Holy Moly, Episcopalian Church Implosion

[SC68Cal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/us/17episcopal.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5087%0A&em&en=ed559000e01cc756&ex=1166590800

I just can't believe it. This is crazy. One of the biggest denominations of Christianity is ready to split apart.

Over the gay issue! An issue that barely affects them personally!

[calculus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/us/17episcopal.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5087%0A&em&en=ed559000e01cc756&ex=1166590800

I just can't believe it. This is crazy. One of the biggest denominations of Christianity is ready to split apart.

Over the gay issue! An issue that barely affects them personally!

Let them get on with it. This sort of thing just shows how nasty some religious people are.

On another note Episcopalian Church Implosion would be a great name for a band.

[iSaint]

Yeah, this has been building up behind the scenes of the conservative buildup in other facets of US politics and religion. I'm an Episcopalian, and I always will be. Problem is, any major theological conflict in the history of the Church has taken decades, if not longer, to resolve; if it gets resolved at all. There are well over 1,500 denominations of Christianity in the world today. They all think they are right. It's only those few days after tragic events like Katrina or 09/11 that we hold each other true to Jesus' teachings: love God, and love each other.

That's my nickel's worth.

btw: It's The Episcopal Church. I am an Episcopalian. So it would be an Episcopal Church Implosion.

[Thomas Veil]

In Virginia, the two large churches are voting on whether they want to report to the powerful archbishop of Nigeria, Peter Akinola, an outspoken opponent of homosexuality who supports legislation in his country that would make it illegal for gay men and lesbians to form organizations, read gay literature or eat together in a restaurant.Well. If that's what they want.... Wonder if they'll make gays sit in the back of the bus? :mad:

These aren't the first churches that have threatened to join up with branches from Africa. It's just the latest display of intolerance in the name of Jesus.

This is so ****ing stupid. Of course I don't know why I'm saying anything. I'm Catholic. Our church is hardly a bastion of open-mindedness.

[Kalns]

Sometimes it's neccessary to peel away the dead skin.

[nbs2]

eat together in a restaurant

This is the part that confuses me. How do you tell if it is a couple of any variety eating in a restaurant or just two friends?

A bigger question that perplexes me - if the Anglican Church believes that God is perfect, how can it be an umbrella for groups that espouse different theological views? Shouldn't the head of the church be the final authority and, regardless of the decision, either "you're with us or you're against us"? If you don't agree with the theology, how can you consider yourself a member? Haven't you adopted beliefs that differ and therefore one of you are imperfect?

[Thomas Veil]

This is the part that confuses me. How do you tell if it is a couple of any variety eating in a restaurant or just two friends?I suppose they'll have some kind of formula:

Two guys at Macaroni Grill: gay date.
Two guys at Longhorns: business lunch.

:rolleyes: :D

[takao]

hm is this kinda the US version of the anglican church or something ? i'm not that informed about all those american christian churches so where are they positioned ?

[skunk]

At The Right Hand Of God. It's pretty crowded.

[OnceUGoMac]

This has been building for years. I'm surprised it took so long.

[killmoms]

I suppose they'll have some kind of formula:

Two guys at Macaroni Grill: gay date.
Two guys at Longhorns: business lunch.

:rolleyes: :D

Lollin.

Seriously though, I've gone to the Macaroni Grill with my friend Rian for dinner because it's good and he's my only friend in L.A.. Plus, I wear some womens' clothing (pants and collared shirts, just tighter-fitting stuff), I bet people thought we were a gay couple. What a riot.

[Queso]

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the ****ing Judean People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah...

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters...

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People's Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He's over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

[balamw]

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the ****ing Judean People's Front.

Is there an equivalent of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) that deals with how soom a Monty Python reference shows up in a thread?

B

[bousozoku]

hm is this kinda the US version of the anglican church or something ? i'm not that informed about all those american christian churches so where are they positioned ?

The Episcopal Church joined with the Anglican Church, at least, in the U.S.A., a few years ago.

They're the closest to the Catholic church but they also tend to be rather progressive. Apparently, it's not universal, especially in Central Floriduh.

When the ordination of a gay priest hit the fan, the local parishes decided that it would be better to leave the oversight of the organisation to start their own but as with most everything here, they haven't made much progress.

