Your Thoughts on the New AAC Format?

[tjwett]

The new Apple Music service seems kinda cool. It brings with it a new audio encoding format called "AAC". I think it can be good for getting smaller files with better quality and allowing more room in my iPod. However the proprietary format thing is kind of scary and it limits "sharing" big time. I'm not sure if I'll partake or start importing to AAC just yet. What are your opinions? BTW the new iPods look sweet.

[Eniregnat]

This should end up being a long thread.

It won't be long before somebody cracks the AAC format, but the real question is will it mater. I think that Apple may have done what the music industry should have done long ago, create an inexpensive download service. I paid for all of the music I listen to, but my collection of CD is also very small. This might increase the number of listeners who have paid for the privilege to listen to music.

As far as the quality, I would have to compare a lossless file to the new AAC format. Audiophiles never can get enough fidelity, so selling them is going to be difficult. The Nyquest theorem holds true, though it has its detractors. So, compressed or not, people like their music and they like it portable, and Apple is banking that AAC is for the “common” person. It is nice is that Apple has not locked out certain formats that are more likely to be “stolen”.

As far as the proprietary fear, I am not worried. DivX (the original), DivX (the reborn), MPx, and AIF all started out as proprietary formats, that have now entered general public use. There is no hint that they will disappear, or are even controlled well. What is bothersome is that everybody must back up their data regularly. It’s once thing to loose or break a $15 CD, it is another thing to loose an iPod with $150 or $1500 dollars worth of music on it.

[Jaykay]

Thats a good point about the losing your iPod files.

I was also thinking *(note im not championing this, its just an observation) that if you write it to a cd and then re-import it (not in aac) wont all the DRM be gone seeing that its coming from an AIFF format which doesnt have DRM?

[Eniregnat]

Yes, that would go for any other format with out a digital rights imbed.

[Jaykay]

Yeah, but apple are probably one of the only companies who are using DRM for the music files but for for limiting cds like sony and microsoft want to do. If they get their way, cds wont be able to be imported at all.

[Eniregnat]

I don't mean to monopolize this thread, but I think your right- at least partially. The music companies (and publishers) have been stuck in the stone ages for a while. Unless Big Brother and the Thought police become a true reality, I don't think that casual user will have much to worry about. The next media standard will probably have some form of digital rights built into it, along with some sort of authorization key. For now, they my try controlling the media, but somebody will always come up with a way around it.

In many respects, music sharing did not kill the industry; the industry killed its self by over valuing its product. AAC and this "new" form of music subscription with expanded rights aims to correct it. It should be noted that the music industry said that CD prices would drop when they were cheaper to produce than tapes. They never did, and what happened, people stole. At the same time the amoebic industry grew, but disporportintly to its need. Just my POV- and an incomplete one at that.

(signing off for the night- Cheers)

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Originally posted by Eniregnat
This should end up being a long thread.

It won't be long before somebody cracks the AAC format, but the real question is will it mater. I think that Apple may have done what the music industry should have done long ago, create an inexpensive download service. I paid for all of the music I listen to, but my collection of CD is also very small. This might increase the number of listeners who have paid for the privilege to listen to music.

As far as the quality, I would have to compare a lossless file to the new AAC format. Audiophiles never can get enough fidelity, so selling them is going to be difficult. The Nyquest theorem holds true, though it has its detractors. So, compressed or not, people like their music and they like it portable, and Apple is banking that AAC is for the ?common? person. It is nice is that Apple has not locked out certain formats that are more likely to be ?stolen?.

As far as the proprietary fear, I am not worried. DivX (the original), DivX (the reborn), MPx, and AIF all started out as proprietary formats, that have now entered general public use. There is no hint that they will disappear, or are even controlled well. What is bothersome is that everybody must back up their data regularly. It?s once thing to loose or break a $15 CD, it is another thing to loose an iPod with $150 or $1500 dollars worth of music on it.

That's why you can burn the whole thing to a DVD. Granted, you need a burner, but still - its a feature that seems to be designed for an easy backup.

