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MacRumors
Dec 22, 2006, 10:48 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

According to several anonymous and unconfirmed reports, Apple will be announcing new Displays at MacWorld San Francisco. The new Displays are said to include built-in iSight cameras, making up for the recent discontinuation of Apple's external iSight camera.

Reseller sources have reported conflicting stories, with some saying that Apple had told them that the reason for the discontinuation of the iSight was because Apple believed that since most of their products contained built-in iSights, a standalone product was no longer needed. Such an explanation would seem to precede a display update with built-in iSights. However, other sources have indicated that the discontinuation may have been related to troubles getting the devices lead-free to comply with Europe's RoHS initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoHS).

Little other information is confirmed at this time, however there are some unconfirmed reports that the displays could see a redesign as well. LoopRumors has also claimed (http://www.looprumors.com/article.php?new-displays-at-macworld,235023870) that new displays may be coming at MacWorld, with a thinner and lighter design geared towards increased mobility.

[ Digg This (http://www.digg.com/apple/New_Displays_at_MacWorld_2) ]



Fotek2001
Dec 22, 2006, 10:50 AM
How hard can it be to keep lead out of iSights? If they can do it for their computers, why not the peripherals? I still think pro displays don't really need iSight.

sivancotel
Dec 22, 2006, 10:54 AM
new displays with built-in iSights or not, it seems the standalone version should still be available for people with non-apple displays or who already own an older apple display. if apple really wants to move communication channels towards video-based applications (e.g., rumors for the future of iChat on mobile phones etc.), one would think they'd want iSight available to anyone who wants to jump on board.

qubex
Dec 22, 2006, 10:54 AM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

That strikes me as rather unfair.

reno
Dec 22, 2006, 10:56 AM
it's a good time to refresh the displays, i think this makes sense.

i wonder if they will include an Apple Remote with the displays, with the magnetic clip so it sticks to the side of the monitor? i think it would make sense to do this since Front Row will be included with Leopard, along with Photo Booth ...

also curious if the specs will change. i assume the line will be HD. also, will they introduce any more sizes other than the current 20", 23" and 30"? I also wouldn't mind less Firewire ports and more USB ports.

finally, is it possible they will include touch-screen technology with the new monitors, especially based on all the patents we've seen?

Moof1904
Dec 22, 2006, 10:56 AM
If the issue is lead content, what's special about the standalone version that it would require lead that the embedded iSight does not?

In my admittedly uninformed opinion, if one can make an embedded isight without lead one could make a standalone version as well.

I agree that pro monitors don't need isights. I'd prefer to not have an iSight staring at me all the time from my 30" ACD.

Plus, a detachable iSight lets me do other cool stuff, like move the camera around for a better view during a video chat and use the iSight with Delicious Library.

ChickenSwartz
Dec 22, 2006, 11:01 AM
If the issue is lead content, what's special about the standalone version that it would require lead that the embedded iSight does not?

In my admittedly uninformed opinion, if one can make an embedded isight without lead one could make a standalone version as well.

I agree that pro monitors don't need isights. I'd prefer to not have an iSight staring at me all the time from my 30" ACD.

Plus, a detachable iSight lets me do other cool stuff, like move the camera around for a better view during a video chat and use the iSight with Delicious Library.

Maybe a way to add an iSight to a display and make it look built in?

This brings up an issue that was discussed a while back...there are many offices that do not allow cameras. At this point if you work in such a place you are out of luck if you want to use a Mac laptop, now are you going to be out of luck with Apple displays too?

Unspeaked
Dec 22, 2006, 11:01 AM
There are many large offices that don't allow cameras of any kind to be on employee's desks, for security reasons.

I wonder how this will play out in those types of businesses?

MattyMac
Dec 22, 2006, 11:01 AM
ehh...not so impressive.

Hopefully we see something groundbreaking!

...or at least just an update to the iPod.

Compile 'em all
Dec 22, 2006, 11:03 AM
This will never happen and even if it does Apple MUST sell a standalone iSight.

longofest
Dec 22, 2006, 11:04 AM
The lead thing is kind of suspicious, but that was one of the reports that we heard, so I included it.

It's a bit of a tricky story, but I guess we'll see in a few weeks.

dornoforpyros
Dec 22, 2006, 11:04 AM
lets see another price drop and I'll care about new cinema displays.

longofest
Dec 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
This will never happen and even if it does Apple MUST sell a standalone iSight.

