Well the christian right won one thing... [Archive]

Sun Baked

Nov 9, 2006, 05:32 PM

Yeah, well walmart lost big time in the states where the minimum wage was increased. Many of those states tied the MW to inflation as well. If Pelosi carries through with her first 100 hours pledge, then there's a good chance that walmart's profits will dive.

Only if she can get in the tax hike, which may not happen.

But, the fight against outsourcing to China is bound to happen. Of course those new factory jobs will be a lot like a Wal-Mart job. :(

Edit: All the more reason to say Merry Christmas and Happy New McJob.

rickvanr

Nov 9, 2006, 05:34 PM

I don't have a problem with someone saying Merry Christmas to me, as I celebrate Christmas. I do however see how non-christian people could get upset at this time of year with a couple other large religious holidays in the same season.

When someone wishes me a Happy Holiday it feels as if they are saying Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

So personally, Happy Holidays is a win-win in my books. It should keep everyone happy.

zimv20

Nov 9, 2006, 05:38 PM

Happy Holidays is a win-win in my books. It should keep everyone happy.
not the oppressed, christian minority, apparently.

eva01

Nov 9, 2006, 05:42 PM

People can say Happy "insert holiday" to me and i could care less. Someone can say "Happy Kwanza" and I will just respond with "Happy Kwanza" even if i don't practice it. Doesn't bother me at all.

Now I may just have fun if i go to walmart and if they say Merry Christmas, I will just say "Happy "insert other holiday""

CorvusCamenarum

Nov 9, 2006, 05:44 PM

I challenge anyone who takes issue with "Merry Christmas" on non-religious grounds (i.e. you're Jewish and celebrate Hanukkah et al) to give any and all of their presents back this year.

miniConvert

Nov 9, 2006, 05:47 PM

Merry Christmas is just fine by me. We've had some attempts to quash it in the UK too but they've been largely unsuccessful (Winterval).

So long as everyone is free to wish people a happy/merry (whatever) and aren't forced to recognise any particular religious event then I can't see the problem. I'm not religious, but at Christmas, which I celebrate because, well, yeah, why make excuses?

Sun Baked

Nov 9, 2006, 05:49 PM

Yes, Dr. Phil really made the anti-Christmas weenie seem like a psychotic scrooge. :D

eva01

Nov 9, 2006, 05:51 PM

I challenge anyone who takes issue with "Merry Christmas" on non-religious grounds (i.e. you're Jewish and celebrate Hanukkah et al) to give any and all of their presents back this year.

So you mean the presents they receive during Hanukkah?

Since if they celebrate Hanukkah they wouldn't celebrate christmas meaning they wouldn't receive christmas presents but would receive Hanukkah presents.

:confused:

Queso

Nov 9, 2006, 05:53 PM

They say Merry Christmas here in London, so why not in Wal-Mart? :confused:

CorvusCamenarum

Nov 9, 2006, 06:52 PM

So you mean the presents they receive during Hanukkah?

Since if they celebrate Hanukkah they wouldn't celebrate christmas meaning they wouldn't receive christmas presents but would receive Hanukkah presents.

:confused:

Sorry, thought I was being clear. I was referring to the self-righteous PC nazis and the like who throw a fit every time someone says Merry Christmas and claim it's trying to shove religion down their throats. The same people who claim not to celebrate Christmas because religion is bad, secular is best, yet have no trouble with taking the day off from work and getting gifts.

Don't panic

Nov 9, 2006, 07:14 PM

completely a non-issue.
they can say whatever they want.

this is not a win of the 'christian right', just of common sense.

(so we are back to a complete debacle for the fundies :cool: )

p.s.: oh, and Walmart supports the minimum wage hike as it increases the spending power of their core customers.

pseudobrit

Nov 9, 2006, 07:41 PM

Sorry, thought I was being clear. I was referring to the self-righteous PC nazis and the like who throw a fit every time someone says Merry Christmas and claim it's trying to shove religion down their throats. The same people who claim not to celebrate Christmas because religion is bad, secular is best, yet have no trouble with taking the day off from work and getting gifts.

Ever cross your mind that they claim not to celebrate Christmas because they're not Christian and that it's not religion they don't want shoved down their throats but the Christian religion?

Try to empathise. Imagine you're Christian and 90% of the country is Muslim. Now imagine being incessantly being wished a happy Eid ul-Fitr.

Now imagine being called a "self-righteous PC Nazi" just because you are uncomfortable with this.

PlaceofDis

Nov 9, 2006, 07:56 PM

Ever cross your mind that they claim not to celebrate Christmas because they're not Christian and that it's not religion they don't want shoved down their throats but the Christian religion?

Try to empathise. Imagine you're Christian and 90% of the country is Muslim. Now imagine being incessantly being wished a happy Eid ul-Fitr.

Now imagine being called a "self-righteous PC Nazi" just because you are uncomfortable with this.

thank you psuedobrit. couldn't have said it better myself.

IJ Reilly

Nov 9, 2006, 08:05 PM

Sorry, thought I was being clear. I was referring to the self-righteous PC nazis and the like who throw a fit every time someone says Merry Christmas and claim it's trying to shove religion down their throats. The same people who claim not to celebrate Christmas because religion is bad, secular is best, yet have no trouble with taking the day off from work and getting gifts.

So what about all the self-righteous PC nazis and the like who throw a fit whenever someone prefers to offer the more inclusive, non-religious holiday greeting?

Funny how this "PC nazi" stuff only goes the one way.

srf4real

Nov 9, 2006, 08:10 PM

Christmas is only a retail commercial event to bring out shoppers.

I'll say "happy Jesus' birthday!"

