PS3 is an Open Platform

[XNine]

Yes, it's true. Wii and 360, eat your hearts out. While Sony had stated thatt Linux would be installable on the PS3 (and it's true), they have left it as an Open Platform. Under the PS3's settings, it gives you an option to "Install Other OS."

This possibly means that we'll see versions of Linux, Windows, and OS X (the latter two most likely hacked versions) installable on this machine.

http://playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

Just as well, the entire breakdown of the PS3's functions can be found here:
http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/index.html

Very interesting things they allow you to do with this console, including mass-storage devices (USB External HDD's), custom screensavers, naming the actual console itself, and many other things.

[SamIchi]

I use Videogame consoles for..... that's right videogames :eek:

But if that's your thing more power to you.

[Spanky Deluxe]

Yes, it's true. Wii and 360, eat your hearts out. While Sony had stated thatt Linux would be installable on the PS3 (and it's true), they have left it as an Open Platform. Under the PS3's settings, it gives you an option to "Install Other OS."

This possibly means that we'll see versions of Linux, Windows, and OS X (the latter two most likely hacked versions) installable on this machine.

http://playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

Just as well, the entire breakdown of the PS3's functions can be found here:
http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/index.html

Very interesting things they allow you to do with this console, including mass-storage devices (USB External HDD's), custom screensavers, naming the actual console itself, and many other things.

I have to admit, I find the Linux Clustering talk to be really exciting. I'm not such a fan of the Cell processor but that's just a silly personal taste - I'm not quite sure how well it'll be utilised by game developers. However, on the Linux side of things this could be fantastic. Its a potential number crunchinch monster!
The Cell processors eat numbers for breakfast and with proper programming so do GPUs and the memory used is of very high quality. These could be used for some serious scientific calculations when put into a cluster. The performance per machine is exptected to be about 100 gigaflops from what I hear. Coded to utilise the GPU could bring it up to 150 with good optimisations. A cluster of about 32 of those could theoretically put it on the Top 500 Supercomputers list for a cool $16000.
Am I the only one that thinks these things are a theoretical physicist's wet dream?

[yoda13]

I just want one to play games on, but I think its very cool...:D

[bobber205]

Wow.
What did sony make? They were serious about it being a computer.

[Spanky Deluxe]

Wow.
What did sony make? They were serious about it being a computer.

Yeah, it really is a beast when it comes to number crunching. Folding@Home are expecting (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33905) to achieve around 100 gigaflops per console. They have also been using ATI's X1800 line of cards to get substantially faster processing speeds. Although this doesn't work on nVidia cards right now it could potentially be done. Especially if developers are only trying to design software for *one* hardware platform. 100-150 gigaflops per console is actually realistic.
To put that in perspective, a 3Ghz Mac Pro can produce (http://www.itjungle.com/breaking/bn062606-story01.html) just under 50 gigaflops and that's a $3219 machine minimum.

Mac Pro: $64 per gigaflop
PS3: $4.99-$3.30 per gigaflop

The PS3 even has gigabit ethernet. Nice.

[Virtualball]

Of course its an open platform. It's six hundred dollars, it better let me install Linux, make me a sandwich, and stimulate me in ways more then just visual :p

[sikkinixx]

Of course its an open platform. It's six hundred dollars, it better let me install Linux, make me a sandwich, and stimulate me in ways more then just visual :p

It'll knock the fat out out too!!! :D


but seriously, I am happy that Sony got that right. I'm no Linux wiz or anything but still it peaks my interest, can;t wait to get one

[2nyRiggz]

I don't blame Sony for making the best and bringing it to the table. The console itself is very powerful and easy to use....I might add that its a looker:)

I can see myself putting linux on it and having a geeky good time.



Bless

[XNine]

I use Videogame consoles for..... that's right videogames :eek:

But if that's your thing more power to you.

It's a shame your field of view is so narrow.

This means it's a console, PC, media hub, scientific number cruncher all in one. The benefits far outweigh the "console" moniker. YOU may only use it for video games, but more and more people wills tart to install Linux on their PS3's, opening the market share for Linux just that much more. And since YDL is practically a no-configure setup, it's easier than ever for newbs to get into it.

The mere fact that you can already link bluetooth mice and keyboards to the console is nice in and of itself.

[2nyRiggz]

The mere fact that you can already link bluetooth mice and keyboards to the console is nice in and of itself.

Indeed...I'm very impressed about this so theres no complaining about how long it takes to type with the controller...excellent.



