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View Full Version : Universal Accuses non-Zune owners of stealing music




mdntcallr
Nov 15, 2006, 10:44 AM
http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/11/13/non.zune.owners.thieves/

Universal today accused all owners of non-Zune music players of stealing music, according to a report from Billboard Magazine. The major record label last week revealed that it had struck a deal with Microsoft to collect royalties on each Zune player sold. "We felt that any business that's built on the bedrock of music we should share in," Universal CEO Doug Morris said. Today Universal's chief revealed that the label refused to license its content to Microsoft's Zune Marketplace online store without royalties, arguing that his company requires compensation above and beyond direct music sales, regardless of whether Universal artists' music is ever copied to a Zune. "These devices are just repositories for stolen music, and they all know it." Morris' statement in effect suggests that players without such licensing schemes -- such as Apple's iPod -- are used primarily to listen to illegally copied songs.

The executive also clarified the terms of Universal's deal with Microsoft, noting that the company receives $1 per every $250 Zune sold and distributing half of the profits equally amongst its artists, according to Electronista. Universal previously hinted that it will try to negotiate similar terms with Apple and other online store owners in the future, but has not said that it would adjust the price of the music itself.



Chundles
Nov 15, 2006, 10:49 AM
That's just *********.

They're basically saying to iTS customers, "oh so you thought purchasing that music that we let you purchase was fine by us? No, we've figured out a way to make even more money so now you're all thieves until you start adhering to the new rules."

Bloody record companies, time for the artists to ditch them and strike out on their own.

gloss
Nov 15, 2006, 10:49 AM
I believe I speak for all of us when I say '****** Universal.'

If I buy a CD, it's my right to listen to it as I please, whether that means putting it on an iPod or not. If they think Zune owners are going to be any better about this, they're a bunch of useless, bloody loonies (to quote Adams).

mdntcallr
Nov 15, 2006, 10:50 AM
Friends,

I think this is offensive! I own two ipods. I have a huge CD collection. I like to buy some music online, I also like to buy cd's and rip music that way, why? cause i like better sounding music than the online store offers.

I also work in the music industry, as does most of my family, so when i hear Doug Morris attacking people, who are music customers just because he wants more money from electronics manufacturers, it offends me.

Doug Morris is offensive in what he said here.

I think people need to know what is happening here. Universal used leverage to extract a royalty, or more expressly a toll fee, to playball with the UMG catalog on the Zune music store. They wouldnt license content for sale via Microsoft without this deal.

This is part of a strategy UMG has to change the dynamics of music sales and royalties by creating ways of new income.

Who will pay for this? The Consumers in form of expanded prices.

Screw Doug Morris! Screw UMG!

---------------------------------------------------------

Added on:
Also, NOT all record labels are like this. UMG is being particularly aggressive. companies like EMI, SONY-BMG and Warners are NOT pushing this agenda. This is a UMG thing

Blue Velvet
Nov 15, 2006, 10:50 AM
The day they get rid of CDs and burden us with crappy, low-bit, DRM-infested downloads is the day I stop buying music.

Universal, you contemptible pricks. I've spent a lot of money with you guys... I replaced my favourite vinyl with CDs, paying over again for poorly-mastered content and then almost content to pay again for remastered favourites. I scrupulously buy my CDs like a good well-trained consumer.

Who the hell do you think you are calling thieves? Effing nerve.

BanjoBanker
Nov 15, 2006, 10:58 AM
Microsoft caved to Universal/BMI in order to get them onboard w/ Zune. Now Universal thinks they can extort Apple. This is the same crap that the music labels tried in the 70s when casette tapes and recorders became popular. They wanted a royalty paid on every blank casette! They got their way in Europe, where a royalty is paid to the European version of ASCAP for every blank CD and casette sold. Since the music companies lost that fight here, they have been waiting for a chance to get their revenge on all of us music pirates and our recording devices, and Microsoft gave it to them. Payola lives!

mdntcallr
Nov 15, 2006, 11:26 AM
another interesting article on the matter

http://www.applematters.com/index.php/section/comments/universal-calls-mp3-users-thieves/

On Friday Chris Seibold wrote about a deal between Universal and Microsoft. He reported that Microsoft agreed to pay Universal a portion of the proceeds from every Zune player they sell.

