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MacRumors
Dec 7, 2006, 01:15 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Fresh off the heels of Jesse Tortora's research note (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/12/20061205134137.shtml) indicating that Apple would be interested in entering the video game market, Smarthouse.com.au is claiming that Apple has indeed indeed investigated entering the market (http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Games_And_Devices/Console?Article=/Games%20And%20Devices/Console/G6K9K2C8).

This week in Sydney the Vice President of Technology for Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, Paul Holman and I discussed the possibility of Apple entering the games market." [...] Another Sony Computer Entertainment executive said "We have known for some time of Apple's interest in the games market however it will be tough for them up against Sony and Microsoft and of late Nintendo. We believe that they will come into the games market late in 2007 but not with a pure gaming console. We are told that they are looking at a pretty powerful media centre with a big gaming capability. This is one of the reasons that we are looking at significant firmware upgrades between now and then to deliver a better media centre capability via the PS3".

According to Smarthouse, Apple has faced initial setbacks with IBM and Sony on getting their hands on the latest game-console CPU technology, which they may want to use in order to allow developers to seamlessly transition their games over to Apple's new platform.

Jesse Tortora claimed earlier this week that Apple's move into the living room with the "iTV" would be met with fierce competition from console-game makers, which may force Apple to add gaming capability to its solutions. From his research note:

Ultimately, we think Apple's decision to enter the video game market could depend on its need to defend its position against the competition in the battle over the digital home. Microsoft introduced new video download features with its latest Xbox 360 update. We believe that both Microsoft and Sony will eventually add full-length downloadable movies to their catalogs (especially since Sony owns a movie studio). There are no technical limitations to this capability, and Microsoft is already aggressively wooing the movie studios.

Initially, Tortora's comments appeared to be based on educated speculation, but the report from Smarthouse appears to corroborate the claims. However, readers should note that the Smarthouse article does have some glaring inaccuracies, notably a claim that Microsoft's XBox 360 CPU is made by Intel (it is in fact made by IBM (http://www-03.ibm.com/chips/news/2005/1025_xbox.html)).

Smarthouse also does not have an incredibly extensive rumor record. In 2003, Smarthouse claimed Apple was ready to move to Intel-based processors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030901110558.shtml), a move that did end up happening but not until this year. Smarthouse is currently predicting an Apple-branded tablet to be released in 2007 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/11/20061126112026.shtml).


[ Digg This (http://www.digg.com/apple/Gaming_Follow_up_Has_Apple_Already_Been_Shopping_Around_Late_2007_Launch) ]



princealfie
Dec 7, 2006, 01:16 PM
Hurrah, a real mac gaming console!

Rojo
Dec 7, 2006, 01:18 PM
Gaming as part of a media center makes much more sense than an actual gaming console. Looking forward to developments...

Markleshark
Dec 7, 2006, 01:19 PM
This as well as iTV? No thanks Apple...

~Shard~
Dec 7, 2006, 01:19 PM
It will be interesting to what kind of spin Apple puts on this if it does indeed come to fruition - as the article says, it would not be a dedicated console - so what then? ;) Integrated with iTV, Front Row, the Mac mini, who knows how it would work. Perhaps we will learn more at MWSF if Jobs speaks more about the iTV (which I'm assuming he definitely will.)

Hattig
Dec 7, 2006, 01:19 PM
If you want to have a games system release in late 2007 you've done more than hire a few game developers, etc, by now.

Clearly I see it as Apple incorporating some sort of gaming functionality into the iTV, either making it compatible with iPod games, or having iTV specific games (and/or ports of iPod games).

Maybe they just want a decent gaming API in Mac OS X, one that provides nice network gaming, audio, controls, etc, to the OS alongside OpenGL.

yellow
Dec 7, 2006, 01:19 PM
I assume that I'm not the only one who finds this rather ridiculous when games & Apple aren't even close to being synonymous?
I mean.. can we trust a gamers pseudo-console (whatever) from Apple when there are hardly even any games for OS X? :rolleyes:

chicagdan
Dec 7, 2006, 01:19 PM
What kind of track record does Smarthouse have, on Mac and non-Mac rumors? I'm skeptical of this ... I have no doubt that Apple's exploring this option, but it seems like a huge gamble. I suppose if gaming is a secondary part of the device -- like movies and music are to the XBOX -- okay, that might work. Maybe.

~Shard~
Dec 7, 2006, 01:21 PM
This as well as iTV? No thanks Apple...

As the article eludes to, I don't think this would be something separate from the iTV - I believe it would somehow be integrated with it, or be complementary in some fashion.

Rojo
Dec 7, 2006, 01:23 PM
Clearly I see it as Apple incorporating some sort of gaming functionality into the iTV, either making it compatible with iPod games, or having iTV specific games (and/or ports of iPod games).

I have a feeling any games developed would be both for the iPod AND iTV. I can't see them doing separate versions for each -- seems too confusing, especially if both are downloaded from iTunes. And Apple usually steers clear of confusing...

chicagdan
Dec 7, 2006, 01:26 PM
I have a feeling any games developed would be both for the iPod AND iTV. I can't see them doing separate versions for each -- seems too confusing, especially if both are downloaded from iTunes. And Apple usually steers clear of confusing...

That would be lame. I'm going to buy an iTV-2 to play breakout?

Hattig
Dec 7, 2006, 01:29 PM
I have a feeling any games developed would be both for the iPod AND iTV. I can't see them doing separate versions for each -- seems too confusing, especially if both are downloaded from iTunes. And Apple usually steers clear of confusing...

Which would suggest that the iTV is built around an ARM architecture, possibly a PortalPlayer chip like on the video iPods. Not really a powerhouse for more advanced games though.

Unless the iPod games run on a VM, e.g., Java. I haven't ever seen that mentioned though.

Thanatoast
Dec 7, 2006, 01:29 PM
The market's pretty crowded. I don't see where Apple's niche would be.

AppliedVisual
Dec 7, 2006, 01:33 PM
This as well as iTV? No thanks Apple...

I think people are looking at this wrong....

iTV looks to be an upgraded mini, probably with a faster CPU and a dedicated graphics chip. No reason it can't handle wireless controllers and play some decent games. Actually, if iTV sports a C2D at 2GHz or better with 1GB RAM and a decent GPU (ATI x1800 or nVidia 7800GT or better), we're already looking at a system that could provide gaming comparable to the Wii (without the nifty nunchuck controller), run most recent desktop system games and outside of very complex geometry at HD resolutions can still hold up against XBOX 360 and PS3.

You can bet there will be iTV games or simply Mac games with additional iTV features for when you load it on your iTV. ...Duh. Apple doesn't need an additional game console. They need to make iTV a powerful, flexible media center computer in a compact box. If people choose to play games on it, they go buy the necessary controller and a game or two.

blueflame
Dec 7, 2006, 01:34 PM
i see it this way. Apple really wants into the media center market. that is obvious. it is going to happen. sony is really big on their PS3 right now. apple also wants games. ibm and sony both are in on the cell proccessor, and sony and apple are with blueray. it seems to me, that everyone gains from apple doing this. maybe the apple game system will be based on (SONY TECH) and based around the PS3 with more media center capabilities. gets a split sony apple name, both people end up as winners even ibm. ive thought of something like this for them for a while. like the apple version of the PS3. Sony and apple are both backing blueray right? this is another stepping stone for the format war. blueray on PS3 is BIG new for the blueray format. Sony really wants this. I think apple does too.
A

Analog Kid
Dec 7, 2006, 01:34 PM
I love the suggestion that Nintendo is a recent entrant into the gaming market... :D

balamw
Dec 7, 2006, 01:36 PM
iTV looks to be an upgraded mini, probably with a faster CPU and a dedicated graphics chip.
Why do you think this? The iTV's price point is half of the current Mini and it still has major upgrades? The HDD and optical drive don't make up half of the Mini's price.

B

DavidLeblond
Dec 7, 2006, 01:37 PM
Apple would be better off putting DVR functionality in the iTV. I don't see that happening. Video games? Definitely not.

I'm thinking we'll see 1 or 2 more features added onto the iTV announced in January, and thats it. Nothing major.

iris_failsafe
Dec 7, 2006, 01:37 PM
They should work with Nintendo and integrate the Wii into the ITV/mini so that both machines share resources (the wii could use a new blue ray connected to the mini drive for example as well as its hard drive).
You could use the wii mote to control mac os X instead of a mouse...

840quadra
Dec 7, 2006, 01:38 PM
I love how Sony is saying it will be hard for Apple!

Sony, How about you focus on you staying in the Gaming market! Their lack of presence, and or failure to deliver is driving playstation diehards like myself nuts!

I also refuse to pay That much to buy a console, just to play the only game series I have ever been involved with. If options don't become available for a reasonable price. I will go to a new "favorite" in a heartbeat!

I welcome Apple into this market, and I am fine with Apple not going with an IBM cell processor. Perhaps one of the new fun PowerPC products mentioned at the beginning of 2006 may be the new entertainment / game / audio device that they may be coming out with ?

yellow
Dec 7, 2006, 01:39 PM
That would be lame. I'm going to buy an iTV-2 to play breakout?

That's "Breakout 2: Revenge of the Brick", to you buddy.

twoodcc
Dec 7, 2006, 01:40 PM
Hurrah, a real mac gaming console!

yeah, i hope it's true! that was be awesome. i doubt it will happen though, but hopefully it will.

ChrisA
Dec 7, 2006, 01:40 PM
I expect Apple wil get into gaming by adding games as secondary functions to other products. For example they will make games run in the iPod and then the iPhone and them add some more games to Leopard. later when iTV comes out it's main function will be to connect Front Row to a TV set wirelessly but it will also play some games. In the long run this will let Apple compete with Sony and MS.

Why "in the long run" because now in 2006 it takes special high-end graphics hardware to play a high-end game. But in a few years even entry level machines will be able to do HD (1080i) res at 60FPS. Once you have that why would you need better? Even the best TVs can't display more than 1080 at 60FPS. If they start building now in a few years the Apple game will look as good as the Xbox games. Apple just needs to make sure that each of their products fit together. For example the full screen video iPod, if it has a touch screen and bluetooth should be usable as a game controller for the game that is played on the iTV. Not total rocket science but they do have to get game developers involved in every product area. They need someone in those eary design meetings you can add perspective from a game designer's point of view.

So I don't expect any big announcements, it will be a slow process of gradualism where Apple products slowly become better at games

BoyBach
Dec 7, 2006, 01:41 PM
I love the suggestion that Nintendo is a recent entrant into the gaming market... :D


That made me chuckle too! I mean they've only been going for over 100 years and practically created the videogame industry (with apologies to Ralph Baer, Nolan Bushnell et al.)

tk421
Dec 7, 2006, 01:43 PM
This as well as iTV? No thanks Apple...