Bless

[GFLPraxis]

Excellent! I was starting to worry Sony's talk about Linux was just idle chat. By allowing the user to install their own OS they've opened it up to tons of fun homebrew...

[greatdevourer]

It's a shame your field of view is so narrow.

This means it's a console, PC, media hub, scientific number cruncher all in one. The benefits far outweigh the "console" moniker. YOU may only use it for video games, but more and more people wills tart to install Linux on their PS3's, opening the market share for Linux just that much more. And since YDL is practically a no-configure setup, it's easier than ever for newbs to get into it.

The mere fact that you can already link bluetooth mice and keyboards to the console is nice in and of itself. Speaking of narrow... this isn't going to be at all fast. Expect it to run roundabouts a 4-5yr old PC. 256MB RAM, and an in-order proc = bad

[Spanky Deluxe]

Speaking of narrow... this isn't going to be at all fast. Expect it to run roundabouts a 4-5yr old PC. 256MB RAM, and an in-order proc = bad

That's not really true now though, is it? Its a very fast system. I admit software will need to be written and compiled for it differently since its quite different from chips in the past but a 4-5 year old PC? Are you serious?

[GFLPraxis]

That's not really true now though, is it? Its a very fast system. I admit software will need to be written and compiled for it differently since its quite different from chips in the past but a 4-5 year old PC? Are you serious?

Normal software (i.e. not specifically re-coded from the ground up for Cell, just recompiled) will only use the Cell's main processor, the 3.2 GHz PPC...which is an in-order processor and will suck for general computing tasks. Plus the 256 MB of RAM too.

So for most regular software the PS3 will probably perform as a slower PC would (realisticly somewhere around the level of a couple year old Celeron w/256 MB of RAM and a RIDICULOUSLY powerful GPU). Except for software written SPECIFICLY for the PS3 (like homebrew), which should run very quickly.

And in all honesty, we'd all want to find PS3-designed homebrew anyway so we'd get better performing apps. But ports of stuff like OpenOffice won't run too fast.

[Dagless]

Speaking of narrow... this isn't going to be at all fast. Expect it to run roundabouts a 4-5yr old PC. 256MB RAM, and an in-order proc = bad

Ah yes. I was about to post "whoa, good going Sony", but if it's hindered by that then I don't know what to say. A mate just upgraded his PC (named Cranky) from 256mb to 1gb RAM, it's funny. the 256mb version just wouldn't well at all. Unless we're talking Wii style functionality of web browsing, maybe a bit of word processing.

[XNine]

Normal software (i.e. not specifically re-coded from the ground up for Cell, just recompiled) will only use the Cell's main processor, the 3.2 GHz PPC...which is an in-order processor and will suck for general computing tasks. Plus the 256 MB of RAM too.

So for most regular software the PS3 will probably perform as a slower PC would (realisticly somewhere around the level of a couple year old Celeron w/256 MB of RAM and a RIDICULOUSLY powerful GPU). Except for software written SPECIFICLY for the PS3 (like homebrew), which should run very quickly.

And in all honesty, we'd all want to find PS3-designed homebrew anyway so we'd get better performing apps. But ports of stuff like OpenOffice won't run too fast.


Correct me if I'm wrong, (cos I'm not a programmer) but wouldn't it be possible to compile apps to use the other cores of the processor? At 3.2 GHz, it'll be fast in and of itself, I would think. The RAM? yeah, it's small
but couldn't a fully utilized cell processor pick up the slack pretty well?

[islandman]

So what's the big deal? I don't think people will buy a PS3 JUST for this reason. If someone wants a PS3, they will buy it regardless. Same goes for the XBox or the wii.

[Haoshiro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, (cos I'm not a programmer) but wouldn't it be possible to compile apps to use the other cores of the processor? At 3.2 GHz, it'll be fast in and of itself, I would think. The RAM? yeah, it's small
but couldn't a fully utilized cell processor pick up the slack pretty well?

Unfortunately the answer to both those questions is no.

A simple recompile wouldn't help an app spawn no threads onto other processors. Especially in the case of the Cell, parts of the application (possibly siginificant parts) would need rewritten and modified to have specific sections of an application run on the SPEs (Cell isn't a multi-core processor, so this should be even more complicated).

The problem with the RAM is that you'll end up having to use virtual memory off the harddrive, no amount of CPU speed is going to make up for that. You will need the OS loaded in main memory, and applications will also need plenty of RAM to operate at optimal speeds. There just won't be any way around using virtual memory, and that is going to be extremely slow.

Very specifically crafted game software designed in very specific ways should be able to deal with these "limitations" because of the type of software they are, and because so much of their work is visual they will really be taking advantage of the GPU. Standard computing apps won't even care about the GPU though, so that won't help.

