Zune Out

[mahonmeister]

I like the bigger screen and it sounds like the interface is pretty good. Even though the screens are of equal resolution, bigger is certainly more attractive. If I could use the wi-fi for more useful stuff it would be a great selling point for me. Radio, nice. I can see that as a very useful feature for news and such. I like my nano but the interface could use improvements. I'm certainly not interested in purchasing the Zune but I am moderately impressed. If nothing else, it will keep Apple on it's toes. Give me my full screen video iPod and iPhone and I'll shut up.

[macenforcer]

For the Zune to have been successful they would have had to do these things:


1. Allow it to work with itunes or come up with a mac version of the software.
2. Make the zune software work period. Buggy and too confusing.
3. Make the zune software work with vista.
4. Provide software to convert MCE recordings.
5. Slimmer.
6. Cheaper
7. Nicer looking.
8. Wifi that works. Sharing is stupid. Get your own songs.


THe only things this zune does well.

1. Doesn't scratch
2. Navigation of the player shows on a tv screen.

Thats it.


I got the zune killer for ya, its called the ZUNE!

[hungryjoe@]

"Even though the screens are of equal resolution"

The new 5G iPods are actually 640 x 480 resolution as of the 5.5G announcements...

Wasn't sure if this was already posted!

[Galex]

One thing I would really like to know is whether the Zune Marketplace and the related Microsoft points currency make it a truly international store or not. If so, this could turn out to be a winning concept compared to the annoying "a separate iTunes store in each country" strategy practiced by Apple. I constantly find songs on the US or UK sites that I am not able to buy since I am a Swedish customer. The lack of TV shows outside the US store is of course also annoying. Since content is important, this diminishes the perceived value of my iPod compared to if I had been living in another country. I know that the Zune itself is not available outside America for now, but if the Zune Marketplace is a truly international store from start it would certainly be a good selling-point for the Zune in many countries.

/Galex

[cecildk9999]

I like the bigger screen and it sounds like the interface is pretty good. Even though the screens are of equal resolution, bigger is certainly more attractive. If I could use the wi-fi for more useful stuff it would be a great selling point for me. Radio, nice. I can see that as a very useful feature for news and such. I like my nano but the interface could use improvements. I'm certainly not interested in purchasing the Zune but I am moderately impressed. If nothing else, it will keep Apple on it's toes. Give me my full screen video iPod and iPhone and I'll shut up.

I feel the same way; I saw some video of the Zune in action, and if nothing else, the transitions and look were pretty cool. But...I mostly use my iPod for music, and don't spend much time looking at the screen, so the screen real estate doesn't seem like a huge advantage (it would almost make more sense for the Zune to be a TV/movie player; try to become established in a budding market instead of an established one). A girl in my program has one of the Zen Creative mp3 players, and that looks pretty cool too, but it's not enough to convince me to switch.

Also, it seems like Microsoft is targeting the late teen -- early 20s demographic (I'm thinking of all their install screen images and ads); the iPod's appeal seems to work across the spectrum. I can also imagine some parents taking issue with the make out scene install image if their 12 year old child sees it.

[sparks9]

For the sake of your insanity, don't visit those new zune forums. You'll get an urge to advertize the iPods over the zune-thing...

[Chundles]

"Even though the screens are of equal resolution"

The new 5G iPods are actually 640 x 480 resolution as of the 5.5G announcements...

Wasn't sure if this was already posted!

No they're not. They're still 320x240 but 60% brighter. They are capable of playing back 640x480 video to a television but scale the video down to fit on the built-in screen. You've just confused the two resolutions, the screen did not gain any res, just the H.264 video files the iPod can playback.

The Zune and the iPod have the same resolution screen.

[BRLawyer]

Just a few short remarks on this discussion:

It really amazes me that we still see, in threads like this, the good ol' statement that "oh, it's Microsoft; so we should be careful, they have an iPod killer now!!!"...

1 - As many have said before, it's not the sheer number of features that makes iPod such an astounding success. People want it easy and well-integrated, and there is no Zune in the world which is gonna do that, unless MS changes its whole business model to ensure a perfect design, a seamless operation between software and hardware, and a smart balance between DRM and freedom. So far, neither MS nor any other maker have matched Apple's excellence;

2 - If you think MS's dominance in the OS world is reflected in any other area of the tech market, think again. Windows is clearly losing market share to Apple and Linux over the years, and MS has little to show in terms of future valuation; its remaining cash cow is MS Office, and Vista has lost its momentum a long time ago. We don't talk here about MS fanboys who want to be the next Rob Enderle...we talk about businesses which don't give a rat's ass to whatever eyecandy copycat Vista has.

As for the consoles area, Sony still kicks some serious MS ass (and even moreso with the PS3 in full production); and in the home media/music field, Apple IS the de facto standard maker, not MS. After a thousand launches of iPod killers (and, let's say, LITTLE groundbreaking improvements by Apple), the iPod just RULES. And why, again? Because it's nicer, sturdier, better integrated, with a killer business model and a very generous offer of DRM protection x freedom to rip.

3 - Let's just check again Zune's "features":

a) FM radio - mp3 players have been created exactly because FM radio sucks nowadays, period. If you want good, ad-less radio, you tune into Internet stations in your desktop. This feature has been out there for ages, and nobody gives a damn; NEXT!

b) Wi-fi sharing - please, don't make it sound as if it was a great thing, because it is NOT. I play songs I like in MY playlists, and will be hardly interested in listening to what the next Joe has in his rap collection. Besides, battery life is greatly depreciated with it, along with the ridiculous 4-song limit; NEXT!

c) Interface and design - the Zune is just ridiculous and bulky, period. The iPod is a winner also because of its patented touch/click wheel. No player equals that, and no player will for that matter. Navigation is just marvelous in the iPod. Besides, who wants a brown piece of brick? NO, thanks. NEXT!

d) The Zune has taken a pounding after the iPod price break. In other words, it's another crappy product in which MS loses money, for the sake of market grabbing...it's NOT gonna happen this time, MS...and it didn't happen either for the XBox.

Conclusion? File this under "Wannabe iPod Killers that have vanished". MS does NOT equal success anymore, and certainly does not have a winner with the Zune. Ridiculous name, ridiculous form, ridiculous paradigm. Now you may go back to "Zuneworld", fanboys...:rolleyes:

[Tymmz]

Those Zune-forums are great. I really need to have a look at the Zune and see what all the fuzz is about.

[iMikeT]

The Zune works like it looks, like crap.

I browsed through the install process Engadget and boy was that a doozy!:confused:

[Elrond39]

One thing I would really like to know is whether the Zune Marketplace and the related Microsoft points currency make it a truly international store or not. If so, this could turn out to be a winning concept compared to the annoying "a separate iTunes store in each country" strategy practiced by Apple. I constantly find songs on the US or UK sites that I am not able to buy since I am a Swedish customer. The lack of TV shows outside the US store is of course also annoying. Since content is important, this diminishes the perceived value of my iPod compared to if I had been living in another country. I know that the Zune itself is not available outside America for now, but if the Zune Marketplace is a truly international store from start it would certainly be a good selling-point for the Zune in many countries.

/Galex

You may want to read this (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/11536/), then... US only for the player for certain. And this (http://www.applematters.com/index.php/section/comments/zune-marketplaces-absurd-pricing-scheme/) on the absurdity of the pricing scheme. And, lastly, this (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=94) for some speculation on the international side of things.


No they're not. They're still 320x240 but 60% brighter. They are capable of playing back 640x480 video to a television but scale the video down to fit on the built-in screen. You've just confused the two resolutions, the screen did not gain any res, just the H.264 video files the iPod can playback.

The Zune and the iPod have the same resolution screen.

To reinforce Chundles (directly from the iPod Tech Specs page):

Display
- 2.5-inch (diagonal) QVGA transflective, over 65,000-color liquid crystal display with white LED backlight

- 320 by 240 pixel resolution, .156-mm dot pitch

[Roba]

I think that the Zune maybe do quite well it does have some good features. There are a lot of Windows users out there who do not like using an iPod because they do not wish to be tied to using iTunes. I was in a research group and only 1 other person there in a group of 10 owned an iPod because of this very reason.
My cousin who is a Windows user bought an iPod video and now she wants to sell it because she wants to put videos on there but the only videos that she can get is three minute video clips from the iTunes store which she is not happy about. She cannot play any other videos on her iPod.
She is now looking at some other options out there in the market and this is just another option for her to consider.

[Chundles]

I think that the Zune maybe do quite well it does have some good features. There are a lot of Windows users out there who do not like using an iPod because they do not wish to be tied to using iTunes.


So they'll replace being tied to iTunes with being tied to the Zune Marketplace. There's no difference in the business model here - both systems are locked into their respective software. I'd much rather be tied to something that works seamlessly and well whilst looking good than something so clunky as the Zune software.



I was in a research group and only 1 other person there in a group of 10 owned an iPod because of this very reason.
My cousin who is a Windows user bought an iPod video and now she wants to sell it because she wants to put videos on there but the only videos that she can get is three minute video clips from the iTunes store which she is not happy about. She cannot play any other videos on her iPod.
She is now looking at some other options out there in the market and this is just another option for her to consider.


You can play nearly any video on the iPod if given the proper format conversion. There are many programs out there that will convert any video to a format playable on the iPod, even commercial DVDs. I have videos of DVD movies, TV shows and music concerts ripped to iPod-friendly video formats ready to be loaded on my upcoming 5.5G iPod and doing so was a simple and painless procedure.

Current options (Mac)
Handbrake
iSquint
QuickTime Pro
iMovie
Visual Hub

PC
Videora
Don't know of any others because I'm a Mac user but a quick google search will turn up many options for the PC.

[Jesus]

and itunes has an option (I'm not sure where) called 'convert to ipod' which converts any video to ipod compatiable format, if Quicktime has the appropriate codec installed, by which I mean DivX.

[Roba]

Chundles thank you for your help. I am going to let her know about the conversion software that is out there. Maybe she will end up keeping it in the end if she can put her videos on there that she wants to.

[fixyourthinking]

First off, they are about the size and thickness of the 1Gen iPod. Not sleek at all, huge and crunky is a better word. Then the colors aren't very attractive at all. The brown one isn't really brown, it's got a translucent frosted green plastic outer case with a brown underbody.