-if I have offended anyone by my faith, just remember Easter when yu'll get revenge.)

plinden

Nov 9, 2006, 08:15 PM

Try to empathise. Imagine you're Christian and 90% of the country is Muslim. Now imagine being incessantly being wished a happy Eid ul-Fitr.

I'm a atheist in a country that's 90+% Christian and I celebrate Christmas (i.e. take the week off and have a slap up meal and buy my family presents - I don't do any of the religious stuff though) and don't mind people wishing me "Merry Christmas".

If I lived in a 90% Muslim country I wouldn't mind being wished a happy Eid ul-Fitr.

Or being wished a happy Hanukkah in Israel.

I may think that religion is crock, that anyone who follows one is seriously deluded, and the world would be a much better place without it, but people celebrating religious holidays just doesn't bother me.

Must be because I'm European.

zap2

Nov 9, 2006, 08:19 PM

While I don't care(as I have xMas each year) the fact of it is xMas is SO far away from a religious hoilday. I have a friend who's family is Hindu, and in the past he has gotten a xMas tree. And each yeat he gets gifts for it. As I got older I've been gets gifts much earlier. This year I'll be gettting most stuff on the 19 of Nov.

Of course I can see why people wouldn't want this, in which case I'd say either ignore it, or make a point and yell "I'm not christian! why do you assume I am? Other non christians live in america too!! Open your eyes!!

Oblivious

Nov 9, 2006, 08:33 PM

yg17

Nov 9, 2006, 08:53 PM

I'm Atheist, coming from a Jewish family, that's why I have a problem with it. I don't want some douchebag just assuming I celebrate christmas just because he does.

Not only that, what about the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, etc, employees at Wal-Mart? Are they now forced to tell shoppers to have a merry christmas? I have no problem telling people to have a merry christmas when I KNOW they celebrate it. But as someone who doesn't celebrate it, I just can't say it to random people. I worked at Target for 4 holiday shopping seasons. Not once in those 4 times did I ever tell someone to have a merry christmas. Not once did my managers ever tell me to wish them a merry christmas. It was always happy holidays. We were fine with that, the customers were fine with that.

Nothing's wrong with Happy Holidays. That covers everyone out there. Yeah, it might upset the religious right, but thats too bad. We've given into "under god". We've given into "in god we trust". We've given in to nearly every other mention of god in our government. We've given into christmas being an officlal gov't holiday and Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan and all of the others being nothing. We've given into the gap between church and state getting smaller and smaller. Being an Atheist, Jew, Muslim, etc, in this country just sucks. All we want is to be able to go shopping without some self-righteous prick making minimum wage shoving it down our throats. Is that too much to ask?

And before anyone says it...There's no war on christmas, there's no discrimination against christians. When you're a 90%+ majority, there's no such thing as discrimination against you, you're the discriminators. That's like saying the Nazis were being discriminated against because the Jews didn't like them.

If I'm ever in a Wal-Mart, and they do wish me a merry christmas, I'm going to fire back with a happy Hannukah and see how they like it.

dornoforpyros

Nov 9, 2006, 09:12 PM

meh, even though I'm an atheist I have to say that I prefer merry christmas to the fence sitting "happy holidays" slogans.

I mean hell, if the majority of people in north america are christian (I'm taking a stab here, I don't know what the stats are), then no one should be worried about offending other religions with your celebrations. I mean if I go to a Muslim country I don't expect them to suppress their beliefs and practices on my account.

Don't panic

Nov 9, 2006, 09:14 PM

If I'm ever in a Wal-Mart, and they do wish me a merry christmas, I'm going to fire back with a happy Hannukah and see how they like it.

go ahead, see if anyone cares.

you are waaay overreacting to this.
I am not religious at all, and i agree there are important fights for freedom of and from religion.

this is not one of them.

get over it and have a happy christmas.

hulugu

Nov 9, 2006, 09:48 PM

"Although for some people there is also the celebration of the new year. So Christmas and the New Year are actually two holidays, so there is a plural, which in the English language necessitates the use of the letter 's.' Now I suppose you could say 'Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year' but you probably have ***** to do. So you shorten it to 'Happy Holidays!'"

:D

Nah. That can't be it. The average retail employee has plenty of time to say Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Bodhi Day, Happy Boxing Day...and have a Happy New Year.

Shortening this to Happy Holidays is obviously a liberal-atheist conspiracy designed to secularize Christmas. This is in response to Walmart's keen shepherding of the holiday with Christmas sales starting in November and running into January. After-all, the best way to protect Christmas is to profit massively.

That's what Jesus would have done.

it5five

Nov 10, 2006, 02:43 AM

I celebrate giftmas. Much better than lame Jesus christmas.

solvs

Nov 10, 2006, 04:04 AM

Freedom means getting to say Merry Christmas but having to hear Happy Holidays. The opposite is true too. I'm not saying they should be forced to say one over the other, but they should have a right to. This always has to be a thing for the "persecuted" majority, so I say just smile at the sentiment and let people say what they want to be (or at least appear) friendly. This Holiday is stressful enough on people, and there are better fights to make when it's about taking away rights of others, so I don't see why this is such a big deal.

I like saying Happy Solstice, but Happy Holidays seems to work the best without anybody looking at you funny.

takao

Nov 10, 2006, 05:19 AM

'Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year' but you probably have ***** to do. So you shorten it to 'Happy Holidays!'"

actually that's quite popular here, even though more in written form.. for example if you might not see somebody till the next year it's actually what you say

actually "marry christmas" is quite uncommonly said in retails stores unless it's christmas or really close

personally i find "happy holidays" much more ridiculous .. at least translated to german

Queso

Nov 10, 2006, 05:35 AM

sushi

Nov 10, 2006, 05:42 AM

sushi

Nov 10, 2006, 05:47 AM

I'm Atheist...

