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View Full Version : Mac biggots? Whats up with that?


markjs
May 4, 2003, 06:35 AM
I am a confirmed PC user, you might call me a PC biggot because I will defend my PC preference to the death. Primarily I like the PC because of it's gaming ability, combined with internet access, and the fact I could afford it and am able to build and upgrade it myself cheaply while still buying high quality parts. My PC is a modest:

Athlon XP 1700+
ECS K7S5A Mainboard
512MB PC2100
SB Live Value
Onboard Lan
ATI Radeon 8500LE 64MB
Realtek PCI NIC
Western Digital 40GB and 20GB 7200RPM ATA 100 hard disks
Running Windows XP Professional Service pack 1

What I am getting at by this post, is why are Mac people so biggoted against the PC. Another guy made a post somewhere else about how maybe one in fifteen PC users is anti Mac, but more like one in two Mac users is anti PC. What can a Mac user do that I can't? I do audio and video editing on my PC, I can't think of anything a Mac can do my computer can't (and I'll wager I'll do anything cheaper, and being poor that's a serious consideration to me), and what is the big draw to the Mac. I realize this isn't the best forum for a two sided debate, but I am thowing it out there anyway.

Note: I really don't want to hear how Windows sucks, because the newest version is very easily useable and quite stable and I personally know at least one person who likes Windows XP as much as OSX and uses both regularly. Granted Win 98 was a steaming pile o' dog doo and so was ME, but since 2K Windows has been very viable. Another thing to consider is that Windows is written to work on hundreds....even thousands of hardware configurations, when Mac OS needs to work on maybe 10.....That itself aquits even Windows 95 rather nicely. Besides I can run Linux or other flavors of Unix on my PC should I choose. My inquiry is about the hardware....why do you love it so much it makes you hate PC's

PS I know two people who have switched from Mac personally, so it goes both ways.

Veldek
May 4, 2003, 07:43 AM
Hey,

One can't argue about taste. I think the reasons you described for being a pc user are good ones. Usually mac users don't buy a mac because of the gaming but for the ease of use and stability.

You might argue that your pc is indeed stable and you know how to use it. Well, if it's okay for you then all right. My experiences haven't been so good. It got on my nerves, how often error messages popped up when I was just using the pc for normal tasks and how often an installation couldn't be finished because of hardware incompatibilties.

Still this hasn't become better, I think. At work, I get a special error message every day, which says something like "unexpected error". Well, as often as this one pops up, you can't call it unexpected any longer and that's what my collegues and me are joking about (grim humour). Also, my friends pc is shutting down suddenly since he installed something needed for his games. He couldn't find out yet, what he can do.

All these things make me feel I made the right choice when switching three years ago.

I have one question: What do you as a convinced pc user do on this site?

elusion
May 4, 2003, 07:55 AM
I am a very new mac user, having just switched in February with the purchase of my iBook. I'm 17 and have been using computers since I was like 6. I remember DOS, Apple IIes, Windows 3.1/95/98/ME/NT, Mac 8. I also spent a year using linux (Mandrake, Redhat, Debian) before going to a mac. I hate PCs.

You ask about hardware. That's not why I switched, though it was a nice bonus. I switched because of OS X.

I always use to be a Windows guy, from a Windows family. My brother's a MCSE. The previous experience I had with Apple was horrible. We had Apple's in our school computer lab, and they were crap. Nothing worked. Now I know that they weren't multitasking. I hated them with a passion and said I'd never use one.

Oh how things have changed. PCs have become the pieces of crap. Windows may be getting better with XP, but it's a different experience. Everything is just better with a Mac. Things just work, right away. I haven't used XP much, but I can tell you it doesn't work like this does.

Windows' interface sucks. Really it does. I'm sure you think the interface in MacOS X is horrible. It's not, it's different. And, it's better. It's easier just use, just because of the interface.

Windows' filesystem sucks. Unix machines have a much better filesystem -- none of the drive crap.

Windows software sucks. There is much less software for OS X than there is for XP. No one can deny that. Fortunately, the software for OS X is usually of a very high quality. It's very well designed and stable.

Windows' interoperability sucks. Windows runs on a huge variety of hardware, but that's noticible from the software. OS X just detects and sets up -- no wizards.

Really I don't expect you to believe this or anything. Maybe you will if you try using one. Things are going to be different for you because you use computers primarily for gaming. Maybe someday you'll end up switching to Linux because you don't like Windows. If you do, I almost guarentee you'll switch to Mac, because Linux's a pain to set up.

Oh, and getting away from Microsoft was good too. They are evil. Apple has potential to start a monopoly and become evil, but that's besides the point. Microsoft is doing things that are bad for the consumer. Wait and see.

