Something better happen soon, or we are in trouble

[MacManiac1224]

I am a loyal Mac fan, but also a Stock market specialist. I have recently been reading about Intel and AMD, and the new chips that are coming out. I think there may ba a problem for Apple. I am hearing reports from various soruces throughout the net saying Apple is not going to release the G5 in MWNY, well, they better do something, becasue AMD is going to release thier Hammer Chip in the Summer, and Intel is going to release thier new McKinley chip this summer also. I only say that if Apple wants to get into the server market, they better have something bigger and better then Intel and AMD to compete. Also in the Pro market: I highly doubt the G4 will be able to take on the Hammer and the McKinley, even in Graphics, So Apple better do something.

What do you guys think?

[OSUbuckeyefan]

Yep - apple better get a fire under thier ass.

[Taft]

Motorola is really just keeping up at this point. They need to get the G5 out the door and make it good enough to best the Intel chips out there.

They really need a new chip. A fast chip.

Matthew

[DNA]

...that Apple isn't focusing more on the consumer market just because they, due to the lack of a new chip, consider the battle lost in the high-end area of the market. But it could be that way, I guess.

[theranch]

They better get something "earth shattering" out the door soon....these dual processor machines are nothing but a patch job to their line. Don't get me wrong, they are fast machines...if you have the software that utilizes them properly. It seems like Apple is saying...oh yeah AMD and Pentium well...we have-a-fast-machine too... The new 2x 1ghz G4 was only released after everyone saw the new iMac and the Apple desktop line up didn't look so fast anymore. Apple in my opinion is behind in the game right now and they seriously need to gain my confidence with a G5 crazy a** machine.
Whew...got that off my chest.

[Spock]

Apple needs to start crapping or get of the pot.

[agreenster]

Apple seems like they are always behind the PC world. I dont know why that is. Sure, we had firewire first, and some other minor things, but it always seems like when the PC has some new and faster hardware, apple drags its feet and releases a similar, or maybe slightly better thing later. (Im talking hardware here, not OS, which is quite the opposite)

Take DDR ram for example. How long has THAT been out, and Apple still hasnt released a system that uses this. And they certainly arent as quick to develop processors.
Yeah, they are innovative, and make fast, cool-looking products, but they just dont bring them around as fast as the PC market does. maybe its an economic thing.

[Macmaniac]

Apple HAS to got with G5's soon, or they are totally screwed! They need something with alot of press and MWNY is the plave to do it. I think it will be a G5 at macworld at 1.6ghz dual with DDR ram, FireWire2(Or whatever name it is), and some really cool design to put it in. Apple should bust a move before the Wintel world does. We need to be, "The first with 5." Bad joke;) but hey we can hope(Prayin now)

[jvaska]

I am a loyal Mac fan, but also a Stock market specialist.

i disagree completely...

apple makes better machines...better OS'...being behind AMD and Intel...who cares...and the idea that it will be faster for graphics...uh, yeah...like that will sway any of my designer friends to switch...

investers...stock marketers...you guys really need to stop trying to tell people where it's at...or maybe you shouild pay back the trillions that you sucked out of regular people's bank accounts by saying "buy...buy" when it was clearly a bad idea...watering down the watering hole...

don't believe the hype!!

you can get into all the semantics about market forces and such you want...apple has been here for years...has weathered much worse times...and they still are without a doubt a high quality company...

so much of dot.communism was about hype...meaningless...

i can wait for a g5...my g4 is a great machine...it will happen someday soon...and i will likely buy one...jv

[unclepain]

Apple has always played catch up in terms of hardware, but that's not what Apple is known for. They are know for their superior design, and awesome software and user interface. No one has ever said, "OH MY GOD, That Apple Motherboard ROCKS!" They have had to follow the lead of the Wintel world for many things hardware wise to ensure compatibility. IDE drives, USB, Ethernet, SDRAM, AGP etc. The only things they were first to market on were firewire and ADC. Those technologies haven't exactly set the PC world on fire... no pun intended. Apple has to be behind the curve as far as the internal components go to maintain compatibility and to keep prices down. As far as the processor goes, I don't think we can fault Apple for this totally. I'm sure they would love to put a 3 GHZ G5 chip in their machines today if they could, but the reality of it is that Moto is really holding the reigns here. TO be honest with you, I personally think Moto has too many irons in the fire to maintain a lead in the Desktop Processor race. When you think of Intel, what do you think of? Desktop CPUS. When you think of Moto, what do you think of. Walkie Talkies. Maybe cell phones. Who else besides Mac geeks think of Moto as a desktop CPU manufacturer? Not many, and it's because that's not what Moto's primary function is. I won't claim to know what the answer is, cause I don't. If I did, I would be working here. But just remember what Apple really is good at. UI, easy to use Apps, wonderful hardware designs. They have to follow the hardware standards just like every other PC maker out there.

[OSeXy!]

Originally posted by unclepain
...No one has ever said, "OH MY GOD, That Apple Motherboard ROCKS"!
Probably true. But why is that? I think Moto HAS been slow (compared to AMD) to update the G4's specs. But it looks like the real drag in the system is now down to the motherboard. Who is in charge of that? Who is leading who on this?

I was excited when the Apollos came out, and then depressed when I read that they still only had that same old 133MHz bus! Maybe Apple has a fab mobo in the wings and are waiting for the chips to fit it -- or, as MOSR seems to think -- it's the other way around... I'm not necessarily looking to say "that Apple Motherboard ROCKS!", I just don't want to say "that Apple Motherboard SUCKS ROCKS". Why can't they get their act together on this?

[Jookbox]

major upgrades of athlons and pentiums will kill apple in performance, but not necessairly business. too bad apple has no competition, they can take as long as they want, but still maintain that single digit market share, because it's too strong a proposition for some mac fiends to switch over.

[Taft]

Originally posted by unclepain
IDE drives, USB, Ethernet, SDRAM, AGP etc. The only things they were first to market on were firewire and ADC. Those technologies haven't exactly set the PC world on fire... no pun intended.

I think firewire is doing very well. It is very superior to USB and Firewire 2 will be superior to USB 2. I think Firewire will live (you've got a lot of video cameras, hard disks, and cd players/burners out there). ADB was too closed to take off, and it wasn't anything more than a specialized serial port.

And as for Apple leading the way...They've been credited with popularizing USB, Airport (801.11 I think...), and Firewire. I think thats a pretty good track record. I think first to market, and wide spread acceptance are two very different things.

Matthew

[Taft]

Originally posted by jvaska


i disagree completely...

apple makes better machines...better OS'...being behind AMD and Intel...who cares...and the idea that it will be faster for graphics...uh, yeah...like that will sway any of my designer friends to switch...

You are right, people don't buy Macs because they are the absolute fastest. But Apple needs to stop just keeping up with Intel; they need to break away or lead. The perception that Apple doesn't make comparable machines to a dual 2G Intel machine DOES hurt them.

Graphics professionals don't care if their machine is the fastest out there, but other types of consumers do. Apple needs to offer solutions for everyone. And if enough people start saying that Macs have an inferior processor, people may even begin to abandon ship...even graphics pros.

In short, Apple can only gain by trying to get ahead of Intel. And they can only lose by continuing to slightly lag behind Intel. Not that they will definitely lose, but it certainly won't help them win.

Cold hard truth. And you all know it deep down inside your Mac-loving brains. All of us Mac-heads need a dose of that reality sometimes.

Matthew

[Ensign Paris]

I think the G5 will be quite a good revision and I think we will see it at San Francisco.

[dualburn001]

i think we'll see them in New York. Their will be to much hype going in to New York for Apple to turn people down. They'll treat us right and give us a G5, and hopefully bump up thier motherboard lines by alot.


Dualburn001

[barkmonster]

:D

[dualburn001]

Originally posted by barkmonster
If you read the specs on the motorola site you'll see that the G4, even the new Apollo 7455 chip only has a 133Mhz FSB (front side bus), the fsb determines the type of RAM the CPU can use, DDR is 266Mhz so it won't work (please someone who understands this better, correct me if I'm wrong).

now when you concider that the largest cache on the G4 chips hasn't gone any higher than 250Mhz ever (the 533Mhz G4 is an exception but lets ignore that, it was mid range not high end). DDR ram could be used instead of the optional L3 cache, it'd save apple production costs for not having to add the extra cost of the cache and we'd all be happy.

look at the largest cache on the high end G4s since the G4's introduction:

500Mhz G4, 1Mb Cache at 250Mhz (2:1 ratio)
733Mhz G4, 1Mb Cache at 244Mhz (3:1 ratio)
1Ghz G4, 2Mb Cache at 250Mhz (4:1 ratio)

If apple get rid of the Level 3 cache and motorola increase the Level 2 cache to 512K and add 266Mhz DDR ram support, the G4s will scream even if the clock speeds only increase to a maximum of 1.2Ghz on the high end and 1Ghz on the entry level by summer.

Just look how lame a G4 without the 2Mb cache compares to one with the cache and you'll see how the larger cache is just as much of a bottleneck as the slow memory. I use my mac for audio and unless I can get a good deal on the mid range mac near the end of the year, I'm gonna have to look at what End Of Life deals are around at the time and try and get the current 933Mhz model just so I know it performs well enough for my needs while remaining cheap enough for me to afford one.

someone has been doing thier research!


Dualburn001

[ivtrk]

.

[mischief]

Originally posted by ivtrk
A fast processor won't do you any good if your OS sucks *ss.

Perhaps you were looking for an M$ usergroup?

No, wait you actually registered......so I can only assume you want to get Flamed.I think Arn's working on a "flame my stupid ignorant ass" Forum you may do better in. I figure you, redeye, Xg5, and Timothy ought to love it.

