New Apple Mouse and Keyboard... Soon [Archive]

inkswamp

Apr 27, 2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by MacAztec
Oh wait, I want to get info on this item

<control+click------get info>

or just right click----get info

The second option is more simple, and Apple likes to be simple...

How about Apple+I? Is that not simple enough?

Let's not forget that Apple is the company that produces the best interfaces out there. Like it or not, the multi-button mouse is just bad design and the reason Apple stays away from it (IMO) is that they know it's bad design. I expect that if they ever do release a multi-button mouse, it will be done in such a way that everyone who uses a multi-button mouse will look at it and say "Now why haven't these things been done this way all along?" That takes time and money to research and develop. The control+click menu was put there for convenience, but it's not a built-in part of the system (i.e., not reinforced by the presence of a second button) so that problem doesn't occur (yet.)

There should be no reason for multiple buttons and contextual menus, and the presence of multiple buttons gives way to lazy interface decisions. All functionality in a program should be accessible through its menus (and by extension, its key commands.) What the multiple button mouse leads to is horrible interface problems. Ever used a Windows machine and had to hunt endlessly to find out where you had to right-click to find the thing you're seeking because the developer failed to put it in the menu bar? I've dealt with that enough on Windows and don't want that kind of lousy interface design infecting my Mac.

Just IMO. Frankly, after having dealt with the half-baked crud that passes for the Windows interface for so long, the Mac's simplified approach works for me. I'm not eager to see Apple mess with it to please a bunch of people who have been taught to expect bad design.

LethalWolfe

Apr 27, 2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by inkswamp
How about Apple+I? Is that not simple enough?

Let's not forget that Apple is the company that produces the best interfaces out there. Like it or not, the multi-button mouse is just bad design and the reason Apple stays away from it (IMO) is that they know it's bad design. I expect that if they ever do release a multi-button mouse, it will be done in such a way that everyone who uses a multi-button mouse will look at it and say "Now why haven't these things been done this way all along?" That takes time and money to research and develop. The control+click menu was put there for convenience, but it's not a built-in part of the system (i.e., not reinforced by the presence of a second button) so that problem doesn't occur (yet.)

There should be no reason for multiple buttons and contextual menus, and the presence of multiple buttons gives way to lazy interface decisions. All functionality in a program should be accessible through its menus (and by extension, its key commands.) What the multiple button mouse leads to is horrible interface problems. Ever used a Windows machine and had to hunt endlessly to find out where you had to right-click to find the thing you're seeking because the developer failed to put it in the menu bar? I've dealt with that enough on Windows and don't want that kind of lousy interface design infecting my Mac.

Just IMO. Frankly, after having dealt with the half-baked crud that passes for the Windows interface for so long, the Mac's simplified approach works for me. I'm not eager to see Apple mess with it to please a bunch of people who have been taught to expect bad design.

Why should I have to mouse up to the menu or perform keyboard gymnastics just to get info and/or maniuplate the "ojbect" my mouse is currently resting on?

Rt click->Show info vs. click->perform excessive movement to hit command+i.

Different needs for different users but I find the 5 completely programmable buttons and scroll wheel on my mouse d@mn near indispensable when using FCP, PS, and AE. And very convient for use w/"everyday" applications. Although I think the Pro mouse looks much better than mine I don't use it 'cause, IMO, it's inferior to multi-button mice. But my biggest pet peeve is that even on the highest "speed" setting is still way too slow for my taste.

Lethal

shadowfax

Apr 27, 2003, 01:28 AM

god, ok, 1 button is fine, but for goodness' sake, they are idiots if they don't add some kind of scroller.

ok, so last weeek we had iBook updates... this monday we're looking at possibly iPod updates and of course the new music service. so maybe the week after that we will see the new eMac, and maybe a new keyboard/mouse that same day or the next week?

question: would apple make a big deal about a new mouse/keyboard? like, would it poossibly get it's own release date?

Arcady

Apr 27, 2003, 01:32 AM

They should offer different mice when you buy a Mac. I know a lot of Windows users (and Mac users now) who won't use anything but a 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel.

So sell the Mac without a mouse, and let the buyer choose a 1, 2, 3, 5 or whatever button mouse. Apple must have some clue about people wanting a scrollwheel and a second button, since they built the software into OS X.

Apple used to sell Macs without a keyboard, so you could choose your own... but they always gave you that retarded mouse.

I have a box full of stupid one button mice that nobody wants. Get a clue, Apple!

porovaara

Apr 27, 2003, 01:35 AM

He was a big fan of the multi-button mouse on NeXTSTEP.

Abstract

Apr 27, 2003, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by meghop
Two-button mice annoy me to no end. I am one of those people that always ends up right clicking when I mean to left click or vice versa. I like to control-click because I have to make a purposeful move in order to do it, can't hit it by accident and have those annoying menus pop up when you don't want them.

Hahaha!!! That's funny. :) Well, it is unless you're dyslexic. If you are, then sorry. But if you're not, then...........well, hehe ;)

How about Apple+I? Is that not simple enough?

....What the multiple button mouse leads to is horrible interface problems. Ever used a Windows machine and had to hunt endlessly to find out where you had to right-click to find the thing you're seeking because the developer failed to put it in the menu bar? (NOPE :)) I've dealt with that enough on Windows and don't want that kind of lousy interface design infecting my Mac.

.... Frankly, after having dealt with the half-baked crud that passes for the Windows interface for so long, the Mac's simplified approach works for me.

That's pretty funny too. :D How is "Apple + I" any different than the right-click, other than that it's more difficult to do? The Mac's simplified approach is to make it more physically difficult to do? Sure, if your left hand needs the exercise, then go ahead.

"In order to simplify the process, we will not allow you to scroll down the page with a wheel. I say we do it the old fashioned way, just like I had to do it. Mwahahaha" ---- Ol' Man Steve Jobs.

Head Wound

Apr 27, 2003, 01:44 AM

What in the hell are you guys talking about???

Apple sells a WIDE VARIETY of multi-button mouses with scroll wheels! They have for a LONG TIME! Just look on the site. Theres mouses by every well known input device maker I know of, and you can easily add them to any purchase.

I use a multi-button Logitech mouse with every mac I use. I can't be without the right-click and scroll wheel.

You guys are SERIOUSLY out of touch...

Head Wound

Apr 27, 2003, 01:47 AM

...and if anyone here thinks that Apple would ever reduce the price and give you an option to not get a mouse with your mac, your crazy! There is not going to be any benefit to such an option, the mac will still cost the same with or without the Apple mouse.

AndrewMT

Apr 27, 2003, 01:49 AM

Has anyone considered that Apple would probably loose notebook sales temporarily if they released a two button mouse? I wouldn't buy the $3300 17" powerbook with one lousy button if I knew a two button trackpad was coming out in the next revision.

Also, the revised mouse could still be one large button with the center of the scrolling circle acting as the second button.

vniow

Apr 27, 2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by meghop

Also, I like the Apple Pro mouse because you basically just mash with your hand.

Well that's exactly why I hate the Pro mouse, it may look nice and be egromonically designed, but I'm always accidentally clicking by pressing down on the mouse even a little too hard because I'm used to pressing down on an actual button, not the entire mouse.

I work with lots of computer newbies, and boy, putting two buttons on mice just confuses the heck out of them - much of the mainstream is still getting the hang of ONE button, lol.

I've worked with quite a few computer newbies myself and not one of them has any trouble figuring out the second button, they have a much harder time adapting to using two hands to do the function of one on every other computer but the Mac.

Originally posted by inkswamp

Let's not forget that Apple is the company that produces the best interfaces out there.

Matter of opinion.

Like it or not, the multi-button mouse is just bad design and the reason Apple stays away from it (IMO) is that they know it's bad design.

Bad design?

More than one button on a mouse a bad design?

I would think with all the extra functionality that comes with a multi-button mouse would make it a superior design no?

I use Cocoa gestures a lot in Safari and Camino and while I can get by using the keyboard on my iBook for things like that, when I plug in my very basic Logitech wheelmouse, I just change some of the options and my browsing is greatly improved and much more efficient.