[srf4real]

Episcopalians: wherever two or more are gathered... you'll find a fifth!;)

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/158/jimbeamblackvt3.jpg

I was raised in that church. I'm allowed to make that joke.:D
Seriously, even if gayness was a sin... what makes them so special? I think all sinners should be banned from going to or having authority over any church. :eek:

*makes note to self: buy up all the vacant churches on prime real estate

[iSaint]

The Episcopal Church joined with the Anglican Church, at least, in the U.S.A., a few years ago.

They're the closest to the Catholic church but they also tend to be rather progressive. Apparently, it's not universal, especially in Central Floriduh.

When the ordination of a gay priest hit the fan, the local parishes decided that it would be better to leave the oversight of the organisation to start their own but as with most everything here, they haven't made much progress.

The Episcopal Church (http://dfms.org) is a part of the Anglican Communion (http://www.anglicancommunion.org), which has 70 million members worldwide. The Episcopal Church only has about 2.5 million, and is the most liberal by far of any of the Anglican provinces in the world. The Episcopal Church was founded early in the history of our country when they managed to get their own Bishop consecrated on US land in order to separate themselves from the Church of England (the Anglican Church).

To meet their immediate needs, a few conservative parishes in the US are acting as a congregations, and not respecting the oversight of their Diocesan and Presiding Bishops, by allowing themselves to be placed under the oversight of the Bishop of an African province. They think this is a great and wonderful solution. IMO it's a knee-jerk reaction. Conservatism in many African nations means imprisonment and/or death to gay persons in their country. The divide is much greater culturally and politically than both parties would ever begin to fathom were they to examine their respective countries more closely. Also, The Episcopal Church as a whole and many very large parishes within send millions of dollars to these Anglican provinces to help in the fight against hunger and AIDS. Given the political climate in those areas, who knows where that money goes.

Not trying to disprove your comments bousozoku, just affirming them (I hope). :) And, correcting that the Episcopal Church has been a separate province of the Anglican communion since the 1700s. I'm fairly liberal, and feel a commitment to the Episcopal Church. I was just rather wait the fifty or one-hundred years it will take to sort this out.

Of course, there's so much more to all this than any of us realize. :( :o



Episcopalians: wherever two or more are gathered... you'll find a fifth!

I was raised in that church. I'm allowed to make that joke.
Seriously, even if gayness was a sin... what makes them so special? I think all sinners should be banned from going to or having authority over any church.

We're all sinners. That's what we need to realize. :)

Also, they don't call us whiskeypalians for nothing!!!

There are no Episcopalians down in hell!
There are no Episcopalians down in hell!
Yes, they're all up above
drinkin' wine and makin' love
There are no Episcopalians down in hell!
wish i could describe the tune that goes to

[srf4real]

[QUOTE=iSaint;3162323]

Of course, there's so much more to all this than any of us realize. [QUOTE]

I wonder if there is a non-smoking section in heaven, or if we all have to get along and tolerate one another for a change...:rolleyes:

[bousozoku]

The Episcopal Church (http://dfms.org) is a part of the Anglican Communion (http://www.anglicancommunion.org), which has 70 million members worldwide. The Episcopal Church only has about 2.5 million, and is the most liberal by far of any of the Anglican provinces in the world. The Episcopal Church was founded early in the history of our country when they managed to get their own Bishop consecrated on US land in order to separate themselves from the Church of England (the Anglican Church).

To meet their immediate needs, a few conservative parishes in the US are acting as a congregations, and not respecting the oversight of their Diocesan and Presiding Bishops, by allowing themselves to be placed under the oversight of the Bishop of an African province. They think this is a great and wonderful solution. IMO it's a knee-jerk reaction. Conservatism in many African nations means imprisonment and/or death to gay persons in their country. The divide is much greater culturally and politically than both parties would ever begin to fathom were they to examine their respective countries more closely. Also, The Episcopal Church as a whole and many very large parishes within send millions of dollars to these Anglican provinces to help in the fight against hunger and AIDS. Given the political climate in those areas, who knows where that money goes.

