Centrino technology vs ? [Archive]

patrick0brien

Apr 29, 2003, 03:03 PM

-Riko19

Centrino uses the original wireless ethernet protcol IEEE 802.11b

The original AirPort was IEEE 802.11b as well.

However, the AirPort Extreme is now IEEE 802.11g, the next generation - though the two "b" and "g" are interoperable, but at "b"'s speeds.

"b" is referred to as WiFi
"g" is regerred to as Wireless G

Centrino is simply a higher-upstream (read: chip manufacturer, not computer maker) adoption of WiFi, that's all. Not all that new. Evolutionary, not revolutionary.

[EDIT] Umm. Yeah, what Navy said. Jynx, Navy :D

An arrogant Centrino user at a Starbucks here in the West loop saw me hotspotting my 12PB and said

"Oh, that's a Mac?"
Me: "Yes."
Centrino user: "You on the wireless?"
Me: "Yep!"
Centrino user: "Where's your net card?"
Me: "Don't have one." (don't get technical on me guys, I was talking at his level)
Centrino user: "Wow! My Centrino can do that! Boy, Apple's really been responding well to this new tech. How long have Macs been able to do this?"
Me: "About five years."
Centrino user: dumbstruck, beat, beat "But the Centrino's only been out for a few weeks."
Me: "I don't want to hurt you, but welcome to marketing."

Rajj

Apr 29, 2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-Riko19
An arrogant Centrino user at a Starbucks here in the West loop saw me hotspotting my 12PB and said

"Oh, that's a Mac?"
Me: "Yes."
Centrino user: "You on the wireless?"
Me: "Yep!"
Centrino user: "Where's your net card?"
Me: "Don't have one." (don't get technical on me guys, I was talking at his level)
Centrino user: "Wow! My Centrino can do that! Boy, Apple's really been responding well to this new tech. How long have Macs been able to do this?"
Me: "About five years."
Centrino user: dumbstruck, beat, beat "But the Centrino's only been out for a few weeks."
Me: "I don't want to hurt you, but welcome to marketing."

lolololololol;)

cb911

Apr 29, 2003, 07:14 PM

patrick0brien, that's a funny story you've got there! :D he he. :)

Freg3000

Apr 29, 2003, 08:13 PM

It would be funny if it wasn't such a perfect example of Apple's failure to market their wonderful technology intregration with their computers. :(

cb911

Apr 29, 2003, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
It would be funny if it wasn't such a perfect example of Apple's failure to market their wonderful technology intregration with their computers. :(

yeah, i guess. Apple has had Airport for ages, and still hardly any people know about it.:( but at least we have it, so all current Apple users are happy. :)

Sherman

Apr 29, 2003, 09:16 PM

It is kind of a shame how apple hasn't really done the marketing that Intel has, but Apple doesn't have that kind of money to throw around. Intel has basically started making their chips out of burnt $100 bills. They're about that expensive, and just as highly researched.

I'm very put-off that Intel is doing this as their idea. It creates a lot of tech problems for me when I have to explain to clue-repellent idiots that it's not all that new OR original.

tazo

Apr 29, 2003, 09:26 PM

i have almost the same story as mr. obrien. a friend, very windows zealot-ish, asked me why apple was on thew wifi bandwagon. I asked him if he had ever heard of 802.11b. he said yes. then I said, macs have had that for over 4 years. :D

janey

Apr 29, 2003, 11:16 PM

yeah most PC users are ignorant about airport.
here's my story: today the tech/comp teachers at our school were deciding whether or not they should get laptops with centrino and a school-wide wifi network (which i suggested...but not with pc's) or just a couple of desktops.
i happened to be showing off the new iPod (on applemusic.com) to some of my friends, the comp teachers looked at us drooling because the new iPod was so sexy.
the teachers: does that have centrino?
me: no...it has airport extreme which is better than centrino
the teachers: Oh that's nice that apple's finally doing wireless but i'm sure centrino is better. When is apple putting centrino in their notebooks and how fast is airport extreme? what is airport extreme anyway?
me: Uhh AirPort, aka Centrino/802.11b to you has been available for Macs since god knows when. Airport Extreme, or 802.11g, is much cooler and faster...
(and they're in shock as they ask me how i'm surfing the net when there's clearly no cables anywhere, as i was sitting on the lawn in front of one of my classes)
me (continued): Oh that's easy. one word. Bluetooth.
(comp teachers mutter to themselves, act like typical PC geeks when they're in front of a superior mac user and leave)
:p

acj

Apr 30, 2003, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007

Intel is pretty good at taking yesterday's news and shining it up all pretty acting like it's new.

True, but so is just about every manufacturer. There's a marketing term for this that I learned and forgot... It usually involves changing the name but keeping the old technology.

A couple examples:

Dodge's Hemi engine

Apples Dock (not a great example because it's an improvement and quite different than the taskbar)

Apples Airport

Nikons Vibration reduction and Sigmas Optical Stabilizer (following Canons Image Stabilization-I'm a camera buff)

Shoot, I know there are probably thousands of these, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head. I always find it annoying though

mac15

Apr 30, 2003, 03:18 AM

we've been infront of centrino for so long. We've had wireless support since 1999. And then Intel trys to advertise as if it there own. Were upto 54mb a sec now, comon Intel and M$ , your almost there :rolleyes:

000111one111000

Apr 30, 2003, 04:02 AM

Actually, the Dock is based off of the Dock in NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP which was before Win95. :) So, you could say the task bar was actually a rip off of the Dock. :)

I love explaining to PC people that Apple has done pretty much everything years before the PC people. They always act like you're lying and the PC people did it first. Especially with AirPort.