Also to get simple contextual menus, I have to do more work (although I will admit its not a lot) to make them appear when I only have one button to work with and while that's not a big deal on a notebook, on a desktop its more trouble since I keep my keyboard and mouse somewhat distant and if I had a second button on the trackpad of my iBook, I could to things quite a bit faster vs ctrl clicking.

I expect that if they ever do release a multi-button mouse, it will be done in such a way that everyone who uses a multi-button mouse will look at it and say "Now why haven't these things been done this way all along?"

I completely agree with this, if anybody can revolutionize something as simple and essential to basic functionality as the mouse, its Apple.

That takes time and money to research and develop. The control+click menu was put there for convenience, but it's not a built-in part of the system (i.e., not reinforced by the presence of a second button) so that problem doesn't occur (yet.)

Huh?

Ctrl-clicking and contextual menus are a built in part of the system, its built into the Finder, just about every app, document file, just about everything, I believe that they can be put to a better use if a multiple button mouse was used.

There should be no reason for multiple buttons and contextual menus, and the presence of multiple buttons gives way to lazy interface decisions. All functionality in a program should be accessible through its menus (and by extension, its key commands.)

Isn't that what contextual menus do though?
Allow you to access the functionality in a program through its menus?

When I got my first Mac, the idea that the menu bar was application specific was a bit confusing at first but I learned to like it and find that it tidies up the interface but I never got used to the idea of ctrl-clicking, coming from a long-time Windows user, I found it frustrating to use and adapt to and I plug in a wheelmouse into my iBook whenever I can because I can get a lot more functionality with it.

What the multiple button mouse leads to is horrible interface problems. Ever used a Windows machine and had to hunt endlessly to find out where you had to right-click to find the thing you're seeking because the developer failed to put it in the menu bar? I've dealt with that enough on Windows and don't want that kind of lousy interface design infecting my Mac.

Depends on the app, I've used a few that had most of their functionality almost soley by contextual menus which was really frustrating, I preferred the ones that were a little of both, all of the essential ones in the main menu and the most commonly used ones (like cut, copy, paste, etc..) in the contextual menu which made for a much more productive environment for me at least sice I have a decent sized screen on my PC and my mouse would have to travel a ways in order to get some of the functionality which would otherwise be there at the touch of a button.

Just IMO. Frankly, after having dealt with the half-baked crud that passes for the Windows interface for so long, the Mac's simplified approach works for me. I'm not eager to see Apple mess with it to please a bunch of people who have been taught to expect bad design.

Which is why Apple needs to think of the switchers here.

When I bought a Powermac awhile ago, one of the first things I did was put the Pro Mouse in a drawer because I couldn't stand it.
I immediately plugged in a spare Logitech wheelmouse and all was well.
The rest of my family (also long time Windows users) much preferred it over the Pro mouse as well because they could to things a lot easier than they could by using only one button.

Apple's mice are nothing but useless pieces of plastic to me, I'd rather use a $20 wheelmouse that you can buy at Wam-a-lart than any of Apple's.

bwawn

Apr 27, 2003, 01:54 AM

Apple leaves mice with one button because it's less confusing, and to be honest, that's a good thing. I've seen too many people who have no idea why there's more than one button and get the right and left clicks mixed up.

Apple can easily pull off a two-button mouse though without confusing people any more than they would otherwise.

I haven't read the patents for that "rotary mouse," but if Apple were to make something like a standard scroll-wheel mouse now and, instead of treating the pushing down of the scroll wheel as a third button, just make that the second button, they would be just fine. Make it exactly like the pro mouse now (the whole thing is one button), put a scroll wheel near the top that you can also click down on (like most scroll wheel mice these days), and there you have it. A two-button mouse, with a scrollwheel, that won't confuse those who don't like having more than one button.

[edit] Darn you, AndrewMT! Beat me to it! (Plus you mentioned it related to the new mouse patent too. Topped me in every way.)

meghop

Apr 27, 2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by Abstract
Hahaha!!! That's funny. :) Well, it is unless you're dyslexic. If you are, then sorry. But if you're not, then...........well, hehe ;)

It is kinda funny - the few times I have ever had to use a mouse with two buttons was pure hilarity. I have been using apple's one button mice since 1984, it's surprisingly difficult to teach your hand/brain to do something new after that long. I am one of those mac people that is totally lost in the world of windows and two-button mice - I get frustrated very easily with both of them. I knows what I likes, and two buttons ain't it. ;) And I just put a new hard drive in my g4 tower, so I'm not totally all thumbs, just with two button mice, lol.

BaghdadBob

Apr 27, 2003, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
switching to a multiple button mouse would be saying "okay, windows world, you were right these past 25 years, we're going to become more like you to help ourselves survive".

Windows has had multi-button mice since '78?

Anyhoo, anyone who has ever tried to teach someone how to use a computer from scratch (like meghop apparently has) knows there's way too much to try and teach them without going "no....left-click.....before I KILL YOU!!!" all the time.

That being said, anyone who wants a goddamned five button mouse can go buy one and quit expecting Apple to make it for god's sake. You can use that big pokey thing we call a keyboard in the meantime, you will find that it has many magical properties, more than you can contain within even the most multi-buttoned of mice...unless you strap a big, keyboard-shaped thing to your hand, that is.

As far as two buttons goes -- bring it on Apple, and do it better, because Windows two-button mice DO cause problems for the new user...anyone who wants to challenge that is just snotty. But in today's world of the ever-more intuitive interface, contextual menus should not be a chore to access.

How to strike a middle-ground between continuing to reign as the world champion in ease of use for the un-savvy user and being the preferred stock of the professional (which it is) is no easy task. People should quit cursing Apple all the time for not giving people a more complex mouse by default...a replacement really is that cheap.

And apparently (see the last mouse-related thread) some people actually liked the hockey-puck.

What a bunch of freaks, huh?

rainman::|:|

Apr 27, 2003, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax question: would apple make a big deal about a new mouse/keyboard? like, would it poossibly get it's own release date? [/B]

well, it has to be released on some date, just because there's a release date doesn't mean there will be any hoopla about it... it just means there wasnt a powermac/imac update near enough to justify waiting...

pnw

redAPPLE

Apr 27, 2003, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by AndrewMT
Has anyone considered that Apple would probably loose notebook sales temporarily if they released a two button mouse? I wouldn't buy the $3300 17" powerbook with one lousy button if I knew a two button trackpad was coming out in the next revision.

Also, the revised mouse could still be one large button with the center of the scrolling circle acting as the second button.

imo, a 2-button mouse is not the same as a 2-"button" trackpad. i got the chance to use a lot of pc notebooks and "right-clicking" the trackpad buttons is idiotic.

with which finger does one "right-click" a trackpad? tapping the pad for double-clicking s ok. left-clicking with the thumb is ok. but right-clicking?

ontopic: my take is, apple would not mess with the one-button mouse design. the pro mouse looks! perfect. i would place a "ctrl" button where the thumb sits. so there is your "ctrl + click".

shadowfax

Apr 27, 2003, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
well, it has to be released on [b]some[/i] date, just because there's a release date doesn't mean there will be any hoopla about it... it just means there wasnt a powermac/imac update near enough to justify waiting...

pnw ok. so do you think they might still make a big deal about wireless freedom and BT whatever?

Snowy_River

Apr 27, 2003, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by meghop
It is kinda funny - the few times I have ever had to use a mouse with two buttons was pure hilarity. I have been using apple's one button mice since 1984, it's surprisingly difficult to teach your hand/brain to do something new after that long. I am one of those mac people that is totally lost in the world of windows and two-button mice - I get frustrated very easily with both of them. I knows what I likes, and two buttons ain't it. ;) And I just put a new hard drive in my g4 tower, so I'm not totally all thumbs, just with two button mice, lol.

This is an interesting perspective. We all know that those of us that prefer to use multi-button mice (personally, I don't like fewer than three- but then I do a lot of unix stuff) can easily buy a third party mouse and plug it into our computer. But, if Apple were to stop making one button mice, and switch over to two button mice, what would the people who want a one button mouse do? I'd guess that meghop is not that small a minority. Perhaps MacAlly or someone would continue to make 'Mouse-In-A-Box' one button mice, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'd love to offer nothing but multi-button mice, too. After all, a one button mouse is really only marketable to the Mac community, where as multi-button mice can be marketed to the entire computer world community, regardless of platform.