Funny, I described one of my dog's turds with the same description to a vet a few weeks ago.

[Chundles]

and itunes has an option (I'm not sure where) called 'convert to ipod' which converts any video to ipod compatiable format, if Quicktime has the appropriate codec installed, by which I mean DivX.

Boy, how'd I forget that little gem?

I suppose you already know though eh JC? :D

Yeah, not too many excuses for not being able to get a video on an iPod. The only ones I know that are hard are Real Media and some of the new fangled WMV ones. Everything else should work.

[Warbrain]

I think that the Zune maybe do quite well it does have some good features. There are a lot of Windows users out there who do not like using an iPod because they do not wish to be tied to using iTunes. I was in a research group and only 1 other person there in a group of 10 owned an iPod because of this very reason.
My cousin who is a Windows user bought an iPod video and now she wants to sell it because she wants to put videos on there but the only videos that she can get is three minute video clips from the iTunes store which she is not happy about. She cannot play any other videos on her iPod.
She is now looking at some other options out there in the market and this is just another option for her to consider.

So they wouldn't like to be tied to what is the best-working DMP/application combo out there? And would rather have their computer crash throughout installation and usage just to use the Zune, which people have already figured out how to crash and shown that it's completely worthless. I almost think you're a Microsoft troll...

[Macnoviz]

Well, it might be out in time for the holiday season in Belgium, according to a MS spokesman (holiday season 2007, that is) but if they follow standard M$ scheduling who knows how long it takes until "the social" is limited to USA only.

Plus, there seem to be an awful lot of footnotes in the abovementioned articles, like songs outside WiFi sharing, songs outside the unlimited subscription (which might frustrate a lot of users in years to come)

[Warbrain]

One thing I would really like to know is whether the Zune Marketplace and the related Microsoft points currency make it a truly international store or not. If so, this could turn out to be a winning concept compared to the annoying "a separate iTunes store in each country" strategy practiced by Apple. I constantly find songs on the US or UK sites that I am not able to buy since I am a Swedish customer. The lack of TV shows outside the US store is of course also annoying. Since content is important, this diminishes the perceived value of my iPod compared to if I had been living in another country. I know that the Zune itself is not available outside America for now, but if the Zune Marketplace is a truly international store from start it would certainly be a good selling-point for the Zune in many countries.

/Galex

Um, I believe that the Zune is only available in the US right now, so no, it's not international...

[MacBoobsPro]

b) Wi-fi sharing - please, don't make it sound as if it was a great thing, because it is NOT. I play songs I like in MY playlists, and will be hardly interested in listening to what the next Joe has in his rap collection. Besides, battery life is greatly depreciated with it, along with the ridiculous 4-song limit; NEXT!

Er... its play one song 3 times then you have to buy it using MS credits. :D

Seriously I think MS would actually be better off not releasing the Zune. Its already being slated left right and centre by critics etc. They are losing money on it and they are alienating a large chunk of existing MS customers (playsforsure) so they are infact damaging the brand name.

They would be better off just doing nothing, they would make more money, have more customers and a better feeling towards the brand.

[gloss]

Funny, I described one of my dog's turds with the same description to a vet a few weeks ago.

I just peed a little.

[rxse7en]

Just saw a post on the local Craigslist, someone is selling their new Zune for $350. I have a feeling that the Zune is not going to be in the same resale class as the hard-to-get PS3.

[Warbrain]

Just saw a post on the local Craigslist, someone is selling their new Zune for $350. I have a feeling that the Zune is not going to be in the same resale class as the hard-to-get PS3.

Just wait until you see them on sale at Best Buy for 150 because they've got so large of a backstock...

[fixyourthinking]

and they said, Apple had environmental issues.


Yeah, I want a Greenpeace protest immediately!

[Roba]

I don't think that you know how some people out there feel about this. I was just reporting what was said in the group. It was about phones the discussion but the discussion steered onto iPods as the discussion was about a Nokia phone that was meant to be iPod's rival. That was what the majority opinion was in that group. They did not want to be tied to the iTunes software. I was also the only Mac user in that group and they were all Windows users.
I own an iPod and i am happy with mine. It is shame that people cannot report back on what some people have said about things without pointless comments.

So they wouldn't like to be tied to what is the best-working DMP/application combo out there? And would rather have their computer crash throughout installation and usage just to use the Zune, which people have already figured out how to crash and shown that it's completely worthless. I almost think you're a Microsoft troll...

[Leoff]

I believe Hulugu summed it up best. The only people who are going to buy a Zune are those who don't WANT an iPod.

[joshwest]

the thing is huge and clunky fitting it in your pocket would be fine but you would have a huge bulge, id take a first gen ipod over this anyday

[Warbrain]

the thing is huge and clunky fitting it in your pocket would be fine but you would have a huge bulge, id take a first gen ipod over this anyday

I don't know, bulges sometimes aren't that bad?\

"So what's that?"
"Oh, my brown Zune. Want to see?"
"Uh...no"

[demo]

definitely won't buy it

[freeny]

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2237

This story up over at appleinsider...
Apparently Zune is not compatible with Vista. It just keeps getting funnier....:p
Also the picture displayed while installing the software baffles me...

[thworple]

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2237

This story up over at appleinsider...
Apparently Zune is not compatible with Vista. It just keeps getting funnier....:p
Also the picture displayed while installing the software baffles me...

If this is true, its the funniest thing I've seen in ages. Made me choke on my sandwich at lunch! :D

[lmalave]

If your subscription lapses, not only do you have to spend time downloading the songs again, you don't even have access to them without purchasing them from another source. You can't legally make DRM-free copies to keep if you cancel your subscription. So, if you have 200 songs that you "must have", you will have to either continue your subscription or buy them somewhere else. I don't know about you, but I prefer to keep a copy of the songs I like, I don't change my musical taste every month. And I don't buy 180 songs a year (that would be 1 new song every 2 days).


Go back and read the paragraph you just wrote. You make no sense. You're mixing and matching SUBSCRIPTION downloads with PURCHASE downloads. Do you really think that if I had downloaded 5000 songs with a SUBSCRIPTION service, that when I cancelled that service I would be compelled to BUY those 5000 songs for $5000???? OF COURSE NOT.

What I would do, and in fact what I *have* done (more than once), is get another SUBSCRIPTION, and over time download those 5000 songs in that other SUBSCRIPTION service, again only paying $15/month. Notice that *buying* never came up in any of my explanations of the subscription service. I'm not interested in buying. Buying isn't even part of the equation. Go back and read my previous posts - I though they were very, very clear why switching subscription providers isn't that big a deal. I thought I described my experience in some detail.

An in terms of buying 180 songs a year on iTunes, ask yourself this: do you acquire 180 songs a year by any other means? How many songs do you download? How many CD's do you buy a year? Are you seriously telling me that your music collection doesn't grow by 180 songs a year by some means or another? Well, I think you'd be in the minority there, at least for people within a certain age range, and certainly compared to most people on this forum.

The point is, subscription services should be compared to the iTunes song-purchase model, *not* to free downloads. I mean yeah downloading music you get unlimited songs for *free*, at the cost of slow/unreliable downloads, incorrect/incomplete tag information, etc. When you compare LEGAL music options: subscription vs. a-la-carte song purchases, I think subscription wins HANDS DOWN.

[emotion]

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2237

This story up over at appleinsider...
Apparently Zune is not compatible with Vista. It just keeps getting funnier....:p
Also the picture displayed while installing the software baffles me...

I must say this Zune launch is proving incredibly entertaining. :)

So they mention in the article above that tthe splash screen of the 3 girls seems a bit odd. Is this (http://images.appleinsider.com/ballmer-ap-photo.jpg) the splash screen when you've finally "installed" the Zune? :D

[slidingjon]

Is that a Zune in your pocket? Or are you just too stupid to have bought an iPod?

[KipCoon]

I believe Hulugu summed it up best. The only people who are going to buy a Zune are those who don't WANT an iPod.

Its odd how iPod has such a positive and negative image to some. Never understood it but, it's their loss if they go for it. Read a lot of complaints about the Zune, just installation alone caused problems.

[Waiting4MacBook]

Here's how I see it...

Windoze diehards and XBox 360 users will like Zune (duh). If they can figure out how to use the OS without having any problems, they can probably get the Zune to do the same. Mac folks and iPod users will continue to like the iPod. We like stuff that just works, quickly, easily, and without giving me Error windows that only a software developer can understand. I just really don't understand how this is supposed to be a realistic competitor. I mean, it's a nifty little (big, rather) gadget, nice big screen (which iPod will soon have), Wi-fi (I really don't see the point, people will use this very little. What would be cool is being able to send all your songs wirelessly to it from your comp), but what else is there that's ANY better than what iPod already offers. I just see so many hurdles to this really taking off. There's already many different choices of iPod, one Zune. iTunes works, for the time being at least, it looks like the Zune software has problems. Reading all the "I hate iPod" posts in the Zune forums is hysterical. Good try MS, but I don't even think this will be an iRiver Killer.

[Roba]

Point taken to be honest after reading this and researching a bit more about the Zune i am not sure that those type of people that i was referring to would be interested or impressed with the Zune either for the reasons that you mentioned.
So they'll replace being tied to iTunes with being tied to the Zune Marketplace. There's no difference in the business model here - both systems are locked into their respective software. I'd much rather be tied to something that works seamlessly and well whilst looking good than something so clunky as the Zune software.

[JMax1]

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

[Docoe]

With a little peanut over the e. My name is Joe Dirte, I added an e to the end, cause it sounds cool. The zune already had an e so I added the tilde, cause it sounds cooler.

I posted 6 new zuné/joe dirté install pics heré. (http://web.mac.com/dorseycoe)

Hey zuné, Don't you get it? Stinky stuff is your milieu. Okay? This is your deal. You are an underachievement nexus of the universé. Microsoft gives new meaning to "marketing the crap" out of something.

The new zune sucks, if you disagree chances are you do too - yes I'm talking to you Steve Balmer. Monkey Dudé!