I don't know if any of you know about "Project Greenlight (http://www.projectgreenlight.com)" (a screenwriting/directing contest run by Ben Affleck and Matt Damon), but after going in there for quite a while, PC users just really are oblivious to all things Mac. Whenever someone asks "How do I make a PDF in Win9x/XP?" the answers are always long, either involving a 20 dollar app or the full Adobe Acrobat program. They're all pretty much dumbfounded when I say the Mac has that built in and can do it from any app. But, I've converted about 5 of those PC users over to the Mac so far, so it's getting better. :)

I really think Apple just needs to quit it with the cute commercials. Yeah, I like em, but the average PC user could care less. And that's who we need to be making commercials for. Most of the Mac faithful either know when something's coming out before it does, or catches wind of it once it's released. But the PC user has no idea. Apple needs to start making commercials SHOWING what it can do. Show a person USING an iPod and all the things you can do with it. Show a person ripping a CD and buying music online. Show a person using Mac OS X to create PDF's and other little things that the Mac does straight out of the box. Show the Mac PLAYING games. Start making commercials showing EVERYTHING a Mac can do (well, not everything, that'd be a long commercial), and then you'll start seeing marketshare rise.

And I'm just rambling, so I'll quit now. :)

enoch

MisterMe

Apr 30, 2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by übergeek
yeah most PC users are ignorant about airport.
here's my story: today the tech/comp teachers at our school were deciding whether or not they should get laptops with centrino and a school-wide wifi network (which i suggested...but not with pc's) or just a couple of desktops.
i happened to be showing off the new iPod (on applemusic.com) to some of my friends, the comp teachers looked at us drooling because the new iPod was so sexy.
the teachers: does that have centrino?
me: no...it has airport extreme which is better than centrino
the teachers: Oh that's nice that apple's finally doing wireless but i'm sure centrino is better. When is apple putting centrino in their notebooks and how fast is airport extreme? what is airport extreme anyway?
me: Uhh AirPort, aka Centrino/802.11b to you has been available for Macs since god knows when. Airport Extreme, or 802.11g, is much cooler and faster...
(and they're in shock as they ask me how i'm surfing the net when there's clearly no cables anywhere, as i was sitting on the lawn in front of one of my classes)
me (continued): Oh that's easy. one word. Bluetooth.
(comp teachers mutter to themselves, act like typical PC geeks when they're in front of a superior mac user and leave)
:p Apple, Intel, and Microsoft ads are not the only source of information technical. Virtually every newspaper today has a technology page. Many television stations have technology reporters. There is even a technology cable channel, TechTV. Think about this now--there is this large cadre of people who think that Centrino wireless is something new. Yet, you have Wi-Fi networks all over the place. Wireless routers have been popular for quite some time now. This is the the real problem. These Wintel users are not ignorant because Apple hasn't told them the truth. They are ignorant because they want to be ignorant.

yzedf

Apr 30, 2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by übergeek
yeah most PC users are ignorant about airport.
here's my story: today the tech/comp teachers at our school were deciding whether or not they should get laptops with centrino and a school-wide wifi network (which i suggested...but not with pc's) or just a couple of desktops.
i happened to be showing off the new iPod (on applemusic.com) to some of my friends, the comp teachers looked at us drooling because the new iPod was so sexy.
the teachers: does that have centrino?
me: no...it has airport extreme which is better than centrino
the teachers: Oh that's nice that apple's finally doing wireless but i'm sure centrino is better. When is apple putting centrino in their notebooks and how fast is airport extreme? what is airport extreme anyway?
me: Uhh AirPort, aka Centrino/802.11b to you has been available for Macs since god knows when. Airport Extreme, or 802.11g, is much cooler and faster...
(and they're in shock as they ask me how i'm surfing the net when there's clearly no cables anywhere, as i was sitting on the lawn in front of one of my classes)
me (continued): Oh that's easy. one word. Bluetooth.
(comp teachers mutter to themselves, act like typical PC geeks when they're in front of a superior mac user and leave)
:p
Oh Christ more Mac centric FUD... and what is cooler about 802.11g than b? I am confused by your "cooler and faster" statement.

http://www.intel.com/intelinside/weblinks/english/sitelets/yes/cmt/centrino_techspecs.htm

Centrino will support 802.11 a/b/g before the end of the year. Of the 3, g is by far the least stable spec. Most of the time, any b devices attached to a g network will slow the entire network down to b speeds. g has less range than a or b. a and b are better for multiple wireless hubs covering a vast physical area than g. a is as fast as g. a is not compatible with g. So, when you take your new whizbang PowerBook with Airport Extreme (what a lame name by the way) to a local park or some other thing that has 100 or so wireless stations providing 802.11a service, you will be out of luck.

Oh yes, when is Apple going to be offering tri-mode wireless cards (a b and g)? The reason I ask, is because they already available (for a while now) for those PC's we all hate so much, in the same miniPCI internal form as AE cards:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=04&oc=d600&m_11=XPPRO1&m_1=D614S&m_19=TM14&m_22=NOMSBE&c=us&l=en&kc=6W300

(not sure if the link will last long...)