Anyway, my guess is that the i-models will always have just one button. That goes along with the target audience, in my mind. The Power-models may end up getting a BTO option to have an Apple multi-button mouse. If that is the case, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the new Apple Power-Mouse with at least three buttons, making it useable in Shake.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter...

Snowy_River

Apr 27, 2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by redAPPLE
imo, a 2-button mouse is not the same as a 2-"button" trackpad. i got the chance to use a lot of pc notebooks and "right-clicking" the trackpad buttons is idiotic.

with which finger does one "right-click" a trackpad? tapping the pad for double-clicking s ok. left-clicking with the thumb is ok. but right-clicking?

Ah, yes. I've used many Wintel laptops, too. I can't stand the split mouse button on the trackpad. It's uncomfortable, awkward, and just plain annoying. It's far too easy to click on the 'right' button when trying to just 'left click'.

Also, when it comes to clicking and control clicking on my iBook, I really don't have too much of a problem hitting the control key when I need it, just from the natural position of my left hand. So, please, no split button on the 'Books.

ontopic: my take is, apple would not mess with the one-button mouse design. the pro mouse looks! perfect. i would place a "ctrl" button where the thumb sits. so there is your "ctrl + click".

Interesting idea... I wouldn't hold my breath for it's implementation, but it's interesting, none-the-less.

AndrewMT

Apr 27, 2003, 02:55 AM

I would think Apple would release a two button trackpad along with a two-button mouse. Granted, the second button on a trackpad is not as easy to use as a standard mouse button, but is still useful. You are probably right, though. Sales would probably not go down considerably.

Ugh. Just brought back awful memories of using my trackpad on my Ti 550. The thumb button was so hard to press down that my thumb would be sore after 30min use.

evilsprung

Apr 27, 2003, 03:26 AM

No offense really, but I can't understand how some of you out there love a one button mouse. Seriously it totally decreases functionality, at least for desktops. Now I'll be straight forward. I'm a Mac newbie (long time PC user), got my 12" PB like about month now, and I dont have any gripes about the one button touchpad. Ctrl clicking is fine, but that's just because it's too retarded to attach a desktop mouse to a laptop and for me it would be a pain to carry all the time.
But for desktops, I think I would need a multy button mouse. It seriously increases functionality. And not just in stuff like word processing or web browsing, but especially gaming. I mean i guess if you dont play games, a one button mouse is the way to go but geez how hard is it really to put on an extra button? I mean if you have that big of a gripe you might as well mod your car to have just one pedal.
Well sorry if I offended some, but Apple would really benefit in selling multi button mice in stead of a freakin 50 dollar one button hockey puck.

Windowlicker

Apr 27, 2003, 03:36 AM

I personally like the one button mouse ?especially the new "buttonless" mouse. I love to be able to keep the mouse in my hand however I like and it works. With 2-button mouses you always need to have it in your hand properly.

Still, I admitt that two buttons would be great for games, but that's almost everything it serves well. You mostly have your left (or right, the 1-butt. mouse works well for both!!!) arm free so what's the big deal pressing ctrl?

And the one button mouse really is an icon for apple. why should they quit making it? Maybe there could be a choise for the customer where he could choose from two options.. That's be pretty cool and people could stop whining about this.

BaghdadBob

Apr 27, 2003, 03:41 AM

I'm not offended, but remember that what Apple does with its products is about more than just what is more or less "functional", it is about being simple and intuitive.

And this Kensington mouse (http://www.kensington.com/html/1510.html) really is quite sweet...

Anyway, I've been using macs since they had itty-bitty screens and were in black-and-white, and I've grown quite accustomed to being a two-handed user, personally. I would also like to point out that the two-button mouse has been a liability for a long time, in that developers could get quite lazy indeed on the PC and make commands very difficult to find at times because of the stupid contextual menus. It's only been recently that I personally have become more of a convert to the idea that a two-button mouse would be more highly useful.

But I don't (always) let what I want personally get in the way of what will be the best approach in my opinion for Apple. I stand by my opinion that a one-button mouse is great for the non-savvy user.

And they don't make the puck mouse anymore...

Plus, I don't care what anyone says, the Pro Mouse is a fine mouse for only having one button, IMO.

shawnjackson

Apr 27, 2003, 04:33 AM

you know, the big thing for me is that os x has always supported right-clicking on mice without the use of any extra drivers. so if they support the use of right-click into the OS and understand why people need it then why not give the people what they want?

bdkennedy1

Apr 27, 2003, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by inkswamp
How about Apple+I? Is that not simple enough?

Just IMO. Frankly, after having dealt with the half-baked crud that passes for the Windows interface for so long, the Mac's simplified approach works for me. I'm not eager to see Apple mess with it to please a bunch of people who have been taught to expect bad design.

Coming from a Windows world, I don't see how looking down at the keyboard and looking for the Control key and using 2 hands to do what a second button on the mouse can do is more convenient or easier.

FelixDerKater

Apr 27, 2003, 05:11 AM

TOSS THE ONE BUTTON MOUSE, APPLE! It is absolutely ridiculous. If you are too dumb to figure out when to use the left and right buttons, then you don't even need to use a darn computer. Left click does what your precious single button did and the right button gives you contextual menus. I guess you prefer to have to use two hands to perform the task a single finger on a two-button mouse could do. If you can't figure out what a scroll wheel is for, then you should donate you Mac to charity and save yourself the stress of owning such a mind-boggling piece of equipment.

amnesiac1984

Apr 27, 2003, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by FelixDerKater
TOSS THE ONE BUTTON MOUSE, APPLE! It is absolutely ridiculous. If you are too dumb to figure out when to use the left and right buttons, then you don't even need to use a da*n computer. Left click does what your precious single button did and the right button gives you contextual menus. I guess you prefer to have to use two hands to perform the task a single finger on a two-button mouse could do. If you can't figure out what a scroll wheel is for, then you should donate you Mac to charity and save yourself the stress of owning such a mind-boggling piece of equipment.

Thats constructive Flix, thanks :rolleyes:

Now mice are a b*tch for me. I'm left handed so I can only ever buy ambidextrious mice and so that rules out more than three button mice. I currently use a wireless optical Logitech thing. Its okay but I secretly look forward to the days that my batteries run out so i can use my pro mouse. For a start this logitech thing horribly ugly, secondly it ways a ton with all its batteries. another thing I notice is that I get infinitely smoother mosue movement with my pro mouse than with this one. I love using m pro mouse, i've never seen a mouse thats as comfortable and nice to use before, its liek driving a nive mercedes or something using pro mouse. Th eonly reason I use the logitech is because of the multi-button issue. And after 6 months of use I don't see the advantage of wireless really, it jsut weighs you down with heavy batteries where before you were weighed down by cables.

wolfywolfbits

Apr 27, 2003, 05:44 AM

Hey Arn, Is it true :( :(

Just how reliable are these reliable sources?

When I read the rumor my heart sunk. I have been waiting for an Apple branded scroll mouse for a couple of years now. I really would prefer to throw away the MS mouse I'm forced into using and use an Apple mouse.

Sigh. Hope this isn't true.

BaghdadBob

Apr 27, 2003, 06:05 AM

I don't think you have to worry...we should expect the new mouse to roll out with Panther and the 970, IMO. Come see why 2004 won't be like 1984! We love IBM! Anyway...gotta sleep sometime, NASCAR's on in the morning....

Jason_Bryan

Apr 27, 2003, 06:05 AM

I have never understood the problem people make out of the 1 button / multi button mouse issue. I have one of each. I use my Apple Pro Mouse for my general work. I was taught to use keyboard short cuts for all my formating options when word processing, as this is far faster than using any type of mouse, as you don't move your fingers from the keyboard. When I play games however I use a Multi Button Mouse. Simple. No right or wrong way, just differnet ways of working.

NicoMan

Apr 27, 2003, 06:50 AM

Hmm I think we can all agree on one thing: some people prefer one button, some prefer multiple buttons. And that's that. At least on Macs we have a choice, because second button click is a control-click. So people can choose what they want. That being said, I would rather use an Apple-branded multi-button-plus-scrollwheel mouse than a Microsoft (or Kensington, MacAlly...), because it would probably look nicer.