Not trying to disprove your comments bousozoku, just affirming them (I hope). :) And, correcting that the Episcopal Church has been a separate province of the Anglican communion since the 1700s. I'm fairly liberal, and feel a commitment to the Episcopal Church. I was just rather wait the fifty or one-hundred years it will take to sort this out.

Of course, there's so much more to all this than any of us realize. :( :o
...

I know that you were helping. I'm not a member of either church, so I'm not authority.

I'm a non-practising member of the (United) Presbyterian church and I've found that many conflicts have arisen inside of it over the years. It's not so far from the Catholic Church, either. However, to hear my Korean friend who was Presbyterian, then Baptist in Korea and eventually, the U.S.A., the church intolerant of real people.

Of course, the Episcopal Church didn't like "The Book of Daniel" t.v. series, even though it was a light-hearted attempt to show that ministers and priests are just people. I suppose it's just a good thing they didn't put it up against an intolerant denomination. I know that God has a sense of humour or else humans wouldn't be alive. ;)

[emmawu]

I'm a recovering Catholic for lots of reasons. First of all, intolerance. :)

[iSaint]

I know that you were helping. I'm not a member of either church, so I'm not authority.

I'm a non-practising member of the (United) Presbyterian church and I've found that many conflicts have arisen inside of it over the years. It's not so far from the Catholic Church, either. However, to hear my Korean friend who was Presbyterian, then Baptist in Korea and eventually, the U.S.A., the church intolerant of real people.

Of course, the Episcopal Church didn't like "The Book of Daniel" t.v. series, even though it was a light-hearted attempt to show that ministers and priests are just people. I suppose it's just a good thing they didn't put it up against an intolerant denomination. I know that God has a sense of humour or else humans wouldn't be alive. ;)

Since I live in the Bible Belt, I never got to see "The Book of Daniel." Many of my youth minister friends (Episcopalians) did get to see it and even recorded it for viewing and discussion with their youth groups!

[reubs]

As another Episcopalian here on the boards, I'd like to chime in. I'm here in Virginia where a bunch of this stuff is hitting the fan, and the Church is experiencing a pretty sad time. I find it very disheartening that the folks at Truro, Falls Church, etc. feel the need to pick up their toys and leave b/c they didn't get their way. To prove homosexuality is against scripture is an up-hill battle, just like it is an up-hill battle to argue the other way.

Some would argue that this whole issue is less about homosexuality and more about women's ordination to the priesthood. But that's all I've got for now. Time to study some more.

[Peterkro]

Dear sir, as regards taking our name in vain our lawyers will be in contact,yours etc: www.holymoly.co.uk

Ps your all tedious c**ts.

[iSaint]

As another Episcopalian here on the boards, I'd like to chime in. I'm here in Virginia where a bunch of this stuff is hitting the fan, and the Church is experiencing a pretty sad time. I find it very disheartening that the folks at Truro, Falls Church, etc. feel the need to pick up their toys and leave b/c they didn't get their way. To prove homosexuality is against scripture is an up-hill battle, just like it is an up-hill battle to argue the other way.

Some would argue that this whole issue is less about homosexuality and more about women's ordination to the priesthood. But that's all I've got for now. Time to study some more.

Most of the conservatives in Mississippi (there are about a hundred or so) say it's about staying true to scripture. I say, which translation? I know I sound smarmy, but you can find a translation that fits your theology, or need.

I'm waiting for another Episcopalian in Mississippi to pipe in. I was busted anonymously last year for talking about my former priest on these boards. Eh, they're human, they should be able to take it! :p :D

BTW one of the most staunch conservatives in our Diocese is a female priest. Go figure... :confused:



Dear sir, as regards taking our name in vain our lawyers will be in contact,yours etc: www.holymoly.co.uk

Ps your all tedious c**ts.

Hey, Peterkro, I don't get it... :)

The site is funny, though. Another great site is Ship of Fools (http://ship-of-fools.com/)!

This (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/18/episcopalians.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories) is a pretty good summary of the state of things in TEC.

[Queso]

Is there an equivalent of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) that deals with how soon a Monty Python reference shows up in a thread?

B
Highly appropriate in this case from where I'm sitting. :p

The only two things I want to know are:- If the "Anglican Communion" does split, and the Archbishop of Canterbury decides to side with the Archbishop of Nigeria, who advocates actions that are considered hate crimes under UK law, will the Bishops who sit in the House of Lords do the decent thing and give up their places? Or if he chooses that the Church of England will join with the Episcopalians, will he reconsider the appointment of John Jeffrey to the position of Bishop?

