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MacRumors
Dec 15, 2006, 08:12 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ThinkSecret is chiming in (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0612iphone.html) on the recent flurry of iPhone rumors and speculation, stating that the rumored device will be a GSM/EDGE only device. While this information contrasts with a recent rumor put forth by Kevin Rose (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/12/20061203094854.shtml) on popular tech podcast Diggnation, it does seem to lie more in line with Apple's hiring practices. Apple has been known to have been courting EDGE engineers (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/01/20060120030030.shtml), but we aren't currently aware of Apple courting CDMA engineers.

However, ThinkSecret claims that Apple is still courting multiple GSM wireless carriers across North America, Europe, and Asia. Apple is also said to be asking for carriers to NOT subsidize the price of the phone. GSM carriers in North America include Cingular and T-Mobile.

A release date for the phone is still said to be somewhat variable.

Meanwhile, it is growing increasingly unlikely that Apple will be ready to ship the iPhone at or around Macworld Expo San Francisco in January, despite word that some suppliers have already started delivering components for the iPhone to manufacturing. Some sources have also gone so far as to suggest that even an announcement may elude Expo, especially if it appears the phone will not be available in sufficient quantities until the second quarter. It should be noted that announcement and release dates are frequently subject to change, however, and neither is locked in at this point.



Motley
Dec 15, 2006, 08:15 AM
Ah I love rumors. Announcement on Monday, no announcement at the expo in January, does it even exist!

The only reason I look forward to an apple phone would be a good user interface and non crippled easy to use features.

MacinDoc
Dec 15, 2006, 08:15 AM
This from ThinkSecret, so it must be true - NOT!

drewpage
Dec 15, 2006, 08:20 AM
In a word, no. I just bought a Sony W310i Walkman phone and it works great for music, with its 1 GB Memory Stick Micro. It even works with my mac. I just plug it in and drag MP3s to it in Finder. I find it hard to believe people will pay $300-600 for an Apple iPhone WITH a plan. Apple is asking too much for the carriers not to subsidize it. I believe Steve Jobs has finally fallen off his rocker.

MattyMac
Dec 15, 2006, 08:20 AM
Ah I love rumors. Announcement on Monday, no announcement at the expo in January, does it even exist!

The only reason I look forward to an apple phone would be a good user interface and non crippled easy to use features.

Ahhh I love the Rumors too!

Le Big Mac
Dec 15, 2006, 08:21 AM
I love the idea of not subsidizing the phone . . .

I assume that means that Apple doesn't want to let any carrier "customize" the interface to that carrier. At that point, why not just sell it in the Apple store and tell people it's unlocked and all they need is their current SIM card?

ricksbrain
Dec 15, 2006, 08:21 AM
MacDailyNews has some info about Skyworks and Broadcom. Here's a potentially related article...

http://www.govtech.net/digitalcommunities/story.php?id=101228

MacBoobsPro
Dec 15, 2006, 08:28 AM
I love the idea of not subsidizing the phone . . .

I assume that means that Apple doesn't want to let any carrier "customize" the interface to that carrier. At that point, why not just sell it in the Apple store and tell people it's unlocked and all they need is their current SIM card?

Thats what i want to hear :D

Apple have total control over the phone and it is open to anyone to use it.

You could even get a new phone on contract for free from say T-Mobile stick the sim card in the iPhone and sell the brand new phone from T-Mobile. Therefore 'subsidising' the fone without penalty to anyone but the makers of crap phones :D

longofest
Dec 15, 2006, 08:32 AM
Despite ThinkSecret's recent track record, this is actually one of the more well-rounded rumors that has come out. As much as I'd like there to be a CDMA version (since I'm a Verizon customer), there simply isn't any evidence that Apple has the manpower to engineer such a phone, so rumors that state that it would work as a CDMA phone are a little bit more iffy than rumors that state GSM-only.

emotion
Dec 15, 2006, 08:36 AM
Apple is also said to be asking for carriers to NOT subsidize the price of the phone.

This makes sense only if the device is affordable (I mean ipod affordable, not phone affordable as most people see this as free->50 quid). From all accounts the hardware spec is fairly modest (no 3G, no HSDPA data access, low pixel count camera), and Apple seem to be in the process of making millions of these things. All consistent with low-cost.

I think it's possible they'll sell this stand alone (unlocked and unsubsidized).

And if some of you people don't care why the hell would you read a link to this on a rumour site? Baffling.

PODshady
Dec 15, 2006, 08:38 AM
I will gladly wait 50 years for this phone to be released... knowing Apple it is going to be that good

joshysquashy
Dec 15, 2006, 08:39 AM
When I renewed my contract, I chose to keep my Razr V3 as it still worked and there were no better phones on the market, even 2 years after it was created!

O2 UK offered me £100 credit on my contract instead of a new phone, this could work for Apple:

Buy phone from apple store or a network, it costs say £150 or something. You choose a tariff and get given £100 credit on a low monthly tariff or £150 credit on a top of the range tariff. Therefore, you pay upfront for the device, but get the money back over the next few months.

What do you think? Apple's style is not pay monthly, its pay as you go, but pay monthly tends to end up better value.

danman
Dec 15, 2006, 08:40 AM
Forcing a network not to subsidise is insanity - here in the UK especially, we sign contracts for 12 to 18 months specifically to cover the cost of the phone, the price of which varies from nothing to perhaps £100 - ie mostly very little, and that is what we expect.

I'm assuming the Apple phone will be a design and usability revelation (hey, it's theirs to ****** up init), but would not be happy paying £250 for it where normally I would pay little or nothing.

emotion
Dec 15, 2006, 08:45 AM
Forcing a network not to subsidise is insanity - here in the UK especially, we sign contracts for 12 to 18 months specifically to cover the cost of the phone, the price of which varies from nothing to perhaps £100 - ie mostly very little, and that is what we expect.

I'm assuming the Apple phone will be a design and usability revelation (hey, it's theirs to ****** up init), but would not be happy paying £250 for it where normally I would pay little or nothing.


I hear what you're saying (and a lot of the US folk on here don't understand how phones are outside the US) but how much did you pay for your iPod?

Do you not think that 70 quid over the price of a 8GB nano is worth it for phone functionality too?

Convincing people to buy at that price who see the price of an se k800i as free might be tricky though.

failsafe1
Dec 15, 2006, 08:49 AM
Man I love a nice cell phone. I enjoy an unlocked GSM quad band that I can pop sim cards in from telestial and hit the road. But I can't justify the high price tag Apple may be asking if the price rumors turn out to be true. Here's to a fun Monday!!

chabig
Dec 15, 2006, 08:52 AM
...but we aren't currently aware of Apple courting CDMA (Verizon) or PCS (Sprint) engineers.

PCS is not a phone technology. There are no "PCS" engineers. Sprint's network is based on CDMA.

dan-o-mac
Dec 15, 2006, 08:53 AM
In a word, no. I just bought a Sony W310i Walkman phone and it works great for music, with its 1 GB Memory Stick Micro. It even works with my mac. I just plug it in and drag MP3s to it in Finder. I find it hard to believe people will pay $300-600 for an Apple iPhone WITH a plan. Apple is asking too much for the carriers not to subsidize it. I believe Steve Jobs has finally fallen off his rocker.

You should give this script a shot, it might be a better solution than dragging and dropping mp3's.

http://helmen.blogspot.com/2005/12/k750i-itunemywalkman.html

Hattig
Dec 15, 2006, 08:57 AM
Apple is also said to be asking for carriers to NOT subsidize the price of the phone.

Well that's all good for Apple, but I know that if I'm faced with a £30/month tariff with a subsidised phone from Nokia, etc, or the same £30/month tariff with a full priced Apple phone (of roughly equal specifications) I will be getting the subsidised phone.

I find it highly unlikely that the phone companies would reduce the price of the tariff to compensate for not subsidising the phone.

Maestro64
Dec 15, 2006, 09:00 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)


However, ThinkSecret claims that Apple is still courting multiple GSM wireless carriers across North America, Europe, and Asia. Apple is also said to be asking for carriers to NOT subsidize the price of the phone. GSM carriers in North America include Cingular and T-Mobile.

A release date for the phone is still said to be somewhat variable.

This make sense, if the phone company subsidizes the phone they could get too much volumn on the phone and not allow Apple to ease into to the market and see what if any problems exist. This fits with what I have said before, if Apple does have a phone they will slow roll it out to the market. With the other rumor of a high price point will limit the number of phones allowing Apple to collect some important information before going full production.

This said only the die hards apple people with money will buy and provide apple with some initial data on how it performing.

Manatee
Dec 15, 2006, 09:02 AM
I wish they'd just sell the thing unlocked. I hate that whole business with a perfectly good phone only being available through one carrier.

emotion
Dec 15, 2006, 09:02 AM
This said only the die hards apple people with money will buy and provide apple with some initial data on how it performing.


Are there 12 million of those people as per rumours?

I wish they'd just sell the thing unlocked. I hate that whole business with a perfectly good phone only being available through one carrier.

I want it to cost the same as a k800i. ie. 25 quid a month and free. How likely this is is another thing but that is what Apple are competing with.

Maestro64
Dec 15, 2006, 09:05 AM
PCS is not a phone technology. There are no "PCS" engineers. Sprint's network is based on CDMA.

There are PCS engineers, Motorola has a whole group of them in San Deigo.

Are there 12 million of those people as per rumours?

Not 12 million at a price point of $600, my guess is they would sell about million in the first six months, and then come out with gen 2 and lower price and begin shipping more. Look at the Trio as an example. Palm had large numbers of faithfuls and the Trio slowly ramped up and the price dropped over time.

As we all know most people do not buy there cell phones they try and get them free if they can and will not replace them until the contract is up. You have to ask yourself how many people are coming off contract in the next 6 months who are willing to pay big$ to replace their phone or just will replace the phone becuase it is Apple.

emotion
Dec 15, 2006, 09:18 AM
Not 12 million at a price point of $600, my guess is they would sell about million in the first six months, and then come out with gen 2 and lower price and begin shipping more. Look at the Trio as an example. Palm had large numbers of faithfuls and the Trio slowly ramped up and the price dropped over time.

As we all know most people do not buy there cell phones they try and get them free if they can and will not replace them until the contract is up. You have to ask yourself how many people are coming off contract in the next 6 months who are willing to pay big$ to replace their phone or just will replace the phone becuase it is Apple.

Plausible. I dunno though Apple's move into this market is so they don't get left behind by the competition (Nokia/SE etc). At that slow pace they'll still miss out on the market share they need. ipod sales will dwindle as people want pmp devices with communication abilities and apple's market share falls below what it has today.

How close I am with any of that is debatable but Apple must be viewing things in that way. This market is about to become fiercely competitive and it needs a bold move by Apple to gain the upper hand.

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 09:35 AM
Horrible news, no CDMA support :mad:. I won't be getting an iphone for sure now. FYI no 3G support means this phone will be crap for web browsing.

emotion
Dec 15, 2006, 09:38 AM
Horrible news, no CDMA support :mad:. I won't be getting an iphone for sure now. FYI no 3G support means this phone will be crap for web browsing.

Don't worry this isn't news, just another rumour (Think Secret at that).

someguy
Dec 15, 2006, 09:41 AM
If these rumors are true, I won't be buying an iPhone.

What's the use? Spend $500.. $600 even on an Apple phone that is only marginally better than the phones I can get for free or $25 on eBay?

I like Apple products, but not that much.

dayton
Dec 15, 2006, 09:41 AM
There are PCS engineers, Motorola has a whole group of them in San Deigo.

