90nm 970's?

[MacRumors]

MacBidouille posts (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-05-04#5424) an English translation of their latest rumor posting, hinting at PowerBook processors coming from Apple:

IBM engineers are going to work hard in order to have the PPC 970 at 90nm ready for the end of this year in East Fishkill's laboratories. These processors will eventually replace PowerBooks' G4s.

MacBidouille has been particularly vocal about upcoming PowerPC 970 rumors with shipment of 970 enabled machines expected as early as WWDC. Their history of rumor accuracy has been variable, with both significant hits (Leaked PowerMac Pics (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/07/20020722000753.shtml)) and misses (4-6 Processor Macs (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/05/20020508223037.shtml), AMD and Apple Rumors Part II (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/11/20021121194601.shtml)).

[Snowy_River]

So is this suggesting that we aren't going to see any updates to the PowerBooks until the end of the year? Or are they going to somehow manage to get an impossibly hot speed bumped G4 into the PowerBooks?

[MacFan25]

If new processors are in Powerbooks by the end of the year, then this really will be the "year of the notebook".

[Freg3000]

MacBidouille (is) either:
1) Smoking crack.
2) Knows something that will make us all really really happy. :)

How can they being spewing all of this all the time unless they knew something? It seems to me like a really big risk to blow your reputation over this.

[Mr.Hey]

970 PB would be amazing and the second Apple Computer that I would purchase. Apple has the software position covered and all it needs now is the hardware. COME ON PPC 970.

[MrMacMan]

Sweet!

Bring the 970's on!

[GigaWire]

oh c'mon.

[Veldek]

Let's start into another round...

Well, assuming processors will be here in late 2003, then the machines won't be available before Q1 2004 (and I'd rather bet on Q2). That's still a long time to go...

[pyrotoaster]

It's obvious that the G4 can't get much faster, at least without turning your Powerbook into hot plate

Low power 970's would be better processors, and would have faster clock speeds (and with any luck they won't give you second degree burns). Win-Win.

BTW, my 300th Post! Just 200 more until I can get an Avatar! :D

[nuckinfutz]

The 1.1volt 1.2Ghz PPC 970 can be used now in a Powerbook. Would Apple wait this long?

[Grimace]

970s for Powermacs at WWDC.
970s for Powerbooks at Christmas...

which makes WWDC like Christmas in...June

[pyrotoaster]

Unless Apple updates the Powerbook sometime soon, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 970 model at least announced at WWDC.

[Rower_CPU]

"First posts" are pointless and are not condoned on this forum. Please refrain from posting them, and report those who do.

[iJon]

i have two questions, i havent read all the specifics on the 970. if they made a laptop version, would it be cooler, and would it consumer less power to make better battery life.

iJon

[MacManiac1224]

This sounds about right. MacBidouille said that they 970's are coming out at WWDC, or maybe even late this month, and now they are saying that IBM is readying 970's for Powerbook use at the end of the year. All this sounds right on target, I think MacBidouille has a mole, and most of this info should come out right. It sounds right to me

Also, iJon, the IBM 970 for Powerbooks would be the same used in Powermacs, but using a 90nm process would then mean that the new chips wopuld give off less heat. Heat is a big issue in powerbooks. Otherwise they are the same chips.

[rice_web]

Why the recent commotion of the 970 in a PowerBook, with the 970 not even necessarily a "lock" for the PowerMacs (we could just as easily see upgraded G4s).

I'll take this rumor with the understanding that the 970 could still be a long way off.

[JesseJames]

Aye lad. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
It's obvious that the G4 can't get much faster, at least without turning your Powerbook into hot plate

As I understand it, the main source of heat inside a Mac laptop is the hard drive, not the CPU.

My old iBook, with a modest 500 MHz G3, still got scorching hot after a period of continuous use thanks to the hard drive.

[evoluzione]

sounds great to me :)

and the timing makes sense, new powermacs at wwdc followed by powerbooks 6 months later. why not?

and the g4 has been around for waaaay too long now, whatever chip ends up in the next gen mac, it better be here soon, or it'll be a quark type situation before long...speaking of which, will quark need to be rewritten in 64bit? oh boy

[evoluzione]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
As I understand it, the main source of heat inside a Mac laptop is the hard drive, not the CPU.

My old iBook, with a modest 500 MHz G3, still got scorching hot after a period of continuous use thanks to the hard drive.


yeah i'd go with that, my old 300mhz wallstreet used to get really hot after a while, too hot to touch underneath anyways.

[hvfsl]

I just have to remind people that Apple has made a few silly desisions over its history and Apple may still not be going with the PPC970. Or even if it using the PPC970, it could just be for the PRO computers and the G4 might be the new comsumer chip.

[iSmell]

Originally posted by evoluzione
yeah i'd go with that, my old 300mhz wallstreet used to get really hot after a while, too hot to touch underneath anyways.

Yeah, but when the Wallstreet came out, 300MHz was still fast. At any given point, the fastest chips available run hot. If they didn't, they would crank up the power and speed until they did.

That said, it is still true that HDs generate heat. However, there are laptops in existance that have hard drives and also do not get scorchingly hot. So logically, it must be more than just the hard drives that make laptops hot. There are a lot of factors, but the CPU is defintely a big one.






Not first post.

[Fender2112]

I got a hunch that the next thing we see will be the 15" Power Book with the 970.