[iSaint]

Highly appropriate in this case from where I'm sitting. :p

The only two things I want to know are:- If the "Anglican Communion" does split, and the Archbishop of Canterbury decides to side with the Archbishop of Nigeria, who advocates actions that are considered hate crimes under UK law, will the Bishops who sit in the House of Lords do the decent thing and give up their places? Or if he chooses that the Church of England will join with the Episcopalians, will he reconsider the appointment of John Jeffrey to the position of Bishop?

The Anglican Communion is not splitting. What's happening is that parishes (individual churches) in America are choosing to be placed under the authority of Anglican Bishops in other, more conservative countries. They then title themselves 'Anglican' instead of 'Episcopal.' So, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has no real authority (unlike the Pope), won't really choose sides. He is trying to listen to all sides and have ongoing conversations on the matters. But, like I said earlier, all the conservatives are interested in is an immediate solution. And, the ABC isn't happy about the ECUSA, either.

Episcopalians are Anglicans. It's just what we call ourselves in the US.

You make a valid point about Nigeria. And about John Jeffrey as well. I'm almost sure no one is going to give up their position of power anytime soon.

[Queso]

The Anglican Communion is not splitting.
Not immediately, but the day when it becomes a real possibility is fast approaching. I guess I'm concerned with the future role of the Church of England rather than the international Churches. The CoE has inside access to the UK Parliament in a way that other lobbying and special interest groups aren't privileged to. If the CoE starts taking its social policy lead from the Nigerian Church, it effectively gives a foreign body the direct ability to influence British law.

Of course, if the House of Lords were reformed to become fully elected by the people, this issue would disappear and the Church could do as it pleased as far as I'm concerned. But under the current arrangements, I'd rather any split would end up with our established Church going in the same direction as the North Americans.

[Thomas Veil]

Since I live in the Bible Belt, I never got to see "The Book of Daniel." Many of my youth minister friends (Episcopalians) did get to see it and even recorded it for viewing and discussion with their youth groups!That was a good show.

Occasionally people from the south or midwest will complain that they are not like the closed-minded stereotype that some people have of them. Then some of them start bitching about shows like this, and you think to yourself, "Yes they are."

[solvs]

Sometimes it's neccessary to peel away the dead skin.

Which side do you consider to be the dead skin?

I see a lot more of this coming. Look at what happened awhile ago with that guy who decided to not head a large Christian organization (or was asked to step down) because he wanted to focus more on important issues like poverty and the environment than opposing homosexuality and stem cell research. Or the whole thing with David Kuo. You have people who just want to go to Church being turned off by the hypocrisy of the fundies, and those who are simply hiding behind religion to justify their feelings.

Lots of people in the middle, but the lines get drawn somewhere.

[princealfie]

Clap, clap.

[srf4real]

Nothing has more effectively weakened the church than nit-picking amongst the members themselves... the day the body of Christ unites will be a day of reckoning. Then there's the quote from The Man, himself; "A house divided against itself can not stand.":cool:

[skunk]

the day the body of Christ unites will be a day of reckoningFor whom? :confused:

[Queso]

For whom? :confused:
For the Church I suppose. It would mean their numbers have dwindled to one.

[takao]

man just by fast reading through this thread i get utterly confused with all those jumps like from US to nigeria to british law and back to the US and then this talking about who can decide what

what are Presbyterians ? or the "United Presbyterian Alliance" or "Allied Presbyterian League" or however they are called in the US ?

[skunk]

:D . I like it, dynamicv.

[srf4real]

For the Church I suppose. It would mean their numbers have dwindled to one.

:D *makes note to self: prepare to buy all vacant church properties on beachfront land...

[iSaint]

man just by fast reading through this thread i get utterly confused with all those jumps like from US to nigeria to british law and back to the US and then this talking about who can decide what

what are Presbyterians ? or the "United Presbyterian Alliance" or "Allied Presbyterian League" or however they are called in the US ?