Yeah, PCS refers to a network that operates on the 1900-mhz radio band. CDMA, GSM, etc. refer to network technologies that can operate in the PCS frequency. PCS is usually distinguished from "cellular" which operates in the ~800-~850 MHz range.

If it is GSM, I hope the phone is quad-band so that it can be used pretty much anywhere in the world. Although, I'd really prefer a true 3G phone.

yg17
Dec 15, 2006, 09:46 AM
There probably won't ever be CDMA support because CDMA blows.

Apple's probably planning on selling these in Apple stores. Well, can't do that with CDMA since your carrier has to activate it, and from what I've heard, the CDMA carriers won't activate 3rd party phones. Which means if Apple did do a CDMA version, companies like Verizion would cripple the thing which isn't what Apple wants.

SilvorX
Dec 15, 2006, 09:49 AM
I love the idea of not subsidizing the phone . . .

I assume that means that Apple doesn't want to let any carrier "customize" the interface to that carrier. At that point, why not just sell it in the Apple store and tell people it's unlocked and all they need is their current SIM card?

If the phone is going to be $400+ like one of the many rumour articles speculated yesterday, I better not be getting a freaking 3 year contract (that's the most common type of contract in Canada) for paying for an unsubsidized phone, if I was to pay for the phone.

PCS is not a phone technology. There are no "PCS" engineers. Sprint's network is based on CDMA.
exactlement!

but we aren't currently aware of Apple courting CDMA (Verizon) or PCS (Sprint) engineers.
I know quite a few of us aren't cellphone experts here but PCS is just the brand name (Sprint PCS) for Sprint, it uses CDMA/EV-DO technology like Verizon, there's nothing really that different between the two.


Something doesn't sit with me right about the whole CDMA thing, I can't recall a time in either Verizon or Sprint's life (or Telus in Canada) where you could just buy an "unlocked" phone and put it on their network, CDMA phones are tied to the network because of their serial numbers, someone can try to put a phone on a competitor's network but usually it fails, I've tried myself and I was a customer service rep who had to do all that sort of BS, didn't work. If a CDMA version was to be released, either carrier could just say "no", or both of them will release it, it's near impossible to sell the CDMA version in an Apple Store for the whole reason of the serial number being tied to the network, however if Apple was to sell models tied to specific networks, then that would be different!

There are PCS engineers, Motorola has a whole group of them in San Deigo.
That's iDen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEN) I believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Communications_Service it's pre-CDMA it looks like

technocoy
Dec 15, 2006, 09:52 AM
apple doesn't want other providers to subsidize because they want to make it more appealing for them to be on their own network that will be launched via piggyback on cingular's infrastructure. Apple will subsidize on their network, but wants it to at least be compatible with other carriers.

They know that us mac nuts will buy it and be their guinea pigs for the network's features which will surely include pretty robust data features so that it works hand in hand with your computer, as well as downloading songs on the fly.

not sure.. there are still to many variations in the rumors to pin anything down, but i haven't seen this big of a frenzy on the phone before, so my gut reaction is that it IS coming in the next few weeks, we just know know enough to pin things down yet.

it's exciting none-the-less... i mean, CAN apple recreate the success of the iPod? even on a smaller scale? we'll see!

Pressure
Dec 15, 2006, 09:55 AM
I don't see why people are obsessed with the US market and tariffs etc.

You should all start thinking globally. Can they sell 12 million worldwide? Even at a pretty high price? Why not, we are 6 billion humans on this little rock.

I am feeling confident that Apple will release a phone that sets the standard and for everyone else to replicate in some manner.

Art and design are becoming a lot more important for the entire western world and it have become a question of life style. How do you want other people to perceive you..

birdsong
Dec 15, 2006, 09:56 AM
There probably won't ever be CDMA support because CDMA blows.

Apple's probably planning on selling these in Apple stores. Well, can't do that with CDMA since your carrier has to activate it, and from what I've heard, the CDMA carriers won't activate 3rd party phones. Which means if Apple did do a CDMA version, companies like Verizion would cripple the thing which isn't what Apple wants.

Please provide technical reasons why CDMA is bad. Something tells me you really don't know anything about it. If you don't like the carriers which provide CDMA access, that's one thing, but state it as such.

Technically, CDMA is pretty neat, employing orthogonal coding to distinguish the different senders in a given channel. It's a bit more novel than the TDMA approach. It also has a simple approach to "soft handoff" (a very difficult problem in communications engineering). In addition, CDMA has better spectral efficiency than TDMA (and GSM is TDMA).

Functionally speaking, current CDMA networks in the US have faster data rates than GSM networks. That's a plus in my book.

micahy2k
Dec 15, 2006, 09:56 AM
I might be looking at this wrong but I saw a new music video for Evanescene on iTunes that had a wierd screen size. It seemed like it is even widerscreen than normal. It is the song "lithium". It seems like it could be the size of the screen on the iPhone. Everyone look and tell me what you think. Kinda odd.

puckhead193
Dec 15, 2006, 10:00 AM
However, ThinkSecret claims that Apple is still courting multiple GSM wireless carriers across North America, Europe, and Asia. Apple is also said to be asking for carriers to NOT subsidize the price of the phone. GSM carriers in North America include Cingular and T-Mobile.


that is going to be one expensive phone that as of now only plays music

Le Big Mac
Dec 15, 2006, 10:01 AM
Convincing people to buy at that price who see the price of an se k800i as free might be tricky though.

That's going to be the problem. 1) Americans are used to subsidized/cheap phones as part of a plan. 2) The plans are all priced to assume recovery of the subsidy given for phones. It's not like the price goes down after the contract is over.

Of course, this could be apple posturing to make sure they have complete control. Release the phone unlocked, and let people who really want it buy it full price, then sign deals with phone cos. whereby they subsidize it. By rolling it out unlocked and untouched by cingular/tmobile, etc., they can show that it's best the way it is. Then cingular and tmobile are stuck with the phone the way apple has done it, and at most can put some goofy splat label on it somewhere.

asphalt-proof
Dec 15, 2006, 10:01 AM
So many conflicting rumors in such a short time. Methinks Apple may be seeding bad info in an effort ot discover where the potential leaks are. Nawww that's way too Machivellian. Gizmodo would be crazy to post his 'guarantee' if he even thought the info was a bit shady. It would be like Arn guarantee that the iPhone is coming out on Monday and it not panning out. He/the site would never live it down. Too much credibility is at stake. Especially with such a high profile product like the iPhone. However, this information sounds very credible as well and the details sound very Apple-esque.

I think I am finally starting to feel iPhone-rumor burnout. I know some here had this months ago but I am in the market for a new phone and have been hanging on each new morsel. No more. I'll wait for Monday then I have to buy a new phone. My Treo just gave it up and is beyond resusitation.

Rychiar
Dec 15, 2006, 10:10 AM
i see how sim cards are def useful but CDMA and verizon are def the best in the US, my calls are all crystal clear, never dropped and i get service allover. my friends with Cingular have all sorts of issues. Plus GSM phones make all household electronics make a weird buzz noise when a call comes in (tv's, radios, etc) whereas CDMA causes no such interference. I wish there was somethin new and global and not tied to some damn carrier here. Cingulars prices are insane, especially for data and txt plans which arent even unlimited in network:mad:

Stridder44
Dec 15, 2006, 10:12 AM
In a word, no. I just bought a Sony W310i Walkman phone and it works great for music, with its 1 GB Memory Stick Micro. It even works with my mac. I just plug it in and drag MP3s to it in Finder. I find it hard to believe people will pay $300-600 for an Apple iPhone WITH a plan. Apple is asking too much for the carriers not to subsidize it. I believe Steve Jobs has finally fallen off his rocker.


SonyEricsson phones rock my face off. I have one myself and it's been nothing but awesome. A MILLION times better than the crappy RAZRs.



i see how sim cards are def useful but CDMA and verizon are def the best in the US, my calls are all crystal clear, never dropped and i get service allover. my friends with Cingular have all sorts of issues. Plus GSM phones make all household electronics make a weird buzz noise when a call comes in (tv's, radios, etc) whereas CDMA causes no such interference. I wish there was somethin new and global and not tied to some damn carrier here. Cingulars prices are insane, especially for data and txt plans which arent even unlimited in network:mad:


That reminded me of this (http://verizonfails.ytmnd.com/) :p

TheNipponese
Dec 15, 2006, 10:13 AM
Without UMTS, 3G, or any WCDMA features, this phone is garbage to me. That is a realy disappointing speculation.

dayton
Dec 15, 2006, 10:17 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Communications_Service it's pre-CDMA it looks like

You might want to read the first two lines from that page.

Personal Communications Service or PCS is the name for the 1900-MHz radio band used for digital mobile phone services in Canada and the United States. Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), GSM, and D-AMPS systems can be used on PCS frequencies.

TheNipponese
Dec 15, 2006, 10:17 AM
Please provide technical reasons why CDMA is bad. Something tells me you really don't know anything about it. If you don't like the carriers which provide CDMA access, that's one thing, but state it as such.

Technically, CDMA is pretty neat, employing orthogonal coding to distinguish the different senders in a given channel. It's a bit more novel than the TDMA approach. It also has a simple approach to "soft handoff" (a very difficult problem in communications engineering). In addition, CDMA has better spectral efficiency than TDMA (and GSM is TDMA).

Functionally speaking, current CDMA networks in the US have faster data rates than GSM networks. That's a plus in my book.

Seriously, what the hell is the difference anymore (except that you can use GSM phones to roam on a lot more international carriers). Both the GSM and CDMA2000 protocols are slow as ****. I would have even been happy with EV1x-DO...

sdhalpern
Dec 15, 2006, 10:23 AM
no verizon? bad move apple... bad move.

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 10:25 AM
i see how sim cards are def useful but CDMA and verizon are def the best in the US, my calls are all crystal clear, never dropped and i get service allover. my friends with Cingular have all sorts of issues. Plus GSM phones make all household electronics make a weird buzz noise when a call comes in (tv's, radios, etc) whereas CDMA causes no such interference. I wish there was somethin new and global and not tied to some damn carrier here. Cingulars prices are insane, especially for data and txt plans which arent even unlimited in network:mad:

I beg to differ. I was a Verizon customer for years until recently. Two reasons why I left. One, Verizon's business tactics. As someone who bought the Motorola V710 a while ago, I was led to believe the Bluetooth OBEX features would be fully operational when I spent $500 dollars. Wrong. Verizon admitted publicly in a press release that it had the right to cripple those features in order to charge customers download fees for pictures and ringtone and even contacts. My Mac should be able to do all that with a compliant unit. Verizon's attitude is screw the customer, let's make money. In the end, Verizon was sued by a law firm representing hundreds of customers in California and LOST. When I upgraded to the RAZR v3c, the first batch was fully operational, the one I had. However, Verizon quickly rectified that with firmware updates .03 and .04, crippling the OBEX again. I refused to upgrade my firmware out of principle, that is an inexcusable business tactic. Cingular, t-Mobile, et al do not cripple their phones in any way in order to penny pinch their customers.

Second, Verizon kept screwing up my bills. As I went over my text messaging allowance I phoned customer service to increase my monthly limit. Three times they didn't fully process it and three times my bills were 300-400 dollars a month. Apparently the customer isn't always right in Verizon's mind.

After 7+ years of loyalty, Cingular now has my business. No crippling the phones, I can download whatever I want to and from my phone. SIM cards rock, I can switch to any unlocked or Cingular phone in a second. In Europe? No problem. Phone fully functions. Customer service is excellent and not one dropped call. Verizon needs to seriously re-examine their practices and update their outdated CDMA system.