Don't get too stuck on a standalone iSight. The standalone iSight, at least the current model, is definitely discontinued. That much we have confirmed.

reno
Dec 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
check out prices for iSight cameras on eBay:
link (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&submitsearch=Search&satitle=apple+isight+camera&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=08016&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=)

they are selling close to $200! i guess now that Apple isn't selling them they will be hard to come by and their value will go up.

good time to sell and make some $$$ ! (then use that cash to buy a monitor will built-in iSight)

ero87
Dec 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

That strikes me as rather unfair.

I agree, unless the new displays come at much lower prices (which is a possiblity, maybe? a nice $200, 15" display?) There's definitely a market for it.

Mr. Anderson
Dec 22, 2006, 11:14 AM
I have a stand alone isight and love it. I can move it around independently of the monitor and that's important to me, especially showing things to people - bring the camera to the object, not the object to the camera. So even though it will be nice to get built in iSights, I still think there's no reason to discontinue them and I certainly think Apple would know this.

Maybe they're going to update the iSight as well - give it higher resolution and are removing it for now.

D

paradillon
Dec 22, 2006, 11:16 AM
Bring on the 50+ inch display for the living room and go ahead, build the isight in :)

sivancotel
Dec 22, 2006, 11:17 AM
let's also all remember that the discontinuation of the current standalone iSight doesn't mean it won't be replaced with a different standalone model. if they really are worried about this lead issue, then maybe they're just taking the current one off the market to be replaced soon with a newew standalone version.

Warbrain
Dec 22, 2006, 11:19 AM
Well, when I was actually considering getting an iSight, I get boned. Oh well.

I've read that maybe they're making a USB model of the iSight since the built-in iSights are run through a USB connection. And that could also mean they're making them smaller...

But who knows? I might have to settle for a third-party camera now.

decksnap
Dec 22, 2006, 11:20 AM
predictable but annoying. We are buying six displays now because we need them purchased this year for tax reasons.

g-7
Dec 22, 2006, 11:21 AM
I wonder how those iSights are going to be connected to the computer?
Second USB cable from the display?

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 22, 2006, 11:21 AM
Interesting for sure, I myself have never a need for a isight or any other two way video communications, In fact I think its better that no one has to look at me or me them when talking? Talk about a unwanted additional cost. I really wonder if this was optional on your new purchase how many people would say no thank you. I wonder how Apple will price these but I guess they will point to this item and say thats why its another 100- 200 bucks.

dornoforpyros
Dec 22, 2006, 11:23 AM
I wonder how those iSights are going to be connected to the computer?
Second USB cable from the display?

UBS ports on DVI displays are quit common now and everything is handled through the DIV cable. So there's no need for anything else.

DTphonehome
Dec 22, 2006, 11:28 AM
I wonder how those iSights are going to be connected to the computer?
Second USB cable from the display?

Probably a combined power/data/USB breakout cable. More elegant, and I believe that's how Apple has been doing it until now. The current Cinema Display has USB and Firewire ports, so why not just send the iSight data along the existing USB cable?

markw10
Dec 22, 2006, 11:29 AM
I hope this isn't true. I have a MacBook Pro but am getting a Mac Pro next year and wanted a camera for that. I know Apple is into a lot of integration of components but as someone else said how about the Mac Mini's as well. If Apple builds it into their displays fine but most people go with non Apple brand monitors. As well, are there any 3rd party cameras that work well with Macs?

shawnce
Dec 22, 2006, 11:29 AM
UBS ports on DVI displays are quit common now and everything is handled through the DIV cable. So there's no need for anything else.

No standard DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI) cable (especially dual-link) provides for USB connectivity.

~Shard~
Dec 22, 2006, 11:30 AM
No more external iSights leaves Mac mini users out in the cold, since they're only option is to buy a relatively-expensive ACD, thus negating the whole cost benefit of buying a Mac mini in the first place. :(

As for new ACDs with built-in iSights, sure why not! Apple can release a nice 53" LCD display at MWSF which can be integrated into the iTV unit and, via Front Row 2.0 w/ integrated iChat, you'll be able to video chat with your friends and family from the comfort of your couch - and all in HD! :D :cool:

crees!
Dec 22, 2006, 11:31 AM
also curious if the specs will change. i assume the line will be HD. also, will they introduce any more sizes other than the current 20", 23" and 30"?

Weren't there mumblings of a 17" being re-introduced for the budget consumer?

longofest
Dec 22, 2006, 11:41 AM
Weren't there mumblings of a 17" being re-introduced for the budget consumer?

That was from DigiTimes :rolleyes:

No standard DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI) cable (especially dual-link) provides for USB connectivity.

