17" MacBookPro C2D Colour Banding Problem / LCD Quality Observations / OSX Users

[geehk]

Please don't take this story personally if you have just bought a C2D MBP and you are happy with it - enjoy it and read no further!

I spent quite a few hours looking at reviews of the 15" and 17" MacBook Pro C2D (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html) on this site and others prior to making a purchase. My main concern was the quality of the MBP LCDs as many people have found them questionable - others seem to be in denial about the 'actual' quality of their MBP displays maybe because they are happy with the raw processing speed and the fact that it looks great - everyones expectations differ depending on what they use the machine for. I use the laptop for Photography, Colour Correction and Design whilst I'm on the move so I need a decent display. Like many, I'm an OSX user so my options on laptops are limited to Apple only! I need to use RAW software like Aperture or Lightroom which really means a MBP is the only option as it has a decent graphics chipset and good size screen.

I've had several Powerbooks before and found the screen pretty acceptable for viewing angle, colour rendition and detail - not perfect but OK. I did have one of the Powerbooks affected by white blotches and I'm familiar with usual uneven backlight issues. I'm not getting into glossy or matte issues - I need a neutral canvas for colour correction work on the move so I prefer matt.

I sold my last Powerbook to a friend and bought a 15" C2D MBP. In my opinion, I found the screen uncomfortable to look at due to odd viewing angle problems which could be due to the reflective quality of the anti-glare coating used. The coating also seemed to add a textured appearance to the screen - others call it grain (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=251352). Unless your head is always completely perpendicular to the LCD, the appearance of the edges of the screen cannot be seen perfectly - it's annoying especially if you are judging photos for quality or doing design work etc..

I ran a program called LCD Test (http://macupdate.com/info.php/id/15119), it contains test charts for judging your LCD quality. I looked at the uniform grey background test charts (dark, medium and light). After the MBP warmed up, the Illumination across the display looked OK - left, right & top edges were slightly dark and the bottom edge was bright - like most laptops are. On looking at the RGB and CMY gradient charts it became very clear that the LCD showed strong Colour Banding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_banding) :eek: (the graduation between one colour and the next is not smooth enough to display the transition accurately). On some transitions, there appeared to be heavier (darker) bands where the LCD was just not coping well at all at a particular luminance level.

I returned the 15" MBP C2D back to the shop and tested another unit - I found the same thing! I decided to order a 17" MBP C2D (Matt) and waited three weeks to get it :-( I'm in Hong Kong and even though they are made just up the road, the first orders went to USA and Europe. I went into the shop today, apprehensively, to test it out and left as a disappointed / jilted mac lover with no computer!:(

The 17" MBP C2D LCD is a little better than the 15" for viewing angle and does not seem to have as much texture/grain. It does not look as matt as the 15", in fact it had a slight gloss/shine to it. On warming up the screen for 30 mins the backlighting seemed acceptable although a little darker than the 15" on left, right and top. Although the brightness on the 17" display seems a little less bright than the 15" the overall feeling was more comfortable on the eye. On running the LCD Test charts on the 17" the Colour Banding problem was pretty bad! I tried different colour profiles and adjusted gamma settings, resolutions and re-calibrated just to sure - no real difference!

In shock, I asked to run the test charts on the other macs including a final revision 17" Powerbook side by side. (Please see the results below) These findings were also reflected by the staff at the shop. They all knew the score, so many customers have said the same thing - like it or not, the new MBP LCDs have problems - and if the problems are 'within Apple specification' then they are low specification LCD's period. You either void the warranty and change the LCD yourself or hope and pray that apple changes their Laptop LCD supplier immediately ready for the next revision!

Come on Apple, admit it please! If the Intel C2D processors are costing you too much, don't skimp on the LCD to keep the MBP price down and think people won't notice!:mad: At least provide a top class LCD as a built to order option and support the people who rely on that option, hey, anodise it Black and call it the MacBookPro 'Ultimate' if you want, just deliver the goods as the core OS X users expect! If not the only option is to switch to Windows to have a real choice in laptops and that defeats the Apple OS X marketing campaign doesn't it?


This is a table of my findings - it's not scientific but it gives an idea of what to expect.....

Model................. | Viewing Angle |Colour Rendition |Colour Banding| Brightness
MBP 15" C2D Matt | Annoying.........| OK.................| Banded..........| Very Good
MBP 17" C2D Matt | Average..........| OK.................| Very Banded...| Good
Powerbook 17".....| Good............. | Good..............| Smooth..........| OK
Macbook 13" .......| Average..........| OK.................| Smooth..........| OK
iMac 20" C2D ......| Good..............| Excellent.........| Smooth..........| Excellent
iMac 24" C2D.......| Excellent.........| Excellent.........| Very Smooth...| Excellent

Maybe there are so many Windows users happy to have a cool looking MBP laptop afterall that no-one cares about screen perfection too much. The top end Apple Laptop should have a spec like the VAIO VGN-AR28GP (http://www.sonystyle.com.hk/ss/vaio/product/vgn_ar28gp/specifications.html) even if it costs a more for the pro options.

I'm not sure what to do next - I need a Powerbook replacement that runs the latest OS X software fast! Any input for the banding issue would be most appreciated - your mileage may differ but I spent a good deal of time comparing all the machines I could - the shop staff were very understanding. I heard rumour of a Dithering problem with the ATI x1600 graphics card. I asked the shop about this and they said that the Apple Technicians told them the colour banding was due to the LCD characteristics only. I was hoping to apply a graphics card firmware update and take the 17" home there and then, but it seems more fundamental than that, unfortunately. If there is a fix, I would love to hear it! :o

The Color Banding problem I observed on the MacBook Pro's were similar to this, where you can see defined lines on a gradient like the display is not showing all colours - graphic card was set to display millions of colours:
http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_band_example.jpg
If you want to download a test gradient and check yours click here> Granger Test (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg) or Gammut Test (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)
All the best to everyone - sorry for the long post!

[alFR]

Hmmm... the specs on the Apple site say that the MBP display supports "millions of colours". If that's true, then it must be at least a 24-bit GFX card and an 8-bit LCD panel, no? So, if you're seeing obvious banding on this display with gradients that should be smooth on a millions of colours display, either the graphics card was set wrong (to less than millions of colours) or the panel isn't an 8-bit one, it's 6-bit. If that's the case, Apple is guilty of false advertising.

Anyone out there got a way of measuring how many colours one of these displays can really show?

[AppleKrate]

I too have some screen issues - gradient banding and also a darker vertical area (see below) so thanks for your good research, but can I just point out that the link for LCDTest that you gave is to the new version (2.0) which doesn't seem to have the gradient test - the earlier version http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/23237 has more features :confused:

I have a darker vertical area, mid screen, noticeable with a solid colour desktop background. Here's the thing... I ran LCDTest (v 1.1) there's a colour screen test is in the 'pixels' tab. On R G B and light gray, the screen is perfect - no darker areas - but on the mid grey, there is the darker vertical area again!
Wierd!

Also check this thread http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3615129#3615129

If you have the problem, then it should be fairly apparent on the following picture:
http://home.comcast.net/~scott.beatson/gradient_copy.jpg

If it doesn't look like it, it is in fact a smooth gradient (I have confirmed it on several other computers).

Could it be a software thing (some color profile issue)? I'm not an expert on that but when you open the image in Firefox, the gradient looks fine. On Safari and Preview, it shows the problem as you describe.

Update: On Photoshop (I'm using CS2), go to View > Proof Setup > Select 'Monitor RGB'. Then check View > Proof Colors. It will show the corrected gradient.

[geehk]

[I]If you have the problem, then it should be fairly apparent on the following picture:
http://home.comcast.net/~scott.beatson/gradient_copy.jpg

If it doesn't look like it, it is in fact a smooth gradient (I have confirmed it on several other computers).



Thanks for your input! Just to confirm, I used LCD Test v2 as originally linked. Using the Colour Gradients Verification. By pressing space bar it displays many different types of RGB & CYM gradients so you can assess how your LCD/Graphics Card handles transitions (Not just Red to Black).

Transitions on these 'Colour Gradients' are repeatedly poor on both 17" and 15" MBP C2D models. Could it be ATI x1600 firmware or Cheaper 6 Bit TN LCD's in the laptops? I hope there is a technician who can put this to rest :o

The problem I am aware of is not backlighting ie. uneven illumination of parts of the screen - that happens on most Laptops and it's luck of the draw. Most are OK after a warm up - photos of the screen make it look worse as the dynamic range of the photo is less than the eye etc.

[PDE]

Hmmm... the specs on the Apple site say that the MBP display supports "millions of colours". If that's true, then it must be at least a 24-bit GFX card and an 8-bit LCD panel, no? So, if you're seeing obvious banding on this display with gradients that should be smooth on a millions of colours display, either the graphics card was set wrong (to less than millions of colours) or the panel isn't an 8-bit one, it's 6-bit. If that's the case, Apple is guilty of false advertising.

Anyone out there got a way of measuring how many colours one of these displays can really show?

I did the same banding test with the same results.

[PDE]

I did the same banding test with the same results.

I just remember looking up the samsung and chimei displays on their respective sites and I thinking that it was odd that in the specifications it said that they support 256k colors. I don't know what is going on, but perhaps this is a clue? I don't remember if both displays panels had that specification, but I know one did.

[geehk]

I did the same banding test with the same results.

I did have a look at ATI's website and found a thread with users having similar issues. Apparently a Dithering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithering#Dithering_examples) feature of graphics cards can drive a 6 Bit LCD to make any gradients look smooth as if they were displayed on a 8 Bit LCD.

If the LCD's in the MBP's are only a cheaper 6 Bit model and the graphics card is set correctly for the LCD, I'm hoping 'dithering' should solve any visible banding. I'm no expert I'm just 'dithering' and reading between the lines ;). Anyone in-the-know willing to comment on a possible solution? What type of LCD's are they using? Does the brand/type of LCD they use differ between batch?

I've had the 'Millions of Colours' setting enabled when I've done my testing. Apple's specification sheet (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html) says 'Support for Millions of Colours' - maybe they mean that the graphics card can support millions but the LCD can't display them!

These are thumbnails of the type of test gradient charts I mean. On the MBP C2D 15" and 17" you could clearly see curved banding lines where the machine was having problems displaying the subtle differences between the colours - these thumbnails are for reference only, not a good size for a test!

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/RGB_GRADIENT.jpg http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/CMY_GRADIENT.jpg

[prplmnkydshwshr]

Just curious, other than the test gradient patterns are there any signs of this color banding problem in your daily usage of the machine? Apple have proposed upgrading my base stock 15" MBP C2D for free to a 17" model due to getting 3 defective 15" machines in a row, so I just wanted to be aware of any potential LCD issues on the 17" before I accept that offer. Thanks.

[AppleKrate]

Just curious, other than the test gradient patterns are there any signs of this color banding problem in your daily usage of the machine? Apple have proposed upgrading my base stock 15" MBP C2D for free to a 17" model due to getting 3 defective 15" machines in a row, so I just wanted to be aware of any potential LCD issues on the 17" before I accept that offer. Thanks.

I've only just got my machine, and haven't had a chance to start working properly on it, so I am asking myself that same question, hence my contribution s to this thread... I do graphic work on my mac - my MBP is a replacement for a G4 tower with Studio Display - so if it isn't genuinely millions of colours there is a potential issue... I am trying to work out if it's an issue I should return the machine over, or whether, if indeed there are general MBPC2D display issues, I should hold on to my machine, as it's not as bad as some I have heard of... what I really hope is that there will be a firmware fix, but who knows? Advice gratefully received :confused:

[AppleKrate]

I did have a look at ATI's website and found a thread with users having similar issues. Apparently a Dithering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithering#Dithering_examples) feature of graphics cards can drive a 6 Bit LCD to make any gradients look smooth as if they were displayed on a 8 Bit LCD.

If the LCD's in the MBP's are only a cheaper 6 Bit model and the graphics card is set correctly for the LCD, I'm hoping 'dithering' should solve any visible banding. I'm no expert I'm just 'dithering' and reading between the lines ;). Anyone in-the-know willing to comment on a possible solution? What type of LCD's are they using? Does the brand/type of LCD they use differ between batch?

I've had the 'Millions of Colours' setting enabled when I've done my testing. Apple's specification sheet (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html) says 'Support for Millions of Colours' - maybe they mean that the graphics card can support millions but the LCD can't display them!

These are thumbnails of the type of test gradient charts I mean. On the MBP C2D 15" and 17" you could clearly see curved banding lines where the machine was having problems displaying the subtle differences between the colours - these thumbnails are for reference only, not a good size for a test!

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/RGB_GRADIENT.jpg http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/CMY_GRADIENT.jpg

ASP says the display in my MBPC2D17" is 32bit? when I set the display to 'thousands' of colours, the gradient test results are slightly better (less noticeable banding) than 'millions' :eek: Also, as posted below, Firefox shows much less banding of the same image than Safari (or Preview)
Soemthing ain't right! Should I return it :confused:

[geehk]

Just curious, other than the test gradient patterns are there any signs of this color banding problem in your daily usage of the machine? Apple have proposed upgrading my base stock 15" MBP C2D for free to a 17" model due to getting 3 defective 15" machines in a row, so I just wanted to be aware of any potential LCD issues on the 17" before I accept that offer. Thanks.