dickrichie
May 4, 2003, 07:56 AM
Its about elegance and love. We dont just use our Macs they become friends and part of the family. We dont just look at them as computers but extensions of ourselves. No system is perfect but for us this is as close as we can get to perfection. So many of the things you said you can do on your Windows machine I dont doubt I just know we can do it easier and usually were able to do it well before you could. You mistake pride for bigotry. Yes I will admit that you can play more games than I can but thats what the PS2. gamecube and X box are for. About price, I agree the sticker shock is that the Mac is more expensive but when you look at what you get with it. especially in the video editing realm you start to realize that the windows side doesnt have anything anything to compare with it. Not without having to pay at least a few hundred dollars for. Sure you built your own machine but wheres the tech support or the warranty. Any of those parts go bad and you'll be replacing them yourself. Theres more cost built in to building than many people choose to admit. Fact is we all live in a world that runs on Windows machines. Office's are full of beige boxes that sometimes manage to get through a day of email and excel. What you may not think about is that while the penny pushers may move the money from place to place on a windows machine the marketing side usually gets the products sold on a Mac. Advertising firms and creative agencies that market the worlds products do it on a much more stable environment. So dont think of it as bigotry but instead a sense of pride that... well I saw a T-shirt on a guy in the Apple store on Friday night that said it best. "Its a Mac thing, you wouldnt understand"

markjs
May 5, 2003, 11:32 PM
I was drawn to this forum because I am interested in computers generally and macs almost qualify.....but seriously I poked around on a mac for about an hour today, and found that some things are less intuitive (minimizing and closing windows). Also I found that some things easily accessible in windows are not accessible at all in mac OSX. I felt like the computer was "dumbed down" for me. All in all it was a computer and pefectly capable internet machine, but at least in an hour nothing even came close to winning me ove. Oh yeah it also crashed once too.

Rower_CPU
May 5, 2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by markjs
I was drawn to this forum because I am interested in computers generally and macs almost qualify.....but seriously I poked around on a mac for about an hour today, and found that some things are less intuitive (minimizing and closing windows). Also I found that some things easily accessible in windows are not accessible at all in mac OSX. I felt like the computer was "dumbed down" for me. All in all it was a computer and pefectly capable internet machine, but at least in an hour nothing even came close to winning me ove. Oh yeah it also crashed once too.

Care to be more specific? It's easier to address your "problems" if you can tell us what kind of hardware you were on, what version of the OS it was running, and what types of things you were trying to do that were "more accessible" in Windows?

Regarding intuitiveness, it's tough to objectively say that one is more intuitive than the other unless you've never used a computer before. You have a prejudice for where things should be from using Windows, as we do from using Macs. You expect things to work the way they do in Windows, and if it doesn't, it's "not intuitive" to you, not necessarily to other people.

Steradian
May 6, 2003, 12:33 AM
There is a great sense of community with us Mac users, something that I love. I LOVE my mac, I use windoze all the time...it just dosen't work for me...I am a curse to PC's...I cause Blue Screen's of Death whereever I roam. When I do my Programing for Comp Sci @ my HS, I have to do a restart at least 4 times a week OY! But do understand that it is running Win95...So I can't blame the comp too much...I take all sorts of crap everyday from my PC using friends, who all bash apple. Reason? none...Yeah...

springscansing
May 6, 2003, 12:46 AM
It's very simple why we're mac biggots...

edit: not funny

And just for the record, you can run many flavors of linux on a mac as well.

I know that the PC can't run the audio apps I use, so I use a mac. Plain and simple.

Get a life man.. this is macrumors. What do you want us to do?

mim
May 6, 2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by markjs
I was drawn to this forum because I am interested in computers generally and macs almost qualify.....but seriously I poked around on a mac for about an hour today, and found that some things are less intuitive (minimizing and closing windows). Also I found that some things easily accessible in windows are not accessible at all in mac OSX. I felt like the computer was "dumbed down" for me. All in all it was a computer and pefectly capable internet machine, but at least in an hour nothing even came close to winning me ove. Oh yeah it also crashed once too.

I think you'll find that using Windows has become a habit - that's why you find it more intuitive. I know from experience that new computer users vastly prefer the mac environment. I used to tutor a couple of classes for CAD where many people hadn't used a computer before. We had both mac and windows machines. Some people prefered the windows machines - because that is what they were used to. I can't remember I new computer user who gravitated towards a pc, rather than a mac. Not only is the interface quite clear, but you're right - it seems dumbed down. Exactly what they wanted.

Now OSX is hardly a dumbed down system. It seems simple if you leave it alone. But you can call up a full unix shell very easily, and control many many things through the comand line interface. You also have Applescript - which is similar to Rexx in old unix environments - it allows you to script functions in the system and most programs very very easily. Very powerful. Nothing like it right out of the box in windows. And for true powerusers the c-prompt in windows is so un-itergrated with the main system that it's a real pain to use.

I can think of various things in Windows that are easily available - but shouldn't be. Like virtual memory setting, video settings, virtual devices, etc. I - now using computers for 20 years - have made the mistake of deleting the scsi device drivers in Windows. I mean, all my drive were IDE! Right? Wrong. The Scsi drivers were required to run the ATAPI layers which allow various software to read from the CD-drive! This kind of cr$p doesn't happen in osX. Everything that needs to be hidden away is. You can get to it, but you should never ever need to.

OSX is more stable. Not by much anymore, but enough that any serious sys admin would run a server using it rather than windows. That says a lot. OSX is more sophisticated in a number of important ways - you should read about Quartz Extreme (the graphics system). It uses some impressive technology (basically old - yes - similar to unix systems, but far more advanced than anything Windows has to offer).

It has saved my job on more than one occasion - things >work< in osX, even when they're on the edge of the capability of the machine...I've had jobs where the same process just crashed faster windows machines (this was mostly when dealing with large graphic files...).

Despite all this - the reason I love macs is the design. Where can you find cases like them in the pc world?! Not just good looks either - you should play with a power mac case...you can open the entire case to expose the motherboard fully without turning the damn thing off! I would have killed to find a PC case like that when I was repairing computers.