[XNine]

Unfortunately the answer to both those questions is no.

A simple recompile wouldn't help an app spawn no threads onto other processors. Especially in the case of the Cell, parts of the application (possibly siginificant parts) would need rewritten and modified to have specific sections of an application run on the SPEs (Cell isn't a multi-core processor, so this should be even more complicated).

The problem with the RAM is that you'll end up having to use virtual memory off the harddrive, no amount of CPU speed is going to make up for that. You will need the OS loaded in main memory, and applications will also need plenty of RAM to operate at optimal speeds. There just won't be any way around using virtual memory, and that is going to be extremely slow.

Very specifically crafted game software designed in very specific ways should be able to deal with these "limitations" because of the type of software they are, and because so much of their work is visual they will really be taking advantage of the GPU. Standard computing apps won't even care about the GPU though, so that won't help.

Very interesting indeed. Thank you.

[clayj]

Er... how does it behoove Sony in ANY WAY to sell PS3s for the purpose of being used as Linux boxes or nodes in a supercomputer network? Sony's already taking a huge loss on each console, and if people are buying them NOT to be used as gaming machines, then the attach rate on those sales will be ZERO and Sony will hemorrhage even more money.

[mkaake]

I don't think Sony cares much about the attatch rate just yet, or how much money they're loosing, just yet. What they're after is getting blu-ray into as many homes as possible, before HD-DVD gets a similar chance to take hold.

It's all about the format war, nothing more, IMHO. They could have easily done the PS3 with other formats, but this was by far the easiest way to try and help blu-ray succeed as the 'next gen' format.

Really not a bad business tactic, other than the extremely high cost required to pull it off. But if it does work, the payoff will be larger than the estimated $250-300 loss per console they're suffering right now.

[clayj]

Really not a bad business tactic, other than the extremely high cost required to pull it off. But if it does work, the payoff will be larger than the estimated $250-300 loss per console they're suffering right now.Let's put that in perspective: The 4 million PS3s Sony claims to be shipping before the end of the year therefore translates into a loss of $1 BILLION. Sony can't afford to lose money at that rate for very long...

[viccles]

Why would I buy a console to use it as a computer? I think most people are in the boat that they buy their consoles for games not computing

[GFLPraxis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, (cos I'm not a programmer) but wouldn't it be possible to compile apps to use the other cores of the processor? At 3.2 GHz, it'll be fast in and of itself, I would think. The RAM? yeah, it's small
but couldn't a fully utilized cell processor pick up the slack pretty well?

The Cell processor's extra processors only can do certain types of work, so it's not just a matter of recompiling, you have to re-write the program to assign the right tasks to the Cell's extra processors.

Remember the MHz Myth? GHz isn't a measurement of speed.

The 3.2 GHz processor in the Cell is the same as one of the three in the 360.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/7


So we'll use the 360's processor as an example:
On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming.

Still, there is some hope on that front. In the PC market where there are multiple processors to support, developers can't fine-tune games for a specific CPU. This heterogeneity of hardware especially hurts with platform-sensitive optimizations like branch hints, which is one reason they don't get used much. In contrast, with the Xenon, the hardware will be fixed, which means that programmers can go all-out in profiling and optimizing branchy game control, AI, and physics code using every trick in the book. Furthermore, console coders can also take heavy advantage of prefetching to overcome the Xenon's cache size limitations. So it's quite possible that as time goes on developers will find ways to get much better branch-intensive code performance out of the hardware. Just don't count on it in the first generation of games, though.

(since the Cell's mini-processors lack branch prediction it's about the same as the 360 for applications that can't utilize the mini-processors)

For general computing tasks (non-graphics), without a developer SPECIFICALLY optimizing the software for it, the processor is a lot slower than a normal processor (say, a 3.2 GHz Pentium 4).

However, homebrew written specificly for the PS3 should go blazing fast. But just recompiling regular programs will be slow. *regardless*, don't view me as PS3 bashing- I think it's awesome that you'll be able to recompile OpenOffice and use it on a PS3. Even if it runs at the speed of a 2 GHz Celeron, it'll be sweet to be able to do all your PC tasks hooked up to an HDTV. And when PS3-specific homebrew is written (say, an N64 emulator, or server software), it'll run blazing fast.

I applaud Sony for making that option available.