I'm inclined to agree. No thanks. But you never know...

jdbomar
Dec 7, 2006, 01:43 PM
I for one, would love it if Apple (or anybody else), would make it so that I didn't have to use 3 remote controls to turn on my TV and watch. I know that there are universal remotes, but they are pretty lackluster. As it stands right now, I can't go to another persons house and turn on their TV (and vice versa), because everyone I know is in the same predicament. You have to be versed in the launch sequence in order to turn anything on. Any step in the direction towards having some type of system that I could push one button and turn the TV on, the audio on, and the tuner on, is a step in the right direction. This might not be that step, but I hope that someone at Apple has this in mind.

roland.g
Dec 7, 2006, 01:45 PM
Gaming is to computers what porn is to the internet.

DMann
Dec 7, 2006, 01:45 PM
Now, this would indeed rival cell.......

mdntcallr
Dec 7, 2006, 01:46 PM
I think this would end up being a much better option than Itv.

But dont think Itv wouldnt be a nice welcome unit to have in the living room. Hell if i could do HD ppv on it. i would love it. and to run my itunes on my stereo.
perfect.

aside from that. I would love something be even better than my PS3. which is a great machine. it really is

adamcz
Dec 7, 2006, 01:49 PM
Apple will probably just want to make the ipod games work on the itv. Games like bejeweled and zuma. It wouldn't cost too much extra to add that ability, and it wouldn't really be competing with the big console makers. It's just a "testing the waters" move that has little downside.

Rojo
Dec 7, 2006, 01:49 PM
That would be lame. I'm going to buy an iTV-2 to play breakout?

No, you're going to buy an iTV in order to stream digital media from your computer to your TV. I think games will just be an added bonus. I really don't expect Apple to revolutionize games for the iTV -- I think it's just one more thing to add to make a real "media center."

blueflame
Dec 7, 2006, 01:50 PM
Gaming is to computers what porn is to the internet.

HILARIOUS. made my day
Andreas

Heiken
Dec 7, 2006, 01:51 PM
Hey what if Boot camp 2 not only could do XP but also PS2/3, X360 and Nintendo? And Apple selling the games in iTunes store ...

Rocketman
Dec 7, 2006, 01:54 PM
It sems to me that Apple is really focused on all software going Universal Binary, which means BOTH Freescale PowerPC and Intel Core.

Why not take advantage of recent PowerPC advances, dramatically lower per chip prices, multi-chip capabilities, and UB software, to base a game machine and media center, on a box with two busses, one for media and one for games so BOTH are fast and cheap?

The problem with cell is it is MORE expensive than even FOUR PowerPC chips and the bottlenecks for games and media are similar. Bus and I/O, not chip speed.

Rocketman

TheBobcat
Dec 7, 2006, 01:56 PM
Hey what if Boot camp 2 not only could do XP but also PS2/3, X360 and Nintendo? And Apple selling the games in iTunes store ...

Not only would that infringe on a multitude of copyrights, never be even be considered by any of the said players, and above all have system requirements that no computer today could meet realistically...I LIKE IT! :rolleyes:

lyzardking
Dec 7, 2006, 02:00 PM
The market's pretty crowded. I don't see where Apple's niche would be.

With Apple's experience with running in emulation they could do an "iGame"

Emulate all the old consoles (add your favorite console here) and a mame port and sell the games on iTMS (iGS?) with their DRM at $5-10 a pop and have a winner.

Nintendo is doing this now, why not Apple?

With the files DRM'd they'd assure copyright holders that they would only play on Apple hardware and ensure that non DRM'd games wouldn't play (no downloaded roms from the web <like mame>) :cool:

BKF
Dec 7, 2006, 02:02 PM
I think of Apple products as being designed by people truly interested in and perfectionist about what they're coming up with; a lot of labors of love seem to come out of that place, a lot of stuff that's better than it has to be. (As has been pointed out elsewhere, the bottom of an Apple laptop looks better than the top of most other laptops.) It's interesting to think of Apple being compelled to enter an area of the market that doesn't seem to interest Jobs or the company on the sort of personal level that so much of their other work seems to interest them. One wonders how those exacting Apple standards will be carried on in that situation.

sycho
Dec 7, 2006, 02:07 PM
I think people are looking at this wrong....

iTV looks to be an upgraded mini, probably with a faster CPU and a dedicated graphics chip. No reason it can't handle wireless controllers and play some decent games. Actually, if iTV sports a C2D at 2GHz or better with 1GB RAM and a decent GPU (ATI x1800 or nVidia 7800GT or better), we're already looking at a system that could provide gaming comparable to the Wii (without the nifty nunchuck controller), run most recent desktop system games and outside of very complex geometry at HD resolutions can still hold up against XBOX 360 and PS3.
iTV is going to have dedicated hardware chips to do all the decoding, it won't have an Intel Chip.

lyzardking
Dec 7, 2006, 02:07 PM
Hey what if Boot camp 2 not only could do XP but also PS2/3, X360 and Nintendo? And Apple selling the games in iTunes store ...

think alike.... :)

I don't think they could get the latest consoles to work (intel's processors are not up to emulating IBM's chip), but could easily do the xbox, PS2 and anything earlier.

The question would be for the last versions of the consoles xbox & PS2, are the manufacturers making money on them yet? Sony probably, M$, I doubt it.

If they aren't, then I would think it would be an easy sell.

zwilliams07
Dec 7, 2006, 02:07 PM
If this is true:

Going with the Cell processor would be about the dumbest thing Apple could do with it. While the Cell looks great on paper, as soon as you realize that it only has ONE general purpose CPU core and the other cores are DSP, you start to worry.

As a Computer Engineering major, DSPs are lousy for the majority (85%) of tasks that you want to use a console for. They are specifically aimed at a small audience of program functionality. As Carmarck (Id) or any other well known game developer will tell you a general purpose (preferably x86) CPU is the best available option for any serious game engine.

The only possible thing I could see those DSP cores being useful for is video (prerecorded, static) playback and even at that they aren't the best suited for such a task. Again a processor that supports OoP and L1 and L2 cache are far more preferable.

If Apple were to enter the gaming market (late) they would have to offer a lot more flexibility than the Xbox360 and the PS3. They would also have to rival Nintendo's affordability to fun ratio.

They would have to put out something like a dual/quad core ~2GHz Core 2 Merom with 512MB Unified system memory, and a custom GPU at least of the level of the ATIs 1900xt or nVidia's 7800+. Mind you the bandwidth between these components would have to be excessive. They would also have to offer a harddrive (3.5"), Wifi, and a broadly supported memory format like Nintendo has with the SD memory.

Right there is an expensive machine with a lack of games (that we know of). I doubt many would be willing to take the plunge. Apple would have to offer free dev kits to developers and hope to give them enough support to make it a viable option.

I just can't see the iTV as a serious game console, it will most likely lean on the edge of Media Center with SOME gaming capability.

Heiken: The PS3. X360, and Wii all run on custom hardware that is PowerPC based. Apple is now on x86. Trying to emulate PPC on x86 is like trying to win a dragster race when you have to walk with two busted legs.

bigjohn
Dec 7, 2006, 02:09 PM
let me play on virtualapple.org on my plasma and i'm happy

Rescue Raiders in HD!

thejadedmonkey
Dec 7, 2006, 02:16 PM
What about this for an "iTV"?

729 MHz PPC CPU
ATI GPU (this would account for the recent AMD rumors)
88 MB RAM
One SD memory card slot.
Two USB 2.0 ports.
512 MB built-in flash memory.
802.11b/g/n wireless
Slot-loading disc drive for DVD playback

This sounds like it would be a descent iTV product by apple.
This is also the specs of the N Wii. The only thing missing is... DVD playback! Which will be coming soon. when Nintendo and Apple announce that they will be teaming up to provide the ultimate livingroom experience.

Nintendo does the games, Apple does the multimedia. Win/Win, and this explains why the Wii doesn't have DVD playback yet. Nintendo wins too, because they need a multimedia experience like sony and MS offer, Apple wins because they need games like MS and Sony offer.

Wii - $250
iTV - $300
iTV+Wii - $350

It's that easy!

kalisphoenix
Dec 7, 2006, 02:22 PM
With Apple's experience with running in emulation they could do an "iGame"

Emulate all the old consoles (add your favorite console here) and a mame port and sell the games on iTMS (iGS?) with their DRM at $5-10 a pop and have a winner.

Nintendo is doing this now, why not Apple?

With the files DRM'd they'd assure copyright holders that they would only play on Apple hardware and ensure that non DRM'd games wouldn't play (no downloaded roms from the web <like mame>) :cool:

That would be incredibly sweet. Likely? No. But it would be incredibly sweet.

Even if they just did Nintendo and SNES. N64 too, but that's where I stopped caring. Didn't we hear rumors some time back about Apple and Nintendo rapping with each other, and some people (names not mentioned to protect the unintelligent) thought it might be Apple buying them out?

racebit
Dec 7, 2006, 02:24 PM
sorry, but I have to give this report about as much credibility as a report from the "Inquirer". A generous helping of salt makes it more palatable.

...Then again, this is a rumor site. We live off this kind of fodder:D

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 02:33 PM
The last thing we need is Apple joining as another belligerent in the Console Wars of 2343. Isn't 7 billion dead fanbois already enough?:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.12/images/pennyarcade2.jpg

Belive me, Trip Hawkins (Apple Employee #68, and founder of the 6th largest software company in the world, Electronic Arts) console gaming is a totally different market. Sony and MS lose money for the first part of the lifecycles of their consoles. Steve's hardware is too well designed (too much blood, sweat, tears, and Apple brainpower invested) for him to allow people NOT to pay money for it.

Ninty is the only one making money for the entirety of the lifecycle on the hardware. And they are already shipping the iPod/Mac 128k of video game consoles, the Nintendo Wii. The Wii already has the incrementally better user experience via the Wii remote, and the market orientation towards less expensive, less involved games.

Watch this video and then tell me what is Apple going to offer besides industrial design that doesn't evoke "white plastic-y Lego" (of course you will have to pretend the 1st gen Shuffle didn't exist) that Nintendo doesn't already have:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5cPVP_llfo

Seriously, does anyone have any concrete ideas as to what "Value-Add" Apple would have for the console gaming space? The rumors community is always one step ahead of what Apple ships, so if no one here can propose any compelling areas where Apple plans to add value, then we can assume they will NOT ship a console!

Here is my attempt to start a list:
1) iTunes Store integration. Apple's one-click buying experience via a desktop machine certainly beats Ninty's/Sony's web-browser-on-your-TV approach, and MS's "how-many-times-am-I-going-to-have-to-press-down-on-this-dpad-to-find-what-I-want-to-buy-?" approach to downloadable games.
2) TBD???
3) TBD???
4) ...anyone?

gkarris
Dec 7, 2006, 02:35 PM
Let's see:

Old XBox: a Pentium 3 black ugly box. XBox 360: A PowerPC white slim box with multimedia (sounds familiar?)

Old Gamecube: Small square box with small square discs, top loading. Wii: shinny white small square box with standard discs, slot loading (sounds familiar?)