And don't forget the iApps either. Beautiful designed hardware, beautiful designed software. There is no equal to iTunes or iPhoto on windows. There is not. I have paid money for and been through literally hundereds of programs. Nothing can compare.

dickrichie is right - we are proud to use beautiful, efficient tools. That's what the mac is.

springscansing
May 6, 2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by markjs
I was drawn to this forum because I am interested in computers generally and macs almost qualify.....but seriously I poked around on a mac for about an hour today, and found that some things are less intuitive (minimizing and closing windows). Also I found that some things easily accessible in windows are not accessible at all in mac OSX. I felt like the computer was "dumbed down" for me. All in all it was a computer and pefectly capable internet machine, but at least in an hour nothing even came close to winning me ove. Oh yeah it also crashed once too.

Closing is very intuitive. You click the red close button. What's so hard about that? Same for minimize.. click the minimize button. If you honestly are having trouble with that, you're an idiot.

Dumbed down? You have command-line access via the Terminal. It's ****ing UNIX man. That's a lot more access than Windows gives you.

As for it crashing, you didn't say at all what version of X you were running or anything.

Macs "almost" qualify as computers? Yeah, okay.

Rower_CPU
May 6, 2003, 01:24 AM
Chill out, springscansing. Either this guy is a troll, and not worth it, or he's actually looking for discussion and not a flamefest.

Give him a chance.

springscansing
May 6, 2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Chill out, springscansing. Either this guy is a troll, and not worth it, or he's actually looking for discussion and not a flamefest.

Give him a chance.

Must bash troll, must bash troll!

Honestly, just looking for something to do while I debug this stupid ass program. Takes about 5 minutes between results, so I get boredish.

scem0
May 6, 2003, 08:09 PM
PCs are great. Macs, IMO, are better, but that is just opinion.
I am definitely not a mac bigot. I am a person who has used
both platforms extensively, have weighed their pro's and con's,
and like a mac more. I am currently running on a PC because
I couldn't afford a mac, which btw is the biggest downside to
macs - affordability. Does SJ really think that a 16 year old who
has to pay for his own computer will be able to afford a mac?
Yes, PCs are cheap (my computer is a testament to that), but
they are anything but perfect. The same goes for mac (well,
the anything but perfect part ;)).

Arguing which is better is stupid, pointless, and impossible. For
reasons like:
* There is no right or wrong opinion
* It depends what you grew up using
* Both have advantages to different people with different occupations
* Both have pro's and con's.

And mac users who say ignorant things because of their zealotry
annoy me just as much, if not more, than they do you, and vice
versa. As long as you acknowledge that both options have their
advantages, and both are better for different people, then I have
no problem. :)

lmalave
May 7, 2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by markjs
I was drawn to this forum because I am interested in computers generally and macs almost qualify.....but seriously I poked around on a mac for about an hour today, and found that some things are less intuitive (minimizing and closing windows). Also I found that some things easily accessible in windows are not accessible at all in mac OSX. I felt like the computer was "dumbed down" for me. All in all it was a computer and pefectly capable internet machine, but at least in an hour nothing even came close to winning me ove. Oh yeah it also crashed once too.

They're just different, but I don't see how you can say Windows is more intuitive than OS X. Minimizing and closing apps? OS X Windows have the same 3 freakin' buttons (minimize, maximize, close), but they're on the top left corner instead of the top right corner. Also, keyboard shortcuts are in general more intuitive and uniform on the Mac. For example, command-Q will quit your program. Closing a window doesn't actually quit the program, maybe that's what you're referring to?

And as far as OS X being dumbed down. Hello? It's a Unix machine! I consider myself an alpha geek or close to it, and I have 10x more power on my Mac than on any Windows machine. It's Windows that's dumbed down. Everything's a black box. I can't even kill a program if it's hanging. I keep going to Task Manager and clicking "End Task" over and over and over and over and it just won't quit. What's up with that? On my iBook everything just works like it's supposed to to a much greater degree than on my PCs.

As Rower asked, what exactly were you trying to find on the Mac that made you think it was "dumbed down"? It might be in a different place. You're just very used to the Windows interface. That doesn't mean the Mac is "dumbed down".

jelloshotsrule
May 7, 2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by scem0
Does SJ really think that a 16 year old who
has to pay for his own computer will be able to afford a mac?

i agree that macs could be cheaper... but your reasoning isn't exactly perfect... i mean, does mr. bmw think that a 17 year old who just got his license and has to buy his own car can afford a bmw?

you get the point.

i know it's not the same, but yeah. word.

scem0
May 7, 2003, 10:59 PM
well, I think computers should be affordable to the average (or
not so average - ie me) consumer. I don't know. I guess I just
mean 'the cheaper, the better', which is painfully obvious, but
I think it is the foremost problem with apple computer, and should
be tackled even before the speed gap.

Thom_Edwards
May 7, 2003, 11:22 PM
don't take this the wrong way, but these "biggots" you speak of are a lot like the born-again christians that corner you at the coffee machine trying to get you to go to church with them. (in fact, i even remember a mac fac site called "evangelista"!) macs offer simplicity, stability, and peace of mind--we do not have to travel through the blue screen of death, because the mac is with us! most of us, at one time, were just like you, using those evil windoze machines. but now "we have seen the light!" and can't possibly imagine how you could continue in your suffering. you don't know the peace you could have if you just gave the mac a chance. do you see the metaphor here?
and one thing many windoze people say is, "if macs are so much better, why only 5% market share?" well, christianity started with less market share than that, and it is certainly better than baal or ishtar, just to name a few!

and just for the record, i am a mac biggot. would you like to come over sunday? i can show you how to use iMovie!!!!:D