[Chundles]

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

Kinda like this? ;)

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/U/O/propaganda_foxnews.jpg

[MAcNIAC]

Those "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" adds jsut became so much more grounded in reality.


substitute in Jobs with an ipod, and Gates with a zune.:D

[Macnoviz]

Those "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" adds jsut became so much more grounded in reality.


substitute in Jobs with an ipod, and Gates with a zune.:D

We should have a reality program where Bill Gates and Steve Jobs have to perform tasks in OS X and Windows, respectively.

[Diatribe]

We should have a reality program where Bill Gates and Steve Jobs have to perform tasks in OS X and Windows, respectively.

Now that'd be pretty interesting. :D

[yg17]

Here's how I see it...

Windoze diehards and XBox 360 users will like Zune (duh).


I've got a 360, and I'll stick with my iPod. My iPod works great when connected to my 360, I have no reason to buy a Zune.

[MAcNIAC]

hi i'm a mac

[MAcNIAC]

and i'm a PC
:D

[macenforcer]

Mac... PC... LMFAO!
^
|
|
|

[nem3015]

Zune is dead (stillborn). Long live to the iPod. Case closed, Next!!!

[sachamun]

Those "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" adds jsut became so much more grounded in reality.


substitute in Jobs with an ipod, and Gates with a zune.:D

what happened to your 1st MBP?

[sachamun]

Zune is dead (stillborn). Long live to the iPod. Case closed, Next!!!

so is it a turd, or an abortion?

[lifeboy001]

The point is, subscription services should be compared to the iTunes song-purchase model, *not* to free downloads. I mean yeah downloading music you get unlimited songs for *free*, at the cost of slow/unreliable downloads, incorrect/incomplete tag information, etc. When you compare LEGAL music options: subscription vs. a-la-carte song purchases, I think subscription wins HANDS DOWN.


Well, being 24 now, lets say I listen to music for another 50 years. At $15/month, that's $9000. And while we're at it, for Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin et. al. fans, subscription services just aren't good enough. If you don't really appreciate the music you listen to, go ahead and get your million songs for $15. I'll stick with the 7000 songs that I actually like.

[cerberus]

spiegel.de, a german enewspaper says, zune has been sold 1 Times at Union Square, San Francisco. the report continues in listing other markets where the Zune hasn't been sold significantly more.
The also asked some sellers to show them the Zune, and they mostly answered, that they don't know what that is, zune.
I think its embarrassing for microsoft...

[Unspeaked]

I'm not a Zune fan, and couldn't even buy one if I was (since I'm a Mac user and don't own a PC), but I'm a little disappointed at the typical Mac-elitist attitude towards the Zune.

Ok, so the Zune's not perfect, but what product is? It's a first generation portable music player, so it's going to have bugs.

What people are underestimating is the Microsoft factor.

Someone said earlier that Microsoft is no greater a threat to Apple in this market than Sony, Samsung and Dell. Uh, really? So how come those three companies didn't launch huge marketing assualts with their "iPod Killers?" Granted, there was some advertising, but Microsoft's pulling an all out blitz. Also, I don't recall all the major media outlets having significant coverage of those competitor's product launches. Anything with the name "Microsoft" associated with it is a big deal. Finally, none of those companies are as determined as Microsoft is when breaking into new markets; they didn't have a war chest put aside with which they could lose money for up to 5 years (as Microsoft has said its willing to do with the Zune), nor do they have a proven track record of entering markets with a 0% share and becoming one of the dominant players, as Microsoft has done more than once.

I think the biggest disadvantage at this point is the compatibility issue. It's bad for Zune that it won't play music people already own. But other than that, I see any of its shortcomings as minor.

1) It's size. Yes, it's bigger than the iPod, but it's not really big or bulky... I don't think people will care about the slightly larger weight.

2) WiFi - I can't believe people are saying this a negative! If Apple implemented this same WiFi in the iPod, we'd be slobbering. It doesn't matter what limitations Microsoft has chosen to apply to it, the fact of the matter is the Zune is WiFi enabled and this opens the door to numerous firmware and software updates in the future that can take advantage of this in ways it currently does not.

3) The Microsoft factor. As incredibly as it sounds (and as unfathomable as it is to me), there are people out there that are just as rabid about Microsoft as we are about Apple. This product comes with an instant cult following. The following has grown by leaps and bounds since the release of the XBox, where Microsoft is seen as a cooler alternative to Sony's Playstation and Nintendo's kid-friendly DS and Wii.

4) Apple's market share. As much as being the leader in the industry helps it, it will also hurt Apple when people want to try something new. You may say that there have been alternatives to the iPod for years and people have always flocked to Apple, but never before has an alternative been shoved down their throats the way Zune is right now. And especially in the world of music and teens - where individually has a lot of cachet - not having an iPod may become cooler than being a sheep.

Is it a sure thing that the Zune will do well? Of course not.

Do I think Microsoft will eventually become the dominant force in the portable music market? I highly doubt it.

Will the Zune be a viable alternative to the iPod, which will go to at least a second and third generation, and probably spawn a flash based player, gathering a limited following and as much as 25% of the market? I think it's likely.

Remember, it's Microsoft we're talking about. We know their products are flawed and we know there's better options, but people still use them anyway.

Don't underestimate their ability to bully their way into the marketplace.

[balamw]

Don't underestimate their ability to bully their way into the marketplace.
Microsoft has already demonstrated that they can muscle their way in with things like Xbox, but the road is also littered with significant failures. UltimateTV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltimateTV#Microsoft_Product), WebTV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebTV), PlaysForSure need I mention Bob.

Sometimes they get it right (or at least right enough) with practice, Windows CE may be usable and even dominant now, but V1.0 was rather pathetic.

B

[gauriemma]

Ok, so the Zune's not perfect, but what product is? It's a first generation portable music player, so it's going to have bugs.


And that would be a fine rationalization if this was early 2002, or if the Zune was one of the first MP3 players. But it's 2006, and the iPod has been out for over 5 years. When you're going up against something that's been so intrenched and finely honed as the iPod, you're going to have to do better than "It's a frst generation player, it's going to have bugs"

[lmalave]

Well, being 24 now, lets say I listen to music for another 50 years. At $15/month, that's $9000. And while we're at it, for Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin et. al. fans, subscription services just aren't good enough. If you don't really appreciate the music you listen to, go ahead and get your million songs for $15. I'll stick with the 7000 songs that I actually like.

The only legitimate reason you gave above is the Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin thing. Yes, iTunes has exclusive deals from some artists so that is undeniably a drawback of any of the existing subscription services.

But your other arguments don't hold much weight in my opinion. So you have 7000 songs. To get those songs legally (either through iTunes or by buying the CDs) would cost you about $7000. So the only way you can make the subscription services seem more expensive is by comparing the cost of a subscription over FIFTY YEARS. C'mon man, that's utterly pathetic.

I'll state the obvious flaw in this argument: with a subscription service I could download those 7000 songs within the FIRST MONTH, and be enjoying that music for the next 50 years. In the a-la-carte purchase model, most people would take many, many years to buy that much music.

Furthermore, I don't see the argument that I "don't really appreciate the music" by preferring a subscription service. And saying that I want my "million songs" is just a straw man argument. Why would you make such a snarky comment that you know is not true? Neither I nor *anyone* would want a library of 1,000,000 songs, nor do most people have enough hard drive space for more thant 1% of that number.

So let's work with a *real* number. Since you *YOURSELF* threw out the number of 7000 songs, let's just round that up to 10,000 songs. Can we both agree that it's not unreasonable for most people to desire a collection of 10,000 songs? I believe most people could come up with a list of 10,000 songs that they "really appreciate". By your own calculation, within your *entire remaining lifetime* the cumulative cost of a subscription service is still less than the $10,000 cost of purchasing those 10,000 songs. But as I said above, the difference with a subscription service is that you can have that music in your library *immediately*, rather than buying it slowly over time.

[hulugu]

...So let's work with a *real* number. Since you *YOURSELF* threw out the number of 7000 songs, let's just round that up to 10,000 songs. Can we both agree that it's not unreasonable for most people to desire a collection of 10,000 songs? I believe most people could come up with a list of 10,000 songs that they "really appreciate"...But as I said above, the difference with a subscription service is that you can have that music in your library *immediately*, rather than buying it slowly over time.

But, the technical problems still remain with the current subscription services. I like the model, but the actual implementations leave a lot to be desired.
Furthemore, I have around 3000 songs in my current library and to be honest, I have to use Smart Playlists just to find stuff. I have more than 7 days of music and it's getting to the point where I can forget what I own.
I can listen to a track and have absolutely no idea who the artist is, what album it's from, or how I even got it. So, I think there's a limit to how much music one can consume before it becomes a measure of conspicuous consumption rather than true musical enjoyment.

Also, I buy lots of CDs for around $8 now for older stuff, so I'm spending about $.70 per track (albums are typically between 10 and 13 tracks, so there's some sloppy averages in that number). Not to mention free songs, stuff from eMusic, stuff from friends, and numerous CDs I've resold.

In reality, the subcription service is lousy when compared to physical media, but it becomes increasingly useful when compared to iTunes $.99 per track. But, for consumers the $.99 per track is still easier to deal with.

[lifeboy001]

The only legitimate reason you gave above is the Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin thing. Yes, iTunes has exclusive deals from some artists so that is undeniably a drawback of any of the existing subscription services.

But your other arguments don't hold much weight in my opinion. So you have 7000 songs. To get those songs legally (either through iTunes or by buying the CDs) would cost you about $7000. So the only way you can make the subscription services seem more expensive is by comparing the cost of a subscription over FIFTY YEARS. C'mon man, that's utterly pathetic.

I'll state the obvious flaw in this argument: with a subscription service I could download those 7000 songs within the FIRST MONTH, and be enjoying that music for the next 50 years. In the a-la-carte purchase model, most people would take many, many years to buy that much music.

Furthermore, I don't see the argument that I "don't really appreciate the music" by preferring a subscription service. And saying that I want my "million songs" is just a straw man argument. Why would you make such a snarky comment that you know is not true? Neither I nor *anyone* would want a library of 1,000,000 songs, nor do most people have enough hard drive space for more thant 1% of that number.

So let's work with a *real* number. Since you *YOURSELF* threw out the number of 7000 songs, let's just round that up to 10,000 songs. Can we both agree that it's not unreasonable for most people to desire a collection of 10,000 songs? I believe most people could come up with a list of 10,000 songs that they "really appreciate". By your own calculation, within your *entire remaining lifetime* the cumulative cost of a subscription service is still less than the $10,000 cost of purchasing those 10,000 songs. But as I said above, the difference with a subscription service is that you can have that music in your library *immediately*, rather than buying it slowly over time.