I think other folks have made the same suggestion. Here are the things that point to this:

1) Steve says this is the year or the notebooks.
1.5) Steve also mentioned something about note books replacing the desktop Mac in the home.
2) We all feel confident that the 970 will be introduced at WWDC. Maybe before.
3) The systems shipping from Taiwan (or whereever it is) are reported to be single processor.
4) The 15" Power Book is overdue for an upgrade.

Summary: The mid level Power Book is due for an upgrade and the 970 is so close we can smell it. If the heat and power issues are resolved, why not introduce the 970 in a Power Book?

I will also suggest that the 15" PB, the mid level PB, will sport a 16:10 screen. This would give Apple's entire Power line, except the 12" PB, a 16:10 screen.

The catch is that once the 970 is released, regardless of the model, Apple will have to quickly upgrade all their products. The G3's and G4's will not sell well once the 970 comes out.

That's all there is and there is no more.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
As I understand it, the main source of heat inside a Mac laptop is the hard drive, not the CPU.

My old iBook, with a modest 500 MHz G3, still got scorching hot after a period of continuous use thanks to the hard drive.
Given that may be true, but (and I seem to be saying this alot lately) correct me if I'm wrong, but heat is more of an issue with the processor than with the HD, isn't it? I don't believe the issue at play here is with the overall heat of the machine (even if it does get plenty hot), but with trying not to release the magic smoke from the processor while including as much power as possible.

BTW, you seem to have the same name as my Jr. High computer teacher. Weird. [Edit: It was Steve, not Jeff]
Originally posted by hvfsl
I just have to remind people that Apple has made a few silly desisions over its history and Apple may still not be going with the PPC970. Or even if it using the PPC970, it could just be for the PRO computers and the G4 might be the new comsumer chip.
Oh, please god, no...besides, I think it's pretty clear Apple is going to sever their relationship with Motorola ASAP, so depending on the G4 in the new product line would delay that. That law suit we've heard rumor may just be a way to sue their way out of contract for purchase of G4s, not necessarily for money.

[Grimace]

The introduction of the 970s doesn't necessarily mean that all other processors will tank. The Dual 1.42 G4s haven't stopped people from buying iMacs and eMacs - depending on your need and $$$ situation, a G4 may be the "inexpensive alternative" (projecting 6 months into 970 arrivals.)

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by carletonmusic
The introduction of the 970s doesn't necessarily mean that all other processors will tank. The Dual 1.42 G4s haven't stopped people from buying iMacs and eMacs - depending on your need and $$$ situation, a G4 may be the "inexpensive alternative" (projecting 6 months into 970 arrivals.)

Yeah, but no one wants to spend a premium on something when they can spend the same amount of money on a computer that will be newer, shinier, and twice as fast in a few months.

And I have GOT to get out of the habit of responding to everything everyone says...sheesh... :rolleyes:

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Fender2112
I got a hunch that the next thing we see will be the 15" Power Book with the 970.

I think other folks have made the same suggestion. Here are the things that point to this:

1) Steve says this is the year or the notebooks.
1.5) Steve also mentioned something about note books replacing the desktop Mac in the home.
2) We all feel confident that the 970 will be introduced at WWDC. Maybe before.
3) The systems shipping from Taiwan (or whereever it is) are reported to be single processor.
4) The 15" Power Book is overdue for an upgrade.

Summary: The mid level Power Book is due for an upgrade and the 970 is so close we can smell it. If the heat and power issues are resolved, why not introduce the 970 in a Power Book?

I will also suggest that the 15" PB, the mid level PB, will sport a 16:10 screen. This would give Apple's entire Power line, except the 12" PB, a 16:10 screen.

The catch is that once the 970 is released, regardless of the model, Apple will have to quickly upgrade all their products. The G3's and G4's will not sell well once the 970 comes out.

That's all there is and there is no more.

I really hope that this is true. However, I can also see that this rumor from MacB is in the range of being reasonable.

But I still say that, if Apple can get a first generation 970 (@ 130nm process) into a PowerBook, even if it's only running at 1GHz, I think that they should. The current PowerBooks are at the end of their rope, and I just don't see them being able to put a 1.25GHz G4 into them, given the heat output from the G4 and the small space constraints of the PowerBooks. So, that means that if we aren't going to see 970 base PowerBooks until January '04, then it will have effectively been 14 months since the last significant PowerBook update. That's horrid.

So, while I will acknowledge the plausibility of the MacB rumor, I also stand by the idea that a new update is due, and the G4 has no where to go. That leaves us with nothing but the 970 for the next update.

(Time since the last 15" PB update: six months. Time since the 12" and 17" were released: four months. Average time between updates: 146 days=about five months. => Therefore, in another month all three of the PowerBooks will be due for an update. How will they be updated, if not with the 970?)

BTW, why does the buying guide still say "Buy - Product recently updated" about the PowerBooks? Shouldn't it be, at least, "Neutral - Mid product cycle"?

[yzedf]

There is some truth to the AMD in Apple thing... there is a 333MHz AMD proc in the Airport Extreme base station.

As to heat issues... 130nm is cooler than 180nm, and 90nm is cooler than 130nm. Smaller size requires less power to run, which equates to less lost heat (40-60% of power put in is lost in heat transfer).

[macrumors12345]

Originally posted by Fender2112
I got a hunch that the next thing we see will be the 15" Power Book with the 970.


I got a hunch that you will be wrong.

Here are the things that point to this:

1) Never in the history of the world has a more powerful chip been introduced in a laptop *before* a chip of equivalent or greater power appeared in a desktop.
2) through 4) See 1).

Conceivably they could be announced simultaneously (towers and PBs, both with 970). But even that is quite unlikely. More likely the 970 will appear first in towers.

