U.S. vetoes U.N. resolution condemning Israel

[clevin]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15669013/
UNITED NATIONS - The United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council draft resolution Saturday that sought to condemn an Israeli military offensive in the Gaza Strip and demand Israeli troops pull out the territory.

U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said the Arab-backed draft resolution was “biased against Israel and politically motivated.”

“This resolution does not display an evenhanded characterization of the recent events in Gaza, nor does it advance the cause of Israeli-Palestinian peace to which we aspire and for which we are working assiduously,” he told the Security Council.
with this attitude, arabic people hardly has reason to NOT against US+isreal.

[Compile 'em all]

Geez, I wonder if the US would still Veto if we substitute "israel" for "the arabs" :rolleyes:.

[zimv20]

wtf was the UN doing in pushing for this vote? the veto can't be a surprise, and bolton won't be around forever. at least with a new rep, there'd be a chance. or am i just kidding myself?

[mkrishnan]

Grrr, I hate it when actions taken in international politics are biased and politically motivated!!! :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

[Dont Hurt Me]

Perhaps they should have left Israel alone, Its the same old story,attack Israel then cry when you get your Butt kicked. Leave them alone and they will leave alone the Arab,Muslims and others. Why doesnt the U.N. pass something on the ones who started this one? Hezbolla & Iran started this but lets blame Israel. I dont blame Israel for going after the ones shooting rockets at civilians. Leave Israel alone & live in peace........to much to ask?

[Sayhey]

wtf was the UN doing in pushing for this vote? the veto can't be a surprise, and bolton won't be around forever. at least with a new rep, there'd be a chance. or am i just kidding myself?

zim, I don't think Bolton decides which way to vote on these things, they are set by administration policy. He only makes it worse with his belligerent tone towards any nation which disagrees with the US.

I not sure how the architects of this policy can believe that defending Israel's position, which includes the murder of 19 innocents at Beit Hanoun through indiscriminate shelling, can help win any support in the Arab world. My guess is that the US policy-makers have decided the best way to win Arab and Muslim friends is through killing the ones who disagree.

I wonder why we are losing? :rolleyes:

[skunk]

Perhaps they should have left Israel aloneUm, Israel is occupying Palestinian lands. Who should leave whom alone? Would you?

[skunk]

zim, I don't think Bolton decides which way to vote on these things, they are set by administration policyIf you can call it "policy".

[Dont Hurt Me]

Um, Israel is occupying Palestinian lands. Who should leave whom alone? Would you?And we are occupying Indian lands, you take that route you can go back forever plus didnt God give them those lands a few thousand years ago? Anyways somebody is allways using the Jews for an excuse, Saddam,Hitler,Iran,Egypt,Syria,. I wonder who these guys would hate if there wasnt a Israel? Woman? The moon?

[gekko513]

wtf was the UN doing in pushing for this vote? the veto can't be a surprise, and bolton won't be around forever. at least with a new rep, there'd be a chance. or am i just kidding myself?
So when the majority of the world's governments, through the UN, obviously thinks Israel is in the wrong here, you ask why the ******* do they push for this vote.

In many cases regarding Israel, the only country to speak of that agree with Israel's policy is the USA. Does that not make you stop and think for a second that the others might just have a point?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Again if they werent kidnapping soldiers, not lobbing rockets into Israel non of this would have occured. You going to start something you better be prepared for the consequence. What are U.N resolutions for anyways except for P.R.? Its all for show.

[clevin]

israel has a bunch of arabic prisoners in their prison for decades, does it count as "governmental kidnapping"?
the creation of israel in middle east was a mistake at first place, and the continuing bloodshed will not produce anything.
Clinton said that israel-palestine relationship is the cause of half of problems in middle-east, which is accurate and totally true, as long as the state of Palestine couldnt be established, the problem won't be resolved. Pushing for a democratic election while denouncing the result of democratic election produced a perfect trap that has no way out, this is ridiculous.

[Compile 'em all]

Again if they werent kidnapping soldiers, not lobbing rockets into Israel non of this would have occured. You going to start something you better be prepared for the consequence. What are U.N resolutions for anyways except for P.R.? Its all for show.

Do you think that the Palestinians Kidnap Soldiers just for Having fun? Do you think that Palestinians blow themselves up for sheer entertainment?. They are doing so because the Israelis made the Palestinians' lives so ********** miserable. For years, Palestinians have been harassed, their homes destroyed, thrown into prisons (still going on BTW). I find it really funny that the whole media catches up when a couple of "Soldiers" are kidnapped, but when 7-members of the same Palestinian family are slaughtered on a beach you hear nothing but silence.