I refused to buy the 17" MBP C2D as I was aware of the problem on the 15" version. If you have had 3 faulty 15" MBP C2D's I would make sure you flag the potential shortfalls of the 17" replacement with Apple before you get it. In my opinion (and the Salesman's opinion) the 17" suffered worse banding - he suggested I took the 15" - then I explained again I was trying to get away from the 15"! They were both faulty anyway - do you buy a faulty machine from new even if you are needy for a replacement? Not this time.

As I was in the shop testing it (for an hour and a half!) I did get all the Apple Desktop Pictures and looked at them in the Preview App as a slide show. The problem was visible only on images with very subtle transitions like the ones in the 'Abstract' folder. If you were doing some Photoshop or Illustrator and creating subtle blends for a design it would be obvious (and hinder your workflow). If you were working on Photos with subtle graduations, it would also be obvious (is it a camera fault or colour correction error?). Ideally images should be viewed 1:1 ie. actual size with no zooming/interpolation.

The 'Acid Test' with display devices is using a test chart (or test program) to check any problems. Bottom line is that the LCD should display smooth graduations especially if people have been told that the display is 8 bit per component (R,G,B). This is how an engineer would tell if the display device is working as it should - normal 'Photos' as a test are too subjective. It's only when you see a perfect display device next to a faulty one do you realise that it is in fact broken!

As I haven't got a machine to test now :( I'm relying on people with a MBP C2D to find some clues. It might be good to test the 15" & 17" with some full screen (1680x1050 etc.) test charts made in Photoshop using the gradient tool (in spectrum mode). I found a site which has a method for doing this Here (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/test-charts.shtml)

At least this way we would know if there were any funnies happening with the LCD Test program versus the x1600 graphics card. I don't think this is the case though as I tested the program on a 17" Powerbook (last model), 20" (ATI x1600 128mb) & 24" (nVidea 7300) and the images looked perfect on those - it's worth checking though.

The bottom line is, I won't be buying one until the problem is fixed. Apple have a habit of releasing things before they are ready and making their customers pay $ then allow them to run around or wait for a solution. The fact is, on production lines they test devices as they are made with Oscilloscopes and Test Charts and stuff like that. They know if it is working before they send it out don't they?

All the best, I hope we can get to the bottom of this! I'll keep checking MacUpdate.com for a firmware release! (It's been a month now no? or is it the LCD?) I just want to find a solution so I can hand over my OSX laptop ransom money to Apple too ;) ....

[prplmnkydshwshr]

geehk, thanks for your reply. Did you happen to look at the post mentioned earlier in this thread in the Apple forums. Some users there only noticed the grains in specific programs, and one user reported no banding at all with LCDTest.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3615129

I guess one way to check if it is truly software or hardware is to have people hook up external monitors to the MBP and see if the banding is consistent across both LCDs.

[Cybergypsy]

I am happy I did not get rid of my macbook for the pro after reading this post.....

[alFR]

Just to throw another variable into the mix, I noticed this on the download page for LCDtest, under the "new in version 2.0" section:

"changed color gradient pattern to leverage Quartz engine directly (not working well) "

Maybe this effect is due to a bug in the LCDtest software and how it interacts with the graphics drivers in the MBP?

[geehk]

Just to throw another variable into the mix, I noticed this on the download page for LCDtest, under the "new in version 2.0" section:

"changed color gradient pattern to leverage Quartz engine directly (not working well) "

Maybe this effect is due to a bug in the LCDtest software and how it interacts with the graphics drivers in the MBP?

Possible, but there is a non 'Quartz' Graduation Mode in the program too. I tried both and got similar 'banded' results on both 15" and 17" C2D MBP's - the quartz version looks a tiny bit more pixelated but it's subtle. I also saw the colour banding problem whilst viewing the desktop pictures in OSX's 'Abstract' Folder.

If you see banding on your machine try colour gradients generated a number of ways just to be sure.

There is another thread on Apple's site (mentioned a couple of posts ago). One guy noticed the problem as he was doing his usual Photoshoping. Many agree there is a problem with their units without using 'LCD Test'.

Maybe someone with a MBP C2D & Photoshop can make some full-spectrum gradients and post their results? This is the method for making gradient test charts as suggested by the guys at Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/test-charts.shtml) a photography site.

To be honest, I hope it's just a horrible nightmare, the banding is just a figment of everyones imagination and I can go out an get a new 17" MBP!

[prplmnkydshwshr]

There is another thread on Apple's site (mentioned a couple of posts ago). One guy noticed the problem as he was doing his usual Photoshoping. Many agree there is a problem with their units without using 'LCD Test'.


That specific user reported the gradient looked normal in Photoshop after someone suggested the following:

"Update: On Photoshop (I'm using CS2), go to View > Proof Setup > Select 'Monitor RGB'. Then check View > Proof Colors. It will show the corrected gradient."

If you look at the Apple thread, the consensus right now is the banding appears different in various applications, some have it while others don't, so it could be software problem

[geehk]

That specific user reported the gradient looked normal in Photoshop after someone suggested the following:

"Update: On Photoshop (I'm using CS2), go to View > Proof Setup > Select 'Monitor RGB'. Then check View > Proof Colors. It will show the corrected gradient."

If you look at the Apple thread, the consensus right now is the banding appears different in various applications, some have it while others don't, so it could be software problem

OK. If that's the case maybe others can test it on their new 15" or 17" C2D machines on various software - I don't have one now. I made some 17" size (1680x1050) test charts in Photoshop - they are JPEG's at 100% Quality to save bandwidth should be OK - look V smooth on this Gateway LCD.

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test_small.jpg
Full Size Version Here (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test_small.jpg
Full Size Version Here (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

[brikeh]

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test_small.jpg
Full Size Version Here (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test_small.jpg
Full Size Version Here (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

Thanks for the wallpaper :D

J/K

[ProMod]

This is a definite problem. Looking at these sample images on my 1.25 ghz PB G4 15", the gradients are perfectly smooth.

On my brand new 17" MBP C2D, I have definite lines separating the colors.

Calling AppleCare. Horrible.

[prplmnkydshwshr]

This is a definite problem. Looking at these sample images on my 1.25 ghz PB G4 15", the gradients are perfectly smooth.

On my brand new 17" MBP C2D, I have definite lines separating the colors.

Calling AppleCare. Horrible.

Can you at least hook up an external monitor to see if the banding is carried over to the other LCD signifying a potential software issue?

[Blublub]

Hmmm, where are you finding the LCD Test app that allows viewing of gradients? The one linked in the first post only seems to run five single-color screens. There's no documentation, preferences or help - am I missing something?

However, viewing the test graphics posted here on my 15" C2D with glossy in Preview shows no banding at all that I can see.

[glhiii]

The banding does not appear on a Cinema 20" display connected to the new MBP 17, but of course it DOES appear on the MBP's screen (matte). It doesn't bother me, as I use the machine mainly for text -- and it certainly doesn't appear when I view photos. I used the latest 17" Pbk until I got the MBP, and I like the MBP screen much better -- it's brighter and easier to see. I can imagine, though, that this would be a serious issue for a graphics professional.

[ProMod]

Can you at least hook up an external monitor to see if the banding is carried over to the other LCD signifying a potential software issue?

I don't have an external monitor handy right now. I already called Apple and they offered to send a replacement with no hesitation. I have the bright light leak from the bottom really bad and pretty bad illumination overall.

If my next one is the same way, I'm sending it back, getting a 24" iMac and keeping my trusty old Powerbook.

[kubla]

I ran these tests on my PBG4 and my new MBP C2D. I note virtually no difference. Both are 17".

[ProMod]

I ran these tests on my PBG4 and my new MBP C2D. I note virtually no difference. Both are 17".

Kubla, can you check to see what the model number is for the display on your MBP?

[Blublub]

Hmmm, where are you finding the LCD Test app that allows viewing of gradients? The one linked in the first post only seems to run five single-color screens. There's no documentation, preferences or help - am I missing something?

Anyone? I'd love to test the grads but can't seem to enable it with the LCD Test app. TIA.

[e12a]

ask those people who have replaced their lcds with higher resolution lcds to see if they have any banding. This would isolate it to either the LCD or x1600.

[AppleKrate]

Kubla, can you check to see what the model number is for the display on your MBP?

Where do you find that? Apple System Profiler doesn't give me a model number (does say Depth 32 bit color)

gradient tests are displaying v bad, they look better on my Studio Display even when it's set to thousands of colours :mad:

[AppleKrate]

Anyone? I'd love to test the grads but can't seem to enable it with the LCD Test app. TIA.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/23237

[gr8tfly]

OK. If that's the case maybe others can test it on their new 15" or 17" C2D machines on various software - I don't have one now. I made some 17" size (1680x1050) test charts in Photoshop - they are JPEG's at 100% Quality to save bandwidth should be OK - look V smooth on this Gateway LCD.


On 17" MBP C2D: Although I saw definite banding with the LCD test app, I can barely see any discernible banding on either of your images (had to look a couple times to see any). In other words, at first glance, no banding. The 2nd, of the two, seems to have some artifacts in the image itself, very difficult to see any in the display. Based on what I saw in LCD Test, I was very surprised NOT to see any real problem in these test JPGs. Thanks for the images, btw.

It would be interesting to try and duplicate LCD Test's gradient in Photoshop.

[ProMod]

Where do you find that? Apple System Profiler doesn't give me a model number (does say Depth 32 bit color)

gradient tests are displaying v bad, they look better on my Studio Display even when it's set to thousands of colours :mad:

Go to sys prefs-displays-color-choose a color profile, click open profile, then roll down to #13. It shows your model number there.

[kubla]

As requested, here is the display info for my MDP:

Manufacturer: 00000610
Model: 00009C62

[AppleKrate]

As requested, here is the display info for my MDP:

Manufacturer: 00000610
Model: 00009C62

Ok, mine is the same (and I have bad gradients :confused: :confused: :confused: )

serial no 00000000
manufacture date C05DFF00

[kubla]

First, I'm using LCDTest v2.0b from http://www.bjorgs.com/

Second, without using Quartz, some banding is visible on my MBP 17". My PBG4 17" is marginally better.

Third, using Quartz, very little banding remains on my MBP. My PBG4 is marginally better.

Fourth, using the test images from this thread, I can't see any significant banding on either computer.

My conclusion: The PBG4 is better, but only marginally. Quartz reduces banding. The LCDTest utility may be causing the problem.

[ProMod]

Ok, mine is the same (and I have bad gradients :confused: :confused: :confused: )

serial no 00000000
manufacture date C05DFF00

Mine is the same too. Oh well, it's already on its way back to apple. The horrible backlight bleeding at the bottom was more of my concern anyway. If that is fixed on my next one, I can live with the gradient thing.

[gr8tfly]

Mine is the same too. Oh well, it's already on its way back to apple. The horrible backlight bleeding at the bottom was more of my concern anyway. If that is fixed on my next one, I can live with the gradient thing.

I have the same backlight bleeding along the bottom. It's pretty even, and just slightly worse than I saw on my PB 17", which I considered "perfect". The rest of the display is pretty even, and no dead pixels, so guess I'm going to live with it. All the other displays at the store have some bleeding along the bottom, as have all the other notebooks I've owned. Just some a tad worse/better than others.

The first 17" C2D I opened at store (after buying) at a bad hot spot in upper right corner. No problem swapping at Apple Stores for a good one, though.

edit: I'll be very interested, though, if you do find one without or significantly less bleeding along the bottom edge.

[AppleKrate]

First, I'm using LCDTest v2.0b from http://www.bjorgs.com/

Second, without using Quartz, some banding is visible on my MBP 17". My PBG4 17" is marginally better.

Third, using Quartz, very little banding remains on my MBP. My PBG4 is marginally better.

Fourth, using the test images from this thread, I can't see any significant banding on either computer.

My conclusion: The PBG4 is better, but only marginally. Quartz reduces banding. The LCDTest utility may be causing the problem.

Hi kubla

thanks for the link to LCDTest v2.0b - it's not on version tracker - prob why others have been using 1.1

yes, using the 'with quartz' setting on 2.0b there is little banding on my machine either, but I can't get it to cycle to the next test ie with the colours in different corners, like the non-quartz setting does. I notice that in the non quartz test, it depends on which corner the red is in how bad the banding is - in one of them (red in lower right) the banding is hardly there... so I would need to see another corner of the quartz test to judge the true difference

In any case I can't see that the problem is with the LCDTest utility... I found the utility because there was a problem, which still exists viewing gradients in Preview, Photoshop, Safari... I am comparing the same images (and LCDTest BTW) on a 17" Studio Display off a G4

[ProMod]

I have the same backlight bleeding along the bottom. It's pretty even, and just slightly worse than I saw on my PB 17", which I considered "perfect". The rest of the display is pretty even, and no dead pixels, so guess I'm going to live with it. All the other displays at the store have some bleeding along the bottom, as have all the other notebooks I've owned. Just some a tad worse/better than others.

The first 17" C2D I opened at store (after buying) at a bad hot spot in upper right corner. No problem swapping at Apple Stores for a good one, though.

edit: I'll be very interested, though, if you do find one without or significantly less bleeding along the bottom edge.

I will let you know if it is any better. But I see a maxed out 24" iMac in my future if it isn't, as I am expecting. It's pretty bad when the consumer product outshines the pro product in all the pro categories.

I have never seen this bleeding on any other laptops. Not my friend's, father's, colleagues. I have never seen this before the MBPs. I am typing on a first rev. 1.25 ghz 15" PB from 2003 that has absolutely no bleeding, and has been perfect since the day I got it. (knock on wood, applecare ran out 3 days ago) :o

[AppleKrate]

using the test images from this thread, I can't see any significant banding on either computer.

kubla, can you please say what color profile you are running in your system preferences/displays/colors?