Learn to keep yer mouth shut.:p :rolleyes:

Okay, I jumped the gun. Sorry guys. Too high an Idiot count recently. I got a bit paranoid.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Mischief: i was assuming he meant that the wintel machines are no good because of their crappy os.

i completely agree with most of you guys abou the whole apple better get their act together. and dont say its moto's fault not apple. Apple should drop moto. and the fact that they havent is a joke. this is why im pissed at apple. drop moto let ibm take over and then go shopping for a new third wheel. moto is in such dire straits that im sure ibm and apple could purchase whatever pertanent patents they need to continue with the ppc line and get the G5 out the door.

the big reason we need a faster processor isnt because amd and intel are ahead (although that does matter) but because apple's software division is clearly way ahead of its hardware division. osx feels a bit like apple is putting the cart before the horse. sure we have the best OS available for desktop computing but who cares if even your highest end machine cant run it well. the hardware should be in such a place that even apple's lowest rung can run osx well. yes the hew dual g4s are fast, but just the fast that anyone is talking about window resizing and window load times is ridiculous. these should be such low level system tasks that the difference at this level should be inperceptable between the different hardware lines. steve has been running around like a mad man talking about the operating system of the future but ntice no mention of the hardware of the future to run it.

apple has not always been behind. in fact apple is almost always ahead of the curve. its only a very recent phenomena that apple's processors have been slower than the intel world. dont you people remember the snail with the p3 on its back, that was just 3 years ago people. the last two years have been bad, very bad for apple processors. and i blame it all on moto and apple's idiotic loyalty to moto.

if you look at any other part of the machine apple is ahead of peecee's but since moto took over the processor has lagged big time. and now they are slapping abunch of g5ish features on the g4 to extend the chips life. the new machines feel like they are on life support its a joke. the g4 was originally mapped out to 1ghz. we are there lets move on, dont worry the g4 has a nice place in a beautiful new imac. the g5 was originally mapped out to be released march of 2000. march of 2002 is just around the corner and all indications say not this year. whats the hold up? more than 2 years behind schedule and apple is allowing moto to stay in charge? has steve lost his mind? does apple even care?

osx is clearly design with a number of goals in mind but one very clear one is to attract wintel/linux users. and its doing this. but dont expect the same loyalty out of these guys. they will move on when the watering hole runs dry.

apple needs to air those pentium snail commercials again. i doubt it will win many over, but its an arms race, its a about bragging rights. apple's got to whip theirs out and show everyone they too are well hung. otherwise apple will be relegated to the joke category again. if apple wants to maintain the good press and be considered a serious computer they need to step up and measure themselves against the rest of the big boys.

i thought for sure apple would be the first to 64 bits. i was certain of it. looks like im gonna get proved wrong, such a shame since osx is seriously under powered right now.

[mymemory]

Well, I do not have money now and looks like I won't have enoght even after MWNY, so Apple can take its time developing what ever they need, I'm stuck with my G4 400..:(

[krossfyter]

apple is got a different plan once again. they dont care what amd or intel are up to. apple knows they have better products and are on a different level. amd and intel are playing a stupid old game.

[mywar2000]

Mischief! Chill...

Given the context of this thread, I was under the impression that ivtrk was talking about wintel boxes having a sh|ty OS...and fast processors. Oh well, I might be wrong too?!

[rekras]

Dont get me wrong I'd like to see the g5 out as much as the next guy, but i cant help but kinda feel bad for apple. sure amd and intel can get fast chips out there all the time, because that's what they do. that is what they're company is entirely based on, chips. apple on the other hand has to deal with consumer desktops, laptops, pro desktops and laptops, iprograms, digital devices, wireless technology and devices, prosoftware, operating systems, and last but not least chips (i know motorolla makes the chips, but it still has a ton to do with apple). that is a ********* of things to deal with, and im sure i forgot some. and will all those things, all of u b*tch that u need faster mhz. i cant wait until the day when chips are so ridiculusly fast that it wont matter anymore what mhz they are. then u will all see what apple has done for us with they're innovation and hard work.

BTW- the guys who use g4s in kernels do not choose macs for the mhz, they use them for the velocity engine, energy efficiency, and stable operating system.

[krossfyter]

my sentiments exactly rekras...

to hell with that mhz crap...im tired of it....for what the majority of people are doing both in the average user pool and specialist (pro) pool...apples mhz are good enough. the important part in computing is what apple has nipped in the bud but these peecee weenies just dong get it. these guys are behind the times in terms of what the computer should be.

[neseus]

I have a PC and a mac, my pc's mghtz is higher, and my mac still kicks butt. in my experience, my imac is faster than any PC i've ever worked on. As far as apple dragging their feet in everything, i also say bull crap. Apple has worked less on technicalities and more on fundementals such as size (its sad when the g4 cube is half the size of microsoft's xbox... you'd think they'd get the point that smaller is better) and ease of updating, software, etc. Notice how pentium 4 came out after g4. if ANYTHING, the PC world is behind the mac world. they are the ones that seem to be copying all of apple's ideas. just my opinion...

[mischief]

Tidbits from Apple's campus:

Steve wants Apple introducing a new toy (HW or SW) every 3 months.

The consumer Desktop and Pro portable jump technologies first as a less sophisticated consumer in the Desktop and more pro consumer in the Laptop gives you good over all feedback in the 2 strongest markets. (Please don't argue that point, I sold the freakin things in an all Mac store for 18 months)

There is something called "Mystic" under development that has internal rumors about a device that does ALL of the things we've been speculating about for iPod. Logical conclusion: Apple will produce 3 iPods total: A hybrid camera, a PCS/palmtop, and the MP3 version we already have.

Conclusion:

It makes sense that the G4 has "a lot of life left in it" if you assume it's gonna be in the iMac/iBook. We'll see a new iPod in about a month (3 months after MWSF). We'll see new Towers at MWNY along with X.2 and G5.

The statement that iMac LCD was the first Mac designed specifically to run X should be taken to mean that ALL the other CPU's are under major revision.

Assuming that 3 out of 4 CPUs AND the OS are all being revved it becomes clear why there's a bottleneck.

We can assume there will be a whole new case/Mobo in the new tower from the age of the existing design. From what we've been hearing the new case will be controversial and amazing. Relax, we'll soon be smokin cigars to Apple's pro-line once again.

[MacKenzie999]

Hey folks...

I'm one of those graphics professionals so frequenty mentioned here. I've been a mac user since the eighties, and among my circle of designer friends & acquaintences I am considered to be pretty knowledgeable about hardware & software. In reality my knowledge is only enough to make me dangerous, and I would never compare myself with any of you tecchie types, but I definately pay more attention to the types of issues discussed here than most of my designer buds.

Anyway, my point (yes there actually is one!) is that a pretty good chunk of graphics pros love their macs, don't buy new systems often enough to bother keeping up with the pc joneses, and consider their machines to be good enough. Sure you can make some pretty good arguments for pc superiority, but unless the difference between the two platforms becomes staggeringly one-sided I wouldn't expect a flood of graphics pros to go dump their systems, invest in new software and learn all the idiosyncracies of a similar but inferior OS just so they can have the current fastest bus or whatever. I bought one of the new towers released in January 2001 and at the time it was fantastic. In the year since I bought it, it has been totally eclipsed by the newer machines, nobody here would brag about my 466, but you know what? It's still fantastic. Maybe if pcs came out with something like, I don't know, thought-recognition software, then I would consider migrating to the dark side, but you know what? Short of something that radical I will probably stick with what I already know and love. I'm sure I speak for many other graphics pros as well. Just my $.02

[mcrain]

Hey everyone.

First off, I'm a wintel user! Yes, I'm one of the hoards of bad people that have bought totally into the megahertz myth, etc... I've been one of those typical wintel people that love to make fun of friends and their silly macs.

Second, so you don't flame me too bad, I'm considering switching from wintel machines to apples. That being said, I've been doing extensive research to try to figure out why people like macs so much, and so I can feel justified in buying a mac. I don't want to buy a machine that's more expensive and over a gigahertz slower than a wintel machine (if it in fact is slower).

Ok, here's an observation. Everyone keeps clamoring for a new chip, faster motherboard, different memory chips, whatever. Newsflash, wintel machines are constantly being superceded and made obsolete. You should be happy that doesn't happen nearly as often with macs.

(random thought - maybe apple's next unveiling at the next show will be a computer and peripherals that use firewire 2).

Another observation. Apple makes by far the nicest looking laptops of anyone. Apple also makes one heck of an OS. I've played with OSX on a friend's machine, and am very impressed with how nice it looks, and works.

Final observation. Apple is trying to take on the world all by itself. Apple uses one chip type (motorola g3's and g4's) in the computers that it makes, that use the OS that it also makes.

Wintel's big advantage isn't that the chips are "faster" or that Widows is better... the advantage is that Microsoft has nothing better to do than work on its software. Intel has nothing better to do than make its chips faster/better. AMD also.

Wintel machines are made by______. (fill in the blank). Dell, HP, Compaq, IBM, Sony, etc. etc. etc. all make wintel machines, not to mention thousands of companies that build boxes from the ground up.

Competition has led to much much faster evolution of the wintel pc.

In my humble wintel opinion, Apple should consider creating an OSX version that runs on pcs. Apple should also consider putting out computer models that make use of other chips from other manufacturers.

Now, everyone is going to say that the big benefit to an "apple" is that everything works, and works well. In addition, there are speed advantages with the chip/OS combination.

All I have to say to that is, I would have considered switching if I hadn't had a chance to work with OSX. So, maybe more people would consider Apple computers a viable option to wintel machines if they used a stripped down version of OSX on a beige box.

Remember, wintel users have been conditioned by Intel and Gates to think regular upgrades are commonplace. That conditioning has led to a constant and ready supply of people looking to buy computers. Somehow apple needs to get those people to consider their product. The easiest way to do that (since Apple doesn't sell in more than a few stores, and none around here, oh, and they don't like to stock their products) is to port the software out and then once people use it, convince them that it works much better on an apple.

By the way, the imac's neat looking, but for goodness sakes, talk about a machine that can't be upgraded. At least I can tear apart my piece of crap wintel machine and add hard drive space, cards, etc... Heck, I can even change the mother board if I wanted to.

FYI, I'm sick to death of Windows, and would use OSX in a heartbeat. The only things keeping me from buying an apple are cost and a lack of solid information comparing apple's to pc's.

One final note. I have the utmost respect for Apple, and would be happy as can be if they ate into the Wintel market share, but to do so, something has to change.

M

[BlowJobBilly]

mcrain, you just suck, because you dont know alot about macs. so how can you do statements with your pee-cee toilet-machine knowledge.

even a mac g4 400mhz kicks a pentiums 1200mhz ass'.

intel, microsoft are the most evil companies (incl. mcdonalds) in the world, they make you believe a lie, when youre to stupid to think different.

[ednote:

if you don't have anything nice to say... well you know the rest...

seriously, this is uncalled for...

arn
]

[rickag]

mcrain
Ignore BlowJobBilly, he obviously has nothing meaningful to add to the topic. Ranting and gutter language indicates a lack of knowledge.

[rastalin94]

mcrain you brought up a good point, people need to actually use OS X to understand the difference. I have been wanting a mac to replace my PC for a few months now, but it was not till after actually using OS X at a friend's house that I was just floored by OS X. Using iMoive I was able to do stuff so much more smoothly than I have ever been able to on a PC. I was using a Ti-Laptop that was 233 MHz slower than my PC, yet the machine was so much more fun to work with. OS X can just do things that Windows can not do no matter how many MHz you throw at it. I would take my friends 666MHz laptop over a 2.2 GHz PIV for video editing in a heart beat. I am starting to understand that computers are all about the OS and not about MHz.