You are correct. However, remember that Apple's current displays use one combined cord that breaks out at the bottom into power, DVI, USB2, and Firewire. So, the connections are already there for an iSight to work.

Ayre
Dec 22, 2006, 11:42 AM
Poor, poor decision by Apple. I'm studying abroad this summer, and I was hoping my girlfriend and I could get iSights for our Powerbooks so we could video chat, but since they're being integrated, and with normal iSights being discontinued, this could be a real hinderance. First bad decision I've seen from Apple in a long time, though.

crees!
Dec 22, 2006, 11:44 AM
That was from DigiTimes :rolleyes:

Oh, that's right. Nevermind then, my bad :D

Poor, poor decision by Apple. I'm studying abroad this summer, and I was hoping my girlfriend and I could get iSights for our Powerbooks so we could video chat, but since they're being integrated, and with normal iSights being discontinued, this could be a real hinderance. First bad decision I've seen from Apple in a long time, though.

It's only been a year since they've been integrated into laptops, right? You would think Apple would continue to carry them for existing PB and other laptop owners.

ChrisA
Dec 22, 2006, 11:57 AM
I hope this isn't true. I have a MacBook Pro but am getting a Mac Pro next year and wanted a camera for that. I know Apple is into a lot of integration of components but as someone else said how about the Mac Mini's as well. If Apple builds it into their displays fine but most people go with non Apple brand monitors. As well, are there any 3rd party cameras that work well with Macs?

Yes. The best quality "iSight" camera I have is my Sony mini DV camera. It's a darned expensive webcam but better then DVD quality. I think anything that works with Quicktime will work.

digitalbiker
Dec 22, 2006, 12:04 PM
Adding iSite to HD Displays is OK but discontinuing the stand-alone iSite is a bad idea.

Stand-alone iSite cameras have a lot more functionality when they are not embedded in a display. You can put them on servos and use them for survelliance. You can use them with adapters on telescopes for astro-movies, sun-spot studies, etc. etc. The uses are only limited by the creative mind of the user.

Stuck in a display they are religated to dumb video phone status. Something that really isn't all that valuable.

ChrisA
Dec 22, 2006, 12:10 PM
Poor, poor decision by Apple. I'm studying abroad this summer, and I was hoping my girlfriend and I could get iSights for our Powerbooks so we could video chat, but since they're being integrated, and with normal iSights being discontinued, this could be a real hinderance. First bad decision I've seen from Apple in a long time, though.

I head the decision was made for them by the EU's ban on lead. A lot of electronics can no longer be sold in Europe. This is a good thing because all of this stuff ends up in landfills and the metals leach into the water. If the ban takes effect in Jan 07 and Macworld is in Jan 07 that could explain why the new replacement is not announced yet, they are waiting.

Credit goes to Aple managment for running the inventory to zero right at 2006 year end.

If you really need one now just buy some non-Apple brand webcam

CEAbiscuit
Dec 22, 2006, 12:12 PM
The standalone iSight that I have seems to do a much better job than any of the builtin's not sure why, but people can always tell on the other end when I'm suing one or the other (my wife's MB or my PB with external iSIght). I think building a camera into a Apple display is a a liitle tacky... I always saw apple's displays as "high end" for pro's. Jaming a little camera into the top of the display just seems like a low end thing to do in my optinion because the quality of the camera can't be that great. Rambling...

Motley
Dec 22, 2006, 12:17 PM
Guess I got lucky a month ago when I walked into an Apple store and there were about 6 iSight boxes.

My mom falls into the category of macmini owner who wants to vid chat with her grandkids in another state.

Evangelion
Dec 22, 2006, 12:23 PM
No more external iSights leaves Mac mini users out in the cold, since they're only option is to buy a relatively-expensive ACD, thus negating the whole cost benefit of buying a Mac mini in the first place. :(

why not get a third-party webcam instead? they do work with the mac, right?

Stella
Dec 22, 2006, 12:28 PM
why not get a third-party webcam instead? they do work with the mac, right?

Yes, Firewire webcams will work out of the box, whilst USB webcam require a shareware Driver that you can find on macupdate or versiontracker. Such webcams are also often signficiantly cheaper than the iSight.

mkrishnan
Dec 22, 2006, 12:37 PM
Yes, Firewire webcams will work out of the box, whilst USB webcam require a shareware Driver that you can find on macupdate or versiontracker. Such webcams are also often signficiantly cheaper than the iSight.