Maestro64
Dec 15, 2006, 10:25 AM
There probably won't ever be CDMA support because CDMA blows.

Apple's probably planning on selling these in Apple stores. Well, can't do that with CDMA since your carrier has to activate it, and from what I've heard, the CDMA carriers won't activate 3rd party phones. Which means if Apple did do a CDMA version, companies like Verizion would cripple the thing which isn't what Apple wants.

This is true, Verizion does not want unrestricted phones on their network, they simply want you to pay for everything. However, if you have an activated SIM card you can plug it into another phone. Verizon has been refusing to activitate a phone if it does not support E911 services like gps location. The question will be is if the Apple phone has the GPS chip set as well.

Maestro64
Dec 15, 2006, 10:30 AM
That's iDen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEN) I believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Communications_Service it's pre-CDMA it looks like

No iden products are done in the chiago area, even thou Verizon and Sprint are CDMA they both work differently. In order to make CDMA phone work with sprints networks other things need to be done. Thus the reason you pointed out above a Sprint CDMA phone can not be activitated on Verizon. Which is very different than GSM where you can move a phone from one GSM provider to another by simply changing SIM cards.

longofest
Dec 15, 2006, 10:33 AM
Thanks everyone who chimed in on the PCS/CDMA debate. I updated the article, as it does look like PCS is a superset of a few different technologies, and Sprint currently uses CDMA for their PCS network. Of course, other networks use GSM on their PCS networks, so it PCS does not equate to CDMA.

I agree with the folks that say that its a bummer that Apple doesn't seem to be making a CDMA version of the phone (at least at first). But, lets see... maybe Kevin will be right after all...

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 10:35 AM
Please provide technical reasons why CDMA is bad. Something tells me you really don't know anything about it. If you don't like the carriers which provide CDMA access, that's one thing, but state it as such.

Technically, CDMA is pretty neat, employing orthogonal coding to distinguish the different senders in a given channel. It's a bit more novel than the TDMA approach. It also has a simple approach to "soft handoff" (a very difficult problem in communications engineering). In addition, CDMA has better spectral efficiency than TDMA (and GSM is TDMA).

Functionally speaking, current CDMA networks in the US have faster data rates than GSM networks. That's a plus in my book.

If you travel internationally on a regular basis, or if you need to use your phone anywhere outside of North America, good luck on a CDMA network. Cingular already has 3G phones (such as LG's newest 3G model) that out perform Verizon's 3G units. CDMA is NOT faster, in fact it is proving to be slower. The only reason Verizon MAY have better sound quality is due to it's aggressive tactics in acquiring more towers. In fact, Verizon has faced numerous lawsuits alleging subpar business tactics in acquiring towers in many area's of the U.S. Let's not forget Verizon's business tactics in crippling the OBEX in all their phones, forcing customers to pay for services such as "Get It Now" to download ringtones and pics (that also expire after certain periods). Their customer service ratings are dropping almost daily. If Verizon doesn't get over themselves and learn to "play nice", I don't see much good in their future.

gugy
Dec 15, 2006, 10:41 AM
no verizon? bad move apple... bad move.

if this rumor is true is interesting why Apple would leave so many millions of verizon and sprint subscribers behind.
I wonder with these same folks will become the "switch" iPhone advertising campaign.
We'll see. My Verizon is OK, I hope Cingular is not the carrier. T-Mobile maybe would make me "switch".
Or another possibility will be Apple with their own network, so we all can tell the cell carriers to go to hell!:eek:

BenRoethig
Dec 15, 2006, 10:43 AM
I don't see why people are obsessed with the US market and tariffs etc.

You should all start thinking globally. Can they sell 12 million worldwide? Even at a pretty high price? Why not, we are 6 billion humans on this little rock.

I am feeling confident that Apple will release a phone that sets the standard and for everyone else to replicate in some manner.

Art and design are becoming a lot more important for the entire western world and it have become a question of life style. How do you want other people to perceive you..

It might have something to do with the U.S. being Apple's home and highest sales market. Cut off roughly half the market which is using CMDA for its better coverage and Apple is making drastically less money.

chrisgeleven
Dec 15, 2006, 10:43 AM
no verizon? bad move apple... bad move.

Agreed. Where I live (New Hampshire), Verizon is the only reliable option for cell service in most parts of the state.

Cingular in most areas where I go is roaming at best. T-Mobile has a good 60+ mile coverage hole from Concord, NH to Lebanon, NH on I-89, which is completely unacceptable for me. Sprint has pretty decent coverage, but I heard horror stories about customer support.

peharri
Dec 15, 2006, 10:43 AM
This is true, Verizion does not want unrestricted phones on their network, they simply want you to pay for everything. However, if you have an activated SIM card you can plug it into another phone. Verizon has been refusing to activitate a phone if it does not support E911 services like gps location. The question will be is if the Apple phone has the GPS chip set as well.

FWIW, the CDMA (or rather IS-95/IS-2000/etc - AMPS with a Qualcomm air interface) version of the SIM card is the R-UIM. This technology hasn't been deployed by any US carriers, and I'm not sure it's even possible to get an R-UIM from Verizon or Sprint.

So those stuck with IS-95 and its successors (Verizon, Sprint PCS, Alltel, etc): you'll only be able to activate your phone if your carrier gives you permission. I've heard contradictory things about most of them, I believe they're more liberal than they used to be, though apparently Sprint PCS has a policy of not activating any phones sold by their MVNO partners and their MVNO partners are not allowed to activate phones branded by Sprint PCS. (The shortsightedness of such policies astounds me, but there you have it.)

Thankfully for US cellphone users there's T-Mobile, and Cingular when you can't get a T-Mobile signal.

Maestro64
Dec 15, 2006, 10:45 AM
i see how sim cards are def useful but CDMA and verizon are def the best in the US, my calls are all crystal clear, never dropped and i get service allover. my friends with Cingular have all sorts of issues. Plus GSM phones make all household electronics make a weird buzz noise when a call comes in (tv's, radios, etc) whereas CDMA causes no such interference. I wish there was somethin new and global and not tied to some damn carrier here. Cingulars prices are insane, especially for data and txt plans which arent even unlimited in network:mad:

I have seen the same problem, however it is not with every GSM phone, and it appears to be only with Cingular. I am not sure why this is. I have t-mobile and a RAZR and it does not cause the same problem as friend who has Cingular and RAZR. We swapped phones and changed out SIM cards and the problem stayed with Cingular.

Interesting part of the interference is it only seems to happen right before the phone rings, it is like it boosts its RF energy to recieve the call. So everytime the phone is about to ring you hear the interference and I say to my friend your phone is about to ring.

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 10:46 AM
if this rumor is true is interesting why Apple would leave so many millions of verizon and sprint subscribers behind.
I wonder with these same folks will become the "switch" iPhone advertising campaign.
We'll see. My Verizon is OK, I hope Cingular is not the carrier. T-Mobile maybe would make me "switch".
Or another possibility will be Apple with their own network, so we all can tell the cell carriers to go to hell!:eek:

Keep in mind, Verizon has a reputation of taking their time in approving phones for use. Recall that Verizon approved the RAZR a year after it was officially released and available through Cingular. Odds are Apple does not want to wait a year for Verizon to test any phones before it is "approved" for use (and by "approve" that usually means finding ways to cripple features such as OBEX and other aspects Verizon does not want customers to use). Apple may also want to grant availability to its international customers as GSM capability is internationally compliant.

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 10:51 AM
If you travel internationally on a regular basis, or if you need to use your phone anywhere outside of North America, good luck on a CDMA network. Cingular already has 3G phones (such as LG's newest 3G model) that out perform Verizon's 3G units. CDMA is NOT faster, in fact it is proving to be slower. The only reason Verizon MAY have better sound quality is due to it's aggressive tactics in acquiring more towers. In fact, Verizon has faced numerous lawsuits alleging subpar business tactics in acquiring towers in many area's of the U.S. Let's not forget Verizon's business tactics in crippling the OBEX in all their phones, forcing customers to pay for services such as "Get It Now" to download ringtones and pics (that also expire after certain periods). Their customer service ratings are dropping almost daily. If Verizon doesn't get over themselves and learn to "play nice", I don't see much good in their future.



Wow you clearly have no idea what you are talking. CDMA is much faster than GSM, and no Cingular newest 3G model isn't faster, infact it has been shown to be much slower.

SciTeach
Dec 15, 2006, 10:52 AM
I have a prediction....

On a certain day of the week, in a certain month, in a certain year, Apple will release some gizmo (insert favorite electronic device for gizmo) which will be the best thing since sliced bread.


......Until they update it.......

......On a certain day of the week, in a certain month.....:rolleyes: :p


Please post every single day.:D :rolleyes:

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 10:53 AM
With Sprint and Verizon upgrading to CDMA EVDO Rev A, which should be complete by end of 2007, the upload will be over 3 times as fast as what Cingular has.

gugy
Dec 15, 2006, 10:53 AM
Keep in mind, Verizon has a reputation of taking their time in approving phones for use. Recall that Verizon approved the RAZR a year after it was officially released and available through Cingular. Odds are Apple does not want to wait a year for Verizon to test any phones before it is "approved" for use (and by "approve" that usually means finding ways to cripple features such as OBEX and other aspects Verizon does not want customers to use). Apple may also want to grant availability to its international customers as GSM capability is internationally compliant.


I am just fine in switching to GSM. I just HOPE Cingular is not the only iPhone GSM carrier. That would be very bad for me. Cingular in Southern California is sucks. Specially in San Diego.
Verizon at least allows me to talk at my office and at my home. Cingular never let me do that. That's, why I pray to Cingular not be the one.

peharri
Dec 15, 2006, 11:02 AM
I have seen the same problem, however it is not with everyone GSM phone, and it appears to be only with Cingular. I am not sure why this is. I have t-mobile and a RAZR and it does not cause the same problem as friend who has Cingular and RAZR. We swapped phones and changed out SIM cards and the problem stayed with Cingular.

Interesting part of the interference is it only seems to happen right before the phone rings, it is like it boosts its RF energy to recieve the call. So everytime the phone is about to ring you hear the interference and I say to my friend your phone is about to ring.

It's quite simple, and it's the same kind of issue as Sprint PCS vs Verizon, both of whom also use the same technology but have radically different reputations for quality.

Both T-Mobile and Cingular use GSM. However, GSM can be implemented in a variety of ways. Cingular (both Orange and Blue - AT&T) started off with AMPS networks. These were then upgraded to D-AMPS, solely to increase capacity. D-AMPS, frankly, had no future, and Cingular upgraded to GSM to get it on the path that eventually leads to UMTS (3G GSM) and enlightenment.

There was an issue however. Cingular had managed the growth of its network by simply choosing a more efficient technology, D-AMPS, to carry calls. D-AMPS gives 3x as much capacity as AMPS. So just by upgrading its towers, you get 3x as many calls per tower. GSM doesn't work like that. GSM's advantage over analog from a capacity point of view is that it allows you to use smaller and smaller cells, covering an area with more towers, without interference. (It also manages interference better, so you can use more of the spectrum.) This makes a certain amount of sense, but if you're upgrading from D-AMPS to GSM, you immediately go back to having nearly 1/3 as much capacity as you did to start with.

Enter Half Rate, the cheap band-aid for overloaded GSM networks. Half rate uses a more efficient codec (there are two, HR, and AMR-HR) but in exchange for not terribly good call quality when reception is good, and lousy quality (barely usable) when reception is bad. This, however, improves capacity 100% as two calls can be squeezed into the same space as an ordinary GSM call, so you're now down to only 2/3 as much capacity as your old D-AMPS network, rather than 1/3.