[mcrain]

What people don't seem to want to accept is that mac users aren't necessarily smarter than PC users, they just have exposure to something different. That something different happens to work very well.

My comment is intended to do one thing. Demonstrate that PC users aren't all brainwashed by some evil company like intel or windows. The real problem apple has is exposure. The only way to get exposure to apple computers is to buy one from apple. The only way to get exposure to an apple os, is to buy an apple computer with the apple os on it. The only way to get exposure to itunes, iDVD, ieverything else, is to buy an apple, with apple's os, and then use the iwhatever.

To a person who has a beige box already, like me, that's a big step!

If I could just have a little exposure to the apple products (hey, memo to apple, a store demo or two that are in stock might help) or have the apple os to try (maybe just a cut-down sample version like they do for video games), I'd be a lot less nervous about the big step of buying a new computer, new os, new software, new everything.

Hey BJ Billy - I have to respond, just cause I do. As a PC user who is considering an apple purchase, I'd venture a guess that I'm far more well rounded in my knowledge base than you. Not to mention open minded. I've done research, and am familiar with many speed comparisons between apple and pc's, but as I can tell you, those tests are hard to find and are not always conclusive. I've also extensively used PC's, Unix machines, and apples (although I haven't used apples much for quite a while).

Let me ask you all a question. Which person do you think will have better constructive critisism of a company and its products? A person who blindly accepts that company's products and defends that company like a rabid dog, or someone who has no personal interest in the company, is a longstanding user of the competitor's products, but has no ill will towards the company? If apple wants to beat "wintel" at its own game, it needs to listen to one of those two people.

If apple has any intention of increasing its market share, it really should listen to people like me, because it's people like me that they need to "bring into the fold."

By the way, if you think Intel or Windows are the evil "corporations," you've forgotten my boss. Ha ha ha ha ha!

[mcrain]

hey Rasta, that's exactly how I got hooked on apple. I started playing with my friends ti notebook at 500 mhz and it's tons faster than my PC running at the same speed.

I think if more people could get their hands on apples (Hey Steve Jobs, you might want to think about putting demo's in stores or maybe stocking some of the computers you sell), more people would buy them.

[AmbitiousLemon]

im glad mcrain came around because i think he represents a very select group of peecee users. he is intelligient. has tried to educate himself. but i still ignorant.

no offense intended mcrain, but i find it so funny when pc users come in and tell everyone why apple is "failing" and what apple needs to do.

and as for your question at the end. all i can say is i have no loyalty to apple. everytime i buy a computer or advise a friend or coworker. i dont just blurt out "buy an apple" most apple users do not have some blinding allegiance to the company. we are fond of the company no doubt, and we like our computers but i have to say i would jump ship in an instant if something better were around. i think those who read my posts here know that i often critisize apple, and most people here spend their entire time on the boards pointing out problems with apple. i know you are probably just responding to billyboys moronic response, but its still insulting to the rest of us.

the "port osx to wintel" idea is not new. its not something you came up with. the idea though is one of the worse things apple could do. im not going to even outline them because there are at least 3 threads here i know of that discuss this in detail.

before you start lecturing everyone and announcing your plans that will whip apple into shape please take some time to look at what others have thought of in the past, and what apple has actually done in the past.

im glad you have taken a liking to osx and apple machines, and i can appreciate that making the jump can be frightening, but dont think that because you have suddenly seen the light that this has also imparted special knowledge on you. im sorry but you are nothing special. and although you may have played with an apple computer and liked it, this doesnt mean you understand apple's current market situation.

if all you want is information thats great and people here will be happy to give it to you, but dont insult us by your ignorant ramblings because we were all a new customer at some point and we have all either taken the time to learn about apple or we have kept our mouths shut until we do get all the info.

if you want bench marks there is always barefeets, and if you want a history lesson, well start out reading some of the appropriate threads here and pick up some of the books mentioned if you want more. then get back to us with your thoughts after you have educated yourself, until then we dont want to hear your ignorant ramblings.

i know i sound a bit harsh here but people like you are a big part of the problem. you have educated yourself just enough to be arrogant and opinionated but havent educated yourself enough to overcome your ignorance.

if you truly are interested in apple, then start by asking questions not by giving commands. im sure if you did this you wouldnt get jerks like billyboy mouthing off to you (i wont even discuss what the problem is with people like that).

i hope i dont sound to mean, or insulting here. i dont intend to be, im just trying to let you know that you need some more info before you can pretend to know whats best for apple. so please ask questions. that will bring you to an understanding faster than ignorant rants.

[krossfyter]

take a breather....ask questions...research....then do it again. this is the only way one can learn. then its all up to you which way you want to go. i agree with ambitious lemon.

[mcrain]

I fully agree that the "best" way for someone to become knowledgable with apple and its products is to research, research, etc... However, Apple is a publicly traded company. Their goal is to make money. My point is NOT that I'm right and they need to listen to me, but that Apple needs to get people who don't want to spend a month researching things to consider apple products. In my opinion, the best way to get people to switch is to show them what you are offering.

As for saying I'm ranting or ignorant, or in some way insulting apple loyalists, if I have in any way offended anyone, I apologize. However, I have been researching apple, its history, its products, benchmarks, etc...

I'm not here to say I know more than anyone else, all I'm saying is that I did not consider apple until I had exposure to apple products. As such, I don't think it is a bad idea for apple to consider actions to increase the exposure of its products to people who are considering a new computer.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
im glad mcrain came around because i think he represents a very select group of peecee users. he is intelligient. has tried to educate himself. but i still ignorant.

no offense intended mcrain, but i find it so funny when pc users come in and tell everyone why apple is "failing" and what apple needs to do.

AmbitiousLemon, you accused me of being ignorant, etc... and possibly offending all mac users by my comments... I have only one comment... I'm not a member of some "very select group of peecee users." You seem to underestimate the remaining 95% of computer users out there. Peecee users are just like mac users. We buy what we know and what we think is the best. Which again points out Apple's one failing - lack of exposure to the marketplace.

I'm one PC user who is more than happy to say that if I had had exposure to apple before I bought my last computer, I would have been a Mac user already.

Exposure leads to sales.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Mcrain: im sorry if i offended you i tried to say that wasnt my intent. perhaps i should have used the word nieve instead of ignorant, but it all boils down to the same thing. all of us who use macs were in the same position pc users were in at some point. we either had no computer and entered the market exposed mostly to pcs or we entered having a pc. but rather than just buy what was offered us as we entered compusa we explored our options and quickly found apple to be the best choice for us. you said yourself if you had know about apple you would have been an apple user. there is nothing wrong with admitting you made an uneducated choice. especially since now you seem to be interested in fixing that bad decision. but just admit that you did in fact make an uneducated, nieve, ignorant (whatever you want to call it so it has less teeth) choice.

the reason i went off on how you shouldnt be lecturing apple, is because you made a suggestion that has been tried in one form and failed miserably and has been explored in other forms and never found to be worth exploring further. you seemed to think your idea was something new. but port macos to non apple hardware was tried and it almost killed apple. porting macos to x86 machines has been explored by apple and many on these boards and has been found to be a bad idea.

as far as exposure, apple has limited funds. they cant do a complete media blitz. but think about what they ahve done. they ahve been on the cover of Time. they get reported on in the news everytime they release a new product. the ipod has gotten quite a bit of attention. tey are featured in many movies and tv shows (if you watched these shows without knowing what the real world was like you would think apple had 95%). Apple gets a lot of press, all good. Soon the ipod will be released to wintel computers with a 10gb harddrive. i think that will give some exposure.

Apple is doing what they can. But i hate to say it but you are not the average pc user. Most still have the belief that apple sucks. and they refuse to look into it. overcoming that is a lot more difficult than simply porting osx to wintel. all this will do is canabalize apple's already small market share. apple makes money from hardware. it attracts people with software but doesnt make moeny from it. if they lose the hardware sales they will lose money. And creating a "scaled down" version of osx will only do an injustice to osx, in addition to sucking up valuable R&D time and money. Apple is on the right path. they are getting constant free advertising from the media. they have attracted the linux community who is a lot easier to attract because they must be educated if they left the ms world, these people are easier to attract than windows users. and so in a slow progression apple will collect more market share.

but the reason i went off saying that you should do some research wasnt because you need to do much research to chose apple over wintel, i was saying do research before making market plans for apple. if you had you would have learned some of the things i just said and much much more.

all you need to do to understand why apple is better is to use one for a few minutes. apple has been working on the way stores display their machines and has even created its own line of stores. all of this will give people their 10 minutes on an apple.

again sorry if i was a bit harsh earlier. i didnt intend to be. i just get tired of people spouting off the same old bad ideas when clearly they havent researched apple's past and present.

[Grokgod]

There are Apple stores that allow everyone to be exposed to Apple products!

Its everyones choice and responsiblilty to expose themselves to the information that will help them make an educated decision.

Pcee users buy PC because its easliy available and they believe that there isnt software out there for the mac. Which was true for a while if your into games. Pcee users are gamers and the common man. Just like VHS that once beat out Beta which was a superior tape, but all the Porn was being made oh VHS. So the common man won out.

Mac's are for more discriminating tastes which takes a more discriminating mind to yearn to understand and seek the information that will lead them to a greater understanding.

Everyone on the planet knows that Mac's exist, if you didnt know they they existed then I can understand that you werent exposed to its user experience.

This is the era that Pcee's will begin to die, and OSX will being to take over. Barring any bad events like imacs not shipping, etc

Get on board with the new generation and if your worried about exposure, get all you Pcee friend to turn away from madness and look at the future of computing , that what i do!

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Grokgod
There are Apple stores that allow everyone to be exposed to Apple products!

Its everyones choice and responsiblilty to expose themselves to the information that will help them make an educated decision.

Pcee users buy PC because its easliy available and they believe that there isnt software out there for the mac.

Wow, talk about superiority complex. There are I think 30 or so Apple stores. The closest one to me is 3 hours away, and I'm fairly close to one! Beyond that, there are a few apple authorized resellers, but the one's near here have no stock! CompUSA sells apple, but the two stores I drove hours to visit, guess what, had no stock!

It is not a consumer's job to expose themselves to products. If a company wants business, it has to make its product available, and also promote them.

Apple is the best at getting free press (excluding windows' free press related to the anti-trust suit), but the average joe buys PC, not because its easily available, but because it's the ONLY thing available.