Sony PS3: Cutting edge technology, icon driven GUI (sounds familiar?)

People say that Apple can't compete yet a lot of the success of the game console companies came from Apple innovations...

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 7, 2006, 02:36 PM
Apple has kind of knocked itself out of the gaming market by many blunders over the years. Mac Gaming is just about dead, hence Boot camp. Being able to run say PS3 games on your Mac native would be sweet, being able to run PC games on your Mac Native would be sweeter. I think they should be talking to Microsoft instead of Sony.

gkarris
Dec 7, 2006, 02:38 PM
Apple has kind of knocked itself out of the gaming market by many blunders over the years. Mac Gaming is just about dead, hence Boot camp. Being able to run say PS3 games on your Mac native would be sweet, being able to run PC games on your Mac Native would be sweeter. I think they should be talking to Microsoft instead of Sony.

If anything, it'll just be iTV that can do some games that you can play on your iPod and buy in iTunes.

My Tivo actually has some games on it.

NOTHING on the scale of XBox, Nintendo, or Playstation....

PS3 games for the Cell Processor won't run on an Intel based Mac (or any for that matter).

PC games on a Mac use boot camp or Parrallels or maybe an upcoming virtualization software scheme...

Talking to Microsoft, why? Windows game can run on an Intel Mac. XBox 360 games are now PowerPC...

Clive At Five
Dec 7, 2006, 02:40 PM
As always with this discussion, I think it would be very cool if Apple made a console. Is it realistic? Probably not. We'll see though.

Here's my diagnostic on the situation:

The Bad:

Ohhhhh it's SUCH a difficult market to break in to, not to mention that it's crowded already. You'd be stuck with four video-game options instead of three... and figuring out which content is available on what? Another player is just going to confuse things more.

Each added console manufacturer means an exponential increase in titles, features and combinations thereof, available to the consumer... which leads to exponentially more confusion. The consumers will tolerate only so much of this until he/she will draw a line and say "anything else new from this point out is too much information to process" and "otomatically" block it out. This may or may not be the case with an Apple console... let's call it "GamePod"

The Good:

If PS3 is the impending disaster that everyone says it is, next Christmas would be a great time to release a product. MS won't be ready for another XBox yet, the Wii will still be new, and the PS3 will be losing market/mind-share.

Secondly, (with surprising exception to the Wii) console gaming has been a very static platform, with graphics being the only MAJOR enhancement over the years. Apple has a knack for bringing new ideas to the table, specifically in arenas that have been stagnant for years (think portable music ;)). That being said, a GamePod could usher in a new era of gaming... that is, if Nintendo & the Wii haven't already done so.

If Apple intends to enter this market, the time to strike is soon.

-Clive

Some_Big_Spoon
Dec 7, 2006, 02:40 PM
I'm sure they have looked into it, they just needed a platform, and the PPC mac wasn't it (i mean, scan up MR's home page to see no multi-thread open gl for PPC). They have the platform now, i.e. iTV and ipod, obviously.

Smartest move i see, and this is just me, is the course they're already taking, which is to makes the games tertiary, and after thought neat thing that you can eventually get hooked on because the platform is with you 24/7. From there, you get dedicated interest. Smarter move than the full on blow out of an xbox or ps where it's got to be just right and have tons of developer support right out of the gate.

I've been wrong before though.

rd001
Dec 7, 2006, 02:41 PM
Apple will probably just want to make the ipod games work on the itv. Games like bejeweled and zuma. It wouldn't cost too much extra to add that ability, and it wouldn't really be competing with the big console makers. It's just a "testing the waters" move that has little downside.

If they leave the system backdoor open for easy programming by users, we could see XBMC media center ported to it quickly. And a port of all the Mame games. And Bittorrent clients, etc.

Just provide some upgraded versions of the iTunes games and let the indies do the rest. Just don't DRM the unit or lock the indy developers out.

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 02:52 PM
With Apple's experience with running in emulation they could do an "iGame"

Emulate all the old consoles (add your favorite console here) and a mame port and sell the games on iTMS (iGS?) with their DRM at $5-10 a pop and have a winner.
That would be incredibly sweet. Likely? No. But it would be incredibly sweet.

Even if they just did Nintendo and SNES. N64 too, but that's where I stopped caring.

oh, and by "iGame" you mean the Nintendo Wii's Virtual Console?

0010101
Dec 7, 2006, 02:55 PM
It is reasonable to assume that the 'First Person Shooter' craze will eventually die off as did other crazes.. disco.. the pet rock.. the cabbage patch kid.. care bears, etc.. and as the pendulum begins to swing in the direction of the next great game craze, it would be good to be positioned to jump on the proverbial wagon at that point.

At present, I think the iTV is a stupid idea. But if you're going to try to convince people to buy a computer to hook up to your TV, you might as well let them play games on it, too.. and if you're stepping into the fight at the dawn of the FPS death, you're really stepping off into a level battlefield.

I guess my point is that reverse compatibility and a back catalog is only important when that back catalog is valuable to the consumer.

I mean.. how many people refuse to buy an XBOX or PS2/3 because they can't plug Atari 2600 carts into it? Not many.

But a breakout, smash hit title only helps a consoles sales if the console is priced reasonably.. in todays market, thats the sub $599 price range.

Doctor Q
Dec 7, 2006, 03:06 PM
Maybe Apple's cutomers aren't the right market (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/11/20061130105539.shtml) for a gaming device.

In any case, Apple wouldn't be able to compete head to head with the Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo gaming establishment, so their only choice is to find a niche.

lyzardking
Dec 7, 2006, 03:10 PM
oh, and by "iGame" you mean the Nintendo Wii's Virtual Console?

yup, same idea, but with multiple back catalogs. Think Atari, Sega, Mame, Dreamcast, and anything else that you can't buy new anymore.

I think the Wii VC is a great idea, people with money want to "relive" their youth. What better way than to play the video games that you grew up with? :D

Markleshark
Dec 7, 2006, 03:19 PM
But wait...

There is already a Super-Fast Media Center/Game Able Machine, and with the way some of you are talking about Clovertown and such likes, I bet its about the same price... Click Me (http://www.apple.com/uk/macpro/) ... :rolleyes:

On a serious note tho, if iTV was to turn out to be some kind of all doing, all mighty piece of typical Apple excellence it would be great. However, gotta keep those £s down...

lyzardking
Dec 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
I mean.. how many people refuse to buy an XBOX or PS2/3 because they can't plug Atari 2600 carts into it? Not many.

Agreed, but I for one am not happy that the majority of my xbox games aren't playable on a 360, the only reason I'd even consider one is for an exclusive title. So now they've made me a new customer and not a repeat customer. Knowing that I have to keep my old console, it doesn't matter who I buy from next.

But a breakout, smash hit title only helps a consoles sales if the console is priced reasonably.. in todays market, thats the sub $599 price range.

It would have to be closer to the Wii's price to work well as a "virtual console"

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
Maybe Apple's cutomers aren't the right market (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/11/20061130105539.shtml) for a gaming device.

In any case, Apple wouldn't be able to compete head to head with the Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo gaming establishment, so their only choice is to find a niche.
Apple just has to embrace the video card and PC gaming, not console gimmicks.

mackiwi
Dec 7, 2006, 03:35 PM
those rumour threads that said the ipod was a stupid idea.

In a few years this thread will be brought up for comedic purposes, as apples game system will be uberpopular.

one of two things will happen:

1) apple has somethiing awesome up its sleeve, and it will rock.

2) apple buys nintendo. Its been said before because it makes so much sense.

on a unrelated topic....whatever happened to VR helmets? I remember one game out for the PC around the time of doom & doom II, and most 3d games were playable with a simple patch. Anyone ever use one?

TheBobcat
Dec 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
Apple just has to embrace the video card and PC gaming, not console gimmicks.

YES!

Apple has no experience with serious gaming, and I think before anyone considers Apple's aspirations for separate gaming systems, they need to get the House of Mac more friendly. It'd be good for Apple and the platform.

AppliedVisual
Dec 7, 2006, 03:45 PM
iTV is going to have dedicated hardware chips to do all the decoding, it won't have an Intel Chip.

I agree on the dedicated media processors... But I don't think anyone outside of Apple knows if it will be a few of such processors with a smaller controlling CPU or if they will try to actually put a real CPU in there... I guess we'll know more in a month.

You're probably right though... Apple is going to want iTV to be affordable. First and foremost it will be an iPod for your TV with direct access to the iTunes store.

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 03:52 PM
I think of Apple products as being designed by people truly interested in and perfectionist about what they're coming up with; a lot of labors of love seem to come out of that place, a lot of stuff that's better than it has to be.

Sing it, brother! Apple is almost defined by "people truly interested in and perfectionist about..." as opposed to the clowns at Dell, Gateway, etc. who see it as nothing more than a way to pay the bills.

Now watch this clip of Satoru Iwata and Shiggy Miyamoto, CEO and Senior Marketing Director respectively of Nintendo, playing Wii Sports Tennis with a lucky fanboi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKx1UbYQzNg

Look at those smiles! Check out the crazy enthusiam from a CEO of a $30 Billion dollar company. That is "people truly interested in...".

As for the "and perfectionist about..." part, don't let the smiles fool you. Shiggy is a notorious taskmaster, known for scrapping projects in their final phases and sending them back for complete redesigns. He calls it "upending the tea table". One of his more famous quotes is: "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever". Sounds like another perfectionist we are all familiar with.

Try to imagine Steve and Phil on Stage at a Keynote behaving in the fashion of that video. It's just NOT going to happen. That is why it seems very unlikely that Apple has anything valuable to add to the console gaming market, and at the same time very likely that the Nintendo Wii might already be the iPod/Mac 128k of video game consoles.

NewSc2
Dec 7, 2006, 03:58 PM
I suppose Apple's looking into gaining ground in the next theater of innovation, which is what xbox360 and PS3 already have -- some sort of media center for your TV. Thing is that games can offer a more immersive experience than TV or Movies.

I found it funny that they said "and now, Nintendo" as well, but I have to think that Nintendo's going to be another Apple in the world of consoles -- focusing on gaming and nothing else. Maybe Apple'll come along and sit next to them (iTV + Wii) or maybe Apple will try to join Microsoft and Sony... which I don't want them to. Partner up with Nintendo! They already copied your looks (DS Lite) maybe a Japanese company'll warm up to an American one (fat chance).