But wait, thereís more. You might be interested in knowing what Universalís chairman/CEO has to say about it. According to Billboard.com, Doug Morris doesnít think much of people who use mp3 players.

"These devices are just repositories for stolen music, and they all know it,Ē UMG chairman/CEO Doug Morris says. ďSo itís time to get paid for it."

Maybe he needs to read the Jupiter research better. Mac Daily News does a good job reporting the research. To sum it up, only 7% of iPod users and 25% of those using other mp3 players download music illegally. That leaves an awful lot of people either downloading music legally or filling their iPods with music ripped from CDs.

Doug Morris is risking alienating a lot of past and potential customers. Even those who use illegal download sites probably purchase some music, whether online or in the form of CDs. If Morris had read the Jupiter research, he might realize that people who use iPod and other mp3 players are much more likely to purchase CDs than those who donít own such a device. That only makes sense. If you purchase an mp3 player, youíre probably already a music lover.

The comments on Mac Daily News show a strong reaction by mp3 purchasers. Several readers sent letters to Universal which they copied at the Mac Daily News site. Some are suggesting boycotts. Quite a few of them talked about the total number of songs they have on their iPods and stated that they had paid for every one of them. Others said they had stopped listening to and purchasing music altogether until iTMS and iPods breathed new life into their music listening habits.

Mr. Morris might also do well to remember that iTMS has sold over one billion songs. Thatís a lot of music, every bit of it legal. While I donít have any statistics proving that much of it was from Universalís artists, I know this has to be true just because of Universalís sheer size.

How much money did Universal make from those one billion downloads? How many customers did it take to download these songs? Compound that by downloads at other legal sites. Mr. Morris, I think a lot of people wonder why you insulted them that way.

People are already angry at Microsoft for making this deal. Itís a dream come true for Universal. According to American Public Media, Microsoft plans to enter into similar deals with other labels. Hopefully their CEOs will just be happy with the situation and realize that itís not the best move to insult their customers.

When the contract renewal comes up between Universal and Apple, I hope Apple stands their ground. If Zune is successful, labels will feel they have an option and might try to hold out for the same deal with Apple that they get from Microsoft. I hate the idea of Apple doing business with a company whose CEO calls me a thief.

By the way, Mr. Morris, my MP3 is full. In fact, we have three in our family, most of them full. Every song on them is ripped from purchased CDs. Not one is an illegal download.

Apple, please take note of the Jupiter research report. Even with one billion songs sold on iTMS, most of the music on iPods comes from CDs. Donít make a Microsoft deal with Universal. They still need you more than you need them.

***Last minute update: I was reading the article by James R. Stoup on the Zune pricing scheme. Following a link left by reader Ben Hall (thanks, Ben) I discovered why it is that Microsoft and Universal work so well together.

Microsoft has long believed iPod users are thieves.

Check out this quote dated October 4, 2004. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, in talking about iPods, states ďThe most common format of music on an iPod is stolen.Ē He blames a lot of it on the difficulty of using Appleís DRM.

Are any of you being tired of being called thieves? I know I am.

2jaded2care
Nov 15, 2006, 11:30 AM
One more reason to use ITMS or buy my retail CDs used off eBay.

Wonder if -- since M$ has now set the legal precedent -- the other recording companies can now sue for their fair portion of Zune sales?

mdntcallr
Nov 15, 2006, 11:38 AM
This is no legal precedent. However, it is a industry precedent. Microsoft will likely do a similar deal with each major label group. they are NOT going to turn down money. Even if Zune tanks, microsoft wants to change the industry dynamics of Apple dictating terms to their partners.

This is all part of a MSFT strategy to screw with Apple

Counterfit
Nov 15, 2006, 12:34 PM
There's a new name on my Douchebag list, and that name is Doug Morris.

bartelby
Nov 15, 2006, 12:39 PM
Anyone got Doug Morris's email address?

Remember, UMG did this too...

In May 2006, an investigation led by New York attorney general Eliot Spitzer concluded with a determination that Universal bribed radio stations to play songs from Ashlee Simpson, Brian McKnight, Big Tymers, Lindsay Lohan and other performers working for Universal labels. The company paid $12 million to the state in settlement.


EDIT: I'll be sending an email to this address until I can find Mr Morris's!

communications@umusic.com

BornAgainMac
Nov 15, 2006, 12:45 PM
I am confused?! So all they want is 1 buck for a entire 30 GBs of stolen music. That is all they think it is worth? They seem happy with that? Ok.