But I would not want Apple to abandon the single-button mouse either, because it would then alienate a lot of their users, and probably (notice the probably) would make developpers become sloppy in terms of user interface. Just a nice BTO option to get an Apple multi-button mouse...

Now the scrolling wheel, that's what we all need, even the single-button mouse users. I don't know how Apple would do it, but I'd really like an iPod-like wheel on my mouse or next to my trackpad on my laptop. If I had that and the option to get a second button (through that scroll-wheel thingy), then i would bin my Microsoft mouse...

My 0.02 ¢.

NicoMan

thies

Apr 27, 2003, 07:08 AM

switching to a multiple button mouse would be saying "okay, windows world, you were right these past 25 years, we're going to become more like you to help ourselves survive". i dont think that's a statement apple is prepared to make at this point.

They are right. I sit here with a 4 button + wheel trackball. I just for ****s and giggles tried using a onebutton mouse again. I'd get a nervous breakdown after a day of using it fulltime again as it takes much more movement to get things done due to having to move to the deskbar to access menus instead of pressing a right mouse button, move my hand about all the time as I can't scroll content by flipping a wheel and finally have to get back and forth to press the "back" and "forward buttons in the menubars instead of pressing one of two buttons to flip back and forth.
No, the one button mouse is a device shich every sane person would have replaced decades ago with more mature and userfriendly technology.

Centris 650

Apr 27, 2003, 07:09 AM

Just for the record I've always used the one button mouse. I do have a Kinsington multi-button mouse and it's ok. As far as right clicking being faster I think THAT is also a matter of opinion. I know the keyboard short cuts (and my own quick keys) so well it's pretty instinctive.

If apple released a 2 button mouse there would be some who would say "Apple's so stupid for not releasing a 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel!" Then if they released the scroll wheel 2 button mouse then there would be some who'd say "Apple's so lame for not releasing a 3 button mouse." It goes on and on. Keep the 1 button mouse and let those who want multi-buttoned mice use a 3rd party.

My 2¢.

BTW, why not include BT in this round of updates? That's what I'm waiting for!

amnesiac1984

Apr 27, 2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by NicoMan
Hmm I think we can all agree on one thing: some people prefer one button, some prefer multiple buttons. And that's that. At least on Macs we have a choice, because second button click is a control-click. So people can choose what they want. That being said, I would rather use an Apple-branded multi-button-plus-scrollwheel mouse than a Microsoft (or Kensington, MacAlly...), because it would probably look nicer.

But I would not want Apple to abandon the single-button mouse either, because it would then alienate a lot of their users, and probably (notice the probably) would make developpers become sloppy in terms of user interface. Just a nice BTO option to get an Apple multi-button mouse...

Now the scrolling wheel, that's what we all need, even the single-button mouse users. I don't know how Apple would do it, but I'd really like an iPod-like wheel on my mouse or next to my trackpad on my laptop. If I had that and the option to get a second button (through that scroll-wheel thingy), then i would bin my Microsoft mouse...

My 0.02 ¢.

NicoMan

Yeah, thats the dilema I have. I like using multipile buttons. Anyone know a multibutton mouse thats as comfortable and smooth running as the apple pro mouse? It has to be ambidextrous as well.

WorldMage

Apr 27, 2003, 07:21 AM

I come from UNIX land where three button mice are the norm. I'm very comfortable with a multi-button mice and I personally always carry one with me, but...

When using Windows I regularly find myself having to play 'which button is it'. Things are pretty good when there is a clear selection action, but for instance in the task bar about half the controls ignore the left button the rest seem totally arbitrary about which button does what. As a result I have to remember this particular control uses this button, this makes the interface very non-intuitive.

On the Mac this doesn't happen very often at all. 1st there is a lot of pressure to put everything on the one button action (which would be fine for most of these controls - one control pops up a menu with two items for left mouse and a menu with one time for right mouse - talk about a waste!). 2nd the Mac OS provides stronger guidelines on how things should be done.

I think Mac made the right decision force software developers to seriously consider the one mouse button case, but when that fails Cmd click is always an option. People who care will get a two button mouse, people who don't can still do everything. The only real downside is laptops, which I own, but one button works well enough there most of the time and when you are doing lots of work just plug in the multi-button mouse.

icetraxxg5

Apr 27, 2003, 07:38 AM

A one button mouse on a notebook is brilliant. Its very simple and when you have to use a right button the control button is so close to the trackpad... I may not like one button mice but one button on a laptop is the best.

scem0

Apr 27, 2003, 08:18 AM

I REALLY hope apple has a multibutton mouse next. To some
people, right click is necessary. I use it to browse faster. Opera,
for PC, has 'mouse guestures' which you can control your browser
with, and they make my browsing experience so much faster
(safari needs mouse guestures). I couldn't live without a right
click mouse ever..... Every time I use my friends pro mouse, I
almost die. I'm sorry, but that mouse sucks anus. It is slow
moving (no matter what speed it is on in the control panels),
there isn't a right click, there isn't a scroll wheel, and it costs
as much money as a mouse that will actually be intuative. Apple
has a great design for their mouse, but they need to add a
****ing scroll wheel. If Steve Jobs keeps a 1 button mouse for
'simplicity's sake', then apple is going to go WAY downhill in the
next couple of years. If apple doesn't release an actually GOOD
mouse, then I will be just fine with my MICROSOFT mouse which
was a helluvah lot less expensive and works a helluvah lot better.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

DakotaGuy

Apr 27, 2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by scem0
Every time I use my friends pro mouse, I
almost die. I'm sorry, but that mouse sucks anus. It is slow
moving (no matter what speed it is on in the control panels),
there isn't a right click, there isn't a scroll wheel, and it costs
as much money as a mouse that will actually be intuative. Apple
has a great design for their mouse, but they need to add a
****ing scroll wheel.

Scem,

Dude you are contradicting yourself there...first saying it sucks anus, then saying they have a great design. Of course, you are a PC person...so then again? okay I am just joking.

Personally I LOVE the one-button mouse, but I don't do a lot of special things with my computers. For moving around the Finder, surfing the net, word processor, PowerPoint, etc. One button works great.

amnesiac1984

Apr 27, 2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by scem0
I REALLY hope apple has a multibutton mouse next. To some
people, right click is necessary. I use it to browse faster. Opera,
for PC, has 'mouse guestures' which you can control your browser
with, and they make my browsing experience so much faster
(safari needs mouse guestures). I couldn't live without a right
click mouse ever..... Every time I use my friends pro mouse, I
almost die. I'm sorry, but that mouse sucks anus. It is slow
moving (no matter what speed it is on in the control panels),
there isn't a right click, there isn't a scroll wheel, and it costs
as much money as a mouse that will actually be intuative. Apple
has a great design for their mouse, but they need to add a
****ing scroll wheel. If Steve Jobs keeps a 1 button mouse for
'simplicity's sake', then apple is going to go WAY downhill in the
next couple of years. If apple doesn't release an actually GOOD
mouse, then I will be just fine with my MICROSOFT mouse which
was a helluvah lot less expensive and works a helluvah lot better.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm sorry scem, but I don't think apple is going to go down the pan because they sell one button mice. You buy a microsoft mouse, whoopy s***, doesn't mean you're not gonna buy an Apple Computer does it?

If somebody made a multi-button mouse that is as well engineered, and beautifully designed, as apples single button mouse, then I'll buy it, but right now I'm stuck with an inferior mouse because I can't resist scrolling and right-clinking, does anybody know a multi-button mouse that would work for me? I'm a mouse elitist and need smoothness and comfort and design but also need buttons, any suggestions anyone? Anybody actually use the kensington Studio? Whats it like?

Blackcat

Apr 27, 2003, 08:36 AM

I've got no problem with people using multi-button mice if they want. I do have a problem with them ranting about why I should though.

I'm disabled. I can not use 2 buttons.

By supporting multiple buttons but only shipping 1 button mice, Apple is ensuring developers always code for the lowest common denominator.

If they started shipping 2 button mice pretty soon the OS and apps would need 2 buttons. Me, and thousands (or more accurately millions) then have to struggle with technology that is supposed to make life easier.