Cingular started running out of capacity, so they switched much of their network to AMR-HR. And that's why Cingular isn't that great at the moment.

T-Mobile, on the other hand, started off as a pure GSM network. It's been fairly sane in managing its growth, so it hasn't needed the HR "bandaid" and call quality is pretty good, considering.

Verizon and Sprint PCS also have the same issues, albeit for different reasons. Verizon has managed its growth well (and only went from AMPS to C-AMPS (IS-95), so hasn't faced a sudden drop in capacity). Sprint PCS, on the other hand, seems to have a phobia about putting up new towers, and believed the hype at the end of the 1990s about CDMA having "infinite" capacity and other such nonsense. So call drops, "ballooning", and poor quality, at peak periods seems to be fairly common for Sprint PCS users.

The current two technologies used throughout the US, GSM and IS-95, are generally very good in quality terms when properly implemented, and absolutely diabolical when the operator is "cheap".

As an aside, you'll note that this message will get a bunch of replies along the lines of "Well, I use Cingular and it's awesome!", "T-Mobile is teh suck!", "Sprint PCS never drops calls on me!", "Verizon's awful". This is because all these networks have areas where they're well implemented and others where they fall below common expectations. On average though...

TheNipponese
Dec 15, 2006, 11:06 AM
Wow you clearly have no idea what you are talking. CDMA is much faster than GSM, and no Cingular newest 3G model isn't faster, infact it has been shown to be much slower.

Uhhh, sike. Looks up the specs on CDMA2000 and UMTS, I think you will be disappointed.

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 11:09 AM
Wow you clearly have no idea what you are talking. CDMA is much faster than GSM, and no Cingular newest 3G model isn't faster, infact it has been shown to be much slower.

Actually, you're wrong. Cingular may have been behind Verizon in 3G development, but the latest phones (which have only been released in the past few weeks/days and in limited 3G markets such as Atlanta and NYC) are proving their worth. Cingularís 3G network is the first widely available service in the world to use HSDPA (High Speed Downlink Packet Access) technology. HSDPA is the high-speed evolution of GSM/EDGE (Global System for Mobile Communication/Enhanced Data Rates for Global Evolution), which shares a common core network. GSM is the worldís most popular wireless technology, which is used by more than one billion people in 210 countries. Cingular's 3G network is currently available in 18 major markets serving 54 communities and provides average download data speeds between 400-700 kilobits per second with bursts to over one megabit. GPRS is pretty slow. EGPRS(EDGE) is much faster. UMTS faster yet. HSDPA faster yet. Cingular now uses HSDPA...

and I don't know what I'm talking about? Please, show some respect when addressing people...

SilvorX
Dec 15, 2006, 11:16 AM
No iden products are done in the chiago area, even thou Verizon and Sprint are CDMA they both work differently. In order to make CDMA phone work with sprints networks other things need to be done. Thus the reason you pointed out above a Sprint CDMA phone can not be activitated on Verizon. Which is very different than GSM where you can move a phone from one GSM provider to another by simply changing SIM cards.

Sprint's Nextel carrier has iDen coverage in Chicago, possibly even sell phones there but I've never been out there so I can't speak for myself.

I knew for years that Sprint's phones cannot be ran on Verizon ;)

But anywho, I just feel that Apple will end up releasing a CDMA version sooner or later, it just seems to be common sense, Motorola disappeared from the CDMA market for a large period of time, but they're back now, even on Sprint, but Motorola isn't Apple. It just depends on what the demand is.. but us Apple fans will buy it no matter what

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 11:45 AM
As an aside, you'll note that this message will get a bunch of replies along the lines of "Well, I use Cingular and it's awesome!", "T-Mobile is teh suck!", "Sprint PCS never drops calls on me!", "Verizon's awful". This is because all these networks have areas where they're well implemented and others where they fall below common expectations. On average though...

I've used Sprint in Boston and Los Angeles in the 90's, Verizon in Boston, Los Angeles, New York City and the upstate NY for seven years and now Cingular in upstate NY and New York City. To be honest, they're all good. In my experience, call qualities were reasonable to excellent. In most cases, it comes down to splitting hairs. Ultimately, customer service, phone model availability, and international coverage seem to be the deciding factors for a lot of people. If you're a tech geek, network dl rates and availability will also factor greatly.

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 11:59 AM
Actually, you're wrong. Cingular may have been behind Verizon in 3G development, but the latest phones (which have only been released in the past few weeks/days and in limited 3G markets such as Atlanta and NYC) are proving their worth. Cingular’s 3G network is the first widely available service in the world to use HSDPA (High Speed Downlink Packet Access) technology. HSDPA is the high-speed evolution of GSM/EDGE (Global System for Mobile Communication/Enhanced Data Rates for Global Evolution), which shares a common core network. GSM is the world’s most popular wireless technology, which is used by more than one billion people in 210 countries. Cingular's 3G network is currently available in 18 major markets serving 54 communities and provides average download data speeds between 400-700 kilobits per second with bursts to over one megabit. GPRS is pretty slow. EGPRS(EDGE) is much faster. UMTS faster yet. HSDPA faster yet. Cingular now uses HSDPA...

and I don't know what I'm talking about? Please, show some respect when addressing people...


EVDO Rev A which sprint has rolled out in 12 markets so far offers speeds of 800-1000 kilobits down, and 300-400 up versus a measly 50-100 for Cingular. I am referring to average speeds too not max. EVDO specs are just as fast as HSDPA.


Current Rev 0 for sprint and verizon has speeds of between 400-700 too, so it isn't slower.


FYI GSM used in the U.S and Europe is NOT compatible with the one used in Japan. You can't use your phone in Japan.

Stridder44
Dec 15, 2006, 12:13 PM
I have a prediction....

On a certain day of the week, in a certain month, in a certain year, Apple will release some gizmo (insert favorite electronic device for gizmo) which will be the best thing since sliced bread.


......Until they update it.......

......On a certain day of the week, in a certain month.....:rolleyes: :p


Please post every single day.:D :rolleyes:


No kidding. Everyday it Pete meets Repeat. Or in this case, iPhone rumor meets iPhone rumor #7

nick.hill
Dec 15, 2006, 12:17 PM
I think the UK networks will love the non subsidy approach. The are desperate to wean people off the "free" phone syndrome. The "halo" effect and kudos of apple is proabaly one of the only brands that could do this.

I loved the Idea that joshysquashy had, give people some credit or discount to encourage unlocked buyers to the network.

We may find that the networks will help Apple out in the marketing as a way of meeting their endgoal.. Real priced phones.

I really think it would be a GSM device, would be silly for them to lock it into one/two area's. Once it's established im confident other variations will follow. If its new make it available to the widest audience you can!

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 12:21 PM
EVDO Rev A which sprint has rolled out in 12 markets so far offers speeds of 800-1000 kilobits down, and 300-400 up versus a measly 50-100 for Cingular. I am referring to average speeds too not max. EVDO specs are just as fast as HSDPA.


Current Rev 0 for sprint and verizon has speeds of between 400-700 too, so it isn't slower.


FYI GSM used in the U.S and Europe is NOT compatible with the one used in Japan. You can't use your phone in Japan.

Again, "Cingular's 3G network is currently available in 18 major markets serving 54 communities and provides average download data speeds between 400-700 kilobits per second with bursts to over one megabit."

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 12:30 PM
Again, "Cingular's 3G network is currently available in 18 major markets serving 54 communities and provides average download data speeds between 400-700 kilobits per second with bursts to over one megabit."



Again that is SLOWER than Sprint Rev A network and Verizon rev A network.

dernhelm
Dec 15, 2006, 12:32 PM
Well, I am glad I'm not the only one who doesn't care.

You aren't. There's a bunch of us but we care so little that even posting "we don't care" is too often more work than it's worth! :)

And at the prices being bandied about, I couldn't afford one anyway...

sonictonic
Dec 15, 2006, 12:36 PM
The title of this "story" is bogus. More iPhone details? These are the same conflicted "details" that have been reported for months!

This crap is driving me insane! :mad:

aristobrat
Dec 15, 2006, 12:40 PM
Keep in mind, Verizon has a reputation of taking their time in approving phones for use. Recall that Verizon approved the RAZR a year after it was officially released and available through Cingular.
Testing's usually not all of the reason for the delay.

With BlackBerrys, RIM always develops and delivers the GSM first -- the worldwide market is much larger than CDMA.

It's usually several months after the GSM version was released before they release a CDMA one, which makes it seem like Sprint/Verizon take forever to release new BlackBerrys.

dernhelm
Dec 15, 2006, 12:53 PM
Uhhh, sike. Looks up the specs on CDMA2000 and UMTS, I think you will be disappointed.

I think you mean "psych".

dernhelm
Dec 15, 2006, 12:59 PM
I will gladly wait 50 years for this phone to be released... knowing Apple it is going to be that good

Really? Have you seen a mobile phone that is only 20 years old?

http://www.hmssirius.info/images/Enroute_Portsmouth_NH_1986_small.jpg

Even Apple couldn't have fixed that!

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 01:06 PM
Again that is SLOWER than Sprint Rev A network and Verizon rev A network.

Those networks aren't even out yet, so how do you know they will be? Those specs are pre-release, and as anyone knows companies will always give "best case scenario" specs as opposed to "real world".

Verizon press release:
12/14/06
A little more on the rumor yesterday that Verizon Wireless was planning to officially launch EVDO Revision A upgrades in ten markets this Friday: "We’ve had a number of communities lit up with Rev. A for a few months, and expect to introduce a first PC card in the coming weeks," says a Verizon Wireless Spokesman to GigaOM's Katie Fehrenbacher. "We won’t be announcing a launch of Rev. A until we hit a significant number of markets up and running, though." It doesn't sound like Friday as a launch date sounds too promising, but stay tuned.

As part of our continued efforts to bring you the best service possible, we will begin upgrading our high-speed wireless broadband network in February 2007. In order to continue to enjoy all the great benefits of BroadbandAccess, customers with affected PC Cards and PDAs will need to download the appropriate software upgrade. Without this important software upgrade, your PC Card or PDA will no longer be able to connect to BroadbandAccess effective February 2007. Please read the following information to see if your PC Card or PDA requires an update.

Wireless Technologies
Edge CDMA2000/1 x EV-DO WCDMA/UMTS
Standard 2.5G 3G 3G
Usage WWAN WWAN WWAN
Throughput Max 384Kbps Max 2.4 Mbps Max 2Mbps
(typical 300-600Kbps) (Up to 10Mbps with
HSDPA technology)
Range Typical 1-5 miles Typical 1-5 miles Typical 1-5 miles
Frequency 1900MHz 400, 800, 900, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2100MHz
1800, 1900, 2100MHz

Again, UP TO 10MBPS WITH HSDPA TECHNOLOGY. Verizon and Sprint do not have HSDPA.


In a press release, Nortel said it and Qualcomm have successfully achieved 7.2 megabits per second (Mbps) mobile data calls based on the Universal Mobile Telephone System - High Speed Downlink Packet Access (UMTS-HSDPA) standard. The companies plan to demonstrate high-resolution video streaming enabled by the turbo-speed throughput during CTIA Wireless 2006 in Las Vegas , April 5-7 (already happened).

The news is a big help for network operators like Cingular (News - Alert) Wireless, which has placed bets on Qualcomm’s HSDPA solutions to provide the technology roadmap for the video and multimedia offerings of tomorrow.