<snip>

If I'm ever in a Wal-Mart, and they do wish me a merry christmas, I'm going to fire back with a happy Hannukah and see how they like it.
If you are an Atheist, then why not reply back with "Happy Holidays?"

Personally, I think that you are over reacting to this.

takao

Nov 10, 2006, 08:44 AM

It's funny. From the posts above, it appears that what Americans consider to be "Godless" Europe doesn't really care about the word Christmas being used, whereas in God's Own Country the USA they get all uptight about it.

Says a lot about our respective societies IMO. Maybe if American Christians didn't spend so much time attempting to work their religion into federal law, those with different belief systems wouldn't mind the usage of Christian terms so much.

we had enough catholicism here so perhaps it's more because of the total dominance of that compared to the completely split up protestants in the US

i'm living in western austria too which is hardly known for it's big range of different religions anyways ... more people have a problem with americanization of christmas ...
like hanging up decoration earlier and earlier ..come on it's not even halfway through november ... i don't remember it being that earlier when i was younger...
Advent starts at 27. November _the earliest_ (unless you are orthodox) and was meant as time of peace

Mal

Nov 10, 2006, 09:19 AM

I don't get what the big deal is. I'm glad Walmart's realized that it's not a crime to say Merry Christmas and is allowing their greeters to say it to people again. It's Christmas for crying out loud! Don't they also have an Easter sale? That's far more specifically Christian than the Christmas celebration. It's not a matter of shoving anything down anyone's throats, it's a matter of accepting the fact that 90%+ of people in this country will be celebrating Christmas, and thus it's an acceptable assumption to tell someone Merry Christmas, and correct yourself if they say they celebrate something else.

And remember also, the "religious right" that you're blaming this on did one thing very right in this situation: they didn't go through the government to make this change. We didn't try to get this put into Federal law, as someone accused us of doing, it was merely a widespread boycott. Admittedly not hard with Walmart (they're not exactly the most appealing place to shop), but still, the power of the free market brought back the Christmas greeting, simply because Walmart realized it didn't gain them anything to act like they had a stick up their pi gu and refuse to acknowledge the religion of the majority of Americans.

jW

shecky

Nov 10, 2006, 09:43 AM

going into a walmart on a saturday afternoon in november or december (anytime, really) is like descending into hell itself. did it once, will never do it again. i look around at trashy, stupid people buying cheap crap (any why are the majority of the people who shop at a walmart overweight? what the hell?) and i can understand why some of the world hates america so much.

they can wish me a happy whatever they want, i won't be hearing it as i have no need to be in a walmart.

PlaceofDis

Nov 10, 2006, 09:56 AM

Maybe if American Christians didn't spend so much time attempting to work their religion into federal law, those with different belief systems wouldn't mind the usage of Christian terms so much.

indeed.

and really, if i hear someone at a store say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" its not going to bother me. what bothers me is that a major retail chain is telling their employees to say this and not leaving it up to their best judgement. a store supporting their sales by pandering to a certain majority is what bothers me.

crdean1

Nov 10, 2006, 10:18 AM

To the OP, what does the religious right have to do with this, and I'm sure you prefer to go to work on "Christmas" Day? I'm sure you would rather change it to "Holiday" Day.:confused:

freebooter

Nov 10, 2006, 10:39 AM

distraction

suggestion: move attention to more pressing issues

pdham

Nov 10, 2006, 10:39 AM

All we want is to be able to go shopping without some self-righteous prick making minimum wage shoving it down our throats. Is that too much to ask?

Do you realize how ridiculous it is to assume the minimum wage employee at Wal-Mart, who is being told to say "Merry Christmas" by his boss, is self-righteous, a prick, or trying to shove religion down your throat.

If you are at Wal-Mart and an employee who is working two jos to feed her kids says "Merry Christmas" because she will do anything to ensure she doesn't get fired, call her a self-righteous prick, I am sure it will make you feel alot better.

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 11:37 AM

get over it and have a happy christmas.

Is that mandatory?

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 11:39 AM

I am confused. What's wrong with saying "Merry Christmas"?

I'm confused. What's wrong with saying "happy holidays"?

sushi

Nov 10, 2006, 11:44 AM

I'm confused. What's wrong with saying "happy holidays"?
Please note, that my question was directed to the OP and not you.

But to answer your question, nothing.

But if Walmart wants to have their folks say "Merry Christmas" then more power to them. I see nothing wrong with it. No one is forcing anybody to shop at Walmart. If the greeting offends someone they can always shop somewhere else.

Personally I like Walmart and will enjoy the "Merry Christmas" greeting.

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 12:03 PM

Please note, that my question was directed to the OP and not you.

But to answer your question, nothing.

But if Walmart wants to have their folks say "Merry Christmas" then more power to them. I see nothing wrong with it. No one is forcing anybody to shop at Walmart. If the greeting offends someone they can always shop somewhere else.

Personally I like Walmart and will enjoy the "Merry Christmas" greeting.

Sorry, I didn't realize this was a private fight.

Why should Wal-Mart employees be compelled to say either one? Quite a number of people are expressing the notion that the more inclusive greeting is problematic somehow. I'm trying to get to the bottom of that question, but nobody on this side of the argument will say why allowing or asking Wal-Mart employees to utter the non-religious greeting is PC run amok, but requiring them to make religious noises is just right and proper.

atszyman

Nov 10, 2006, 12:04 PM

But if Walmart wants to have their folks say "Merry Christmas" then more power to them. I see nothing wrong with it. No one is forcing anybody to shop at Walmart. If the greeting offends someone they can always shop somewhere else.