So far I have been flamed for being ignorant or uneducated or a basic bad PC guy. What no one seems to understand is that if I am willing to buy apple after having seen and used their product, there have to be others who would also, if only they had access to apple stuff.

You bring up the Beta vs. VHS argument. Beta was better, and would have won had they merely exposed more people to the product (even if that meant licensing to porn studeos). But, instead of doing that, they sat back, and users of Beta kept saying that everyone who bought VHS were dumb, undeducation morons who just didn't take the time to education themselves.

I like apple too damn much for it to suffer the same fate as Beta.

Apple, if your listening, you need more stores, more "shelf space" in major retail outlets (Circuit City, Best Buy, CompUSA, etc...), and you need to demand that your sellers stock the products they sell.

Fiat may be a better car for all I know than the cars sold at the local dealer, but if I never see one or test drive one, how am I supposed to know that? Am I supposed to fly to Italy and test drive one? If I don't buy a Fiat, is that my fault in some way?

I may not have reviewed everyone elses suggestions in the past for Apple expanding and succeeding, so I know what I'm suggesting isn't exactly a novel idea, but the point of this thread is that "something has to happen soon."

By the way, let me dispell one of the mac megamyths. PC users aren't all brainwashed by Microsoft or Intel into thinking there isn't software for macs, or macs are slower, or that mac's just aren't any good. Fact of the matter is most PC users decide one day to buy a computer and go to the store to see what's for sale. When they don't see macs, guess what, they don't buy macs. It's not because Gates is evil, it's because of shelf space and exposure. Go to your local Best buy and watch how many middle age people come in to buy their first computer or to buy one for their kids who know nothing about computers.

So, I guess because I'm frustrated that Apple isn't selling more because it doesn't sell their products except in very very limited places, you should all flame me. Bring it on Mr. Betamax, I'm a big boy.

[AmbitiousLemon]

McRain: dude chill a bit. no one is attacking you. we are merely asking you think before you speak. not so much to ask.

your last post was just another blatant example of how you mouth off without understanding what is going on.

the imac was the best selling computer ever. the imac2 has beat the original. these things are flying off the shelves like you wouldnt believe (or perhaps would since you couldnt find one) to confound the situation apple has had production problems with some of the slower imacs. it isnt good. but its something that just happened. the lack of supply is new and is temporary. this is why you couldnt fin one at your local stores. its not that there is never macs at these stores. if you had asked people at the stores where the macs were or spent a second or two to look into the matter you would realize that this just happened. but instead you jump to the conclusion that macs are never in stock anywhere.

and as much as you like to "dispell one of the mac megamyths" you clearly again dont know what you are talking about. Apple doesnt have macs in radioshack and bestbuy because of the simple reason that the salesmen were lying to customers. saying some of the things you claim people dont believe. apple had the same problems at compusa but was able to convince compusa to hire special apple certified salesmen. mac users say these things about pc users not because we are mean. we say them because we run into people everyday who believe the things you claim no one believes. when we go to stores we see salesmen convincing ma and pa not to buy a mac even though thats what they thought they wanted. the salesmen say things like there is no mac software, or mac's cant read email from pc users, or macs can visit any websites because they are all made by pcs because everyone uses pcs.

if you have spent time in a store you will notice most new users go straight for the macs and are led away by salesmen who dont understand them. these boards are full of these stories.

apple IS taking steps to correct these problems. and yes there are only a few stores but they are very new and apple is opening more all the time. apple is putting apple certified salesmen in stores that will allow it. and you better believe apple is trying to meet demand and get those imacs out there.

instead of saying there are no macs everywhere i looked THIS is apples problem! why dont you ask people here hey guys i couldnt find an imac anywhere i looked whats going on is this normal? people would respond in a much more friendly manner if you asked questions when you didnt understand what was going on, instead of making accusations and pretending you can solve all of apple's "problems."

so dude chill. and ask questions because you clearly dont know everything about apple. its ok to ask questions you know. we will all think a lot more of you in fact.

no one here is intending to attack you. we are glad you have found apple and liked what you found. we would love to help you ease your way into a nice shiny new mac. we are just a little bothered that you keep going on the attack with ideas that are unresearched and only based on your very limited experience.

when any one of us first got into macs we didnt know what we were doing. we didnt know everything about the apple market. but we learned slowly and asked questions to slowly learn what was going on. we have all been where you are now, its nothing to be ashamed of. its ok to ask questions. because if you dont and you just mouth off without knowing the whole story then you just make yourself sound nieve.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Grokgod


This is the era that Pcee's will begin to die, and OSX will being to take over.




I hope your right man...I hope your right. There are a number if people where im from who are peecee users and are thinking about switching because of osx and the new imac.


awsome

[Traveler]

OK this was going to be a nice long discussion of the mcrain vs. ambitious lemon debate, however... my motivation has just been completely depleted by the desire to sleep. So, I will only say this: Lemon, you are in many cases correct in telling mcrain to ask more questions and make fewer assumptions. Afterall, apple IS trying to increase it's exposure and has been doing so for quite a while. However, my real point is that the effectiveness of your argument is lessened by the smug, passive-agressive attitude you seem to have adopted towards mcrain's arguments. I can just see you now leaning back in your ergonomically designed computer chair, laughing softly to yourself as you read each of mcrains responces on your brand new g4 powerbook and then clucking pompously while you dispense your nuggets of wisdom to your newly adopted pupil. This is the problem with many Mac owners. Our egos are falsely inflated by what we like to think of as superior consuming habits when in reality it was more likely pure chance that we were exposed to Apples before pc's. We are not savvy, investigative purchasers, we are just lucky. And we have grown too comfortable in our little niche. We feel safe and secure knowing that our incestuous 5% share can persist just as long as we all keep doing our part to support apple with a new purchase every 2.5 years. And all this makes it easy for us to dismiss valid points offhand. But Lemon... you don't have all the answers any more than mcrain does so stop acting like you do. It certainly doesn't engender good will to all our potential apple brethren. I agree with Mcrain when he says apple needs more exposure. In my opinion apple should have tackled the issue of exposure a long time ago. The retail stores are years late in coming and putting up with CompuUSA's salesmen shenanagans for so long is just plain negligence. Clearly, appearing in virtually every movie and tv show for the past 5 years doesn't cut it. So instead of patting young grasshopper on the head and telling him to run off and do some more research, it is we that should pay attention him. He's like a focus group dream. A member of the consuming public who can clearly express his reasons for consuming the way he does and at the same time propose better ways for us to approach him as a potential customer. Now, to be fair to apple I can find no blatant missteps in their marketing game plan but neither can I profess to know exactly what that game plan is and obviously something is amiss or else the world would all be using macs... because they are the better system :) I trust Apple to do the right thing in the end but it wouldn't hurt for them to listen up a little bit.

[arn]

Originally posted by Traveler
But Lemon... you don't have all the answers any more than mcrain does so stop acting like you do. It certainly doesn't engender good will to all our potential apple brethren. I agree with Mcrain when he says apple needs more exposure. In my opinion apple should have tackled the issue of exposure a long time ago. The retail stores are years late in coming and putting up with CompuUSA's salesmen shenanagans for so long is just plain negligence.

I rejoined this thread late.... but I can kind of get the jist of it... I guess a lot of it is "perspective"...

a PC user might come to the Apple side and say "hey guys - Apple needs more exposure..." and give examples of how...

hmm.... I think the reason it invokes ire in the Apple-following is that it's obvious Apple needs more exposure... many of the Mac users from 10 years ago was saying the same thing - Apple needs more exposure...

It's like telling a drowning man - "hey - you should try and swim..."

The point is Apple's exposure/growth is better now than it's been in a long time.... mcrain - realize the fact that you are even considering switching is probably from the recent expansion of Apple's exposure (which includes Mac OS X itself, iApps etc... as well as stores/marketing)

Anyhow, mcrain... imagine that you do switch... and in 5 years, Apple has 10% marketshare and there's an Apple store in every major city... and then all these potential switchers start talking about how Apple needs more exposure... and here are some ideas.... :)

As for OS X on Intel... I have my reasons why Apple will not do this... for my views on this: http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=2215&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

arn

[krossfyter]

wow i had no idea that this post debate would ever come to this...where arn would have to join in and kinda calm it down a little. thats impressive there guys. i hope the both of you... mcrain and ambitious lemon... can agree to disagree and mutually respect each other no matter what differences in opionions one may have. both of you all have great things to add to this forum.... i can also tell that you all are not short on intelligence. rock on to the both of you. much respect.

[Traveler]

You have expressed my sentiments in a way that I could not.

[humantech]

keep in mind a few points -
For apple to upgrade to a g5 chip ( which have been testing for quite some time, and starting to be available in quantity) , they need a new motherboard. Without one, the peformance gains of the g5 will seem small, which is a marketing nightmare.
For Apple to release a new motherboard, they have to have a compelling feature set, or its a temporary, waste of money fix.
For apple to release the latest and greatest feature set, standards have to be set, or its nubus and adb all over again. This feature set will need to include firewire 2, possible usb 2, WHATEVER the predominant fast ram architecture is ( whose to say ddr is it?), and an overall bus width fast enough to accomodate the likely added system overhead of os X in its 64 bit incarnation. As of right now, there is no critical mass of usb 2, firewire 2 is just now getting through its process of standardizing and ddr ram may be in short supply.
This is not a simple matter of Apple sitting on their laurels and going " We dont care if intel and amd have faster chips. la-la-la" this is business. This is war ( look at the landscape in the pc world. Most of the main players and competitors went away in the consumer space last year. That leaves apple an awesome opportunity to move Seriously into the consumer market, which is a surefire way to get the analysts off their backs relating to their market share)
Also, for the last two years( the years where apples mhz progress has been lackluster), Apple has had their primary brainpower in OS X development. Most of the OS X crew has now been put into place in other, hardware and lifestyle device departments. The new motherboard will happen, which will have a g5 sitting on top of it.
As an Apple specialist reseller, I see new users using the macs every day in my store. These are increasingly pc users looking to switch. OS X is the key. These people dont even ask the processor speed. They see the capabilities. The things their pc WONT do, and the words intel and amd never come up. The computing landscape is changing. Apple needs higher performance for servers. Everything else digital and important, the rule in today, right now - at a lower mhz. I have pc graphics and video guys( AND SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS NOW THAT OS X IS HERE)with brand new, tricked out pc's coming in to get their trade in value so they can step up to the plate on a platform that "just works".
I want the G5 very badly, but I think everyone will be pleasantly suprised at macworld because Apple didnt just stick a G5 into a quicksilver and call it a G5 in january. And as for Apple being in trouble, I would worry more about Dell. With OS X out the door, apples back into hardware development, and things are about to heat up. I almost feel bad for the pc competitors, but well, I'll take good care of their old customers for them..... :D
humantech

[Dunepilot]

Now that we've got back to the point of this thread....

humantech has just put me back in a good mood after trundling through all of the mac melancholy (and I'm sometimes of that mindset as much as anyone else) of the posts of the last couple of days

I know it gets frustrating that Apple doesn't always do what we want it to, but despite their marketing leaving a lot to be desired (as has been mentioned, product placement seems to have had little effect) humantech has reminded us all of just how much talent there is at Apple.