[Sakino]

Can this ACC format be conversted to cd format?
Is apples music censored? Like if I were to download eminem, am I not going to hear ****** you b#@#$?
Just some questions?

Because I feel apple is a great company, and I am waiting for my first purchase of an apple product.

I still don't care much for the current cdr's that are released now a days. They last about 6 months with heavy usage! This can be a pain, especially if you listen to music in the cd player on the road? Ipod would be great if it could hook up to the a cd player in the car.

[arn]

Originally posted by Sakino
Can this ACC format be conversted to cd format?
Is apples music censored? Like if I were to download eminem, am I not going to hear ****** you b#@#$?
Just some questions?


AAC's (even these bought ones) can be burnt to CD's, and there isn't any censorship.

arn

[ibookin']

Originally posted by Sakino
Can this ACC format be conversted to cd format?
Is apples music censored? Like if I were to download eminem, am I not going to hear ****** you b#@#$?
Just some questions?

Because I feel apple is a great company, and I am waiting for my first purchase of an apple product.

I still don't care much for the current cdr's that are released now a days. They last about 6 months with heavy usage! This can be a pain, especially if you listen to music in the cd player on the road? Ipod would be great if it could hook up to the a cd player in the car.

It says either "Explicit" or "Clean" when you look for it in iTunes.

[Macpoops]

I don't see how AAC is a proprietary format. It is a core piece in the MPEG 4 standard. Which is an open standard if i am not mistaken. Apple is just the first person to jump on the bandwagon with it. There are plugins for winamp and the like to support AAC. Windows media formats are proprietary. AAC and MPEG 4 are standards, new standards, but standards none the less.

[Xero]

question: if i start ripping my cd's to AAC [not buying from the music store] will i have the "3 macs" or "10 burns per playlist" limitation? this wasnt very clear in the things ive read so far. im hoping this stuff only applies to the downloaded music... though its pretty unlikely that ill burn ten copies of one cd, since ive bought about 95% of my collection in cd format anyways. :rolleyes:

on another note, though i think this whole music service is a great idea/solution to much of the music industry BS, i found it kind of dissapointing that you can only download songs in 128kbit constant bitrate. itd be nice to go higher or go VBR.

[Eniregnat]

Yes, from what Apple has said I think that you might run into a problem. You might be limited to playing your songs on only 3 Mac's, but their is a way around it. Don't rip to AAC or use another format.

What makes the AAC propitiatory are the digital rights inherent with the format.

Here is something interesting for somebody to do (I don't have OSX so I can try this.), but take a song and rip it to AAC and then do it a second time. Then look at the file using a Hex editor, and see if their is a difference. I get a feeling that there will be a minute difference. I think each file, regardless of content spawns its own serial number for tracking.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by Eniregnat
Yes, from what Apple has said I think that you might run into a problem. You might be limited to playing your songs on only 3 Mac's, but their is a way around it. Don't rip to AAC or use another format.


No, i sincerely doubt this is true. I would be willing to put money on it in fact (granted not very much money because im cheap... but thats another story).

[Eniregnat]

JayKay I hope your right. But for now I'll stick to my thoughts until somebody does some tests, or can report back differently. If ripping the same song, twice on the same computer, generates two slightly different files, then the architecture is there to in force the limit. Again the only way to test this is to do it and compare the files at the hex or bin level.

In any case, it doesn’t matter because there is ether a way around it, or it their will be no reason to get around it for a persons personal riped audio files.

[zarathustra]

Originally posted by Eniregnat
JayKay I hope your right. But for now I'll stick to my thoughts until somebody does some tests, or can report back differently. If ripping the same song, twice on the same computer, generates two slightly different files, then the architecture is there to in force the limit. Again the only way to test this is to do it and compare the files at the hex or bin level.

In any case, it doesn?t matter because there is ether a way around it, or it their will be no reason to get around it for a persons personal riped audio files.