[bemylover]

The UN Security Council has become a place where its members trade resolutions against their enemies with each other. US did not agree to that resolution the same way as Russia and China would veto anything against Iran or North Korea unless they are offered something in return.

How do you think US could pass the last resolution against NK(after those tested their nuke)? For that US agreed to pass an EXTREMELY unjust (http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2371545), Russian prepared, resolution against US ally Georgia.

[obeygiant]

Um, Israel is occupying Palestinian lands. Who should leave whom alone? Would you?

You should study up on the history of Israel a little more. the palestinians should leave israel alone.

[skunk]

You should study up on the history of Israel a little more.Oh I have, both ancient and modern. Perhaps you should read a few reports about conditions in Gaza and the curiously-named "OCCUPIED TERRITORIES".

[mdntcallr]

wtf was the UN doing in pushing for this vote? the veto can't be a surprise, and bolton won't be around forever. at least with a new rep, there'd be a chance. or am i just kidding myself?

The reason is Arab League has decided to lay groundwork as Israel is the villian.


No matter the history of Israel/Palistine area. The arabs want western world to ignore that they were shipping massive amounts of Arms into the area. like they did before with Lebanon.

They were putting weapons to stage attacks on Israel from gaza area. Then they didnt like the defensive measures Israel was taking.

this whole situation is very loaded and things arent what they seem.

Israel, a place i have never been to, is a place where they have true democracy, individual freedom. Hell there was even a gay parade yearly.

try and see that in any of the nations attacking them. you won't!

[skunk]

No matter the history of Israel/Palistine area.You cannot ignore the history, much as you'd like to.

[zimv20]

So when the majority of the world's governments, through the UN, obviously thinks Israel is in the wrong here, you ask why the ******* do they push for this vote.

In many cases regarding Israel, the only country to speak of that agree with Israel's policy is the USA. Does that not make you stop and think for a second that the others might just have a point?
i'm not saying that the UN is being useless, i'm saying they might have delayed the vote until bolton was replaced, with the hope that the US might not veto.

sayhey is probably correct that, so long as bush is making policy, it doesn't matter who's wearing the suit. but the UN can't know that for certain, whereas they could be certain that the US would veto as they did.

i do leave room for the situation where, knowing a veto would come, the UN is making a point. and that point has indeed not escaped me, intended or not.

[gekko513]

Oh, right... I got you completely wrong then. I assume now that Bolton is a republican that will be replaced because of the recent election? I just didn't get the last half of your post since I didn't know who this Bolton guy was (even though it says in the article :o).

I suppose the UN had to push for the vote now because it's about condemning the attacks that happened recently. I suppose atrocities have to be condemned as they happen.

[zimv20]

I assume now that Bolton is a republican that will be replaced because of the recent election?
he's the US representative to the UN, but he was never confirmed by the US senate. the democrats successfully filibustered bolton's nomination, so bush installed bolton via a recess appointment sometime in 2005.

bush knows the democrat-controlled senate would never confirm him, so this week bush started pushing for the lame duck senate to do so. but he got resistance from republican lincoln chafee, who lost his re-election bid last week. i think that was a stand-up think for chafee to do.

so, it's not because he's a republican that bolton will be replaced, but because he's the wrong man for the job and the dems won't confirm him. bush and the senate will have to work together to find someone who will pass muster.

[obeygiant]

You cannot ignore the history, much as you'd like to.

The people of palistine sure are.

[miloblithe]

The people of palistine sure are.

Do you have actual thought-out points to make or do you just like to lob grenades?

[toontra]

There's wrong on both sides, but Israel does itself no favours when it litters the south of Lebanon with tens of thousands of cluster bombs in the 2-3 days prior to it's withdrawal in the summer. Acts such as these are war crimes IMO, out of any proportion by way of response to the home-made, almost entirely off-target rockets fired into Israel. Both tactics are aimed at de-stabilising civilian populations - the cost in terms of lives/injuries is probably in the region of 100:1. The fact that cluster bombs are currently in line to be banned shows the international disgust for their use in this way.

BTW, interesting to note that Israel's "friends" the US are also one of the few countries opposed to banning cluster bombs - LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6140530.stm)

[solvs]

Do you have actual thought-out points to make or do you just like to lob grenades?

You must be new here. ;)

[toontra]

An revealing statistic about this summer's war in a BBC online article today:

"The war killed more than 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, and 157 Israelis, mostly soldiers."

[srf4real]

It's all propaganda - those 'innocents' were gearing up their suicide bombs and harboring killers in their midst.

coming soon to a town near you... BOOM!