So you agree with me- without Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin, no music collection is complete? :) That's reason enough for me to not go subscription, but lets keep this going for fun, shall we?

What it comes down to is that for most people on this forum (read:not 12 year old girls), they already own plenty of music. If you can name a couple thousand songs that you want RIGHT NOW, then subsription is for you. For me (and most people here I'm sure), music purchasing has been a hobby for a decade or two, and will continue to be for many more. As a result, we have already built large collections of music. There are not 180 new songs I want per year- I'm lucky if I buy 3 or 4 CDs/year these days. As a result, I'll take my $40 in music costs per year over $180, and plenty of people will. The real issue here is I'm saying that your blanket statement that subscription models are the only that make sense was wrong. Good for you, but plenty bad for most.

While we're at it then, if you're spending $9000 for a lifetime of subscription and I'm paying $9000 (ok, fine) for all of my purchases, aren't I happier owning the music? It sure is nice to lend CDs to people and not have to buy crappy mp3 players...

[notjustjay]

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2237


I do NOT want that man to "squirt" me a picture of his kids :eek:

[notjustjay]

I'm saying that your blanket statement that subscription models are the only that make sense was wrong. Good for you, but plenty bad for most.

My big issue (other than the recurring monthly cost, especially for a guy like me who maybe buys 1-2 CD's per year...) is the lack of control. In a subscription service you're tied to the service provider. You buy a CD, you own it, forever. You buy a subscription, who's to say they're not going to start raising the fees, making some songs premium-subscriber only, ... if they decide for whatever reason to no longer offer a particular song on the subscription basis, you're stuck. With the CD, you own it, regardless of when it may go out of print or shoot up in price.

I hate the way my cell phone provider has been treating me. I chose them specifically because they offered per-second billing and the best roaming/long distance rates among its competitors. Over the past few years they have been slowly increasing the prices of their services and now everyone's at the same high price level. There's nothing I can do if I want cell service other than to put up with this crap.

[APPLENEWBIE]

Went to a local Best Buy which had three Zune (would not Zune be the plural of Zune?) on display. There was no signage at all, other than the price tags. One had battery power so I messed with it a little. The interface is actually pretty nice. The left menu button is handy to get back to menus past. THe screen looked good and is substantially bigger (visually anyway) than the iPod 30gb next to it. Fit and finish was good enough for American Motors quality control... all three had some pretty bad flash (excess untrimmed plastic) at the edges/joints. It really is pretty thick and somewhat of a handful. Frankly, esthetically, they are nothing special at all.

At this point salesperson shows up. I ask if they have sold any Zune. Nope. Do they have any accessories? Not that he knows of. Is there any sales literature about Zune. Nope. Has he ever used one besides the display units? Nope. Can he tell me anything about the Zune? "It works with windows" and "It's the same price as an iPod." Can I use it with songs I bought at iTunes "I'm not really sure..." Is there anyone else in the store who is a little more knowledgable about Zune? "No. I'm it." OK. Thanks for your help... :(

[APPLENEWBIE]

Of the Zune I handled: The white looks white. The black looks charcoal. The brown looks like a horrible mistake. To my eye it is just.... ewwww... I am at a loss for words... Brown tending toward green... oy vey...

The "scroll wheel" works ok but it is certainly less accurate/fast than a real scroll wheel. And it is quite small, I thought. Zune has a "hold" switch at the top that is made of cheap-feeling plastic.

Going through the menus made me realize how shallow the function list of Zune. I suppose most consumers might not notice that.

[kretzy]

I didn't realise the Zune wasn't being released here until March, and even that date is speculative. Is it being released anywhere other than the US?

[Chundles]

I didn't realise the Zune wasn't being released here until March, and even that date is speculative. Is it being released anywhere other than the US?

Nope, US-only at the moment to let MS test the waters. Rest of the world sometime next year or later.

[twoodcc]

Zune is dead (stillborn). Long live to the iPod. Case closed, Next!!!

yeah, i gotta agree. i'm not worried about the Zune hurting the iPod, or at least not yet

[AppleIntelRock]

A few points.

1) With regards to subscription services, they're not for everyone, however I do think it would be nice to have the ability to use one for those of us who would appreciate it. However, the sad reality is that Apple will never let music purchased digitally from third party work with iPod- at least in the near future.

2) As far as people going with the Zune based on features, have you ever heard of the Razr? Over 50 MILLION people use the Razr, and you know how many customers go into a store and say "I'd like a Razr" not caring one bit about what features it's similarly priced competition has. MP3 player is no longer the world for digital audio- iPod is. As far as I'm concerned the Zune is simply a glorified gigabeat (that actually looks worse.) Both are good products and I'm sure a few unites will be sold, however with the exception of the Zune party in Washington- nobody is buying the Zune- and nobody cares.This holiday season, the kids needing MP3 players will again ask for an iPod- as they have for years.

3) With regards to Apple innovating more quickly as a result of the Zune, that's simply not the case. Apple spends they amount of time they NEED, regardless of market pressures etc. Steve will release the next generation when he is 100% happy with it- not a minute before.

4) With regards to Borat, that movie was genius!

[patrick0brien]

...Ok, so the Zune's not perfect, but what product is? It's a first generation portable music player, so it's going to have bugs...

-Unspeaked

One point: This is MS's third attempt. The first was with the haphazard organization of BuyMusic, Napster et al, this one is hard to remember but the sudden plethora of WMV marketplaces is the key. The second, a bit more formal was 2004's PlaysForSure. This is the third attempt, the first by MS to control the device (a repackaged Gigbeat) and the service.

MS isn't known for its services (http://www.msn.com/).

This being the third in five years, they've had plenty of time, and proxy failures to get it right.

My disdain for the Zune is purely based on the stupidity of it - Mac be damned.

[sachamun]

It's funny how often this old statement by Steve Jobs keeps becoming true over and over again...it really just sums up this whole thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzKj-1HaKw

[A is jump]

Enter best buy look around a bit, go to zune. start trying to use it. first impression, the screen has a nice look to it, I think the software looks nice. downsides: its really big and bulky, not to mention ugly.
salesman (in typical salesman voice): hey, checkin out the zune huh?
Me: yeah its pretty ugly huh?
Salesman:not really, its actually has way more protection than an ipod does. so if you drop it, it should be ok.

I start thinking to myself... why would I drop it? isnt that what a ipod case is for? (and then you can choose if you want to make your ipod ugly or not)

Me: I dont like it. its not very intuitive, I keep accidently going places I dont intend to. combine that with it being 2 times larger than the biggest ipod, and as far as im concerned it might as well be a portable dvd player.

the end.

Zune is lame. on the other hand, alot of soccer moms seemed to like it.

it seems to have alot of appeal with soccer moms, and Dockers dads.
those are the people I saw going "oooo..ahhh" and "did you see the new mp3 player?"

[A is jump]

So you agree with me- without Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin, no music collection is complete? :) That's reason enough for me to not go subscription, but lets keep this going for fun, shall we?

What it comes down to is that for most people on this forum (read:not 12 year old girls), they already own plenty of music. If you can name a couple thousand songs that you want RIGHT NOW, then subsription is for you. For me (and most people here I'm sure), music purchasing has been a hobby for a decade or two, and will continue to be for many more. As a result, we have already built large collections of music. There are not 180 new songs I want per year- I'm lucky if I buy 3 or 4 CDs/year these days. As a result, I'll take my $40 in music costs per year over $180, and plenty of people will. The real issue here is I'm saying that your blanket statement that subscription models are the only that make sense was wrong. Good for you, but plenty bad for most.

While we're at it then, if you're spending $9000 for a lifetime of subscription and I'm paying $9000 (ok, fine) for all of my purchases, aren't I happier owning the music? It sure is nice to lend CDs to people and not have to buy crappy mp3 players...


To add my 2 cents into the subscription/purchase model discussion.
I am curious how the subscription model pays the artists. if I pay $15 a month for music, and listen to 50 songs from different artists, where does that money go? and does it know how many times I listened to each song?

so lets say that I am an indie artist, and obviously fewer people are "subscribing" to my music. and let us say that of the people who are subscribing to my music, many if not most are also subscribing to many larger groups like the beatles, or bjork, or maybe ben folds or any number of other groups that have a significant if not very large following. I suppose that they would get a bigger piece of the subscription pie? yet they can listen to my album all the time?
honestly I'd be pleased if people were digging on my music, but in a subscription based market... it also seems like if an artist wants to see any money they also have to be subscribed to for 50 years.

[dornoforpyros]

my favourite Zune quote comes from an Engadget poster

"I for one, welcome our DRMed overlord" hehe, made me chuckle

[Bali Cockfight]

The only legitimate reason you gave above is the Beatles/Tool/Zeppelin thing. Yes, iTunes has exclusive deals from some artists so that is undeniably a drawback of any of the existing subscription services.

But your other arguments don't hold much weight in my opinion. So you have 7000 songs. To get those songs legally (either through iTunes or by buying the CDs) would cost you about $7000. So the only way you can make the subscription services seem more expensive is by comparing the cost of a subscription over FIFTY YEARS. C'mon man, that's utterly pathetic.

I'll state the obvious flaw in this argument: with a subscription service I could download those 7000 songs within the FIRST MONTH, and be enjoying that music for the next 50 years. In the a-la-carte purchase model, most people would take many, many years to buy that much music.

Furthermore, I don't see the argument that I "don't really appreciate the music" by preferring a subscription service. And saying that I want my "million songs" is just a straw man argument. Why would you make such a snarky comment that you know is not true? Neither I nor *anyone* would want a library of 1,000,000 songs, nor do most people have enough hard drive space for more thant 1% of that number.

So let's work with a *real* number. Since you *YOURSELF* threw out the number of 7000 songs, let's just round that up to 10,000 songs. Can we both agree that it's not unreasonable for most people to desire a collection of 10,000 songs? I believe most people could come up with a list of 10,000 songs that they "really appreciate". By your own calculation, within your *entire remaining lifetime* the cumulative cost of a subscription service is still less than the $10,000 cost of purchasing those 10,000 songs. But as I said above, the difference with a subscription service is that you can have that music in your library *immediately*, rather than buying it slowly over time.