[blitzkrieg79]

Some actual interviews from WCIT about the Cell processor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV_95-rmYNo

Of note there is an actual demo of raytracing where the Cell processor is capable of rendering 20fps compared to 0.5fps of a G5. As much as Cell processor seems to be unimpressive, it's a revolutionary (not evolutionary) design, it will take time before programmers and compilers will be able to take full advantage of it but any way you look at it, Cell is a blueprint for future processor design, just read a bit about future Intel and AMD processor designs and incorporation of GPU. Come to think of it, We are kind of going back in time to the Amiga/Atari ST days where those architectures introduced multimedia (specialized chipsets) designs years before PCs did.

[zero2dash]

While it may not be as technologically advanced, you can also run Linux builds on a $20 Dreamcast system.

$500 Ps3 or $20 Dreamcast? Hmm decisions decisions :p

[Haoshiro]

Some actual interviews from WCIT about the Cell processor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV_95-rmYNo

Of note there is an actual demo of raytracing where the Cell processor is capable of rendering 20fps compared to 0.5fps of a G5. As much as Cell processor seems to be unimpressive, it's a revolutionary (not evolutionary) design, it will take time before programmers and compilers will be able to take full advantage of it but any way you look at it, Cell is a blueprint for future processor design, just read a bit about future Intel and AMD processor designs and incorporation of GPU. Come to think of it, We are kind of going back in time to the Amiga/Atari ST days where those architectures introduced multimedia (specialized chipsets) designs years before PCs did.

Raytracing seems like something Cell would be good at, maybe we'll see a ray-traced game sometime? I'd be interested in seeing that, for sure. :)

[Dagless]

While it may not be as technologically advanced, you can also run Linux builds on a $20 Dreamcast system.

$500 Ps3 or $20 Dreamcast? Hmm decisions decisions :p

OR, if you want to go for the HD edition, a £100 5 year old PC will do. or a £450 PS3 :cool:

Nah, it's nice they're doing this. But like a lot of Sony recently - it feels like a tacked on, last minute thing to snare different markets.

[FleurDuMal]

While it may not be as technologically advanced, you can also run Linux builds on a $20 Dreamcast system.

$500 Ps3 or $20 Dreamcast? Hmm decisions decisions :p

Plus with the Dreamcast, at least there's something worth playing.




Oh Shenmue, when will you return :(

[GFLPraxis]

Some actual interviews from WCIT about the Cell processor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV_95-rmYNo

Of note there is an actual demo of raytracing where the Cell processor is capable of rendering 20fps compared to 0.5fps of a G5. As much as Cell processor seems to be unimpressive, it's a revolutionary (not evolutionary) design, it will take time before programmers and compilers will be able to take full advantage of it but any way you look at it, Cell is a blueprint for future processor design, just read a bit about future Intel and AMD processor designs and incorporation of GPU. Come to think of it, We are kind of going back in time to the Amiga/Atari ST days where those architectures introduced multimedia (specialized chipsets) designs years before PCs did.

Oh, Cell is CLEARLY better than a G5 for graphics; however, that's usually what you use GPU's for.

For general computing tasks and for handling calculations like AI and stuff, Cell isn't nearly that much faster. But for raytracing, certainly, it'll blow away a G5.

[XNine]

Plus with the Dreamcast, at least there's something worth playing.

I beg to differ, I owned one for three days before I hucked that piece of ****. Even the Game Cube lasted longer in my possession. That's how ****** the dreamcast was.

As far as the youtube video goes, that's pretty interesting stuff. Though, I wonder, is the RAM in the PS3 soldered in? I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade that later on....

[greatdevourer]

I beg to differ, I owned one for three days before I hucked that piece of ****. Even the Game Cube lasted longer in my possession. That's how ****** the dreamcast was.

As far as the youtube video goes, that's pretty interesting stuff. Though, I wonder, is the RAM in the PS3 soldered in? I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade that later on.... Almost certainly, and changing it would probably make the system hate you

[Haoshiro]

I beg to differ, I owned one for three days before I hucked that piece of ****. Even the Game Cube lasted longer in my possession. That's how ****** the dreamcast was.

As far as the youtube video goes, that's pretty interesting stuff. Though, I wonder, is the RAM in the PS3 soldered in? I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade that later on....

Well that's telling in and of itself, you owned it for 3 day! LOL. :rolleyes: Man, I bet you were able to play every game and determine they were all crap in that amount of time! hahaha.

Speaking of GameCube, more and more it's becoming my favorite system. I have a nice collection of 17 games currently, almost matching my Dreamcast collection (19)... although I did just buy a lot of 189 Dreamcast games, so it wins for the forseeable future, heh.