[arn]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
BTW, why does the buying guide still say "Buy - Product recently updated" about the PowerBooks? Shouldn't it be, at least, "Neutral - Mid product cycle"?

You're right.. the powerbook has required some manual adjustments in the buyers guide recs...

I may have to seperate out the 12 and 17" powerbooks from the 15"

But it sort of depends on the next update. Apple might consolidate upgrades for them.

arn

[BlainKBanquier]

From the Bidouille article:
"The relationship between Apple and Motorola is so bad that every call Steve Jobs makes to Motorola ends up in a violent quarel. Therefore Steve prefers to cease the deal with Motorola during 2004's first trimester and work with IBM."

a) Are we to assume their 'mole' is in the hall when Mr. Jobs is yelling on the phone? Is this really how multinational multibillion-dollar corporate relationships work?

b) Trimester? Do the French use thirds instead of quarters to divide their fiscal year?

In any case, do we know when the Moto contract is up? Maybe at the end of the second quarter (US calendar)?

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by macrumors12345

Conceivably they could be announced simultaneously (towers and PBs, both with 970). But even that is quite unlikely. More likely the 970 will appear first in towers.

I hear this refrain over and over, but I have yet to hear one good argument for it. If Apple can put the 970 into the PowerBooks now, why wouldn't they? They have done so in the past (with the G3), and while the original G3 PowerBook (Kanga) was a somewhat crippled G3 machine, it was still a significant step forward from the 3400 series (believe me, I know).

The more that I think about it, the more it seems that Apple is going to have the choice of putting the 970 into the PowerBook some time soon, using the current crop of 970 chips, or they will have to leave the PowerBooks lagging with 1GHz G4s until the beginning of next year when the new 90nm 970 chips are available. That will be over a year since the PowerBooks were updated to run at 1GHz.

Now, I'll admit that there is a fair amount of hope in all of this. I'm in a position where I have to get a new computer within the next few months, and portability is important to me. I really don't want to get a new 15" 1GHz G4 ALBook a month from now, only to have a 1.6GHz 970 PowerBook come out six months later that completely blows the doors off the older models. Yes, I know that it's part of the nature of things, but still, I can hope for a nice next generation machine on a time table that suits me.

My own personal reasons not-with-standing, I do think that there are reasonable, logical arguments for why we will see the PB and PM released with the 970 at the same time, possibly at WWDC.

[stompy]

Originally posted by Snowy_River


So, while I will acknowledge the plausibility of the MacB rumor, I also stand by the idea that a new update is due, and the G4 has no where to go. That leaves us with nothing but the 970 for the next update.

(Time since the last 15" PB update: six months. Time since the 12" and 17" were released: four months. Average time between updates: 146 days=about five months. => Therefore, in another month all three of the PowerBooks will be due for an update. How will they be updated, if not with the 970?)


I know everyone (especially Snowy_R) would rather see a PB 15" 970 sooner rather than later. (See quoted post below) "How will they be updated, if not with the 970?"

12" - 1 GHz?
15" Everything that the 17" PB currently has, except the 17" screen?"
17" - No update necessary. Apple has only recently filled backorders.

Originally posted by macrumors12345
I got a hunch that you will be wrong.

Here are the things that point to this:

1) Never in the history of the world has a more powerful chip been introduced in a laptop *before* a chip of equivalent or greater power appeared in a desktop.
2) through 4) See 1).

Conceivably they could be announced simultaneously (towers and PBs, both with 970). But even that is quite unlikely. More likely the 970 will appear first in towers.

Could not agree more.

[MacEyeDoc]

."I got a hunch that you will be wrong.

Here are the things that point to this:

1) Never in the history of the world has a more powerful chip been introduced in a laptop *before* a chip of equivalent or greater power appeared in a desktop.
2) through 4) See 1).

Conceivably they could be announced simultaneously (towers and PBs, both with 970). But even that is quite unlikely. More likely the 970 will appear first in towers.

Your comment may make it MORE likely that the 970 will appear in the 15in PB first. Just think, Steve would love to say those words in front of an audience: "Never in the history of the world . . . until Apple announces today . .:)

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by MacEyeDoc
."

Your comment may make it MORE likely that the 970 will appear in the 15in PB first. Just think, Steve would love to say those words in front of an audience: "Never in the history of the world . . . until Apple announces today . .:)

Good point. But then you totally kill Powermac sales. You would just buy a laptop if you want the most powerful machine. I think a dual release is more common than a PowerBook release.

[holy MAC!]

i think that we'll see the 970 in the summer (both pbook/ and pmacs) cuz if this is REALLY the "year of the notebook" then what's the point of introducing them at the end of the year..... then NEXT year would be "the year of the notebook"......

heck.. why can't it be "the year of APPLE" ?

[pilotgi]

That quote about the 90nm chips just doesn't make sense. The PPC 970 at 1.2 Ghz is already smaller and cooler than the 1 Ghz G4. And the increase in bus speed will more than make up for the modest clock speed increase.

So why would Apple need to wait until the end of the year for and even smaller chip for the Powerbook?

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
"First posts" are pointless and are not condoned on this forum. Please refrain from posting them, and report those who do.
must you always edit my post too?

We know the 970 is coming, but about the PowerBooks, PURE speculation, PURE 100% Grade A Speculation

Yes they are going to get the 970 AFTER the PowerMacs, thanks for stating the OBVIOUS! :rolleyes:

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Good point. But then you totally kill Powermac sales. You would just buy a laptop if you want the most powerful machine. I think a dual release is more common than a PowerBook release.
I'm going to weigh in on this one by asking:

1) How many powermacs is Apple selling right now anyway? Isn't the general consensus that they are overpriced and soon to be obsolete?