I have ripped some songs off a CD into AAC, and it did not ask or complain when I put it on my iPod, and copied to other machines... The DRM only applies to AAC encoded files bought from the Music Center.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by Eniregnat
JayKay I hope your right. But for now I'll stick to my thoughts until somebody does some tests, or can report back differently. If ripping the same song, twice on the same computer, generates two slightly different files, then the architecture is there to in force the limit. Again the only way to test this is to do it and compare the files at the hex or bin level.

In any case, it doesn?t matter because there is ether a way around it, or it their will be no reason to get around it for a persons personal riped audio files.

There are legal loopholes, apple has no right to enforce copy protection on something you yourself might very well own all the rights to (like your own music or something), well thats my theory anyways..

[Eniregnat]

Loop holes or not, I am just writing about the mechanics.
Also, I think they can if it is in a proprietary format. They are just limiting the use of a single file, they aren’t limiting you from copying the original multiple times. There is a problem with that, though, as we are only allowed- thought copyright law- a single copy to use as ether as backup or to use.
For the first time, in mass, somebody is trying to regulate how we copy. It wasn’t done with audio tape, video tape was a dismal failure, DVDs have failed, so if it works then we have some new worries.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by Eniregnat
Loop holes or not, I am just writing about the mechanics.
Also, I think they can if it is in a proprietary format. They are just limiting the use of a single file, they aren?t limiting you from copying the original multiple times. There is a problem with that, though, as we are only allowed- thought copyright law- a single copy to use as ether as backup or to use.
For the first time, in mass, somebody is trying to regulate how we copy. It wasn?t done with audio tape, video tape was a dismal failure, DVDs have failed, so if it works then we have some new worries.

Yeah i hear ya, but aac isnt a proprietary format its an open standard (under the MPEG council). But i can see apple taking the line - if ya want lots of copies and stuff use the mp3 importer on itunes or something. (but im still convinced apple dont give a toss about the copy protection aspect and its just there to please the record companies).

[i_wolf]

What i think is a big pity is that PC owners (which lets be honest, will probably buy this in droves, and will probably buy more than the mac community) cannot take advantage of aac. I wouldn't mind if they offered the pc community WMA or OGG instead. Hell all of apple's competitors do this, they offer both WMA and MP3. I think that apple deliberately crippled the PC version of the ipod. I hope they add the AAC compatibility back in.
Furthermore, isn't it a pity that they dont ship an ipod that is compatible with both pc and mac, like the way creative do with their zen. I own both a PC and a Mac, and id love to be able to just move my new ipod between systems.

[bonehead]

Yes, from what Apple has said I think that you might run into a problem. You might be limited to playing your songs on only 3 Mac's, but their is a way around it. Don't rip to AAC or use another format.

What makes the AAC propitiatory are the digital rights inherent with the format.



AAC is not an Apple proprietary format. It is part of the MPEG-4 standard and was developed, at least in part, by Dolby Labs. Also, the 3 Mac rule only applies to songs purchased from the iTunes Music Store. There is another thread that goes into more detail here:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=25609 (http://http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=25609)


As far as the quality of AAC, last night I imported some tracks from a CD using the AAC encoder in iTunes and it sounded fine through the earbuds. I'm going to listen with better headphones and do an A/B comparison with the CD to see if I can really tell the difference.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by i_wolf
What i think is a big pity is that PC owners (which lets be honest, will probably buy this in droves, and will probably buy more than the mac community) cannot take advantage of aac. I wouldn't mind if they offered the pc community WMA or OGG instead. Hell all of apple's competitors do this, they offer both WMA and MP3. I think that apple deliberately crippled the PC version of the ipod. I hope they add the AAC compatibility back in.
Furthermore, isn't it a pity that they dont ship an ipod that is compatible with both pc and mac, like the way creative do with their zen. I own both a PC and a Mac, and id love to be able to just move my new ipod between systems.

Well, multiple points :


Plug-ins can be gotten for music players on the pc to use aac.
iTunes is probably going to brought to pc anyways which will have aac built in.
Version 1.3 of the ipod software works on the pc ipod too (i think)
Now they do have an ipod for both computers in the same box.


Thats my theory anyways (well its not really a theory is it?)