I personally think that we should maybe look at the current G4 Quicksilver line as equivalent to the Yikes PCI G4 that came out when the G4 was first released, i.e. as an interim solution until the technology for the G5 is ready, and probably introduce a bunch of other architecture changes that won't let the chip down.

[on a more negative note - let's just hope Moto don't cock this up, or keep on with their "oh, there's a lot of life left in the G4" line, which frankly is
an insult to consumers' intelligence]

[blindman858]

apple wants something good just as much as the next guy. Motorolla is who they depend on for chips. We need to get them moving. Apple better start making some big pushes in order to keep up.

[krossfyter]

dont worry...have faith my friend...apple is going to come through in a big way. i can feel it in the mac force!!!

[King Cobra]

Originally posted by blindman858
apple wants something good just as much as the next guy. Motorolla is who they depend on for chips. We need to get them moving. Apple better start making some big pushes in order to keep up.

Agreed. Not only must Apple find a way to push Motorola to the red, but Apple must also improve their speed increments every time their is an update. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that every six months we improve our top of the line Powermacs by about 200MHz. AND, Apple really should lower their Mac prices by a huge amount if they are going to be able to inspire people who just want a fast computer for cheap money. The last time I checked, P4 2.2GHz computers sold for less than $2000, and we are selling our dual 1gig for $3000. Apple better do something by Macworld New York

[rickag]

As far as cost, go to Dell's website and customize the 4400 to match the high end iMac.
You'll have to upgrade to the super drive, upgrade to the Geforce 2, upgrade to the 15"LCD add an ethernet card, etc. etc.
What you'll find ist that the Dell 4400 w/ the 1.7Ghz Intel chip will cost you about $100 more than the iMac.

I know, I know, what will be said. "But the iMac doesn't have PCI slots and upgradable video card".

So what, the iMac's target market is for the consumer that doesn't want to screw around inside the computer, but wants easy set up and be able to use iPhoto, iDVD, iMovie, etc. Apparently, @ least 150,000 people feel this way.

Oh and by the way, @ least for DVD encoding the iMac will knock the snot out the Dell. Now that the iMac has Altivec, my guess is that more and more software will be optimized for it.:D

So if you want to build your own Windows computer, go right ahead and deal with incompatible drivers and software glitches and spend countless time on the internet downloading patches and the potential for inferior equipment from third party suppliers that didn't do their homework. A lot of consumers do this and that's great, but a lot of consumers don't and that's also great.

But don't keep insisting that Apple computers are more expensive than the competion. It don't hold water.:p

[AmbitiousLemon]

rickag: you are right, of course, but ill play pease maker here (because since u already put him in his place i dont have to). i think cobra boy was just saying that an uneducated consumer who does not know what they are getting thinks macs are expensive. (btw you forgot all the free software on the mac that would cost at least an extra grand on a pc to replace)

If the consumer asks the right questions (and has a salemen who knows what he is talking about) then he will realize the mac is a lot cheaper than the pc. Its like when buying a car you look to see what features are added to see if the price is fair. If you find a car with no fm radio, no AC, etc it will be at a good price but the consumer will gladly pay a lil more for one with all these features. At first glance it seems like the mac is a little more just because it gives so much more. Also the mac has the stigma of higher prices from days gone by.

Apple has rigorously attacked prices in the past couple years. Prices have dropped dramatically, and i expect this trend to continue (though in baby steps)(three steps forward two steps back in the case of the imac). At the same time (the two steps back) apple has been cramming more and more features (whether it be software or hardware) into the computers.

still if the customer doesnt take a look at the sticker to see whats included and doesnt ask the salemen about it then he might be tempted by the dark side. i think apple is very aware of this and those of us who have followed apple for a long time know apple has been working on this lately. cobra's observations are partially right then, because clearly apple feels this is something they need to go after. i think most of us are pleased to see the steps apple has taken to lower prices without sacrificing quality or features. but of course we are mac users so we wll always ask for more. luckily i think in this case apple is working hard to deliver.

[lewdvig]

What the hell do you know about what Apple should do (reference to the original post).

If you don't like what they are doing sell your shares.

Right now there are people at Apple burning holes in their stomachs thinking of ways to make neat stuff people will buy. The company is in good hands. If you can't see that, then you must be blind.

[MacAztec]

The Hammer, McKinley? Oh wow, I am shaking in my boots. They need to develop an operating system first. Windows 2000? XP? NT!!?!?
Now I am laughing my A$$ off!

Please, you know those chips will be fast. But what are you going to be using them on? A Windows Machine.

G4?? G5!!! Oh wow, I am now shaking in my boots. Wha? OS 9? OS X? OMG, Apple is superior!

[sweetaction]

Why do we need a G5? Something just a little faster? Apple does not need to make a faster computer. They need to make a better computer. Everyone bitches about performance, while I guarentee hardly any of your lives (business or pleasure) would change THAT much from a machine that runs a little fast. Apple needs to break ground with something huge. Like an optical computer. SO fast and far beyond anything out their now. The G4s are fine. They are getting faster. Waa hoo. Lets not waste time with small steps. Lets hope apple makes advances.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by MacManiac1224
I am a loyal Mac fan, but also a Stock market specialist. I have recently been reading about Intel and AMD, and the new chips that are coming out. I think there may ba a problem for Apple. I am hearing reports from various soruces throughout the net saying Apple is not going to release the G5 in MWNY, well, they better do something, becasue AMD is going to release thier Hammer Chip in the Summer, and Intel is going to release thier new McKinley chip this summer also. I only say that if Apple wants to get into the server market, they better have something bigger and better then Intel and AMD to compete. Also in the Pro market: I highly doubt the G4 will be able to take on the Hammer and the McKinley, even in Graphics, So Apple better do something.

What do you guys think?

no big deal, really

apple does not need to get into the "suffering" server market anymore than they need to get into making a digital camera...networking these days really sucks in the valley and no one is willing to stick their neck out in this concept...remember the fiasco with fiber optic and the billions lost there...and microsoft (king of networking) pulled way back on their windows 2000 implementation and stayed with having their technicians (like me) continue to support nt 4.0 in the "real" world...novell and cisco, can you say e-n-r-o-n

i think the imac will carry the company for some time, but a new g5 will be very welcome when it comes

as for the stock market, that is your specialty and not mine and i hope the stock value is not too tied into the g5 and mwny

[Grokgod]

Well I have been patient, Hey goes.

Mcrain : Stated that he was researching why people like macs so much. That should be SO obvious, who likes ugly things?
Your betray your motives with this method.
You seek the justification of your actions by following the opinions of others, so that you can feel secure in buying a Mac. This is an example of why you first bought a Pcee in the first place. And why many others have, its the herd mentality!

People that have bought the Mac did so because they wanted a unit that fits their needs and works. They didnt seek out justification by watching others. This is an obvious character flaw.

SO obviously you have been exposed to Mac's and are merely confused.
The numbers of iMacs sold, proves that there is exposure!

Allow me to unconfuse you. ;)

Drop the comparisions tween Pcees and Mac!
The only relative comparision is tween available hardware and what Apple should use.
You said that you didnt want to buy a machine that was more expensive and over a gigahertz slower than Wintel.

Unless you can extrapolate for yourself the obvious different natures of the machines which are beyond these limiting scopes.
There is no amount of cajoling that will ease the unrest in your mind. As you attempt to veer away from the masses of addle minded businessmen that have made the Wintel machine so generically attractive, to the sheared sheep of the land.

Wintels only advantage is user base-period!
Micro$ software is crap, bloated, ugly and boring, much like your missives. I have no idea why you site Micro$ as an advantage in software, this is perhaps your sad attempt at humor.

Your concept of OSX on a Wintel box is infantile, I won't address it because I am trying to be civil!

You say that your sick of windows and would switch in a heartbeat. You gives reasons as to why you are holding back.
- cost: Buy a lower unit or look at the cost differences taking into consideration the DVD-r and the far superior OS.
- Solid Info: Stop the useless comparisions. Osx is totally different and will mature into a global open source OS instead of the invasive privacy intruding big brother bloated clip art of an os that is Windows! Its a matter of mature understanding of the nature tween the two from a philosophical perspective. There are things more important than how fast something claims to go. Better to understand the context of where it is going! ( ohhh i like that one@!)

As rastalin stated OSX does things WIntel cant no matter how much speed you throw at it.

To touch upon the title of this thread~

Many things seem to be happening, sadly not good.

Imacs have been delayed, I fear that this will cause new users to cancell units. Tho the claim shipped units, I have yet to get any info on the arrival of my unit.

There have been strange problems with the new dual powermacs.
Strange video problems that hundreds of people have been posting on the apple site and have been ignored by Apple.
This is bad news and could relate to the imacs not shipping because of firmware problems.
I cant understand why Apple would take such an unwise stance with users at this time of crucial import. To show that they ignore users is the last thing that they should want to do! It is very simple to address the issue and say that they are working on it.
The treatment that these people have received has been ridiculous.

As far as I can tell its Apple's costumer service policy that will be its undoing. Job's has got to prove that his company will stand by their products. There has to be a way to get this point across to Apple! Any ideas?

[jenkij]

What's all this Apple following Stuff? Here's a couple more apple firsts for those that may be to young to know.

First to run MS Word
First to Run MS Excel
First to be able to run both of the above apps at the same time
First with mouse
First with SCSI
First to be able to print spreadsheet graphs on paper
First to be able to paste a graph into a range on a spreadsheet
First with 3 1/2 " floppy
First with No Floppy
First to support hard drives beyond (I think it was 32 meg).
First to address memory beyond 64K

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by jenkij
What's all this Apple following Stuff? Here's a couple more apple firsts for those that may be to young to know.