It's all very well you lot demanding Apple bundle 2 button mice, but don't forget not everybody sees it as a good thing.

Vlade

Apr 27, 2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
switching to a multiple button mouse would be saying "okay, windows world, you were right these past 25 years, we're going to become more like you to help ourselves survive". i dont think that's a statement apple is prepared to make at this point.

pnw

Sometimes you need to admit your wrong, macs arn't perfect, and neither was the 1 button mouse.

harmless

Apr 27, 2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Arcady
I have a box full of stupid one button mice that nobody wants. Get a clue, Apple!

Wanna send them to me? :D

bye. Andreas.

harmless

Apr 27, 2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Snowy_River
So, please, no split button on the 'Books.

I second that!

bye. Andreas.

Grimace

Apr 27, 2003, 09:02 AM

Regardless of whether you vote for a two-button mouse or defend Apple to the grave for being innovative by sticking to one, a new concept needs to come out.
The vast majority of PC users know and appreciate the two button concept. It does increase overall speed instead of apple-I or whatever. The best button feature on a mouse has been the side thumb buttons on the Microsoft intellimouse Opticals. When surfing the web, you can go "Back" and "Forward" without taking your hand off the mouse or moving the cursor up to the top menu. Seems silly, but it is sooooo nice. I can't seem to get that mouse to work with my PB at the moment...

Grimace

Apr 27, 2003, 09:08 AM

....and without Bluetooth it seems like a pointless endeavor. Why can't they slap it in there? It's not like the technology is so advanced that it is still on the drawing board.

Snowy_River

Apr 27, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by carletonmusic
The best button feature on a mouse has been the side thumb buttons on the Microsoft intellimouse Opticals. When surfing the web, you can go "Back" and "Forward" without taking your hand off the mouse or moving the cursor up to the top menu. Seems silly, but it is sooooo nice.

Well, for what it's worth, I have a 5 button Kensington and those side buttons drive me nuts. More often than not, I hit them when moving the mouse around, not when I want to. Oh well...

Fredo Viola

Apr 27, 2003, 10:18 AM

I use a three button Logitech, and I will NEVER go back to one button. Apple will be really disappointing if they don't get with it and release a two button mouse. The scroll wheel would be great too. If you don't like two buttons, just use the one! But especially in os10 it makes way too much sense to have that context button! Not to mention the functionality you get in most of the 3rd party apps as well. Come on, Apple! Don't be schtupid!

NicoMan

Apr 27, 2003, 10:54 AM

John_DiMatteo

Apr 27, 2003, 11:25 AM

I own an iBook. And the keyboard particularly annoys me. I look to the left side of the space bar and I see four keys (apple, option, control, function). I am not realy sure what any of them are for. Yes, I use them frequently but I am constantly getting confused.

freemidnight

Apr 27, 2003, 11:46 AM

My Apple mouse is in a drawer since I've bought the M$ Intellimouse.

I don't mind about Apple's mice but please put a power on/off key on the new keyboards!

Apple is regressing on that. My G4 is in a machine room and I have to get there to turn it on. Stupid!:mad:

Wry Cooter

Apr 27, 2003, 12:22 PM

I don't have a problem with single button or multiple button mice... either are just as functional to me. I do tend to use multibutton mice MORE on the peecee side of the world, because they are there. I simply do not see what new feature they COULD be adding to the mouse if it was not a button. USB2? Unnecessary. It has already been said it will not be bluetooth or anyother sort of wirelessness. Maybe it will have a microphone for the new iChat....

The keyboard, I'm not sure what could be added there either... maybe return the on/off Switch?

astrocity20

Apr 27, 2003, 12:31 PM

I could one up you and say I like a 3 buttoned mouse. Good for gaming. Though sometimes I do wish I had a scrolling wheel.

itsbetteronamac

Apr 27, 2003, 12:35 PM

I had uses two button mice for years. And when I finally dicided to switch over and try the one button mouse I loved it. You can easily click with any finger you want. Not to mention it gives you left more to do. i personally think that in a two button world we would evolve to have to left arm.

Plus the one button mouse is like apple's TM. When i say that macs are better to my windows using friends, and their first comment is about the one button mouse.

MasterX (OSiX)

Apr 27, 2003, 12:47 PM

This is what I have:
http://www.kensington.com/html/1212.html
I don't use the 4 and 5 buttons except in games, so I don't have the drivers. I kinda miss chording, but using Apple's built in software which has the most magnificently refined acceleration curve is what makes any mac a joy to use. If MS ever got hold of that one graph of speed vs acceleration we're all screwed.

Anyway, It's a good mouse, my wheel is messed up, but it's been thru hell so i'll fogive it. Plus they repalced my last mouse for free so i'll let Kensington off the hook since i'll get apple's new mouse soon anyway (all i need is 2 buttons, hopefully instead of a wheel an analog tilt pad. Imagine that, instead of a wheel which is a non-acceleration based input you could get analog input. THink of it like a gas pedal. Pushing it doesnt control speed, it controls acceleration. If apple had that kind of thing everyone with "mac mice suck ill never get a mac bc im too stoopid to buy a new mouse" would suddent shut up :¬D)

MasterX (OSiX)

Apr 27, 2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by amnesiac1984
I'm sorry scem, but I don't think apple is going to go down the pan because they sell one button mice. You buy a microsoft mouse, whoopy s***, doesn't mean you're not gonna buy an Apple Computer does it?

If somebody made a multi-button mouse that is as well engineered, and beautifully designed, as apples single button mouse, then I'll buy it, but right now I'm stuck with an inferior mouse because I can't resist scrolling and right-clinking, does anybody know a multi-button mouse that would work for me? I'm a mouse elitist and need smoothness and comfort and design but also need buttons, any suggestions anyone? Anybody actually use the kensington Studio? Whats it like?

My brother has a Kensington Studio (wired) for his shiny new 17" i hate him for having it Powerbook. It's funny since i had the same idea (to use a trackpad instead of buttons and a wheel, same idea more or less) but i find it's not sensative enough. The actual mouse feels awesome though.

shadowfax

Apr 27, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
My brother has a Kensington Studio (wired) for his shiny new 17" i hate him for having it Powerbook. It's funny since i had the same idea (to use a trackpad instead of buttons and a wheel, same idea more or less) but i find it's not sensative enough. The actual mouse feels awesome though. the trackpad on the Kensington studio mouse is pretty adjustable as far as sensitivity, though it certainly takes some getting used to, coming from a scroll wheel.

MasterX (OSiX)

Apr 27, 2003, 01:02 PM

cool. only got to use it for 5 minutes. never got to use the albook (mouse came 1st, albook went to his university)

rainman::|:|

Apr 27, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Vlade
Sometimes you need to admit your wrong, macs arn't perfect, and neither was the 1 button mouse.

i said that apple wasn't prepared to say that. i wasn't attributing opinion to it-- it's a pretty safe bet that this is part of why apple hasn't made a two-button.

Personally, if they got the design right, i don't think it would be bad to sell as an option. hell, i'd probably buy one before long. but i stand by the idea that new computer users appreciate the simplicity. Ever try to teach someone 60+ or under 8 how to use multiple buttons? I've seen senior citizens that couldn't manage a one-button mouse very well, the whole concept of pointing at things with it was foreign to them, and then they'd be too busy trying to hold the mouse still to worry about which finger to use... You seem to forget a big section of users-- those still completely computer illiterate. Macs have always been the computer of choice for people like this, and a one-button mouse is part of that.

IMHO :)

pnw

scem0

Apr 27, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Scem,

Dude you are contradicting yourself there...first saying it sucks anus, then saying they have a great design. Of course, you are a PC person...so then again? okay I am just joking.

Personally I LOVE the one-button mouse, but I don't do a lot of special things with my computers. For moving around the Finder, surfing the net, word processor, PowerPoint, etc. One button works great.

fine, let me reword what I said.

It sucks anus but it is "aesthetically pleasing". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

rockman2023

Apr 27, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Head Wound
What in the hell are you guys talking about???

Apple sells a WIDE VARIETY of multi-button mouses with scroll wheels! They have for a LONG TIME! Just look on the site. Theres mouses by every well known input device maker I know of, and you can easily add them to any purchase.