It sucks that these extremists have families who must also pay the price for these men's political/religious/social views, but otherwise it is my family who must pay the price. And my credo is love and tolerance to all - unless you are threatening MY family, then my credo is die m#^$%f*&%

[skunk]

It's all propaganda - those 'innocents' were gearing up their suicide bombs and harboring killers in their midst.First of all, those innocents lived there. So did many of the Hezbollah fighters. What do you mean by "harbouring"?

It sucks that these extremists have families who must also pay the price for these men's political/religious/social views, but otherwise it is my family who must pay the price. And my credo is love and tolerance to all - unless you are threatening MY family, then my credo is die m#^$%f*&%Your family? Do you live in Lebanon? Don't you realise that's exactly how the people of southern Lebanon feel about the Israelis?

[srf4real]

First of all, those innocents lived there. So did many of the Hezbollah fighters. What do you mean by "harbouring"?

Your family? Do you live in Lebanon? Don't you realise that's exactly how the people of southern Lebanon feel about the Israelis?

My family lives on Manhattan Island, NYC. I have brothers and sisters all over the world who are threatened by these murderers that hide behind their innocent families in innocent neighborhoods. If there was a ruthless murderer of innocents hiding in my neighborhood, I would turn him in or kill him myself, thankyou very much.:cool:

"I'm in pest control" *cocks 9mm

[Dont Hurt Me]

My family lives on Manhattan Island, NYC. I have brothers and sisters all over the world who are threatened by these murderers that hide behind their innocent families in innocent neighborhoods. If there was a ruthless murderer of innocents hiding in my neighborhood, I would turn him in or kill him myself, thankyou very much.:cool:

"I'm in pest control" *cocks 9mmI agree, murder is murder, these folks had been stock piling rockets for years in civilian neighborhoods,homes etc. If Hezbolla would have just left Israel alone Lebanon would be a much better place today. Its hard for anyone to prosper if everything is destroyed. Lets remember who attacked who.
America had its civil war but we became a better place by working together rather then the constant hate & war. Mid east,Iraq, etc is the same as long as everyones energy is focused at destroying each other .Neither side will have anything unless they decide to work together on problems. I hate to say it but the religious base in that part of the world preaches intolerance and with that you get,hate,war,more hate more war a never ending cycle. Look at the Sunni's & Shiites for example. Hate is easy,Love isnt.

[skunk]

My family lives on Manhattan Island, NYC. I have brothers and sisters all over the world who are threatened by these murderers that hide behind their innocent families in innocent neighborhoods. If there was a ruthless murderer of innocents hiding in my neighborhood, I would turn him in or kill him myself, thankyou very much.:cool: Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney should be high on your list, then.

[skunk]

I agree, murder is murder, these folks had been stock piling rockets for years in civilian neighborhoods,homes etc. If Hezbolla would have just left Israel alone Lebanon would be a much better place today. Its hard for anyone to prosper if everything is destroyed. Lets remember who attacked who.2 kidnapped IDF soldiers = 1,200 Lebanese dead?

[pseudobrit]

My family lives on Manhattan Island, NYC. I have brothers and sisters all over the world who are threatened by these murderers that hide behind their innocent families in innocent neighborhoods. If there was a ruthless murderer of innocents hiding in my neighborhood, I would turn him in or kill him myself, thankyou very much.:cool:

My brother is in Iraq right now being shot at on a regular basis. He's had RPGs launched at him.

I, however, don't think wiping out the people of Iraq is the solution to this problem. I try to be a little more Christian in my approach to violence (and save it for my hockey games).

[obeygiant]

2 kidnapped IDF soldiers = 1,200 Lebanese dead?

more like

years of suicide bombings, scores of kidnapped civilians and soldiers, relentless rhetoric of Israel/jews must be wiped off the face of the earth, plus 2 kidnapped IDF soldiers = 1,200 Lebanese dead.

[Sayhey]

more like

years of suicide bombings, scores of kidnapped civilians and soldiers, relentless rhetoric of Israel/jews must be wiped off the face of the earth, plus 2 kidnapped IDF soldiers = 1,200 Lebanese dead.

Just how does any of the items you list on the front end of your equation justify the deaths of 1200 Lebanese innocents?

I could easily give you a much longer list of wrongs done to the Palestinians by the Israeli government, starting with decades after decades of occupation, but it would be outrageous to imply that it justified a single death of an Israeli innocent. Such lists may explain the motives of the murderers on both sides, but attempts to allow them cover by the enumeration of the opposition's wrong doing is to only fuel the fires.

Right now, the fires are burning in Gaza, and the deaths of innocents are occurring among Palestinians. Why is it so hard to condemn these actions?