First to run MS Word
First to Run MS Excel
First to be able to run both of the above apps at the same time
First with mouse
First with SCSI
First to be able to print spreadsheet graphs on paper
First to be able to paste a graph into a range on a spreadsheet
First with 3 1/2 " floppy
First with No Floppy
First to support hard drives beyond (I think it was 32 meg).
First to address memory beyond 64K

very true on a historical perspective but look at today's consumer and their lust for speed

amd - first to hit 1 ghz
intel - first to hit 2 ghz
amd - first to hit 1.3 ghz on laptop benching the same as a 1.5 ghz desktop
ashton digital - first to market a pc laptop with a pentium 4 which goes between 1.5 ghz and 2.0 ghz

and who do you think will hit 3 ghz in desktops and laptops...not apple

these are just numbers, but simple ones that the average consumer goes for

of course, for the better computing experience, apple is it and has been it ever since the beginning

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Grokgod
Mcrain : Stated that he was researching why people like macs so much. That should be SO obvious, who likes ugly things?
Your betray your motives with this method.
You seek the justification of your actions by following the opinions of others, so that you can feel secure in buying a Mac. This is an example of why you first bought a Pcee in the first place. And why many others have, its the herd mentality!

People that have bought the Mac did so because they wanted a unit that fits their needs and works. They didnt seek out justification by watching others. This is an obvious character flaw.

...

Drop the comparisions tween Pcees and Mac!
The only relative comparision is tween available hardware and what Apple should use.
You said that you didnt want to buy a machine that was more expensive and over a gigahertz slower than Wintel.

...

Your concept of OSX on a Wintel box is infantile, I won't address it because I am trying to be civil!

...

- Solid Info: Stop the useless comparisions. Osx is totally different and will mature into a global open source OS instead of the invasive privacy intruding big brother bloated clip art of an os that is Windows! Its a matter of mature understanding of the nature tween the two from a philosophical perspective. There are things more important than how fast something claims to go. Better to understand the context of where it is going! ( ohhh i like that one@!)

...

Many things seem to be happening, sadly not good.

Well, well, well. I'm surprised, quite surprised. I bought a PC at a time when Apple was selling gumdrops that maxed out at speeds that were ludicriously slow. Lots of little girls liked the cutsy colors, but I was looking for something a little more appropriate for business meetings and court. In addition, apple's stability at the time was no better than PC's.

Now, rather than following any herd, I'm researching to determine whether apple is a better machine. I hear and listen to Mac users make claims about how superior the mac is, however, some claims should be easily supportable. Others require use with a machine.

I have had the opportunity to use G4 towers, G4 TiBooks, and a G3 iBook, and am thoroughly impressed with the usability and features offered on those computers. I also like the look and feel of the OS better than anything offered by M$.

That being said, I also hear and listen to lots and lots of Mac users on these threads that bitch and moan about how apple needs this, or needs that. In fact, this thread starts with a mac person suggesting that mac could be in trouble if it doesn't do something soon. So, instead of blindly following the heard of lemmings over the cliff, I continue my research to determine whether buying an apple (a machine I think is nicer) is a mistake.

As for OSX on a wintel box being a silly idea, sure, OSX on a wintel box wouldn't be as good and would make all the high and mighty mac users feel betrayed, but if it increased apple's market share from 4% to >10% would that necessarily be a bad thing?

Apple has several issues to overcome if it hopes to convince a large portion of current PC users to buy apple. That's a fact of life. I've "seen the light," and to suggest that it is wrong to assist others to see the light by making software and hardware available is, as you would say, infantile.

Here I am, a current PC user who is beginning to embrase apple and its products, and what do I get? Beraded. Good thing you don't work for apple's PR department.

[Grokgod]

Nice gumdrop story but i fail to see the signifigance to anything.
Are you saying that the 5% PERCENT gumdrop purchases was the herd and you went the other way?

SLow gumdrops, thats called all day suckers! :) Or jawbreakers

Slow compared to what again? Speed has to be related to the operating system that the unit is running. I never had a gumdrop so I dont know how it ran OS9.

I dont think that people are moaning or anything in a negative manner, i think that this is a board where thought is jotted down for conversations sake. That may sometimes take its form with some emotional content, since we are humans here.
We all feel very strongly about the future of Apple.
You have to look at the point of origin of the action to understand.

This isnt the Pcee worlds where Bitchin, really is that!
Here it is something totally different, we are all involved with Apple and the machines that they create. We see an opportunity now to create true prosperity for the Mac and we want it to work!

Again OSX on an wintel box will not increase Apple's share it would DEcrease it. Since they run on Wintel boxes and not MAc's!
Its that simple.

I never said it was wrong to show customers the software and hardware of Mac's. I said it was being done everyday, remember you said that you have had the opportunity to use the G4, Ti, G3.
Thats the exposure that has led you to the choice you now face. It has also lead thousands of others to the same choice.
So, there is exposure and there is opportunity for all.

Is it as good as it should be, well thats the challenge of business isnt it. Is Appple doing a good job? I say yes considering your desire to switch and the current iMac sales.

I dont think that I am attempting to abuse you in any way. Merely bringing you into the Mac fold, sadly there will be a difficult period as you are deprogrammed from the Wintel dogma and return to the human race! :) Little human humor there.

I think that the most important reason to switch to Mac's really hasnt been addressed properly and thats the moral issue.

OSX is open source, think about what that really means.
I realize that in the Pcee world there is NO such thing but
this means, in a blunt way. Power to the people!

M$ new XP is extremely invasive and controlling!
OSX is the new paradigm and it is the ethical choice and needs to be supported by those who understands such things.

The internet represents the new frontier of freedom and M$ needs to be rejected and an open source to empower the people needs to be embraced! There is much more to OSX than what is seen in a speed or price comparision.
It is a moral and intellectual desicion made by people that recognize this.
This is the war of our generation for our freedom!

Hell , i should work for Apple's PR cause i would sell a lot of boxes.

I am telling you to buy an Mac!

It is the only choice for an intelligent person and that is why you have come to this crossroad! Yes, i am calling you intelligent! :)

Leave behind your indecision and rest your mind in the warmth that you have contributed to the correct ethical choice. Speed and costs are not the issue!
Embrace the new OSX and get on the band wagon as we demand more from Apple to get this thing in gear as we move into a new generation of computing that leaves behind the days of Gates and his weak willed artistically empty vision of a computing world dominated by his control and mediocrity!

Hell, his company even stated that they may be forced to pull Xp from the shelves if the courts continue to force them to comply in manner that they find abusive.

Imagine M$ is actually threatening our court system to withdraw their demands. If that show you the truth, nothing will.

Imagine working your Wintel box at its new 25% market share. LOL

Was that good, or am i deluded?
Vote now!

[Jookbox]

Originally posted by jenkij
What's all this Apple following Stuff? Here's a couple more apple firsts for those that may be to young to know.

First to run MS Word
First to Run MS Excel
First to be able to run both of the above apps at the same time
First with mouse
First with SCSI
First to be able to print spreadsheet graphs on paper
First to be able to paste a graph into a range on a spreadsheet
First with 3 1/2 " floppy
First with No Floppy
First to support hard drives beyond (I think it was 32 meg).
First to address memory beyond 64K

notice how all these 'firsts' took place in the 80's except for the 'first with no floppy' but i don't consider that a technical achievement. anyone can build a pc without a floppy ever since win 98 was bootable from cd.

[jenkij]

Originally posted by Jookbox


notice how all these 'firsts' took place in the 80's except for the 'first with no floppy' but i don't consider that a technical achievement. anyone can build a pc without a floppy ever since win 98 was bootable from cd.


Good argument but I didn't say that all of the firsts happened in the 80's did I? IE:"Here's a couple more apple firsts".

[mcrain]

Nice argument and point well taken Grok.

Only thing is that you argue that OSX is open source and should be embraced. A truly open source OS wouldn't be machine spacific. Sure, I can go out and see the code and then play with it, but it won't run on a x86 machine.

For OSX to be truly embraceable, and truly have the spunk to kick W$ out of its position, OSX will have to have multiple versions that will run on old apples, new apples, PC's, PC servers, and it will have to be able to communicate with older versions of windose, linux and OS's from apple.

Windose XP is a piece of sh**. The registration and tracking is enough to make me puke. More than anything, it's windose theft of my information that makes me want to try apple or linux.

Oh, that reminds me. My exposure to macs came because I happen to have a friend who has all three. I had to drive 6.5 hours to see him and his computers. As for retail exposure, there is none near here. The nearest apple store is 3-4 hours away. The nearest CompUSA is almost 3 hours away, and I'm in a state capital! Apple doesn't have nearly enough retail exposure.

All I can say is I really like apples. I really want to like apples. In addition, I really want apples to be better than PC's. Finally, I want apples to sell more than W$ pc's.

Oh, and I want a Tibook with one of the new mobile G4's with teh better power and heat management, or even better, a ti with a G5! That, and a G5 tower would be nice. Throw those in the passenger seat of the Porsche that I want and all will be well.

M

[sturm375]

Originally posted by Grokgod

I think that the most important reason to switch to Mac's really hasnt been addressed properly and thats the moral issue.

OSX is open source, think about what that really means.
I realize that in the Pcee world there is NO such thing but
this means, in a blunt way. Power to the people!

M$ new XP is extremely invasive and controlling!
OSX is the new paradigm and it is the ethical choice and needs to be supported by those who understands such things.

The internet represents the new frontier of freedom and M$ needs to be rejected and an open source to empower the people needs to be embraced! There is much more to OSX than what is seen in a speed or price comparision.
It is a moral and intellectual desicion made by people that recognize this.
This is the war of our generation for our freedom!

Ethics and Morals! Apple is a hardware company that, Oh! by the way happens to make it's own OS, that only runs on it's hardware. Let me put it bluntly, the OS may be Open Source, but it isn't the money maker, hardware is. Don't tout Morals until Apple quits it's monoplistic nature as well. That's right, I called Apple a monopoly. Just try to buy a Mac with an operating system other than Mac OS X or 9. You can't, unless you buy it second hand.

Let's Compare:

Microsoft: We make an OS. We don't produce substantial hardware, just mice and keyboards. Our OS will run on 90% of the new machines out there, not quite as good as Linux, but pretty darn good. We don't release our Kernal, but do provide many "hooks" so 3rd party vendors can produce software that interacts with the OS. Since we can't possible test all the hardware out there, we provide a "signiture" procedure that a company can go through to ensure thier hardware will work in our OS.

Apple: We make hardware, and an OS, that only runs on our hardware. Before OS X, you had to pry knowlege of our "hooks" from our cold dead hands. Also we are proud to claim that only a handful of other OSs will run our hardware, we tried to make in zero, but those pesky Linux people just had to fiddle and reverse engineer a solution, Damn! We know our customer base well enough that we don't have to make substatial leaps in product, because if you want to use photoshop, or any other Adobe product efficiently, we are your only choice. Oh, by the way we are a member of the plaitifs against Microsoft's anti-trust lawsuit. We don't think it was fair of MS to give IE away for free thus destroying competing browser buisness. Meanwhile don't you like our freebies: iTunes, iDVD, iMovie. We graciously bought out the companies that developed those applications, gave them away for free, and now they are nearly the only ones available on a Mac. Just makes me smile.