Riko19

Apr 30, 2003, 09:43 AM

Well ther we go someone else just not happy of the new technology, it has to be better than 802.11b otherwise they wouldnt bring them out.

i have freinds who say its great they love this new wireless standard card.:)

macktheknife

Apr 30, 2003, 12:16 PM

As many posts have mentioned, what Intel is touting for Centrino in their ads (wireless networking) is not something totally new. Nonetheless, the entire architecture of the Pentium-M (the new Pentium mobile processors) is new, and many PC reviewers have heaped praise upon praise on the new chip's processing power. You can read two such reviews here:

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1800&p=15

http://www6.tomshardware.com/mobile/20030205/centrino-18.html

Whatever one may think of Intel's Centrino advertising campaign, the fact that the Pentium-M has received lots of praises in the industry for its new architecture, incredible processor speed, and longer battery life is something Apple and its customers need to pay attention to.

We can argue until our faces are blue that Apple was the first to come out with WiFi computing for the masses (or whatever). But at the end of the day, Apple still needs to compete against Dell, HP, IBM, etc. for the hearts and cash of potential customers. Should we thumb our noses at the latest offerings from Honda or Toyota just because Ford was the first company to mass produce the automobile?

Also, if there is a company peddling yesterday's technology, it's Apple. The G3 and G4 are hopelessly outmuscled by Intel and AMD. Yes, the "Megahertz Myth" exists, but the performance gap has widen too far and has become a chasm. To paraphrase one reviewer, Apple isn't cramming two processors into their top-of-the line desktops out of the goodness of its heart. Maybe the 970 will give Apple the firepower it needs to compete against Intel and AMD, but we'll have to see.

KingArthur

Apr 30, 2003, 12:48 PM

Actually, very often, things are available for the PC first, but it takes FOREVER for it to be adopted by them. Point in case, USB was out for PC first. But shortly after, Apple abandoned ADB, seiral, and parallel ports completely and moved the standard to USB. PCs still use PS/2 ports for mice and keyboards, LPT ports for printers, and sport serial ports just for the heck of it. They still haven't moved on. Sure, you could find USB a while before it was on the Macs, but it still hasn't been completely adopted by PC companies. Same thing with WiFi. PCs had it first, but Apple came along and made it a standard. Finally Intel is catching up and deciding it is time to make it a standard, too.

A funny note on the whole USB thing. Does anyone know who DEVELOPED USB? None other than Intel. lol. Developed by PC companies, yet still not adopted. Hence why we like macs. They have it all together!

iJon

Apr 30, 2003, 03:07 PM

well from the benchmarks ive seen, centrino is really great. i forgot what major pc magizine i get that i read it in, but the best battery life so far a has been 7 hours from the toshiba, where im comparable test the powerbooks get 3-4 hours. but like all things, i will have to play with it and talk to some people over a magizine, although i do believe their benchs would be accurate.

iJon

KingArthur

Apr 30, 2003, 03:26 PM

iJon. I think you are referring to the Pentium M laptops. There are a lot of P4s with centrino technology, but all that means is that they are WiFi compliant. True, the Pentium M is now the best when it comes to battery life. Lets just hope Apple can up the ante and squeeze the battery life out of the G4. Oh, and btw. I am helping my g/f get a new laptop, and she is getting one with a Pentium M in it. I have a P4 laptop currently, so I'll keep you posted as to how much better it really is. We will have same-clock-speed processors, so it will be a true Pentium M vs. P4

mrjamin

Apr 30, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by mac15
we've been infront of centrino for so long. We've had wireless support since 1999. And then Intel trys to advertise as if it there own. Were upto 54mb a sec now, comon Intel and M$ , your almost there :rolleyes:

I do hate to shatter your ideas here, but i have a friend who works in the Wireless dept of (coughs) intel. They've been sitting on the 11.g standard for ages because of the huge incompatibility problems. Basically, from what i understand, during the development of 11g, networking gear manufacturers had a basic idea of how 11g would work, so they put together a range of so called 11g wifi gear, which does work (80% of the time) with the completeled 11g standard. BUT 11g changed its workings towards the end of the completion of the project (i don't know too much about this kinda thing btw) so the 11g 'standard' that everyone thought would be, was not! So there's a load of 11g stuff out there that doesn't work with other 11g stuff. Apple, unfortunately, is one of the ones who jumped on the boat a little too early. From what my friend has said, intel were waiting to see the outcome of the 11g thing before they unveiled they new range of wifi gear. Basically, on the horizon are Centrino notebooks and pcmcia cards that comply with 11b, 11g AND the upcoming 11a standards 11a uses a different frequency to 11g/b so these new cards/machines will be dual band (11a runs on a different frequency). AND, get this, these newer centrino notebooks/cards come with GPRS and autoswitching Bluetooth- then eventually 3G. pretty impressive if you ask me. 11a is supposedly going to be replacing 11g, for many reasons, one of the factors is that Bluetooth interferes big time with 11b/11g stuff since they both run at the same frequency (2.4Ghz i believe).

i *think* i'm right on this, someone please interject and correct me if i'm not.

[edit] oops, i guess i kinda glossed over yzedf's post.

bennetsaysargh

Apr 30, 2003, 04:32 PM

Centrino will support 802.11 a/b/g before the end of the year. Of the 3, g is by far the least stable spec. Most of the time, any b devices attached to a g network will slow the entire network down to b speeds. g has less range than a or b. a and b are better for multiple wireless hubs covering a vast physical area than g. a is as fast as g. a is not compatible with g. So, when you take your new whizbang PowerBook with Airport Extreme (what a lame name by the way) to a local park or some other thing that has 100 or so wireless stations providing 802.11a service, you will be out of luck.

i have never heard of 802.11a
can you post some specs and stuff like that?

acj

Apr 30, 2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by 000111one111000
Actually, the Dock is based off of the Dock in NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP which was before Win95. :) So, you could say the task bar was actually a rip off of the Dock. :)

I stand very much corrected. Thank you.