I have been buying all my music and I thought 99 cents was good for one song.

balamw
Nov 15, 2006, 12:55 PM
I am confused?! So all they want is 1 buck for a entire 30 GBs of stolen music. That is all they think it is worth? They seem happy with that? Ok.

I have been buying all my music and I thought 99 cents was good for one song.
LOL. Wonder how soon this'll be used as precedent in RIAA cases.

Maybe the labels need to set up their own MP3 player registration sites. Sign up for $5 ($1/major label) and pay your piracy tax. :p

B

Buschmaster
Nov 15, 2006, 12:57 PM
I steal music.

But only when it's not available on iTunes. Companies really think they're losing out by joining with iTunes? Not with me, if you're not on iTunes I just got your stuff for free. If you are on iTunes I payed 99 cents for your song $1.99 for your TV show or whatever the price happens to be for your movie.

gekko513
Nov 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
Yeah, that makes me feel good about giving up filesharing all those years ago. :rolleyes: Maybe I'm going to have to start checking which label the music I buy is released with, and consider if it's really worth it.

joshwest
Nov 15, 2006, 01:05 PM
I think Steve should give Universal a little talking to like he did wal-mart and target'

calculus
Nov 15, 2006, 01:21 PM
OK then, who's for starting a class action against this bloke for defaming us all? I spend a fortune on CDs but I can tell you I will think very carefully before I buy anything else on Universal. Also in striking this deal are MS saying that it's OK to steal from the small labels? Imagine buying a zune And filling it with your favourite small label music and having to pay UMG for the privilege. This is just outrageous.

bartelby
Nov 15, 2006, 01:25 PM
This is just outrageous.


That's an understatement!!

calculus
Nov 15, 2006, 01:28 PM
That's an understatement!!

I am the master of understatement...

Aren't U2 signed to UMG? Maybe Steve could have a word with Bongo...

bartelby
Nov 15, 2006, 01:29 PM
I am the master of understatement...

Aren't U2 signed to UMG? Maybe Steve could have a word with Bongo...


Are U2 still on Island?

Metallica are also a UMG artist!

AoWolf
Nov 15, 2006, 01:31 PM
*Loads up limewire*

ATD
Nov 15, 2006, 01:35 PM
Anyone got Doug Morris's email address?

Remember, UMG did this too...



EDIT: I'll be sending an email to this address until I can find Mr Morris's!

communications@umusic.com


You could try

firstname.lastname@umusic.com

No guarantee that will work, I have not had any business dealings with the music side of Universal.

bartelby
Nov 15, 2006, 01:40 PM
You could try

firstname.lastname@umusic.com

No guarantee that will work, I have not had any business dealings with the music side of Universal.




DOH!

My rage blinded me!

It's worth a try!
Cheers

Shadow
Nov 15, 2006, 01:51 PM
Right, so now Universal are accusing me of stealing music I have legally bought? WTF?! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Screw Universal.

Scarlet Fever
Nov 15, 2006, 01:53 PM
from now on, the only illegally obtained music in my library will be from artists signed on the UMG label. ill pay for everything else.

STLSigns
Nov 15, 2006, 02:05 PM
Are U2 still on Island?

Metallica are also a UMG artist!
Did a Wiki for Universal Music Publishing Group (UMPG).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Music_Publishing_Group

U2 is "affiliated" with them, whatever that means ($$$$), and the list goes on.

One thing I know for sure is...
Raise taxes = people will pay less (Fudge the numbers)
More money for music = more for free (We will find it, trust me)

Moof1904
Nov 15, 2006, 02:09 PM
OK then, who's for starting a class action against this bloke for defaming us all? I spend a fortune on CDs but I can tell you I will think very carefully before I buy anything else on Universal. Also in striking this deal are MS saying that it's OK to steal from the small labels? Imagine buying a zune And filling it with your favourite small label music and having to pay UMG for the privilege. This is just outrageous.

I've got an idea for a class action suit:

According to industry executives, I don't buy the music when I buy a CD, i just buy the rights to listen to it. That means that if I bought an abum on vinyl in 1970, I already bought the rights to listen to that albmum's music, right? Then why did the industry charge me full price again when I bought a CD of the same album15 years later? The industry wrongly charges everyone full price for purchasing an album, ignoring those who have already paid for the rights to listen to the music.