PS-like i said, i mean no offense by this. in fact, i tried to tie some humor into this, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Thom_Edwards
May 7, 2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by markjs

What I am getting at by this post, is why are Mac people so biggoted against the PC. Another guy made a post somewhere else about how maybe one in fifteen PC users is anti Mac, but more like one in two Mac users is anti PC. What can a Mac user do that I can't? I do audio and video editing on my PC, I can't think of anything a Mac can do my computer can't (and I'll wager I'll do anything cheaper, and being poor that's a serious consideration to me), and what is the big draw to the Mac. I realize this isn't the best forum for a two sided debate, but I am thowing it out there anyway.


this has gotten me worked up.... sorry if i'm rambling....

first, i don't think they've ported applescript to win32 yet. and don't give me any stupid batch command or windows script host nonsense. i've used them and it's not even close to the same.

second, please name a few things you can do on a pc that i can't on my mac. and once again, don't come up with some obscure program that your dad uses at the office. the exact same app (meaning the name) may not exist, but i promise you there is an app that does the same thing and probably better. e.g., final cut pro, which is a whole other ball of wax that i won't get into. (there certainly is *no* reason it's the most popular program of its type.)

third, what is it exactly you do with your pc? gaming and internet access? get a playstation and webtv, for crying out loud! it would be cheaper than your pc, mainly because you don't have to pay the microsoft tax/license. do some development--programming, graphic design, making porn, whatever--and you will find the mac is better at it.

fourth, you mention something about the hardware, and asked what it is about the hardware. well, for one it's just plain sexy. but it's obviously not about the hardware. the hardware is the just-won't-ever-die icing on the cake. (bought this baby in august '98. do the math and i bet my computer is cheaper than yours on a month by month basis.)

i use both pc and mac. the pc because i have to. woops, the pc can do something my mac can't??? yeah, serve extremely proprietary active server pages. (too bad my clients don't know about php yet....) but i promise you this, the only time my pc monitor is not asleep is when it is rebooting because of the 5th security update for windows media player this week.

i'm done, i think. have a great day!

LimeLite
May 7, 2003, 11:46 PM
What I am getting at by this post, is why are Mac people so biggoted against the PC. Another guy made a post somewhere else about how maybe one in fifteen PC users is anti Mac, but more like one in two Mac users is anti PC.

1/15 PC Users X 95% Market Share = 6.3% of total market.

1/2 Mac Users X 5% Market Share = 2.5% of total market.

If your assumption of this is right, then...

Conclusion: There are more bigotted PC Users than there are bigotted Mac Users. :D

wsteineker
May 8, 2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by LimeLite
1/15 PC Users X 95% Market Share = 6.3% of total market.

1/2 Mac Users X 5% Market Share = 2.5% of total market.

If your assumption of this is right, then...

Conclusion: There are more bigotted PC Users than there are bigotted Mac Users. :D

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Hell yeah! Use math to combat the troll! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! :D:D:D

voicegy
May 8, 2003, 12:30 AM
Bigot, Schmigot.....

Another circular discussion on Mac vs. PC that will never win over anyone and most certainly will never come to any rational conclusions...might as well talk about Apples and, well, Oranges.

It really is what someone here said earlier...either you get it or you don't. That has nothing to do with "bigotry" or Christian-like zealot behaviour, although I admit it does exist. (What Dell, IBM, Gateway and all the rest of them wouldn't GIVE to have such brand loyalty, by the way!) Nor does it have to do with PC's "sucking" and Macs "being better" and all the rest.

The Apple brand of products simply "speak" to a part of us who are Mac users. Nothing less, nothing more. We're appreciators of fine design, ergonomics, cutting edge thinking, and the romance of the history of Apple. If there is a part of you that goes to a museum and sees a piece of art that "touches" you in some way, that's the part that is touched by this company. It really is almost unexplainable...and by the statement "you either get it or you don't", it really is meant in the most kindest manner...don't read it as "You're a PeeCee idiot and you just don't understand..." (although out of sheer frustration for always having to feel we have to, or even NEED to, defend ourselves, I can understand such vitrol statements coming from some of our brothers and sisters) the Apple "experience" really does just "fit" in with a part of our being.

And that experience is something you "get" or you "don't". No more, no less... you're not "better" than us, and neither are we "better" than you. And that, my dear PC friend, is the hardest thing to explain of all.:)

Peace, out.

Sedulous
May 8, 2003, 01:56 AM
he he, yeah.

I wonder if the difference is entirely due to the end user "group". Generally speaking, Mac users are more educated/free thinking types.

mactastic
May 22, 2003, 09:52 AM
Hey, who cares? Enjoy your pc, if it works for you thats great. I'll be interested to see how you feel about the "almost computer" after the 970 release... or the dual 970's...

sethwerkheiser
May 22, 2003, 10:23 AM
I'm just tired of family members asking me to help fix their Windows machines all the time. Blue screens, fatal errors, etc. etc. I mean, I've been using Windows machines since around 1993. Imagine my inlaws and parents, who arent so adept at using computers (you mean theres other browsers than INTERNET EXPLORER?!!?), and trying to get past blue screens, mouse conflicts, fatal errors, etc.