I only have a problem with it if the employees are not given a choice. If they are requiring the employees to say "Merry Christmas" then I have a problem with it, if they are given the choice to say "Merry Christmas", "Happy Hanukkah", "Happy Holidays", or whatever then I'm fine but to require them to use only the Christian holiday should be considered discrimination based on religion.

I don't think my wife will enjoy shopping with me this year, luckily we don't shop together often so she won't have to be embarrassed when this exchange happens:

Them : Merry Christmas
Me : Happy Hanukkah
Them : Oh, I'm not Jewish
Me : What made you assume I'm Christian?

If the latter lines don't happen more power to them. But if they feel the need to correct me when I wish them a Joyous holiday that they don't celebrate, I will feel the need to question why they assume I celebrate their holiday. I celebrate Christmas but I also recognize that there are many people who don't so I make no assumptions and consider "Happy Holidays" to be the easiest/most inclusive method of getting holiday greetings across. I have no idea why so many people seem to believe that "Happy Holidays" is somehow an attack on Christmas, and Christians.

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 12:09 PM

I have no idea why so many people seem to believe that "Happy Holidays" is somehow an attack on Christmas, and Christians.

Exactly. And every year, it seems, we have to go through this exercise all over again. And who drums it up, year after year? Conservative Christians. And to what end?

That, I think, is the real question.

sushi

Nov 10, 2006, 12:22 PM

Why should Wal-Mart employees be compelled to say either one?
IMHO, a business has the right to dictate policies such as this. It is free enterprise, so those who work, shop or visit the store is purely optional and not mandated. Therefore, Walmart should be able to set it's policies such as this.

BTW, if a Jewish store owner, for example, wanted to have everyone that works there say the Jewish greeting, them more power to them. Meaning, if I am working at that store, then I will be expected to say the Jewish greeting vice the Christian greeting. Seems simple to me.

I am sorry, but I don't see what the big issue with Walmart employees being required to say "Merry Christmas."

On a side note, maybe because I have lived around the world and have experienced many different cultures this seems like a non issue to me. Heck, here in Japan, some stores have their folks say "Merry Christmas" when you enter. I would venture to say that a majority of the workers are not Christian in the stores that do this. Anyhow, other stores go with the traditional Japanese greeting. Either is fine with me. I just go with the flow as they say.

ozontheroad

Nov 10, 2006, 12:24 PM

people should learn to relax and get on with life.

what is the big deal ?

its a greeting, like it or not 25th December is xmas.

If someone says merry xmas to you during the xmas season they are not assuming anything, they are only being polite.

would you be offended if after you sneeze someone said "gesundheit" instead of "bess you" would you instantly think they assume you are German?

No, i didn't think so.

get on with life and stop nitpicking and dissecting words and greetings.

be happy... smile

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 12:27 PM

I am sorry, but I don't see what the big issue with Walmart employees being required to say "Merry Christmas."

I'm sorry, but I don't see what the big issue is with Wal-Mart employees being required to say "happy holidays."

I guess I'm going to have to keep asking this question until somebody answers it.

takao

Nov 10, 2006, 12:30 PM

I have no idea why so many people seem to believe that "Happy Holidays" is somehow an attack on Christmas, and Christians.

i don't see how "merry christmas" is an attack on people of other religions either

around here people are greeting each other with "Grüß Gott" (literally "Greet God" but "Grüßen" was meant more like "blessing") "Servus" (from latin: "Slave/Servant"), "Tschau" (the germanized writing of italian "ciao" which is coming from "schiavo" which is also italian for "Slave") and also in some parts of the country even "Heil"
luckily the political correctness police haven't found those obvious cases either

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 12:30 PM

get on with life and stop nitpicking and dissecting words and greetings.

All the "nitpicking and dissecting" is coming from people who object to a company choosing to say "happy holidays" to their customers instead of "merry Christmas."

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 12:33 PM

i don't see how "merry christmas" is an attack on people of other religions either

It isn't. But when a company decides that they want to be more inclusive but are forced to be less inclusive under pain of boycott by members of one religious group, then I think somebody's views are being attacked. Don't you?

sushi

Nov 10, 2006, 12:36 PM

All the "nitpicking and dissecting" is coming from people who object to a company choosing to say "happy holidays" to their customers instead of "merry Christmas."
Based upon what I read in the article that the OP linked, it looks like the opposite is true.

At Wal-Mart they used to say "Happy Holidays." Their products were holiday oriented instead of Christmas oriented.

However, this year they are changing everything to be Christmas oriented and to use the "Merry Christmas" greeting.

zimv20

Nov 10, 2006, 12:38 PM

i would like the walmart employees to spend the entire month of february wishing everyone a happy black history month.

ozontheroad

Nov 10, 2006, 12:41 PM

All the "nitpicking and dissecting" is coming from people who object to a company choosing to say "happy holidays" to their customers instead of "merry Christmas."

got it... either way people should relax and enjoy the Xmas Holidays

-------------------------------------------
Xmas Holidays

Merry X-Mas - Happy holidays
-------------------------------------------

if people keep this up the only accepted greeting will be something I'd expect an extraterrestrial to say: "greetings human"

IJ Reilly

Nov 10, 2006, 01:01 PM

Based upon what I read in the article that the OP linked, it looks like the opposite is true.

At Wal-Mart they used to say "Happy Holidays." Their products were holiday oriented instead of Christmas oriented.

However, this year they are changing everything to be Christmas oriented and to use the "Merry Christmas" greeting.