[Compile 'em all]

more like

years of suicide bombings, scores of kidnapped civilians and soldiers, relentless rhetoric of Israel/jews must be wiped off the face of the earth, plus 2 kidnapped IDF soldiers = 1,200 Lebanese dead.

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbours.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defence Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian labourers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified labourers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed labourers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestinian territory in 1948?

Source :itszone (http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?p=303859&sid=90343d274363515c8e5c63aa6278db9d)

[SMM]

The reasons these prolonged series of wars and atrocities continue are basically due to two things; no solution has been found that satisfies everyone and everyone involved firmly believes they have the righteous cause.

Should the Jewish people have a homeland of their own? Probably. Should the Palestinian people have been uprooted from the lands they have owned for centuries, probably not.

I spent a couple years in Vietnam during the war. I became very good friends with a large, extended Vietnamese family. They taught me life lessons that only an oppressed people can tell. One of them is, no one can bear the indignity and humiliation of living under the rule of an occupying army (you hear that GW?). Also, the desire for freedom does not go away after a generation, or two. It is handed down and the fire burns just as hot.

Personally, I feel bad for all of the people of that region. I am totally against terrorism and waging war, especially against civilian populations. I certainly hope it was not the plan of the Western powers to simply displace the Palestinians, and let this become war to see who the alpha dog is. Yet, how could they have expected anything else?

I remember reading the Camp David Accord and some verbiage from other 'peace settlements'. Even though I was hopeful they might be the solution, I did not see what I think is a requirement; all parties must view it as a win, not less loss. There is a big difference. For all of the loss of life and grief these people have suffered, the only outcome can be victory.

Most of us human beings are territorial by nature. To possess something means that it must be exclusive ownership and denied to others. Sharing, although not unheard of, is seldom an acceptable arrangement. So, how can the Palestinians and Israelis both possess the same piece of land? Both are convinced it is theirs.

For those of you who have never lived in a war zone, especially one where it is prolonged and is waged as urban guerilla, law and social order go by the wayside. Even if an agreement was reached between Palestine and Israel, there is no guarantee their citizens will all acquiesce to it. In fact, we have seen this fail time after time.

We have a very strong pro-Isreal lobby in America. The Arab world sees us as a willing partner in promoting a one-sided agenda for peace. They are probably more right than wrong. The jewish people have been victimized for centuries. It did not start with Hitler. Giving them a homeland was a fine idea. But, creating NEW victims to do so was wrong. Until we make things right with the Palestinian people, I do not ever see peace coming to this region.

[Sayhey]

1. Did you know...


I hope this is your web site (http://hondaspeedsinfo.mothersblogz.com/index.php/2006/11/10/open-question-this-is-not-a-question-only-to-show-you-what-the-truth-around-you-is-honda-fit-dealer-arizona/). While I don't disagree with many of your points, it is customary to credit other's work and not take it wholesale. I'm going to assume both posts are from you.

Back to the point, the list you compile could be added to or changed in many ways, but it doesn't justify suicide bombers blowing up buses of innocent people. Neither does the past actions of suicide bombers justify this (http://www.un.org/unrwa/index.html).

I repeat, why is it so hard to condemn this madness?

[Compile 'em all]

Back to the point, the list you compile could be added to or changed in many ways, but it doesn't justify suicide bombers blowing up buses of innocent people. Neither does the past actions of suicide bombers justify this (http://www.un.org/unrwa/index.html).

I repeat, why is it so hard to condemn this madness?

Killing innocent people is never justified. It is just the fact that people think that the Palestinians are having a nice life and all of a sudden decide to kidnap a couple of soldiers. The fact remains, that an israeli life is much more important and valuable than a Palestinian. Nobody cares if a Palestinian family or an entire village is destroyed but the moment an israeli is killed everybody decides to care and speak of how barbaric arabs are.

[clevin]

more like

years of suicide bombings, scores of kidnapped civilians and soldiers, relentless rhetoric of Israel/jews must be wiped off the face of the earth, plus 2 kidnapped IDF soldiers = 1,200 Lebanese dead.

this is absurd, are you really telling me that israel's damage to Lebanon is only 1,200 death in past 50 years? This kind of ignoring of the facts is exactly the cause for the non-stop bloodshed. It started when you think your opponent's life isn't as valuable as yours.

[Macky-Mac]

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? ....

actually this is an oft repeated but inaccurate statement. The vast majority of land is state owned and thus not available for purchase by either jews or arabs. Israeli law does not prohibit arabs from purchasing or leasing privately held land and state held land is leased to arabs.

read more about it here;
http://www.meforum.org/article/370

[obeygiant]

It started when you think your opponent's life isn't as valuable as yours.

yeah, man, its called war.