[aholden12592]

so does all this mean I could (for example) install Battlefield 2 on my ps3?

[Spanky Deluxe]

Speaking of GameCube, more and more it's becoming my favorite system. I have a nice collection of 17 games currently, almost matching my Dreamcast collection (19)... although I did just buy a lot of 189 Dreamcast games, so it wins for the forseeable future, heh.


189 Dreamcast games, holy cow!!

I love the Gamecube, from my point of view it had all of the games that I wanted. Zelda, Mario, Timesplitters, Mariokart, Super Monkey Ball, Starfox, Starfox Adventures, not to mention the Sonic games (the mega collection). The only games I was interested in on the PS2 or the Xbox were Grand Tourismo, Grand Theft Auto off the top of my head and my PC plays GTA far nicer than the PS2 could.
The only thing the 'cube lacked which I really liked in the Xbox was all the Linux stuff. The Linux media centre stuff paved the way for the Xbox 360's media centre functionality.

[zap2]

It's a shame your field of view is so narrow.

This means it's a console, PC, media hub, scientific number cruncher all in one. The benefits far outweigh the "console" moniker. YOU may only use it for video games, but more and more people wills tart to install Linux on their PS3's, opening the market share for Linux just that much more. And since YDL is practically a no-configure setup, it's easier than ever for newbs to get into it.

The mere fact that you can already link bluetooth mice and keyboards to the console is nice in and of itself.

While I agree Linux is cool...I think people are overplaying the Linux card simply put not many people know enough about Linux. Heck I'm sure there are people who have never heard of Apple until iPod came out. Linux is just such a niche market...Linux won't move many PS3. Most systems had a type of Linux(this one is a better one and supported) but still few people installed it

[Spanky Deluxe]

While I agree Linux is cool...I think people are overplaying the Linux card simply put not many people know enough about Linux. Heck I'm sure there are people who have never heard of Apple until iPod came out. Linux is just such a niche market...Linux won't move many PS3. Most systems had a type of Linux(this one is a better one and supported) but still few people installed it

I agree that most people won't give a crap. For me though, this is a big thing. If I were a researcher with a budget I'd be very tempted to buy a cluster of these puppies (when they're more available), install Linux and see what I can do but that's just me.

If a researcher were to have a budget, they could get say ten of these, install the linux cluster software, spend a few weeks fiddleing around to test them out and see if they how well they work for number crunching with the researcher's software and then sell them for a very small loss (I'm talking when they're widely available) if they're not up to snuff. Things like servers have a very poor resale value compared to games consoles. Man I wish I had money like that to throw around!! Just for the sake of doing it!

[2nyRiggz]

Oh Shenmue, when will you return :(

Shenmue sucked...sorry buddy. I'm hating on it because I spent $30 on it and played it twice with all the sucking that went on in that game.



Bless

[daze]

Glad to hear the PS3 is an open platform. But why prey tell is the PSP so closed? Sony ought to make both platforms open.

[thugpoet22]

Why would I buy a console to use it as a computer? I think most people are in the boat that they buy their consoles for games not computing

I guess i would have to agree on some level but just think of having a machine that has options is a great thing. Nothing simply has one function anymore. There was once a time when if you were playing a game and got far you couldn't even save it. Cell phones are now also mp3 players. Some cars can park themselves. And i could go on but i know you get the idea.

I think Sony made a great move. All they really need to do is get more produced in time for Christmas. People will buy them even for that high price. People were standing in line for days hoping to get one. Its not the price its the supply thats killing them. Hopefully game developers wont find it too hard to make games for the system because thats what really sells the system. Even if the system can play the old games or be used as a computer or even a central media hub thats not the current sales pitch.

[2ndPath]

Er... how does it behoove Sony in ANY WAY to sell PS3s for the purpose of being used as Linux boxes or nodes in a supercomputer network? Sony's already taking a huge loss on each console, and if people are buying them NOT to be used as gaming machines, then the attach rate on those sales will be ZERO and Sony will hemorrhage even more money.

I don't think many people will buy the PS3 and not use them at least partially for gaming. I don't think they will be a big thing in Supercomputing. For that it should be kept in mind that a susbstantial fraction of the cost of the PS3 is attributed to the Blueray drive, which is not needed in a Supercomputing setup. There probably will be Cell based products taylored to the needs of this kind of computing (without Blueray and with more Ram for example).

[Dagless]

Sony made a great move? wrong.

The move had already been made. The Commodore Amiga was used as a computer and games console. My dad used it as word processor, I used it for a games console and art machine (Deluxe Paint :D ). Had an OS and everything. The true console computer.