No, I think you've read it wrong. A few years ago Wal-Mart elected to go with the more inclusive language, but they (and other retailers who made similar business decisions) were hammered on by conservative Christian groups to change back to the religious theme. The only pressure in this sequence of events came from the Christian groups objecting to Wal-Mart going with a more secular and inclusive approach to the holiday season. I know many like to paint this as having happened in just the opposite way, but in reality Wal-Mart did not adopt the more secular approach under outside pressure. It was a business decision. The only thing they've done under pressure is go back to the more religious theme. The "PC" is all in one direction here -- just not in the direction we're suppose to immediately accept.

thedude110

Nov 10, 2006, 01:03 PM

Me : What made you assume I'm Christian?

Precisely the problem. The presumption of Christianity is not a distant step from the unspoken imposition of Christianity. "Merry Christmas" establishes a norm and places you either within that norm or outside of it. In this context, if you're not Christian it seems like you're in a worse position than if you're a member of a "fringe group."

If I'm ever in a Wal-Mart, and they do wish me a merry christmas, I'm going to fire back with a happy Hannukah and see how they like it.

I'm just not going to go to Wal-Mart. And if I have to go to Wal-Mart, I think I'll probably say something like "I got over Christianity. But you have a nice day, too."

It's political correctness gone mad, utterly ****ing mad.

This is at least the third time I've seen you post a phrase like this. Care to substantiate the position? Or perhaps provide a definition of "political correctness?" Do you really believe language does not actively (and passively) empower and disempower members of/groups within a society?

iBookG4user

Nov 10, 2006, 01:05 PM

Good for Wal-Mart, hopefully other stores will follow. I will support Wal-Mart more because of this.

freeny

Nov 10, 2006, 01:17 PM

Why cant they just say "Welcome to Wal-Mart"?

zimv20

Nov 10, 2006, 01:20 PM

Why cant they just say "Welcome to Wal-Mart"?
it's too inclusive.

pseudobrit

Nov 10, 2006, 05:20 PM

Why cant they just say "Welcome to Wal-Mart"?

Obviously not everyone is welcome. But everyone must be merry on the surrogate solstice feast day.

solvs

Nov 10, 2006, 08:28 PM

It's the requiring part that bugs me. Why can't they just tell their people to give nice greetings and leave it at that? Then, when they say Happy Holidays, Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan, Solstice, "insert meaningless greeting here", no one can bitch. I can see how atheists (or those of other religions) can get bent out of shape at what they see as a Christian majority trying to further push their agendas on them, but it's just someone with a crappy job trying to (or pretending to) be nice for the Holiday season. Same with Christians, they're just trying to be nice to people who aren't you. Doesn't hurt you in any way for someone to say something other than Merry Christmas.

If Walmart decides to make it a company policy one way or the other, it's kind of discriminating for customers and employees. Happy Holidays was a nice, inclusive compromise, but apparently some didn't think that was good enough, so it's their way or the highway. As it seemed to be coming from their base, they caved.

If they just make it up to the employee, it's just some person at a store giving you a pleasantry while you stress out about other stuff.

Macmaniac

Nov 10, 2006, 11:02 PM

I work in retail during the holidays and I must say I wish people a Merry Christmas not because its a religous thing in my mind, its all about saying thank you. Especially during the holidays if the customer is plesant and friendly why not wish them a Merry Christmas, I view it as more of saying that wishes good cheer during the holiday season. I don't think I would try to say something else, its not like I am going to look at the person and assume what religion they are, ie oh he looks jewish etc...

LethalWolfe

Nov 11, 2006, 04:03 AM

http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/09/news/companies/walmart_christmas/index.htm?postversion=2006110909

And I plan to tell any walmart employee who says "Merry Christmas" to me to piss right off.
Wonderful disposition you have there. And people wonder why so many retail employees cop attitudes.

Ever cross your mind that they claim not to celebrate Christmas because they're not Christian and that it's not religion they don't want shoved down their throats but the Christian religion?

Try to empathise. Imagine you're Christian and 90% of the country is Muslim. Now imagine being incessantly being wished a happy Eid ul-Fitr.

Now imagine being called a "self-righteous PC Nazi" just because you are uncomfortable with this.
I'm not Jewish but I live in a very Orthodox Jew part of Los Angeles and I have no problems when I'm wished well on Jewish holidays. If a complete stranger is trying to be nice or courteous to me in passing I don't see why I should take offense. I just smile, nod my head politely and say thank you in return.

I'm really not sure why people make a big deal out of this.

If you lived in a foreign country would you be pissed that the people there would "incessantly" be speaking to you in their native tongue and not yours?

Lethal

leekohler

Nov 11, 2006, 04:09 AM

Good lord, do we really have nothing more important to talk about than this? I really don't care who says what. Let's move on- nothing to see here.

ozontheroad

Nov 11, 2006, 04:28 AM

Precisely the problem. The presumption of Christianity is not a distant step from the unspoken imposition of Christianity. "Merry Christmas" establishes a norm and places you either within that norm or outside of it. In this context, if you're not Christian it seems like you're in a worse position than if you're a member of a "fringe group."

I'm just not going to go to Wal-Mart. And if I have to go to Wal-Mart, I think I'll probably say something like "I got over Christianity. But you have a nice day, too."

This is at least the third time I've seen you post a phrase like this. Care to substantiate the position? Or perhaps provide a definition of "political correctness?" Do you really believe language does not actively (and passively) empower and disempower members of/groups within a society?
you are taking this a little to far human

like it or not Xmas is a holiday and if another human welcomes you with a season inspired greeting it is no more that that "a greeting"

it is political correctness to the extreme if you are offended by something like this.

you need to concentrate more on living than on the "empowerment" given by words. I would understand your point if we were talking about insults but not when the problem is a greeting corresponding to the holiday season in question.

chill out human dude.

hulugu

Nov 11, 2006, 04:30 AM

Good lord, do we really have nothing more important to talk about than this? I really don't care who says what. Let's move on- nothing to see here.