2) Yes, it would be highly unusual...but Apple is already considered to have some of the sweetest laptops out there. Why not just hammer in the point? Release a Powerbook with a sweet 17" (OK, and 15"...) screen that's faster than any desktop PC. I like it.

Shortly follow with the DP and WS 970s, and then iMacs. So what if sales of the towers are completely killed for a little while? Who's buying them? Let everyone save their pennies and then have a massive buying splurge of the 970 powermacs, which, by the way, will further entice SW companies to develop 970 native apps sooner since there will be less POWER USERS out there with G4s than there would have been if Apple had let people keep buying them blindly.

Just my thoughts. I also weighed in that I thought it was plausible for it to come out in the iMac first.

In any case, if it comes out in one it's going to hurt the sales of the other, so you just have to think which would be the best strategy.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by MrMacman
must you always edit my post too?

Why leave a quote of a part of a post that no longer exists? Removing references to it also prevents further dicussion.

Report it instead of quoting it and you won't get edited. ;)

[pilotgi]

There's a post over at Spymac about "inside" info from IBM that says they have a 750FX (G3) with clock speeds up to 2 Ghz and a 400 Mhz bus. These chips also have Altivec.

Here (http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24635) is a link if anyone's interested.

[BaghdadBob]

Do they have an iMac that runs on love? Because I've been waiting for one of those.

[Phil Of Mac]

Yes, hard drives produce more heat, but hard drive design can't be improved like processor design can. You improve what you can.

As for me, I'm starting college next fall, so I hope I can start with a 970-powered Book. If not, I'll be in a bind. Apple hopefully realizes that there are many of us in the same bind.

Bring on the 970Books at WWDC! It's not like it'll be hard...

[Phil Of Mac]

Oh, and the 970's going to be put in everything at once, like the G3 was. It's the Apple version of shock and awe...

[BlainKBanquier]

Originally posted by pilotgi
There's a post over at Spymac about "inside" info from IBM that says they have a 750FX (G3) with clock speeds up to 2 Ghz and a 400 Mhz bus. These chips also have Altivec.

Here (http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24635) is a link if anyone's interested.

It started here:
Here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25871)

[illumin8]

Originally posted by pilotgi
There's a post over at Spymac about "inside" info from IBM that says they have a 750FX (G3) with clock speeds up to 2 Ghz and a 400 Mhz bus. These chips also have Altivec.

Here (http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24635) is a link if anyone's interested.
This is great! A post linking to a post on Spymac that links back to a post originally posted on Macrumors... We've come full circle with this rumor....

[Scotty voice]
Cap'ain... She canna' take much more... You canna' change the laws of physics...
[/Scotty voice]

[fred_lj]

Snowy --- "So, while I will acknowledge the plausibility of the MacB rumor, I also stand by the idea that a new update is due, and the G4 has no where to go. That leaves us with nothing but the 970 for the next update."

Phil of Mac --- "Oh, and the 970's going to be put in everything at once, like the G3 was. It's the Apple version of shock and awe..."

This contributes to the idea that the PB just may debut the 970. And to those who say it's never been the case that a company's debuted a new, better processor in a laptop before the desktop, take a look right at APPLE! The G3 debuted in the PowerBook G3 (based on the PowerBook 3400 case) four days before the Power Mac G3 was introduced. Naner-naner-naner.



;)

[evoluzione]

why wouldn't Apple introduce a new processor in the 15" powerbook, i mean, where the heck is it anyways??? The ONLY reason I can think of for not putting it in the 15" first, is sales of the 17", which I consider to be their flagship laptop.

and Apple is innovative, and loves to surprise us, it's the sort of thing they'd do i reckon :)

if it does happen, it won't hurt PM sales, they're Dual Processor, I would never recommend a laptop to the companies I service, for the work they do anyway. It just would not be practical, no PCI slots, AGP etc etc etc etc.


Having said that, I won't believe it 'til i see it ;)

[dguisinger]

Originally posted by evoluzione
why wouldn't Apple introduce a new processor in the 15" powerbook, i mean, where the heck is it anyways??? The ONLY reason I can think of for not putting it in the 15" first, is sales of the 17", which I consider to be their flagship laptop.

and Apple is innovative, and loves to surprise us, it's the sort of thing they'd do i reckon :)

if it does happen, it won't hurt PM sales, they're Dual Processor, I would never recommend a laptop to the companies I service, for the work they do anyway. It just would not be practical, no PCI slots, AGP etc etc etc etc.


Having said that, I won't believe it 'til i see it ;)

Right, and they wouldn't release a laptop with the 970, without a desktop at the same time, or soon to come. And we have confirmation of system boards going to manufacturing for both the xserve and powermac, so we know those are coming.

[Pinto]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
As I understand it, the main source of heat inside a Mac laptop is the hard drive, not the CPU.

My old iBook, with a modest 500 MHz G3, still got scorching hot after a period of continuous use thanks to the hard drive.

It's the chips that cause the heat not so much the drive.

In the PowerBook G4 the drive sits under the trackpad and has no heat dissipation to carry the heat anywhere else. Feel the underside of a PBG4 and all the real heat is at the back end where the motherboard is.

[PaisanoMan]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Release a Powerbook with a sweet 17" (OK, and 15"...) screen that's faster than any desktop PC. I like it.