That is my take on the whole thing, I don't trust the morals of either company. As a matter of fact, long before Enron, I didn't trust the morals of any corporation. Also as a matter of record, I currently own 3 computers: Self-built Linux box, Self-Built Win2K, and G4 Titanium 500

[arn]

Originally posted by Jookbox


notice how all these 'firsts' took place in the 80's except for the 'first with no floppy' but i don't consider that a technical achievement. anyone can build a pc without a floppy ever since win 98 was bootable from cd.

First PDA....1993
First Consumer Digital Camera...1994

http://www.macrumors.com/images/applefirststxt.jpg

arn

[nigel_t]

Everybody go to the beach, save your pennies and relaxxxxx.
believe me, relaxxxx !!!!!!!!!!!!

just save your money, I repeat SAVE YOUR MONEY !!!!SAVE YOUR MONEY !!!!!

nigel::cool:

[Grokgod]

Sturm has a good point, one that I have had issue with also.

I had to play a few head games in my brain to be ok with that reality.
I think that both companys have to right to compete in the market by lawful ways and that both make a product that they want to retain control of, in some manner. Also that control may be needed in certain aspects to create stabile machines, I mean look at all the driver and hardware issues on W$ units.

I dont understand what you are getting at when you say that the OS is open source but the hardware is the money maker.
Yes thats true, thats my point the OS is open source, Of course the hardware is the money maker! This is a capiltalistic structure and thats how Apple makes their money. I dont have a problem with Mac making money, do you?

I dont really expect to see Mac's with the abiltiy to run other OS's.
Because there arent that many Os's out there, and if there were, there would have to be software written for it. It was bad enough waiting for photoshop for OSX. I mean comeon!
I dont want to buy a mac with another operating system on it and no appz. I have been into BEos and others. Been there, done that. I was talking about functioning OSes with appz, that can be used in the work place, that has certain needs to plug into the already setup infrastructure of graphic houses, etc!

You dont call all the design creations of Apple, leaps?
I certainly do! Every hear of the Bauhaus Art philosophy?
It speaks of the need for design to fill our daily lives in everyday functional ways. A beautiful concept from the early 40's that has become the flag of Apple's concepts. Read up on it, its an interesting concept.

Jesus , who isnt in a huddle against M$.
Apple and anyone that can stand up is, including our court system.

I can understand that neither companys are holy and free of manipulation. The nature of big business is very agressive.
Yet, I have to choose and this is about choice, what I am supporting with my money. Of the 2, I choose Apple, if for no other reason that the OS is open source! That means alot!
Yes, they make money on their hardware. Duh~! Of course

Mcrain~
I dont understand why OSX has to be on other machines to be truly open source? The os works and is open which allows others to modify etc. The hardware is relative only in the fact that there is one supply. Which enables the machine to be created with a certain amount of stability. I dont like the hodgepodge of W$ parts. Besides if you wanted to make changes to a MAC. Merely use the board and CPU and stick the rest, Hd etc into it.
THere are lots of places that you can buy an old mac G4 or G3 and rebuild it and create a box. Then get all the exposure you want to it. As much as you would have gotten by buying a PC with osx on it. FOr less money!

I live in a very small town called Ashland , we dont even have a computer store here! I mean nothing, no Pcees no macs, no accessories, NOTHING. Looked online for the products, drove to San Fransico and tried one out. It was fun, sometimes you have to go across the street to find something out. Not everything comes to your door. There is plenty of exposure even if you have to meet it in the middle, its worth the adventure.

Apples are better than Pcees, there isnt any doubt.
They will improve even more and when they take over,we will all be in trouble cause Apple will become the next evil tyrant! :)

I think by writing this post , I have finally understood what others have been saying all along.
Apple is doing great and we should all be enjoying it. Cause when or if they get bigger or too big, it will be all downhill.
Hopefully the open source will keep it real!

[sturm375]

My point was that Apple can afford to make their OS open source, as that isn't what they make their money with. They pretty much give it away, with the purchase of a computer. Go to any computer store that sells Apple, and just ask for a copy of OS X upgrade, it free! Microsoft on the other hand has the OS, that is their money maker. They can't make their product Open Source.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by arn


First PDA....1993
First Consumer Digital Camera...1994

http://www.macrumors.com/images/applefirststxt.jpg

arn

before their time, but big inventions for sure

[lordsinforge]

Ok, this is where I remind some and inform others of a fact that I'm surprised no one else has mentioned. The Open Sorce portion of the mac OS X is called Darwin (not to be confused with the darwin streaming server)

That's point one.

point two:

Dawin is multi platform....

yes it's true, it runs on modern Macs, "old world" macs and pc's. It could run on anything if the right people put their minds to it. PDF's, cells you name it, just have to get it to work.

Now it may not have the fancy UI of OS X, but it will run the markedly similar x-windows manager windowmaker (it was based on the NEXT UI, as is OS X).

And point 3:

If you go to a site like gnu.org (the behemoth of the open source community) you will see that open sorce software need not run in more than 1 os, often they do not (heck often they don't even fully run in 1 os ;) In reality what makes software open source is the ability for anyone to download the source code, alter it as they see fit, and then distribute the change. Such a change can be as simple as changing a single variable or porting the entire software package to run on a different OS / hardware type.

sorry if I rambeled a bit, it's late...

so that's my 2 coppers. Enjoy.

[Grokgod]

Well there you go, Darwin is open to all platforms!

Thanks you very much Lords in forge!

Apples previous OS wasnt open source and this one is, thats a big difference. I dont think they made it open so that they could give it away.

Anyone have anything to say about the current rumors that there will be NO changes at the tokyo dates!

Looks like nothing is going to happen on the Mac platform for QUite a while..:(

[lordsinforge]

<quote>
Thanks you very much Lords in forge!
</quote>

Accually its Lord Sinforge rather than Lords in Forge. Its the name of my bnet (diablo and diablo2) account. And when I get around to programming some somewhat useful software it will be "distributed" (likely as freeware) as either "SinForge Software" or Sinforge Software" I haven't decided which, any votes for which I should use?

Enjoy,

Lord Sin (D1 nickname) :)

[PCUser]

There seems to be a misunderstanding. Apple's OS isn't open source.

"My point was that Apple can afford to make their OS open source, as that isn't what they make their money with. They pretty much give it away, with the purchase of a computer. Go to any computer store that sells Apple, and just ask for a copy of OS X upgrade, it free! Microsoft on the other hand has the OS, that is their money maker. They can't make their product Open Source."

The portion of MacOS X that is open is the kernel. The core of the OS. Which is based on FreeBSD. Which you can already get free for a PC.

The parts that make MacOS X what you think of as MacOS X, Quartz, Cocoa, Carbon, QuickTime, Aqua, etc, AREN'T open source. The API set is NOT open source.

The kernel is the process-switcher, the task organizer. It's the guy who coordiantes how things run. Everything beyond the process-switching, the API's, the graphics functions, EVERYTHING, is closed-source.

The reason Darwin is open source is to have a large amount of testing done on it. Apple's OS is not Open Source. Just their kernel.


"Now it may not have the fancy UI of OS X, but it will run the markedly similar x-windows manager windowmaker"

XWindows is the entire API set that makes *nix have a GUI. XWindows is akin to Cocoa, Carbon, Quartz, OpenGL, etc. So, running the window manager "windowmaker" means you run XWindows. Which means you are just running a modified FreeBSD with X.

[sturm375]

Darwin is not the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but calling Darwin the OS, is like calling Windows 3.1 an OS. It's a GUI for the actual OS. Just as a previous message said, you don't have to run Darwin, you can run a version of X-Windows, thus something is running underneath. That is the OS, at least by the textbook definition of an OS.

By the way, my mind is blanker than normal, what is the name of the "Kernal" of the OS X? With all the code names floating around: Darwin, Quartz, etc..., I can't keep track.

[PCUser]

According to Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

"Darwin" is the kernel. It's open source.

"Quartz", OpenGL, QuickTime are the graphics API on the next "tier". Cocoa, Carbon, and Classic are the GUI API's on the next "tier". And then Aqua is the top-level "tier", the UI.

(On the PC side: FreeBSD, Linux, etc, are kernels. XWindows is the API "tier" above that - which includes OpenGL and GUI API's. And then the "window managers" are what stand on top of XWindows - GNOME, KDE, WindowMaker, etc.)

An "OS" includes a kernel, API's, the UI, filesystem(s), and the basic hardware interfaces necessary to allow programs to run. So Apple's "OS", MacOS X, is a LOT more then "Darwin". Simply because you can run the kernel (Darwin) and the XWindows API and a window manager (windowmaker) on top of that doesn't mean you're running MacOS X.

[jefhatfield]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PCUser
[B]There seems to be a misunderstanding. Apple's OS isn't open source.

"My point was that Apple can afford to make their OS open source, as that isn't what they make their money with. They pretty much give it away, with the purchase of a computer. Go to any computer store that sells Apple, and just ask for a copy of OS X upgrade, it free! Microsoft on the other hand has the OS, that is their money maker. They can't make their product Open Source."

he he...i applied for this "company" hidden by a nude beach in southern silicon valley, when microsoft was getting spanked by uncle sam and was unable to go after pirateers, that open sourced windows and most likely went to redmond and stole the stuff

...in theory they were right in wanting to bring computing to everybody and bring "their" version of windows to the public for a fraction of the cost, but i did not feel a robin hood calling in me

the boss was this guy right out of "gone in 60 seconds" or "boiler room" and i suspected they might have even been federal agaents...i wonder where they are today


:p

[Taft]

Originally posted by PCUser
According to Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

"Darwin" is the kernel. It's open source.


Not that I'm really disagreeing with you, PCUser, but Drawin is really much more than a kernel. Calling Darwin a kernel is like calling a linux distribution (minus an xwindows server) a kernel.

Darwin consists of practically every part of the OS below in the graphical level (ie, below Quartz, Aqua, etc.)

This includes all of the *nix utilities and processes required to make a modern operating system run. cp, ps, the virtual memory sub-system, devices, etc, etc.

Darwin includes a kernel, but is really much, much more.

Go to www.darwin.org and look at all of the projects currently going on there. There is a lot of work happening on Darwin.

Matthew

[Grokgod]

Isnt the point here that you can use the Kernal whatever it is called and write appz for it and put the API calls on to it and you have an app that everyone has access to also.
And all the development tools are for free!