It's actually an interesting argument. There's the inclusion or exclusion inherent in language, the ability of the 'Religious Right' to enforce sacred ideals on a secular institution, retail employees, government.

It still strikes me as strange that the inclusive and efficient 'Happy Holidays' became an issue in the first place. Furthermore, since speech typically spirals into the 'laziest' formations, I would expect such a shift to happen in the language.
That some Christians saw this as an assualt on their faith is paranoid at best. What is it about modern-day Christianity that cannot survive without the support of the entire country's secular institutions? Early Christian faith thrived as its followers were fed to lions in the Roman Colusseum, and yet modern American Christianity would apparently collapse if a busy Walmart greeter blurts out the wrong greeting.
This is, of course, ignoring that up until recently, Christmas was one of the least important holidays in Christianity taking a back-seat to Lent and Easter, which actually celebrated the central tenet of the religion. Or, that Christmas is centered around a Pagan holiday and contains numerous borrowed symbols.

Requiring greeters to announce the specific holiday is silly when Happy Holidays works so well. I will, of course, pay little attention to what busy retail employees say, since it's meaningless, rote, and part of their jobs.

takao

Nov 11, 2006, 07:29 AM

the thing is that if you start renaming everything just "to make it more inclusive" (why does everything _have_ to be inclusive ?) you end up with stuff like "freedom fries" and renaming "Frankfurter" to "Hot Dog"

it's like the discussion in german about making the language more "gender focused" which is only done to jobs etc. which are positively used and never for negatively used words which is of course double standards

takao

Nov 11, 2006, 07:45 AM

It isn't. But when a company decides that they want to be more inclusive but are forced to be less inclusive under pain of boycott by members of one religious group, then I think somebody's views are being attacked. Don't you?

andy why switched they to "happy holidays" ? because very likely they were forced by some group group which were offended _in the first place_

i doubt walmart changed to "happy holidays" out of the blue without complaints coming in beforehand ...
that the "religious right" get the blame for everything is ridiculous

seriously i'm hardly known as being religious (or conservative) but this is just annoying ... how about blaming the people who made "merry christmas" an issue first ... i'm pretty sure it weren't the christians

skunk

Nov 11, 2006, 07:52 AM

This is, of course, ignoring that up until recently, Christmas was one of the least important holidays in Christianity taking a back-seat to Lent and Easter, which actually celebrated the central tenet of the religion. Or, that Christmas is centered around a Pagan holiday and contains numerous borrowed symbols.As is Easter, of course....

pseudobrit

Nov 11, 2006, 08:04 AM

If you lived in a foreign country would you be pissed that the people there would "incessantly" be speaking to you in their native tongue and not yours?

Religion and language: is there a difference?

pseudobrit

Nov 11, 2006, 08:09 AM

it is political correctness to the extreme if you are offended by something like this.

That's not the point.

The more relevant point is that religious nutters are offended by something inclusive and generic like "happy holidays" because it doesn't specifically favor their dogma.

thedude110

Nov 11, 2006, 10:16 AM

it is political correctness to the extreme if you are offended by something like this.

you need to concentrate more on living than on the "empowerment" given by words.

Would you define "war on terror" as politically correct?

ozontheroad

Nov 11, 2006, 11:45 AM

Would you define "war on terror" as politically correct?

i would define it as a country or group of countries using military action to fight terrorist organizations and states that openly support or finance them.

i do not give any thought whatsoever to what society considers politically correct or not.

i only wish that people could learn to live with each other without getting caught up in the literal definition of a word used to address them. unless of course its an insult.

thedude110

Nov 11, 2006, 12:10 PM

i would define it as a country or group of countries using military action to fight terrorist organizations and states that openly support or finance them.

The phrase, not the action. Would you define the phrase "the war on terror" as "politically correct?"

I'm essentially challenging:

you need to concentrate more on living than on the "empowerment" given by words.

as I would argue that our day to day reality (living) is significantly defined by the language we use to understand it.

IJ Reilly

Nov 11, 2006, 12:19 PM

andy why switched they to "happy holidays" ? because very likely they were forced by some group group which were offended _in the first place_

No, there's no evidence for this of any kind. Over the past few years, a number of U.S. retailers, recognizing that they were marketing to more than one religious group at this time of year, and people with no religion at all, changed to the more generic approach. All the pressure to change back to the more religious one came from conservative Christians. This is the single salient fact that nobody in the "chill out, dude" crowd will acknowledge, let alone discuss. This is peculiar since it is pretty much the only fact in this situation that is actually relevant.

ozontheroad

Nov 11, 2006, 12:30 PM

The phrase, not the action. Would you define the phrase "the war on terror" as "politically correct?"

I'm essentially challenging:

i assume that you have read my post and if so would have realized where I stand.

however since you've asked i would have to say no, I see nothing wrong with the phrase "the war on terror" (its a slogan)

as I would argue that our day to day reality (living) is significantly defined by the language we use to understand it.

true, however... common sense should be applied.

we do not spend our entire life learning so that we can spend most of it rejecting and objecting to words/frases that have no real weight or significance.

KingYaba

Nov 11, 2006, 02:19 PM

Don't like it? Don't support it. :)

Wal-Mart tried to organize their employees to vote against Dems.
Uh huh :rolleyes:

hulugu

Nov 11, 2006, 07:12 PM

No, there's no evidence for this of any kind. Over the past few years, a number of U.S. retailers, recognizing that they were marketing to more than one religious group at this time of year, and people with no religion at all, changed to the more generic approach. All the pressure to change back to the more religious one came from conservative Christians. This is the single salient fact that nobody in the "chill out, dude" crowd will acknowledge, let alone discuss. This is peculiar since it is pretty much the only fact in this situation that is actually relevant.