Moreover, the actual specs for RVDO Rev A show so far Sprint leads by just a margin in time to market it's 10-city launch of its EVDO Rev A network yesterday. Customers in major cities like San Francisco, New York City and Los Angeles will be able to get average upload speeds of 300-400 kbps (compared with 50-70 kbps of current EV-DO networks) and an average download speed of 450–800 kbps.

Cingular HSDPA at 7.2 MBPS compared to 2, maybe 3, MBPS (IF all conditions are met to establish a perfect connection) seems a big difference to me...

Look, this is ridiculous, both technologies are keeping up with the other. Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, WHO CARES. The point is, all three companies are leading the market. The difference is the markets they cover. Cingular is international and DOES WORK IN JAPAN. You can rent phones in Japan and use your Cingular SIM card.

http://forums.cingular.com/cng/board/message?board.id=international&message.id=2151

http://forums.cingular.com/cng/board/message?board.id=international&message.id=1185

You can not use Verizon or Sprint in anywhere but North America. As I travel internationally, it is a HUGE difference for me. Over 1 Billion people use GSM. Verizon and Sprint are NOT international. That's a big difference. Until they are, who cares what their DL speeds are? Americans? Pffft.

JMax1
Dec 15, 2006, 01:08 PM
I like all these iPhone rumors. In fact, I like all the rumors. It's one of the big reasons why I come to MacRumors. Actually, I think it's the only reason. It's neat to read up about all the speculation on everything. I like hearing about everyone ideas on how something should be made, run, sold... I'm just thinking about all the rumors that have come and gone in the past few years I've been reading the posts (and just recently joined) and it's all just pretty cool. Call me a geek, I guess, but even if nothing comes out of the iPhone, or if it completely bombs, I dont care. I like just imagining.

And it's also fun to watch people try to one-up each other with "actually, youre wrong." "no, you're wrong" "you clearly have no idea what you're talking about" "my dad can beat up your dad"

Squonk
Dec 15, 2006, 01:23 PM
I like all these iPhone rumors. In fact, I like all the rumors. It's one of the big reasons why I come to MacRumors. Actually, I think it's the only reason. It's neat to read up about all the speculation on everything. I like hearing about everyone ideas on how something should be made, run, sold... I'm just thinking about all the rumors that have come and gone in the past few years I've been reading the posts (and just recently joined) and it's all just pretty cool. Call me a geek, I guess, but even if nothing comes out of the iPhone, or if it completely bombs, I dont care. I like just imagining.

And it's also fun to watch people try to one-up each other with "actually, youre wrong." "no, you're wrong" "you clearly have no idea what you're talking about" "my dad can beat up your dad"

Ditto!! And just you wait until my sister gets home...

How about some more photoshopped phones! How about twist on the original bag phone where it becomes the MacBook Thin Phone that can play movies too! :D

kalisphoenix
Dec 15, 2006, 01:23 PM
I like all these iPhone rumors. In fact, I like all the rumors. It's one of the big reasons why I come to MacRumors. Actually, I think it's the only reason. It's neat to read up about all the speculation on everything. I like hearing about everyone ideas on how something should be made, run, sold... I'm just thinking about all the rumors that have come and gone in the past few years I've been reading the posts (and just recently joined) and it's all just pretty cool. Call me a geek, I guess, but even if nothing comes out of the iPhone, or if it completely bombs, I dont care. I like just imagining.

And it's also fun to watch people try to one-up each other with "actually, youre wrong." "no, you're wrong" "you clearly have no idea what you're talking about" "my dad can beat up your dad"

****.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Dad_Can_Beat_Up_Your_Dad

FFS.

jmbear
Dec 15, 2006, 01:35 PM
Oh my god, another one! :rolleyes:

Your cat is too fat!

Cinch
Dec 15, 2006, 01:43 PM
If it is more compelling than the Motorola KRZR, I'm buying it out of contract. Price is not a factor. On a side note, I'm surprise no one has made a good looking phone that snap out to talk similar to the one used in the Matrix series. As I recalled the Matrix movie series use a phone that make a quick snap sound extending the phone a bit down. It is too masculine i think, than what Apple is use to.

Cinch

peharri
Dec 15, 2006, 01:59 PM
If it is more compelling than the Motorola KRZR, I'm buying it out of contract. Price is not a factor. On a side note, I'm surprise no one has made a good looking phone that snap out to talk similar to the one used in the Matrix series. As I recalled the Matrix movie series use a phone that make a quick snap sound extending the phone a bit down. It is too masculine i think, than what Apple is use to.

Cinch

Probably hard to do in a way that will not easily break and/or wear out. It's only recently that flip phones have become solid enough that phone techs don't swear at them. You can imagine how difficult it is to make something that actually has springs and stuff in it reliable.

My understanding was that that phone (the 71x0 series, IIRC) was only sold with the slider feature in one market, everywhere else it was sliderless.

Me, I'd be happy if Nokia released a quad-band GSM + bluetooth, etc version of the 21x0 series (2110, 2190), but then I'm wierd.

JMax1
Dec 15, 2006, 02:04 PM
****.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Dad_Can_Beat_Up_Your_Dad

FFS.

Wwwhaaaahaaaaaaaa

::cries running home to mommie::

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 03:05 PM
Those networks aren't even out yet, so how do you know they will be? Those specs are pre-release, and as anyone knows companies will always give "best case scenario" specs as opposed to "real world".

Verizon press release:
12/14/06
A little more on the rumor yesterday that Verizon Wireless was planning to officially launch EVDO Revision A upgrades in ten markets this Friday: "We’ve had a number of communities lit up with Rev. A for a few months, and expect to introduce a first PC card in the coming weeks," says a Verizon Wireless Spokesman to GigaOM's Katie Fehrenbacher. "We won’t be announcing a launch of Rev. A until we hit a significant number of markets up and running, though." It doesn't sound like Friday as a launch date sounds too promising, but stay tuned.

As part of our continued efforts to bring you the best service possible, we will begin upgrading our high-speed wireless broadband network in February 2007. In order to continue to enjoy all the great benefits of BroadbandAccess, customers with affected PC Cards and PDAs will need to download the appropriate software upgrade. Without this important software upgrade, your PC Card or PDA will no longer be able to connect to BroadbandAccess effective February 2007. Please read the following information to see if your PC Card or PDA requires an update.

Wireless Technologies
Edge CDMA2000/1 x EV-DO WCDMA/UMTS
Standard 2.5G 3G 3G
Usage WWAN WWAN WWAN
Throughput Max 384Kbps Max 2.4 Mbps Max 2Mbps
(typical 300-600Kbps) (Up to 10Mbps with
HSDPA technology)
Range Typical 1-5 miles Typical 1-5 miles Typical 1-5 miles
Frequency 1900MHz 400, 800, 900, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2100MHz
1800, 1900, 2100MHz

Again, UP TO 10MBPS WITH HSDPA TECHNOLOGY. Verizon and Sprint do not have HSDPA.


In a press release, Nortel said it and Qualcomm have successfully achieved 7.2 megabits per second (Mbps) mobile data calls based on the Universal Mobile Telephone System - High Speed Downlink Packet Access (UMTS-HSDPA) standard. The companies plan to demonstrate high-resolution video streaming enabled by the turbo-speed throughput during CTIA Wireless 2006 in Las Vegas , April 5-7 (already happened).

The news is a big help for network operators like Cingular (News - Alert) Wireless, which has placed bets on Qualcomm’s HSDPA solutions to provide the technology roadmap for the video and multimedia offerings of tomorrow.

Moreover, the actual specs for RVDO Rev A show so far Sprint leads by just a margin in time to market it's 10-city launch of its EVDO Rev A network yesterday. Customers in major cities like San Francisco, New York City and Los Angeles will be able to get average upload speeds of 300-400 kbps (compared with 50-70 kbps of current EV-DO networks) and an average download speed of 450–800 kbps.

Cingular HSDPA at 7.2 MBPS compared to 2, maybe 3, MBPS (IF all conditions are met to establish a perfect connection) seems a big difference to me...

Look, this is ridiculous, both technologies are keeping up with the other. Cingular, Sprint, Verizon, WHO CARES. The point is, all three companies are leading the market. The difference is the markets they cover. Cingular is international and DOES WORK IN JAPAN. You can rent phones in Japan and use your Cingular SIM card.

http://forums.cingular.com/cng/board/message?board.id=international&message.id=2151

http://forums.cingular.com/cng/board/message?board.id=international&message.id=1185

You can not use Verizon or Sprint in anywhere but North America. As I travel internationally, it is a HUGE difference for me. Over 1 Billion people use GSM. Verizon and Sprint are NOT international. That's a big difference. Until they are, who cares what their DL speeds are? Americans? Pffft.


Wow, that chart is off and old. Rev B which comes out in 2008 will allow for up to 74mbps. Cingular may be releasing 7.2mbps down, but their upload is still much slower than Sprint Rev A, over 4 times slower.

Upload speeds are extremely important, and can't be ignored.

Sprint 1.8mbps versus cingular 384kbps. 1.8mbps seems much higher than 384kbps.

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 03:11 PM
Wow, that chart is off and old. Rev B which comes out in 2008 will allow for up to 74mbps. Cingular may be releasing 7.2mbps down, but their upload is still much slower than Sprint Rev A, over 4 times slower.

Upload speeds are extremely important, and can't be ignored.

Sprint 1.8mbps versus cingular 384kbps. 1.8mbps seems much higher than 384kbps.

wow dude, I can't with you. You win. You're all knowing and omnipotent. You rule the universe lol. I'm done.

peharri
Dec 15, 2006, 03:54 PM
Wow, that chart is off and old. Rev B which comes out in 2008 will allow for up to 74mbps. Cingular may be releasing 7.2mbps down, but their upload is still much slower than Sprint Rev A, over 4 times slower.

FWIW HSUPA is coming out over the next year and deals with the upload rates. HSOPA (UMTS's first post-3G non-CDMA air interface) will come out in 2007/2008, and will have 100Mbps down/50Mbps up.

In practicality, the two standards are neck and neck as far as speed and latency issues go. The real issue has been Cingular's slow roll out (and T-Mobile's no roll out), but that should be solved by the AWS spectrum coming online next year. T-Mobile has enough spectrum to blanket the country and they're rolling out UMTS from March. It's going to be good to see some real competition now that the spectrum issues that were W-CDMA's Achile's Heel are dealt with.

As I'd never even consider a mobile phone I can't choose my own hardware on, at my convenience, unless there really were no other options, I'm glad too as it means I finally have a 3G option.

Stewdy
Dec 15, 2006, 05:22 PM
apple will call it? I think the smartphone version (if it ever comes about) should be called the photon (phone+newton). ok it's official: i'm bored. FWIW I think they'll probably use "iphone" just b/c of the instant name recognition...

xsnightclub
Dec 15, 2006, 05:29 PM
apple will call it? I think the smartphone version (if it ever comes about) should be called the photon (phone+newton). ok it's official: i'm bored. FWIW I think they'll probably use "iphone" just b/c of the instant name recognition...

iPod Mobile = iPod + Mobile Phone capable

iPod Video = iPod + Video capable

iPod Photo = iPod + Photo capable

iPod Mini = iPod + Mini Form Factor

iPod Nano = iPod + Really Mini Form Factor

Probably not iPod Zune Killer, that is redundant.

AppleIntelRock
Dec 15, 2006, 05:55 PM
Thinksecret is about as unreliable as cars from Yugoslavia.

AidenShaw
Dec 15, 2006, 08:52 PM
Thinksecret is about as unreliable as cars from Yugoslavia.

I think that there's an unintended double-negative here....

AppleIntelRock
Dec 15, 2006, 08:54 PM
I think that there's an unintended double-negative here....
Ummm... No?

jhedges3
Dec 15, 2006, 08:56 PM
This from ThinkSecret, so it must be true - NOT!