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 04:28 PM
yup, same idea, but with multiple back catalogs. Think Atari, Sega, Mame, Dreamcast,

Just for posterity the Nintendo Wii Virtual Console already has 6 Sega games you can buy today and 3 more announced:
http://www.nintendo.com/gamelist?cf=Virtual+Console+--+Sega+Genesis

Altered Beast
Columns
Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine (Announced)
Ecco the Dolphin
Golden Axe
Gunstar Heroes (Announced)
Ristar
Sonic the Hedgehog
Toe Jam & Earl (Announced)

There are also already 4 NEC TurboGrafx-16 games, plus 1 announced:
http://www.nintendo.com/gamelist?cf=Virtual+Console+--+TurboGrafx16

Bomberman '93
Bonk's Adventure
Dungeon Explorer (Announced)
Super Star Soldier
Victory Run

With Nintendo adding 4 new games a week to the Wii Virtual Console, it looks like there may well be much more that just the Ninty back catalog, and Atari doesn't seem that unlikely. Dreamcast seems like a little bit much for the Wii Virtual Console to emulate though, and the games would be very large downloads, however most Dreamcast GD-ROM, ...uh, ROMs would fit on a 1Gb SD card. Playing Shenmue again by just poping an SD card into the Wii would be much nicer than having to pick up a used Dreamcast off eBay, but I'm guessing it won't happen.

gfrisk
Dec 7, 2006, 04:36 PM
Okay, hopefully someone else can remember this too....but I've heard rumors of Apple/Nintendo partnership talks before. In fact, I think even prior to the Wii, when it was still called the Revolution, that there was some rumor about Apple and Nintendo talking.

This is a partnership that makes sense. Apple doesn't want to be in the game business, they just don't want to lose because of it. Apple has never been successful with the games industry, and Nintendo has never gotten past being the "cute" games console. Media and computing is what Nintendo has never wanted to touch. Plus there is a huge overlap with the two companies demographics. Apple reaches a great non-traditional gamer demo, and Nintendo's products have all been skewed towards reaching the non-trad gamer.

This also seems to explain Nintendo's choice to leave out DVD playback, and their vague-ness about future DVD playback in upcoming Wii consoles.

I don't know that it will happen, but it's not a crazy idea.

Gee
Dec 7, 2006, 04:38 PM
It is reasonable to assume that the 'First Person Shooter' craze will eventually die off as did other crazes.. disco.. the pet rock.. the cabbage patch kid.. care bears, etc.. and as the pendulum begins to swing in the direction of the next great game craze, it would be good to be positioned to jump on the proverbial wagon at that point.

Actually, according to Wikipedia, the first FPS was Maze War, which was programmed less than a year after Pong in 1973. Wolfenstein and Doom came out 13 years ago. The FPS genre is not relly a craze as such.

Lynxpro
Dec 7, 2006, 05:10 PM
Which would suggest that the iTV is built around an ARM architecture, possibly a PortalPlayer chip like on the video iPods. Not really a powerhouse for more advanced games though.
Unless the iPod games run on a VM, e.g., Java. I haven't ever seen that mentioned though.


Someone has probably already commented on this, but I thought near-future iPods were scheduled to get Nvidia chips in them...which would be a step-up for game play above what PortalPlayer and ARM could provide.


And yes, I realize the 3DO was powered by an ARM chip back-in-the-day, but its raw graphics capabilities got pwned by the custom graphics chips+trusty Motorola 68000 found in the competing Atari Jaguar.

Lynxpro
Dec 7, 2006, 05:17 PM
That made me chuckle too! I mean they've only been going for over 100 years and practically created the videogame industry (with apologies to Ralph Baer, Nolan Bushnell et al.)


Nintendo was a trading card company. In no way did create the video game industry nor were they one of the first companies to jump into the emerging market.

People can cite Ralph Baer all they want to, but the video game industry started with Atari in 1972. And astute users of this board will also cite that Apple also comes from that same origin as well, via Atari.


Besides, Space War predates Baer. George W. needs to give a Presidential medal to Nolan Bushnell too. After all, his daddy used to get free travel from Nolan's personal jet back-in-the-day.

0010101
Dec 7, 2006, 05:20 PM
Actually, according to Wikipedia, the first FPS was Maze War, which was programmed less than a year after Pong in 1973. Wolfenstein and Doom came out 13 years ago. The FPS genre is not relly a craze as such.

Wolf 3D was the first 'FPS' I remember seeing, and it seems like a year or so afterward DOOM hit the scene and, in my opinion, really launched the First Person Shooter as we know it today.

So it's had a good run, and the advancement of technology has fueled it thus far.. much the way technology fueled the 'platform' games, and pinball machines before it. But sooner or later technology can only push it so far before it just gets boring.

10 years from now.. probably even 5 years from now, we'll still have First Person Shooter type games, but I predict they won't be the rage they all seem to be today. The king of the next gaming wave is going to be the company who cooks up that next 'must have' game platform, and gets it to market.

Apple is a company known for their innovation. If they wanted to develop gaming capability into their iTV product, i'd expect them to approach those games with that same innovation.. not just regurgitate the same old FPS garbage on a new console.

Cameront9
Dec 7, 2006, 05:22 PM
those rumour threads that said the ipod was a stupid idea.


2) apple buys nintendo. Its been said before because it makes so much sense.


Apple buying Nintendo Makes NO SENSE whatsoever. So the young company, Apple, is going to buy the grounded-with-tradition, 1889-founded Japanese-cultured Nintendo? The same Nintendo that has no debt and is sitting on cold, hard cash?

Trust me, it's NOT going to happen. Partnership, maybe. Buying them Outright? Not going to happen while the current leaders are alive. That's not the way Nintendo does business.

Nintendo is in best financial position they've been in since the Famicom days right now. No way are they going to offer themselves for sale.

I even think a partnership is unlikely. Nintendo learned well the lessons of the Super NES CD fiasco (which led to the development of the Playstation).

dukemeiser
Dec 7, 2006, 05:22 PM
iTunes Game Store anyone? Wouldn't that give them a leg up! All games would be downloaded directly to the console! No discs! Apple could undercut the competition (Sony, MS, Nintendo) with cheaper games that don't require any physical packaging. You could start playing the game as it was downloading (which wouldn't work for all games, but those with a linear story line would). Basically the same as virtual console for the Wii.

Of course you could also buy music, videos and everything else which could sync with the iPod.

Lynxpro
Dec 7, 2006, 05:27 PM
With Apple's experience with running in emulation they could do an "iGame"
Emulate all the old consoles (add your favorite console here) and a mame port and sell the games on iTMS (iGS?) with their DRM at $5-10 a pop and have a winner.


I like your idea. Even before the Wii's Virtual Console (or the Xbox 360 Marketplace, to be fair), the sales of the Atari Flashback 1 and 2, not to mention those all-in-one emulation controllers by Jaxx's Games confirms that consumers would love the chance to play the old classics.

Just add support for stereo, upscaling, multiplayer, etc. and they would sell massively.

Even without the participation of Nintendo (for the NES titles), I'm sure Sega would be anxious to contribute titles, whether in the form of the original arcade ROMs, or from the various Sega platforms like the Master System, MegaDrive/Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, etc. You could get Atari's titles - including arcade - as well as titles from the 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx/Jaguar, plus the computer platforms like the 400/800/XL/XE and the ST/STe/TT/Falcon.

Add to that, whoever owns the rights to Commodore's wares, plus the Intellivision and the ColecoVision....

This would truly rock...be low-cost, and highly profitable.

Cameront9
Dec 7, 2006, 05:27 PM
Nintendo was a trading card company. In no way did create the video game industry nor were they one of the first companies to jump into the emerging market.

People can cite Ralph Baer all they want to, but the video game industry started with Atari in 1972. And astute users of this board will also cite that Apple also comes from that same origin as well, via Atari.


Besides, Space War predates Baer. George W. needs to give a Presidential medal to Nolan Bushnell too. After all, his daddy used to get free travel from Nolan's personal jet back-in-the-day.

Nintendo didn't create the video game industry, but an argument can be made that they created the MODERN video game industry with the launch of the NES. You have to remember that NOBODY wanted another video game console in 1985--the Market was DEAD. Shot in the foot. A fad; Over. The NES revitalized home gaming and pushed the market in the direction it is today.

0010101
Dec 7, 2006, 05:30 PM
iTunes Game Store anyone? Wouldn't that give them a leg up! All games would be downloaded directly to the console! No discs! Apple could undercut the competition (Sony, MS, Nintendo) with cheaper games that don't require any physical packaging. You could start playing the game as it was downloading (which wouldn't work for all games, but those with a linear story line would). Basically the same as virtual console for the Wii.

Of course you could also buy music, videos and everything else which could sync with the iPod.

Not sure that would work all that well. Packaging for software is really just pennies, man. Game console manufacturers generally sell the consoles at or below actual cost, and make their money back on the games they sell.. which is why the games are so expensive.

So while they could definitely offer the games for sale via download, you might not have a lot of people feeling real comfortable paying $50+ a game and not have a hard copy.

Having the disk in your hands is what it's all about for the customer. Makes it easy to take the game to a friends house without lugging your machine over too.. if the system barfs, you still have your game.. and if you get tired of the game, you can sell it to the local used game shop, or get credit twards the purchase of another title.

Not to mention downloading 4GB's isn't all that quick or pleasurable an experience for a lot of folks.

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 05:30 PM
...as the pendulum begins to swing in the direction of the next great game craze, it would be good to be positioned to jump on the proverbial wagon at that point.

Yes, but how is Apple positioned to add value that people will pay for in any way that the others in the console market aren't? Any ideas?

Here is my attempt at a list from a prevous post:
1) iTunes Store integration. Apple's one-click buying experience via a desktop machine certainly beats Ninty's/Sony's web-browser-on-your-TV approach, and MS's "how-many-times-am-I-going-to-have-to-press-down-on-this-dpad-to-find-what-I-want-to-buy-?" approach to downloadable games.
2) TBD???
3) TBD???

anyone willing to venture a guess past #1?

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 05:33 PM
Apple is a company known for their innovation. If they wanted to develop gaming capability into their iTV product, i'd expect them to approach those games with that same innovation.. not just regurgitate the same old FPS garbage on a new console.

Agreed, but are you willing to venture a guess as to what that innovation is?

Trip Hawkins
Dec 7, 2006, 05:42 PM
1) apple has somethiing awesome up its sleeve, and it will rock.

Again, are you willing to venture a guess as to what that "somethiing" will be?

I guess the double i's in "somethiing" disclose which console vendor has your mindshare, so in advance, you can't just say Apple will copy the Nintendo Wii. ;) Whatever you propose has to be a value-add above and beyond the Wii.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 7, 2006, 05:43 PM
All you console lovers seem to forget the greatest gaming machine and platform on the planet. Its called the PC. You can download games for it today, you can still buy them in packages in stores, it has the largest number of titles period, its upgradeable. Apple not paying attention to this is as stupid as not paying attention to the TV.

0010101
Dec 7, 2006, 06:01 PM
Yes, but how is Apple positioned to add value that people will pay for in any way that the others in the console market aren't? Any ideas?

Well that's the thing. The way Apple would 'add value' to their console would be, aside from the iTV features, having developed that next 'must have' game.

The truth is, Nintendo would have tanked in the home console market years ago if it didn't have it's widely popular Zelda and Mario franchises that were only available on THEIR machine.