So now we're "switching" tommorow... a shiney new iBook will be mine tommorow night. I just hope to show those around me "the light"! hahaha... so then I'll have less "can you fix my computer?!" phone calls. hehe

iJon
May 22, 2003, 10:24 AM
well until i have friendly user interface, imovie to edit my movies, final cut pro to my more experinced work, idvd for my easy to do dvds, and dvd studio pro, itunes for my music, stability which i dont get in windows xp, a laptop that looks as good as it functions i may be all windows. the ONE thing i hate about windows is when it screws up i gotta format and start over, with my mac i can put in the cd, hold down the c key, and reinstall the system while all my stuff is un touched. me switching to completly to mac has a much shorter list than my list to switch completly to pc. if my mac gets the games i play i will no longer have a pc.

iJon

iJon
May 22, 2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by scem0
PCs are great. Macs, IMO, are better, but that is just opinion.
I Does SJ really think that a 16 year old who
has to pay for his own computer will be able to afford a mac?
yeah i think so. i am 17 and i buy my own computers. its called a job and i have one. luckily, i have a job that is easy, fun, and pays well. i find most of my friends who dont have jobs are just lazy.

iJon

chicagdan
May 22, 2003, 11:04 AM
Why don't you guys just answer the question -- it's pretty simple. I have to use a PC at work and I keep an old one around for some text-based sports games not available on the Mac. But I prefer Mac because:

1) There's nothing in the PC market remotely similar to my 17" widescreen iMac. If you haven't used one, you can't appreciate it's incredible design and beauty.

2) I don't have to pay extra for basic software required to do most of what I do on a computer -- iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, etc., all free with Mac OS-X. The Windows equivalents are awful.

3) My Mac crashes very rarely, every PC I've ever used crashes at least once a week and requires a new installation of the OS every six months or so just to clean up the garbage.

4) With a Mac, I don't have to download and install a new patch from MS every few days to close a security vulnerability.

5) Add something to a Mac and you know it will work without having to hunt down drivers.

6) When you own a Mac, you feel like you're carrying a great set of golf clubs around a Country Club, not lugging a toolbox in a dark basement. The Mac community is probably the strongest argument in favor of its continued, unlikely survival.

ColoJohnBoy
May 22, 2003, 11:28 AM
As I write this, I am sitting at my parent's old Compaq Presario 5000, with 750 MHz AMD Duron, 576 MB RAM, 30 GB Hard Drive, and 64 MB NVidia GeForce 2 card (Most of it I have upgraded myself) and running Windows XP Home. I have used PCs for about ten years now. I am familiar with them, I know exactly where to find everthing on them, how to fix everything on them.... I know how everything works, even in XP. Yet Last June, I switched to Mac. Why?

1) Design. PC computers are just hideous. Really, they're simply not attractive to look at. The only one that comes glose is Gateway's All-In-One computer. But even that is no iMac. Apple computers really are beautiful. They're simple, graceful, and durable.

2) Mac OS X. Like I said, I know every Windows OS inside and out, having used every iteration of it for ten years. Yet I prefer OS X. Just like the physical design of the computer, OS X is simple, graceful, and durable. What some might perceive as "dumbed down" I see as rid of the unneecessary aspects that all but a small fraction of the computer user population use. It's clear and straightforward, and never have I experienced any problems with it. I admit, it has crashed twice. But both times it was because I was trying to run a severly faulty program. That's two crashes in one year. I'm lucky if I can make it through one day without having Windows (Yes, even XP) crash twice.

3) iApps. I've been using my parents computer lately, and looking for a good MP3 program to use while I do. I've been spoilt by iTunes. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, for PCs that works as well as iTunes. I've been using MusicMatch, but after iTunes it seems clunky, redundant, and difficult to use. Dare I say, unintuitive.

4) Health. I have enough headaches in my life already. I don't need even the small stresses that crashes, program errors, and unintuitive programs cause. I don't stress out when I'm using my Macs. It's like electronic aspirin.

I admit to bashing Pcs. But I must defend myself by saying that I use them enough to be entitled to such bashing. For me, Macs are better, and I bash them with good reason.

That, and bashing PCs is just fun ;)



Visit http://bluepudding.1hwy.com

dhdave
May 24, 2003, 11:15 PM
I am a child of the eighties, well really a teenager, but anyway, my freshman year of college (1987) all I wanted was a Macintosh Plus. It was THE computer to have. For me. Everyone else was drooling over 8088's but I was drooling over the Mac. That's what I wanted. I never did get it, (until last year that is) but the seed was planted.

I went on to own 286, 386, 486 , pentium, k62, and pentium III machines. I loved that I could build a machine myself and decide what went into it. I've built every machine I have used since 1998 (before that I just bought 'em). Despite the freedom I've grown tired of it. There is nothing worse than spending 600-1000 on a new setup only to have something not work with something else. Be it video drivers, or a nic. etc. I began looking and drooling over macs again when the iMac came out. Amelio's beige boxes did absolutely nothing for me. But when Steve came back, WOAH!

I was thrilled when windows xp came out. I beta tested windows Me and watched it go from super stable to a high overhead crash-prone mess. Beta testing XP I thought that MS had finally gotten it right. But I quickly realized they hadn't. The windows registry is the weakest link on my system. It becomes increasingly unstable over time (just like windows 9x) and eventually brings the whole system down. To fix it, I've got to reformat and start over. I have learned to partition my drive so everything that I wouldn't want to lose is in it's own partition away from the OS. With OS X, that practice is a thing of the past.

I have also tried linux and liked it, though I found the learning curve very daunting. (the feeling of accomplishment when all was up and running was great, though--anyone remember trying to get your soundblaster to work?? Make?, bash?....whew) When I first read about OS X it got my attention. I watched the quicktime videos of the dock and minimizing a window etc. Then I used it. Finally somebody really had gotten it right. And not for the eye candy. You can be incredibly productive with just the GUI or you can fully exploit the command line. It's as powerful as you wish it to be.