It’s unclear to me why so many of you put such emphasis on the source of any given rumor. Why do you feel that source can be such a powerful predictor of accuracy?

Who cares what website something initially appears at? If I know someone who knows someone who knows something and that all is right and I tell it to ThinkSecret (TS) then TS will get it right. I’m in no way impacted by whether someone else got it wrong in the past and passed it one to TS.

Plus how many rumors does TS release a year, which is to say what is the N that you’re considering? Is it like 1 per week or something like that? And of those how many do they get write and how many do they get wrong?

AppleIntelRock
Dec 15, 2006, 09:01 PM
Itís unclear to me why so many of you put such emphasis on the source of any given rumor. Why do you feel that source can be such a powerful predictor of accuracy?

Who cares what website something initially appears at? If I know someone who knows someone who knows something and that all is right and I tell it to ThinkSecret (TS) then TS will get it right. Iím in no way impacted by whether someone else got it wrong in the past and passed it one to TS.

Plus how many rumors does TS release a year, which is to say what is the N that youíre considering? Is it like 1 per week or something like that? And of those how many do they get write and how many do they get wrong?

The fact of the matter is, it does matter. Your essentially arguing the same argument as saying CNN is as reliable as The National Enquirer or the World News. ThinkSecret is unreliable and as a result, there rumors cannot be trusted. How many incorrect rumors they put out weekly is beside the point. Also, I think you meant "right" and not "write." Errors like that really make a post seem utterly insignificant.

DVK916
Dec 15, 2006, 09:11 PM
FWIW HSUPA is coming out over the next year and deals with the upload rates. HSOPA (UMTS's first post-3G non-CDMA air interface) will come out in 2007/2008, and will have 100Mbps down/50Mbps up.

In practicality, the two standards are neck and neck as far as speed and latency issues go. The real issue has been Cingular's slow roll out (and T-Mobile's no roll out), but that should be solved by the AWS spectrum coming online next year. T-Mobile has enough spectrum to blanket the country and they're rolling out UMTS from March. It's going to be good to see some real competition now that the spectrum issues that were W-CDMA's Achile's Heel are dealt with.

As I'd never even consider a mobile phone I can't choose my own hardware on, at my convenience, unless there really were no other options, I'm glad too as it means I finally have a 3G option.

HSUPA does deal with uplink, but Cingular hasn't started upgrading to that yet, and has not given any signs that they plan to grade to it within the next year.

jhedges3
Dec 15, 2006, 09:21 PM
Wow you clearly have no idea what you are talking. CDMA is much faster than GSM, and no Cingular newest 3G model isn't faster, infact it has been shown to be much slower.

If I had a nickel for every exchange on the advantages, limitations, geography of use, and otherwise personal preference for, every 2G and 3G standard for mobile phones, I could work towards destroying all traces of any of them. Atomize towers, have book-burning sessions in major cities, block Wikipedia from having pages about them.

My ultimate goal would be to abolish, or at least diminish, further discussions of these standards. When will any of you realize that someone, in fact some people, exactly like you have already said very similar things, perhaps even on the same day at the same time in another place.

How about searching for the things you say before saying them, so as not to add the cacophony of repetitious drivel. Isn’t there a law by Shannon, or someone like him, and if there isn’t there should be, which says that if you say something over and over that’s already been said thousands of times, what you say on that N+100001th time carries very little information. (If any of you would like to show me examples of people that have said what I’ve said, please quote. I always liked the idea of not practicing the things I preach).

Nonetheless, If you’d like to join the club and have an inner monologue with anyone who cares to read it on how the upcoming Mac Phone (not iPhone) will impact on your life, given where you live, and how much money you make, and how many texts you send, and whether you’ll look wonderful doing video chatting, and how long your thumbs are, please, by all means do so.

There is nothing more captivating for me than knowing all of your lives with respect to your phones. And to have access to the philosophies you create for yourselves to accompany your purchasing decisions is PRICELESS.

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 09:22 PM
Uploads, downloads, networks, who is reliable, who isn't. It's all conjecture at best. I'm getting the sense there are a lot of techie ego's battling for attention here. Just whip out your microprocessors and see which one is bigger already ;). There's a war in Iraq and our civil liberties have slowly been stripped from us due to this recent administration, 2 out of 3 high school students are dropping out, health care is a mess, terrorism has worsened from our (lack of) foreign policy, social security is almost non-existent, education is a luxury most Americans can't afford, the dollar is weaker than ever, the ice caps are melting and our global climate is a disaster, and corporate America is taking over the planet with greed and corruption. THOSE are important topics. Who gives a rats behind what new tech toy Apple is releasing to make the over bloated pockets of corporate executives richer at a new toy the general population will throw away in a year only to pollute more landfills. Think Perspective.

CJD2112
Dec 15, 2006, 09:23 PM
If I had a nickel for every exchange on the advantages, limitations, geography of use, and otherwise personal preference for, every 2G and 3G standard for mobile phones, I could work towards destroying all traces of any of them. Atomize towers, have book-burning sessions in major cities, block Wikipedia from having pages about them.

My ultimate goal would be to abolish, or at least diminish, further discussions of these standards. When will any of you realize that someone, in fact some people, exactly like you have already said very similar things, perhaps even on the same day at the same time in another place.

How about searching for the things you say before saying them, so as not to add the cacophony of repetitious drivel. Isnít there a law by Shannon, or someone like him, and if there isnít there should be, which says that if you say something over and over thatís already been said thousands of times, what you say on that N+100001th time carries very little information. (If any of you would like to show me examples of people that have said what Iíve said, please quote. I always liked the idea of not practicing the things I preach).

Nonetheless, If youíd like to join the club and have an inner monologue with anyone who cares to read it on how the upcoming Mac Phone (not iPhone) will impact on your life, given where you live, and how much money you make, and how many texts you send, and whether youíll look wonderful doing video chatting, and how long your thumbs are, please, by all means do so.

There is nothing more captivating for me than knowing all of your lives with respect to your phones. And to have access to the philosophies you create for yourselves to accompany your purchasing decisions is PRICELESS.

ROFL I couldn't have said it better myself. =)

AppleIntelRock
Dec 15, 2006, 09:26 PM
ROFL I couldn't have said it better myself. =)

I couldn't have either, I also wouldn't have had the enegry to type all that! I'm tired just reading it :p

jhedges3
Dec 15, 2006, 09:32 PM
The fact of the matter is, it does matter. Your essentially arguing the same argument as saying CNN is as reliable as The National Enquirer or the World News. ThinkSecret is unreliable and as a result, there rumors cannot be trusted. How many incorrect rumors they put out weekly is beside the point. Also, I think you meant "right" and not "write." Errors like that really make a post seem utterly insignificant.

Also, I think you meant ďtheirĒ and not ďthere,Ē which by your own logic, not mine, makes your comment seem utterly insignificant.

That seems rather silly to me. The comments of everyone on MR are littered with errors, which may or may not make them insignificant in terms of the points they make. Although I do agree with the idea that one should make a reasonable attempt to be error-free. In any case, I appreciate your correction.

My impression of the National Enquirer is that they deal in fabrication and that everyone knows as much. I donít know anything about TS, but my guess would be that as much could not be assumed in their case, which makes it an unfair comparison.

Regardless, that theyíre often wrong does not make them always wrong. If they can be assumed to always be wrong, why is it even worth discussing them?

jhedges3
Dec 15, 2006, 09:56 PM
The fact of the matter is, it does matter. Your essentially arguing the same argument as saying CNN is as reliable as The National Enquirer or the World News. ThinkSecret is unreliable and as a result, there rumors cannot be trusted. How many incorrect rumors they put out weekly is beside the point. Also, I think you meant "right" and not "write." Errors like that really make a post seem utterly insignificant.

Only a person who knows almost nothing about basic statistics and signal detection theory, both of which I know little about, would suggest that the number of data points (the frequency with which TS gets it right or wrong) does NOT matter.

The fact of the matter is it matters.

If you took a coin from your pocket and flipped it two times would you be as certain of your estimate of the probability of getting tails on the next flip as compared to an estimate based 10,000 flips?

I wouldnít.

toughboy
Dec 16, 2006, 06:43 AM
I believe Steve Jobs has finally fallen off his rocker.

what are u? A MS fan-boy or something?..

UI is everything in electronics and I believe Apple will kick some a** if they can manage to do what they did in iPod with the brand new iPhone..

BoyBach
Dec 16, 2006, 06:51 AM
If I had a nickel for every exchange on the advantages, limitations, geography of use, and otherwise personal preference for, every 2G and 3G standard for mobile phones, I could work towards destroying all traces of any of them. Atomize towers, have book-burning sessions in major cities, block Wikipedia from having pages about them.

My ultimate goal would be to abolish, or at least diminish, further discussions of these standards. When will any of you realize that someone, in fact some people, exactly like you have already said very similar things, perhaps even on the same day at the same time in another place.

How about searching for the things you say before saying them, so as not to add the cacophony of repetitious drivel. Isnít there a law by Shannon, or someone like him, and if there isnít there should be, which says that if you say something over and over thatís already been said thousands of times, what you say on that N+100001th time carries very little information. (If any of you would like to show me examples of people that have said what Iíve said, please quote. I always liked the idea of not practicing the things I preach).

Nonetheless, If youíd like to join the club and have an inner monologue with anyone who cares to read it on how the upcoming Mac Phone (not iPhone) will impact on your life, given where you live, and how much money you make, and how many texts you send, and whether youíll look wonderful doing video chatting, and how long your thumbs are, please, by all means do so.

There is nothing more captivating for me than knowing all of your lives with respect to your phones. And to have access to the philosophies you create for yourselves to accompany your purchasing decisions is PRICELESS.


Brilliant! This is why I can't be bothered to read these phone threads, I just scan through and read all about the acronyms and my head hurts! I came to Apple to keep things simple.

50548
Dec 16, 2006, 07:12 AM
If you travel internationally on a regular basis, or if you need to use your phone anywhere outside of North America, good luck on a CDMA network. Cingular already has 3G phones (such as LG's newest 3G model) that out perform Verizon's 3G units. CDMA is NOT faster, in fact it is proving to be slower.

Exactly, CDMA is all but dead. In Europe (the biggest market), it's all about GSM, nothing else. Even in Brazil one of the major operators there decided to change to GSM, given its overwhelming domination in the global market. It was really ironic, as their ad campaigns ALWAYS praised CDMA as the best technology with a wide adoption worldwide (which is bogus)...after a few months, they changed everything for strategic reasons...

As for the iPhone, no subsidization, NO phone for me...it's THAT simple in Europe...NO ONE buys a phone without a contract...it's just plain stupid to pay 500 bucks if you can get the same thing for 100 and a 10 euro monthly plan for 12 months.

The U.S. mobile market is one of the most anachronistic of the world, with dead technologies and unreliable plans. If you guys wanna see REAL technology and business models, head to Europe, Japan or even South America...not the US.

gloss
Dec 16, 2006, 07:55 AM
The U.S. mobile market is one of the most anachronistic of the world, with dead technologies and unreliable plans. If you guys wanna see REAL technology and business models, head to Europe, Japan or even South America...not the US.

Yeah, well...

...our roads are bigger than your roads.

50548
Dec 16, 2006, 08:06 AM
Yeah, well...

...our roads are bigger than your roads.

Well, I still prefer the autobahns in Germany with no speed limits...:rolleyes:

gloss
Dec 16, 2006, 09:18 AM
Well, I still prefer the autobahns in Germany with no speed limits...:rolleyes:

I'm gonna go cry in a corner now.