I use a multi-button Logitech mouse with every mac I use. I can't be without the right-click and scroll wheel.

You guys are SERIOUSLY out of touch...

Apple may sell the mice, but they dont necessarily make 'em.

MasterX (OSiX)

Apr 27, 2003, 02:06 PM

Once i had my PowerMac AGP and a iMac 266 side my side with apple system profiler. Both had the stock Apple USB KB/Mouse, and not one of the 4 manufacturers was the same. Heh, funny.

RandomDeadHead

Apr 27, 2003, 02:24 PM

Apple may sell the mice, but they dont necessarily make 'em.

Truth be told, Apple doesnt make ANY mouse, the Pro mouse is made by Logitech.

rockman2023

Apr 27, 2003, 02:29 PM

If the new "scrolling technology" is to be incorporated in mice, would it be introcuced in the Fall along with a new line of PowerMacs?

Then again, it wouldn't make sense to make new mice and keyboards now if that's the case.

.....wait.....that previous story mentioned nothing about a second button.....

Hmmmmm, new mouse with scrollwheel anyone?

yzedf

Apr 27, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Head Wound
What in the hell are you guys talking about???

Apple sells a WIDE VARIETY of multi-button mouses with scroll wheels! They have for a LONG TIME! Just look on the site. Theres mouses by every well known input device maker I know of, and you can easily add them to any purchase.

I use a multi-button Logitech mouse with every mac I use. I can't be without the right-click and scroll wheel.

You guys are SERIOUSLY out of touch...
Apple... Logitech... I think you are confused. We are talking of the "Pro" Keyboard and Mouse :rolleyes:

mstecker

Apr 27, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
And this Kensington mouse (http://www.kensington.com/html/1510.html) really is quite sweet...

Well, yes and no. I have one, and it bugs me for the following reasons:

- It just feels strange. No matter how I adjust the mouse speed and tracking options, it feels like it's very hard to use it accurately. Move it left a bit, then move it right the same bit and you get nowhere near offsetting actions.

- There's a bad delay between the time you move it and the time when it "wakes up" after being inactive for more than a few seconds.

- If you forget about putting it back in the cradle, and it runs out of batteries, you're just out of luck. This happens to me often enough that I find that I need to keep a wired mouse handy in the desk drawer next to this machine to plug in when the RF dies (my aqua hockey-puck apple mouse lives to annoy another day!)

- Although it looks beautiful, it doesn't feel that expensive.

The grass is always greener, I suppose.

Dave Marsh

Apr 27, 2003, 04:41 PM

Unless Apple is just changing the look of the keyboard, perhaps it's adding some speciality buttons to support its iApps?

Centris 650

Apr 27, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Blackcat
I've got no problem with people using multi-button mice if they want. I do have a problem with them ranting about why I should though.

I'm disabled. I can not use 2 buttons.

By supporting multiple buttons but only shipping 1 button mice, Apple is ensuring developers always code for the lowest common denominator.

If they started shipping 2 button mice pretty soon the OS and apps would need 2 buttons. Me, and thousands (or more accurately millions) then have to struggle with technology that is supposed to make life easier.

It's all very well you lot demanding Apple bundle 2 button mice, but don't forget not everybody sees it as a good thing.

Wow, never thought about that. Well said.

Freg3000

Apr 27, 2003, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Dave Marsh
Unless Apple is just changing the look of the keyboard, perhaps it's adding some speciality buttons to support its iApps?

If Apple does this, they better do it right. I hate PC keyboard like, "push this buttom to get your email!" or "push this button to go search the web!" If anyone can do it, it's Apple-but for now I am happy with the Pro Keyboard.

However, I am not pleased with the mouse. I hate Microsoft, but I love their mice. I am buying this mouse as soon as I can:

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouse/wiebt_info.asp

Xcyridus

Apr 27, 2003, 05:46 PM

The previous post was right. Apple isn't going to say "Oh, yea PC world. You were right about the 2 button mouse thing all along."

Won't happen. Besides, Apple is right. One button IS better IMHO.

I think this will be one of the two:

A. Apple is going to release wireless mice
B. Apple is just going to improve the design (Thinner, more comfortable, waterproof, lavaproof, ect.)
C. Apple will do both

p.s. I am joking about lavaproof.

mkaake

Apr 27, 2003, 05:50 PM

i got bored reading the values of one button mice versus two, especially since it costs what? - 20 bucks to pick up a two button optical scroll mouse?

the real reason i wrote this post was to let arcady know that i'm always in need of good one button adb apple mice. you know how much those things cost? so hey, if they're that much of a burn in your living space, please, feel free to send them along...

seriously here folks... macs have had single button mice since the getgo. apple has always pushed user friendlyness. for power users, yeah, two buttons and a scroll wheel can be really nice. and when we get that urge, you plop down the money, bend over, and buy the mouse you want. it's like someone buying a sony viao with a ball mouse (they still do make them) and complaining that they aren't optical. and as far as user friendlyness goes, i'm sorry, but one button still reigns as king.

it's easy to forget that when you've been using macs since the mac plus, and have also been using windows for just as long. you get used to what you have.

my grandma? she uses windows xp. half the time she clicks the wrong button. annoys the crap out of her, cause she doesn't think she's done anything wrong. for goodness sakes. i sent her an email with links to copy and paste into a browser instead of just clicking, and she couldn't figure it out. i even included detailed instructions (which did involve, by the way, a right click).

apple apeals to new users because it's easy to use and understand. things just make sense. and they work. i honestly can't understand why some people make such a big stink, as if not having a factory two button mouse to go with your mac is reason to go buy a dell...

matt

MasterX (OSiX)

Apr 27, 2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by mkaake
apple apeals to new users because it's easy to use and understand. things just make sense. and they work. i honestly can't understand why some people make such a big stink, as if not having a factory two button mouse to go with your mac is reason to go buy a dell...

matt

That would be a pot smoking figure head, or PCs starting at $649. I can't imagine how hard it is to take home a mac for $1499 that's supposidly slower than a $649 Dell. This is one reason why MacAddicts are so excited now, the 970 will be in the ~2ghz realm when gen 1 PC 64-bit desktop CPUs are out. I guess this is a time for change in the industry, concerning Apple especially. For once at the store you'll see this:
$649 2.2ghz P4
$999 2.6ghz P4
$1399 3.06ghz p4
$1899 3.25ghz p4
$2199 1.2ghz AMD 64-bit
$1899 1.6ghz PowerMac 970
:cool:

boobers

Apr 27, 2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by redAPPLE
i would place a "ctrl" button where the thumb sits. so there is your "ctrl + click".
Don't forget about the lefties.

mkaake

Apr 27, 2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by carletonmusic
Regardless of whether you vote for a two-button mouse or defend Apple to the grave for being innovative by sticking to one, a new concept needs to come out.
The vast majority of PC users know and appreciate the two button concept. It does increase overall speed instead of apple-I or whatever. The best button feature on a mouse has been the side thumb buttons on the Microsoft intellimouse Opticals. When surfing the web, you can go "Back" and "Forward" without taking your hand off the mouse or moving the cursor up to the top menu. Seems silly, but it is sooooo nice. I can't seem to get that mouse to work with my PB at the moment...

yeah - they're great until you go to play counter strike (or whatever game you prefer) on it and keep dying because you hold the mouse in such a way that your thumb is always hitting that button and screwing up your timing. here's an example from friday, when i was playing cs on a friend's laptop with a 4 button w/scrollwheel

<sees enemy> <laughs to self> <goes to pull trigger> <oh dang, hit that freakin side button> <oh crap, still need to pull trigger> <oh crap, i think i'm dead>
<silence> (followed by my repeated askings to see if anyone had ANY other mouse around)

scem0

Apr 27, 2003, 06:19 PM

Vlade

Apr 27, 2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
i said that apple wasn't prepared to say that. i wasn't attributing opinion to it-- it's a pretty safe bet that this is part of why apple hasn't made a two-button.