[skunk]

No, man, it's called extreme prejudice and pig-ignorance.

[AP_piano295]

My family lives on Manhattan Island, NYC. I have brothers and sisters all over the world who are threatened by these murderers that hide behind their innocent families in innocent neighborhoods. If there was a ruthless murderer of innocents hiding in my neighborhood, I would turn him in or kill him myself, thankyou very much.:cool:

"I'm in pest control" *cocks 9mm

So your one of those people who doesnt care if 10,000 people are murdered just as long as theyre part of your "family".

[solvs]

Israel has the same problem we do. Making things worse in the name of self defense. Becoming just as bad, if not worse sometimes, than those they claim to be fighting. Then wondering why they're seen as bad guys when fighting those they call terrorists. We blow them up, they blow us up... in the end a lot of innocent people get blown up, and in the thirst for revenge, the cycle continues. I don't see a right here, just a lot of wrong. Arabs for striking out and calling it desperation, and Israel for the overkill that just makes things worse.

As a person who is partially Jewish, I can't say I like how they make the rest of us look. Not that that excuses terrorism against them. But I don't want to defend any of them.

Or even us when we screw up for that matter.

[obeygiant]

No, man, it's called extreme prejudice and pig-ignorance.

well if thats what you think its all about, and it makes you so mad, then why dont you go over there and fight with them. The truth is that if actually went there and professed your beliefs, they'd laugh at you, then they would kill you. Why? because you are english. but you still wouldnt call them prejudice or ignorant.

[miloblithe]

well if thats what you think its all about, and it makes you so mad, then why dont you go over there and fight with them. The truth is that if actually went there and professed your beliefs, they'd laugh at you, then they would kill you. Why? because you are english. but you still wouldnt call them prejudice or ignorant.

Plenty of Americans and Brits have gone to Palestine to work, volunteer, etc.

Here's one who was killed by Israelis:

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031703_dead_american.htm

Here's some who were assaulted by Israelis:

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/cgi-bin/am/exec/view.cgi/3/8225

Here's one with positive stories to tell, even though he was kidnapped briefly by armed assailants:

http://peoplesgeography.com/2006/10/24/still-resolved-to-tell-palestinians-story/

His conclusion:

Most Palestinians eagerly embrace Americans like me. They are anxious to tell their story, hoping I will tell others. My kidnapping, perhaps ironically, has not diminished my resolve to do just that.

Unfortunately, people like you seem to be incapable of hearing that story, relying instead on your prejudice and fear of the "other."

[toontra]

Plenty of Americans and Brits have gone to Palestine to work, volunteer, etc.

Here's one who was killed by Israelis:

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031703_dead_american.htm

Here's some who were assaulted by Israelis:

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/cgi-bin/am/exec/view.cgi/3/8225


Here's another killed by Israeli soldiers: Tom Hurndall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall).

obaygiant, it's people with attitudes like yours that ensure this conflict will escalate rather than resolve itself through dialogue. I guess you're living in the right country. Way to go, US.

[obeygiant]

Unfortunately, people like you seem to be incapable of hearing that story, relying instead on your prejudice and fear of the "other."

i can hear that story, its just i cant ignore what those "others" have done either. There are good and bad stories on both sides. what im talking about is that everyone has rushed to side of Hamas and these Martyr Brigades. Im sure the normal palistinian is a fine citizen, but he's been recruited by these organizations that want him to blow himself up at a nightclub or a coffee shop. Where are the people that dont support violence in palistine? Why dont they stand up?

[skunk]

i can hear that story, its just i cant ignore what those "others" have done either. There are good and bad stories on both sides. what im talking about is that everyone has rushed to side of Hamas and these Martyr Brigades. Im sure the normal palistinian is a fine citizen, but he's been recruited by these organizations that want him to blow himself up at a nightclub or a coffee shop. Where are the people that dont support violence in palistine? Why dont they stand up?Where are the places in Palestine where people could live unaffected by violence? Israeli abuse is a far more effective recruiter of suicide bombers than Hamas.

[obeygiant]

Here's another killed by Israeli soldiers: Tom Hurndall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall).

obaygiant, it's people with attitudes like yours that ensure this conflict will escalate rather than resolve itself through dialogue. I guess you're living in the right country. Way to go, US.

I seem to remember President Clinton standing between the leaders of palistine and israel shaking hands. I guess its better than just leaving it alone.
The ones with power to do something right should do something. leaving it alone doesnt always solve the problem.

[skunk]

I seem to remember President Clinton standing between the leaders of palistine and israel shaking hands. I guess its better than just leaving it alone.
The ones with power to do something right should do something. leaving it alone doesnt always solve the problem.:confused: Who's leaving what alone?