Because they claim we're only purchasing the rights to the music, they owe a partial refund to everyone who bought an album on any media if that person already owned the album on the same or different media.

princealfie
Nov 15, 2006, 02:09 PM
Byebye Zune, even Creative didn't insult Apple nearly as badly... hmmm... :mad:

Spock
Nov 15, 2006, 02:11 PM
"We felt that any business that's built on the bedrock of music we should share in,"

So if I record a song in Garageband, I have to pay Universal a royalty? When did they get the patent on music?

2jaded2care
Nov 15, 2006, 02:13 PM
I would think this could be a legal precedent (or at least legal hassle) as far as M$ is concerned:

"At a time of transition for the music industry, Zune aims to be a leader in supporting artists and enabling the creative possibilities associated with connected entertainment. We look forward to working with the industry to make sure labels and the artists have a very bright future," said Bryan Lee, Corporate VP Microsoft Entertainment & Devices. "We believe that the music consumer will appreciate knowing that when they buy a Zune device, they are helping to support their favorite artists."

link: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061109/lath101.html?.v=56

So, if M$ is so altruistic about supporting artists, why just UMG artists? Why even just artists/companies who eventually sign a distribution deal with M$? Or would it be OK to just rip those other artists off?

I think this was an expedient move which should open a Pandora's box.

As far as being an industry precedent... depends on how many Zunes are sold.

calculus
Nov 15, 2006, 02:16 PM
U2 is "affiliated" with them, whatever that means ($$$$),

Not that I need a reason not to buy U2 records - it will just be more fun from now on!

Warbrain
Nov 15, 2006, 02:20 PM
Did a Wiki for Universal Music Publishing Group (UMPG).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Music_Publishing_Group

U2 is "affiliated" with them, whatever that means ($$$$), and the list goes on.

One thing I know for sure is...
Raise taxes = people will pay less (Fudge the numbers)
More money for music = more for free (We will find it, trust me)

Universal Music Group is the largest music corporation in the world. Island Def Jam, Interscope, and countless other labels are all under the umbrella of UMG. This is a corporation that will never change because they run the business and the other companies follow along. Don't be surprised if other corporations try doing this with DMP.

joshwest
Nov 15, 2006, 02:25 PM
i dont understand this why didnt he speak up 8-9 years ago when sony came out with those walman mp3 players? and all the ipod is a hard drive a os and ui, thats it. apple runs the market because like there computer they are simplistic, sleek and fairly affordable.. if he wants to get mad he should get mad a hard drive companies for one they are the people who make the core deivce where pirated info is stored. but he just makes himself look more like a piece of "cra- zune-ap" and knocks on apple

emotion
Nov 15, 2006, 02:35 PM
from now on, the only illegally obtained music in my library will be from artists signed on the UMG label. ill pay for everything else.

+1

all my music is legal. if i ever get tangled up in universals tax i'm going to "steal" as much of their stuff as possible.....not that I own much to do with them anyway but it's the principle here.

ChickenSwartz
Nov 15, 2006, 02:40 PM
So does this mean that if I buy a CD and play it on a CD player that hasn't paid royalties to the CD production company (or whatever) I am stealing music?

This is what this article sounded like to me.

I sure hope someone in the industry stands up and says how stupid this is. One of the stupidest things I have heard.

andiwm2003
Nov 15, 2006, 02:47 PM
So does this mean that if I buy a CD and play it on a CD player that hasn't paid royalties to the CD production company (or whatever) I am stealing music?

This is what this article sounded like to me.

I sure hope someone in the industry stands up and says how stupid this is. One of the stupidest things I have heard.

it would only be stupid if they don't get away with it. but they will.

most people won't know about this and they won't care about the dollar per zune (or any other player). the music/media industry has fees on hardware in other conuntries already and they got away with it. so why should it be different this time? from that point of view universal is just doing good business.:mad:

2jaded2care
Nov 15, 2006, 04:50 PM
Wonder if Sony Music will get the same deal from M$.

Oh, wait a minute. Sony also makes VAIO computers, and, obviously, "These devices are just repositories for stolen (software), and they all know it." Wouldn't Sony then have to start giving all software developers a cut of VAIO sales, in compensation for pirated software? Hmmm.