I have been playing around in photoshop drawing gradients, and results are different depending on what color profile I run (as they are probably supposed to be) but WAY the WORST banding is under 'Color LCD' profile - the default on my MBPC2D

[nitynate]

I run (as they are probably supposed to be) but WAY the WORST banding is under 'Color LCD' profile - the default on my MBPC2D
As on my iMac.

What is the best banding profile on your MBP?

[AppleKrate]

Ok I have now established it's intermittent, or at least changeable... LCDTest now shows no (serious) banding in both gradient tests (quartz and non-quartz) PLUS the previously-posted Safari gradient test http://home.comcast.net/~scott.beatson/gradient_copy.jpg is now displaying ok in Safari. I don't know what has changed, but I have been playing around with the color profiles (and have extra ones installed with Photoshop)
nitynate I am using Adobe RGB (1998) but Apple RGB seems about the same

EDIT: you have to change your color profile then relaunch your apps (eg Safari or LCD tester)

[ProMod]

Everyone with 9C62 screens: How is the backlight bleeding on yours? Mine was really bad. Even, but bad. The whole dock was just about washed out.

[kubla]

AppleKrate:

I was using "Color LCD Calibrated" (my own file after running the color calibration).

You are right: some other color profiles produce far fewer artifacts. Good catch!
If I perform a color calibration on some of these other profiles, the artifacts return. I guess that makes sense: I probably just recalibrated the original profile to look like the LCD profile.


ProMod:

Backlight bleeding on my screen is very mild at the bottom edge: definitely not bad enough to send back my no-dead-pixel MBP.

[geehk]

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/23237

Hi, I just tried the LCD Test v1.1 app. It is much more basic than LCD Test v2 (http://macupdate.com/info.php/id/15119) in the gradients department. v2 has Red-Green-Blue & Cyan-Magenta-Yellow Gradients also.

In LCD Test v2:
> Select 'Color Gradients Verification'
> Press 'Show' - screen goes black then displays RGB Gradient
> Press Space To Toggle Through All Gradients
> Press Escape to go back to programs GUI.

Sounds like a few people have perfect new machines. If apple are offering to exchange the 'banded' MBP C2D's, either they are not informing their customer service reps correctly or they are aware of a banding problem. If this is the case then it can't be just firmware or they would refer you to a software download. If it was a low quality 6 bit LCD, they would have nothing to exchange it with - unless there are multiple models of their laptop LCD's .

However, viewing the test graphics posted here on my 15" C2D with glossy in Preview shows no banding at all that I can see.

I hate to ask this, but is there a correlation between Banding & Matt Screens? I only had the standard 'matt' 256mb Vid Ram models to available to test - never saw a glossy. I am assuming the gloss & matt LCD's are the same underneath the shine.

I run (as they are probably supposed to be) but WAY the WORST banding is under 'Color LCD' profile - the default on my MBPC2D

When I did my 15" & 17" MBP C2D testing I found that the banding worsened with a higher Gamma curve. PC Gamma 2.2 was very bad. Mac Gamma 1.8 was just plain bad.

Hope we can solve the riddle soon - at this rate, the 24" iMac is looking good too. Flying with it is going to be a problem though with the way regulations are now! :rolleyes:

[AppleKrate]

AppleKrate:

I was using "Color LCD Calibrated" (my own file after running the color calibration).

You are right: some other color profiles produce far fewer artifacts. Good catch!
If I perform a color calibration on some of these other profiles, the artifacts return. I guess that makes sense: I probably just recalibrated the original profile to look like the LCD profile.


ProMod:

Backlight bleeding on my screen is very mild at the bottom edge: definitely not bad enough to send back my no-dead-pixel MBP.

I've calibrated my machine also now... when I run the resulting 'Color LCD Calibrated' profile I get some banding in the gradient tests, but not so bad as before (ie with the default 'Color LCD' profile) If I run 'Generic RGB' or 'Apple RGB' the bad banding goes but the colour is a bit washed out. Maybe they will come up with a fix, or maybe the displays just aren't as high spec as maybe they should be at the Pro price :eek:

Anyway, like kubla I think I have decided that my machine is good enuf! No dead pixels, no noise, hasn't got too hot yet... OK, the backlighting is not quite perfect, but it's mostly only noticeable if I really look for it... I'm gonna stop running LCDTests and comparing my PORTABLE :cool: machine's display to my desktop Studio Display, and start using my long-awaited MBPC2D for what I got it for... :)

[geehk]

I've calibrated my machine also now... when I run the resulting 'Color LCD Calibrated' profile I get some banding in the gradient tests, but not so bad as before (ie with the default 'Color LCD' profile) If I run 'Generic RGB' or 'Apple RGB' the bad banding goes but the colour is a bit washed out. Maybe they will come up with a fix, or maybe the displays just aren't as high spec as maybe they should be at the Pro price :eek:

Anyway, like kubla I think I have decided that my machine is good enuf! No dead pixels, no noise, hasn't got too hot yet... OK, the backlighting is not quite perfect, but it's mostly only noticeable if I really look for it... I'm gonna stop running LCDTests and comparing my PORTABLE :cool: machine's display to my desktop Studio Display, and start using my long-awaited MBPC2D for what I got it for... :)

Hi Applekrate,

When you last saw colour banding was it with the Test JPGs or with the 'LCD Test' prog? I'm waiting a while longer to see if it's hardware or software before I make the move to buy. Keeping my fingers crossed for current owners - hope it has a happy ending.

One guy on the Apple forum said this, it all gets quite confusing if it is an OSX/ MBP C2D x1600 bug:

I don't know what I've done, as I have been spending a loooong time messing about with LCDTest, rawing gradients in Photoshop, and checking how changing my color profiles in system prefs/displays affects them, but suddenly your gradient test http://home.comcast.net/~scott.beatson/gradient_copy.jpg is displaying ok in Safari!

Another weird thing - when I open the image in Preview. it's brown!

Finally, the default MBP prfolile (Color LCD) gives the WORST banding in any app (except now Safari doesn't seem to care)

I am confused!

[AppleKrate]

Hi Applekrate,

When you last saw colour banding was it with the Test JPGs or with the 'LCD Test' prog? I'm waiting a while longer to see if it's hardware or software before I make the move to buy. Keeping my fingers crossed for current owners - hope it has a happy ending.

One guy on the Apple forum said this, it all gets quite confusing if it is an OSX/ MBP C2D x1600 bug:

The colour banding is similar on the test gradient jpegs and the LCD Tester - it is the color profiles that affects the amount of banding. the confusion before was that you have to relaunch the app (Preview, LCDTest or whatever) after changing the color profile - otherwise you can get different results from different apps if one was launched before and one after the profile change

To be honest,I haven't found a photographic image that is affected by the banding issue yet - it's just photoshop-type gradients, and they can be pretty smooth if you get the right profile. But they are still not as smoothly transitioned as on my Studio Display. But like I say, I haven't found a major real-world problem yet

My lingering concern is with the slight variation in backlighting across my screen - a slighly darker area running up the middle, and even slighter darker area on the left - again, I only notice it on solid colour backgrounds, and even then only in certain shades - eg a mid grey desktop is noticeably patchy, light grey is fine (and white is perfect, as are the R G & B screens in LCDTest.) But then again, the shifting viewing angle across the wide expanse of the 17" means that it's never completely even anyway. So again I think I can live with it - the rest of the machine is aok, more than - no dead pixels, no sticky keys, no noise - it's my first portable, so while I notice the screen differences, the potential of the machine is mind-blowing and I'm gonna get on with it :cool: But if you can stand waiting, there's probably something better round the corner (but with new problems, natch!)

Good luck :)

[geehk]

My lingering concern is with the slight variation in backlighting across my screen - a slighly darker area running up the middle, and even slighter darker area on the left - again, I only notice it on solid colour backgrounds, and even then only in certain shades - eg a mid grey desktop is noticeably patchy, light grey is fine (and white is perfect, as are the R G & B screens in LCDTest.)

Yes, even after I warmed up the units in the shop for the tests I still noticed backlighting issues on the 17". Whilst using the "LCD Test" gradients, I could also see a very Dark Wide Band either accross the screen or down the screen depending on which way the gradients were oriented. At first I thought this was backlighting but I think it was in some way linked with 'bit depth' or colour banding - I get the feeling the 17" I looked at was suffering pretty badly.

When I used the pure Red, Green or Blue test charts to look for pixels I could really see the uneven nature of the screen. On Red and Green I could see a obvious dark 'Vignette' (the brightness dropped off at the edge of the screen). I will stop moaning eventually, but thanks for all your observations!

[AppleKrate]

Yes, even after I warmed up the units in the shop for the tests I still noticed backlighting issues on the 17". Whilst using the "LCD Test" gradients, I could also see a very Dark Wide Band either accross the screen or down the screen depending on which way the gradients were oriented. At first I thought this was backlighting but I think it was in some way linked with 'bit depth' or colour banding - I get the feeling the 17" I looked at was suffering pretty badly.

When I used the pure Red, Green or Blue test charts to look for pixels I could really see the uneven nature of the screen. On Red and Green I could see a obvious dark 'Vignette' (the brightness dropped off at the edge of the screen). I will stop moaning eventually, but thanks for all your observations!

Well that makes me feel better, as my machine shows no dark areas on the R G B pixel test screens - the only one that reveals a problem is the mid gray. There are variations according to angle of view of course - as this is my first notebook I can't say if they are worse than they should be - its worse than my Studio Display as previously stated. But then I sit back from my Studio Display, plus of course it has way more space at the back for the technology. As you can tell I'm not an expert, but I'd be interested to know whether there are any current screens available that are this bright and this thin that are markedly better. If so, then obviously Apple should be using them! I'm going into an Applestore today to check out the display models. Maybe I'll go into aother store and look at Sonys or something. I need a Mac and I don't really want to send my machine back as I have been waiting for C2D for a long time, hence my early adoption! Plus as stated it's 'perfect' otherwise. There's a long thread at http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=720138&tstart=0 that seems to show that the dark areas problem is almost the norm. There are even people posting images of their machines as examples of perfect screens that obviously have the problem, so again it's debatable how much of a real world problem this is going to be. I do wish I had a perfect screen though

and while I'm wishin, how about a perfect body :p

PS I've just LCDTested my Studio Display as carefully (obsessively:D ) as my MBPC2D and guess what - the mid gray shows some variation! Not as much as my MBP, but still, I've NEVER noticed a problem in actual use in all the years I've been using it. (Still displays gradients way better tho)

[ProMod]

Nice to know I wasn't being too picky. Just returned from the Apple store, where I checked out the 17" MBPs they had on display. They did have some backlight bleeding, but probably about a quarter of what mine was doing. Mine was so much worse. Definitely glad I sent it back, and that there is hope in getting a solid replacement. BTW, all the screens in the store were 9C62, as was mine. Guess I got a dud.

[AppleKrate]

Nice to know I wasn't being too picky. Just returned from the Apple store, where I checked out the 17" MBPs they had on display. They did have some backlight bleeding, but probably about a quarter of what mine was doing. Mine was so much worse. Definitely glad I sent it back, and that there is hope in getting a solid replacement. BTW, all the screens in the store were 9C62, as was mine. Guess I got a dud.

Did you check them for the gradient issue also? I did and they were all the same... good luck with the backlight on your replacement - I'm still trying to decide what to do... :confused:

[geehk]

The color banding thread seems to have come to a standstill for now :( For those who haven't tried the test yet, the problem that I saw on some of the Macbook Pro C2D's 15" & 17" looks a little like this simulation when viewing a Color Gradient Test Chart:

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_band_example.jpg

If you want to test the gradient charts on your C2D MBP then here are the links: Granger Test (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg) or Gamut Test. (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

I saw a rumour that the LCD's possibly come from three suppliers and this may help explain the difference in 'banding' and 'grainyness' experienced by different MBP C2D owners.

the new C2D units use up to three different LCD panels internally depending on what goes out of the factory, for each of the sizes for the MBP series. I'm told that the manufactures vary from AUO Optronics, Chi Mei Optoelectronics, and Samsung.

'Apple Discussions' Source: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=758021&tstart=0

[Hodor]

As requested, here is the display info for my MDP:

Manufacturer: 00000610
Model: 00009C62

Mine is exactly the same..

My gradient tests are poor too, not what I'd expect from a "pro" machine.

The LCDTest beta does show the improvement between non-quartz and quartz, though (a massive one to my eye)..

[Chack]

Just opened up my new 2.33 MBP glossy screen. It looks amazing. For a second I thought maybe they forgot to give me the glossy because I couldn't see any reflections.

I ran LCD Test v2.0b and I have no dead pixels (YES!!). The color banding test looked the same as it did on my 400mhz G4 PowerBook, it was only slightly banded in the Green area, but not unacceptable at all, just there enough that I could notice it. The CMYK test looked fine. The pixel response test was amazing, because my PowerBook (probably thanks to it's whopping 8MB of video ram) looks horrible running that test.

I followed the instructions to see my display's model number (Prefs->Displays->Color->Open Profile) but the Manufacturer and Model sections are BLANK! That seems very unusual. Any other way to find out the model?