The ironic thing is I would say the Amiga is the best gaming machine I've used. I mean at the time it was leaps and bounds above what the NES/SNES/Mega Drive and co were doing in terms of graphics and processing power (ruled supreme in sound, though). But it did terribly in the market. Commodore went bust.

Sony looks to be basing the PS3 on the MicroComputers of yesteryear. Whilst they did bring rise to the bedroom coder and were isanely powerful - they did not cost 450 quid! 299 for mine :)

[Chone]

Sony made a great move? wrong.

The move had already been made. The Commodore Amiga was used as a computer and games console. My dad used it as word processor, I used it for a games console and art machine (Deluxe Paint :D ). Had an OS and everything. The true console computer.

The ironic thing is I would say the Amiga is the best gaming machine I've used. I mean at the time it was leaps and bounds above what the NES/SNES/Mega Drive and co were doing in terms of graphics and processing power (ruled supreme in sound, though). But it did terribly in the market. Commodore went bust.

Sony looks to be basing the PS3 on the MicroComputers of yesteryear. Whilst they did bring rise to the bedroom coder and were isanely powerful - they did not cost 450 quid! 299 for mine :)

Ever heard of the word inflation? If you take in consideration what 299$ was worth in 1995 and what 499$ is worth today, PS1 and PS3 end up being right around the same value, I bet 299 for your Amiga was a lot money back then.

I always said PS3's problem is not price, anyone who says PS3 is overpriced at 499$ but Xbox360 is priced just right at 399$ is an ass seriously.

That being said, I think Sony made a mistake giving it only 256MB of system RAM, they should have made it unified like the 360, Linux on a PS3 will serve little purpose, other than to kill 2 birds with one stone (hey at 500$, the price/performance as a computer is not bad and becomes a great value when you factor in games) so you can have a computer to write email, word processing, stuff like that while you get a games console.

In any case I think the hardware choice Sony made with the PS3 is not right for general computing right now and is not right for video games, at least not right now. I think Xbox360 will once again, bring superior graphical quality in consoles this gen. (which is pathetic for Sony, who brings a console one year later that doesn't compare to the current console?)

And for the guy who asked about Battlefield 2... NO, first of all Battlefield 2 is not even supported on Linux (just for servers), even if it was performance would be completely hedious for any modern game if it even ran on the PS3.

[GFLPraxis]

Ever heard of the word inflation? If you take in consideration what 299$ was worth in 1995 and what 499$ is worth today, PS1 and PS3 end up being right around the same value, I bet 299 for your Amiga was a lot money back then.

Ahhh, the inflation crowd.

What matters is not the absolute value of the cash, but how much the products were priced compared to competitors. When competitors start at $249 and $299, $499 is a whole heckuvalot.


Also, the only systems that cost more than the PS3 post-inflation are the ones that bankrupted their companies (3DO) and/or failed miserably outside of arcades (Neo Geo).

[Dagless]

Even with inflation the Amiga cost £1000 less than a PC at the time. You can get a PC now for much less than a PS3 now. Financially it was a toss up between a Mega Drive and an Amiga so the prices must have been very similar indeed.

[greatdevourer]

To prove what I said earlier about extremely sucky performance - http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=11731119&forum_id=109161

(http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fforen%2Fgo.shtml%3Fread%3D1%26msg_id%3D11731119 %26forum_id%3D109161&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools for translated version)

I said 4 or 5 year old PC, and I'll admit, I was wrong - 6 to 7 years old :D

[madmax_2069]

granted the PS3 is a sweet system, but i still wont buy anything from sony cause what they did to lik-sang. the same goes to MS if they did it to them and the same goes to nintendo but it wasn't it was SONY that did it and that is why i will never buy a SONY product. im going for the Wii cause the Wii wont break your bank to buy one

[Dagless]

Well you can't blame Sony, their profits are massively down and they need to get money from somewhere. No tax-back from the EU, that would have netted them millions too. They might have seen Lik Sang as a way to make some money, they're already charging the earth for a video games console. I GOT IT!

Is this the "discipline" they wanted to teach us? :D

[madmax_2069]

Well you can't blame Sony, their profits are massively down and they need to get money from somewhere. No tax-back from the EU, that would have netted them millions too. They might have seen Lik Sang as a way to make some money, they're already charging the earth for a video games console. I GOT IT!