That's the only way I see Apple pulling off a iTV/Game console.. by using their established nack for making pretty OSes and cases to cook up that next 'must have' game.. and making it only available on THEIR platform.

Lynxpro
Dec 7, 2006, 06:05 PM
Actually, according to Wikipedia, the first FPS was Maze War, which was programmed less than a year after Pong in 1973. Wolfenstein and Doom came out 13 years ago. The FPS genre is not relly a craze as such.

But in terms of multiplayer FPS, MIDI Maze predates Wolfenstein. That was something back-in-the-day, fighting against 16 other players on Atari STs linked via the MIDI ports.

The game was later known as Faceball 2000 when it was ported to the various consoles.

j26
Dec 7, 2006, 06:06 PM
Not sure that would work all that well. Packaging for software is really just pennies, man. Game console manufacturers generally sell the consoles at or below actual cost, and make their money back on the games they sell.. which is why the games are so expensive.

So while they could definitely offer the games for sale via download, you might not have a lot of people feeling real comfortable paying $50+ a game and not have a hard copy.

Just a thought here. The packaging costs pennies, but how much does distribution cost? When you account for retailers margin, distribution, and stock overheads, I reckon that must easily come up to half the cost of a game. So say the seller of the game is making $25. If the online retailer could sell that same game for $40 and as part of the service send out a hard copy, manual etc, the game maker is still making more and the consumer is saving too. It would also get around shortages of popular games as anyone could easily download the game and wouldn't be too fussed on getting the discs until a few days later.
When the Wii launched I seem to remember threads here and there about how some games weren't easy to find. Downloading would get around that.

This is all academic to me - I'm not a gamer, but it does seem that if you optimise the distribution channels, everyone gains.

0010101
Dec 7, 2006, 06:09 PM
Agreed, but are you willing to venture a guess as to what that innovation is?

If I were, i'd be running out and getting a patent/copyright on it, not blabbing about it on the internet! :)

This is all speculative.. since the only thing i've actually heard Apple is 'for sure' cooking up is the iTV thing.. but it isn't much of a stretch so think that if they're going to make a box that connects to a TV, that they might cook up a game or two to play on it.

I'll just say that for the iTV to really take off.. it's going to need something cool.. and to be a commercial sucess, it'll need something everybody just has to have.

In the same way the Tetris, Mario, and Zelda really pushed NES sales.

Lynxpro
Dec 7, 2006, 06:11 PM
Nintendo didn't create the video game industry, but an argument can be made that they created the MODERN video game industry with the launch of the NES. You have to remember that NOBODY wanted another video game console in 1985--the Market was DEAD. Shot in the foot. A fad; Over. The NES revitalized home gaming and pushed the market in the direction it is today.


That is what the stupid pundits said about the collapse at the time. That video games were a fad. I knew it wasn't over and so did all the other kids of that era. I was waiting for the 7800 to debut back in 1984 when it was promised, thank you very much. But thanks to Atari's "restructuring", I didn't get one until 1986 when the Tramiel family decided it would be a good idea to finally release the fully completed console after the NES hit the American market.

So no, Nintendo did not create the modern game industry. They jumped in when the other traditional heavy-weights were in retreat and a vacuum existed. Had Atari not been sold by Warner Communications, there would be no modern Nintendo company because it would have remained only a power house in Japan because Atari would have kept them locked out of the North American and European markets.

joeshell383
Dec 7, 2006, 06:12 PM
I call a merger with Nintendo. The Wii and DS fit like gloves into Apple. Apple-like design (iPod-esque), Apple-like innovation (sensor system and touch screen/dual screens). The iTV2 will fold into the Wii, bringing a formidable competitor to PS3 and XBOX 360 (media+games). The DS/GB micro/GBA SP fold into iPod/iPhone bringing a formadable competitor to PSP (media + games) After all, it seems like there has only been enough room for three home consoles per generation (lately).

*** IT IS UNLIKELY BECAUSE NINTENDO HAS A HIGH MARKET CAPITALIZATION***

Lynxpro
Dec 7, 2006, 06:14 PM
iTunes Game Store anyone? Wouldn't that give them a leg up! All games would be downloaded directly to the console! No discs! Apple could undercut the competition (Sony, MS, Nintendo) with cheaper games that don't require any physical packaging. You could start playing the game as it was downloading (which wouldn't work for all games, but those with a linear story line would). Basically the same as virtual console for the Wii.


As I said in the earlier thread, Apple would be halfway there if they purchased the Steam service from Valve. Either Apple or Google should buy it just as a means of keeping Microsoft's ambitions at [Michael] bay.

0010101
Dec 7, 2006, 06:24 PM
Just a thought here. The packaging costs pennies, but how much does distribution cost? When you account for retailers margin, distribution, and stock overheads, I reckon that must easily come up to half the cost of a game. So say the seller of the game is making $25. If the online retailer could sell that same game for $40 and as part of the service send out a hard copy, manual etc, the game maker is still making more and the consumer is saving too. It would also get around shortages of popular games as anyone could easily download the game and wouldn't be too fussed on getting the discs until a few days later.
When the Wii launched I seem to remember threads here and there about how some games weren't easy to find. Downloading would get around that.

Retailer margin on most console game software is pretty low.. maybe 15% and general distribution/delivery costs are generally absorbed by the retailer.

So if you cut out all the packaging, and the 'middleman', and relied on 'digital delivery' to the end user, you'd be shaving maybe 20% of the price.. but when you take into account the additional costs of bandwidth, server space, servers to host the downloads.. you pretty much end up tacking that cost right back on to the product.

Retailers aren't going to be interested in just selling the console, anyway. That 15% profit per game really adds up when you sell in volume.. and makes carrying the console more attractive to them.

Customers aren't going to be interested in buying a console, then going home with NO GAMES and have to download games for the next week.

Not to mention the other issues.. customers wanting a hard copy, printed documentation, and something they can sell to re-coup some of their investment when they get tired of the game.

Sabenth
Dec 7, 2006, 06:27 PM
Simple logic here really xbox ps3 offer content galore the itv wont cut the mustard with a remote now the wii on the other hand has just proven a remote can actualy bloody work so apples gona jump on this band wagon without a doubt

ipedro
Dec 7, 2006, 09:14 PM
A quick Google search produced this result:

http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34750.jpg
http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34751.jpg
http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34752.jpg

Nice!

That said, I'm of the opinion that raw computing for a game will happen on the Mac which will be streamed to your TV via iTV.

Apple is in the business of selling Mac's and iPod's. Their strategy has been to strengthen each of those, not create new products that cannibalize their 2 pillars.

Apple will want to sell more Mac's by making them more attractive to gamers and allow these people to play games on their TV. This can be achieved with existing technology: Mac + iTV.

I expect Leopard to include a Core Gaming engine. ;)

gkarris
Dec 7, 2006, 11:00 PM
That iPlay looks like one of those small desktop office shredders...

AppliedVisual
Dec 7, 2006, 11:11 PM
That iPlay looks like one of those small desktop office shredders...

I was thinking the same thing. And the half-cylinder shape makes no sense... Lots of wasted space there. Also, who wants a cord on their controller these days... That's so last year.

paulpratt
Dec 7, 2006, 11:31 PM
I thought it would be neat to see the old mac "Cube" get a new face lift for 07 as a game console. Obviously not the same specs but a similar design would be great. Not really a huge value to the conversation just a fan boy dream.

n8mac
Dec 7, 2006, 11:35 PM
Old Gamecube: Small square box with small square discs, top loading. Wii: shinny white small square box with standard discs, slot loading (sounds familiar?)

Well crap. I've had a Gamecube since it was released and all I have been able to find are the round disks. We're the 'square disks' special edition games? Please let me know where to get these 'square disks' and I will be on it like white on rice!

Eduardo1971
Dec 7, 2006, 11:52 PM
Go pippin!!!:o

Markleshark
Dec 8, 2006, 02:44 AM
http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34751.jpg

I just threw up in my mouth a little™

rdas7
Dec 8, 2006, 03:39 AM
Given that the XBOX 360 is a bunch of G5 chips and the Sony PS3 is CELL (fancy name for something roughly the same spec as the XBOX 360), would it be unreasonable to think that Apple might leverage some of their Boot Camp/Parallels virtualization capabilities to run an XBOX or PS1/2/(3???) as a virtual machine?

For example, reboot your 8 core Xeon MacPro into MacOSX/Vista/XBOX/PlayStation mode and then use whatever games you want?

I know there are a lot of technical hurdles, but could that be the rough direction that Apple could take in entering a games market?

After all, it would be ridiculous for Apple to become a games publisher (eg. Sega) in such a low margin industry. The only profit comes from the hardware (which subsidized but then recovered in software sales), but adding *another* console to the mix (Wii, XBOX360, PS3 + ???) I'd say is far too risky.

r-sparks
Dec 8, 2006, 04:30 AM
If you ask me, Apple should sniff around Nintendo. The two companies have a lot in common and are natural allies. The Wii is a product that I could see Apple marketing, for example. It's innovative, clever, and unlike the competition.

It's also interesting how Nintendo and Apple have both built businesses on the back of a handful of early successes. Mario for Nintendo, and Mac for Apple. Both have been losing market share to the competition ever since.

Apple doesn't mind being second-place in the market, preferring a strategy of exclusivity, and Nintendo's CEO recently went on record as saying they're looking to be third place in the market, behind Sony and Microsoft.

koobcamuk
Dec 8, 2006, 04:45 AM
All you console lovers seem to forget the greatest gaming machine and platform on the planet. Its called the PC. You can download games for it today, you can still buy them in packages in stores, it has the largest number of titles period, its upgradeable. Apple not paying attention to this is as stupid as not paying attention to the TV.

I hate PC games and PC gamers. Just my 10 pence. Hate might be a bit strong, I just don't like gaming on a mouse and keyboard. Or through the same machine that I work on.

koobcamuk
Dec 8, 2006, 04:48 AM
A quick Google search produced this result:

http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34750.jpg
http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34751.jpg
http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34752.jpg

Nice!

That said, I'm of the opinion that raw computing for a game will happen on the Mac which will be streamed to your TV via iTV.

Apple is in the business of selling Mac's and iPod's. Their strategy has been to strengthen each of those, not create new products that cannibalize their 2 pillars.

Apple will want to sell more Mac's by making them more attractive to gamers and allow these people to play games on their TV. This can be achieved with existing technology: Mac + iTV.

I expect Leopard to include a Core Gaming engine. ;)

That's gross and I would never buy it.

Sly
Dec 8, 2006, 05:12 AM
I can't see Apple making this mistake again. The Pippin should have been great, the hardware was superior to Playstation. In the end it sold less than 10,000 units worldwide.

fraggle
Dec 8, 2006, 05:52 AM
I can't see Apple making this mistake again. The Pippin should have been great, the hardware was superior to Playstation. In the end it sold less than 10,000 units worldwide.