Queso
Nov 15, 2006, 04:54 PM
Only one way to respond to that:-

"Consumers accuse all Universal employees of being drug-addict paedophiles"

And they all know it ;)

gnasher729
Nov 15, 2006, 05:13 PM
This is no legal precedent. However, it is a industry precedent. Microsoft will likely do a similar deal with each major label group. they are NOT going to turn down money. Even if Zune tanks, microsoft wants to change the industry dynamics of Apple dictating terms to their partners.

This is all part of a MSFT strategy to screw with Apple

Apple will just ask Universal how much many they actually received from Microsoft. The way Zune sales are developing, I guess they will make a few thousand dollars.

Kolind
Nov 15, 2006, 05:25 PM
I don't think Microsoft is behind this deal, it's more likely that Universal forced them to pay that 1$/Zune. Microsoft don't gain anything from this deal as far as I can see. The Zune would be a guaranteed failure if people couldn't buy any music by Universal artists, so Universal could make MS do whatever they wanted.

Apple is on a completely different level, so Universal will not be able to do the same thing to them (even though they would probably like to).

sushi
Nov 15, 2006, 05:33 PM
Friends,

<snip>

Who will pay for this? The Consumers in form of expanded prices.

Screw Doug Morris! Screw UMG!
Well said.

UMG is trying to be greedy and it shows.

decksnap
Nov 15, 2006, 05:49 PM
If I literally have to PAY them for stolen music, well then I guess I'd better get some stolen music. One must assume it is now OK to 'steal' music because we are paying for it with this tax.

Go ahead kids... Doug says we can steal their music if we give him a dollar.

sushi
Nov 15, 2006, 05:52 PM
If I literally have to PAY them for stolen music, well then I guess I'd better get some stolen music. One must assume it is now OK to 'steal' music because we are paying for it with this tax.

Go ahead kids... Doug says we can steal their music if we give him a dollar.
Good point!

Some of us do not steal our music but pay for it. Now it seems we are all being accused of stealing music. What a nice thing to say. NOT!

deadline688
Nov 15, 2006, 06:20 PM
I don't think this guy actually believes this. I thinks he needs an excuse for Universal to get their grubby hands on more cash. He may also believe that saying this gives Universal more leverage when it comes time to renegotiate with Apple. I hope Apple laughs in their face and shows them the door. In that way, when the Zune fails, they will be out in the cold.

lozanoj83
Nov 15, 2006, 09:07 PM
Man this article is full of crap. Seriously, your accusing me of stealing music just because I own a iPod? So if i own a Zuni im not stealing music? So all those CD's i have piled up in my bookshelf, bought from stores and collected over my years.. your telling me i stole em all? Bullcrap.. seriously, if this keeps going on, I will steal music, not givin a rats a$$ to who i hurt, i just wanna hurt that idiot who said that.. jeesh insult your custumers and expect them to continue... you wish... at least when Sony DMG phone home thing came up, it didnt insult me, but this.. this is so much worse.. i hope they get shot in the foot with what they said...

just my two pence

Hobofuzz
Nov 15, 2006, 09:24 PM
Microsoft caved to Universal/BMI in order to get them onboard w/ Zune. Now Universal thinks they can extort Apple. This is the same crap that the music labels tried in the 70s when casette tapes and recorders became popular. They wanted a royalty paid on every blank casette! They got their way in Europe, where a royalty is paid to the European version of ASCAP for every blank CD and casette sold. Since the music companies lost that fight here, they have been waiting for a chance to get their revenge on all of us music pirates and our recording devices, and Microsoft gave it to them. Payola lives!

I wouldn't be surprised if good Ole Steve used his RDF to convince Universal that they owe Apple money for every iPod sold. I mean seriously, look how stupid the guy running UMG is.

iMeowbot
Nov 15, 2006, 09:30 PM
It looks as though Doug Morris actually singled out Zune for the thievery accucastion. He said "These devices are just repositories for stolen music" -- not those other devices ;)

Hobofuzz
Nov 15, 2006, 09:32 PM
"We felt that any business that's built on the bedrock of music we should share in,"

So if I record a song in Garageband, I have to pay Universal a royalty? When did they get the patent on music?

I agree with you completely. Universal is acting like they invented music