Because I have gone back to school to become a programmer, I will keep my pc around for the occasional time when I can't get virtual pc to run a program on my Mac or when running a program is just too slow. But that's the only reason. I gladly left the windows world and I haven't looked back. I'm glad to finally be where I should have been all those years ago.

--dh

alset
May 24, 2003, 11:53 PM
Realize that we are often targeted by PC users first. We are a minority, and as such we band together. Some of the group may go a little overboard, but you must understand that we have been persecuted for years. When the rest of the world gave up on Apple (remember that Wired cover with the Apple wrapped in barbed wire and the word "Pray"?), we stood fast and kept up our faith in a company that has delivered time and again.

Dan

thekaiser
May 25, 2003, 12:29 AM
Ok here is the deal. One can claim that it is cheaper to build a PC. This is true for the most part. However, if you look at Dell or other companies they include software. If you build one you must purchase your own. I would bet, that this guy did not buy XP (I could be wrong) or Office XP or any of his software. Speaking as an ex-PC user I know I didn't. Granted, you have to buy Office for the Mac, Appleworks is pretty good for the average user. But, IMHO building your own PC is not drastically cheaper than a Mac if you do it all legally. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

When it comes to owning a Mac, I own one not because I hate PC's. I own a Mac because I think it is better technology with more potential that has not even been reached. As an engineer myself, I consider it important to support better technology even if it is not the cheapest solution. If everyone just says hey if it isn't broke don't fix it...we would still have to put up with a less worthy product. People must be willing to support better technology or products with the potential to be great. If not good things die and we are all the losers. Just my 2 cents.

Ryan1524
May 25, 2003, 11:52 PM
i'm just curious about all the people that stated how PCs are troublesome when we're adding hardwares. after i installed XP, i did not even installed any driver and everything was recognized as soon as i plugged them in and working in no time, from keyboards, mouses, to routers, scanners, graphics cards, printers, digital cameras. i had the drivers ready, expecting the onslaught of hardware setup wizard typical of 98, but instead, there's the little pop up box near the system tray that stated that these hardwares have been recognized, drivers installed, and ready for use. and sure enough, they are. as for the hardware incompatibilities, remember that PC hardwares and softwares are made by two different companies, while any apple computers ae assembled and prepared by on company who manufactured both. therefore, they KNOW what their software needs in order for them to work perfectly.

macktheknife
May 26, 2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Ryan1524
i'm just curious about all the people that stated how PCs are troublesome when we're adding hardwares. after i installed XP, i did not even installed any driver and everything was recognized as soon as i plugged them in and working in no time, from keyboards, mouses, to routers, scanners, graphics cards, printers, digital cameras. i had the drivers ready, expecting the onslaught of hardware setup wizard typical of 98, but instead, there's the little pop up box near the system tray that stated that these hardwares have been recognized, drivers installed, and ready for use. and sure enough, they are. as for the hardware incompatibilities, remember that PC hardwares and softwares are made by two different companies, while any apple computers ae assembled and prepared by on company who manufactured both. therefore, they KNOW what their software needs in order for them to work perfectly.

I use Macs and PCs (running XP and NT) on a regular basis. Hardware recognition ("Plug and Play") is definitely better on the Mac. However, agree almost 100% with you that Windows XP has gotten much better in recognizing hardware. Through continued industry standardization, Windows is bound to get better with recognizing hardware.

wsteineker
May 26, 2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Ryan1524
i'm just curious about all the people that stated how PCs are troublesome when we're adding hardwares. after i installed XP, i did not even installed any driver and everything was recognized as soon as i plugged them in and working in no time, from keyboards, mouses, to routers, scanners, graphics cards, printers, digital cameras. i had the drivers ready, expecting the onslaught of hardware setup wizard typical of 98, but instead, there's the little pop up box near the system tray that stated that these hardwares have been recognized, drivers installed, and ready for use. and sure enough, they are. as for the hardware incompatibilities, remember that PC hardwares and softwares are made by two different companies, while any apple computers ae assembled and prepared by on company who manufactured both. therefore, they KNOW what their software needs in order for them to work perfectly.
Ok, here's a nightmare for you just to illustrate the kind of headaches we're talking about. First, let me start by saying that I upgraded my Cube from OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.1 all the way through 10.2.4 with no problems, and that I recently installed a Pioneer A05 DVD-R/RW in my Quicksilver tower without so much as a hiccup. So on to my Windows XP hell...

Here's the deal. I was running a Dell with Windows 98 SE, all updates and service packs installed. The system specs were as follows: 1.2 GHz P4, 1 GB RDRAM, 80 GB HD, DVD ROM (all stock) and a Geforce 3 Ti and Sony CDRW (upgrades). Everything was hunky dory, but I was wondering what this new Microsoft OS was about. A buddy of mine is an IT admin and was just RAVING about the thing, so I figured I'd give it a try. His company bought XP on a corporate license (without the hardware registration and activation, and with one token serial for the entire company) so he gave me a copy just to try out. I appreciatively installed it on my machine which well outpaced the recommended minimum config, and got to work. The install crashed twice, but I managed to get past that.

Once I had successfully installed, I realized that everything was running well. I went to the prefs pane to take care of that Fisher-Price My First Interface (TM), and everything was fantastic. It really was more stable, though not so much so that I never crashed at all. In fact, I still crashed once a day, but that was so much of an improvement over 98 that I didn't complain. The only real problem I had for the better part of a month was that every time something went south the machine asked me if I wished to send an error report to Microsoft. Ugh.