Of course, you could argue that this is one technology that was mainstream on the PC side of things before Macs. Not many of these as pointed out so often in this thread.

patrick0brien

Apr 30, 2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
i have never heard of 802.11a
can you post some specs and stuff like that?

-bennetsaysargh

Well, I'll put my .02 in with some rather relative specs. But I find that this is what IT guys use so here goes:

802.11a is twice the frequency (~5.4ghz-ish) twice the range and twice the price of 802.11b, and it runs at 54kbps.

Persoanlly I prefer "a" but again, the equipment is so darned expensive. "b" got there first, so it's wider-accepted.

bennetsaysargh

Apr 30, 2003, 05:03 PM

hacurio1

Apr 30, 2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-bennetsaysargh

Well, I'll put my .02 in with some rather relative specs. But I find that this is what IT guys use so here goes:

802.11a is twice the frequency (~5.4ghz-ish) twice the range and twice the price of 802.11b, and it runs at 54kbps.

Persoanlly I prefer "a" but again, the equipment is so darned expensive. "b" got there first, so it's wider-accepted.

WOW!! 54kbps.......That is fast!!! LOL

Quote form
http://www.80211-planet.com/columns/article.php/961181

"802.11a vs. 802.11b
As you probably know, 802.11a and 802.11b each define a different physical layer. 802.11b radios transmit at 2.4 GHz and send data up to 11 Mbps using direct sequence spread spectrum modulation; whereas, 802.11a radios transmit at 5 GHz and send data up to 54 Mbps using OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing).

Of course the superior performance of 802.11a offers excellent support for bandwidth hungry applications, but the higher operating frequency equates to relatively shorter range. I've seen demonstrations of 802.11a radios delivering 54 Mbps with distances of about 60 feet, which is far less than the 300 feet or so that you'll have with 802.11b systems. As compared to 802.11b, you'll need a much larger number of 802.11a access points to cover a facility, especially large ones.

The different radio frequency and modulation types of 802.11a and 802.11b causes them to not interoperate. For example, an end user equipped with an 802.11a radio card will not be able to connect with an 802.11b access point. The 802.11 standard offers no provisions for interoperability between the different physical layers."

Thats the beauty of 'G.'
Great speeds and it's compatible with 802.11b. Yes, it does not enjoy the same range, but if i have the flexibility then i must say that the 802.11g standard is so far the best. 802.11b is mainstream, so don't even dream on seeing 'a' networks any time soon.

KingArthur

Apr 30, 2003, 05:46 PM

From what I have heard, there is only one advantage to 11a: range. It apparently has a much larger operational range, but at the same time, I have heard that there are a LOT of kinks to work out with it. A friend that worked at the IT department at the University of Dayton (where I use to attend) who has been on the front running of their wireless ventures explained to me one time the draw-backs that they are going to have by choosing a company that is going to supply them with 11a. I'll see if I can hook up with him again sometime and find out why it is such a bad idea.

janey

Apr 30, 2003, 06:07 PM

i think airport extreme/802.11g is cooler because it's faster and it has a sexy name. i also like it because pc users haven't heard of it.

MisterMe

Apr 30, 2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by KingArthur
Actually, very often, things are available for the PC first, but it takes FOREVER for it to be adopted by them. Point in case, USB was out for PC first. But shortly after, Apple abandoned ADB, seiral, and parallel ports completely and moved the standard to USB. PCs still use PS/2 ports for mice and keyboards, LPT ports for printers, and sport serial ports just for the heck of it. They still haven't moved on. Sure, you could find USB a while before it was on the Macs, but it still hasn't been completely adopted by PC companies. Same thing with WiFi. PCs had it first, but Apple came along and made it a standard. Finally Intel is catching up and deciding it is time to make it a standard, too.

A funny note on the whole USB thing. Does anyone know who DEVELOPED USB? None other than Intel. lol. Developed by PC companies, yet still not adopted. Hence why we like macs. They have it all together! Two corrections:

1. Macs never had parallel printer ports.

2. No so much a correction as a clarification: Intel bought USB from its original developer. For what it is worth, USB on Wintel had (has?) a reputation of being notoriously flaky. My experience with a WinXP laptop a couple of weekends ago lead me to believe that is still the case.

MisterMe

Apr 30, 2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by mrjamin
I do hate to shatter your ideas here, but i have a friend who works in the Wireless dept of (coughs) intel. They've been sitting on the 11.g standard for ages because of the huge incompatibility problems. Basically, from what i understand, during the development of 11g, networking gear manufacturers had a basic idea of how 11g would work, so they put together a range of so called 11g wifi gear, which does work (80% of the time) with the completeled 11g standard. BUT 11g changed its workings towards the end of the completion of the project (i don't know too much about this kinda thing btw) so the 11g 'standard' that everyone thought would be, was not! So there's a load of 11g stuff out there that doesn't work with other 11g stuff. Apple, unfortunately, is one of the ones who jumped on the boat a little too early. From what my friend has said, intel were waiting to see the outcome of the 11g thing before they unveiled they new range of wifi gear. Basically, on the horizon are Centrino notebooks and pcmcia cards that comply with 11b, 11g AND the upcoming 11a standards 11a uses a different frequency to 11g/b so these new cards/machines will be dual band (11a runs on a different frequency). AND, get this, these newer centrino notebooks/cards come with GPRS and autoswitching Bluetooth- then eventually 3G. pretty impressive if you ask me. 11a is supposedly going to be replacing 11g, for many reasons, one of the factors is that Bluetooth interferes big time with 11b/11g stuff since they both run at the same frequency (2.4Ghz i believe).

i *think* i'm right on this, someone please interject and correct me if i'm not.

[edit] oops, i guess i kinda glossed over yzedf's post. Hate to shatter your confidence, but you are wrong. The fact that Intel has prototype products that are not compliant with 802.11g says nothing about Apple's shipping products. It is true that Airport Extreme is based on a draft standard of 802.11g. There may very well be differences in the final standard. However, those differences will be minor, at worst. The installed base will be brought into compliance by a free firmware update.

You have to understand something very important. Standards organizations do not operate in a vacuum and not staffed by disinterested third parties. They are staffed by people who have a vested interest in the standard. As Airport Extreme is the largest implementation of the draft 802.11g standard, you can rest assured that the final standard will hew very closely to the current version of Airport Extreme.

patrick0brien

Apr 30, 2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
thanks, but 54 kbps?

-bennetsaysargh

Whoops! Good catch :D

<who was the idiot who put the "k" next to the "m"?>

mrjamin

Apr 30, 2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by KingArthur
From what I have heard, there is only one advantage to 11a: range. It apparently has a much larger operational range, but at the same time, I have heard that there are a LOT of kinks to work out with it. A friend that worked at the IT department at the University of Dayton (where I use to attend) who has been on the front running of their wireless ventures explained to me one time the draw-backs that they are going to have by choosing a company that is going to supply them with 11a. I'll see if I can hook up with him again sometime and find out why it is such a bad idea.

hmm, interesting - as far as i'm aware the range is actually less than 11b/g

bennetsaysargh

Apr 30, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-bennetsaysargh

Whoops! Good catch :D

<who was the idiot who put the "k" next to the "m"?>

i guess it was the person who made the first typewriter. or maybe the layout of the keys has evolved over time.:rolleyes: :confused:

only time will tell...

i think:D

mrjamin

Apr 30, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by MisterMe
Hate to shatter your confidence, but you are wrong....

thanks for correcting me - you didn't shatter by confidence as i wasnt confident to start with! Like i said, i don't know too much about the topic. I hope that some of what i said was useful

Wyrm

Apr 30, 2003, 07:41 PM

I guess Steve Jobs laments he (Apple) didn't see the popularity of CDRW technology, but wireless was one thing Apple did get very right! I burn a CDRW like once a month (ok ok, maybe it's low, but not a big thing for me).

I got my Pismo in 2000 with AirMac (called that here in Japan - "AirPort" is owned by someone else, like the government or something) - 3 years ago! Not only that, but the WiFi card is INSIDE the computer - not dangling out - waiting to be snapped off.
I use wireless EVERYDAY! (kinda hard not to) ;)

The phone company (NTT) even wondered how it worked with no cables when they hooked up DSL in 2001 (well, one did and his partner said something to the effect of "it's Wireless you id-jiit!").

So - with that said, I think Apple knows "WiFi" well, and made the right choice going with G - good range, good compatibility.

Re: USB
Didn't Steve comment on that during the unveiling of the iPod? That USB2 support is coming for Windows, but the software testing is taking more time... being a less stable, etc....

Re: Parallel port
Oooh - historical trivia... didn't the Mac use a Mac Printer port or something like that? Was it round? Much better connector than the parallel monster (IEEE1284 - well that's the new one, I don't know what the old old old one was - Centronics or something?).

:D

KingArthur

Apr 30, 2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by MisterMe
Two corrections:

1. Macs never had parallel printer ports.

2. No so much a correction as a clarification: Intel bought USB from its original developer. For what it is worth, USB on Wintel had (has?) a reputation of being notoriously flaky. My experience with a WinXP laptop a couple of weekends ago lead me to believe that is still the case.

Sorry, I forgot about that one. They just used the round serial ports for printers. *smacks self on forehead*

Well, when it comes to USB for Windows, you have to install a driver for EACH port. One installation of a device doesn't cover every port. I found this out with my optical mouse and USB printer. They weren't interchangable unless you wanted to reinstall the drivers. It pissed me off.

bennetsaysargh

Apr 30, 2003, 08:11 PM

that has to be the stupidest thing i have ever heard! not even windows is that dumb (or at least i thought):rolleyes:

destroyboredom

Apr 30, 2003, 09:04 PM

i just wanted to throw in my 02 cents here. Intel has apparently advertised very well, but is misconveying what centrino really is.

while its true it has built in wireless, centrino encompasses more than just that. Its processor is a brand new architecture, different from the p4 and the mobile m, the motherboard is also brand new, different chipset, ect... All this is what allows for the greater processing speeds and long battery life. Centrino isn't simply intel wireless.

I work in the "channel" for a major computer parts disti ( http://www.dandh.com ) here in the US and we were trained on centrino a month before the release.

bennetsaysargh

Apr 30, 2003, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by destroyboredom
i just wanted to throw in my 02 cents here. Intel has apparently advertised very well, but is misconveying what centrino really is.

while its true it has built in wireless, centrino encompasses more than just that. Its processor is a brand new architecture, different from the p4 and the mobile m, the motherboard is also brand new, different chipset, ect... All this is what allows for the greater processing speeds and long battery life. Centrino isn't simply intel wireless.

I work in the "channel" for a major computer parts disti ( http://www.dandh.com ) here in the US and we were trained on centrino a month before the release.

i had no idea that it was like that. thanks for stating this, or i woldn't have known that.

MisterMe

Apr 30, 2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by destroyboredom
i just wanted to throw in my 02 cents here. Intel has apparently advertised very well, but is misconveying what centrino really is.

while its true it has built in wireless, centrino encompasses more than just that. Its processor is a brand new architecture, different from the p4 and the mobile m, the motherboard is also brand new, different chipset, ect... All this is what allows for the greater processing speeds and long battery life. Centrino isn't simply intel wireless.

I work in the "channel" for a major computer parts disti ( http://www.dandh.com ) here in the US and we were trained on centrino a month before the release. What to play a game?

Setup: Let's take two Wintel laptop users. User Steve just bought the best Centrino laptop available. User Bill bought the best Wintel laptop available 6 months ago. Bill also bought and inserted a Wi-Fi PC card into his laptop. Steve and Bill wander around a Wi-Fi hotspot.

Toss-Up: What can Steve do that Bill cannot do?

KingArthur

Apr 30, 2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by MisterMe
What to play a game?

Setup: Let's take two Wintel laptop users. User Steve just bought the best Centrino laptop available. User Bill bought the best Wintel laptop available 6 months ago. Bill also bought and inserted a Wi-Fi PC card into his laptop. Steve and Bill wander around a Wi-Fi hotspot.

Toss-Up: What can Steve do that Bill cannot do?

Use his laptop for more than two hours on battery;)

patrick0brien

Apr 30, 2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by MisterMe
Toss-Up: What can Steve do that Bill cannot do?

-MisterMe

Fold her up and put it into his bag.

Bill would bust the WiFi card.

as for...

Originally posted by destroyboredom while its true it has built in wireless, centrino encompasses more than just that. Its processor is a brand new architecture, different from the p4 and the mobile m, the motherboard is also brand new, different chipset, ect... All this is what allows for the greater processing speeds and long battery life. Centrino isn't simply intel wireless. [/B]

-destroyboredom

You are absolutely correct. However, let's think like a <PC> sheep here. The most visible aspect to Centrino is the wireless capabilities. So Intel is going to tout it.

I can't see Intel beating the drum on the fact they created a Mhz myth: the Cenrino performs the same work as a Pentium 4M at twice the speed.

Sorry. I'm in the scotch again - you don't know how long it took to write/edit this post. :D

destroyboredom

Apr 30, 2003, 10:49 PM

pat-

i realize how the pc sheep think...i deal with them daily. it just seemed most people here had the wrong idea on what centrino was and i felt the need to clarify.

centrino is meant for the very mobile user..not the guy who buys a laptop and has it plugged in 90% of the time (like me)

KingArthur

Apr 30, 2003, 11:10 PM

One question about the whole Centrino thing, then. Why is it that Dell had P4 Centrino laptop (at least that is what they say). I wanted to make sure my g/f got a good laptop for her money, so I wanted her to get a Pentium M laptop. From my understanding of what you are saying, the Pentuim M is part of the Centrino package, yet there were P4s laptops that at first confused me b/c they had the Centrino logo. How is Intel and the sellers distinguishing for Centrino. Are they doing like they did with the whole calling the FSBus the System Bus? They need to pick one and stop trying to confuse people (although that is how they make their money).

acj

May 1, 2003, 11:20 AM

yzedf

May 1, 2003, 01:00 PM

QCassidy352

May 12, 2003, 09:23 PM

I thought I read in the tech section of the Boston Globe when these Centrino laptops were first coming out that they had lots of advantages (like wi-fi and great battery life) but that they were *slower* than P4 based laptops, and that computer makers were trying to gloss over this point.

But several people here have said how fast these processors are. Was the article I read just incorrect?

Huked on Fonick

Jun 6, 2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by mrjamin
get this, these newer centrino notebooks/cards come with GPRS and autoswitching Bluetooth- then eventually 3G. pretty impressive if you ask me. 11a is supposedly going to be replacing 11g, for many reasons, one of the factors is that Bluetooth interferes big time with 11b/11g stuff since they both run at the same frequency (2.4Ghz i believe).
yzedf's post.

First off Bluetooth does not interfear at all with Airport, for while they are on the same spectrum they are on different channels, same thing with cordless phones that 2.4ghz but those can run on the same channels.

As for a GPRS enable centrino i cant wait to see it but i dought i will, and it would rain crazy amounts of power(plus its sooo soooo).....and 3G thats along ways off here in america, its JUST starting to hit eurpose as far as i know ATT Wirelessis the only company with 3g plans in place.....and there not scheduled to be done till like 2006 or 7 or something...

Chimaera

Jun 6, 2003, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by KingArthur
Sorry, I forgot about that one. They just used the round serial ports for printers. *smacks self on forehead*

Well, when it comes to USB for Windows, you have to install a driver for EACH port. One installation of a device doesn't cover every port. I found this out with my optical mouse and USB printer. They weren't interchangable unless you wanted to reinstall the drivers. It pissed me off.

Sounds like you've got a buggered windows installation there as you absolutely do not have to do that under *any* flavor of windows that has USB support (although I do agree that USB under 9x was pretty flaky but those days are long gone thankfully).

PC has had wireless networking for years too, its just not been a major feature of PC systems - incidentally a lot of laptops have mini-PCI slots that can have wi-fi NICs installed internally, just like the powerbooks - you don't *have* to use a PCMCIA formfactor one.

ktlx

Jun 6, 2003, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by KingArthur
One question about the whole Centrino thing, then. Why is it that Dell had P4 Centrino laptop (at least that is what they say). I wanted to make sure my g/f got a good laptop for her money, so I wanted her to get a Pentium M laptop. From my understanding of what you are saying, the Pentuim M is part of the Centrino package, yet there were P4s laptops that at first confused me b/c they had the Centrino logo.

There cannot be Pentium 4-based notebooks with the Centrino label.

In order to use the Centrino label, a notebook manufacturer must use the Pentium M processor, the Intel 855 chipset and the Intel PRO/Wireless 2100 network chip. The wireless connection is only part of the puzzle.

Because the Centrino chip only supports 802.11b at this time, several manufacturers are releasing Pentium M based laptops with another wireless networking chip to get either 802.11a and/or 802.11g support. These notebooks cannot use the Centrino label even if they use the Pentium M and Intel 855 chipset because they don't use the complete package. They have to call themselves Pentium M notebooks.

From things I have read, Intel did not choose either of the faster wireless networking options because Centrino notebooks are targetted toward business professionals. Enterprise CIOs are notoriously conservative and are hesitant to adopt incomplete and/or incompatible standards like 802.11g and 802.11a. There was no significant upside to Intel taking a risk and supporting 802.11g before the standard was finished.

JSRockit

Jun 6, 2003, 08:39 AM

I have the Dell D600 that has a Pentium-M (1.4Ghz, fast) and the new chipset...but it is not a centrino...why? cause I wanted 802.11B/G (for AE, which I have with my 12" pBook) instead of Intels 802.11B. There is no such thing as a Pentium-4m that is also a Centrino...but there are Pentium-4m based laptops that have WiFi of course.

Wifi has been available for PCs for a long time as well...but just not built in to every new Pentium-M based laptop like Intel has done. The good thing about Centrino notebooks/ Intel is that they are making WiFi mainstream...and that will benefit Mac users as well once hotspots are all over the place. Unfortunately, Apple made a commercial in 1999 that showed the Airport base as a UFO...when they could have been doing what Intel is doing now...showing "real world" uses.

mactastic

Jun 6, 2003, 09:26 AM

So here's a question. Does anyone think apple or any other 3rd party vendor will develop a card to replace apples original airport cards to bring them up to "g"? Or maybe even build bluetooth onto it as well? Would they be waiting for the final draft of the "g" standards to do something like this? I'm asking because I bought a TiBook in November, 2 months before the AE came out, and I already have an Extreme base station. Is it a matter of not being able to run those speeds through the existing card bus, or just a matter of redesigning the card?

jouster

Jun 6, 2003, 12:52 PM

Sure, there's a lot of dumb WIn users out there, and the stories realted in here are amusing.

But let's remember when we read things like "Macs have had 802.11b for five years and Centrino has only been out for, like, a week" that PC laptops have not just recently become wirelessly networkable. The 'new' part of it is the integration, that's all.

Apple may have beaten them to market with this sort of thing, but not by as much as some seem to think.

Edit: oops, I just noticed that JSRockit said pretty much the same thing.

JSRockit

Jun 6, 2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by mactastic
So here's a question. Does anyone think apple or any other 3rd party vendor will develop a card to replace apples original airport cards to bring them up to "g"? Or maybe even build bluetooth onto it as well? Would they be waiting for the final draft of the "g" standards to do something like this? I'm asking because I bought a TiBook in November, 2 months before the AE came out, and I already have an Extreme base station. Is it a matter of not being able to run those speeds through the existing card bus, or just a matter of redesigning the card?

Does anyone know if this cam happen?

Raiwong

Jun 6, 2003, 10:47 PM

My friend has a AE 12" PB and clearly the wireless range sucks, my ibook can get full signal in where he can't even see the station.

The centrino can probably match or kick the ibook's ass in battery life if not speed, the powerbooks are going downhill, the only thing to left to brag about is...what the 17" screen..

Well apples got looks, and thats whats important to alot of us, if we care for speed and true power we'd be using a PC for ages.

JSRockit

Jun 7, 2003, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by Raiwong
My friend has a AE 12" PB and clearly the wireless range sucks, my ibook can get full signal in where he can't even see the station.

The centrino can probably match or kick the ibook's ass in battery life if not speed, the powerbooks are going downhill, the only thing to left to brag about is...what the 17" screen..

Well apples got looks, and thats whats important to alot of us, if we care for speed and true power we'd be using a PC for ages.

The iBook gets the best reception of any Apple notebook.

The Pentium-M processors (1.3Ghz and up) are definitely more powerful than the G3 900Mhz...but the iBook will still beat some Centrinos in battery life.

iJon

Jun 7, 2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by JSRockit
The iBook gets the best reception of any Apple notebook.

The Pentium-M processors (1.3Ghz and up) are definitely more powerful than the G3 900Mhz...but the iBook will still beat some Centrinos in battery life.
i dont think so, possibly. every review ive seen of the centrinos have battery life much better than the ibook. even the worse rated laptops had the same battery life as the ibook. and the best, which i saw was the toshiba laptop, had 7 hours of battery life.

iJon

JSRockit

Jun 7, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by iJon
i dont think so, possibly. every review ive seen of the centrinos have battery life much better than the ibook. even the worse rated laptops had the same battery life as the ibook. and the best, which i saw was the toshiba laptop, had 7 hours of battery life.

iJon

My Dell D600 gets around 3.5hrs (yes, i know this from actual use, not a review)...and there are others that get around the same...some peoples iBooks get 4-5hrs. It really comes down to how you use it though....but, that equals worse in my opinion. The IBM T40 gets 7 hours as well. The Toshibas in question are huge...saw them yesterday...they have bigger batteries as well...I believe.

iJon

Jun 7, 2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by JSRockit
My Dell D600 gets around 3.5hrs (yes, i know this from actual use, not a review)...and there are others that get around the same...some peoples iBooks get 4-5hrs. It really comes down to how you use it though....but, that equals worse in my opinion. The IBM T40 gets 7 hours as well. The Toshibas in question are huge...saw them yesterday...they have bigger batteries as well...I believe.
ok, but your right, this is just what people have said, i would have to use each one before i make a serious comment. i was just basing my reviews on my pc world, who doing same tests between the pc's and mac's the centrinos got much more, with the dell being the worse (same battery life you stated) and toshiba being the best and everyone else in the middle.

iJon

JSRockit

Jun 7, 2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by iJon
ok, but your right, this is just what people have said, i would have to use each one before i make a serious comment. i was just basing my reviews on my pc world, who doing same tests between the pc's and mac's the centrinos got much more, with the dell being the worse (same battery life you stated) and toshiba being the best and everyone else in the middle.

iJon Yep...the Dell is the worst...but still good...my 12" pBook gets 2.5-3hrs under regular use... what did PC world say the iBook gets...or the 12" pBook?

iJon

Jun 7, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by JSRockit
Yep...the Dell is the worst...but still good...my 12" pBook gets 2.5-3hrs under regular use... what did PC world say the iBook gets...or the 12" pBook?
pc world gave them both great reviews. they said 2-3.5 hours. and before the pc's were barely making that much, most of the time barely breaking the 2 hour barrier. but now with centrino you got fast computers and great battery life, what i dont know is if apple is worried at all.

iJon

JSRockit

Jun 7, 2003, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by iJon
pc world gave them both great reviews. they said 2-3.5 hours. and before the pc's were barely making that much, most of the time barely breaking the 2 hour barrier. but now with centrino you got fast computers and great battery life, what i dont know is if apple is worried at all.

iJon

I hope they are worried.

iJon

Jun 7, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by JSRockit
I hope they are worried.
i agree as well. before it was pcs had the fast processors and low battery life. apple has slow computers and high battery life. now the pc world has the best of both worlds. and pc companies are learning how to make pcs smaller and more compact although they are still far behind.

iJon

JSRockit

Jun 7, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by iJon
i agree as well. before it was pcs had the fast processors and low battery life. apple has slow computers and high battery life. now the pc world has the best of both worlds. and pc companies are learning how to make pcs smaller and more compact although they are still far behind.

iJon

Now if PC companies can figure out how to make their stuff as beautiful as Apples...and that real GPUs should be in every laptop (like Apple does)...then Apple might have a real problem.

Raiwong

Jun 7, 2003, 11:45 PM

That will take a while, considering they will never remove the Windows XP sticker

JSRockit

Jun 8, 2003, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Raiwong
That will take a while, considering they will never remove the Windows XP sticker

I heard Apple was going to slap a "IBM 970 inbedded" sticker on their new laptops after the switch.

Wardofsky

Jun 8, 2003, 08:22 AM

Apple is ahead of centrino, up to g while everyone else is discovering b.

Centrino advertising is marketing galore, luring in blank new users into thinking that you get wireless every where.

But Apple's advertising is rediculously low in Australia, for those who know there are not many ads showing their wireless technology.

Apple is jumping into the pool first, but it's not making a splash.

iJon

Jun 8, 2003, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Wardofsky
Apple is ahead of centrino, up to g while everyone else is discovering b.

Centrino advertising is marketing galore, luring in blank new users into thinking that you get wireless every where.

But Apple's advertising is rediculously low in Australia, for those who know there are not many ads showing their wireless technology.

Apple is jumping into the pool first, but it's not making a splash.
well i would gladly take a faster and better battery life while sacrificing 802.11g. I have been playing with with my airport extreme for a while and whenever I transfer files I'm never 50 feet from the Base Station so I never get g speeds. and considering g isnt finalized and the base station does have some annoying bugs ( although apple is doing a good job, 4 firmware updates so far). so far b and g havent been much different, and better battery and faster processors definently wiegh it out.

iJon

JSRockit

Jun 8, 2003, 06:00 PM

My Pentium-M (1.4Ghz) based Dell D600 has 802.11G...so just because Intel doesn't offer it as part of the Centrino package yet...doesn't mean PC manufactuers don't offer it.

Wardofsky

Jun 8, 2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by iJon
well i would gladly take a faster and better battery life while sacrificing 802.11g. I have been playing with with my airport extreme for a while and whenever I transfer files I'm never 50 feet from the Base Station so I never get g speeds. and considering g isnt finalized and the base station does have some annoying bugs ( although apple is doing a good job, 4 firmware updates so far). so far b and g havent been much different, and better battery and faster processors definently wiegh it out.

iJon

I believe that ay further away than 50 feet, it will drop down to b speeds.