[clevin]

yeah, man, its called war.

dude, you are not in that war, and you shouldn't be the one to make these statements. If you picking side, then why do you think you still have position to broke anything between them?
When you are clearly picking side, the best you can do is, yeah, like you said "leave em alone",

[obeygiant]

dude, you are not in that war, and you shouldn't be the one to make these statements. If you picking side, then why do you think you still have position to broke anything between them?
When you are clearly picking side, the best you can do is, yeah, like you said "leave em alone",

Its funny how you guys:

1. forget what thread is about
2. neglect to read previous posts
3. quote out of context
4. misunderstand point of posts

you "liberals" are supposed to be the "smart" ones, remember?

:) :P XD

[skunk]

4. misunderstand point of postsI hadn't noticed that your posts had much of a point. I assumed they were designed to inflame the discussion without advancing an argument.

[miloblithe]

What did I quote out of context or misunderstand?

You need to stop grouping people together into neat little negative categories that justify your prejudices.

[skunk]

You need to stop grouping people together into neat little negative categories that justify your prejudices.I think "liberals" is a positive category. :)

[obeygiant]

What did I quote out of context or misunderstand?

You need to stop grouping people together into neat little negative categories that justify your prejudices.

whats negative about "liberals"? and i wouldnt call anyone prejudice here, its like pot calling the kettle black.

[skunk]

whats negative about "liberals"? and i wouldnt call anyone prejudice here, its like pot calling the kettle black.Don't be disingenuous. You quite clearly used the term "liberals" pejoratively. It's your prejudices which are causing you to make provocative assertions which fly in the face of both common sense and common decency.

[obeygiant]

Don't be disingenuous. You quite clearly used the term "liberals" pejoratively. It's your prejudices which are causing you to make provocative assertions which fly in the face of both common sense and common decency.

nope, you're wrong.

[pseudobrit]

nope, you're wrong.

And you're trolling.

[pseudobrit]

Im sure the normal palistinian is a fine citizen, but he's been recruited by these organizations that want him to blow himself up at a nightclub or a coffee shop. Where are the people that dont support violence in palistine? Why dont they stand up?

Why didn't the Germans stand up against Nazism? Why didn't the "Greatest Generation" stand up against Japanese internment? Why don't Christians stand up against bigotry?

[Sayhey]

Why didn't the Germans stand up against Nazism? Why didn't the "Greatest Generation" stand up against Japanese internment? Why don't Christians stand up against bigotry?

The answers to all of your questions, psuedo, is some of "them" did. Unfortunately, in all three cases, not enough to stop the Nazis, internment, or bigotry, but let's not forget the Germans who fought Hitler, the Americans who fought against internment, or the many Christians who stood up to, and continue to stand up to bigotry everyday. Of course, that may well be the point you are trying to make.

obeygiant, it is obvious you haven't a clue about Palestinian politics and just like to spout stereotypes about hate-filled Arabs. Get a book, read a website, or do something to learn something about the topic you are posting about or you will just continue to sound foolish.

[solvs]

everyone has rushed to side of Hamas and these Martyr Brigades.
No one is taking their side. We know they're bad. We can see why they feel desperate enough to do some of these things, but no one is excusing it. We just expect more from Israel. They seem to be making things worse, as I said, overkill. We're also angry that they don't seem to care how many civilians get caught in the crossfire. Never said they were worse than the terrorists, but how does that make them any better?

you "liberals" are supposed to be the "smart" ones, remember?
nope, you're wrong.
That doesn't really help your argument.

[Agathon]

If I had suffered what the Palestinians have, I would want to blow up coffee shops.

As if most of the people in them are innocent. Either they have voted for pigs like Sharon, or they have tried to ignore the Palestinian "problem" while hundreds of thousands of people lived like dogs, often in sight of them.

I wouldn't have blamed a black South African for terror bombing an Afrikaaner restaurant, nor would I have blamed a German Jew for doing the same during the Nazi years. So-called "innocent" people are anything but. Most of them sit around doing nothing while their government persecutes other people. Sure, they are less culpable than the scumbags doing the shooting, but they are still sitting back and benefiting from the occupation and the general misery meted out upon the Arabs.

The sad fact is that governments like apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany won't respond to peaceul demonstrations or non-violence. It took decades to get anything done in South Africa, and thousands of blacks died while their white masters sipped coffee in coffee shops.

I wish a peaceful solution would work, but often it does not.

I don't think a two state solution is viable either. The idea of governments or states based on ethnicity is a racist aberration. Of course the Israelis won't do this because they couldn't stand being ruled by an Arab. Rather like southern whites who can't stand the idea of a black president.