Hate to rain on your parade, but let's be realistic; no CPU/chipset is coming to the PowerBooks that'll make them "faster than any desktop PC." That's quite a [miraculous] feat, considering how fast desktop PCs are these days.

If you think such a PowerBook 970 is in the pipeline, I think you'll be sorely disappointed.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
I hear this refrain over and over, but I have yet to hear one good argument for it. If Apple can put the 970 into the PowerBooks now, why wouldn't they?


Ummmm ... Because if Apple can put an 970 into a PowerBook, with all the constraints of laptop design, then they can more easily and cheaply put it into a desktop tower, with relatively few design constraints and a far larger power supply.

In other words, the problem is not that Apple wouldn't put it into a laptop before a desktop if it could, but rather that it is a very rare case indeed that a new processor can be shoehorned into a laptop at the same time as or especially before it can be plopped into a desktop.

Personally, I am prepared to be surprised by a dual or near-simultaneous announcements of the 970 in the PowerMac as well as PowerBook lines (that's the kind of theatrics Jobs loves), but I am also prepared for the more likely scenario which is that the processor debut on the towers and migrate to the laptops within the year. I would be astoundingly surprised if the 970 were to be announced and ship in laptops before it shipped in towers.

That having been said, it's a rare thing to have such a huge advance in processor power that a product line has to straddle, and certainly amongst those "in the know" I'd expect drastically reduced G4-based machine sales the instant the first 970 configuration is announced (not moving to buy the 970 machine, but witing until the mid-levels of the lines carry the new processor). The likelihood of simultaneous announcements increases the more Apple believes its customers will see the full-line shift as inevitable, and the more Apple believes its customers will understand the massive leap in performance with the new chip. Remember that not all of Apple's customers are as highly hyper-informed as we try to be :)

Now, order-wise, if Jobs announces 970 laptops, any reasonably informed individual expects that within a week or so the towers will be announced, and so the second announcement is not a surprise (remember, "surprise" is Apple's key strategy to keep sales of previous models going right up to the debut of the new model). If Apple, on the other hand, announces 970 desktops one week, it would still be a huge surprise if Jobs were to announce the laptops the next week. Two major surprises if it is done this order, and hence two lines that don't suffer from pre-announcement sales loss. Of course, given a reality of 970s on the desktop, it is not at all predetermined that the 970 will be hitting the laptops soon, so even a 6-9 month delay before announcing laptops fits the Apple surprise-announcement strategy.

So, if I had to pick, I'd say MacBid is more likely than not about right regarding >6 months between the tower and the laptop. But I'd give the simultaneous "event" announcement at at least 25% possibility, maybe as high as 40%, and laptops-substantially-before-towers announcements at a little under 1%.

[evoluzione]

hmm, yeah, if the PBs come out then the PMs will follow soon after, within weeks at most, but if the new chip appears in the PM first, expect a 5-6 month wait for PBs. That's my take on it :)

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by PaisanoMan
Hate to rain on your parade, but let's be realistic; no CPU/chipset is coming to the PowerBooks that'll make them "faster than any desktop PC." That's quite a [miraculous] feat, considering how fast desktop PCs are these days.

Depends on what you expect from the 970, doesn't it?

[ultrafiel]

Well we just got 2 new dual 1.42 Ghz powermacs at work, and after setting them up they feel much faster than any other G4s I've used. Of course in any given day I use the first models (400 Mhz, to various versions of the quicksilver, so it is to be expected.) However, this does get me excited because the 970 is supposed to blow away the G4. So any 970 will be nice to me. I won't get one until probably next year after I graduate, so I don't mind, but just please let them come. Also, I swear the dual 1.42 Ghz towers are overclocked. With all the heat sink/fans in them they have to be. The G4 is running out of juice, there has to be a change.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by jettredmont
...
Now, order-wise, if Jobs announces 970 laptops, any reasonably informed individual expects that within a week or so the towers will be announced, and so the second announcement is not a surprise (remember, "surprise" is Apple's key strategy to keep sales of previous models going right up to the debut of the new model). If Apple, on the other hand, announces 970 desktops one week, it would still be a huge surprise if Jobs were to announce the laptops the next week.
...

Here's a way to look at the 'surprise' aspect of it. Week one: New PowerBooks - 12" @1GHz; 15" @1GHz and 1.2GHz; 17" @ 1.2GHz. That has a nice wow factor, right? Then, week two: New PowerMacs - Fast 1.8GHz; Faster Dual 2.0GHz; Fastest Dual 2.2GHz. I don't think that the amount that they would be hurt by having the upcoming announcement of the 970 PM not being as much of a surprise would be that significant. And, if they were announcing new PM that blew the doors off the PBs they just announced, as well as anything else on the market (in a comparable price range), I think they'd still count that as a nice surprise factor.

That said, I will grant that I don't think it'll happen that way. I think that there will be a nearly simultaneous release of PMs and PBs based on the 970 (either being announced at the same time, or within a week or two of each other).

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by stompy
"How will they be updated, if not with the 970?"

12" - 1 GHz?
15" Everything that the 17" PB currently has, except the 17" screen?"
17" - No update necessary. Apple has only recently filled backorders.


This would be one of the most lack-luster updates ever. The entire PB line would be at 1GHz? And, given the heat problems that the 17" has had, how on Earth could they successfully upgrade the 12" to 1GHz? And the 15" would likely see little in the way of performance increase, based on comparisons between the 17" and the current 15".

Oh, and I guess the top of the line PM doesn't need to be updated, either, as they've only recently started shipping. Right?

If this is what the PB update looks like for this summer, I'll be rather disappointed.