Personally, if they got the design right, i don't think it would be bad to sell as an option. hell, i'd probably buy one before long. but i stand by the idea that new computer users appreciate the simplicity. Ever try to teach someone 60+ or under 8 how to use multiple buttons? I've seen senior citizens that couldn't manage a one-button mouse very well, the whole concept of pointing at things with it was foreign to them, and then they'd be too busy trying to hold the mouse still to worry about which finger to use... You seem to forget a big section of users-- those still completely computer illiterate. Macs have always been the computer of choice for people like this, and a one-button mouse is part of that.

IMHO :)

pnw

By you i ment Apple, not you the macrumors user, sorry.

I think that instead of having 95% of users buy a 2 button mouse, 5% of the people should buy a 1 button mouse. People will get used to 2 button mice eventually. Or apple could have a BTO option for both mice.

MetallicPenguin

Apr 27, 2003, 06:42 PM

Why don't they jsut keep it the way it is, I'm using a 2 button mouse right now, but I very much like the one button mouse, but then again who really cares, if you do care then go get a 2 button mouse.I know apple will not get a 2 button mouse for some tiime, and if they do, It'll be an option when you buy your mac.

boobers

Apr 27, 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Xcyridus

B. Apple is just going to improve the design (Thinner, more comfortable, waterproof, lavaproof, ect.)
p.s. I am joking about lavaproof.
I hope your joking about thinner too..smaller mice cramp my hand..these things aren't cellphones, you gotta have a comfortable grip.

mkaake

Apr 27, 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by scem0
No offense, but if apple designs their products to appeal to 1%
of the population, then they are in big trouble.

good golly, i found that offensive. and even if it weren't for his reasoning for wanting a one button mouse, he had a really good freakin point about the lowest common denominator. that doesn't just mean physical dissabilities, it also means those who aren't power users. and i know you don't have to be a 'power user' to use two buttons. but the fact is that there are people who get truly confused by more than one button. so until such time that they become okay with that, they are the lowest common denominator.

matt

mkaake

Apr 27, 2003, 07:31 PM

i'd just like to restate my thoughts after my last -

i like two button mice.

but if apple wants to sell one button mice, go apple. if i want a two button mouse i'll pay for it.

matt

MacEyeDoc

Apr 27, 2003, 07:50 PM

I've used Mac's for many years, and never needed anything but the single button until the internet arrived. Scrolling web sites is a chore with a single button mouse. Although I normally avoid anything from the Dark Side (aka Borg Collective, Micro$haft and Winblows), I tried out the Trackball Explorer, and found it works quite well. It has a medium size trackball, a separate scroll wheel and 5 buttons. You never have to move the device around on your desk, and with the Intellimouse software you can program it to let the trackball scroll up or down for you with just a touch in one direction or the other. I prefer it to a regular mouse now. Anyone else used this Trackball ?

Still, I agree with previous posts - I don't think it's Apple's job to supply each of us with our favorite kind of mouse, and for new users, simpler is almost always better.:)

MorganX

Apr 27, 2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
the one-button mouse is a huge thing for apple-- always has been-- it just says "see, sit down, calm down, things are simple over here". Apple has always (successfully IMHO) argued that a one-button mouse is superior because it's less the user has to deal with physically.

I personally think this whole argument is silly. Even dumb users aren't that dumb. there are more novices using two-buttons on cheap PCs than there are Mac users period.

Apple needs to get over it and move forward, but Steve Jobs' has mental problems.

cubist

Apr 27, 2003, 08:52 PM

Here's my guess: They went away from black, they went away from white, now they're going to silver (brushed aluminum look).

shadowfax

Apr 27, 2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by cubist
Here's my guess: They went away from black, they went away from white, now they're going to silver (brushed aluminum look). ehehehehe, a .5 lb aluminum mouse. that would be crazy.

Head Wound

Apr 27, 2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by yzedf
Apple... Logitech... I think you are confused. We are talking of the "Pro" Keyboard and Mouse :rolleyes:

Not at all. There is an Apple branded mouse that comes with every mac, but if you visit the Apple Store at apple.com, or even any Apple retail store, frankly ANY PLACE where you can purchase a mac, a variety of multi-button mouses ARE available to ad to your purchase, as they have been for years.

This entire debate is moot! The only argument that has any basis in reality is wether or not Apple should save some money by giving you the option to not include the Apple branded mouse.

Hell, someone already posted that Logitech actually makes the pro mice for Apple, and I wouldn't be suprised if that is true.

jeffberg

Apr 27, 2003, 10:09 PM

Sry, Didn't read all 98 posts, too lazy, but I do have a comment.

Most power users would complain that one button isn't enough. There are too many contextual menus. If you think about it though, the one button mouse is a god send. It makes people make the UI more intuitive because most people only have one button. Then us pro users get two buttons, we have the best of both worlds, simple interfaces and fast contextual menu access. I truly think one of the reasons Windows is so hard and so unintuitive is because programmers know that you will have 2 buttons. Knowing this, they make you use them. This is not the case in OSX until you get to Photoshop and other super pro apps like that.

Just my 2 cents, we may not like them, but they do help us.

shadowfax

Apr 27, 2003, 10:32 PM

BaghdadBob

Apr 27, 2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by jeffberg
Sry, Didn't read all 98 posts, too lazy, but I do have a comment.

Most power users would complain that one button isn't enough. There are too many contextual menus. If you think about it though, the one button mouse is a god send. It makes people make the UI more intuitive because most people only have one button. Then us pro users get two buttons, we have the best of both worlds, simple interfaces and fast contextual menu access. I truly think one of the reasons Windows is so hard and so unintuitive is because programmers know that you will have 2 buttons. Knowing this, they make you use them. This is not the case in OSX until you get to Photoshop and other super pro apps like that.

Just my 2 cents, we may not like them, but they do help us.

I would like everyone to remember that the problem with unintuitive interfaces thanks to the two-button mouse has only begun to go away recently. Also, iChat seems to be pretty much an AOL product anyway.

And, finally, for all you people who are commenting on the stupidity of people who are holding you back personally by having a harder time with a two-button mouse than a one button mouse...

GET OVER IT!!!

I have, personally, not just by imagination, but in reality, tutored total newbies at computer usage. Two button mice ARE A PROBLEM FOR THEM! Quit pretending it's not! IT IS! You might as well theorize that OS X has a snappier interface than XP because you read something about Quartz Extreme!

Don't talk unless you have the personal experience to go along with it!

If you have had different experiences teaching people who have NO computer experience than GOOD FOR YOU! That's not always the case! In fact it quite often isn't! SO GET OVER IT!!!!!

You sound like a bunch of college computer room nerds snickering at the ignorance of the masses. If people like that ruled the computer industry we would still be using text interfaces. "Why should I have to click on a picture and use a menu to do what I want when I can just type the command at 80 WPM? People are so stupid."

*pant pant pant pant*

I feel like freakin' Miss Piggy over here. I need to karate something... Excuse my flame, but....argggggg already.

jeffberg

Apr 27, 2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
I would like everyone to remember that the problem with unintuitive interfaces thanks to the two-button mouse has only begun to go away recently. Also, iChat seems to be pretty much an AOL product anyway.

And, finally, for all you people who are commenting on the stupidity of people who are holding you back personally by having a harder time with a two-button mouse than a one button mouse...

GET OVER IT!!!

I have, personally, not just by imagination, but in reality, tutored total newbies at computer usage. Two button mice ARE A PROBLEM FOR THEM! Quit pretending it's not! IT IS! You might as well theorize that OS X has a snappier interface than XP because you read something about Quartz Extreme!

Don't talk unless you have the personal experience to go along with it!

If you have had different experiences teaching people who have NO computer experience than GOOD FOR YOU! That's not always the case! In fact it quite often isn't! SO GET OVER IT!!!!!

You sound like a bunch of college computer room nerds snickering at the ignorance of the masses. If people like that ruled the computer industry we would still be using text interfaces. "Why should I have to click on a picture and use a menu to do what I want when I can just type the command at 80 WPM? People are so stupid."

*pant pant pant pant*

I feel like freakin' Miss Piggy over here. I need to karate something... Excuse my flame, but....argggggg already.

I'm kind of confused by this post, it seems you are attacking me, even though I am supporting the one button mouse, ummm... I support one button mouses, because I have also tutored people who have lots of problems with 2 buttons, the feeling is mutual, no need to attack one another.