Goldfinger
Dec 16, 2006, 09:30 AM
As for the iPhone, no subsidization, NO phone for me...it's THAT simple in Europe...NO ONE buys a phone without a contract...it's just plain stupid to pay 500 bucks if you can get the same thing for 100 and a 10 euro monthly plan for 12 months.
In Belgium we buy phones without a contract. Phones that are tied to a contract (or contracts to a phone whatever) are illegal. It's just simple customer protection. The provider can't lock you into using the phones they want.

AFAIK it's the only country in the world were locked phones are illegal. It's has it's advantages and disadvantages. Except for maybe some Scandinavian countries ? Not sure about this. Can't be bothered to research it.

SactoGuy18
Dec 16, 2006, 09:37 AM
In my humble opinion, I think Apple will choose Cingular (soon to be AT&T Wireless) as its provider for the iPhone. After all, Cingular did sell a cellphone that worked with iTunes....

For voice communications, I like Cingular because they have strong signals all over the populated areas in California. :)

Goldfinger
Dec 16, 2006, 09:59 AM
I stand by my initial thought that it will be an unlocked GSM phone. Apple (Steve) likes to be in full control. I don't see them allowing other companies to mess with their product.

And I reallly hope that it isn't some huge smartphone with a qwerty/azerty keyboard. They're pointless. Predictive text input works flawlessly. Keep it small and, especially, light. Nothing worse than a heavy cell phone (+110g).

Oh and quad band would be nice.

All it needs for me is:
Quad Band
HSDPA/EDGE/Whatever 3G crap
Bluetooth
Good calendar feature
notes feature (stickies !)
Music player
Full SMS/MMS support
Good predictive input

That is ALL it needs. And to be honest that's exactly what the first iPhone is going to be (except for maybe the Quad band) IMHO.

CJD2112
Dec 16, 2006, 10:26 AM
The U.S. mobile market is one of the most anachronistic of the world, with dead technologies and unreliable plans. If you guys wanna see REAL technology and business models, head to Europe, Japan or even South America...not the US.

You hit the nail right on the head. Don't tell any American's that, they'll get defensive and start to argue. "Yeah, well, my daddy can beat up your daddy." lol Truly pathetic.

50548
Dec 16, 2006, 10:28 AM
In Belgium we buy phones without a contract. Phones that are tied to a contract (or contracts to a phone whatever) are illegal. It's just simple customer protection. The provider can't lock you into using the phones they want.

AFAIK it's the only country in the world were locked phones are illegal. It's has it's advantages and disadvantages. Except for maybe some Scandinavian countries ? Not sure about this. Can't be bothered to research it.

No, you misunderstood me. We also may buy phones without a contract or unlocked here in CH, as well as pretty much anywhere else in the world. But, in my opinion, advantages are close to zero without an abonnement.

My v3i serves me perfectly well, has a great design and Sunrise's service in CH is very good. No way I would pay 300 bucks more for a phone without a contract, because I gain NOTHING from that, unless I wanna change operators every 3 months, which is nonsense...that's the reality in Europe, for anyone who wants a non-prepaid plan.

Goldfinger
Dec 16, 2006, 10:44 AM
No, you misunderstood me. We also may buy phones without a contract or unlocked here in CH, as well as pretty much anywhere else in the world. But, in my opinion, advantages are close to zero without an abonnement.

My v3i serves me perfectly well, has a great design and Sunrise's service in CH is very good. No way I would pay 300 bucks more for a phone without a contract, because I gain NOTHING from that, unless I wanna change operators every 3 months, which is nonsense...that's the reality in Europe, for anyone who wants a non-prepaid plan.
As long as it's unlocked it's great. The big problem is that a lot of telcos tend to lock their phones and change the software and cripple the phone's features. And that's a bad thing. It's great if your telco doesn't cripple your phone. But a lot of them do. And the selection of phones isn't always great.

The only thing I was saying is that the market is a little bit different here. :)

I absolutely agree though that if you aren't changing operators every few months it doesn't matter all that much. As long as the phone isn't locked ! Locked/propietary firmware cellphones are evil !

aristobrat
Dec 16, 2006, 01:39 PM
In Belgium we buy phones without a contract. Phones that are tied to a contract (or contracts to a phone whatever) are illegal. It's just simple customer protection. The provider can't lock you into using the phones they want.
Out of curiosity, how well do the carriers handle supporting devices that aren't theirs. If you buy a phone from provider A in Belgium and switch to provider B, and provider B doesn't sell that model of phone, are you out of luck if you can't get your GPRS settings to work?

I'm just wondering how that scales.

Cingular and Verizon each have 5x more customers than the entire population of Belguim.

50548
Dec 16, 2006, 04:34 PM
Out of curiosity, how well do the carriers handle supporting devices that aren't theirs. If you buy a phone from provider A in Belgium and switch to provider B, and provider B doesn't sell that model of phone, are you out of luck if you can't get your GPRS settings to work?

I'm just wondering how that scales.

Cingular and Verizon each have 5x more customers than the entire population of Belguim.

You are bound by contracts, not SIM-locks. Therefore, if you want out before the expiration of the contract, you pay a fee...that's how providers keep the customers and ensure revenue in case of bail-outs.

Indeed, practically every provider in the civilized mobile world (South America, Europe and Japan) has GSM; in consequence, most models work out of the box with anyone...you just change the SIM and go.

digitalbiker
Dec 16, 2006, 08:37 PM
The U.S. mobile market is one of the most anachronistic of the world, with dead technologies and unreliable plans. If you guys wanna see REAL technology and business models, head to Europe, Japan or even South America...not the US.

These things tend to run in cycles. Every 10 to 20 years, technology makes a serious quantum jump which is not backward compatible with the old system.

One decade a country leads the others with the best technology, then that technolgy ages, and other countries that didn't have an existing infrastrcture, update with a newer better technolgy. Ten years later that existing technolgy bogs down the infrastructure in those countries and the first country by that time has re-vamped the entire infrastructure and it leads once again.

We will see where Europe is in 10 to 20 years, and where the US is in 10 to 20 years.

We just seem to be out of sync. I guess what we need is a giant isnyc app that keeps us all on the same page. But then, who would we find to mock? ??The Martians??

aristobrat
Dec 16, 2006, 09:36 PM
Indeed, practically every provider in the civilized mobile world (South America, Europe and Japan) has GSM; in consequence, most models work out of the box with anyone...you just change the SIM and go.
It's not like the United State's largest carrier isn't GSM. ;)

Regarding using unbranded phones, after changing the SIM, voice and SMS will work, but configuring data and MMS on a non-carrier branded phone is a tedious process, and if you run into problems, other than giving you the proper settings, the carriers don't offer support.

i.e. If you correctly type in T-Mobile's MMS WAP IP gateway, APN name, and Messaging Server and your non-branded phone can't send MMS, they won't offer additional support.

Below are typical steps to get a data connection setup on a non-T-Mobile phone. I just can't imagine Apple selling unlocked, unbranded phones and expect the owners to have to type this in to get their new iPhone to connect to the Internet on T-Mobile, or type something similar to get it working on Cingular.


Setting up the proxy

1. On the handset, press the Start button.
2. Scroll to Settings and press the joystick button.
3. Scroll to More and press the joystick button.
4. Scroll to Data Connections and press the joystick button.
5. Press the Menu button.
6. Highlight Edit Connections and press the joystick button.
7. Scroll to Proxy Connections and press the joystick button.
8. Press the Menu button.
9. Highlight Add and press the joystick button.
10. In the Description: field field, enter T-Zones.
11. Scroll to Connects from: field and press the joystick button.
12. Scroll to The Internet and press Done.
13. Scroll to Connects to: field and press the joystick button.
14. Scroll to WAP Network and press Done.
15. Scroll to Proxy (name:port) : field and enter 216.155.165.050:9201 or Permanent, non-secure.
16. Scroll to Type: field and press the joystick button.
17. Scroll to WAP and press Done.
18. Scroll to User name: field and enter . Otherwise leave this field blank.
19. Scroll to Password: field and enter . Otherwise leave this field blank.
20. Press Done 5 times
21. Press Home to return to the main screen

Setting up the data account

1. On the handset, press the Start button.
2. Scroll to Settings and press the joystick button.
3. Scroll to More and press the joystick button.
4. Scroll to Data Connections and press the joystick button.
5. Press the Menu button.
6. Highlight Edit Connections and press the joystick button.
7. Scroll to GPRS Connections and press the joystick button.
8. Press the Menu button.
9. Highlight Add and press the joystick button.
10. In the Description: field, enter T-Zones.
11. Scroll to Connects to: field and press the joystick button.
12. Scroll to The Internet and press Done.
13. Scroll to Access Point: field and enter wap.voicestream.com.
14. Scroll to User name: field and enter . Otherwise leave this field blank.
15. Scroll to Password: field and enter . Otherwise leave this field blank.
16. Scroll to Primary DNS: field and enter . Otherwise leave this field blank.
17. Scroll to Secondary DNS: field and enter . Otherwise leave this field blank.
18. Press Done 3 times to return to the Data Connections menu.
19. Scroll to WAP connection: field and press the joystick button.
20. Scroll to T-Zones and press the joystick button.
21. Press Done twice.
22. Press the Home button to return to the main screen.

The new WAP profile is now configured and ready for use.

ravenvii
Dec 16, 2006, 10:42 PM
It's not like the United State's largest carrier isn't GSM. ;)

Regarding using unbranded phones, after changing the SIM, voice and SMS will work, but configuring data and MMS on a non-carrier branded phone is a tedious process, and if you run into problems, other than giving you the proper settings, the carriers don't offer support.

i.e. If you correctly type in T-Mobile's MMS WAP IP gateway, APN name, and Messaging Server and your non-branded phone can't send MMS, they won't offer additional support.

Below are typical steps to get a data connection setup on a non-T-Mobile phone. I just can't imagine Apple selling unlocked, unbranded phones and expect the owners to have to type this in to get their new iPhone to connect to the Internet on T-Mobile, or type something similar to get it working on Cingular.


Maybe Apple will provide preexisting profiles, and when the phone first boots, you would go through a process similar to the OS X setup assistant, and be asked which network you are using, after which the OS will be automatically configured accordingly.

AppliedVisual
Dec 17, 2006, 02:42 AM
Maybe Apple will provide preexisting profiles, and when the phone first boots, you would go through a process similar to the OS X setup assistant, and be asked which network you are using, after which the OS will be automatically configured accordingly.

They would have to... In order to get a full range of data services and extended capabilities across multiple networks, at least here in the states, they will have to supply user assistance. There are some providers who also don't allow subscription or use of some of their extended services when using an unlocked or third-party phone. Verizon is a prime example, they will activate an unlocked phone on their network as long as it supports E911, but unless it's a phone model they specifically sell/support, they don't typically allow access to data services and other extended features. ...As if VCast is really a selling point to buy a phone through them. :rolleyes:

But I think not only would Apple have to strike arrangements with most major carriers here in North America (probably elsewhere too), but they will also have to pre-load the iPhone with setup/install profiles that can essentially auto-configure the phone for whatever carrier it's being linked to. It actually wouldnt' be that big of a task... The big task at hand is getting multiple carriers to openly embrace an unlocked phone that provides full access to internet services and media like iTunes, circumventing their own subscription services. ...I could see the iPhone being non-subsidized and the plan prices still being the same as with any other phone - so the carrier's aren't out any money (or at least not out of any money that they think they would be getting).