[DrGonzo]

WWDC won't be here quick enough! I can't take the suspense!

[maradong]

I can t beleiv that, if even intel, which is however the largest chip producer in the world, is not abble to get the 90 nm process done before 1 quater 2004 i just don t see ibm doing that...

[dguisinger]

Originally posted by maradong
I can t beleiv that, if even intel, which is however the largest chip producer in the world, is not abble to get the 90 nm process done before 1 quater 2004 i just don t see ibm doing that...

IBM went SOI and used copper interconnects before Intel. Whats your point? It costs Intel more money to ramp up a new technology, because they have more fabs, and takinga fab down means less production during an upgrade.

[stompy]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
This would be one of the most lack-luster updates ever.

For an equally lackluster update, we'd have to think back several, uh.... days to the iBook 900 release.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by maradong
I can t beleiv that, if even intel, which is however the largest chip producer in the world, is not abble to get the 90 nm process done before 1 quater 2004 i just don t see ibm doing that...

IBM's better than Intel, remember? :)

Anyway, it would be kinda stupid for Apple to release Powerbooks first. Apple does weird stuff, but not stupid stuff. They do weird stuff that might succeed, probably won't, but eventually does. Releasing PowerBooks first would be just stupid. A simultaneous announcement, on the other hand...

[bentmywookie]

Originally posted by evoluzione
why wouldn't Apple introduce a new processor in the 15" powerbook, i mean, where the heck is it anyways??? The ONLY reason I can think of for not putting it in the 15" first, is sales of the 17", which I consider to be their flagship laptop.

and Apple is innovative, and loves to surprise us, it's the sort of thing they'd do i reckon :)

if it does happen, it won't hurt PM sales, they're Dual Processor, I would never recommend a laptop to the companies I service, for the work they do anyway. It just would not be practical, no PCI slots, AGP etc etc etc etc.


Having said that, I won't believe it 'til i see it ;)

Desktop sales in general are down, with notebooks being the only things getting some action. Laptops are finally at the point where you could conceivably only have a laptop and be fine for pretty much all SOHO use. Gamers get their own super desktops but they are a niche. I don't believe Apple would put out 970 powerbooks without 970 powermacs, but I do think that when the 970s come, the powerbooks will have them as well. Apple knows they will sell through the roof, and they are about making money.

[alcofire3474]

Originally posted by Fender2112
I got a hunch that the next thing we see will be the 15" Power Book with the 970.

I think other folks have made the same suggestion. Here are the things that point to this:

1) Steve says this is the year or the notebooks.
1.5) Steve also mentioned something about note books replacing the desktop Mac in the home.
2) We all feel confident that the 970 will be introduced at WWDC. Maybe before.
3) The systems shipping from Taiwan (or whereever it is) are reported to be single processor.
4) The 15" Power Book is overdue for an upgrade.

Summary: The mid level Power Book is due for an upgrade and the 970 is so close we can smell it. If the heat and power issues are resolved, why not introduce the 970 in a Power Book?

I will also suggest that the 15" PB, the mid level PB, will sport a 16:10 screen. This would give Apple's entire Power line, except the 12" PB, a 16:10 screen.

The catch is that once the 970 is released, regardless of the model, Apple will have to quickly upgrade all their products. The G3's and G4's will not sell well once the 970 comes out.

That's all there is and there is no more.

I truly believe this to be true. Last week I attended open house at the college i will be attending next year and they had the 15" powerbook with education discount at $1899. Yes that is right. I was like holy cow that is $900 less than it is at the Apple Store. Every other product that the college was selling was only $50-$100 less than what the Apple Store is selling it for. It is obvious just from the huge discount that 15" powerbook updates are coming very soon, and that the update will be more than just a faster g4 with fw800 and airport extreme. THE 970 IS NEAR. :) :)

[herocero]

i'm so glad someone is as smart as snowy river :)
think about the varying degree of clockspeeds we've been subjected to. 1GHz, 1.2, 1.3, 1.8, 2.2, etc. any possibility they could all be right . . .
a 1GHz to 1.3 would be a perfect intro of the 970 into the PB line. not nearly as hot as a 1.8+, and a broad change in processor to kick the G4 out of the house for good. the powermacs get the hotter ones, and with dual procs for our same old traditional line-up.
this is of course assuming the Ghz range at the 130nm manufacturing spec orginally rumored earlier, but who knows what june will hold and the possibility of the 90nm in the future . . .
nothing should stop the entire xserve/pb/pm lines from going to the 970 as soon as possible, the price/performance ratio on all of these systems are getting walloped by competitors . . . (intuition, don't ask me for hard numbers :)
cheers

[alcofire3474]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Yes, hard drives produce more heat, but hard drive design can't be improved like processor design can. You improve what you can.

As for me, I'm starting college next fall, so I hope I can start with a 970-powered Book. If not, I'll be in a bind. Apple hopefully realizes that there are many of us in the same bind.

Bring on the 970Books at WWDC! It's not like it'll be hard...

I am currently in the same boat. I need a laptop for college next year and it would be awesome to show off a brand new apple 970 powerbook to all my classmates. It would be smart of apple to aim for the college students who will be buying laptops shortly after WWDC for fall semester. But if Apple doesn't release the 970 in a laptop, I don't know what I would do, because there is no way I would buy a G4 powerbook now since it will be outdated once the 970 is released. The powerbook 970 would be greatly appreciated this summer. Thanks Apple :)

[exsilio]

Hell,

I'll be happy if the new PowerMacs don't sound like a Hoover Wind Tunnel :P

I just bought a 1.25 dp..I guess im going to return it..had no idea new ones were right around the corner...darn darn darn

[anthonymoody]

"But then you totally kill Powermac sales"

You say this like it would be undesirable from Apple's standpoint. As has been pointed out countless times, laptops carry both higher prices *and* higher margins. In case you're wondering, both of those are *good* for Apple.