The only problem with this computer is a slight buzz coming from the top right of the keyboard. Is this normal? It's audible in a completely quiet room, but you can't hear it if there is any background noise. I'm reluctant to return the computer over something so minor, since it seems to be free of the other problems, plus it's a CTO (160GB HD) so it would be kind of a hassle.

On the other hand, it might drive me crazy...

[geehk]

I followed the instructions to see my display's model number (Prefs->Displays->Color->Open Profile) but the Manufacturer and Model sections are BLANK! That seems very unusual. Any other way to find out the model?

Hi Chack, Glad to hear that your MBP C2D Glossy is Colour Banding free! It's a pity the LCD info is blank though (Very Odd!). It would be good to find which manufacturers LCD performs best.

Do you know where yours was made? Is it a serial beginning with W8 or something else? I have heard that they are made in three places currently - not sure if that's true. It used to be Taiwan but so many are coming from China now too.

I've never had a buzz from an Apple Laptop - just fan noise only - If it's annoying you or you are concerned you should have it checked. I had a 15" MBP C2D for 5 days - no buzzing or anything, just a sub-standard quality display.

[Sesshi]

I have a fairly early model 17" Core Duo (not 2) X1600 256MB with the matte screen. It bands. My cheapest Dell Latitude (D520) with a GMA950 handles the test a lot better. I'll try the same test on the C2D which should be arriving any day now.

It doesn't surprise me - the MBP is very pretty but has more flaws than you can shake a stick at. The sole reason IMHO why someone can actually really like, let alone evagelise a compromised laptop like ths is if they're so shallow so as to place all importance on the looks of the thing. I don't give a flying monkeys about the ease of use of OS X, when the hardware itself has such everyday compromises compared to an equivalent top-flight Windows laptop that it destroys any (minor) niceties that the OS might have over the competition.

I've never actually managed to get the colours on the MBP's display to not look washed out (of course I have played with the calibration), but since I'm not a print professional or anything and I was using this as my main machine until a couple of months ago (so didn't want to screw anything up) I didn't bother to do anything about it. I'll now add it to the list of things I have to get fixed.

[Chack]

My serial number begins with W8, yes.

[Chack]

Oh, and yah, I did find out that it is the fan making this noise. I probably will just learn to live with it, as everything else about this machine is amazing! I'm loving 2-finger scrolling. Couldn't do it on my old PB G4 (made in 2001, so iScroll didn't work).

[hotboiled]

OW ow ow

i tried the LCDtest.app and i :eek: :mad:
lots of color banding and the red gradiant was pixelated and the end was 1 red spot :( :(

So i used the Adobe RGB(1998) Profile and ..... plinggggg
NO banding NO pixelating spots !!!! :) pffjew


edit

mm just compared the color with a 23 inch acd and it looks bad and dark.

sRGB profile looks better and NO banding NO spots

[cblackburn]

Both those test images look fine on my 15" Core Duo MBP (NOT Core 2 Duo). So it must be something they changed on the C2D's. Specs as below:-

ATI Radeon X1600:

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1600
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
VRAM (Total): 256 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x71c5
Revision ID: 0x0000
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.068
Displays:
Color LCD:
Display Type: LCD
Resolution: 1440 x 900
Depth: 32-bit Color
Built-In: Yes
Core Image: Supported
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Quartz Extreme: Supported
Display:
Status: No display connected

[hotboiled]

(17")

ATI Radeon X1600:

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1600
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
VRAM (Total): 256 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x71c5
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-xxxxxx-158
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.158
Displays:
Color LCD:
Display Type: LCD
Resolution: 1680 x 1050
Depth: 32-bit Color
Built-In: Yes
Core Image: Supported
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Quartz Extreme: Supported
Display:
Status: No display connected

[geehk]

So i used the Adobe RGB(1998) Profile and ..... plinggggg
NO banding NO pixelating spots !!!! :) pffjew

Hi hotboiled,

That's great news for you. Did you reboot LCD Test between changing the profiles? I wonder why the default profiles causes banding!? If you make a new profile and calibrate yourself do you get color banding?

One more thing, what is the LCD Manufacturer detail in (13) of the colour profile?

All the Best - geehk

[hotboiled]

Hi hotboiled,

That's great news for you. Did you reboot LCD Test between changing the profiles? I wonder why the default profiles causes banding!? If you make a new profile and calibrate yourself do you get color banding?

One more thing, what is the LCD Manufacturer detail in (13) of the colour profile?

All the Best - geehk

he geehk

yes i relaunched the LSCtest app.
now i use Srgb profile it's brighter ! but a little to blue

When i calibrate my own profile i get a little color banding and very ugly red spot in the corner

here are the screen details
manufacturer = 00000610
model = 00009C62
serial = 00000000
data = C05DFF00

[ProMod]

Just thought I would post an update for everybody. I just received my replacement, and it is much better. Barely any light leak at the bottom (same as seen in store), as close as it's ever gonna get to even backlighting, no dead pixels that I can see, and no color banding, on any profile.

The model of this screen is 9C61.

This replacement doesn't quite have the build quality of the original, but I think I can live with it. It has a few creaks and squeaks, and the keyboard is sorta coming unglued under the arrow keys. Do you think they can fix that stuff at the Apple store?

[prplmnkydshwshr]

Just thought I would post an update for everybody. I just received my replacement, and it is much better. Barely any light leak at the bottom (same as seen in store), as close as it's ever gonna get to even backlighting, no dead pixels that I can see, and no color banding, on any profile.

The model of this screen is 9C61.


What was the build week of the replacement machine (3 and 4th numbers of the serial number)?

[ProMod]

What was the build week of the replacement machine (3 and 4th numbers of the serial number)?

47. I forgot to look at that on my original machine.

[arnolf]

according to macbidouille, apple just stopped mbp c2d production due to a screen issue on the matte models. http://www.macbidouille.com/news/2006-12-06/#13702

[photomad]

Ive not long ago received my week 46 17" MBP. I was starting to wonder about waiting after reading all the problems on here with banding etc..

Anyway, cranked this up and it has no dead pixels and no banding whatsoever. I have run all the gradient pics from here and they are smooth as can be. every bit as good as the pro LCD monitors we have at work.

There is a small area of greater brightness at the bottom but not really too bad at all (and Im fussy!)

Seems to be a quality control issue here but there are some good ones around.:)

[iW00t]

according to macbidouille, apple just stopped mbp c2d production due to a screen issue on the matte models. http://www.macbidouille.com/news/2006-12-06/#13702

Does anyone know if the newer models exhibit this problem?

I thought I could get over it but the more I use this machine the more I realise I can't :o

[geehk]

Anyway, cranked this up and it has no dead pixels and no banding whatsoever.

Hi Photomad!

That's a great thing to hear. Did you try the LCD test or just the Gradient Charts to test for your colour banding? Seems that some default Profiles are good and some are bad. Have you tried doing your own LCD Calibration yet?

Would love to know the details of your machine - is the Serial W8647etc?(Shanghai) Also what is the manufacture code of your LCD?

So many questions but glad you are happy so far! Hope the rest or us can get a fully functional MBP C2D also....

[younker]

Hey, I bought MBP c2d version (M609CHA, 15inch) last week, and I found the one I bought has this problem, I created a gradient picture with gimpshop which display correctly and smoothly on my viewsonic 2025wm display, but on mbp it shows wrinkle when display the picture in full screen mode.

Also there is an obvious phenomenon when display the picture, when switch to full screen mode, you can see the phenomenon just like the wind blow the face of water.


I don't think this is an effect that apple provide to me, so it must be solved in the future days, by recall or upgrade the firmware.

[oldwatery]

Following my posts to another thread way back when, I decided that even though I had seen the grain thing at my local store I was going to stay with my original order of a 15" and see what happened. I figured this was just a random issue and hoped that I would not get a bad unit.
Blew it. :(

My 15" MBP C2D arrived last week and my heart sank as I discovered that the grain issue was even worse on this machine than the one in the store. The display also had some serious light bleed along the bottom and a complete unwillingness to display the correct colors even after calibration. My wife agreed with me and so I decided to return it.

Note......I am comparing all these to my 20" iMac G4, a last gen PB G4 15", a TiBook and a 1st gen 20" Apple display.

By then it appeared that this was not an isolated incident so I decided to upgrade to a 17" model which were receiving far better reports. My store did not have one in stock at the time so i could not see it first hand.

Yesterday the replacement arrived and I simply cannot believe it!

The banding issue is as described my many here. I can resolve it to a large extent by using a different color profile. But that is not what i paid for.

Far more annoying though is the light bleed and viewing angle.
I am average height, 5'9", and I cannot get the display angled enough for me to sit in an good ergonomic position. It just wont tilt enough.

If I move my head even an inch the whole screen color and brightness changes dramatically so I am forever changing the screen angle.

The light bleed from the bottom is unbelievable and as a graphic designer completely ruins the machine for me.
It looks like I have a neon strip running along the bottom of the screen.
But the worst thing is the way the color changes from top to bottom. I hope you can see this from the enclosed unretouched photos.
636826368363684

Amazingly my TiBook blows both other laptops into the weeds in all display regards.

I am at a complete loss as to what to do next. I will go to the local store today to see another 17" but I fear nothing will be different.
So I just might have to use an iMac or MacPro for my art while keeping my tiBook for general portable use.....providing I can fix the broken hinges etc!!!

This really sucks for a $3000 machine and it seems obvious that Apple must be aware of the problems. I've been using Macs since the IIc and this is simply the worst experience I have ever had with them. As a share holder I doubly mad:mad: :mad:

[photomad]

Hi Photomad!

That's a great thing to hear. Did you try the LCD test or just the Gradient Charts to test for your colour banding? Seems that some default Profiles are good and some are bad. Have you tried doing your own LCD Calibration yet?

Would love to know the details of your machine - is the Serial W8647etc?(Shanghai) Also what is the manufacture code of your LCD?

So many questions but glad you are happy so far! Hope the rest or us can get a fully functional MBP C2D also....

Hi, Yeah I tried the LCD test as well as the gradient charts. I have used the Spyder 2 to create a personal profile but even when I try all the other profiles it seems fine. I am on my desktop at the moment so I cant tell you the LCD code but it definitely is a W8646 machine.

Im just so pleased I got a "good" one... Will let you know when I crank it up next what the screen ID is.

[oldwatery]

Mine is going back.
Waiting for the return sticker....probably Tuesday.
I guess they will send a replacement when they receive mine. So that looks like about 10+ days for me in Hawaii.
Bloody hell....:(

It is going to engineering so that is good.
I hope they apreciate the problem.
I guess everything is subjective and it will be interesting to hear their response...if that ever happens.

Meanwhile I will plug on with my old TiBook which is having major hardware issues right now. Inconvenient ain't the word for it.

But...gotta look on the bright side and trust that Apple gets on it and fixes what seems now to be a fairly widespread problem.

Stay tuned;)

[eskalation.dk]

I got mine yesterday (17" mbp), first time i booted it i was like, damn.. light was flowing in very unevenly from the bottom, then i looked at the center of the screen and i saw a single black dead pixel.. i was :mad:

Then i thought well **** it i might as well see if its okay.. when i came home, booted it again, the backlighting in the bottom was nearly gone, and i then tried to touch the dead pixel, it was just dirt... D'oh!

I then tried the gamut thingy and the other test in here, no banding whatsoever... its perfect..! the only place i see a tiny amount of banding is when i use iTunes, the white circular gradient while browsing album art that isnt downloaded yet, but its such a tiny amount that i dont really care hehe.. this mbp is so awesome, its quiet, cool, and well.. its a mac =)

[EricChunky]

Hahahahahaahahahahaha Lmao>>>>>>


Where Are Those Dell Haters ?

[puddle27]

about color banding test..what exactly am i looking for? what is good what is bad?



The color banding thread seems to have come to a standstill for now :( For those who haven't tried the test yet, the problem that I saw on some of the Macbook Pro C2D's 15" & 17" looks a little like this simulation when viewing a Color Gradient Test Chart:

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_band_example.jpg

If you want to test the gradient charts on your C2D MBP then here are the links: Granger Test (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg) or Gamut Test. (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

I saw a rumour that the LCD's possibly come from three suppliers and this may help explain the difference in 'banding' and 'grainyness' experienced by different MBP C2D owners.



'Apple Discussions' Source: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=758021&tstart=0

[iW00t]

As a share holder I doubly mad:mad: :mad:

As a shareholder you should be pleased. They are buying LCD panels at 10 cents a piece and putting them into $3000 laptops.

On top of that Apple's readiness to accept that there is an issue is even worse than Dell's
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/579149.html

Hahahahahaahahahahaha Lmao>>>>>>


Where Are Those Dell Haters ?

Apple's response will probably be, "it is within specifications". At least Dell will do their best to replace the screen with a part you specify if they have the part in store, which they probably do, since they basically own the PC manufacturing market. Sure beats the hell out of the grand total of 3 display models used by Apple in their flagship laptops. The cheapest 3 no less, plagued with dead pixels and grainy colours.

[younker]

Are there any response from Apple?

I have tested with LCD test last night on my 15inch MBP,
it is not good on the gradient test, but an phenomenon is intresting
on the MBP, I have installed vista RTM on the MBP with bootcamp,
and I created a gradient picture with gimpshop, the picture shows
very bad on mac osx, also on vista (with xnview, photo gallary), but
very strange it shows very smooth with picasa.

So I wonder to know when Apple will response this problem? May they
give us an driver update or firmware update, I think maybe firmware
update is the better solution.

[geehk]

Yes, would be really good to get a resolution to this problem now - is it software, firmware, hardware or maybe a combination of all?