Well, it cost twice as much: $599. Today people consider the PS3 to be expensive at that price point and more than 10 years ago that price was beyond ridiculous.

mr.suff
Dec 8, 2006, 06:49 AM
If Apple did launch a download service they could structure it much like Infinium Labs Phantom service, the console is now defunct, but they had the basic workings of a game download service.
And is it theoretically possible to have two computers downloading the same game just different chunks of it simultaenously and then streaming it to the iTV? say your desktop downloadds the first 8th, whilst your laptop gets the second 8th. Would this be possible and if so wouldn't it make downloads faster/easier?
And another idea, the full screen Video iPod *cough* could be used as the controller, all it would need is a small add on that would fit around the iPod, and then the screen could be used as an additional display for in game info, say a map, or what you need to do.

suffy

dazzer21
Dec 8, 2006, 07:52 AM
Well I've been waiting and waiting and it hasn't happened yet - the Mac is way more than capable of having a "Gran-Turismo"- or "Project Gotham"-style racer - no developer have taken up the challenge yet and I don't think Apple producing any kind of games console is going to change that. If you're in the market for that kind of thing, surely very fast PC emulation will satisfy that need.

So is this going to be something to run PC games on - or is the next gen iPod going to be capable of running something at 40+ FPS full screen...?

mhagerman
Dec 8, 2006, 07:54 AM
what the heck? "and as of late, Nintendo"? does the speaker know absolutely nothing about the history of video games, or are they just trying to imply that Nintendo just wasn't solid enough before the Wii? both of which are completely untrue, in either case...

sorry, didn't have time to read all the posts - don't know if this has been touched on or not. that little bit just irked me.

Supa_Fly
Dec 8, 2006, 08:32 AM
After all that has been said on this I still mark it a negative.

Apple previously already failed at trying to bring a gaming console to the market "Griffin" I think it was called. Great collectors item but a waste of cash reserves.

Wii is the great challenger to the XBox360; its almost safe to say that with M$' jump on other platforms ... they own this generation. Yes I loathe to say that but its looking that way. PS3 will gain momentum and sales next year as more titles get released.

I just feel better R&D can be spent for other ventures that will be more fruitful to Apple, its developers & its customers.

iPhone rumored device isnt a re-incarnation of the Newton; by comparison.

lmalave
Dec 8, 2006, 08:51 AM
I call a merger with Nintendo. The Wii and DS fit like gloves into Apple. Apple-like design (iPod-esque), Apple-like innovation (sensor system and touch screen/dual screens). The iTV2 will fold into the Wii, bringing a formidable competitor to PS3 and XBOX 360 (media+games). The DS/GB micro/GBA SP fold into iPod/iPhone bringing a formadable competitor to PSP (media + games) After all, it seems like there has only been enough room for three home consoles per generation (lately).

*** IT IS UNLIKELY BECAUSE NINTENDO HAS A HIGH MARKET CAPITALIZATION***

Yeah, no way it would be a merger. That would be stupid. A merger shouldn't just be because two companies like each other! There has to be a sound financial or operational reason for the merger. I think a partnership or licensing agreement is much more likely. So here is what I predict:

This gaming "console" could be nothing more than a Mac mini (albeit enhanced with dedicated graphics, finally). Think about it. Someone has already found a way to use the Wiimote as a Bluetooth "controller" for the Mac. What if Apple were to license the Wiimote from Nintendo, not to mention the more popular Nintendo game titles? Apple could port the Nintendo games to OS X, or maybe somehow build an efficient emulation for the Wii (not sure how realistic that would be with all the 3D graphics though).

This would be win-win for Nintendo and Apple, since Nintendo would make more money from selling more Wiimotes and also getting the game license fees from Apple. From Apple's perspective, it wants to invest in strengthening the gaming options on the Mac, since that's one of the big knocks against the Mac. By associating the Apple with Nintendo, Apple flips that whole equation around and all of a sudden can brand itself as the "fun" computer fulfilling all of your digital entertainment needs: movies, music, *and* gaming!

milatchi
Dec 8, 2006, 09:11 AM
Minigames for use on the iPod and iTV is fine, but making a game console and going into that industry is stupid. Console Gaming is already cutthroat and over capacity. Three's a crowd, four is suicide.

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2006, 09:20 AM
Not interested. I'll pass for several reasons. The biggest being that no doubt Jobs is guiding the project. I don't want that man anywhere near my gaming system.

SiliconAddict
Dec 8, 2006, 09:24 AM
I can't see Apple making this mistake again. The Pippin should have been great, the hardware was superior to Playstation. In the end it sold less than 10,000 units worldwide.



The problem is that Jobs may very well have a large enough ego to think that when the pippin was released it wasn't Jobs's Apple. I can do it right.

http://www.3dnews.ru/_imgdata/img/2006/12/06/34751.jpg

I just threw up in my mouth a little™

No kidding. That is the worst controller I've ever seen. Never mind that the d-pad isn't joined so going from one button to another is going to leave a void during gameplay but the tiny buttons. Egh. Scream so form over function which would kill a console in about 30 seconds.

dernhelm
Dec 8, 2006, 09:26 AM
This gaming "console" could be nothing more than a Mac mini (albeit enhanced with dedicated graphics, finally). Think about it. Someone has already found a way to use the Wiimote as a Bluetooth "controller" for the Mac. What if Apple were to license the Wiimote from Nintendo, not to mention the more popular Nintendo game titles? Apple could port the Nintendo games to OS X, or maybe somehow build an efficient emulation for the Wii (not sure how realistic that would be with all the 3D graphics though).


I hope not. I don't want some "merged" box that does gaming but also works like a Mac. Simply produce a game box that can interoperate via bluetooth, WiFi, regular old networking, or whatever, with all the macs in my house. This needs to be an iTV enhancement, and as far as I am concerned could be a relatively closed box. There's always the geek that'll crack it open, that's fine, but I don't see a need to have it be thought of as a computer.

Open up a "games" section at the iTMS, so you can simply download new games to the console as soon as they become available, and play them directly on it. Then you've got something.


This would be win-win for Nintendo and Apple, since Nintendo would make more money from selling more Wiimotes and also getting the game license fees from Apple. From Apple's perspective, it wants to invest in strengthening the gaming options on the Mac, since that's one of the big knocks against the Mac. By associating the Apple with Nintendo, Apple flips that whole equation around and all of a sudden can brand itself as the "fun" computer fulfilling all of your digital entertainment needs: movies, music, *and* gaming!


Definite win for Apple if something like this happened. Not so much for Nintendo, as it would eat into their console market. The few extra Wii-motes they sell won't make up for that. In order for this to work, Apple and Nintendo would have to enter into a joint development and marketing agreement. Nintendo would need to know that Apple won't just take their platform off in some direction that they don't want it to go. With a joint development agreement, they will split dev costs, get the best ideas of both companies, and in the end produce some consoles that inter-operate in ways that the companies simply couldn't pull off independently. Joint marketing would allow both Nintendo and Apple to sell the jointly developed work while both companies could maintain their own separate brand identities.

lmalave
Dec 8, 2006, 10:02 AM
I hope not. I don't want some "merged" box that does gaming but also works like a Mac. Simply produce a game box that can interoperate via bluetooth, WiFi, regular old networking, or whatever, with all the macs in my house. This needs to be an iTV enhancement, and as far as I am concerned could be a relatively closed box. There's always the geek that'll crack it open, that's fine, but I don't see a need to have it be thought of as a computer.

Open up a "games" section at the iTMS, so you can simply download new games to the console as soon as they become available, and play them directly on it. Then you've got something.

Umm...get a Wii, then :) The Wii is a completely self-contained dedicated gaming box that doesn't even *need* to interact with your Macs or any other computer in any way. I mean, what doesn't the Wii have that you are looking for? The ability to download and a full-fledged Wii game?

I am pointing out a simple way that Apple could strengthen the *Mac* brand as a gaming machine. That's one of the major knocks against Macs, so I think Apple would benefit most from finding a way to associate games with the Mac brand, rather than creating a totally new, non-Mac game console brand.


Definite win for Apple if something like this happened. Not so much for Nintendo, as it would eat into their console market. The few extra Wii-motes they sell won't make up for that. In order for this to work, Apple and Nintendo would have to enter into a joint development and marketing agreement. Nintendo would need to know that Apple won't just take their platform off in some direction that they don't want it to go. With a joint development agreement, they will split dev costs, get the best ideas of both companies, and in the end produce some consoles that inter-operate in ways that the companies simply couldn't pull off independently. Joint marketing would allow both Nintendo and Apple to sell the jointly developed work while both companies could maintain their own separate brand identities.

Hmmm...I think you better check your numbers :)
The really big moneymakers for Nintendo are in the Wii accessories and games. Sure, Nintendo is probably the only game company that actually makes a positive profit margin on its console, but even then the margins are just so much higher for the games and accessories.

I think the biggest barrier is actually that in the world of Gaming, Apple needs Nintendo more than Nintendo needs Apple. So I think you are right in saying the relationship would have to be deeper than just licensing.

Lynxpro
Dec 8, 2006, 01:26 PM
That iPlay looks like one of those small desktop office shredders...


Or a Labtec subwoofer.

dernhelm
Dec 8, 2006, 01:35 PM
Umm...get a Wii, then :) The Wii is a completely self-contained dedicated gaming box that doesn't even *need* to interact with your Macs or any other computer in any way. I mean, what doesn't the Wii have that you are looking for? The ability to download and a full-fledged Wii game?


I do own a Wii :)

So for what I'm looking for... Downloading the Wii games would be great. But in case you hadn't noticed, the Wii doesn't have a DVD drive. So accessing movies from another system, but shown through my home entertainment center (Wii Plus) would be great. I also can't use the Wii to display my iPhoto collection of slideshows or home movies, and having access to my iTiunes music would be a definite bonus as well.




Hmmm...I think you better check your numbers :)


"Umm, Hmm..." Stop mumbling please.... :rolleyes:


The really big moneymakers for Nintendo are in the Wii accessories and games. Sure, Nintendo is probably the only game company that actually makes a positive profit margin on its console, but even then the margins are just so much higher for the games and accessories.


I am well aware that no other game company besides Nintendo actually makes money on their consoles. I am also aware that game sales are what "drive" the industry (I don't think hardware accessories are all that profitable for anyone, but I am could easily be wrong on that). However, if half of the Nintendo-based consoles out there say "Apple" instead, there will be a name recognition problem that Nintendo would be very keen to avoid. And besides, why should Nintendo lose _any_ hardware sales to Apple? There is simply no good reason for them to do so. Nintendo is surviving because of brand recognition and loyalty - they would be stupid to dilute any of that.


I think the biggest barrier is actually that in the world of Gaming, Apple needs Nintendo more than Nintendo needs Apple. So I think you are right in saying the relationship would have to be deeper than just licensing.