This is the textbook example of how to own someone in an argument. Good job! I am sure the other fella is peeing on himself right now

[Bali Cockfight]

It's funny how often this old statement by Steve Jobs keeps becoming true over and over again...it really just sums up this whole thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzKj-1HaKw

Jobs looks angry and bitter. Is it me or does the guy seem a little too obsessed with proportionally spaced fonts?

[ezekielrage_99]

I've read that apperently Zune will have rootkit installed on it just like the good old Sony laptops and for that reason alone I would never touch the Zune.

With rootkit on a Zune it explains why the record companies specifically Universal and Sony BMG are so happy with the Zune release.

The head of Sony BMG recently said "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"

[ChoMomma]

There is a video (http://caslon.stillpixel.com/index.php) from CNN that absolutely pans the Zune, from it's features right up to it's design.

**No I did NOT read the preceding 13 pages of comments.

[Warbrain]

There is a video (http://caslon.stillpixel.com/index.php) from CNN that absolutely pans the Zune, from it's features right up to it's design.

Yea, because that hasn't been posted a dozen times already...

[AppleIntelRock]

"The only problem with Microsoft is that they just have no taste, they have absolutely no taste, and what that means is (I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way) in the sense that they don't think of original ideas and they don't bring much culture into their product. You say now why is that important? Proportionally spaced fonts come from type setting, beautiful books, that's were one gets the idea, if it weren't for the Mac they would never have that in their products. I guess I am saddened, not by Microsoft's success- I have no problem with their success- they're earned their success (for the most part.) I have a problem with the fact that they just make really third rate products"

[AppleIntelRock]

Balmer when he found out MS copied OS 10.4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q42D_qVLUA&NR)

[Macnoviz]

I'll state the obvious flaw in this argument: with a subscription service I could download those 7000 songs within the FIRST MONTH, and be enjoying that music for the next 50 years.

The problem is you would never "own" your music. It's always rented, and you can't really be sure what the future will bring

[asxtb]

For the people that have actually used a Zune... How is the casing on it? Since it is supposedly a rubber/silicone case doesn't it get covered with lint? That's why I hate silicone cases for the iPod, you put it in your pocket then pull it out and it is covered with lint and feels dirty in your hands. And the only way to clean it is to wash it off with water. Probably can't do that with the Zune.

[lifeboy001]

This is the textbook example of how to own someone in an argument. Good job! I am sure the other fella is peeing on himself right now

Eh, this is a textbook example of somebody that doesn't understand the conversation. Realize that what works for this guy may not work for everybody. But it does work for him. Thus, he is correct to say subscriptions are the best model. Also, I am correct to say purchases are the best model. If this was an argument, he owned himself the moment he said subscriptions were the only model that made sense.

[patrick0brien]

-Folks

Subscription vs. A La Carte has and will always be argues ad nauseum - it's a preference. There is no right or wrong answer.

I prefer a la carte, but also wish the iTunes Store had the subscription option - and maybe a bridging function that lest you buy permanently a song you acquired through subscription or something.

Like matte vs. glossy, it'd be nice to have the choice.

Can we get back to frying MS for it's uniquely arrogant 'me too', 'johnny-come-lately' "We're still going to crush Apple despite having a dog of a product"?

[JMax1]

It's nice to hear such MS bashing. It's funny.

I work at a small music school where we use computers to help teach music theory to K-12 kids. They come for private lessons on their guitars and pianos and oboes, and get a half hour of music theory as well (they love it :cool: ) All the computers but one are PC's (that's just where all the software is, and it was all set up long before I started working there). The lonely apple product is an ancient Apple //e. The machine is older than I am, and all of the software is almost as old as I am too. The kids think it's microwave sometimes and don't know why the only color on the screen is green, but the simple fact is that the machine is still working, and so are (most of) the giant floppy disks with the apps. It's very amusiing, but the programs do their job so there's no reason to upgrade (other than having to shell out money for new computers when it's a privately run after-school music school).

It's kind of neat using such an ancient work of art.

[gdevitry]

http://www.technewsworld.com/rsstory/54291.html Vista is not currently supported!

http://www.zune.net/en-us/support/howto/start/operatingsystems.htm
(at the bottom)
'Windows Vista
Windows Vista is not supported at this time. Check back soon for updates.'

Crazy....

(sorry if a repost...)

[macmax77]

i am about to be banned from that page, i went in and laugh at them, ehhehe

By the way isn't Zune the same old Gigabeat by Toshiba?

[macmax77]

one thing the do at Zunescene is delete your post in less than 5 minutes if they don't like it

[patrick0brien]

i am about to be banned from that page, i went in and laugh at them, ehhehe

By the way isn't Zune the same old Gigabeat by Toshiba?

-macmax77

Yes.

But brown.

[G.Kirby]

http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/6002/zune-sales.html

Microsoft could be leaving the party very zune if sales don't pick up, now that would be a shame lol :D

*sorry if this link has already been posted*

[G.Kirby]

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Q4.06/E8C77ADC-3031-4227-9800-E6F2449D60F6.html

also make good reading. Enjoy :)

[sishaw]

The problem is you would never "own" your music. It's always rented, and you can't really be sure what the future will bring

Also, 7000 songs for 50 years @ 15.99/year = $9594 (if the price doesn't go up) vs. 7000 songs @ .99 = $6930, and you can also keep them for 50 years. Subscription services are a good deal for the companies, not so good for consumers.

[Cassie]

Check out engadgets experince with installing the Zune software.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/13/installing-the-zune-sucked/

Look in the upper right cornor. look a little, Mac OSX'ish to you?http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/11/zune_software_16.jpg

[lmalave]

Also, 7000 songs for 50 years @ 15.99/year = $9594 (if the price doesn't go up) vs. 7000 songs @ .99 = $6930, and you can also keep them for 50 years. Subscription services are a good deal for the companies, not so good for consumers.

Good grief, I've already covered this what, like, TWICE!!! With a subscription model you can download those 7000 songs within the first month after spending just $15. With the purchase model, it would take you years and years to purchase $7000 worth of songs.

Furthermore, you people arguing that subscription services cost more by extrapolating for 50 year are INSANE. How can you argue, with a straight face, that 50 years is a good time horizon to evaluate music consumption decisions? You have no idea what will be going on in your life in 50 years. You have no idea what the world will even be like in 50 years, and certainly not the state of music listening. Think about what's happened over the past 50 years: the industry has gone from vinyl records, to cassettes, to 8-Tracks (briefly), to CDs, to digital downloads. Can you *REALLY* be reasonably sure that a $7000 investment in AAC-formatted, Fairplay DRM'ed songs at a particular bitrate is a sound investment now and forever?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that for the vast majority of consumers, the subscription model is vastly preferable. If Apple did a 180 and offered an iTunes subscription service for $15, I think you'd have to be a moron to keep buying songs at $0.99 cents off of iTunes. IMO the only people that shouldn't go for a subscription are people that really like to own the *physical* product, be it CDs or vinyl.

[lmalave]

-Folks

Subscription vs. A La Carte has and will always be argues ad nauseum - it's a preference. There is no right or wrong answer.

I prefer a la carte, but also wish the iTunes Store had the subscription option - and maybe a bridging function that lest you buy permanently a song you acquired through subscription or something.

Like matte vs. glossy, it'd be nice to have the choice.

Can we get back to frying MS for it's uniquely arrogant 'me too', 'johnny-come-lately' "We're still going to crush Apple despite having a dog of a product"?

Yes, but the problem I have with it is that I don't think most people are evaluating this choice rationally. I think most people are just blindly accepting that Apple's current pricing strategy is somehow more "right", just because it's what Apple is doing.

It's ALL marketing folks. It's no different than Apple saying that it would never integrate a video player into the iPod, or that it would never use Intel chips (actually, I don't know if Steve ever said that, but he never deviated from presenting the PPC as superior to Intel when that was what Macs were using).

Let me make this bold prediction: it may not happen next year or even the year after that, but I predict that sometime within the next 5 years or so, Apple WILL make available the subscription model, and it will quickly become the primary way that people consume music.

[Ja Di ksw]

Good grief, I've already covered this what, like, TWICE!!! With a subscription model you can download those 7000 songs within the first month after spending just $15. With the purchase model, it would take you years and years to purchase $7000 worth of songs.

Furthermore, you people arguing that subscription services cost more by extrapolating for 50 year are INSANE. How can you argue, with a straight face, that 50 years is a good time horizon to evaluate music consumption decisions? You have no idea what will be going on in your life in 50 years. You have no idea what the world will even be like in 50 years, and certainly not the state of music listening. Think about what's happened over the past 50 years: the industry has gone from vinyl records, to cassettes, to 8-Tracks (briefly), to CDs, to digital downloads. Can you *REALLY* be reasonably sure that a $7000 investment in AAC-formatted, Fairplay DRM'ed songs at a particular bitrate is a sound investment now and forever?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that for the vast majority of consumers, the subscription model is vastly preferable. If Apple did a 180 and offered an iTunes subscription service for $15, I think you'd have to be a moron to keep buying songs at $0.99 cents off of iTunes. IMO the only people that shouldn't go for a subscription are people that really like to own the *physical* product, be it CDs or vinyl.

You make a good argument. I'll have to think about it some before I agree entirely on it or not, but I would also ammend that the people who don't buy too much should also go for .99 over a subscription. I buy a single song every month or two. A subscription model for me would have been tons more expensive than single purchases. Most people I know are that way too, since iTMS has opened up they've bought 200 or less songs, yet would have spent a lot more if it had been subscription.

[shunpike]

Average rating for the black Zune on Amazon is 3.5/5 (from 58 reviews)
Interestingly the brown Zune has 4.5/5 (Maybe Microsoft trying to big up another pile of ***** with some false reviews - one review said "The brown Zune looks great " - either they are colour blind or have weird tastes)
Comparatively all ipods are 4-4.5/5 and Black, Brown and White Zune sales have plummeted to 15th, 60th and 160th respectively ... It really died quickly.

[lmalave]

Also, 7000 songs for 50 years @ 15.99/year = $9594 (if the price doesn't go up) vs. 7000 songs @ .99 = $6930, and you can also keep them for 50 years. Subscription services are a good deal for the companies, not so good for consumers.