So things are great for around 3 weeks when all of the sudden my CDR just stops working. Seriously, just like that. I wake up, boot, and BOOM! It's gone. It's not in My Computer, and I can't use it at all. It's visible in the BIOS, and it's obviously drawing power, but XP just decided that it wasn't welcome anymore. I got in touch with Sony after I was unable to find an XP driver on their site, and they told me that XP didn't actually need drivers. They recommended trying the 2000 Pro driver. That didn't work either, so I called Microsoft. They recommended a reformat. To this day they have no idea what went wrong. No service pack has been able to fix this, and it cost me countless hours (on top of those already detailed) to remove the HD, install it as a slave on a 2000 machine (because it was NTFS formatted) and recover my data to 65 individual CDs. What a nightmare.

My experience may be atypical, but from talking to friends and reading the horror stories here I've come to doubt it. Simply put, XP really is the best OS Microsoft has ever produced (except for 2000 Pro, but we're quibbling). That being said, being a higher grade piece of ***** doesn't count for much. It's still a piece of ***** after all, and it's still got more buggy code than it does functional code. Since I switched to the Mac my life has been simpler. Period. End of story. Even when using OS 9 I never experienced horrors like this. OS X has been a breeze since 10.1 on 3 year old hardware. When was the last time someone could say that about ANY Microsoft OS? Seriously, the only hardware problems I've had at all on my Mac were directly related to bad memory, and that's not the fault of the OS. That's why we bitch and moan about Windows, my friend. That's why. :)

wsteineker
May 26, 2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by macktheknife
I use Macs and PCs (running XP and NT) on a regular basis. Hardware recognition ("Plug and Play") is definitely better on the Mac. However, agree almost 100% with you that Windows XP has gotten much better in recognizing hardware. Through continued industry standardization, Windows is bound to get better with recognizing hardware.
Yes, but that's just the industry bending to MS's will, not Microsoft actually producing a quality product. That's what's so frustrating here!

beatle888
May 26, 2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by markjs
I poked around on a mac for about an hour today, and found that some things are less intuitive (minimizing and closing windows).

ok so let me get this straight, youve been using a PC for a while right? and you go poke around on a mac for an hour and you say its less intuitive?

this is silly, youve grown acustome to windows thats all, cant you see that? things feel different on the mac. yet you made your decision based on an hour of poking around on the mac? thats really not a fair comparision.

havent you ever had a favorite application that you used all the time. then, you came across another app that did the same thing but differently and you hated it the first time you used it? yet after learning the new app you realized it was better?

im shaking my head that you couldnt see that it was your comfort with windows that threw you off. but hey, the windows is just fine im sure, so no worries.

solvs
May 26, 2003, 03:48 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wsteineker
[B]So things are great for around 3 weeks when all of the sudden my CDR just stops working. Seriously, just like that. I wake up, boot, and BOOM! It's gone. [B]

No kidding! My Mom's XP did the same thing. Sony's answer? Reformat and reinstall.

This debate could (and will) go on forever. I consider myself a cross-platform guy. Pretty knowledgeable about tech stuff. I just got done posting a WinTel vs. Apple comment in another forum.

It all boils down to this:

I'm building a new PC out of some spare parts and a few upgrades... to play around with. To use for some stuff. And no, not games. Some legal software (I'm not paying twice).

But I'm saving up to buy a nice Mac in a few months (come on 970) to use. To work on. Audio/Video/Imaging. I know you can do those on a PC. But why would you want to?

I mean, really. Why?

I'd rather have secure and acurate than cheap and (sometimes) a little more speed.

Ryan1524
May 26, 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by wsteineker
Ok, here's a nightmare for you just to illustrate the kind of headaches we're talking about. First, let me start by saying that I upgraded my Cube from OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.1 all the way through 10.2.4 with no problems, and that I recently installed a Pioneer A05 DVD-R/RW in my Quicksilver tower without so much as a hiccup. So on to my Windows XP hell...
<snip>

wow. that sounds pretty bad. but i 'think' your experience is isolated, or at least represents only a small portion of XP users, proper XP users.

let me tell you my story with M$ to give you the idea why i'm quite appreciative of XP.
i started with 3.1, on to 95, 98, 2000, ME (what were they smoking), etc... i've been living on computers all my life and folowed M$'s development (or lack of - for that matter).
my nightmares was very evident on 98. nothing worked and i had to do everything manually. good thing i was quite patient and know what i'm doing. but after 2 years of W98-SE on a P3 750, 40GB hdd and 512MB ram and 32MB Riva TNT2 (i'm always a step behind, i'm not made of money.. :p), it's staring to go bad, like a plate of food that slowly rots away. at the end, my computing experience with 98 is as follows: 1 out of 5 boot tries will succeed (not just stuck on the startup screen). 1 out of 5 of those succesfull boot ups wil allow me to use the computer, instead of crashing as soon as i move the mouse, which brings me back to trying to get the computer to start for me.