Joch
Dec 17, 2006, 04:20 AM
Maybe it will look like this (I hope not).

http://macworld.idg.se/ArticlePages/200612/17/20061217104411_MW/iphoneredbox.jpg

Read the article here (in Swedish): http://macworld.idg.se/ArticlePages/200612/17/20061217104411_MW/20061217104411_MW.dbp.asp

A smartphone would be the best I think!

Dr.Gargoyle
Dec 17, 2006, 08:58 AM
ok, now after I have read ALL recent posts regarding the illusive iPhone, I must say I am bit baffled. Many OP on this, otherwise very knowledgeable, forum seem to miss the fact that regardless whether you buy your phone unlocked without a plan or you get your phone for free when you sign up for a plan, you do pay for the phone. It is just a question if you want to pay the phone upfront or through small payments each month.

Here in Europe we have small MVNO that basically operates according to BYOP (bring-your-own-phone) and charge a substantially lower minute cost. There should be MVNO like that in US too

Now just do the math. Check how much you pay in total for x minutes with a free, or subsidized, cellphone y, and compare it other alternatives. You will approximately end up with the same total sum.

It is basically just different business plans. Don't get tricked by this version of "three-cards". Network operators are out there to make money and they will shuffle the cards so you think you will get a much better deal with them, when you in fact pay more or less the same regardless of which option you choose.

aristobrat
Dec 17, 2006, 02:09 PM
Now just do the math. Check how much you pay in total for x minutes with a free, or subsidized, cellphone y, and compare it other alternatives. You will approximately end up with the same total sum.
In the US, regardless of if you bring your own phone to a carrier, buy a heavily-subsidized phone from a carrier, or buy a phone from a carrier with no subsidy, the plans cost the same.

There is no discount/reward/perk given to people that bring their own phone or buy a non-subsidized phone. i.e. if you want 600 anytime minutes + unlimited nights/weekends on T-Mobile, it's $39.99/month regardless of how you got your phone. Same for the other carriers.

In the end, you end up paying the most if you DON'T take advantage of the carriers subsidies.

Dr.Gargoyle
Dec 17, 2006, 08:48 PM
In the end, you end up paying the most if you DON'T take advantage of the carriers subsidies.
Meaning you don't have any independent MVNO in US? :confused:
If that is true, I am truly surprised that no one has realized how money that are to be made in just selling minutes. Very odd, indeed. Who knows, That might be Apples game plan. Become MVNO that only sell cheap minutes. Just bring your own phone and get a good deal on the minutes.
In either case, it is very odd that no one has seen this opportunity before.

a456
Dec 18, 2006, 10:15 AM
It will soon be Christmas day and if you already have a Mac and an iPod there is very little else that Apple offers at the moment to fill your stocking. Sure a C2D iMac or MBP would be nice, but you don't really need it. An 80GB iPod would be great but your iPod still does its job. The rumors about an iPhone therefore are a primal scream from the Mac faithful that we want something new, the next big thing, the revolutionary gadget that will make the world a better place and change the styling of everything from teapots to toasters from cars to caravans and all the things in between. DON'T MAKE US WAIT UNTIL JANUARY is the collective shout. Unfortunately Apple makes us wait and then they make us wait that little bit longer. Whether all the waiting is necessary or whether it is in part a marketing ploy who knows, but many people's stomachs are tied in knots waiting and we can't even buy a Wii to get over the need to buy something, because there are none available, though Nintendo taunt us on our televisions with adverts for their games.

Georgie
Dec 19, 2006, 01:59 PM
I am beginning to think that Apple is taking their secrecy too far.

I think it's to their detriment, but there are counter-arguments. On the one hand secrecy lends itself to sites like this, and probably enhances the excitement people feel about Apple products. No other companies have "fanboys" quite like Apple does.

Like an SAT question, I'd equate: Rumors are to Apple as Piracy is to Adobe. Both companies publicly decry it, but actually they both benefit from it, at least to some degree. (I'm convinced that Adobe doesn't try too hard to stop piracy because all the kiddies who steal it, like myself back in the day, learned how to use it instead of, say, Corel or GIMP, and now those kids are professionals and will only buy Adobe because it's the best and it's what they know. In fact, sounds a little like Apple's heyday in the education market.)

However, while secrecy may be good for something like iTV or some speaker system, I don't think it's good for their iPhone product. Especially not now that everyone is talking about. Some people like myself are in the market now for a new phone. I'm waiting for the iPhone. If it's not at least announced at MacWorld I will actually be upset.

Some will say I shouldn't be so invested in a silly device, but there'd be no problem if Apple were just a little more transparent. Apple will neither confirm nor deny this product. I love my MBP (I'm a switcher) and I badly want a good phone that syncs well with my Apple applications. That's why I'm willing to wait. However right now I'm on edge because maybe Apple's developing a phone, maybe they're not, maybe they were but aren't going to release it, maybe I should go ahead and buy another phone because mine is falling apart, maybe they are going to release a phone tomorrow, maybe in a month, maybe in six months, maybe it's going to be the perfect phone that meets my every expectation, maybe they'll release one and it won't be so great and I'll end up buying another phone anyway: point is, Apple's secrecy makes it difficult for myself and other consumers to plan expensive purchases. I'll happily and patiently wait if Apple confirms the phone. I'll peacefully go buy a different phone if Apple states they're not going to release this thing. But they won't say either way, so I'm frustrated.

Fundamentally my point is that Apple can be too secretive. Most of the time they're secrecy is harmless (though financial analysts may beg to differ), at times it's even beneficial, but for the iPhone their secrecy is becoming an albatross. It's in everyone's best interest for Apple to give some indication about the project. I hope they do so at MacWorld. If they don't I guess the thing to do is move on and forget about Apple.

On an aside, this gives me some idea why IT managers seem to dislike working with Apple--they can't plan product purchases and deployments efficiently because Apple is so damn secretive. As Apple's market share grows, this will become a larger and greater problem.

G

aristobrat
Dec 19, 2006, 02:41 PM
On an aside, this gives me some idea why IT managers seem to dislike working with Apple--they can't plan product purchases and deployments efficiently because Apple is so damn secretive. As Apple's market share grows, this will become a larger and greater problem.
Well, considering the number of non-disclosure forms we've had to sign in my IT department to see other manufacturers "secret" product roadmaps, I highly doubt that Apple business reps aren't keeping their business customers in the product loop, not that the iPhone would be a product most businesses would care about.

AppliedVisual
Dec 19, 2006, 03:25 PM
I am beginning to think that Apple is taking their secrecy too far.

I don't think so... They're no more secretive than a lot of other large companies in other industries. What we have to consider is that we've all become used to common PC and electronics makers who flaunt their products long before they come available. Why do they do this? Because they're desperately trying to win your consumer dollars and always trying to stay one step ahead of their competitors, of which there are countless numbers.

In PC land, Intel announces a new CPU product. Immediately thereafter, PC vendors all start announcing upcoming products based on the new CPU product -- a good many of them even turn out to be vapor-ware or severely delayed. Apple doesn't see themselves as a cut-throat PC vendor... They're not going to play that game. Who cares if Dell was the first to announce notebooks based on the Core 2 Duo CPU line? They only beat Apple to market by a matter of about 5 weeks. Apple, while they took tons of criticism over this, still had 2GHz and faster C2D notebooks on the market *BEFORE* several big-name PC vendors -- primarily HP.

Right now, there are a number of us eagerly awaiting 8-core Mac Pro systems. It's hard to wait because Intel is shipping the quad-core Xeon (Clovertown) CPUs. But currently the *ONLY* PC vendor selling systems based on them is HP (Intel's Clovertown launch partner) and even with that, these systems are only available through their corporate channels and in limited quantities.

Apple just has a different approach to the market with their products. If they are in fact developing a new mobile phone product, they will announce it when they feel the time is right. Jobs and company are so confident in their products that they don't see a need to announce them months before they are available. They truly believe that when a product is ready, they will announce it and people buy it simply because it is a better product. And for the most part, this holds true. We all know that Apple has had a few duds, but what large electronics/computer company hasn't? Luckily the good outweighs the bad here buy a very large margin.

greg6028
Dec 26, 2006, 11:02 AM
I predict that the iTunes store will be renamed this year. Maybe too iLife?
Also, I was thinking, when Apple introduces the new iPhone, how much revenue they will be able to generate with rings tones via iTunes. Another revenue stream for Apple!
What does everyone think of that?

Squonk
Dec 27, 2006, 01:26 PM
I predict that the iTunes store will be renamed this year. Maybe too iLife?
Also, I was thinking, when Apple introduces the new iPhone, how much revenue they will be able to generate with rings tones via iTunes. Another revenue stream for Apple!
What does everyone think of that?

I foresee Apple promoting the fact that when buying songs from iTMS, that the songs can be used as ringtones on the iFone. I don't see Apple selling another ringtone format. Heck, you can purchase the whole song for $.99.

But, here is a twist on the iFone - you can set a playlist to be your ringtone list and it will shuffle between them!

I think I see where you are going with the rename of iTMS since it will be the hub for music, movies, tv shows and phone integration, but I don't think iLife will be it since they have that already used. iTunes Media Store? Much like they have the iPod brand, I don't see them ditching on the iTunes brand either.

AppleIntelRock
Dec 27, 2006, 01:36 PM
I foresee Apple promoting the fact that when buying songs from iTMS, that the songs can be used as ringtones on the iFone. I don't see Apple selling another ringtone format. Heck, you can purchase the whole song for $.99.

But, here is a twist on the iFone - you can set a playlist to be your ringtone list and it will shuffle between them!

I think I see where you are going with the rename of iTMS since it will be the hub for music, movies, tv shows and phone integration, but I don't think iLife will be it since they have that already used. iTunes Media Store? Much like they have the iPod brand, I don't see them ditching on the iTunes brand either.
I agree 100%, I don't see ANY way apple would ditch the iTunes name, possibly iTunes Media Store.

AppleIntelRock
Dec 31, 2006, 12:20 AM
I will gladly wait 50 years for this phone to be released... knowing Apple it is going to be that good

Agreed. So many crappy phones come out every day. Why not wait for a really, really great one?

babymerv
Jan 1, 2007, 08:42 PM
Anybody here read the 10K report on Apple business strategy ..... download the pdf ... see page 9 of 144. "cellular phone" .... is part of their plan .....
;)

peharri
Jan 2, 2007, 08:45 AM
Anybody here read the 10K report on Apple business strategy ..... download the pdf ... see page 9 of 144. "cellular phone" .... is part of their plan .....
;)

I'm looking forward to the Apple CD and DVD players, PDAs, and digital cameras (video and still) mentioned in the same sentence myself... ;P

aristobrat
Jan 2, 2007, 09:19 AM
Digital Lifestyle
The Company believes that for both professional and consumers the personal computer has become the center of an evolving digital lifestyle by integrating and enhancing the utility of advanced digital devices such as the Company's iPods, digital video and still cameras, televisions, CD and DVD players, cellular phones, personal digital assistants, and other consumer electronic devices."
I agree w/ peharri. Unless you're planning on seeing Apple video/still cameras, TV, CD/DVD players, PDAs and "other consumer electronic devices", I don't think their mention of "celluar phones" means much in that context.

PlayballTim
Jan 2, 2007, 12:55 PM
I can't see Apple coping with carriers and competitors like Nokia, and Motorola, but CAN see Apple chasing the 100,000,000 user plus PTP phone market with a wifi phone. I've got a dozen other reasons, but it adds up to 1,200 words that can't fit here. But check out the rationale on my blog, CogentPassion (http://cogentpassion.blogspot.com/2007/01/its-gonna-be-wi-fiphone-apple-wi-fi.html):