Let me expound on this a little bit more.

The purchasing model is good for *ARTISTS*, because the royalties that are calculated from a purchase are clear.

In most cases, the subscription model is the best for *CONSUMERS*.

I think Apple has sided with the artists here instead of the consumers. Which is a valid stand. I believe Jobs' reasoning, which he has touched on in interviews, is that you *have* to defend the artists because without artists there is no music to begin with. So argue this point if you will, but please *don't* argue that a subscription is somehow financially disadvantageous for the consumer. We're talking $15 bucks a month for unlimited music dowloads, folks!!!! I've bought martinis here in NYC that cost more than that! $15/month is really a pittance compared to the value that you are getting from the service.

[shunpike]

Sorry - double post

[lmalave]

You make a good argument. I'll have to think about it some before I agree entirely on it or not, but I would also ammend that the people who don't buy too much should also go for .99 over a subscription. I buy a single song every month or two. A subscription model for me would have been tons more expensive than single purchases. Most people I know are that way too, since iTMS has opened up they've bought 200 or less songs, yet would have spent a lot more if it had been subscription.

I agree most people don't buy that many songs from ITunes (average is 22 songs purchased from iTunes for every iPod sold). But the thing is, people are obviously getting their music from other means. In your example, you said only one iTunes song every one or 2 months. So that's, like, 1 CD's worth of music a year. Surely you acquire more than 1 CD's worth of music a year, right?

The point is, most people are still getting their music from buying CDs or from P2P downloads. I'm not comparing subscription services to either of those options (one is illegal, the other one is a preference for a physical product and uncompressed sound format). I'm specifically comparing legal digital download options: subscription services vs. a-la-carte song purchases. For someone who doesn't mind not buying the CD and who doesn't want to download music illegally, I think the subscription service would be preferable to the a-la-carte option.

So actually, this brings up a good point. In my case, I may not be in the mainstream because I am completely willing to forgo CD purchases, which are still the primary way that people acquire music. For someone that doesn't download illegally, and still acquires their music primarily through CDs, then a subscription service may not be such a good option. For those consumers, they may only purchase a song from iTunes when they only want that one song and don't want to buy the rest of the CD.

[Ja Di ksw]

Good point, most of my purchases are through CD's (and I just don't buy much music in general), and that definitely does affect it. So for people who don't buy a lot of music, or for those who mainly buy CD's, it is better for the person to do per song, but for those who only download and buy a lot of music, it is better to have subscription. Seems reasonable to me.

I purposely did not include illegal music acquisition in that because, well, it's illegal.

[Diatribe]

Furthermore, you people arguing that subscription services cost more by extrapolating for 50 year are INSANE. How can you argue, with a straight face, that 50 years is a good time horizon to evaluate music consumption decisions? You have no idea what will be going on in your life in 50 years. You have no idea what the world will even be like in 50 years, and certainly not the state of music listening. Think about what's happened over the past 50 years: the industry has gone from vinyl records, to cassettes, to 8-Tracks (briefly), to CDs, to digital downloads. Can you *REALLY* be reasonably sure that a $7000 investment in AAC-formatted, Fairplay DRM'ed songs at a particular bitrate is a sound investment now and forever?

I completely agree with you and you have just eliminated your argument.
Exactly because you don't know what will come in the future you'll be paying monthly for sth. that you don't know will stay with you.

DRMed "bought" songs I can still burn to CD and rerip, they'll stay with me forever.

[patrick0brien]

Yes, but the problem I have with it is that I don't think most people are evaluating this choice rationally. I think most people are just blindly accepting that Apple's current pricing strategy is somehow more "right", just because it's what Apple is doing.

It's ALL marketing folks. It's no different than Apple saying that it would never integrate a video player into the iPod, or that it would never use Intel chips (actually, I don't know if Steve ever said that, but he never deviated from presenting the PPC as superior to Intel when that was what Macs were using).

Let me make this bold prediction: it may not happen next year or even the year after that, but I predict that sometime within the next 5 years or so, Apple WILL make available the subscription model, and it will quickly become the primary way that people consume music.

-lmalave

Your conclusions are very valid and likely. However I would like to point out there is a big difference between Marketing and Market Analysis & Research. The points you made about the viPod, and your prediction of subscription model are actually based on the Market Analysis & Research Apple does. If there is a significant demand that warrants the introduction of a subscription model, they will do it. Gone are the days of "You will eat what we feed you" and "Not invented here" syndromes.

Again though, it's preference - I just wish the choice was there.

We really should decide on the fights worth fighting - is arguing over the preference of Subscription vs. A La Carte really that important?

[hulugu]

I've read that apperently Zune will have rootkit installed on it just like the good old Sony laptops and for that reason alone I would never touch the Zune.

With rootkit on a Zune it explains why the record companies specifically Universal and Sony BMG are so happy with the Zune release.

The head of Sony BMG recently said "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"

Source?

[Macnoviz]

Good grief, I've already covered this what, like, TWICE!!! With a subscription model you can download those 7000 songs within the first month after spending just $15. With the purchase model, it would take you years and years to purchase $7000 worth of songs.

Furthermore, you people arguing that subscription services cost more by extrapolating for 50 year are INSANE. How can you argue, with a straight face, that 50 years is a good time horizon to evaluate music consumption decisions? You have no idea what will be going on in your life in 50 years. You have no idea what the world will even be like in 50 years, and certainly not the state of music listening. Think about what's happened over the past 50 years: the industry has gone from vinyl records, to cassettes, to 8-Tracks (briefly), to CDs, to digital downloads. Can you *REALLY* be reasonably sure that a $7000 investment in AAC-formatted, Fairplay DRM'ed songs at a particular bitrate is a sound investment now and forever?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that for the vast majority of consumers, the subscription model is vastly preferable. If Apple did a 180 and offered an iTunes subscription service for $15, I think you'd have to be a moron to keep buying songs at $0.99 cents off of iTunes. IMO the only people that shouldn't go for a subscription are people that really like to own the *physical* product, be it CDs or vinyl.

Okay, if the subscription would work like it should, it is indeed better. But the it apparently M$ has a very original idea of "unlimited" Reviewers that tried 20 albums found that 5 of those are not part of the subscription. Furthermore, the Zune must be connected at least once a month to maintain the subscription. And for the longer term I still feel safer with FairPlay songs that will garantueed play, and which I can burn to a CD (this is NOT possible with Wincrap songs) 50 years is a lot, but look at WebTV. What if they suddenly decide to scrap Zune all together? I really don't like the idea of "renting" music. especially from M$, faithful lapdog of the big record companies.


EDIT: About the brown Zune, I have to say it looks good, from afar. What makes the Zune ugly is the lack of detail and finish. The color is good, but the little discolorations and translucently materials make it look cheap and unfinished.

[Ha ze]

I'd just never buy one

[Macnoviz]

Source?

what's a rootkit?

[SMM]

what's a rootkit?

Scariest stuff around: Follow the story links from here:

http://www.eweek.com/

[archurban]

it has been couple of days since Zune is out. today I headed to bestbuy for checking it again. two guys used it for couple of minutes. and I had a chnace to talk with them. well, one of guys seem to like subcription that he can eat all. unlimited download, explore tons of new songs. well, it's good as far as he pays for. if he stops to do, all of music will be disappeared. another guy said that he has donwloaded songs from URGE. well, it won't be working with zune. what you're gonna do I asked. he said 'I will be stick with sansa'.

couple of minutes later, sales person came to me for asking something. he didn't seem to know much than me. he didn't even know other purchased music with DRM won't be played with zune. wifi is only working with music, photos. NO video sending, NO podcast, NO audiobook because of no bookmarking feature.

then I was hang out 30 minutes more. nobody checked it out. game is over.

[hulugu]

what's a rootkit?

Simply put, it's a program that modifies the OS to hide processes which it then enables. These processes can be nearly anything, including, but not limited to, hiding files, changing network connections, and altering parts of the OS. A rootkit can allow an outsider user complete control of your machine.

The most widely known rootkit came from Sony-BMG who planted a rootkit program in an auto-run file on their music CDs, when a user went to rip or even listen to the music on the CD the rootkit infiltrated their computer and enable a piece of 'copy-protection' software. Players of World of Warcraft earned this rootkit would hide files with a certain ending from the system and used the rootkit to cheat the game. Malware authors use a similar strategy to attack vulnerable machines.

You don't want a rootkit on your system.

[archurban]

as you know, when you go to Bestbuy or target, zune booth has pamplet. I red it little bit. but there is wrong information on it. it says that zune can play itunes music, too. my gosh! how can they advertise such like that? usual people could just believe it since they don't have certain idea on this zune. it is a biggest time to be wrong.

[Ja Di ksw]

Apple should do something about that. I'm sure it will take away some iPod sales, and it's obviously false. There's no way that "slipped" in, something that blatant had to be done on purpose.

[clevin]

as you know, when you go to Bestbuy or target, zune booth has pamplet. I red it little bit. but there is wrong information on it. it says that zune can play itunes music, too. my gosh! how can they advertise such like that? usual people could just believe it since they don't have certain idea on this zune. it is a biggest time to be wrong.

: On install, the Zune automatically imports your existing iTunes database, for the most part without any hiccups. It even grabs the playlists and converts them to Zune's default playlist format. What it doesn't do is import the smart playlists, so you'll have to start all over with those. Except you can't, because there aren't any smart playlists in the Zune. In any case, the Zune should carry over the non-protected iTunes music, but if you purchased songs from the iTunes store (or any other online store) you're out of luck.

[balamw]

What it doesn't do is import the smart playlists, so you'll have to start all over with those. Except you can't, because there aren't any smart playlists in the Zune.
:eek: Smart playlists are the one feature of iPod+iTunes that convinced me to give OS X a try. I was actually toying with the idea of buying a Zune to try it out, but if it doesn't support anything like SPLs it's USELESS to me.

Just to know, what does the Zune do for Apple Lossless files and non MPEG-4 videos (e.g. MPEG-1 files) that are in the iTunes Library?

B

[iMeowbot]

We Were Wrong: Zune Does Support Smart Playlists (http://mfiorentino.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/we-were-wrong-zune-does-support-smart-playlists-215303.php) at Gizmodo.