That said, I agree that the new processors would appear at best simultaneously in the PMs and the PB, not first in the PB.

TM

[Curiousstrngmint]

Why do I always catch the tail end of product cycles? Last summer I was this [ ] close to buying a 15" powerbook but I wanted something that would last 3 years or more for college and I knew the damn thing was near the end of its cycle, didn't have DDR, etc. I ended up with a PC, but one that would last. And look what happened: in January they DID come out with newer and better powerbooks.

And now I'm unhappy with it and I want to sell it and get a 12" powerbook, the sexiest computer ever, and lo and behold, if I get one this summer, they'll be TOTALLY blown out of the water by the end of the year.

So please tell me, what are the chances of the 970 being in powerbooks this summer?

[Bengt77]

Really, I think it would be great if the xMacs* (new name for the Power Macs?) would be announced at WWDC and shipping at the MWNY (or whatever it'll be called by then). That would totally revive the sales of Apple's prosumer machines. The 970 xServes** could be announced and shipping at the same dates. That would totally rock!

The PowerBooks don't need to be announced at the same time. It would be absolutely perfect if Steve Jobs would pull one other of those famous "Oh, and one more thing..."-announcements at the end of an Expo-event. Of course, that would be the xBooks (new name for the PowerBooks?) with the 970 processor. Maybe they could even announce both the xBooks and iMacs carrying 970's at the same time?! Now THAT would be a surprise!


:D


The name 'xMac' makes a GREAT name if you pronounce it: 'axeMac'. It would be the Mac that totally and (hopefully) finally axes any PC out there.

[**a] I think it would be great if the whole PowerLine was renamed the xLine. And change the uppercase X to a lowercase one (so the Xserve becomes the xServe) to bring the naming scheme on par with the iLine.

[**b] The name 'xServe' leaves some space for the introduction of an 'iServe', doesn't it? An iMac or Cube like Mac without a display but aggressively priced. Reading all the rumours concerning such Macs makes me think such a thing would sell like really hot sandwiches. Am I wrong?!

[Grimace]

curious -
You are always going to be on the end of a cycle. No matter when you buy something from Apple, a bigger and better thing is right around the corner.

My advice: buy something that works for you - and then, don't read any Mac gossip!! The rumors of a potential processor which will be released in 8+ months won't bother you anymore... :D

[Grimace]

If I could guarantee that the 970s would be out tomorrow or in 8 months - which would be better for your situation? Probably neither - because the next best thing is still in the works.

[sedarby]

Originally posted by Pinto
It's the chips that cause the heat not so much the drive.

In the PowerBook G4 the drive sits under the trackpad and has no heat dissipation to carry the heat anywhere else. Feel the underside of a PBG4 and all the real heat is at the back end where the motherboard is.

The optical drives (CD-ROM/DVD) generate a fair amount of heat as well.;)

[dongmin]

Five most often cited reasons why we'll see the 970 in a laptop first:

5. We're due for a 15" powerbook update
4. The g4 has reached its limit at 1 ghz
3. The 970 is already cool enough for a laptop
2. 1.2 ghz 970 consumes less heat than a 1.0 ghz G4
1. It's 'the year of the laptop.'


Let me debunk these, point by point:

5. The 17" just started shipping in March. It's the flagship notebook. No way are they going to make it obsolete by introducing a 970-powered 15". And no, they wouldn't update the 17" alongside the 15". The 970 requires a new motherboard and corresponding case. Why would they bother releasing a brand new product in March if they're gonna completely redesign it three months later. No way. Apple is gonna milk at least a year out of the current 17" PB before redesigning it.

4. First of all, the G4 is already past the 1 ghz mark. Some people argue the 1.25 and 1.42 are simply 'overclocks.' That's a matter of semantics. Secondly, the G4 7457 is due out soon, running at 1.3 ghz. It consumes 10 watts at 1 ghz, making a dual-ghz config possible, if unlikely. The 17" seems to be a good candidate for dual CPUs. The 7457 is rumored to go up to 1.8 ghz later this year. So no, the G4 hasn't reached it's limit.

3. The 19 watts at 1.2 ghz is at 1.1v. To go higher, they'd need to up the voltage which in turn will make it too hot for a laptop (they get to 1.8 ghz by upping the voltage to 1.3v which dissipates 43 w). And this is the way it is until they get to .09 process which may not be for a while. So would they introduce the 970 at 1.2 ghz in the PB but not update it for another 8-9 months. Possible, but unlikely. But I doubt Apple will introduce a new chip unless they had some headroom.

2. This is pure rubbish. The 970 consumes 19 watts at 1.2 ghz (1.1 v). The latest 7455 (http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/PPCSALESFACT.pdf) dissipates 15 watts at 1 ghz. I suspect this is what's in the current PBs. So a 1.2 ghz 970 will consume 30% more power--not good for battery life.

1. Pure marketing speak. It doesn't meet diddly squat. Please stop quoting it--it's getting super tiresome. Steve's said a lot of things ("Death to the CRT" and "No more boot to OS 9") that he's gone back on.

[phantommaul]

please someone clear me on that.