And about Windows being easy until you get to photoshop, you need to ****ing right click to rename something in windows ok, that is what happens when you have 2 buttons, people expect you to use them. On our macs we just hit return or even easier, click on the name, and we can rename it, no need to right click go into a contextual menu like you do in windows. This is what I am talking about with the one buttons standard, 2 buttons for people who can use them. I also wouldn't call Word for X simple. Simple apps with ingenius UI's are the iapps, except ichat, too many contextual menus. But iPhoto or iMovie, when have u ever used a contextual menu in those. Keynote is another example. These are the kind of programs I want to see, and are only made because a one button mouse is default. I think most of you people have no idea of how many "luxuries" we lose if apple all of a sudden comes out with a 2 button mouse. People that make apps for the mac will get lazy, maybe even apple would get lazy. The last thing the mac needs right now is a bunch of lazy thirdparty programmers who no longer have to think about their UI because everyone will have a 2 button mouse.

yzedf

Apr 27, 2003, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Head Wound
Not at all. There is an Apple branded mouse that comes with every mac, but if you visit the Apple Store at apple.com, or even any Apple retail store, frankly ANY PLACE where you can purchase a mac, a variety of multi-button mouses ARE available to ad to your purchase, as they have been for years.

This entire debate is moot! The only argument that has any basis in reality is wether or not Apple should save some money by giving you the option to not include the Apple branded mouse.

Hell, someone already posted that Logitech actually makes the pro mice for Apple, and I wouldn't be suprised if that is true.
I am quite sure that Apple doesn't really make that piece of junk pro mouse. I do however, find it ludicrous that if I want to use Photoshop effectively with a brand new top of the line $3799 PowerMac that I still have to buy more hardware (ie a real mouse). That is absolutely retarded. At some point Apple is going to realize that it's not the lowest common denominator that buys their product. Their niche is with previous Mac owners, or Windows users that got fed up and wanted to switch. Either way (except for some Mac users whom only use what came with their Mac) people are familiar with, and know how to use, a simple 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel. I mean, come on now, my Amiga A1000 circa 1987 came with a two button mouse! Stop making excuses for Apple's deliberate bad choices, just for the sake of being different. Right click is better, faster, and simpler than control click. Newbies will ask "do I click both at same time?" which almost always results in normal click that was proceeded by or followed by a meaningless click of the control key. The timing has to be explained. For anyone of reasonable intelligence and finger control, right versus left is easier to grasp, and faster to use to its fullest capabilities.

And if you disagree, you are wrong. ;)

BaghdadBob

Apr 28, 2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by jeffberg
I'm kind of confused by this post, it seems you are attacking me, even though I am supporting the one button mouse, ummm...

Sorry, I was actually using your post as a supportive statement but didn't have time to flush out my post properly because I was being pestered.

BaghdadBob

Apr 28, 2003, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by yzedf
I do however, find it ludicrous that if I want to use Photoshop effectively with a brand new top of the line $3799 PowerMac that I still have to buy more hardware (ie a real mouse). That is absolutely retarded. At some point Apple is going to realize that it's not the lowest common denominator that buys their product. Their niche is with previous Mac owners, or Windows users that got fed up and wanted to switch.

Well, I disagree. Let's not forget that Apple was at one time the most poplular brand for education. Also, people who hate/don't have time to *** with computers but can afford a Mac. They like them too.

Plus, I think a POWER USER can be expected to buy the mouse of their liking. Especially because different professionals have different needs. To some, a two-button mouse (even with a scroll wheel) is almost as useless as a one-button mouse.

All the people who have said "Ah just don't know what ah would do with'aut mah fahv button mouse" wouldn't give a good goddamn if they got a two-button mouse with their mac, they'd STILL have to buy a new one. So who are you pleasing then?

Plus, please don't forget the UI issue. This cannot be stressed enough. Developers will start getting lazy if they can depend on a two-or-better button mouse, and that lowest-common-denomenator, who the mac DOES appeal to, will be left with one less friendly interface. There really is a tremendous amount of evidence to this regard.

I'm right, you're all wrong, even those of you who agree with me, just don't bother to post, this is my personal soapbox anyway :p

Sedulous

Apr 28, 2003, 01:46 AM

I'm curious why all the pro-multi button mice people find it so hard to use key commands? What are you doing with your other hand?

But seriously, the keyboard commands offer way more options than you could ever fit on a mouse.

ewinemiller

Apr 28, 2003, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by jeffberg
And about Windows being easy until you get to photoshop, you need to ****ing right click to rename something in windows ok, that is what happens when you have 2 buttons, people expect you to use them. On our macs we just hit return or even easier, click on the name, and we can rename it, no need to right click go into a contextual menu like you do in windows.

Actually, it works the same way in Windows. You select the object, click on the name and you can edit it. In Explorer, you also have the menu File|Rename. No context required. Last time I read the Windows UI guidelines (granted it's been years), context menus are in addition to regular menus and actions, not to replace them. I don't think any of the applications I use on a daily basis break that.

Mr Jobs

Apr 28, 2003, 06:54 AM

Since its not totally related to this thread i've started a new on regarding the apple mouse and their new mouse patent,

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25488

TheT

Apr 28, 2003, 07:04 AM

The previously available sites apple.com/keyboard (http://www.apple.com/keyboard) and apple.com/mouse (http://www.apple.com/mouse/) are no longer available... as of now, there's a redirect to the Apple Store. Possibly something new today? A "communicating" mouse/keybaord? Bluetooth? We'll see...

mkaake

Apr 28, 2003, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by MorganX
I personally think this whole argument is silly. Even dumb users aren't that dumb. there are more novices using two-buttons on cheap PCs than there are Mac users period.

Apple needs to get over it and move forward, but Steve Jobs' has mental problems.

you obviously don't have grandparents who want to be on the cutting edge of technology but have no idea how to get there...

matt

jayb2000

Apr 28, 2003, 06:12 PM

OK, so some people want 1-button, some want 2.
Personally, I have used Apple IIe up to iMac G3, plus Windows and *nix. Some times multiple buttons are nice and sometimes they are a pain.

I generally use the Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse (3 buttons and wheel). I love it for web surfing because I can do anything (except type) while drinking coffee with my other hand.

However, for my parents and other people who have never used a mouse the Which Button?" question is really a pain, especially when UIs are not consistent. By forcing the 1-button issue, Apple mandates a consistent UI. (well, not 100%, but better than MS).

2 (or 3 or 5) button mice, wireless, etc are not needed to run OS X and are available as options. For people with no experience to computers (including play stations or any other experience) 1 button is simpler.

I suppose one comprimise would be ship a mouse with 2 buttons, but unless you change it in control panel, they do the same thing.:D :D

yzedf

Apr 29, 2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Well, I disagree. Let's not forget that Apple was at one time the most poplular brand for education. Also, people who hate/don't have time to *** with computers but can afford a Mac. They like them too.

Plus, I think a POWER USER can be expected to buy the mouse of their liking. Especially because different professionals have different needs. To some, a two-button mouse (even with a scroll wheel) is almost as useless as a one-button mouse.

All the people who have said "Ah just don't know what ah would do with'aut mah fahv button mouse" wouldn't give a good goddamn if they got a two-button mouse with their mac, they'd STILL have to buy a new one. So who are you pleasing then?

Plus, please don't forget the UI issue. This cannot be stressed enough. Developers will start getting lazy if they can depend on a two-or-better button mouse, and that lowest-common-denomenator, who the mac DOES appeal to, will be left with one less friendly interface. There really is a tremendous amount of evidence to this regard.

I'm right, you're all wrong, even those of you who agree with me, just don't bother to post, this is my personal soapbox anyway :p
I am guessing that POWERUSERS are the ones that are still buying PowerMacs... especially the dual 1.42 :rolleyes:

Apple doesn't have them for one good reason; style.

The UI argument is crap. A UI that requires 2 drastic different styles of inputting data (keyboard and mouse) is bad. That is all that there is to it. Remember, Apple is the company that put the power switch on the keyboard, and nobody could figure it out! Intuitive, or just plain stupid?

My soapbox is taller than your soapbox (and I am prolly taller than you also).