[balamw]

We Were Wrong: Zune Does Support Smart Playlists (http://mfiorentino.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/we-were-wrong-zune-does-support-smart-playlists-215303.php) at Gizmodo.
So it is a supported feature, but not easily accessible and with a typically Microsoft over-complicated UI. :rolleyes:

B

[iMeowbot]

So it is a supported feature, but not easily accessible and with a typically Microsoft over-complicated UI. :rolleyes:

iTunes makes the smart playlist function a second-class citizen too. It's listed in the File menu, but it doesn't show up in the main interface unless you hold down the option key.

[clevin]

:eek: Smart playlists are the one feature of iPod+iTunes that convinced me to give OS X a try. I was actually toying with the idea of buying a Zune to try it out, but if it doesn't support anything like SPLs it's USELESS to me.

Just to know, what does the Zune do for Apple Lossless files and non MPEG-4 videos (e.g. MPEG-1 files) that are in the iTunes Library?

B

i was just copying from other place, i have no idea, I know Zune spts wmv/wma/aac/mp3, and its software can convert other format video files to wmv 10.
The thing is, I don't believe so called "apple lossless file" really mean anything, being "lossless" requires BIG size, which isn't attractive to many people, and if you got a smaller size file, I doubt it will be "lossless".

[shawnce]

The thing is, I don't believe so called "apple lossless file" really mean anything, being "lossless" requires BIG size, which isn't attractive to many people, and if you got a smaller size file, I doubt it will be "lossless". Huh? What don't you believe about Apple Lossless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless)? It is an audio codec that results in around 2 to 1 compression for common audio streams. It is lossless since you get the original digital audio stream back when you decompress it (unlike MP3 / ACC that results in an approximation of the original).

[clevin]

i did check a little about that lossless thing after my post. u r right, it might be good, but to be honest, i really dont think many ppl care about that, on a video player.

[AppleIntelRock]

why is it sooo hard for people to admit that at present time- the zune is better then the ipod- if only by a little?

[Belly-laughs]

What? Bigger is better?

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

why is it sooo hard for people to admit that at present time- the zune is better then the ipod- if only by a little?

wait...why?

[clevin]

What? Bigger is better?
oh, yeah, sometime, when amice trying to squeeze into a small hole to escape cat, smaller mice is nicer. Video player's screen? you bet bigger is better.

this is a funny one, LOL, u know its photoshop-ed
http://www.zunescene.com/zunevsipodvl2.png

[Belly-laughs]

He he! I guess it´s not a gun that´s in his pocket…

[archurban]

wow! it's amazing! zune thread is over 15 pages now. so are we really interested in or just blame? you know, when the pages is getting longer, people start to have interest gradually even some of you weren't before. I just want MS to make Mac version of zune market place like itunes someday so that I could play both zune and ipod. hell. of course you can do that on mac nowadays with bootcamp. but I don't want. feel like unperfect. will they bring it out for us?

[ezekielrage_99]

Source?

Basically I was more interested with the DRM side of the Zune with the wireless Zune to Zune copying and the subscription side of the whole Zune thing.

I kept coming up with articles in my "DRM on the Zune" search in Google and Yahoo! to do more with the fact that the DRM on the Zune is very similiar to the "DRM" on the Sony laptops a few years back.

When you see what the Zune can do it stands to reason that there would have to be some substancial control on the behalf of Microsoft. You are renting music from them and therefore Microsoft will want to know what you are listen to and copying other Zune for marketing purposes and copyright (yay DRM).

Personally it doesn't surprise me if we see another "DRM" legal battle within the next few months to do with the Zune because after all who came to Sony's aid with the rootkit debarkle and who doesn't have a great track record when it comes to ethical business practice? Microsoft ;)

[2nyRiggz]

Good for microsoft.....bring it on and let the ipod shine.
The interface sure looks nice though.


Bless

[clevin]

Basically I was more interested with the DRM side of the Zune with the wireless Zune to Zune copying and the subscription side of the whole Zune thing.

I kept coming up with articles in my "DRM on the Zune" search in Google and Yahoo! to do more with the fact that the DRM on the Zune is very similiar to the "DRM" on the Sony laptops a few years back.

When you see what the Zune can do it stands to reason that there would have to be some substancial control on the behalf of Microsoft. You are renting music from them and therefore Microsoft will want to know what you are listen to and copying other Zune for marketing purposes and copyright (yay DRM).

Personally it doesn't surprise me if we see another "DRM" legal battle within the next few months to do with the Zune because after all who came to Sony's aid with the rootkit debarkle and who doesn't have a great track record when it comes to ethical business practice? Microsoft ;)

M$ sure has missteps, and seems they are correcting it, in progress,
and this by no means should lead to a impression that Apple DRM is doing anything better. restricting users is not something that only done by M$, apple does the same, its just another DRM vs DRM, and Im not going to endorse any of them, I bought a song, I should be able to play it anywhere, no matter where I got it, itunes store, or Zune marketplace. in the case, neither of them is doing anything good.

[milo]

why is it sooo hard for people to admit that at present time- the zune is better then the ipod- if only by a little?

That's hilarious.

[hulugu]

why is it sooo hard for people to admit that at present time- the zune is better then the ipod- if only by a little?

There are just a few people who disagree with you:

David Pogue of the NYT.
Walter Mossberg of the WSJ.
Engadget.

Just to name a few.

[Ghibli]

Black, Brown and White Zune sales have plummeted to 15th, 60th and 160th respectively ... It really died quickly.

At present time the ONLY zune reported in the amazon top 100 is the black one in 49th position. No more Zunes in the first 100 places. The sandisk has a better position. It will quietly die in the next few months...

[russed]

why is it sooo hard for people to admit that at present time- the zune is better then the ipod- if only by a little?

oh dear!

do you seriously think that? you are telling me that you would buy a zune over an ipod.

oh dear oh dear (to quote the chuckle brothers)

[chukronos]

I was considering getting a zune. I think the bugs with DRM will be fixed soon enough. BUT, when I saw it in person, it is a friggin huge brick. To quote from Duece Bigalow: "That's a big B**ch!" I doubt it would fit in my pocket. I think the brown looks better in the pics than in person. Side by side, you can really see how much more sleek the ipod is.

So, I won't be buying the german tank version of the Zune. If Microsoft didn't shoot themselves in the foot, I am sure the next gens will be much more sleek looking.

[spicyapple]

The trim around the Zune screen and circular button is so ugly and unnecessary. I think it looks ugly. And Microsoft should have aimed for a form factor closer to the nano if they really wanted to take on Apple. But they suffer from the same missteps as other competitors... they focused on adding too many useless features, and not on the user experience and design.

No self-respecting person would carry around a Zune when there are choices such as the iPod shuffle and nano. I'm not sure targeting just at Windows geeks will be all that successful.

[nitynate]

The people at best buy have no idea what they are talking about.

I mean, I was asking if it would work with my iTunes music and my mac, and the guy told me "Yeah.... But macs suck anyway. Go with a windows machine."

[balamw]

No self-respecting person would carry around a Zune when there are choices such as the iPod shuffle and nano. I'm not sure targeting just at Windows geeks will be all that successful.
And this is exactly why the very nano-like Sandisk models are selling better than Zune at Amazon.

B

[Compile 'em all]

I mean, I was asking if it would work with my iTunes music and my mac, and the guy told me "Yeah.... But macs suck anyway. Go with a windows machine."

lol, those dudes have no clue whatsoever :confused: .

[nitynate]

lol, those dudes have no clue whatsoever :confused: .
Too bad you have to be 16 to work there.
Or else I would be like manager by now. :p

[archurban]

The people at best buy have no idea what they are talking about.

I mean, I was asking if it would work with my iTunes music and my mac, and the guy told me "Yeah.... But macs suck anyway. Go with a windows machine."

you'd better ignore them. everytime I go to there, employees don't seem to know much about their products as much as I do. so I explain the whole thing they never know before. then they wonder. Zune is the same. they don't have enough knowledge on this. it's very negative point when customers ask. that's why zune was left cold during black friday sale.

[Macnoviz]

you'd better ignore them. everytime I go to there, employees don't seem to know much about their products as much as I do. so I explain the whole thing they never know before. then they wonder. Zune is the same. they don't have enough knowledge on this. it's very negative point when customers ask. that's why zune was left cold during black friday sale.

It would really suck if those not so bright employees spread false rumors about the Zune, like saying you can share songs wirelessly, whithout mentioning all the small print (only DRM, only 3 days) or go about the FM transmitter (which sucks) or the widescreen (which is just full screen and same res as iPod)
Not to mention saying something like "Zune Marketplace is like iTMS only better and you pay 20 cents less per song, and you can have an unlimited subscription.

I hope people get the message that the Zune is not as good as described above.

[cecildk9999]

It would really suck if those not so bright employees spread false rumors about the Zune, like saying you can share songs wirelessly, whithout mentioning all the small print (only DRM, only 3 days) or go about the FM transmitter (which sucks) or the widescreen (which is just full screen and same res as iPod)
Not to mention saying something like "Zune Marketplace is like iTMS only better and you pay 20 cents less per song, and you can have an unlimited subscription.

I hope people get the message that the Zune is not as good as described above.

Of course, even if employees got people to buy Zunes by misstating the features, I doubt we'd have too many repeat customers; either that, or a whole lotta returns. ;)

[AppleIntelRock]

just picked up a zune at target. if i don't like it- i'll get an 8gb nano

[zephead]

just picked up a zune at target. if i don't like it- i'll get an 8gb nano

Sacrilege!! :eek: :eek: :p

[AppleIntelRock]

There are just a few people who disagree with you:

David Pogue of the NYT.
Walter Mossberg of the WSJ.
Engadget.

Just to name a few.

Walter Mossberg has become very Pro-Apple in the last few years. The Zune isn't betterthen the ipod- however it does offer some different features.

[hulugu]

just picked up a zune at target. if i don't like it- i'll get an 8gb nano

Masochist. ;)

Walter Mossberg has become very Pro-Apple in the last few years. The Zune isn't betterthen the ipod- however it does offer some different features.

Mossberg, Pogue, Engadget, are just a few people who didn't like it. The software seems especially problematic.