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by bonehead
AAC is not an Apple proprietary format. It is part of the MPEG-4 standard and was developed, at least in part, by Dolby Labs. Also, the 3 Mac rule only applies to songs purchased from the iTunes Music Store. There is another thread that goes into more detail here:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=25609 (http://http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=25609)


As far as the quality of AAC, last night I imported some tracks from a CD using the AAC encoder in iTunes and it sounded fine through the earbuds. I'm going to listen with better headphones and do an A/B comparison with the CD to see if I can really tell the difference.

Is it just me or is that exactly what i said in my above posts? :confused:

[i_wolf]

tá brón orm Jay-Kay

I didnt' read the small print properly! RTFM.... and it says, one ipod will work with both apple and pc. And you are right about the aac, apple said that software will be released in June for the win version so that it can use aac as well! Hopefully itunes for PC (fingers crossed)
Cheers mate,
have a good one
i_wolf

[King Cobra]

[stepping in...]

I was a little disappointed. AAC is supposed to be the audio form of MPEG-4.

Knowing that I can achieve the quality of a 128Kbps MPEG-1 file with a 64Kbps MPEG-2 file (you can do that with iTunes), I was expecting to achieve the same quality with a 32Kbps AAC file. That was not the case. I could only achieve that at around 56Kbps.

[stepping out...]

[tpjunkie]

I was a little disappointed. AAC is supposed to be the audio form of MPEG-4.

Knowing that I can achieve the quality of a 128Kbps MPEG-1 file with a 64Kbps MPEG-2 file (you can do that with iTunes), I was expecting to achieve the same quality with a 32Kbps AAC file. That was not the case. I could only achieve that at around 56Kbps.



AAC is the the audio the layer of MPEG-4

Not sure what you meant by that, MPEG-4 doesn't mean that the file output at the same quality is 4 times smaller...its just a number in a series assigned by the motion picture experts group for the compression format...

edited to stick the quote in

[MrMacMan]

I wanted OGG type quality, it is close to it but apple needs slightly higher bit rate files. Maybe 160?

A little higher and it would be great.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by i_wolf
tá brón orm Jay-Kay

I didnt' read the small print properly! RTFM.... and it says, one ipod will work with both apple and pc. And you are right about the aac, apple said that software will be released in June for the win version so that it can use aac as well! Hopefully itunes for PC (fingers crossed)
Cheers mate,
have a good one
i_wolf

I appreciate the sentiment, beidh craic agus ólta agam ar feadh an óiche seo go léir.

[i_wolf]

Excellent
Cá bhfuil tú i do chonaith?
Mise, táim as baile átha cliath.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by i_wolf
Excellent
Cá bhfuil tú i do chonaith?
Mise, táim as baile átha cliath.

Tá me in ollscoil na h-Eireann i nGaillimh, and cheann is fearr.

This is irish for anybody who wnats to know.....

[dobbin]

Apologies for taking the thread off topic (it's kind of already gone!) but does anyone actually speak Irish in Ireland. Do you have everything written in 2 languages like they do in Wales. Apologies to any Welsh people but it always seems so pointless to have welsh road signs on the M4. I bet anyone who can only speak Welsh and not English would never drive on a motorway ;)

[MorganX]

Originally posted by tjwett
The new Apple Music service seems kinda cool. It brings with it a new audio encoding format called "AAC". I think it can be good for getting smaller files with better quality and allowing more room in my iPod. However the proprietary format thing is kind of scary and it limits "sharing" big time. I'm not sure if I'll partake or start importing to AAC just yet. What are your opinions? BTW the new iPods look sweet.

AAC is not proprietary.

The music industry can only win. This service is not going to make more people pirate. It is going to make less people pirate, or at the least make people pirate less. That's means money in the pockets of the recording industry that they were not getting two days ago.

I've purchased 20 songs in two days. I've purchased 2 CDs in two years previously.

If the library continues to grow, this will be very successful. Only thing, I was planning on putting all my MP3's on my xbox with a new mixer for Xbox coming out. It doesn't do AAC. This has potential to be a major roadblock for MS' WM9 at least the audio codec.