i was sick of it and my friend easily talked me into installing XP after i persisted not to for over 3 months since release. i did a clean install after backing up my data and it worked like a charm. it's been two years now and my computer's been doing great, i only have to restart it every month or so, sometimes i can go two months without restarting. but the past couple of months, as the plate's rotting away, i have to restart every 3 days or so. to avoid a system crash. thankfully, it's just a freeze-up and no data is lost during these periodic crashes (knock on wood). other than the 3 day crash thing, it's never given me problems. so i'm quite satisfied. my appreciation might have come from using a better OS after the 98 hell, but i think XP is in itself a good OS, not the best, but good enough. for now at least. :) ;)

scem0
May 30, 2003, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by iJon
yeah i think so. i am 17 and i buy my own computers. its called a job and i have one. luckily, i have a job that is easy, fun, and pays well. i find most of my friends who dont have jobs are just lazy.

iJon

What I am saying is - if SJ wants to sell his computer to the sub 20-year-old community, he better get his prices down. Because even though I could work my tail off at work, and earn enough money to buy a mac, a mac still might not be worth it. For example, if apple sold a dual 1.5 GHz 970 in addition to the current line-up for $10,000, it still wouldn't be worth $10,000 for me because that equates to ~1,170 hours of work for me. If I was a extremely well off person, and money wasn't an issue, the computer would be worth the money.

So, basically what I am saying is Apple needs to get down their prices in order to sell their high end systems to people who want them but don't have the highest paycheck.

jefhatfield
Jun 11, 2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by markjs
I am a confirmed PC user, you might call me a PC biggot because I will defend my PC preference to the death. Primarily I like the PC because of it's gaming ability, combined with internet access, and the fact I could afford it and am able to build and upgrade it myself cheaply while still buying high quality parts. My PC is a modest:

Athlon XP 1700+
ECS K7S5A Mainboard
512MB PC2100
SB Live Value
Onboard Lan
ATI Radeon 8500LE 64MB
Realtek PCI NIC
Western Digital 40GB and 20GB 7200RPM ATA 100 hard disks
Running Windows XP Professional Service pack 1

What I am getting at by this post, is why are Mac people so biggoted against the PC. Another guy made a post somewhere else about how maybe one in fifteen PC users is anti Mac, but more like one in two Mac users is anti PC. What can a Mac user do that I can't? I do audio and video editing on my PC, I can't think of anything a Mac can do my computer can't (and I'll wager I'll do anything cheaper, and being poor that's a serious consideration to me), and what is the big draw to the Mac. I realize this isn't the best forum for a two sided debate, but I am thowing it out there anyway.

Note: I really don't want to hear how Windows sucks, because the newest version is very easily useable and quite stable and I personally know at least one person who likes Windows XP as much as OSX and uses both regularly. Granted Win 98 was a steaming pile o' dog doo and so was ME, but since 2K Windows has been very viable. Another thing to consider is that Windows is written to work on hundreds....even thousands of hardware configurations, when Mac OS needs to work on maybe 10.....That itself aquits even Windows 95 rather nicely. Besides I can run Linux or other flavors of Unix on my PC should I choose. My inquiry is about the hardware....why do you love it so much it makes you hate PC's

PS I know two people who have switched from Mac personally, so it goes both ways.

it really comes down to preference and today, the computer user has a choice between two stable operating systems...os x and windows xp

on the mac side, os 9 had its issues of not being able to recover from a crash of an application while windows 2000 had a weak hardware compatibility list and was not always friendly with graphics related/game related software

there seems to be very little difference between pc hardware and apple hardware...the big issue of why people like macs are in the overall experience of how the mac os interfaces with the user

in the dark days of windows me and of some versions of windows 95, the mac people really had a point when they said their macs were easier to use

ps - i will admit that macs are much prettier to look at, but alien pcs and some sony gear comes close to being just as cool as a mac

still, the pc world doesn't have something quite as sleek and cool as the lcd imac or the cube

as for laptops, i think macs and pcs are basically the same in looks since the mobile macs are basically either silver or white and very square looking...fujitsu makes some laptops which look very much like the current ibook...but the fujitsu laptops came out before the ibook, *dual usb icebook design that apple now uses

i do love my old style clamshell ibook and i miss the fact that apple does not seem to have a playful laptop like that in their line

i would like to see apple make at least one laptop line and one desktop line with colored plastic again

whooleytoo
Jun 11, 2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by markjs
I do audio and video editing on my PC, I can't think of anything a Mac can do my computer can't (and I'll wager I'll do anything cheaper, and being poor that's a serious consideration to me), and what is the big draw to the Mac. I realize this isn't the best forum for a two sided debate, but I am thowing it out there anyway.


You're absolutely right, for gaming in particular, PCs have the performance edge, and are generally cheaper, for sure.

Advantages of the Mac include: Good build quality, FireWire as standard (for DV cameras especially), better plug and play support (I use a PC mouse and a PC bluetooth adapter without installing any drivers, whereas on my PC, I did), far better bluetooth support (a BIG plus for my Nokia 7650 and I), iTunes Music Store, good server options even on OSX client (web, ftp, Mac, Unix, Windows; firewall, internet sharing etc), easy to use photo and movie import/edit apps (for free), etc..etc..

At the end of the day, it's personal preference, try both for a while, and use whichever you prefer.

Mike.

macgroove
Jun 11, 2003, 06:27 AM
Using Apple is not only about hardware, software and innovative design
Apple is a lifestyle!

GulGnu
Jun 11, 2003, 03:17 PM
Well, I formally switched today (my iBook arrived) - and I must say I am very impressed with the Mac. It feels like a quality build, and OS X feels better overall than Windows XP. (I think XP is a pretty good OS btw)

I went with the iBook because it was a pretty good value notebook, especially after recent price drops here in Europe. I don't think I qualify as a Mac zealot quite yet though... We'll see how the 'book holds up in a few weeks =P

/GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!