[russed]

just picked up a zune at target. if i don't like it- i'll get an 8gb nano

oh dear! did you buy it by mistake?

[shunpike]

Sacrilege!! :eek: :eek: :p

respect his choice ;) lol

[princealfie]

respect his choice ;) lol

I got the brownie :)

[shunpike]

I got the brownie :)

IN THAT CASE DON'T RESPECT HIS CHOICE ! ! ;) :p





WHY DID YOU BUY A BROWN ONE? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[princealfie]

IN THAT CASE DON'T RESPECT HIS CHOICE ! ! ;) :p





WHY DID YOU BUY A BROWN ONE? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Because it's the wierdest possible choice of any mp3 player. I think that it's odder than the red ipod nano... :cool:

[shunpike]

Because it's the wierdest possible choice of any mp3 player. I think that it's odder than the red ipod nano... :cool:

But the RED ipod nano stands for something, brown doesn't ... I agree it is a weird colour (brown) but if you like weird then why not buy a red not black nano?

[princealfie]

But the RED ipod nano stands for something, brown doesn't ... I agree it is a weird colour (brown) but if you like weird then why not buy a red not black nano?

I plan to buy both the black and red nano. I would like to have both! :cool: :D

[shunpike]

I plan to buy both the black and red nano. I would like to have both! :cool: :D

tell you what -why don't you buy me one as well while you're @ it! :p :p

[princealfie]

tell you what -why don't you buy me one as well while you're @ it! :p :p

Awww, I would do that but I think that my girlfriend would bust me! :eek:

[shunpike]

mehh - it was worth a try wasn't it? :o :(

[AppleIntelRock]

Sacrilege!! :eek: :eek: :p

Alright. So the verdict is in- the Zune is terrible. The software is buggy, the screen is very blurry and pixilated, battery life is sub-par, the interface is easy to use but horrid at the same time. I'd like to quote steve jobs when I say "Microsoft has no taste, they just have no taste. I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way." So I went into Best Buy today and bought an iPod Nano (black.) I'm glad that's over. Fair well Zune, I'm sure Apple is thinking of your as a very small fly on their windshield.

[zephead]

Alright. So the verdict is in- the Zune is terrible. The software is buggy, the screen is very blurry and pixilated, battery life is sub-par, the interface is easy to use but horrid at the same time. I'd like to quote steve jobs when I say "Microsoft has no taste, they just have no taste. I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way." So I went into Best Buy today and bought an iPod Nano (black.) I'm glad that's over. Fair well Zune, I'm sure Apple is thinking of your as a very small fly on their windshield.

Aha, we all knew you'd sober up sooner or later! No more crack for you. ;)

[russed]

Alright. So the verdict is in- the Zune is terrible. The software is buggy, the screen is very blurry and pixilated, battery life is sub-par, the interface is easy to use but horrid at the same time. I'd like to quote steve jobs when I say "Microsoft has no taste, they just have no taste. I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way." So I went into Best Buy today and bought an iPod Nano (black.) I'm glad that's over. Fair well Zune, I'm sure Apple is thinking of your as a very small fly on their windshield.

we will let you off, we will just put it down to you having a dizzy spell, that will explain it!

[shunpike]

Alright. So the verdict is in- the Zune is terrible. The software is buggy, the screen is very blurry and pixilated, battery life is sub-par, the interface is easy to use but horrid at the same time. I'd like to quote steve jobs when I say "Microsoft has no taste, they just have no taste. I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way." So I went into Best Buy today and bought an iPod Nano (black.) I'm glad that's over. Fair well Zune, I'm sure Apple is thinking of your as a very small fly on their windshield.

Aha, we all knew you'd sober up sooner or later! No more crack for you. ;)

we will let you off, we will just put it down to you having a dizzy spell, that will explain it!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion just because a demi-god on a mac site said the zune is good we don't have to get all angry and hetup about it and become witch burning maniacs --RANT ENDS--

BTBT: Why would someone bother trying to defend the Zune on an *gasp* Apple Fanboy *gasp* website - they should know they will get slated big time! :p

[princealfie]

Alright. So the verdict is in- the Zune is terrible. The software is buggy, the screen is very blurry and pixilated, battery life is sub-par, the interface is easy to use but horrid at the same time. I'd like to quote steve jobs when I say "Microsoft has no taste, they just have no taste. I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way." So I went into Best Buy today and bought an iPod Nano (black.) I'm glad that's over. Fair well Zune, I'm sure Apple is thinking of your as a very small fly on their windshield.

Yes, but won't it appear in the MOMA exhibition someday as a masterpiece of design?

[shunpike]

Who knows - only time will tell, lol

It's a strange world isn't it?

[russed]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion just because a demi-god on a mac site said the zune is good we don't have to get all angry and hetup about it and become witch burning maniacs --RANT ENDS--

BTBT: Why would someone bother trying to defend the Zune on an *gasp* Apple Fanboy *gasp* website - they should know they will get slated big time! :p

urm...its not just mac fan boys saying the zune is crap - try going to winsupersite.com, paul thurrot who loves windows says it rubbish also.

so its not just us.

[Rodimus Prime]

Well one thing about the Zune I do like is the FM radio and it is something I really wish the iPod would have. And before I get flamed I might as well explain why.

My 20gig iPod has about 10gigs worth of songs on there so there is plenty of stuff there to listen to but there are times I would rather just listen to a radio station. Currently my iPod lives in my car I use it there most of the time. I find myself going for the radio quite often just because I am bored of my stuff and the FM radio will play things I have not heard in a while or never heard and it play songs that I forgot that I really liked.
Even when using my iPod when I study or just listening to it there are times I wish it would play FM. It is a really simple feature to add and really would not take much at all. There already is enough dead space in the iPod to house the items it would need.

As for the other stuff on the Zune I have not really looked at it much at all but I do see a lot of promise there. WMP11 does have some nice built in features that in some ways are better than iTunes and the part with the interface with mp3 players is about the same level of guilty as iTunes. I have not played around with it enough to really give the one in WMP a good look over. But I do know it at least has a lot of good things in it and the direction it heading is really nice.

As for me I will still stick with iTunes as my media music player just because it is what I am used to and i do know how to use it. That and the search function is a lot better. WMP11 could really be great if it could put in the dynamic search iTunes does. I think that is one of the largest things holding it back

[archurban]

are we still talking about zune? come on. you've already done it. I don't care it anymore. if you like zune, get it. if you don't, get ipod. then realize zune is not nice for mac even though we run bootcamp. I believe Apple will take care of it very much. they know how to get over MS. old style money pushing business doesn't work anymore.

[ChickenSwartz]

Well one thing about the Zune I do like is the FM radio and it is something I really wish the iPod would have. And before I get flamed I might as well explain why.

My 20gig iPod has about 10gigs worth of songs on there so there is plenty of stuff there to listen to but there are times I would rather just listen to a radio station. Currently my iPod lives in my car I use it there most of the time. I find myself going for the radio quite often just because I am bored of my stuff and the FM radio will play things I have not heard in a while or never heard and it play songs that I forgot that I really liked.
Even when using my iPod when I study or just listening to it there are times I wish it would play FM. It is a really simple feature to add and really would not take much at all. There already is enough dead space in the iPod to house the items it would need.

As for the other stuff on the Zune I have not really looked at it much at all but I do see a lot of promise there. WMP11 does have some nice built in features that in some ways are better than iTunes and the part with the interface with mp3 players is about the same level of guilty as iTunes. I have not played around with it enough to really give the one in WMP a good look over. But I do know it at least has a lot of good things in it and the direction it heading is really nice.

As for me I will still stick with iTunes as my media music player just because it is what I am used to and i do know how to use it. That and the search function is a lot better. WMP11 could really be great if it could put in the dynamic search iTunes does. I think that is one of the largest things holding it back

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/6074003/wo/rz1jSyRKw5xH2xF2HTffVsLyFRg/1.0.21.1.0.8.25.7.11.0.3
I like that Apple keeps the options optional.

[Rodimus Prime]

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/6074003/wo/rz1jSyRKw5xH2xF2HTffVsLyFRg/1.0.21.1.0.8.25.7.11.0.3
I like that Apple keeps the options optional.

only problem I have with that is that it is an extrnal device that hooks in and I would be worried about snapping it. Plus I do not like having to uses a device like that and well 50 bucks for it is well a little over board. FM radio to add it to the ipod would cost at most 5 bucks. But like I said it is apple call. The lack of a built in FM radio is my biggest beef with the iPod. Out side of that I love it.

More so the FM radio is the biggest thing on my wish list for the iPod and if they make an iPod with a built in FM radio I would very willing to replace my current iPod but until then I am going to use mine until it dies.

[patrick0brien]

only problem I have with that is that it is an extrnal device that hooks in and I would be worried about snapping it. Plus I do not like having to uses a device like that and well 50 bucks for it is well a little over board. FM radio to add it to the ipod would cost at most 5 bucks. But like I said it is apple call. The lack of a built in FM radio is my biggest beef with the iPod. Out side of that I love it.

More so the FM radio is the biggest thing on my wish list for the iPod and if they make an iPod with a built in FM radio I would very willing to replace my current iPod but until then I am going to use mine until it dies.

-Rodimus Prime

Well then, until then, enjoy your Zune.

[zephead]

I would very willing to replace my current iPod but until then I am going to use mine until it dies.

I think that would imply that he has an iPod.

[Rodimus Prime]

I think that would imply that he has an iPod.

exactly. I have a G4 20gig iPod I got almost 2 years go. And I still enjoying it. I have no reason to upgrade and replace it until it dies. Since I got my iPod apple has not released a new iPod with any new features that I really care about having. The Monotone display for me covers all the information I care about. yeah color screens are nice but it a very low priority for me. I use my iPod to listen to music and has a small transportable hard drive. Right now 20gigs is all I need.

FM radio just happens to be one of the features I really wise would be added to the iPod. I like how the iPod works and plays with iTunes. It very easy and user friendly, Speaking of which I need to make a new playlist for my long drive home on Friday.

PS. Just because I stated I want something not in the iPod and that the Zune has does not mean I do not have an iPod and like the iPod.

[BoyBach]

We all know that sex sells, so is this (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/20/walmarts-zunes-now-with-more-porn/) how Microsoft plans for the Zune to kill the ipod?