Yes, Apple cn afford to make OSX open source and i think thats the point, that it is open source, whatever is the reasoning, it nonetheless IS! People have been screaming for such a thing for decades!

Yea, you can get it freeBSD for the pc but there isnt any appz for it. THere isnt the link to productivity or the great API that is Aqua or the great Apple brand. There are a LOT of Linux heads sweating at the thought of all that is to come with this new OSX. The surface has yet to be even scratched. I think that in the future you will see why this is a really big thing. Not to be underplayed.

[PCUser]

I stand corrected. I just looked into it again, and you are correct, "Darwin" is more then just the kernel.

However, I did make sure to check that my original point is correct. "Darwin" doesn't include the API's most people associate with MacOS X (such as Cocoa, Carbon, Classic, Quartx, QuickTime, etc, etc), but it does include more then just the Mach 3.0 kernel.

BTW, does "Darwin" include more then one console (ie, bash, tsch, etc)? I can't seem to find that on Apple's site.

[Taft]

Originally posted by PCUser

BTW, does "Darwin" include more then one console (ie, bash, tsch, etc)? I can't seem to find that on Apple's site.

Darwin includes just about everything that exists under OS X under the GUI level. Nearly everything under the /usr, /etc, /var, /bin, and /sbin directories in OS X exist under Darwin. So, yes, there are other shells.

And if you don't get them with the default Darwin distribution, you can download them. Go get Fink (fink.sourceforge.net) and you can use it to download just about all open source projects available for Darwin/OS X (except for some GUI quirks for X windows, they are pretty much the same thing).

You can even download XFree86 for Darwin and run it just like a Linux/FreeBSD machine. Unfortunately, I don't think Gnome or KDE run under Darwin yet. In time...

Matthew

[nigel_t]

Does every one realize that apple is clearing its stock.
there are givaways on almost every product.

As I said before:
Everybody relax.
You shall soon be rewarded!!!!:cool:

[Grokgod]

What in the world are you talking about, I went to the apple site not a single thing has been added, changed or offer as a giveaway! There is the discount on Lcd's but that has been there for ages!

Come on man, what are you so optimistic on?
Be a little more specific, you said giveaways on almost every product, and there isnt one.

Please correct me with some details.

Hope your not talking about the Nikon or the Adobe sheesh that would be lame. Hardly a give away.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by rekras
Dont get me wrong I'd like to see the g5 out as much as the next guy, but i cant help but kinda feel bad for apple. sure amd and intel can get fast chips out there all the time, because that's what they do. that is what they're company is entirely based on, chips. apple on the other hand has to deal with consumer desktops, laptops, pro desktops and laptops, iprograms, digital devices, wireless technology and devices, prosoftware, operating systems, and last but not least chips (i know motorolla makes the chips, but it still has a ton to do with apple). that is a ********* of things to deal with, and im sure i forgot some. and will all those things, all of u b*tch that u need faster mhz. i cant wait until the day when chips are so ridiculusly fast that it wont matter anymore what mhz they are. then u will all see what apple has done for us with they're innovation and hard work.

BTW- the guys who use g4s in kernels do not choose macs for the mhz, they use them for the velocity engine, energy efficiency, and stable operating system.

the woz seems to think that the speed issue will top out and no longer be a major buying issue

then we can only look at features...good!

[Grokgod]

I think that it may be true that the speed issue will top out at some point but that is mainly for Pcees right now.
Pcees go really fast, too fast and crash for the average users use.

Yet Mac's still have a new OS to contend with and the performance ratio of CPU power to the needs of the OS are not being met. I think that when this next leap onto the g5 or better system buses etc is met, hopefully the Mac will have the same ability to forget about speed and forcus on other issues, not htat they dont right now.

I heard rumors that the G5 was delayed until the year 2003.
ANyone else hear something about this?

[jefhatfield]

don't you think the late released g5 is conceivable?

the dual g4 seems to rock right now, and scale it up to 1.3 ghz then you can rock the world

but a g5 this year would be nice:)

[AmbitiousLemon]

heres my lil ol opinion on the whole speed will drop out:

it can happen in the short term. i a new chip comes out works its way through machines (from pro to consumers) it runs the OS well and the only apps that need more are professional app. i think it is conceivable. (by short term in mean a year to three)

but in the longer term software developers will always be asking for more from the hardware. and it starts in two places : games, Operating systems.

we are in a very funny place with apple right now, not even the top machine out there can run the os. the first thing i did when i got my hands on a dual ghz was open a window in ie and resize it... jumping and slow. about the same speed as the imac sitting right next to it (this was in the store, later i did my own test). i think the os is the main reason we are all hungry for speed right now, we want a machine that can run osx without jummpyness.

games are the other issue. games are the number one thing consumers do that tax their cpu. and as good as the current games are now, if you give me 20 minutes with a game i can come up with a dozen ways to make it better that will make it need more cpu power. games can always use more speed, and when they get it they make a better game. beta testers get told this all the time, "we could make your changes but then we would have to raise the minimum requirements so that most people couldnt use the game." i think the first death toll on any consumer machine is when you put that cd in and press install and it tells you your machine doesnt meet those minimum requirements.

i suppose if we talk way long term i could conceive of a time when speed wasnt an issue for the consumer. quantum computers anyone? or maybe not even that drastic, if simply the next advancement in chips is too expensive to put in a consuymer machine and the machines get topped out for a while. but i dont think any of those are likely to happen in our grandchildren's life time so im not worried.

i do thinkk that as soon as apple can get osx running smorrthly on all of their computer models you wont hear most people complaining anymore and begging for the next greatest thing to come out soon.

[jefhatfield]

when i first started out as a techie, my boss told me that games drive the whole friggin high tech industry because gamers are the ones first to push the envelope

i am not a gamer but it is amazing how many "adults" buy that software at the gaming store in the mall

[the_fugitive]

Apple must start improving their game. Obviously I am a loyal Mac fan, but I really believe that Apple may be in a a lot of trouble very soon.

Last week, I went into my local Apple Centre, and there is no stock in there! A sign outside boasted that the new iMacs were inside, but when I walked in no computer were there. I asked where the new G4s were, but they told me they had sold out there stock. They asked me if I wanted to look at their iBook or PowerBook range.

If Apple can only supply notebooks, I really think that they shouldn't bother with desktops.

[AmbitiousLemon]

apple does seem to be suffering from a serious supply problem right now but i think this is a temporary problem not any sort of trend. im sure it is something that people at apple are sweating over, but i hope they nip it in the bud and learn from the problem so it never happens again.

i would definitely have bought one of the new imacs last week had they been in stock. i had had a bad week, but gotten through it and walked to the store on a whim thinking i might reward myself. if it had been there i would have walked home with it. but they werent there so i had time to think i realized it wasnt worth the $1600 for a computer with a small screen a slow optical drive and an os that didnt run much better than my current machine.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
apple does seem to be suffering from a serious supply problem right now

i would definitely have bought one of the new imacs last week had they been in stock.

I'm a PC user who was about to switch to Mac and couldn't find one in stock anywhere within several hours distance. I called all over the place. Since I couldn't find one, I started checking the net, and with all the hubbub about new chips and speed problems with OSX, I've decided to wait it out and see what happens with the MW's.

I'll probably still buy a mac, but I'm definately waiting. Unfortunately, thate are a lot of PC users who will see the dell ads, and well, dude, their getting a dell.

Funny, I knew I wasn't the only one mad that apple was having trouble with stocking machines. Build them and they will come!

[AmbitiousLemon]

if you can afford to wait right now i think its a very good idea for the buyer. apple is in an odd place right now. the os doesnt quite have all the spit and polish there yet and we seem to be a stones throw distance from a LOT of revolutionary new hardware. if you can wait 9 months for a g5 i think thats the best decision.

since i knew i was going to be waiting for awhile for the g5 i thought a cheap lil imac would hold me over... but no impulse buys.

mcrain if you can in anyway get your hands on an imac to play with i would suggest you do it. im a very picky person, and if you need a computer to hold you over i think the imac is perfect. it will be a solid machine for years to come and the speed may not bother you as it bothers me (there are a lot of people who are happy with osx on their 233 g3s!). its mostly personal preference. sounds like you have already done quite a bit of searching though. but keep an eye out for one anyway. playing with it might make you think the 3 week waitlist isnt so bad.

[mischief]

It's being dumped into the employee sales channel en masse and on the cheap. MWTK will see a new Tibook and probably a new LCD.:D

[Grokgod]

Your always saying that, i think you said something like that about the Ti in another thread, But you never back it up with anything, not even a reason how you came to this conclusion.

I am dying for a 1 ghz Ti book and when you say these I get sooo
uhh peeved, what are you talking about?
Dumped enmass ? where , how and why.

Puhlease, elaborate...

what employee sales channel are you talking about?

Any news on the speed bump?

[mischief]

Apple has an internal pricelist for employees. When a product is within a month of rev it shows up as a spike in the # of available units on that pricelist. Many of these units are custom builds that were built but the order got bumped to the next rev so Apple sells them to employees cheap.

If I told you who my source was I'd lose a friendship and they'd lose a job. I don't ask for data I just report as little as I can without getting anyone fired.

I've only said this today.I only found out on thursday.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Grokgod
Your always saying that, i think you said something like that about the Ti in another thread, But you never back it up with anything, not even a reason how you came to this conclusion.

I am dying for a 1 ghz Ti book and when you say these I get sooo
uhh peeved, what are you talking about?
Dumped enmass ? where , how and why.

Puhlease, elaborate...

what employee sales channel are you talking about?

Any news on the speed bump?

ibook got the 14 inch,

imac is with flat panel,

powermac is dual 1 gigahertz,

naturally, tibook is next, right?:D

[Rower_CPU]

Yes, I think that Apple should do something quickly about the shortages in its product lines, but look at it this way: Either they got screwed over by parts suppliers, or the demand has way exceeded their expectations.

Either way, it looks to me like a company that is growing rapidly and finding new customers at a rate even greater than in Steve's wet-dreams!

Can you say "larger market share"? :D

[Grokgod]

If Apple cant ship imac units to all those Pcee converts then they are going to cancell.

I ordered an imac when it first came out and havent gotten it yet!

I got an email from Apple last week saying that they were going to ship within 5 days. That was a week ago, still now sign of an email that tells me that I have 10 shipping days before i receive it!

Pcee people do not stand for this kind of business they cancell!

Also Apple told me in the Email that I could cancel at any time for a prompt refund!
Whats up with that, I never asked for a refund.

Another example of Apple shooting themselves in the foot!