

just ebay being responsible, during the inevitable chaos that will follow there was bound to be the scam listings catching people out on there too, (just look for mac listings, half of the hardware ones are scams).

Good luck with your sale, if Ebay had sorted the info out sooner then this whole thread could have been avoided :)

[DEXTERITY]

no problem at all, thank you. Yeah you're right. They could have definitely handled it better. Seems like they created more work for themselves in regards to reinstating a lot of accounts.

Funny thing, now they have filters set up so if you try to post a ps3 or wii and don't match the requirments it denys the listing. They should have did that in the first place. I tried to sell a set of Nintendo Wii playing cards which are really rare and even that was denied lol..