Some people report smooth colour gradients on their most recent purchases. Other people with the previously made batches report problems in some programs yet banded color gradients in others. Too many variables - too few answers from Apple. Seems the 'Pro' is not for better display characteristics, its for flashy keyboard, branded graphics card and aluminium finish - we need complete functioning systems

Did anyone find out for sure if the LCD's are 6bit rather than 8bit versions?

[haginile]

Strange... I see virtually no banding with the image http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg

But in LCDTest 1.1, I do see the banding. Anyone has any idea why this is the case?

[hotboiled]

same here

the colors are BAD ... very bad :mad:
if i edit images in aperture and then preview them on my acd :mad: i just vomit
this is NO PRO machine !!

bad bad apple

http://www.gezinsgids.nl/data/foto/16_maart_2006/rotteappel.jpg

[PDE]

same here

the colors are BAD ... very bad :mad:
if i edit images in aperture and then preview them on my acd :mad: i just vomit
this is NO PRO machine !!

bad bad apple

http://www.gezinsgids.nl/data/foto/16_maart_2006/rotteappel.jpg


yes....so sad. I have terrible banding on my week 46 0962 display too. I've never seen banding this bad on a recent LCD. Quite shocking. Can we be missing something here? even the cheapest LCD is usually capable of display these things, so either it's a manufacturing defect or a graphics card firmware issue.

[jkwuc89]

I ran the Granger Test and the Gamut Test on my MBP C2D 17" that has a matte display and my colors look find. There is no banding as far as I can tell.

[PDE]

Just checked out a 17" MBP in a local store and it has no banding at all despite having the same model display as mine. Could this be some kind of firmware corruption? I wish I understood more about this technology...

[Dharxan]

Just checked out a 17" MBP in a local store and it has no banding at all despite having the same model display as mine. Could this be some kind of firmware corruption? I wish I understood more about this technology...

My MBPRO 17/2.33/2G/160/256VRAM/SD-DL-GBR had banding so I called Apple & they sent another new one within 3 days, and this one is fine(week 47). The LCD model is also same (0610, 9C61).

[prplmnkydshwshr]

My MBPRO 17/2.33/2G/160/256VRAM/SD-DL-GBR had banding so I called Apple & they sent another new one within 3 days, and this one is fine(week 47). The LCD model is also same (0610, 9C61).

My replacement 17" MBP for 3 defective 15" MBP's in a row arrived. It's a week 47 as well...here's to hoping there's no problems with this unit. I'll report back my findings after I get home from work.

[iW00t]

same here

the colors are BAD ... very bad :mad:
if i edit images in aperture and then preview them on my acd :mad: i just vomit
this is NO PRO machine !!

bad bad apple

http://www.gezinsgids.nl/data/foto/16_maart_2006/rotteappel.jpg

Does this mean it is not a fault due to the display on the MBP but more of a software issue? :confused:

[prplmnkydshwshr]

My replacement 17" MBP for 3 defective 15" MBP's in a row arrived. It's a week 47 as well...here's to hoping there's no problems with this unit. I'll report back my findings after I get home from work.

With the two sample JPGs posted, I see very very faint banding, but nothing that seems horrible to me. My model LCD is 9C61 and it has even backlighting and no abnormal bright strip on the bottom of the LCD. While the gradients may not display perfectly smooth (with the default color profile), I am super thrilled to have no grainy/shimmering display as on the 3 previous 15" MBPs I went through.

[Lucky8]

if you're seeing obvious banding on this display with gradients that should be smooth on a millions of colours display, either the graphics card was set wrong (to less than millions of colours) or the panel isn't an 8-bit one, it's 6-bit. If that's the case, Apple is guilty of false advertising.

Anyone out there got a way of measuring how many colours one of these displays can really show?

yeah, I too am interested in finding out how to test these LCDs to make sure they really are 8-bit instead of 6-bit?

[Nightkrawler]

I have the 9C26 display, and NO color banding problems and im glad that there arent any stuck/broken pixels and it isn't grainy. :)
The brightness is really great, i took some pics of the screen for you.

Comparison between my old dell inspiron 8600 (notice that both are on maximum brightness and that the dell is a 15.4 inch notebook and it still is higher than the MBP 17':D):
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4996/dscn0097hf6.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0097hf6.jpg) http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2058/dscn0098ta3.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0098ta3.jpg) http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4123/dscn0099pk0.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0099pk0.jpg)
The backlight isnt uneven as it look on some of the photos, its just my crappy camera that is making it really worse :confused:
it looks even when you look at it from the front.
Maximum brightness from left:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9452/maxltp8.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maxltp8.jpg)
Minimum brightness from left:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7564/minldx2.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minldx2.jpg)
Minimum brightness from right:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/402/minimumrwi8.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minimumrwi8.jpg)


The only problem that i have with it is that it wakes up when the display is shut and i press on the right side on the lid.

[gr8tfly]

Strange... I see virtually no banding with the image http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg

But in LCDTest 1.1, I do see the banding. Anyone has any idea why this is the case?

Virtually no banding with this test image. Display is 610, 9C62, MBP build week 46.

[buckwheat]

I just made a call to Apple the other day on a whim, not really thinking it would ever go anywhere. You know "we'll call you back" sort of thing. OK

Well guess what? Those guys are all over the issues with this 17 C2D like stink on poop. I've had about 10 calls in the last hour, everyone from engineering to sales to 3rd tier tech to marketing. "What can I do - what will make you happy"?

No, Buckwheat ain't farting around on this - this is for real. I can't get over it. You think HP or Dell would ever do this? Right.

I also think that those guys look into the marketplace, and in particular forums such as this one. Interestingly, they don't pay much attention to the official "Apple Support" forums, as they're much too filtered, polished and generally withhold posts that would otherwise be beneficial to engineering.

I haven't been so impressed in years. I was going to wait for a while until the dust settled to start bitching, but here they are swaping it out for a pre-quality controlled unit. QC'd by the Cuppertino senior group. Claim they're dieing to get their hands on one of the "bad displays" to see what it's all about. Well they're gonna see pretty soon.

You know, I bet ole' Steve was reading these forums one day and decided to fire his brother-in-law in charge of Chinese production. Kicked his butt right off his new yacht into Monaco harbour. Now everythings moving up. My hat's off to you apple

[PDE]

I just made a call to Apple the other day on a whim, not really thinking it would ever go anywhere. You know "we'll call you back" sort of thing. OK

Well guess what? Those guys are all over the issues with this 17 C2D like stink on poop. I've had about 10 calls in the last hour, everyone from engineering to sales to 3rd tier tech to marketing. "What can I do - what will make you happy"?

No, Buckwheat ain't farting around on this - this is for real. I can't get over it. You think HP or Dell would ever do this? Right.

I also think that those guys look into the marketplace, and in particular forums such as this one. Interestingly, they don't pay much attention to the official "Apple Support" forums, as they're much too filtered, polished and generally withhold posts that would otherwise be beneficial to engineering.

I haven't been so impressed in years. I was going to wait for a while until the dust settled to start bitching, but here they are swaping it out for a pre-quality controlled unit. QC'd by the Cuppertino senior group. Claim they're dieing to get their hands on one of the "bad displays" to see what it's all about. Well they're gonna see pretty soon.

You know, I bet ole' Steve was reading these forums one day and decided to fire his brother-in-law in charge of Chinese production. Kicked his butt right off his new yacht into Monaco harbour. Now everythings moving up. My hat's off to you apple


My experience as well. Emailed Steve Jobs and within two days I had both the local apple store manager and executive relations calling me and asking what they can do to make me happy. They were simply amazing. However, I was complaining about my 15" display. Their final solution? To upgrade me to a 17". I thought it was fine, but it's not really: left half darker than right and when doing the banding test it looks absolutely terrible. Compared the macbook I'm typing this on, it's pretty poor. I decided to wait until Apple introduces new displays and then get it swapped since I don't think they're on top of this yet.

[geehk]

Well guess what? Those guys are all over the issues with this 17 C2D like stink on poop. I've had about 10 calls in the last hour, everyone from engineering to sales to 3rd tier tech to marketing. "What can I do - what will make you happy"?

Well Done Buckwheat!

I'm happy to see some pro-active moves from Apple on this one - better late than never. If they want to send me a new unit to "Test" for having the foresight and knowledge to start this thread :rolleyes: I may write a spectacular review stating my findings.

I'm still without laptop waiting for the right moment - I can't tell you how much I miss the Powerbook, I was so dumb to sell before I made sure the Macbook Pro replacement was good enough for my needs.

Let us know how you get on!

[e12a]

wait wait...so that sjobs@apple.com thing really works?

lol I might have to give it a try. Though I dont mind my screen, no grain would be nice.

What do you guys say in the email? Do you give them your # and addy?

and i hope those "sample" MBPs you guys sent in will have them switch screens for all of us.

[buckwheat]

lol I might have to give it a try. Though I dont mind my screen, no grain would be nice.

What do you guys say in the email? Do you give them your # and addy?
I'd think it's something one might use if you're suffering from multiple, or serious problems. Especially first run QC problems - the kind of stuff they really want to see. Sometimes they don't now what garbage China is really pumping out until they get one through such channels. I had a few additional issues as well as the known screen/hardware, so I just listed my problems in a 2 page Word doc and sent it.

I've got a separate MBG4 that's blown a sound card, but that's a send-in issue. I won't use the Steve email for that. I wouldn't want to abuse this idea and blow it for others. geehk were you the originator of this? - good job

What really surprised me is Apple has a full staff just itching to work this stuff out. I'm sitting here trying to think of ANY manufacturer, of ANYTHING that is this responsive and concerned. Televisions, cars, electronics, dishwashers, housing, public issues - I mean just nobody gives a hoot anymore. We've been conditioned to it. Especially public service, government and public utilities. Can you think of one?

It's a real breath of fresh air. I'm not sure how long it's going to last, but I'm glad I caught it when I did. So when they finish QC'ing the new unit, I'll get it shipped. Apparently the techs now had a good excuse to intercept a unit off the line. They will get it here in the US, scrutinize it as a team. I'll be sure to post updates

[puddle27]

wait wait...so that sjobs@apple.com thing really works?

lol I might have to give it a try. Though I dont mind my screen, no grain would be nice.

What do you guys say in the email? Do you give them your # and addy?

and i hope those "sample" MBPs you guys sent in will have them switch screens for all of us.

I just gave them my name and phone number and that was enough for them to know who i am and what i purchased and when and all that.

They were very helpful in trying to find me a good computer. however, the guy's solution was for me to go to the New York Soho store to find a good display model since he said what i am experiencing is (officially at least) an 'anomaly'". Of course the store units had the same problem so i am sending in for a refund. All models i went through and looked at in the store according to him are being sent in to engineers. So it looks like Apple is starting to realize (unless they are fooling us). Well done to those of us who complain and do not settle like most fanboys.

[PDE]

I just gave them my name and phone number and that was enough for them to know who i am and what i purchased and when and all that.

They were very helpful in trying to find me a good computer. however, the guy's solution was for me to go to the New York Soho store to find a good display model since he said what i am experiencing is (officially at least) an 'anomaly'". Of course the store units had the same problem so i am sending in for a refund. All models i went through and looked at in the store according to him are being sent in to engineers. So it looks like Apple is starting to realize (unless they are fooling us). Well done to those of us who complain and do not settle like most fanboys.


I wrote a letter detailing my experience and gave them my phone number and email. Got a call within a few days and within a week - after trying to replace the display on my 15" and getting another bad one (since there are no really good ones)- was offered an upgrade to a 17" MBP. However, as we all know, the 17" is not without faults either, especially uneven illumination and inability to show gradients smoothly. I'm not that happy, though the display is certainly much nicer than the 15" units I had. Compared to my mother's powerbook G4, however, it's inferior because of worse color rendition, worse viewing angles, uneven illumination and inability to display all colors in gradients.

Apple responded with amazing professionalism and did everything anybody could ever ask of a company. They bent over backward to get me a computer that I would be happy with and when I asked who I can write to express my positive experience, they replied "there's really no need to do that. We're here to serve you". Exceedingly impressed with them would be an understatement. This was the best customer service experience I've had - ever.

Unfortunately, it wasn't enough. It doesn't seem that Apple actually has good displays right now, nor does it seem that they are able to determine which models are good and which ones are bad. And when I tried to get a certain display for my 15" mbp - the 09C56 - they said it was impossible to find out what display it was until they attached it to the computer. They were willing to keep swapping until I got one that worked for me, but I didn't have the time so I went with the 17" instead. So: Apple seems to be trying to fix this problem for those who complain and that's a good sign, but they need to fix issue at the source: their LCD suppliers.

[azzurri000]

I downloaded the LCDtest, and used the gradient test... I found that I did see some lines where there were color transitions, but it was not as severe as what the OP is experiencing. Does this mean my model is also affected? I'm definitely experiencing a grainy screen...


PS In case anyone was wondering, I am using a 15" C2D MBP (9C 57)

[iW00t]

I downloaded the LCDtest, and used the gradient test... I found that I did see some lines where there were color transitions, but it was not as severe as what the OP is experiencing. Does this mean my model is also affected? I'm definitely experiencing a grainy screen...


PS In case anyone was wondering, I am using a 15" C2D MBP (9C 57)

Yep. Email Steve!

[azzurri000]

Yep. Email Steve!