Which is why Apple could not possibly successfully launch their own gaming console. Apple needs someone (Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft) to partner up with if they want to add console gaming to the list of things their "home entertainment center" could do. I'm just being realistic - there simply isn't enough in it for Nintendo to "team up" with Apple out of the goodness of their hearts. They need to get something in return, and a joint development/marketing agreement could possibly give them that. There may be many other things that give them that as well. This is just one thing.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 8, 2006, 01:43 PM
Apple has a gaming system being produced allready, its called a computer but apple has crippled most of them for sake of ProMac. And has ran off the developers with stuff like new OS's,PPC,lack of video cards and not marketing the gaming aspect of the Mac. Bring back the "Video Card" and get PC games running Native is all they have to do.........but thats not thinking different. Apple can only blame itself for this mess. Ironic to buy a Mac and have to install windblows to game.

gkarris
Dec 8, 2006, 01:52 PM
I do own a Wii :)

So for what I'm looking for... Downloading the Wii games would be great. But in case you hadn't noticed, the Wii doesn't have a DVD drive. So accessing movies from another system, but shown through my home entertainment center (Wii Plus) would be great. I also can't use the Wii to display my iPhoto collection of slideshows or home movies, and having access to my iTiunes music would be a definite bonus as well.


Wii has a DVD drive - the movie playing has been disabled for cost reasons.

All Nintendo has to do for Apple is remove the Gamecube ports, and let Apple put their own OS on there for iTunes and Mac access.... Nintendo may or may not let Apple's version play Wii games.

Panasonic made a DVD version of the Gamecube a while back, but was only available in Japan.

Here's the pic:

http://www.museo8bits.com/dvdgame.jpg

OdduWon
Dec 9, 2006, 03:14 AM
Apple could enter this market and succed, they have an edge. They are not a computer company trying to be a game company like M$. they are a computer company that is making it easier to play games. If you had an itv for instance. could you play a computer game streemed from a desktop on your big screen? if apple updated the mini they could really push to take pc gaming away from M$. But would need to make deals with game developers ,like they are doing in the ITMS, to get the content. If apple made a Xserve mini for gamers they could play, and compute from their big screens.

Itv could be the stepping stone into the pc game world.

the mac mini tower would be the greatest media device in the world.

eenu
Dec 9, 2006, 08:20 AM
sony and apple are with blueray.

Wrong. Apple has not yet decided which format it is going to side with.

it seems to me, that everyone gains from apple doing this. maybe the apple game system will be based on (SONY TECH) and based around the PS3 with more media center capabilities. gets a split sony apple name, both people end up as winners even ibm. ive thought of something like this for them for a while. like the apple version of the PS3.

Why would Sony want apple to make an add on media centre for their PS3? You not think the PS3 can incorporate that itself?

Sony and apple are both backing blueray right? this is another stepping stone for the format war. blueray on PS3 is BIG new for the blueray format. Sony really wants this. I think apple does too.
A

Nope and Nope! Apple is sitting on the fence as it rightly should do waiting to see which one goes the right way!

dernhelm
Dec 9, 2006, 01:47 PM
Wii has a DVD drive - the movie playing has been disabled for cost reasons.


Good point, I stand corrected. The drive is technically a DVD drive, but since it doesn't play off the shelf movie DVDs - for my purposes it isn't one.


All Nintendo has to do for Apple is remove the Gamecube ports, and let Apple put their own OS on there for iTunes and Mac access.... Nintendo may or may not let Apple's version play Wii games.


That's not what I would want at all. A Wii is an upgrade option to me because I know all the GameCube games we already own will work on it. Nintendo also made it more appealing, by allowing me to download relatively cheaply old N64 games to play on it. The wide breadth of games from old to very new are one of the things that make the device so appealing. If Apple actually did decide to work with them (and I don't think they will, but it makes for interesting conversation) then they need to _add_ to that portfolio of stuff the Wii can already do.


Panasonic made a DVD version of the Gamecube a while back, but was only available in Japan.

Here's the pic:

http://www.museo8bits.com/dvdgame.jpg

Very, very cool. Thanks for posting this. I got one of the original game cubes with the "digital" port out the back (I understand some followup units did not always contain that port). Of course it wasn't really digital (rather component video) but it still looks a million times better on my HD TV. The weird thing about that port, however, is that the component cables were only sold in Japan. I had to order the cable from Nintendo in Japan. But at any rate, it sure would have been nice if that unit also played DVDs.

I was bummed when I found out that the Wii had the same cable limitation. It could do component video, but you had to order the cables on line - and, of course, at a cost premium.

macmax77
Dec 9, 2006, 03:15 PM
what if Apple comes out with a device that clusters with your Computer and takes advantage of its power to make the most powerful game console out there?

Too Niche???

babyj
Dec 9, 2006, 03:26 PM
A link up between Apple and Nintendo to create a single iTV/Wii unit or something similar seems to good an opportunity for either of them to miss. There is absolutely no cross over between their products, Apple want the media side and Nintendo the game side - a match made in heaven.

Not sure about the hardware side being shared, I'd of thought it would make more sense for both of them to be squeezed into the same box. So the iTV could carry on doing its thing (eg recording TV) whilst you play games.

gregorsamsa
Dec 9, 2006, 07:36 PM
Apple has a gaming system being produced allready, its called a computer but apple has crippled most of them for sake of ProMac. And has ran off the developers with stuff like new OS's,PPC,lack of video cards and not marketing the gaming aspect of the Mac. Bring back the "Video Card" and get PC games running Native is all they have to do.........but thats not thinking different. Apple can only blame itself for this mess. Ironic to buy a Mac and have to install windblows to game.

Wholly agree! Adding token gaming aspects to Apple's iTV is unlikely to figure significantly in how well it sells. Ditto introducing gaming on the iPod...it sells as well as it does because of what it already does best: music downloads, etc.

Meanwhile, Apple continues to lose many potential gaming switchers largely because of integrated graphics in most of their consumer Macs. Frankly, I find Apple's current attitude to gaming bordering on arrogance.

l'll be buying a gaming-enabled computer next year & would like it to be another Mac (to add to my iBook), but, being on a budget, I feel I'm being forced to consider an upgradable PC. It almost makes me angry.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 9, 2006, 09:17 PM
The new Mac commercials are kind of a joke, they want to paint the PC as all business and the Mac as all fun but the truth is just the opposite, gaming on Macs is stale almost extinct without Bootcamp & XP and I dont think they make a TV card to go into any Mac:confused: all external stuff and it cost 5-10 times what tv tuners do on Pcs. Apple has some serious problems and spinning the truth in commercials isnt going to solve it. I mean really how many times can you play with your photo's?

AppliedVisual
Dec 9, 2006, 09:27 PM
Frankly, I find Apple's current attitude to gaming bordering on arrogance.

More like ignorance...

l'll be buying a gaming-enabled computer next year & would like it to be another Mac (to add to my iBook), but, being on a budget, I feel I'm being forced to consider an upgradable PC. It almost makes me angry.

It's come up in several of the Mac Pro threads before, but Apple has a huge gap between the iMac and the Mac Pro that needs to be filled. They need a smaller tower/desktop system positioned here (heck, bring back something like the Cube). It needs a single optical drive bay, single CPU, 3xPCI-E slots would be good - make at least two of them handle the full 16 lane bandwidth and offer some good video cards - even multicard SLI / Crossfire type configurations, 2 to 3 internal HDD bays too...

I know plenty of people who would jump all over a single quad-core system w/4GB and a top notch video configuration. Apple's current marketing approach where there's hardly any difference in price between a fully loaded 24" iMac and a relatively bottom-end Mac Pro is not good justification for the huge gap in actual hardware options in between. Apple is dropping the ball here bigtime and I really don't think they see it. ...And such a system doesn't need to only offer the best CPU and video options either. There's plenty of people who don't need a Mac Pro and yet an iMac doesn't quite fit their needs either. Someone who uses their system almost entirely for Photoshop would be served well with a single quad-core CPU config and a mid-range video card for about $1500~$1800 and they may want to hook it up to a 30" display... The iMac doesn't work and the Mac Pro is overkill and $1K or so more than they want/need to spend to get what they can use.

rd001
Dec 9, 2006, 09:44 PM
It's come up in several of the Mac Pro threads before, but Apple has a huge gap between the iMac and the Mac Pro that needs to be filled. They need a smaller tower/desktop system positioned here (heck, bring back something like the Cube)... 2 to 3 internal HDD bays too... The iMac doesn't work and the Mac Pro is overkill and $1K or so more than they want/need to spend to get what they can use.
I agree. But having reviewed how steadfastly Apple clings to the iMac vs. PowerMac/MacPro lineup, introducing only the Mini as a switcher machine, I concluded there will be no such machine any time soon. There are absolutely no rumors that they are producing one.

In fact, they could produce single Xeon CPU with dual or quad cores and still be at or under the $2K price on a Mac Pro, leaving a second CPU socket empty like Dell does so you can add a second CPU later. Apple just doesn't want to do that. I think they want a pro machine with multi-CPU multi-core architecture to create a market and development expertise for the future. So Compressor and some others can use all the cores now but, for the future, they will make Logic and Final Cut and others more fully utilize the multi-core architecture. Multithreaded OpenGL and how they use the MacPro for a testbed for it is a sample of their thinking. I look for other pro apps to incorporate background rendering and previewing much more fully, probably around the time that Leopard comes out.

So as someone who bought a Mini PPC 1.42 as a switcher a year and a half ago, I decided to buy a 2.66 Mac Pro because there will be no medium tower option any time soon. It'll be here next week. So Apple didn't give me what I wanted. But they still sold me a workstation class machine, the first I've bought in over a decade.

penter
Dec 9, 2006, 09:58 PM
i voted positive.

then i read the article.

then i voted negative.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 9, 2006, 10:04 PM
Democrat or Republican?:D

penter
Dec 9, 2006, 10:13 PM
Democrat or Republican?:D

lol I'm too young to know anything about that. I'd rather live my innocent life while i can.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 9, 2006, 10:16 PM
lol I'm too young to know anything about that. I'd rather live my innocent life while i can.
At least your voting, I dont think I have ever voted.....on a thread.

penter
Dec 9, 2006, 10:22 PM
At least your voting, I dont think I have ever voted.....on a thread.

good point. i guess that that's how it starts. you develop opinions on somewhat insignificant matters then you move on to the big game.

i still wont be able to join a republican or democratic party untill i bocome a citizen, so i dont have to worry about that for now.

Much Ado
Dec 10, 2006, 07:16 AM
Can you imagine the DRM that Apple would slap on to the 'downloadable games' mentioned earlier in the thread?

It would be goodbye to taking a game over to your mate's house, goodbye to second-hand selling on, etc.

Not for me.


(Although i would love to see Apple get in the way of the Big Three somehow, a games console seems a suicide move. But a media centre with gaming capabilities, possibly emulation, sounds like it just might have a chance.)

50548
Dec 10, 2006, 10:02 AM
those rumour threads that said the ipod was a stupid idea.

In a few years this thread will be brought up for comedic purposes, as apples game system will be uberpopular.

one of two things will happen:

1) apple has somethiing awesome up its sleeve, and it will rock.