Is this the "discipline" they wanted to teach us? :D


well if you look at it that way they just hurt them self's a bit by doing this cause there is one less reseller now to sell there product to. all in all they did more damage than anything else. cause lik-sang bought hardware from sony to sell and sony got there money. what sony went at lik-sang for was bogus and the ruling was also bogus. now sony will only get a set amount of money from lik-sang and then no more money will be made from them cause they are no longer to buy stuff from sony which could have made them more money in the long run than just a one time only money flow

[popper1]

To prove what I said earlier about extremely sucky performance - http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=11731119&forum_id=109161

(http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fforen%2Fgo.shtml%3Fread%3D1%26msg_id%3D11731119 %26forum_id%3D109161&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools for translated version)

I said 4 or 5 year old PC, and I'll admit, I was wrong - 6 to 7 years old :D

its more interesting that that url has been doing the rounds and its inacurate in that its not based on any tech POV, for that and a far better example of at least trying to test some standard CPU options take a look at this url.

http://www.geekpatrol.ca/2006/11/playstation-3-performance/#comment-7428

also keep in mind its not using any form of Altivec/VMX/Vector unit (as found in the PS3/Cell)as its not coded for that and NO CURRENT PPC linux even tryed to use the standard Altivec unit thats found in this Cell CPU, for that you as a coder need to look at the likes of
http://freevec.org/
"About libfreevec

libfreevec is a free (LGPL) library with hand-optimized replacement routines for GLIBC, such as memcpy(), strlen(), etc. These routines have been written specifically to take advantage of the AltiVec unit (a.k.a Velocity Engine or VMX), and will only work on processors that include this unit. This means they will not work on older processors, such as 603, 604, 750 (G3) or the POWER family of CPUs.
Check the Features page for more details on the exact set of functions that are included, with comments and rough speed gain estimates, and the FAQ for additional information about using the library itself.

News

Version 0.8 released! Download...

The author writes on the history of libfreevec:

"I have been a PowerPC user for many years, but I had never had the opportunity to work with a G4 processor until late September 2004. At that time, I attended various AltiVec tutorials/seminars at the Euro SNDF show which were held by Dr Sergei Larin and Chuck Corley from Freescale. I would like to thank both of them as they provided myself with the inspiration to work on the AltiVec engine. During said seminars, I was shown how much performance is hidden in this small and underestimated CPU. In times when everyone seems to be focused on 64-bit technology, it is no surprise that some people dismiss the G4 processor as outdated technology. If only you knew...

Thanks to the support by Genesi and Freescale, I was given an Open Desktop Workstation for development purposes at the show and was highly motivated to do software development on this platform. Soon after the seminars ended, I started researching for source code on programming the AltiVec unit and its applications. To my surprise, I discovered that the G4 vector engine is basically unused by Linux itself which happens to be my platform of choice whereas it speeds up many system components in MacOS X.

Why is this so? I have not found a definite answer to this question. One possible reason could be that AltiVec was originally designed as a multimedia extension and for processing media data. While this simple fact cannot be denied, it is still no convincing argument why this exciting technology has been neglected and not been used for more ordinary tasks which might increase the performance of the whole system.

For example, did you know that you can do byte swapping with AltiVec 7 times faster than with scalar code? Or that it is possible to sort integers and floats 4 times faster with the help of AltiVec? Were you aware that it helps to do string searching faster? Memory hashing gets upto 7 times faster. The list could just go on and on...

With these things in mind, I was determined to take an active role in allowing Linux and other operating systems to profit from AltiVec on a system wide scale. With the financial help of Genesi, I was able to start work on libfreevec which is presented to you on this website. libfreevec is a library with many common glibc routines, rewritten and optimized to use the vector engine found in the G4/G4+ PowerPC CPUs by Freescale. These processors are most commonly used in Apple Mac computers and the Genesi Pegasos II Open Desktop Workstation (ODW). In addition to the glibc routines, it also includes custom routines which were designed to speed up various other performance-critical tasks. For example, it includes special AltiVec optimized versions of various string and memory functions from libstring which is part of the MySQL package.

Eventually, I hope to see the code being integrated in glibc so that the whole Linux system may benefit from AltiVec when run on the right hardware. The current version is released under the terms of the free LGPL license and I sincerly hope that it will enable many interested developers to give a performance boost to their applications for the PowerPC platform."

Konstantinos Margaritis "

[popper1]

if anyone wants to try and advance the linux PS3 PPC/Altivec options then my best advice right now is to go over to http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=50
and hang out with the very talented PPC linux people and devs you will find there.

its because of many of these people that you infact have so many current mainstream PPC linux distro's in the first place as they port and work with the pegasos and newer PPC based hardware coming to market.

to learn and lend a hand for Altivec and indeed learning to use the PS3 multicores (Lu_zero commited some PPC code for you to play around with as a starting point) then read and ask question in this thread if your serious about trying
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=387
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=23

just some pointers to begin with.

theres also the possibility that these cores can take the place of the GPU for much of the Gfx work before its written to the framebuffer etc, take and ask questions and remember to have fun , thats whats its all about after all....