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate the quick response :D

[stoise]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

[azzurri000]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

I got another replacement today... it's better than my 1st replacement, but not perfect... 9c60

[geehk]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

I spoke to my honest and helpful reseller today, they have been aware of the MBP C2D LCD problems and they said there were no real improvements with their most recent stock - I'll have to keep waiting and hoping Apple sort this issue out for good...

Apples own forum still shows no fixes or suggestions for the Color Banding problems either. Poor show! Too busy selling iPods for Christmas maybe :(

[tarjan]

Guys and Gals, with the current 15.4" and 17" lcd panels available today there is *NO* way to "fix" the problem you are seeing. The banding is simply due to the panels being 6bit+dither, and not true 8bit panels. They are only capable of producing 262k colors and the colors in between it "fudges" a bit causing the banding. Dithering reduces the obviousness of the banding, but it cannot completely remove it. Turn the computer down to thousands of colors and the reproduction MIGHT be a bit better depending on what generated the colors in the first place, but not that much as then you are leaving the dithering up to your computer. There are simply no portable versions of the screens we use that have the proper bit depth, though there are plenty of fixed versions that require more power and are much heavier.

Apple needs to get CM to produce a real 16 mil color screen with full 8bit and no dithering to fully solve the issue that you see. Of course my preference is that they would switch to the new "deep color" standard that is coming with blue ray and HD for 10bit colors. I give it a 5% chance on that... (preferrably in 1920x1200 or greater resolution in a 15.4 in screen with resolution independance! Oh and 20k:1 contrast ratios like my crt projector...)

10 bit - 1,073,741,824 colors.
8 bit - 16m
6 bit - 262144

6bit + dither is STILL 6 bit

[PDE]

Guys and Gals, with the current 15.4" and 17" lcd panels available today there is *NO* way to "fix" the problem you are seeing. The banding is simply due to the panels being 6bit+dither, and not true 8bit panels. They are only capable of producing 262k colors and the colors in between it "fudges" a bit causing the banding. Dithering reduces the obviousness of the banding, but it cannot completely remove it. Turn the computer down to thousands of colors and the reproduction MIGHT be a bit better depending on what generated the colors in the first place, but not that much as then you are leaving the dithering up to your computer. There are simply no portable versions of the screens we use that have the proper bit depth, though there are plenty of fixed versions that require more power and are much heavier.

Apple needs to get CM to produce a real 16 mil color screen with full 8bit and no dithering to fully solve the issue that you see. Of course my preference is that they would switch to the new "deep color" standard that is coming with blue ray and HD for 10bit colors. I give it a 5% chance on that... (preferrably in 1920x1200 or greater resolution in a 15.4 in screen with resolution independance! Oh and 20k:1 contrast ratios like my crt projector...)

10 bit - 1,073,741,824 colors.
8 bit - 16m
6 bit - 262144

6bit + dither is STILL 6 bit


My mother's powerbook G4 and all my previous powerbook G4s and G3s were capable of displaying gradients perfectly. Why would apple choose a display that can't do that now? I can't believe they would be so stupid as to deliberately choose a poor quality 6 bit display for a professional notebook? It would be too counter productive given the requirements of professionals....

[binjured]

You know, I almost wish I hadn't found threads like this one. My MBP C2D 17" just shipped today (got word last night) and I figured I would go online and look for instances of dead pixels because I have always considered a display with dead pixels to be DOA and always return them. I didn't expect to stumble upon something like this. I also can't believe that Apple is using such sub-standard LCDs in a machine that costs nearly $3000. At any rate, as a service member who is being deployed to the Middle East very soon (try not long after New Years) I don't really have the luxury of playing the trading game with Apple for two months, not to mention it will be my only computer for about a year and a half.

My MBP is a week 51. I will report back here as soon as it arrives with the results of the tests, it should be here the 28th. I'm crossing my fingers big time on this one.

Edit: And it's coming from the factory in Shanghai, if anybody cares to know that.

[iW00t]

My mother's powerbook G4 and all my previous powerbook G4s and G3s were capable of displaying gradients perfectly. Why would apple choose a display that can't do that now? I can't believe they would be so stupid as to deliberately choose a poor quality 6 bit display for a professional notebook? It would be too counter productive given the requirements of professionals....

The really big irony is Macs are supposedly targeted towards content creation professionals, the profession that of all people, actually needs to have a good display.

[binjured]

As promised, here are my MBP stats and findings:

Specs
- MBP 17" C2D
- Week 51 build
- Shipped from Shanghai
- LCD: 00009C61

Pixels
0 dead/stuck

Backlight
Even without any dark lines, spotting, etc. There is a small, bright band along the bottom of the screen (bleed) that is barely visible, especially on dark backgrounds.

Color Banding
There is some color banding with the default color profile, though not to the extent seen in the screenshot in the first post. When using the Adobe RGB (1998) profile the banding is no longer visible.

Grain
I don't see any visible grain to the screen, and I drug one of the gradients around in Preview which was suggested would make it "very obvious" and I saw nothing out of place. DVDs also appear fine.

Overall
Could the display be better? Yes. The fact that it's 6bit rather than 8bit alone makes it sub-par for many professionals. However, it is not terrible and for general use, including most "average" graphic design, I believe it is acceptable. Perhaps not for a $3000 machine, but generally acceptable at least. At least that's what I'm telling myself, and I'm sticking to it ;)

[spookje]

May I ask what you people mean with the banding? Do you mean the line which is visible in the gradient? I mean the 'dark' blue line and green line? I mean the solid colours between/in the gradients? (banding (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_band_example.jpg))

Or are do you people mean with banding the stratified of the gradient in the above mentioned image? If so, I have to say I don't see that effect only the above one.

[e12a]

grain is subjective, or just "normal". I've seen my friend's mom's dell precision 17" with the same grain than my 15. Hers is matte.

[oldwatery]

The fact that it's 6bit rather than 8bit alone makes it sub-par for many professionals. However, it is not terrible and for general use, including most "average" graphic design, I believe it is acceptable. Perhaps not for a $3000 machine, but generally acceptable at least. At least that's what I'm telling myself, and I'm sticking to it ;)

Who says it's 6 bit?
and if it is how can it possibly be OK for a $3000 machine:confused:

[tarjan]

Who says it's 6 bit?
and if it is how can it possibly be OK for a $3000 machine:confused:

Check the specs for the actual LCD panels. ALL of them in the 15.4 and 17" range used by apple are 6bit +2 dither. Basically means it is a 6 bit panel.

Now, why didn't you see them before? Easy, your screen was not as bright. The new screens are 2-3x as bright as the old ones. That would mean the colors were "closer" together before.

For the next part, keep in mind that each color being reproduced has values of 0 (black) to 255 (full), with the number indicating the brightness of color.

Say we are trying to produce red with a value of 200, right next to a red of 201 and a red of 199 to show a gradient in color change. In the old days, say 3 years ago ;), we would talk about contrast ratios being in the 150-200:1 range, at best. Today we might be in the 500-600:1 range. So a value of 0 is blacker (though not black as lcd cannot produce "black"), and a value of 255 is brighter (3+x) than it ever was. Problem is the gradients between 0 and 255 haven't changed.

This means a red at 199, 200 and 201 were MUCH closer together in overall color rendition back on the old powerbooks than they are on our monitors.


Of course, those of you who are really astute would notice I am using 8 bit numbers, which our monitors DON'T use directly. 8bit equals a color palate of 16 million colors. We actually have 6 bit monitors, which means there are ONLY 64 of each color type available. Technically 199 200 and 201 might (depending on the boundaries of colors) produce the exact same red, but they would influence the dots around them to dither the colors, trying to make them look more appropriate.

True 8 bit lcd panels are more fragile than 6 bit panels, take more power, and are, in general, thicker. Thats why we dont have them, yet, but it should be a drop in replacement one day. Of course at that point we will probably have moved on to OLEDs or brighthouse(sp?) versions which can produce colors (in theory) much much closer to black than a regular lcd panel. Black is the holy grail of lcd...

[SmokyD]

tarjan or anyone else:

Precisely where can I verify the technical details for the 00009C60/61/62 displays?

I have looked and looked but I have not been able to locate who makes the screens based on the model numbers, and Apple won't tell me (I've called them twice and emailed them once).

Nobody at Apple seems to know. How could that be possible?:confused:

I'd appreciate if anyone can provide a link that will verify the manufacturing and technical info for these MBP screens, especially regarding the 6-bit vs 8-bit issue.

I bought my MBP last week based on the 'support for millions of colors' statement on the Apple website. After getting the computer I was disappointed with both the color reproduction and contrast (in addition to other problems) which leads me to believe that the screens are indeed 6-bit.:(

[iW00t]

tarjan or anyone else:

Precisely where can I verify the technical details for the 00009C60/61/62 displays?

I have looked and looked but I have not been able to locate who makes the screens based on the model numbers, and Apple won't tell me (I've called them twice and emailed them once).

Nobody at Apple seems to know. How could that be possible?:confused:

I'd appreciate if anyone can provide a link that will verify the manufacturing and technical info for these MBP screens, especially regarding the 6-bit vs 8-bit issue.

I bought my MBP last week based on the 'support for millions of colors' statement on the Apple website. After getting the computer I was disappointed with both the color reproduction and contrast (in addition to other problems) which leads me to believe that the screens are indeed 6-bit.:(

You can install Windows XP using Bootcamp, and check out the link in my sig for more instructions on using the inferior OS to find out the make of the LCD panel in your system.

Even if you ultimately find out, so what?

They are "within specs", Apple is not going to do anything about it. That's probably why all these threads have died down recently. Everyone with affected machines just realised this and gave up.

[tarjan]

There are a number of screens in use. Follow iwoot's instructions and get the manufacturer and model. Then search for that. What you will find is that ALL of those screens are 6bit screens.

Very very good 6bit screens, but..

[SmokyD]

Thanks for the replies so far. Unfortunately I don't have WinXP available (and my machine is new, which I might return tomorrow) so I can't try the suggested method.

I have the 00009C61 panel, which I'm most interested in knowing about.

It will actually be useful to know more about this screen, for a couple of reasons:

1. The screen on my MBP is defective (moderate vignetting in all four corners/poor lighting on the right side/two dead pixels/backlight leaking/some banding). I will either get a new MBP or lose my portability and get the 24 inch iMac, which has a vastly superior screen. Not my first choice, but as a photographer I prefer a screen that can really render 16.7 million colors.

2. I thought the MBP screen could actually do that (render the 16.7 million rather than 16.2 million simulated with dithering). I find Apple's information about the MBP a little misleading as a result.

But before I get too worked up about it though, I'd like to verify just what the screen capability is. I believe that what I've read on this forum is correct, but official specs of some would be better.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

[iW00t]

I suppose the nature of the beast (ie: mobility, battery operated device) means that we can't have a display that displays millions of colours, have a reasonable cost, and still have good battery life, and thus Apple's engineers decided to put in this 262K colour LCD panels instead.

Vignetting in the corners is actually quite normal, what happens is the invertors driving the backlight needs a while to warm up, so it takes 30 minutes for the panel to reach their maximum brightness. Until then the sides and corners does appear a bit dim.

I'd expect better from Apple but at the end of the day there are probably a lot more crappy laptops out in the market that costs in the same ballpark as the MBP, so I guess we should count our blessings and not be overly demanding of Apple :o

[SmokyD]

I suppose the nature of the beast (ie: mobility, battery operated device) means that we can't have a display that displays millions of colours, have a reasonable cost, and still have good battery life, and thus Apple's engineers decided to put in this 262K colour LCD panels instead.

Vignetting in the corners is actually quite normal, what happens is the invertors driving the backlight needs a while to warm up, so it takes 30 minutes for the panel to reach their maximum brightness. Until then the sides and corners does appear a bit dim.

I'd expect better from Apple but at the end of the day there are probably a lot more crappy laptops out in the market that costs in the same ballpark as the MBP, so I guess we should count our blessings and not be overly demanding of Apple :o

Sorry iW00t gotta disagree with you here. Apple's top-end notebook should have a top-end screen. In any case, the specs on every other Apple screen are easily available on the apple.com site or from mactracker (all cinema displays and iMacs have published color rendition and contrast ratio/brightness specifications). The only specs Apple is hiding are for the notebook screens. A little odd ain't it?

Instead they say 'support for millions of colors'. A nice time to use 'Applespeak'.

Anyway, I chose the macbook pro over the imac because the screen was mis-advertised. Anyone else out there who cares about color fidelity might be making the same decision. It would be quite useful for anyone who cares about the quality of the screen they get to know exactly what they are getting.

So, does ANYONE know: are the MBP screens 6-bit or 8-bit?

[Mac'Mo]

weirdd

[geehk]

Great! There's an iPhone in 5 months time but still no solution to the MacBookPro display issues. Come on Apple, supply some excellent laptop displays like some of those stunning Vaios as an apology to your loyal customers. I was expecting more from the last Keynote presentation than a prototype PDA Phone with a new OS.

Most new buyer are still complaining of grain, color banding and uneven lighting on all models of Macbook Pro - it's been months of the same problems - totally unacceptable when the issues are so obvious. I am not going to buy until these issues are solved.

I think it is very obvious that Apple has changed it's focus and priorities to iPod and iPhone - the laptops are now the poor cousin - what a pity. Sure the processors are faster, but Apple don't design these do they! They do, however, have the choice to select top quality components and push the LCD manufacturers to supply the best possible displays for their discerning customers. I'd be happy to pay a few more dollars for a screen worth looking at.