* my first speculation was apple announcing the first ppc970 in the 15" powerbooks with the annonuncement of 10.3 which support 64 bits. because steve jobs said it would be the year of the powerbooks but there are no powerbooks which would be labeled as the computer of the "year".

* than this mac bibliote... guys started to send posts about the new release dates of the 970s benchmarks and so but there are unclear parst about that

* apple currently has g3 and g4 computers when we used powermacs and powerbooks g4 we used imacs and ibooks g3 processors. if apple would announce 970s they will still start to sell imacs and ibooks g4 because there are lots of inventory to spend and apple has to draw the line between the entry models and professional models.

* i think there are no lines now because the powerbooks, imacs,powermacs and also emacs are really powerful machines, if apple wants to target the specific users of the market they have to continue selling both g4 and 970s

ohh my god my mind is all ********* up here. i dont even know hot to end this entry. apple really mixed their market strategy now. and if they want to grow they have to show the consumers their moves. i really got tired of seeing myself as a lab mouse.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by dongmin
4. First of all, the G4 is already past the 1 ghz mark. Some people argue the 1.25 and 1.42 are simply 'overclocks.' That's a matter of semantics. Secondly, the G4 7457 is due out soon, running at 1.3 ghz. It consumes 10 watts at 1 ghz, making a dual-ghz config possible, if unlikely. The 17" seems to be a good candidate for dual CPUs. The 7457 is rumored to go up to 1.8 ghz later this year. So no, the G4 hasn't reached it's limit.

The 7457 isn't due until the end of the year, about when the 90nm 970 is expected to appear. And the 1.25 & 1.42 parts are likely to be running at 1.6v core voltage - i.e. disappate a huge amount of power to reach those speeds (hence the huge amount of cooling that goes through those systems). Finally, the 17" likely uses the 1.1v 7455, but the 15" probably uses the 1.3v 7455, which consumes about 20w.

[mathiasr]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
The 7457 isn't due until the end of the year, about when the 90nm 970 is expected to appear. And the 1.25 & 1.42 parts are likely to be running at 1.6v core voltage - i.e. disappate a huge amount of power to reach those speeds (hence the huge amount of cooling that goes through those systems). Finally, the 17" likely uses the 1.1v 7455, but the 15" probably uses the 1.3v 7455, which consumes about 20w.

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,2322_1901_23,00.html

excerpt : "Pricing and Availability
Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. Suggested retail pricing for the MPC7457 at 1 GHz is expected to be $189 (USD) in quantities of 10,000."

But you know, Apple uses PowerPCs that have not even been announced by Motorola. ;)

I think the 970 will not appear in the PowerBook line until next year (in June rather than January), the problem is not only putting a new CPU on a small and flat motherboard (the PPC 970 is supposed to rely on ZIF sockets) but also a whole new chipset. Having a 800-900 MHz FSB and using fast DDR memory has an overall impact on heat and power consumption. It's not even sure that the PPC 970 has power saving modes.
Thus Apple could introduce the 7457 in its product line by September and use it 6 to 9 months.
They could also switch to a "yet to be announced" chip made by IBM that would still be a 32 bits PowerPC + AltiVec.

Just my 2 euro cents.

[Pedro Estarque]

I think the most interesting thing about this is that they are going for 90nm really fast, which means cooler and therefore faster 970 for the PM soon after their release. No more moto timeframe

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by mathiasr
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,2322_1901_23,00.html

excerpt : "Pricing and Availability
Alpha samples of the MPC7457 and MPC7447 PowerPC processors are available today to selected customers. General market sampling is planned for March, with production expected to commence in Q4 2003. Suggested retail pricing for the MPC7457 at 1 GHz is expected to be $189 (USD) in quantities of 10,000."

But you know, Apple uses PowerPCs that have not even been announced by Motorola. ;)

I think the 970 will not appear in the PowerBook line until next year (in June rather than January), the problem is not only putting a new CPU on a small and flat motherboard (the PPC 970 is supposed to rely on ZIF sockets) but also a whole new chipset. Having a 800-900 MHz FSB and using fast DDR memory has an overall impact on heat and power consumption. It's not even sure that the PPC 970 has power saving modes.
Thus Apple could introduce the 7457 in its product line by September and use it 6 to 9 months.
They could also switch to a "yet to be announced" chip made by IBM that would still be a 32 bits PowerPC + AltiVec.

Just my 2 euro cents.
I'll have to agree with you on that. The 7457 makes more sense short-term for the PowerBooks. That would solve the heat issues on the 12" (with a 7447) and would probably allow them to put a more powerful graphics card because of the low power consumption of the 7457/7447.

NicoMan

[Flickta]

Back to the rumors page. First time since March (Well, visited it in april, but - no posts). "The Year of the Notebook" The year you spend waiting your 17 inch baby. The year when ONLY PB's are competitive. PM's aren't.

I'd say 15 inch PB will be updated and will have an AL case FW 800, BT and still a 1 Ghz G4. At the same time, there MAY BE some minor update of the 17 inch. Say, 1.2 Ghz or something. It happens when it happens. In June, if the claims are correct (and our beloved Apple won't stick to yet another revision of the G4 which is [sorry!] unfortunately likely) we'll see new 970 Towers. Together with AL PB's equipped with 970 - 1.2 (is there a 1 Ghz version? Then it will be in the 12 inch) Ghz. Towers - higher speeds, and dual, at least the Fastest and... you know... Ultimate.
That's it. My guess.

P.S. Want an Apple-branded Backlit, thin keys (like PB), Full-sized Keyboard (preferably with more than two USB ports) and a one-buttoned two-button mouse. Too lazy to turn on the light.