I agree, the conservative Christians feigned 'offense' at this rather undramatic, and I believe, inevitable change.

LethalWolfe

Nov 11, 2006, 08:36 PM

Religion and language: is there a difference?
Not in the basis of the arguments I'm seeing in this thread. What would you say to a Christian living in Israel and bitching about all the Jews incessantly using traditional Jewish greetings? I mean, can't all the Jews just realize on sight that the customer in their store is Christian and address them w/tradional Christian greetings? And what's w/all the bowing in Japan? If I go to Japan people should obviously greet me in traditional western ways. As an American in Japan if someone bows to me I'm going to tell them to piss right off.

No, there's no evidence for this of any kind. Over the past few years, a number of U.S. retailers, recognizing that they were marketing to more than one religious group at this time of year, and people with no religion at all, changed to the more generic approach. All the pressure to change back to the more religious one came from conservative Christians. This is the single salient fact that nobody in the "chill out, dude" crowd will acknowledge, let alone discuss. This is peculiar since it is pretty much the only fact in this situation that is actually relevant.
I think it's fringe groups/extreme individuals that are waging a war on seasonal greetings. Most people don't see a problem w/"Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christams" until convinces them they should have a problem with it. I also don't think it's as one sided as you make it out to be.

If retailers didn't fear they were offending people by saying "Merry Christmas" then they wouldn't change their policies. Here's an older article on the subject and people mention everything from fear of lawsuits to wanting to be more inclusive as reasons for picking holiday greetings, Link. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-21-holidaysuit_x.htm)

Lethal

Stampyhead

Nov 12, 2006, 02:07 AM

If I'm ever in a Wal-Mart, and they do wish me a merry christmas, I'm going to fire back with a happy Hannukah and see how they like it.
Wow, that will sure show them. Those poor employees won't know how to handle such quick-wittedness. Why don't you just grow up and knock that chip off your shoulder? I think that would be a better course of action for someone who is older than 5.

Blue Velvet

Nov 12, 2006, 05:14 AM

Just as a side-note: I'm designing the corporate Christmas card as I write which is emphatically non-religious.

Is it spelled:

Season's Greetings (with the apostrophe or...)
Seasons Greetings (without)

I would have thought the first but just wanted to run it past the grammar experts on MR first. :)

But so we're not entirely off-topic the Archbishop of York has waded into the a similar battle on this side of the Atlantic

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1945955,00.html

The Archbishop of York has criticised the 'systematic erosion' of Christianity in British public life.
Dr John Sentamu (pictured below), who is the second only to the Archbishop of Canterbury, spoke out about the official government Christmas cards that wish 'Season's Greetings' and what he called 'Wintervalitis' where local authorities shy away from celebrating Christmas in case it offends people of other faiths.

Queso

Nov 12, 2006, 05:34 AM

Is it spelled:

Season's Greetings (with the apostrophe or...)
Seasons Greetings (without)
It these situations I always rephrase the sentence to see which makes sense. "The Greetings of the Season" makes more sense than "The Greetings of the Seasons", so re-arranging it back I would say the apostrophe stays.

But so we're not entirely off-topic the Archbishop of York has waded into the a similar battle on this side of the Atlantic

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1945955,00.html
Yeah, but a Christian bishop saying it is one thing. A retail store is quite another.

solvs

Nov 12, 2006, 05:41 AM

This is peculiar since it is pretty much the only fact in this situation that is actually relevant.

So we're basically saying Walmart decided to be more inclusive by saying the nonoffensive Happy Holidays, but religious extremists became offended saying it was an affront to their religion and politically correctness gone awry, so they complained about this attack on Christmas and their religion, which is dominant in this society (meaning there should be some sort of preference toward them and to ignore everyone else) and now Walmart is caving to them, knowing where their bread and butter comes from, requiring their employees to say the exclusive one instead of the inclusive one or leaving it up to them, which non-Christians see as the religious right trying to force their beliefs down everyone else's throats for some reason?

I think I'm changing my vote from get over it, it's no big deal to disappointed in people pretending to religious.

solvs

Nov 12, 2006, 05:50 AM

Season's Greetings (with the apostrophe or...)
Seasons Greetings (without)

Seasons' Greetings. Just to mess with people. Seriously, if anyone really cares, you should just smack them if they say anything then start talking about all the starving children in Africa who can't afford Christmas and the soldiers who couldn't be home for the holidays. :p

That'll shut 'em up. ;)

Sdashiki

Nov 12, 2006, 10:30 AM

get over it and have a happy christmas.

best.

quote.

ever.

as it makes the most sense here, in this thread.

:cool:

pseudobrit

Nov 12, 2006, 10:36 AM

Not in the basis of the arguments I'm seeing in this thread. What would you say to a Christian living in Israel and bitching about all the Jews incessantly using traditional Jewish greetings? I mean, can't all the Jews just realize on sight that the customer in their store is Christian and address them w/tradional Christian greetings? And what's w/all the bowing in Japan? If I go to Japan people should obviously greet me in traditional western ways. As an American in Japan if someone bows to me I'm going to tell them to piss right off.

I see a difference between cultural customs, language and religious dogma. I also see America as a secular nation with no official religion.

I cannot understand why an inclusive greeting is offensive, and how an exclusive one is comparable to language.

pseudobrit

Nov 12, 2006, 10:37 AM

best.

quote.

ever.

as it makes the most sense here, in this thread.