[PDE]

Most new buyer are still complaining of grain, color banding and uneven lighting on all models of Macbook Pro - it's been months of the same problems - totally unacceptable when the issues are so obvious. I am not going to buy until these issues are solved.

I think it is very obvious that Apple has changed it's focus and priorities to iPod and iPhone - the laptops are now the poor cousin - what a pity. Sure the processors are faster, but Apple don't design these do they! They do, however, have the choice to select top quality components and push the LCD manufacturers to supply the best possible displays for their discerning customers. I'd be happy to pay a few more dollars for a screen worth looking at.


Yeah, they don't seem to care much about the quality of their laptops anymore. These displays are really a mess-up for apple. I walked into a random computer store in Sweden last week and took a close look at their PC laptops ranging from $500 to $2000. Even the cheapest models had better displays than the MBPs: just as bright but with even illumination and no grain and whites that were pure white. I wasn't able to test gradietns though. How embarrassing for Apple! And how disappointing for MBP buyers. I'm very happy with my 17" MBP except the display is unevenly illuminated with the right side being quite substantially brighter than the left. THe display is, however, a LOT nicer than the 15" ones and ACCEPTABLE for casual use. I'm hoping Apple will change vendor so I can have the display exchanged....

[oldwatery]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

No:mad:

I am on machine number 3 and it is the worst one yet.
Bad banding, uneven illumination, and terrible viewing angle.
I wrote to Mr Jobs and have since been in contact with a very helpful and embarassed Apple representative for over 4 weeks now.

Last time we spoke I was told to wait until after MW for some reason.:confused:

The 3rd machine was supposed to have gone through technical services for a full QC check but when I received it it was a new unopened box.
I called to complain and was told that they were not QC'ing any more machines before shipping as they did not have the infrastructure in place.
This is completely opposite to what the original Tech manager told me after the second unit was returned to engineering.

I know Apple are fully aware of the problem and I believe they have decided there is no point in cherry picking replacements as ALL the units are the same.

Just to add insult to injury my 17" MPB has a very bad Airport problem.....keeps loosing connection and requires a full reboot to connect. I have 4 other Macs and they all perform perfectly sitting right next to the "Dog".

Also there is a track-pad problem. After any keyboard action the track pad does not respond for 1-2 seconds. It is very annoying and really screws up your work flow if you use keyboard short cuts often.

I am forced to say that in over 20 years of heavy computer use and purchases this is the worst I have ever had.

I'm beginning to see why they are no longer called Apple Computer Inc.:(

[Leeds]

So basically, what I'm getting from this thread is:

Being a Photographer, and having a good eye... Don't buy a Macbook Pro?

I've been saving/waiting for months to get one now, and then I came upon this thread :\ Now I'm a bit disappointed lol

[tarjan]

Let me repeat myself from another thread.

There are *NO WAY* as in *NONE* or *ZIP* *NADA* *NOT POSSIBLE* to get better screens in similar or better resolution into the macbook pros. I know you guys want to believe otherwise, but it is the truth. Today's *BEST* screens are 6bit+2 in the 15.4in and 17" 1440 up to 1920 resolutions.

If you think you can find a better screen, go search and post up a link to the specs. Remember to backtrack availaiblity to when the MBP began, so if you find a unit that will be released this spring, IT CANNOT BE IN YOUR LAPTOP TODAY. So quit saying apple put substandard stuff in your system, they didn't. What you are seeing is the standard variation in production quality and whatever you think, apple is still right up there with everyone else.

I have 4 laptops and the mbp is BY FAR the best. No, it isnt 8 bit, but it looks good and is fairly well color balanced. If for some reason your screen has major issues, call up apple and let them know. If it is bad, they will fix it. If it isn't, you may be getting confused in what a laptop is and its basic limitations. You CANNOT compare lcd in a laptop to an lcd with a big power supply plugged into the wall.

If you are doing real color work, get the heck off your laptop's screen. Plunk down the money, get proper IN ROOM lighting with the right color temp and a good CRI (or turn out the lights) and get a CRT. If you dont care about proper colors, continue using an LCD, but understand, unless you have 48 THOUSAND dollar lcd monitor with brighthouse tech or the new one of a kind led powered sony lcd with a 90+% color repro that doesnt exist in the public yet, you are ON THE WRONG TYPE OF MONITOR.

Wait for DLP LED gen two and I bet we will finally have a really nice full color palate display in decent sizes.

Maybe the rumors are right, and apple will replace the CCFL backlights with LEDs in the next MBP. That would be awesome, but I doubt it.

[iW00t]

So basically, what I'm getting from this thread is:

Being a Photographer, and having a good eye... Don't buy a Macbook Pro?

I've been saving/waiting for months to get one now, and then I came upon this thread :\ Now I'm a bit disappointed lol

Wait a few more months for the typical Apple Top Secret "if I tell you I will have to kill you" OLED Macbook Pros.

[PDE]

So basically, what I'm getting from this thread is:

Being a Photographer, and having a good eye... Don't buy a Macbook Pro?

I've been saving/waiting for months to get one now, and then I came upon this thread :\ Now I'm a bit disappointed lol

Unfortunately the answer to that has to be no, don't buy a macbook pro right now if you need a good display. The MBPs just don't have them.

[iW00t]

Unfortunately the answer to that has to be no, don't buy a macbook pro right now if you need a good display. The MBPs just don't have them.

If you are not buying, be sure to drop Steve a letter saying why too.

Lest he might just figure that everyone is happy with this standard of crap and you can get ready to unswitch...

[PDE]

Let me repeat myself from another thread.

There are *NO WAY* as in *NONE* or *ZIP* *NADA* *NOT POSSIBLE* to get better screens in similar or better resolution into the macbook pros. I know you guys want to believe otherwise, but it is the truth. Today's *BEST* screens are 6bit+2 in the 15.4in and 17" 1440 up to 1920 resolutions.

If you think you can find a better screen, go search and post up a link to the specs. Remember to backtrack availaiblity to when the MBP began, so if you find a unit that will be released this spring, IT CANNOT BE IN YOUR LAPTOP TODAY. So quit saying apple put substandard stuff in your system, they didn't. What you are seeing is the standard variation in production quality and whatever you think, apple is still right up there with everyone else.

I have 4 laptops and the mbp is BY FAR the best. No, it isnt 8 bit, but it looks good and is fairly well color balanced. If for some reason your screen has major issues, call up apple and let them know. If it is bad, they will fix it. If it isn't, you may be getting confused in what a laptop is and its basic limitations. You CANNOT compare lcd in a laptop to an lcd with a big power supply plugged into the wall.

If you are doing real color work, get the heck off your laptop's screen. Plunk down the money, get proper IN ROOM lighting with the right color temp and a good CRI (or turn out the lights) and get a CRT. If you dont care about proper colors, continue using an LCD, but understand, unless you have 48 THOUSAND dollar lcd monitor with brighthouse tech or the new one of a kind led powered sony lcd with a 90+% color repro that doesnt exist in the public yet, you are ON THE WRONG TYPE OF MONITOR.

Wait for DLP LED gen two and I bet we will finally have a really nice full color palate display in decent sizes.

Maybe the rumors are right, and apple will replace the CCFL backlights with LEDs in the next MBP. That would be awesome, but I doubt it.

I'm sorry, but I've seen significantly better LCDs in Sony and Thinkpad laptops: even illumination, GREAT viewing angles, pure whites, no grain. Even if they too were 6 bit, the were a hell of a lot nicer than the MBPs. I didn't check them for color, but they're not going to be worse than the MBPs.

[Leeds]

If you are doing real color work, get the heck off your laptop's screen. Plunk down the money, get proper IN ROOM lighting with the right color temp and a good CRI (or turn out the lights) and get a CRT. If you dont care about proper colors, continue using an LCD, but understand, unless you have 48 THOUSAND dollar lcd monitor with brighthouse tech or the new one of a kind led powered sony lcd with a 90+% color repro that doesnt exist in the public yet, you are ON THE WRONG TYPE OF MONITOR.


Now as much as I'd love a MacPro with a couple of Lacie monitors, I just don't have that kind of cash. I DO, however, have the cash for a Macbook Pro, and the idea behind me getting a Laptop for editing, is that I can do when I'm over at my g/f's place. I'm not sure that she'd appreciate me bringing over a giant desktop just so that I can edit for half an hour whilst she's in the shower. I do have another monitor that I'd be able to hook up to, but I'm just concerned about getting a good display that's portable.

So how bad are they actually? Is it going to look like a dog's breakfast if I have to use it to show clients a slideshow or something?

[PDE]

So how bad are they actually? Is it going to look like a dog's breakfast if I have to use it to show clients a slideshow or something?

No, they won't be that bad if you're showing a slide show to some clients. The main problem there will be that the viewing angles are pretty poor so unless they're sitting straight in front of the display there will be some color/brightness distortion. For color critical work, you'll want a much better display.

[oldwatery]

Let me repeat myself from another thread.

There are *NO WAY* as in *NONE* or *ZIP* *NADA* *NOT POSSIBLE* to get better screens in similar or better resolution into the macbook pros. I know you guys want to believe otherwise, but it is the truth. Today's *BEST* screens are 6bit+2 in the 15.4in and 17" 1440 up to 1920 resolutions.

If you think you can find a better screen, go search and post up a link to the specs. Remember to backtrack availaiblity to when the MBP began, so if you find a unit that will be released this spring, IT CANNOT BE IN YOUR LAPTOP TODAY. So quit saying apple put substandard stuff in your system, they didn't. What you are seeing is the standard variation in production quality and whatever you think, apple is still right up there with everyone else.

I have 4 laptops and the mbp is BY FAR the best. No, it isnt 8 bit, but it looks good and is fairly well color balanced. If for some reason your screen has major issues, call up apple and let them know. If it is bad, they will fix it. If it isn't, you may be getting confused in what a laptop is and its basic limitations. You CANNOT compare lcd in a laptop to an lcd with a big power supply plugged into the wall.

If you are doing real color work, get the heck off your laptop's screen. Plunk down the money, get proper IN ROOM lighting with the right color temp and a good CRI (or turn out the lights) and get a CRT. If you dont care about proper colors, continue using an LCD, but understand, unless you have 48 THOUSAND dollar lcd monitor with brighthouse tech or the new one of a kind led powered sony lcd with a 90+% color repro that doesnt exist in the public yet, you are ON THE WRONG TYPE OF MONITOR.

Wait for DLP LED gen two and I bet we will finally have a really nice full color palate display in decent sizes.

Maybe the rumors are right, and apple will replace the CCFL backlights with LEDs in the next MBP. That would be awesome, but I doubt it.

Speak for yourself mate.
I've been a graphics pro for 20 years and have used Apple computers of every kind.
I have owned 5 laptops by them and this is the only time I have had cause to complain.
Don't be telling me I have to use a desktop to get good color and even lighting. And don't tell me to quit saying Apple has used bad parts....it's my opinion and that is what these forums are for.
And as for production variations....on a $3000 machine there should be none.
There are many people around the world experiencing these problems.
I am glad that you are not one of us or that you are content with the quality.
Because some of us find this objectionable does not mean we are stupid or don't know what we're doing!
And by the way can you quit the BOLD TYPE stuff it's rude and dictatorial.:p

[Leeds]

So it IS possible to get a good one then? Sounds like a couple of guys have seen no banding and such?

[iW00t]

I'm sorry, but I've seen significantly better LCDs in Sony and Thinkpad laptops: even illumination, GREAT viewing angles, pure whites, no grain. Even if they too were 6 bit, the were a hell of a lot nicer than the MBPs. I didn't check them for color, but they're not going to be worse than the MBPs.

That is true.

But Macbook Pros are cheaper computers than Sonys and Thinkpads. Different league altogether :o

[oldwatery]

tarjan
I must apologize for my rude and hostile response to your post.
I have had 3 of these MPB's now and I am no closer to a resolution than when I started.
The last thing I needed to hear was that I am in some way responsible because I chose the wrong computer for the job.
I agree that for the ultimate color fidelity a laptop is not the right choice but that is not the point with these complaints.
I have turned out thousands of designs with my Apple laptops and been delighted every time with the experience and results.
This machine simply is not up to the task.
Uneven lighting, grain and banding are issues I have never encountered with Apple before...at least not to this glaring extent.
That's my point and I believe the point of other complainers;)
Once again ..... sorry mate.

[geehk]

I've read a few post suggesting that you have to use top end repro equipment for colour work. Well there is some truth to that and I do use this stuff professionally. The laptop is a way of continuing to work while travelling and to use as a portfolio device, sometimes to present to clients.

Other laptops now have superior displays, so it is possible to have a laptop with a grain free, non-banding display with good white balance (they used to make those - they were called Powerbooks!) Since the screen got brighter and they are making more units things seem to have gone down the pan quality-wise.

There might be a few good MBP displays out there by hunting but it's pot luck what you get in your box. Surely Apple should be more consistent with their quality by matching the spec of all their displays and ramping up production respecting their quality comittment. I see no excuse for retrograde LCDs when other manufacturers demonstrate better results. With Apple you used to pay a little extra for quality - I'd like Apple to buy some LED X-Bright displays from Sony and charge a bit more for this MBP option before they get too immersed in the iPhone $$$

I'm happy for those that are satisfied with their purchase - personally I'm still not buying until the quality improves and I get 'support for millions of colours' as advertised or an explanation of what this actually means. An answer to the banding issue would be a start!