PS
is there no PPC mac tech people in this thread/board to help the new x86 users coming to PS3 and so on to learn perhaps for the first time, how clock for clock the Altivec is faster than MMX* , and given that the ps3 Cell Altivec unit is running at 3.2 (and the 360 for that matter, if they manage to open it up one day, at least for the first 32 registers) it should be able to give even the newest x86 chips mmx parts a good run for their money?.

and thats before the linux devs get anywere near coding up some working SPUs/OpenGL code....

[popper1]

Oh, Cell is CLEARLY better than a G5 for graphics; however, that's usually what you use GPU's for.

For general computing tasks and for handling calculations like AI and stuff, Cell isn't nearly that much faster. But for raytracing, certainly, it'll blow away a G5.

would you care to expand on that, and explain why the likes of the AI and
physics cards are all based on vectorising IC's parts such as Altivec/SIMD tech along side GPU and PPU parts?.

[blitzkrieg79]

To prove what I said earlier about extremely sucky performance - http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=11731119&forum_id=109161

(http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fforen%2Fgo.shtml%3Fread%3D1%26msg_id%3D11731119 %26forum_id%3D109161&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools for translated version)

I said 4 or 5 year old PC, and I'll admit, I was wrong - 6 to 7 years old :D

That link provides no depth what so ever, someone just wrote few sentences without going in to details, and no one is saying that the PPU unit in Cell is some uber processor, in fact, I wouldn't even argue about CELLs lack of performance if all the SPUs were just sitting idle. The article said that it was a "quick test" meaning no optimizations for CELL and considering how radically different the architecture is, that is not a surprise that it sucked.

What makes the CELL special is that it is a hybrid processor, combining a general purpose unit with GPU like shader units WHICH are general purpose computing capable and a whole lot easier to program for than dedicated GPUs. I don't think that STI would spend over $400 million (over 3 years of development) on a processor design that equals to an 800Mhz processor.

[greatdevourer]

That link provides no depth what so ever, someone just wrote few sentences without going in to details, and no one is saying that the PPU unit in Cell is some uber processor, in fact, I wouldn't even argue about CELLs lack of performance if all the SPUs were just sitting idle. The article said that it was a "quick test" meaning no optimizations for CELL and considering how radically different the architecture is, that is not a surprise that it sucked.

What makes the CELL special is that it is a hybrid processor, combining a general purpose unit with GPU like shader units WHICH are general purpose computing capable and a whole lot easier to program for than dedicated GPUs. I don't think that STI would spend over $400 million (over 3 years of development) on a processor design that equals to an 800Mhz processor. 1) They're not shader units. Cell is a CPU, not a GPU. It doesn't have Shader Units, Hardware T&L, Pixel Pipelines or any of that. They're SIMDs, just like the "velocity engine" (VMX, AltiVec)
2) Neither would I, and neither would they - STi have nothing to do with it
3) Regardless of how fast it may be if fully optimised, 256MB RAM and zero L2 Cache sucks major ass and will bottleneck whatever it does

[blitzkrieg79]

1) They're not shader units. Cell is a CPU, not a GPU. It doesn't have Shader Units, Hardware T&L, Pixel Pipelines or any of that. They're SIMDs, just like the "velocity engine" (VMX, AltiVec)
2) Neither would I, and neither would they - STi have nothing to do with it
3) Regardless of how fast it may be if fully optimised, 256MB RAM and zero L2 Cache sucks major ass and will bottleneck whatever it does

1) I never said that CELL was a GPU, I just compared the SPE units to GPUs as performance wise they are comparable. They are SIMDs but they are independent units that are general purpose computing capable.

2) Ummmmm STI as in Sony Toshiba IBM alliance.
http://www-5.ibm.com/de/pressroom/cebit/pressreleases/060307_1en.html

3) Thing about the CELL that people do not understand is that IBM from ground up made CELL to be versatile and easily modifiable to specific needs. I am more then sure that if Apple would request a more general purpose computing CELL, IBM would be able to take out few SPEs and create a more powerful PPU unit. CELL is not just one processor (Although right now PS3 version is the only one widely available on the market but others are coming such as Mercury and IBM), it's a hybrid, highly modifiable architecture.