They split a long time ago, 20-30 years maybe?! It's the Presbyterian Church USA (http://www.pcusa.org/) (the more liberal branch), and the Presbyterian Church in America (http://www.pcanet.org/). You'll have to find the Calvinist on these here boards to better inform you.

[bousozoku]

Which side do you consider to be the dead skin?

I see a lot more of this coming. Look at what happened awhile ago with that guy who decided to not head a large Christian organization (or was asked to step down) because he wanted to focus more on important issues like poverty and the environment than opposing homosexuality and stem cell research. Or the whole thing with David Kuo. You have people who just want to go to Church being turned off by the hypocrisy of the fundies, and those who are simply hiding behind religion to justify their feelings.

Lots of people in the middle, but the lines get drawn somewhere.

That person who gave up his leadership position was in an odd position. I attended Northland Church, where he preaches, a couple of times because I drove someone else there. It was a little too cult-like for my taste and they spent more time congratulating themselves on their good works and showing their audio/video expertise than worshipping God.

[adk]

This problem isn't unique to the episcopal church. I can foresee most of the more liberal sects of christianity subdividing into gay=ok sects and gay=eternal fire and brimstone sects.

[pdham]

They split a long time ago, 20-30 years maybe?! It's the Presbyterian Church USA (http://www.pcusa.org/) (the more liberal branch), and the Presbyterian Church in America (http://www.pcanet.org/). You'll have to find the Calvinist on these here boards to better inform you.

I am a Calvinist, but of the Dutch Christian Reform variety, so I would probably of little help if you had any real questions.

[Thomas Veil]

I am a ClavinistSo you worship that mailman who always used to hang around with Norm in Cheers?

[pdham]

So you worship that mailman who always used to hang around with Norm in Cheers?

I actually was a fan of Woody.....

opps:o

[Sayhey]

I actually was a fan of Woody.....

Now, that can be taken sooo many ways. :eek:

[princealfie]

Now, that can be taken sooo many ways. :eek:

Woody Allens rocks da house! :cool:

[xsedrinam]

Originally Posted by pdham
I am a Clavinist
So you worship that mailman who always used to hang around with Norm in Cheers?
Thank you for making my morning. :D

[Sayhey]

Interesting opinion piece by Harold Meyerson on this topic in today's Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/19/AR2006121901282.html). I particularly like the last two paragraphs.

...The irony is that the Episcopal Church owes its existence directly to the American Revolution; it broke away from the Church of England during the war and was reborn as a distinctly American entity between 1784 and 1789. Fully two-thirds of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were active or (like Washington) nominal Anglicans, and, having repudiated the political authority of the king of England, they could scarcely have gone on affirming his ecclesiastical authority.

The founders of the church believed, within the context of their time, that all men were created equal. Today's defectors have thought it over in the context of our own time, and decided that they're not.

[SC68Cal]

I think it's kind of funny, when I step back about their choice of leader. They're willing to set aside their prejudice towards Africans in order to prejudice against the gays.

[princealfie]

I think it's kind of funny, when I step back about their choice of leader. They're willing to set aside their prejudice towards Africans in order to prejudice against the gays.

And can we impose our Westernized standards on foreign cultures? Eh? :mad:

[dukebound85]

This is the part that confuses me. How do you tell if it is a couple of any variety eating in a restaurant or just two friends?

A bigger question that perplexes me - if the Anglican Church believes that God is perfect, how can it be an umbrella for groups that espouse different theological views? Shouldn't the head of the church be the final authority and, regardless of the decision, either "you're with us or you're against us"? If you don't agree with the theology, how can you consider yourself a member? Haven't you adopted beliefs that differ and therefore one of you are imperfect?

or like the Seinfeld episode, if on the same side of the booth...gay date, opposite sides...friends getting lunch

[solvs]

I think it's kind of funny, when I step back about their choice of leader. They're willing to set aside their prejudice towards Africans in order to prejudice against the gays.

I was thinking that too, but figured I'd offend if I said it that way. But I'm glad you said it, because it seems pretty similar. The Bible was used to justify that too.

The founders of the church believed, within the context of their time, that all men were created equal. Today's defectors have thought it over in the context of our own time, and decided that they're not.
Good one.

[SC68Cal]

The subtext to "all men" honestly was "white men" being created equal. Fun fact for the kids.