[oldwatery]

I've read a few post suggesting that you have to use top end repro equipment for colour work. Well there is some truth to that and I do use this stuff professionally. The laptop is a way of continuing to work while travelling and to use as a portfolio device, sometimes to present to clients.

Other laptops now have superior displays, so it is possible to have a laptop with a grain free, non-banding display with good white balance (they used to make those - they were called Powerbooks!) Since the screen got brighter and they are making more units things seem to have gone down the pan quality-wise.

There might be a few good MBP displays out there by hunting but it's pot luck what you get in your box. Surely Apple should be more consistent with their quality by matching the spec of all their displays and ramping up production respecting their quality comittment. I see no excuse for retrograde LCDs when other manufacturers demonstrate better results. With Apple you used to pay a little extra for quality - I'd like Apple to buy some LED X-Bright displays from Sony and charge a bit more for this MBP option before they get too immersed in the iPhone $$$

I'm happy for those that are satisfied with their purchase - personally I'm still not buying until the quality improves and I get 'support for millions of colours' as advertised or an explanation of what this actually means. An answer to the banding issue would be a start!

Well said!
I've got number 4 coming soon :(

[Outside75]

Just found this on Dpreview. Quite interesting:
I use the screens of both my MacBook Pro and 20" Cinema display together at the same time. I also use the Huey. I recently discovered a photo (while working on my laptop away from my Cinema display) that showed ugly banding in a blue shirt shot under artificial light.

Back on my Cinema display, none of this banding was visible. I have since tried using the Cinema display alone, calibrated it alone: no banding. Same for the MBP screen, calibrated it alone: banding is there.

I then created a gradient in Illustrator running from RGB (0,0,0) to (0,19,159), at about 80% there was a noticeable step on my MBP screen but not on my Cinema display. The best representation of it I could get was a screenshot that I then converted into grayscale (since the screenshot itself looked fine on the Cinema display), here it is: http://homepage.hispeed.ch/kukushka/gradient.png
After a couple of new calibration rounds, the gradient now looks fine on both screens and only a pure blue gradient, going to (0,0,~200), shows a step at about 95% on both screens (pure green or red gradients do not show a step, maybe blue is where the Huey sensor fails). The original photo still has bad banding on my MBP and no problems on my Cinema screen.

If I use the Apple-supplied screen profile, I see no banding in the photo on the MBP screen. If I look at the photo in a non-CM capable app (like Camino or Firefox) on the MBP there is no banding. Therefore I am pretty sure, the culprit is the screen calibration done by the Huey on my MBP.

Please check it here: CLICK ME (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1017&message=21674096)

[manu chao]

That quote from the dpreview thread above was me. After reading this thread, I would add that it is very well possible that the Apple-supplied profile is much more tuned to cover-up the 6-bit-ness than the profile the Huey is producing. Moreover, the fact that the problem only (or mainly) shows up in CM-ed applications (i.e. not Firefox) makes sense because non-CM apps simply hand over the RGB values to the graphic card, which can then spread them evenly over the 6 bit and apply dithering. The profile created by the Huey tries to convert the RGB values of the image (which might be defined in the sRGB space) into RGB values that when fed to the video card most closely match the colours defined in the sRGB space. Add to this that the Huey, which uses not the most advanced software and sensor technology as it is an absolute entry model, might not have been designed for 6 bit screens and only takes a handful of colour samples for each colour.

To see how bad the problem can get on a real photo:
http://homepage.hispeed.ch/kukushka/Aperturedefault.jpg
Remember, you will most likely only see the problem using a CM-ed app (Safari, Preview but not Firefox) and having calibrated your screen (and maybe more expensive calibration devices do not show the problem as succinctly as the Huey). Using the Apple-supplied screen profile will not show the problem for me.

To give you an idea how annoying this issue can be in real life, I can tell that I spent numerous hours to 'fix' that photo trying out several raw converters and discussing the issue online (with people who could not see the problem since they had better screens) until I realized that it was only my screen.

P.S.: Just checked in Safari, for one reason or another, problem is not visible there consistently, but it is in Preview, Photoshop, Aperture ...

[CmdrLaForge]

OK. If that's the case maybe others can test it on their new 15" or 17" C2D machines on various software - I don't have one now. I made some 17" size (1680x1050) test charts in Photoshop - they are JPEG's at 100% Quality to save bandwidth should be OK - look V smooth on this Gateway LCD.

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test_small.jpg
Full Size Version Here (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/granger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test_small.jpg
Full Size Version Here (http://home.freeuk.com/jackdodds/banding/gammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg)

Hi guys,

very interesting thread. Maybe a stupid question - if I look at those pictures on my LCD - how to judge now the quality of my LCD ? :confused:

[iW00t]

Hi guys,

very interesting thread. Maybe a stupid question - if I look at those pictures on my LCD - how to judge now the quality of my LCD ? :confused:

Chances are yours is also affected.

If you don't know how to look for it why bother to learn how to see it? It is like inducing additional misery into your life for no reason. Not like Apple acknowledges this problem even...

[PDE]

Chances are yours is also affected.

If you don't know how to look for it why bother to learn how to see it? It is like inducing additional misery into your life for no reason. Not like Apple acknowledges this problem even...


Yeah, chances are you're affected - sorry. PLEASE, don't look for it though! If you haven't noticed any problems, just be happy and enjoy your computer! Follow iwoot's advice!

[willie5]

Sorry for posting elsewhere on this subject earlier. I just found this thread. Reading though these posts I can tell you the following about my experiences in March - May 2007.

I'm a graphic designer with over 25 years experience in computer graphics. I have a Macbook Pro 17" 2.33 GHz bought in March 2007.

My 17" has the same gradient problems, horrible banding and limited color gamut, though no graininess mentioned in this thread.

The store I bought it from hasn't found a single 17" 2.33 GHz that doesn't have this problem!!! They do have one older model 17" 2.0 GHz that has a perfect screen, no banding, beautiful gradients which is really weird considering the earlier posts made here. The only new Pro 15" model I checked seemed to be excellent with no problems whatsoever. The store having not noticed this before asked about it from the local Apple representative, who claimed they have had no inquiries about this problem before. A few weeks later they received the next revision with newer LCD's, with no change.

Checking the manufacturing date it seems my machine was made sometime in January 2007. Still the screen's manufacturer info is the same as what has been stated here as problematic, manufacturer 00000610, model 00009C62.

In contrast, my good old bronze keyboard G3 (though not very good in color reliability) showes absolutely no problems with gradients.

Now if some idiot thinks this problem has no consequence and we should just accept it, try this:

Open the Photoshop color selector and in the default black to red color scale try to pick a color in the mid to upper range. How can I select color when all the color shades look the same, never mind reliable!

Apologies to anyone who feels offended by my rant and sorry for the bad language, but this is plain ************ from Apple and for a $3000 top of the line model at that! I'm really bloody mad having learned to expect more from Apple during the 20 years I've been a dedicated Apple customer, and cannot settle for less than a decent LCD screen for their supposedly best laptop. Anybody claiming anything else is a fool and doesn't qualify to comment on this subject. Even if 6 bit is the best thing available for laptops, someone please explain to me why my good old G3 screen doesn't have a problem? It wasn't even Apple's top of the line model back then. Suddenly all 17" models have quality problems? Come on!

So I'm not going to settle for anything other than waiting for Apple's new LED backlight models and hope for the best. I'm not taking any chances with the current models. i hope they'll revise the 17" first.

If I knew how to contact Steve Jobs I would! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[piwi]

Sorry for posting elsewhere on this subject earlier. I just found this thread. Reading though these posts I can tell you the following about my experiences in March - May 2007.

I'm a graphic designer with over 25 years experience in computer graphics. I have a Macbook Pro 17" 2.33 GHz bought in March 2007.

My 17" has the same gradient problems, horrible banding and limited color gamut, though no graininess mentioned in this thread.

The store I bought it from hasn't found a single 17" 2.33 GHz that doesn't have this problem!!! They do have one older model 17" 2.0 GHz that has a perfect screen, no banding, beautiful gradients which is really weird considering the earlier posts made here. The only new Pro 15" model I checked seemed to be excellent with no problems whatsoever. The store having not noticed this before asked about it from the local Apple representative, who claimed they have had no inquiries about this problem before. A few weeks later they received the next revision with newer LCD's, with no change.

Checking the manufacturing date it seems my machine was made sometime in January 2007. Still the screen's manufacturer info is the same as what has been stated here as problematic, manufacturer 00000610, model 00009C62.

In contrast, my good old bronze keyboard G3 (though not very good in color reliability) showes absolutely no problems with gradients.

Now if some idiot thinks this problem has no consequence and we should just accept it, try this:

Open the Photoshop color selector and in the default black to red color scale try to pick a color in the mid to upper range. How can I select color when all the color shades look the same, never mind reliable!

Apologies to anyone who feels offended by my rant and sorry for the bad language, but this is plain ************ from Apple and for a $3000 top of the line model at that! I'm really bloody mad having learned to expect more from Apple during the 20 years I've been a dedicated Apple customer, and cannot settle for less than a decent LCD screen for their supposedly best laptop. Anybody claiming anything else is a fool and doesn't qualify to comment on this subject. Even if 6 bit is the best thing available for laptops, someone please explain to me why my good old G3 screen doesn't have a problem? It wasn't even Apple's top of the line model back then. Suddenly all 17" models have quality problems? Come on!

So I'm not going to settle for anything other than waiting for Apple's new LED backlight models and hope for the best. I'm not taking any chances with the current models. i hope they'll revise the 17" first.

If I knew how to contact Steve Jobs I would! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Join the club!

I sent a letter to Steve Jobs about this very issue... It appears that MBP screens are acutally 6 bits capable of displaying only 262,000 colors and not millions as advertised :(

See www.colorblindmac.com for more info... We hope we will get decent screens on our MBP!!!

Mind you, I think the LED screens will be exactly the same because it seems that there is no LCD screen on the market to display the resolution Apple offers in 15 or 17". My guess would be that the gradients will be as bad on the new screens as they are now

[PDE]

I'm certainly no expert on LCDs but I've begun to think that the reason we see many of the problems we see is that the current crop of Apple displays are so bright. I looked at my Pismo G3 and the screen looks perfectly uniform. If I look very closely, however, I notice that there is a very very faint strip at the bottom - it's almost not visible but it's there. But if the display were 4X brighter like the macbook pros, I'm sure it would very visible and who knows if the rest of the display would be unevenly illuminated too. Grain is something very new to the 15" displays - it didn't used to exist on the older ones, but then they were half as bright. Most PC laptops don't show grain, but when tested they are also not as bright (check out notebookcheck.com for more measurements of actual display brightness and illumination distribution). Perhaps the 'grain' has to do with the brightness going through the anti-reflective coating somehow? Or a combination of the resolution, brightness and coating?

In any case, I'm wondering the LED displays will also show 'grain'....

[willie5]

I would switch screens with my brothers 12" G4 Powerbook any day. I don't see such a great difference in the screen brightness to warrant an excuse for banding and graininess. And I'm a graphic designer so I can guarantee you that I would notice a meaningful difference. And certainly the gamut problem is not due to screen brightness.

In fact I don't even care what the reason is. For $3000 I expect that there is no noticable problem and that's that! I would be ready to pay $200 more (if I had to) just for a proper quality LCD screen for all I care (not that I'm a big spender, I am price conscious), but that's how important it is in my job. But lugging an external screen around is NOT an option.

If the screens they use in the laptops don't live up to the marketing hype (32bit millions of colors) they should say so and not lie about it! Considering that this thread has been around for almost a year makes me even more frustrated! :mad:

I'd really like to find Steve's email address so I can send him a flaming rant about the subject! :mad:

[PDE]

I would switch screens with my brothers 12" G4 Powerbook any day. I don't see such a great difference in the screen brightness to warrant an excuse for banding and graininess. And I'm a graphic designer so I can guarantee you that I would notice a meaningful difference. And certainly the gamut problem is not due to screen brightness.

In fact I don't even care what the reason is. For $3000 I expect that there is no noticable problem and that's that! I would be ready to pay $200 more (if I had to) just for a proper quality LCD screen for all I care (not that I'm a big spender, I am price conscious), but that's how important it is in my job. But lugging an external screen around is NOT an option.

If the screens they use in the laptops don't live up to the marketing hype (32bit millions of colors) they should say so and not lie about it! Considering that this thread has been around for almost a year makes me even more frustrated! :mad:

I'd really like to find Steve's email address so I can send him a flaming rant about the subject! :mad:




I agree - I'd prefer a dimmer display that doesn't show the problems of the MBP. The truth is though that none of the LCDs in laptops thus far have ever been more than 6 bit - even gthe old ones that seemed better. I would love to have my old powerbook G4 1.67 low resolution display on a macbook pro.

Anyway, Steve Jobs' address is sjobs@apple.com. That's worked for me.

[willie5]

I'm wondering how Apple is going to sell us the real 32bit screens when they hopefully some day (year) materialize... 64bit color?

[thisonechance]

I still don't understand how only a few have the issue with gradients. My girlfriends and former roommates c2d's look perfect, I check both myself. It makes me think it's more a software issue or batch of panels.

[willie5]

I haven't seen a bad 15". All 17" Pros have the gradient problem that I've seen at our Apple store and that's bad enough.

[manu chao]

If anybody is still following this thread, have a look at this:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3657696&posted=1#post3657696

In short, Apple admits to using 6 bit displays in its 17" iMac, language on MacBook Pros is rather vague.