[freeny]

Its quite strange that the same division that sits in the middle east is reflected here on this forum. people who sympathize with the Palistinians only see the justification to condemn the deaths of Palistinians and those who sympathize with Israel only see the justification to condemn the deaths of Israelies.

Its quit scary.

There needs to be a new beginning seeing that there have been wrongs on both sides for many many years.

Really tired of it:mad:

[Sayhey]

Its quite strange that the same division that sits in the middle east is reflected here on this forum. people who sympathize with the Palistinians only see the justification to condemn the deaths of Palistinians and those who sympathize with Israel only see the justification to condemn the deaths of Israelies.

Its quit scary.

There needs to be a new beginning seeing that there have been wrongs on both sides for many many years.

Really tired of it:mad:

I've seen none of this. I've read a very few posts that express sympathy for the reasons of Palestinian violence towards Israel. Of those few, only one has expressed the idea that Israeli civilians may not be innocents who should therefore can legitimately be targeted. Over and over again there are posts that express the idea that Palestinian civilian deaths are just the price to be paid for Israel's security. I, and I think many others here, reject either framing of this violence. What is really quite scary is that some can't see both Israeli and Palestinian lives as of equal value, and far too often, when Palestinian lives are lost it is not something to worry about.

Agathon, yours is the one post I refer to in the above paragraph. While I agree with the identification with people who are colonized, occupied, and oppressed, I strongly disagree that there are no innocent Israelis.

[skunk]

While I agree with the identification with people who are colonized, occupied, and oppressed, I strongly disagree that there are no innocent Israelis.Perhaps because, by the same token, there are no innocent Brits or Americans either? It is, after all, our elected representatives who have prosecuted this war. Not a comfortable thought to live with.

[AP_piano295]

If I had suffered what the Palestinians have, I would want to blow up coffee shops.

As if most of the people in them are innocent. Either they have voted for pigs like Sharon, or they have tried to ignore the Palestinian "problem" while hundreds of thousands of people lived like dogs, often in sight of them.

I wouldn't have blamed a black South African for terror bombing an Afrikaaner restaurant, nor would I have blamed a German Jew for doing the same during the Nazi years. So-called "innocent" people are anything but. Most of them sit around doing nothing while their government persecutes other people. Sure, they are less culpable than the scumbags doing the shooting, but they are still sitting back and benefiting from the occupation and the general misery meted out upon the Arabs.

The sad fact is that governments like apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany won't respond to peaceul demonstrations or non-violence. It took decades to get anything done in South Africa, and thousands of blacks died while their white masters sipped coffee in coffee shops.

I wish a peaceful solution would work, but often it does not.

I don't think a two state solution is viable either. The idea of governments or states based on ethnicity is a racist aberration. Of course the Israelis won't do this because they couldn't stand being ruled by an Arab. Rather like southern whites who can't stand the idea of a black president.

what violent solutions have ever worked?

[Agathon]

Agathon, yours is the one post I refer to in the above paragraph. While I agree with the identification with people who are colonized, occupied, and oppressed, I strongly disagree that there are no innocent Israelis.

OK. Excluding children and so on, who have absolutely no say. Similarly, there were whites in South Africa who did all they could to end apartheid, and there are many Israelis against the occupation. I would be like this, if I were there, but I would accept the risk that I might be targeted, as the risk I run for being in a privileged position, whether I want to be or not.

On the other hand, there are a lot more who simply do nothing or try to ignore the issue while living a life on the back of someone else.

Most of my perspective on the issue comes from talking to liberal Israelis who gave up in despair and moved to Canada, where I was living. Most of them said that the Palestinians were basically ignored unless they started rioting. Their view was that if the Palestinians did nothing or tried peaceful negotiations, they would just be ignored, as they were in the past.

The whole thing is a crying shame. You have the Jewish people, who have historically been in the vanguard of human rights activism and anti-racism, and who in addition have suffered appallingly at the hands of regimes where racism was institutionalized, now being tarred with the same things themselves, because a portion of their population has deemed survival of their race at the costs of the human rights of others a price worth paying.

The creation of Israel was a terrible mistake. What should have happened is that the Jews should have been admitted to the USA and Canada. Those are both multicultural societies which, while they haven't always been as good as they could be in this respect, are now places where Jews can be Jewish and be accepted and prosperous members of the community (I miss the bagels I used to get in Canada).

What horrifies me even more is that some Zionists say things that are deeply racist. If you take Zionist statements and replace "jews" with "aryans", you'll see what I mean.

e.g. "The state of X must always retain its Aryan character".