2) apple buys nintendo. Its been said before because it makes so much sense.


I don't think Apple should enter this market with its own console...but the chance of buying Nintendo is there, really.

For those that think Nintendo is too expensive, it's just at 30 billion market cap...Apple's is at almost 80 billion.

A good stock-swap offer would do it for Nintendo...they will be dead soon anyway.

OdduWon
Dec 10, 2006, 05:42 PM
apple will be the first to create a pc game console. that is if they can bear to put a decent gpu in the thing. mac cube pro :rolleyes:

gregorsamsa
Dec 10, 2006, 06:03 PM
apple will be the first to create a pc game console. that is if they can bear to put a decent gpu in the thing. mac cube pro :rolleyes:

Though I presume your post to be tongue-in-cheek, still...wouldn't it be far simpler to just upgrade the consumer-priced Macs with dedicated graphics?

Looking at Sony's current problems with PS3 being over-priced, Nintendo's uncertain future until Wii's release & MS's continuing mega-losses with Xbox 360, I agree with those who think that Apple would be better off not entering this particular market. I think more gaming availability on Macs is a far better way to go.

OdduWon
Dec 10, 2006, 11:18 PM
Though I presume your post to be tongue-in-cheek, still...wouldn't it be far simpler to just upgrade the consumer-priced Macs with dedicated graphics?.... I agree with those who think that Apple would be better off not entering this particular market. I think more gaming availability on Macs is a far better way to go.

true this would be the easy option, but apple has a chance to create something really great here. They could not only bring a more accessibility and justification to online media, but they could bring pc games into the living room. If they had a double stack mini with a 256 gpu in it, it would still be apple elegantas well as being an effective as a game console. If this mac tower dream were to come true it would be well equiped enough to not have to rely on the fact that it will play games because it will be sterdy enough to handle any media you throw at it. It is surprising to me that M$ has not yet done this with the 360..... but then again they didn't even make the 360 backwards compatable:D . + they would loose money on selling xp and vista to gamers.
bottom line is apple is moving in to the livingroom, if games are to be played in the apple living room is yet to be seen.


also what is with these rumors(iphone, game console) making it to main stream news??? They are not even confirmed yet. seems that people are paying more attention to apple now. perhaps the Mac v PC commercials have sparked the interest.:D

uNext
Dec 10, 2006, 11:24 PM
360 Mega Losses? hmmm that was last year Microsoft is now making a 70..+ profit per 360.

Nintendo wii is a lot of fun and revolutionary with the wiimote, the ps3 nothing impressive the blue ray is not surprising me at all all the films are grainy (i have 1080p) nothing spectacular i have hd dvd and now thats what i call HIGH DEFINITION.

i turned my ps3 into a linux box/ multimedia hub.

i thought i would be playing the ps3 more but for some reason i lean towards the 360 more.

DaveyT5
Dec 10, 2006, 11:29 PM
what apple needs is a computer between Mac Pro and imac for gamers.
something like a 30" HD imac with better possessor,memory and especially graphics card than the 24" imac maybe even a Blueray/HDDVD drive. Would be a good fit with Bootcamp

penter
Dec 10, 2006, 11:42 PM
what apple needs is a computer between Mac Pro and imac for gamers.
something like a 30" HD imac with better possessor,memory and especially graphics card than the 24" imac maybe even a Blueray/HDDVD drive. Would be a good fit with Bootcamp

all the mac pro needs is a better price. all the imac needs is a better gpu.

AppliedVisual
Dec 11, 2006, 12:14 AM
all the mac pro needs is a better price. all the imac needs is a better gpu.

Both the iMac and Mac Pro need better graphics options. The x1900xt and fx4500 cards on the Mac Pro are stale and the the 4500 is way overpriced compared to what the PC version is selling for... And I mean way overpriced even considering what Apple usually charges as a premium.

The Mac Pro is priced pretty competitively for what it is... Maybe they should offer a config with only 1 CPU installed. OTOH, it still would be nice to see a consumer mid-tower with nice GPU options and using standard DDR2 DIMM memory instead of the insanely expensive FB-DIMMs, which are of little use to most consumers, even gamers.

dernhelm
Dec 11, 2006, 07:03 AM
I know plenty of people who would jump all over a single quad-core system w/4GB and a top notch video configuration.

W00t! Another vote for an Apple-designed hard-core gamer machine. Two graphics slots, easily upgraded. Add in mucho RAM capacity, and fast hard disks (10000 RPM or better). Work with vendor(s) to build in super-fast wireless mouse and keyboard (BT is fine, but not quite good enough for gamers).

I keep saying it too - this is what they need to round out their lineup. I just don't think we'll ever see it.

stryfe137
Dec 12, 2006, 11:59 AM
hey everybody what's up! this is my first post and i have an idea on this topic.

instead of apple making a all-out console all they have to do is add a graphics card option to the mac mini, macbook, and imac. here are my reasons why:

1.Consoles are starting to mimic computers- although the ps3 is attempting their best at this, it is still not a computer. there is no better os than tiger and no better computer made than apple.

2. Price- with the exorbitant price of the ps3, apple can make a deal with ati or nvidia to mass market graphics cards and offer it as an $100-$150 option for the macbook, imac, and mac mini. this way a mac mini can cost a tad more than the ps3 but still be a full-fledged computer. parents would feel a lot easier letting go of their hard earned money if they knew their child was getting an educational tool along with a console. at the same point a macbook could become a portable gaming console. the specs of the imac, mini, and macbook are so similar that one could easily develop a game for all three.

3. Graphics Card- Give the mini, imac, and macbook the same graphics card option(ie: ati x1600). send a mandate out to all developers that they are to develop for the specs of the original series of computers released for a 5 yr. span (avg. life for a console and computer). allow the mac pro and the macbook pro to get annually upgraded graphics card for professional purposes and so if there is a ultra high end game on windows they would like to play, they could always use boot camp.


4. Mac OS is in a way a closed system- Since only a Mac can run OS X, game
developers can design solely for that OS have less of a worry about piracy.


5. iTunes- They can sell some downloadable games and sell episodic content. it can be the one stop shop for all your entertainment purposes and hardware/software concerns.

6.iPhone- allow the same features the 360 has with windows mobile on the iphone

7.Design & Marketing- Their computers already look the best and it could be the first portable home video game console with the macbook. goodbye psp!

8.Minimal Risk- introducing a whole new gaming console is too much of a big risk to apple. they would not be losing much if they just ordered a huge shipment of graphic cards from a manufacturer. and besides how many of you
would love to upgrade your graphics card for $150?

9. Development Cost- since most consoles are always trying to make their money back from the system on game prices, apple could avoid this pitfall as it allows them not develop any console at all. because of this, game prices will be cheaper.

10. Best of All Worlds- because apple is both great at hardware and software, it is a major advantage that it has over the big three. the big three have made sub-par attempts at making their console into a media center or computer. apple has already done the hard part, all they would need is the graphics card.

mlambert890
Dec 12, 2006, 10:12 PM
Let's see:

Old XBox: a Pentium 3 black ugly box. XBox 360: A PowerPC white slim box with multimedia (sounds familiar?)

Old Gamecube: Small square box with small square discs, top loading. Wii: shinny white small square box with standard discs, slot loading (sounds familiar?)

Sony PS3: Cutting edge technology, icon driven GUI (sounds familiar?)

People say that Apple can't compete yet a lot of the success of the game console companies came from Apple innovations...

Icon driven GUI? Sounds like the Xerox PARC to me. Really. This is just a crazy statement. I realize I'm in the Temple of Apple here, so I usually just kind of observe, but this thread is just out in the twilight zone.

I know most Apple super fanatics imagine a world where everything is produced and sold by Apple and Apple is given credit for everything from penicillin to cold fusion, but come on. Building something in a white box somehow now means you "copied Apple"? And "multimedia" is now the exclusive right of Apple? Despite the fact that MP3 and MP3 players existed well before the iPod and digital audio and video existed (on the PC) before QuickTime was released in 1992? And slot loading?! Slot loading is an "Apple innovation" despite the fact that Apple just buys drives from the OEM like everyone else?

To be honest (and I'm an Apple fan, I'm just ALSO a fan of OTHER tech as well) Apple has had just about ZERO contribution to the game industry outside of the amazingly ill conceived Pippin which was voted one of the worst pieces of hardware ever.

Can you people not just conceed that there are certain areas where maybe OTHER folks are doing something interesting? Jeez what an insult to Nintendo who was resurrecting the game industry while Apple was still cranking out 16 color Apple ][e's

Apple excels at industrial design, marketing and packaging. THATS where their expertise lies. OSX is a great implementation of BSD, granted, and Apple PCs have always been nicely integrated (bit easier when you own the entire stack), but there are other technology companies doing good, innovative, work also - especially in the videogame space.

mlambert890
Dec 12, 2006, 10:12 PM
Let's see:

Old XBox: a Pentium 3 black ugly box. XBox 360: A PowerPC white slim box with multimedia (sounds familiar?)

Old Gamecube: Small square box with small square discs, top loading. Wii: shinny white small square box with standard discs, slot loading (sounds familiar?)

Sony PS3: Cutting edge technology, icon driven GUI (sounds familiar?)

People say that Apple can't compete yet a lot of the success of the game console companies came from Apple innovations...

Icon driven GUI? Sounds like the Xerox PARC to me. Really. This is just a crazy statement. I realize I'm in the Temple of Apple here, so I usually just kind of observe, but this thread is just out in the twilight zone.

I know most Apple super fanatics imagine a world where everything is produced and sold by Apple and Apple is given credit for everything from penicillin to cold fusion, but come on. Building something in a white box somehow now means you "copied Apple"? And "multimedia" is now the exclusive right of Apple? Despite the fact that MP3 and MP3 players existed well before the iPod and digital audio and video existed (on the PC) before QuickTime was released in 1992? And slot loading?! Slot loading is an "Apple innovation" despite the fact that Apple just buys drives from the OEM like everyone else?

To be honest (and I'm an Apple fan, I'm just ALSO a fan of OTHER tech as well) Apple has had just about ZERO contribution to the game industry outside of the amazingly ill conceived Pippin which was voted one of the worst pieces of hardware ever.

Can you people not just conceed that there are certain areas where maybe OTHER folks are doing something interesting? Jeez what an insult to Nintendo who was resurrecting the game industry while Apple was still cranking out 16 color Apple ][e's

Apple excels at industrial design, marketing and packaging. THATS where their expertise lies. OSX is a great implementation of BSD, granted, and Apple PCs have always been nicely integrated (bit easier when you own the entire stack), but there are other technology companies doing good, innovative, work also - especially in the videogame space.

BuzWeaver
Dec 13, 2006, 09:15 PM
I'd like to see them get more involved in regular gaming, FPS's and MMO's for example. The Mac Pro offers some amazing horse power that would be ideal for a high-end gamer like me, however most games are very, very, PC oriented.