:cool:

What about "get over it and have some happy holidays?"

zimv20

Nov 12, 2006, 12:04 PM

Season's Greetings (with the apostrophe or...)
Seasons Greetings (without)
oi, i'd never thought about that. hmmmmm.....

the one without the punctuation looks correct to me. i'm thinking along the lines of the pluralization of attorney general. due to the multipliclity of the season, we get seasons. and then you're offering more than the single greeting, so that gets a plural, too.

now that i've argued it, it's probably "season's".

IJ Reilly

Nov 12, 2006, 12:32 PM

I think it's fringe groups/extreme individuals that are waging a war on seasonal greetings. Most people don't see a problem w/"Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christams" until convinces them they should have a problem with it. I also don't think it's as one sided as you make it out to be.

If retailers didn't fear they were offending people by saying "Merry Christmas" then they wouldn't change their policies. Here's an older article on the subject and people mention everything from fear of lawsuits to wanting to be more inclusive as reasons for picking holiday greetings, Link. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-21-holidaysuit_x.htm)

The article you cite proves my point and disproves yours. All of the lawsuits mentioned are about the use of religious symbols on public properties, which is an entirely different matter, as you well know. There's no evidence to suggest that anyone pressured these retailers to drop references to Christmas in this article or anywhere else I've ever seen. Absolutely zero. The retailers did it voluntarily. It was a business decision, just as retailers who advertise in Spanish do it not to avoid offending people who speak Spanish, but to market to people who speak Spanish. All of the pressure on these retailers to alter the words they use is on the other side of the equation -- every last bit of it. This is so completely evident and deliberate, I can't honestly fathom why you think it's even a debatable point.

IJ Reilly

Nov 12, 2006, 12:44 PM

So we're basically saying Walmart decided to be more inclusive by saying the nonoffensive Happy Holidays, but religious extremists became offended saying it was an affront to their religion and politically correctness gone awry, so they complained about this attack on Christmas and their religion, which is dominant in this society (meaning there should be some sort of preference toward them and to ignore everyone else) and now Walmart is caving to them, knowing where their bread and butter comes from, requiring their employees to say the exclusive one instead of the inclusive one or leaving it up to them, which non-Christians see as the religious right trying to force their beliefs down everyone else's throats for some reason?

I'm not sure I completely followed all of that. But just to be clear, I find no evidence that retailers such as Wal-Mart started to use the more inclusive language to avoid offending anyone. They're in the business to move merchandise, and recognizing that the U.S. is a diverse country, and not everyone who enters a Wal-Mart store during the holidays is there to shop for Christmas, they began using the less specific marketing language to promote that end. Their minds on what was good for business was changed under threat of boycott by Christian groups. We should keep in mind that not everyone is friendly to reality that the U.S. is a culturally diverse country.

solvs

Nov 13, 2006, 05:48 AM

I'm not sure I completely followed all of that.

It's ok, I don't think I know what I was saying either.

Pretty sure I'm agreeing with you though.

Macnoviz

Nov 13, 2006, 11:46 AM

Does it really matter that much what people say?

IJ Reilly

Nov 13, 2006, 12:23 PM

Does it really matter that much what people say?

Not if you say it doesn't.

Kingsly

Nov 13, 2006, 12:33 PM

I see no problem with people saying Merry Christmas.

Me either. Because thats what it is, its Christmas FFS. Don't like it? Well it can be just a normal Monday for you.

It's political correctness gone mad, utterly ****ing mad.

Anyway, Merry Christmas yg17. :)
Thank you very much!!!

atszyman

Nov 13, 2006, 12:59 PM

Me either. Because thats what it is, its Christmas FFS. Don't like it? Well it can be just a normal Monday for you.

It's political correctness gone mad, utterly ****ing mad.

Anyway, Merry Christmas yg17. :)

I never had a problem hearing "Merry Christmas", "Happy Hanukkah", or "Happy Holidays", until "Happy Holidays" became an assault on Christains.

Can someone, anyone, explain to me why "Happy Holidays" somehow became anti-Christian? I never thought about the issue until it started making the news and it always seemed to be the religious right calling it a "War on Christmas" which completely baffled me.

I think employers should leave the choice of greeting completely up to the employee. Let the cashier decide to say "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays", "Thank You" or whatever else they want to say. Why acknowledgment of a particular holiday is required I will never understand. Is their faith so weak that a cashier not recognizing Christmas is going to cause them to become an atheist? If their faith is that fragile they have bigger problems than holiday greetings.

solvs

Nov 14, 2006, 03:20 AM

Does it really matter that much what people say?

It shouldn't, but that seems to be the problem. On both sides. But definitely worse on 1 side. Kinda reminds me of the gay thing. 1 side just wants to be themselves and left alone, the other wants to force their beliefs on everyone else.

Happy Holidays was nice and inclusive, which should have worked for anybody. Being allowed to say Merry Christmas should be fine too. But being forced to say Merry Christmas because one group says so doesn't seem right to me either.

Mal

Nov 14, 2006, 09:42 AM

Of course they should have the choice, and this is just an example of Wal-mart going to the opposite extreme, but it started with them refusing to allow their employees to say it and striking the term Christmas from their products. They got the products right, putting it on 60% or so (if I'm remembering the article correctly), and just went a little overboard trying to please those who protested. I didn't stop going to Walmart, or Target, or the other stores that did that, but I wasn't happy with the decisions to remove Christmas from everything simply because it's an indication of the dual standards that are found in the world with regards to Christianity vs other religions.

jW

bowens

Nov 14, 2006, 10:12 AM

Happy Festivus!

atszyman

Nov 14, 2006, 10:48 AM

Happy Festivus!

Finally a holiday greeting I can really agree with...

I think Walmart should force their employees to use that one...

IJ Reilly

Nov 14, 2006, 10:57 AM