"Any Aryan is welcome in state X"

"We have different car license plates and papers to distinguish Aryans from non-Aryans".

Sickening, isn't it?

[Agathon]

what violent solutions have ever worked?


OOOOOHHHHHH SAAAAAAYYY CAAAAAANNNN YOOUUUUU SEEEEEEE!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

:)

[Agathon]

Perhaps because, by the same token, there are no innocent Brits or Americans either? It is, after all, our elected representatives who have prosecuted this war. Not a comfortable thought to live with.

Yeah, but in a democracy, everyone is expected to accept the electoral results as the "will of the people". Part of the price you pay for being able to vote is that you accept that you might not win, and that you share partial responsibility for what the government does, whether you like it or not.

I guess you can always leave. A lot of Israelis are leaving Israel for this reason.

[KingYaba]

and demand Israeli troops pull out the territory.
Were they or were they not in the process pulling out before this whole fiasco during the summer?

As soon as Israel leaves, Gaza will be armed yet again.

[hulugu]

Yeah, but in a democracy, everyone is expected to accept the electoral results as the "will of the people". Part of the price you pay for being able to vote is that you accept that you might not win, and that you share partial responsibility for what the government does, whether you like it or not.

I guess you can always leave. A lot of Israelis are leaving Israel for this reason.

I don't agree, this is the same logic that the 9/11 hijackers used too, the people in the WTC were part of the economic engine of the western world and thus was a viable target.

I disagree entirely with this, civilians should be protected during war. Granted this is akin to the ideas of gentlemen's wars that were idealized, but never existed, in years past, but nonetheless we should consider the killing of civilians to be an atrocity.

[pseudobrit]

Its quite strange that the same division that sits in the middle east is reflected here on this forum. people who sympathize with the Palistinians only see the justification to condemn the deaths of Palistinians and those who sympathize with Israel only see the justification to condemn the deaths of Israelies.

I condemn both sides for the violence, because both sides perpetuate it for their own selfish ends. It's just that the Israelis look the Golaith in this fight. Israel's bad behaviour is heavily orchestrated and the Palestinians are just jamming.

[Agathon]

I don't agree, this is the same logic that the 9/11 hijackers used too, the people in the WTC were part of the economic engine of the western world and thus was a viable target.

Did you ever think that they might have a point?

We've been screwing Arabs for years, and making self serving excuses for doing so the whole time, whilst alienating or ignoring any claims they made, reasonable or no. In a democracy, ultimately the voters are responsible. If they don't want their governments to do bad things to other people, then they should elect Ralph Nader or the Libertarians. Everyone knows that the Republicrats will do this, so there is no real excuse.

9/11 did not shock me at all. It was only a matter before some of the fringe elements took matters into their own hands. I don't think it helped anyone in the long run, and harmed a great many people, but although one may disagree with their methods, and that particular bunch had their own specifically Islamist reasons for doing it, surely they had a point in saying this.

[solvs]

Did you ever think that they might have a point?

Whatever point they had was lost in the act. In anger, we return the violence. Then they return it to us. It's a vicious cycle.

There's defending yourself, there's fighting back, and there's making things worse. Terrorism makes things worse. What we're doing in Iraq, our failures in the 'stans, and Israel's overkill are making things worse. With a lot of innocent people caught in the crossfire.

[Peterkro]

Certainly 11/9 was a horrendous event,you can however see the perpetrators point.Arming the Israelis to the teeth whilst condoning their treatment of the Palestinians doesn't seem the best way to encourage a peaceful world community.

[hulugu]

Did you ever think that they might have a point?

We've been screwing Arabs for years, and making self serving excuses for doing so the whole time, whilst alienating or ignoring any claims they made, reasonable or no. In a democracy, ultimately the voters are responsible. If they don't want their governments to do bad things to other people, then they should elect Ralph Nader or the Libertarians. Everyone knows that the Republicrats will do this, so there is no real excuse.

9/11 did not shock me at all. It was only a matter before some of the fringe elements took matters into their own hands. I don't think it helped anyone in the long run, and harmed a great many people, but although one may disagree with their methods, and that particular bunch had their own specifically Islamist reasons for doing it, surely they had a point in saying this.

I agree they have a point, but not one I'm willing to justify. Killing civilians is wrong, it's evil, it's cruel and it doesn't work.

Furthermore, killing you or myself won't solve the problems in the Mideast, even if the United States were to abandon the region entirely, leaving Israel behind, and stopped buying oil, the Mideast would still be a violent and terrible place to live.
Most of the people really responsible for screwing up the Mideast are already dead.

[srf4real]

what violent solutions have ever worked?
kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out.:eek: