Which one of these PCs would you buy?

[Smileyguy]

Hi everyone,

I started a thread here a couple of months ago asking for advice about secondhand iBooks and PowerBooks. I'm now close to opting for a PC laptop instead. It's down to a number of reasons: There is a very reputable secondhand PC laptop store near me that will provide good support and a warranty (unlike buying secondhand on eBay or privately), I can get a machine with very good specs very cheaply, and I'm becoming increasingly comfortable and beginning to really like Linux.

I'm going to be needing this laptop mainly for word processing and the internet, but also for some desktop publishing (Quark, InDesign, Scribus type stuff..) and basic photo editing music and home photo library stuff. The following are some of the different refurb machines they are currently selling:

IBM ThinkPad T40
Pentium 4 Mobile Processor 1.5Ghz
512MB DDR RAM
40 Gb Hard Disk
CDRW\DVD Combo Drive
14" TFT LCD Screen
802.11b/g Wireless LAN
Windows XP Professional
€549 Incl VAT


Dell Latitude C640
ntel Pentium 4 Processor M 1.8GHz
14.1" TFT Active Matrix
40GB Hard Drive
512Mb DDR SDRAM
CD DVD Combo Drive
Integrated LAN and 56k v.90 data fax modem
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500
Microsoft Windows 2000
€529 Incl VAT

Toshiba Tecra T9100
Intel Pentium 4 Processor
1.7 GHz
14.1" Display
30GB Hard Drive
512Mb DDR SDRAM
DVD ROM Drive
Integrated Speakers
Integrated LAN and 56k v.90 data fax modem
Windows XP Professional
€495 Incl VAT

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here. At first, I was going to jump at the ThinkPad - they seem to be very well built, are quite stylish, have gotten great reviews, and I've heard they're very light, which is something I'm looking for, though I do want a 14' screen.

However, I'm wondering if the specs (namely the 1.5Ghz processor) will be able to handle the above listed needs for the next 3-5 years (ideally 5 if possible). I suppose what it comes down to is: Should I buy a machine that is regarded as being better built and of a higher quality (Thinkpad) but a little slower, or should I go for one of the quicker machines? If the processor difference won't matter a whole lot, I'll go for the IBM - if it will do what I need for as long as I need. Otherwise, I'll go for one of the others, or wait for another deal to come along.

I know this isn't a mac question, but this forum is full of such knowledge and good advice that I couldn't go and buy one of these machines without asking for some suggestions here first.

Thanks guys

PS No telling me to buy a mac :p

[Reaver]

I would go with the IBM they make solid laptops.

[pixelbaker]

Thinkpad, definitely. built much better than the dell or the toshiba. don't worry about the 300mhz difference. you most likely wouldn't notice the difference between them.

[lmalave]

However, I'm wondering if the specs (namely the 1.5Ghz processor) will be able to handle the above listed needs for the next 3-5 years (ideally 5 if possible). I suppose what it comes down to is: Should I buy a machine that is regarded as being better built and of a higher quality (Thinkpad) but a little slower, or should I go for one of the quicker machines? If the processor difference won't matter a whole lot, I'll go for the IBM - if it will do what I need for as long as I need. Otherwise, I'll go for one of the others, or wait for another deal to come along.

All 3 computers are almost indistinguishabe in terms of their CPU. They are all Pentium 4 laptops, and The IBM is 1.5 GHz whereas the other two are 1.7 GHz and 1.8 GHz. This is really a negligible difference. The 300 MHz difference shoud make no difference in the useable lifespan of the computer.

I would say definitely go for the IBM if you are looking for reliability and longevity. I use an a ThinkPad T42 at work and it is definitely a great computer. Considering you are looking at computers that are already at least 2 or 3 years old, and you want it to last for 5 more, I would say reliability HAS to be your primary purchasing criteria. The IBM is well worth it even though it has a slightly slower CPU and slightly higher price than the other two options.

[mr_matalino]

None. MBP :D

[Sesshi]

Out of those, definitely the Thinkpad.

As for longevity, 3 - 5 years... definitely not. 2 years on the outside if you keep up with recommended app / OS updates (especially for web use) before it becomes untenably slow... although that of course will depend on your tolerance.

[lmalave]

As for longevity, 3 - 5 years... definitely not. 2 years on the outside if you keep up with recommended app / OS updates (especially for web use) before it becomes untenably slow... although that of course will depend on your tolerance.

I wholeheartedly disagree. No OS or App updates should be needed: why can't he just continue using Windows XP Pro, Firefox 2.0 or IE 6/7, and Office 2003? why does he need to "keep up with recommended app / OS updates?". All of the above apps should still be more than adequate 5 years from now.

And as far as Web use - I happen to make a living developing web sites, and I can tell you that websites are developed for the LOWEST common denominator. A computer from 2001 should definitely be able to have no problem viewing websites developed today. Don't believe me?: IE 6 is *the* browser that web sites are developed for, and IE 6 was released on August of 2001. Yup, just over 5 years ago. I would say 5 years from now maybe the lowest commond denominator will be IE 7 and Firefox 2.0 (both just recently officially released), and a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 has NO problem running either of those applications.

The same holds true for Office and hardware/software compatibility. Office 2007 is *still* not out yet (obviously), so Office 2003 should have little or no compatibility issues for at least the next 3 to 5 years. And the consumer version of Vista is *still* not out, so the vast majority of hardware and software makers will make sure they are still compatible with Windows XP.

[theman5725]

If you really want a computer to last 3-5 years why are you going for a refurb? Unless I missed something earlier, I don't see the point.

[esaleris]

As for longevity, 3 - 5 years... definitely not. 2 years on the outside if you keep up with recommended app / OS updates (especially for web use) before it becomes untenably slow... although that of course will depend on your tolerance.

I have a Thinkpad T40 1.6Ghz that I bought in June of 2003, when the Centrinos first came out. I have a Thinkpad T42 2.0Ghz at work that is much faster on paper, that I got new in June of 2005.

My personal IBM boots in 12 seconds, apps launch instantaneously. I've even dropped it once from desk level. Not a skip. My work IBM boots in more than 60 seconds, and IE takes forever to load.

The morale of the story? How fast your computer runs has a lot more to do with how you manage your software than it does your processing power (scientific use and gaming aside).

That aside, get the IBM - it's a nice machine.

[iris_failsafe]

None of the apps you mentioned run on Linux...

So you want a kind of Unix but you want to run commercial graphic apps...
Only if there was an OS that combined both...

Oh wait there is it's called Mac OS X and it runs on macs... wow what a discovery. listen I wouldn't buy any of those computers, you will get stuck in Windows since you can't do any of the work in Linux...

Buy a MacBook or MacBook Pro with a Core Duo, now that the core 2 duo have arrived there will be some flying around from people desperate to change...

BTw you can run linux also in virtualization mode...

[backsidetailsli]

dell
they have the best support

[clevin]

i just trust thinkpad more

[Smileyguy]

None of the apps you mentioned run on Linux...

So you want a kind of Unix but you want to run commercial graphic apps...
Only if there was an OS that combined both...

Oh wait there is it's called Mac OS X and it runs on macs... wow what a discovery. listen I wouldn't buy any of those computers, you will get stuck in Windows since you can't do any of the work in Linux...

.

I mention three apps, one of which (Scribus) does run on Linux. I have no problem working in Windows if I need to do. Most of my work will be word processing and the internet as I said, and I'm sure Linux can manage that.

[AutumnSkyline]

You can find a ton of powerbooks and iBooks on ebay, I don't see why you would want to get a windows machine....ick. I would much rather get a mac with more stability, and less chance of nasty virus's
:D

[Sesshi]

I wholeheartedly disagree. No OS or App updates should be needed: why can't he just continue using Windows XP Pro, Firefox 2.0 or IE 6/7, and Office 2003? why does he need to "keep up with recommended app / OS updates?". All of the above apps should still be more than adequate 5 years from now.

And as far as Web use - I happen to make a living developing web sites, and I can tell you that websites are developed for the LOWEST common denominator. A computer from 2001 should definitely be able to have no problem viewing websites developed today. Don't believe me?: IE 6 is *the* browser that web sites are developed for, and IE 6 was released on August of 2001. Yup, just over 5 years ago. I would say 5 years from now maybe the lowest commond denominator will be IE 7 and Firefox 2.0 (both just recently officially released), and a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 has NO problem running either of those applications.

The same holds true for Office and hardware/software compatibility. Office 2007 is *still* not out yet (obviously), so Office 2003 should have little or no compatibility issues for at least the next 3 to 5 years. And the consumer version of Vista is *still* not out, so the vast majority of hardware and software makers will make sure they are still compatible with Windows XP.

The problem is that current apps are already pretty heavyweight for that class of machine. It's also not about just the browser and the OS but lots of other things that will go on it as web apps develop, even if we stick just to Internet-based stuff. Of course he won't/can't be upgrading to Vista, but there will be security fixes for the OS in order for him to browse securely and there will be browser updates as well as functionality updates, all of which will eventually demand more than his machine can deliver at a decent clip. I'm not saying it won't work but I'm betting it will be painfully slow in just a couple of years.

If he sticks with Linux only, perhaps it's more viable. Either way I say go for the Thinkpad out of those.

[matthew24]

None, thanks,

Oh, the horror!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[pianoman]

thinkpad. they are the best windows-based laptops i've encountered.

[Smileyguy]

The problem is that current apps are already pretty heavyweight for that class of machine. It's also not about just the browser and the OS but lots of other things that will go on it as web apps develop, even if we stick just to Internet-based stuff. Of course he won't/can't be upgrading to Vista, but there will be security fixes for the OS in order for him to browse securely and there will be browser updates as well as functionality updates, all of which will eventually demand more than his machine can deliver at a decent clip. I'm not saying it won't work but I'm betting it will be painfully slow in just a couple of years.

If he sticks with Linux only, perhaps it's more viable. Either way I say go for the Thinkpad out of those.

Thanks for the input. Do you think the situation would be any different on an equivalent priced mac? Say a 1.2ghz Powerbook for example.

[Sesshi]

Thanks for the input. Do you think the situation would be any different on an equivalent priced mac? Say a 1.2ghz Powerbook for example.

Worse in terms of power. The Intel Macs caught up with the PC's in terms of the power curve and as you can read by the comments on this board, that was a shock to the system. Core Duo wasn't actually that revolutionary a jump in the power scale in terms of Windows, but as you will undoubtedly note the Macheads were amazed by the increase in speed. Things will now go at the Intel scale, which means the PPC's will be left behind quickly.

However, the inherent (for now) security of OS X does mean that you may not need to keep your system updated in order to keep browsing the web reasonably safely - in which case, it'll be irrelevant whether your system is truly obsolete as you can continue to use the same software. But you will most likely be locked out of any evolving web apps which need newer versions of plug-ins, etc.

[Smileyguy]

If I were to somehow manage to squeeze enough cash together to buy a refurbished CoreDuo Mabook, do you think it would make a lot of difference overall? My budget is VERY tight, so if it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference I won't bother.

Thanks again for the help.

[Sesshi]

That would be the best option for many reasons which I'm sure lots of other people will point out to you. the only thing I would say is that given my experiences, I would definitely recommend that sometime down the line before a year is up, you scrape together enough money to Applecare it.

[x86isslow]

There's a Refurb MacBook white/ 1.83GHz Intel Core Duo/ 512MB/ 60GB/ Combo/ BT/ AE - Apple Certified
Learn More
• Save 16% off the original price
Original price: £749.00
Your price: £635.68
(£541.00 ex VAT)

Ready to ship:
24hrs
Free Shipping on the Apple UK store

Its got a 13" screen, which is close to the 14" you're talking about. Quark has gone Universal already, so you'd be running pretty snappy with that CD machine- CD is far faster than a Pentium 4. And you could run Linux and Windows applications alongside Mac applications, so this computer would be my suggestion for you.

541 excluding VAT, while the prices you earlier mentioned include it. Apple refurb comes with 1 year Applecare.

[Smileyguy]

Thanks x86, but that works out at almost 950euro when converted, which is well out of my price range. If I were to get a refurbished macbook, I'd probably get one from the US. Small Dog electronics seem to have a bunch going for around 650euro, though I'd need to factor shipping in on top of that. The PC option is just so much easier and more convenient. A guess a decision has to be made.

[x86isslow]

Thanks x86, but that works out at almost 950euro when converted, which is well out of my price range. If I were to get a refurbished macbook, I'd probably get one from the US. Small Dog electronics seem to have a bunch going for around 650euro, though I'd need to factor shipping in on top of that. The PC option is just so much easier and more convenient. A guess a decision has to be made.

Oh, woops i misread the little symbol in front of the prices you quoted from your local dealer.

I thought you were from England!

[Smileyguy]

Ha, no worries. ;)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much it would cost to surface mail (I presume this is cheaper) a 5lb laptop from the US to Ireland?

[Sesshi]

Don't bother. You'll be charged VAT + duty on top of whatever you paid which will take it (with insured surface shipping) to the same if not more than what you'll pay at home, AND it'll take ages to get to you. If you have friends coming over from the US... that's a different story.

[Smileyguy]

Really? Wow. I didn' think it would be any more than 20 or 30 bucks for what would be a pretty small package really.

[Sesshi]

That's for uninsured postage only - assuming that whoever you're buying from even ships that way. If you want to run multiple risks I guess that's your call.

[chaosbunny]

If you are serious about the Quark/InDesign & other graphic design stuff you mentioned, get a mac, even if its a 1ghz G4. I know many graphic designers who still work with 450 mhz G4 towers and OS 10.3 or even OS 9. Even many agencies still have 800-1,2 ghz G4 towers as main workstations. And since Adobe Apps are not universal yet, and agencies usually wait until version 1.0 bugs are fixed with their upgrades in a production environment, there won't be hardly any intel macs in graphic design agencies for at least another year. My guess is that it will last at least another 2-3 years until intel macs become sort of a standard in the graphic design business.

Now these are the people you'll be working for/with.

If your budget is so tight I'd get a 800-1 ghz G4 power or ibook, use it to earn some cash with your design skills and get a mbp in 2 years with the money earned.

If the Quark/InDesign & other graphic design stuff you mentioned is more of a hobby than a job, then of course forget what I just said.;)

[Mord]

None of the above, I would not touch a P4 laptop with a bargepole, namely because the bargepole would catch fire.

If your going to get a pc laptop get something AMD if you can't afford a pentium M notebook, or just save up a bit more and just get a macbook, P4 laptops truly suck, they sound like jet engines and the battery life is a joke.

[Smileyguy]

Do you guys think something like this, brand new, would be better?

http://configure.euro.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=ie&cs=iedhs1&kc=305&l=en&oc=N12135&s=dhs&sbc=inspn_1300

And Mord, isn't the laptop I'm getting a Pentium M? What's the difference between a P4 M and a P M?