I think Logitech also provides drivers for several of their cameras.

guzhogi
Dec 22, 2006, 12:41 PM
It's good that Apple's including iSights in its displays (saying that the rumors are true). That way, Mac Minis & Pros can have them. But, having a stand-alone iSight would also be good for those people who don't want/can't have the new Apple display. Hopefully, the built-in iSIght would be better than those shipping now. Higher res, autofocusing w/ hardware, and able to manually shut it off.

Also, I hope the new displays also have an IR port & remote so that Mac Pros can use Frontrow, too, if they wanted. I know, many people who'd buy a Mac Pro might not use Front row, but at least have it there if they do.

I also hope the new displays have higher resolution, too. Just so those who need/want higher resolutions have them.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 22, 2006, 12:42 PM
Poll leaves out the no choice like who needs a web cam?

TheBobcat
Dec 22, 2006, 12:43 PM
It might actually be smart for Apple to discontinue iSight. They've had cameras in their laptops and iMacs for a year now, and if they go into displays they probably assume that they've already sold as many standalone iSights as they're going to sell, for where its cost effective to make them.

Not to mention that anyone else that wants iSight can just get a third party Firewire webcam. Apple may even begin carrying other ones in their retail stores.

However, I also wouldn't discount the possibility that Apple revives iSight at MacWorld in a refreshed form. Maybe they just ran out too quickly and don't want to make more of them since they're producing the new one.

As for the refreshed displays, here's hoping to they price them competitively.

mkrishnan
Dec 22, 2006, 12:50 PM
Also, I hope the new displays also have an IR port & remote so that Mac Pros can use Frontrow, too, if they wanted. I know, many people who'd buy a Mac Pro might not use Front row, but at least have it there if they do.

If they do all this, I hope they're fairly clever in how they handle cabling so that this thing doesn't have to plug into six different places on the Mac side....

intlplby
Dec 22, 2006, 12:52 PM
although the built in isight is better for conferences, that is all it is good for...

i have a built in and a regular isight and i find that it is often convenient to switch to the other isight...

i sometimes put it in front of the widescreen tv and videoconference from the couch.

whenpaulsparks
Dec 22, 2006, 01:01 PM
i hope they have isight and isight-less versions available if they do. why would you need 2 isights if you have dual displays?

also i hope they intro a 17" model with 1440x900 resolution at a price point of $250-300.

fixyourthinking
Dec 22, 2006, 01:05 PM
I'll float the rumor that there will be a holder/charger built into future displays for the "iPhone" and ITS camera will serve as an iSight for Apple displays and for dektops.

D0ct0rteeth
Dec 22, 2006, 01:07 PM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?

fixyourthinking
Dec 22, 2006, 01:08 PM
i hope they have isight and isight-less versions available if they do. why would you need 2 isights if you have dual displays?

Agreed, Apple shouldn't force the extra cost onto buyers of the iSight ... however, if the new displays had an iPod/iPhone dock on them ... I think that would be cool

gugy
Dec 22, 2006, 01:14 PM
I want a 42"+ Cinema Display!:eek:

chabig
Dec 22, 2006, 01:14 PM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

That strikes me as rather unfair.
While you may rightly be disappointed, calling it "unfair" is a wrong. This is not a matter of fairness.

Check out this $60 webcam (http://www.ecamm.com/mac/imagewebcam/).

vmardian
Dec 22, 2006, 01:19 PM
Bad poll construction. You are combining opinion with intention.

Poll 1 should be:

Good Move
Indifferent
Bad Move

Poll 2 should be:

I will be buying one
I will be buying separates
I don't need a camera
I already have a camera

~Shard~
Dec 22, 2006, 01:20 PM
why not get a third-party webcam instead? they do work with the mac, right?

True, but they're no iSight! :p :D

(Yes, that was meant to be an Apple-biased comment...)

mkrishnan
Dec 22, 2006, 01:22 PM
Bad poll construction. You are combining opinion with intention.

Psssh...we know that everyone at MR falls in the "I can't believe Apple is doing something that stupid...please send me two" category. :D

cube
Dec 22, 2006, 01:23 PM
I have been waiting for the reintroduction of iSight to Europe for MONTHS.

why not get a third-party webcam instead? they do work with the mac, right?

Being worse is not even the main problem. The main issue is that the only webcam that works with all the software is the iSight.

Diatribe
Dec 22, 2006, 01:28 PM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

That strikes me as rather unfair.

Not if they introduce their rumored 17" cinema display...

MacVault
Dec 22, 2006, 01:28 PM
Good - they need to slim down the display a little anyway. The current one looks pretty good but too much border around the viewable area, etc. Also, maybe the new displays will match the look of the new headless ~ $1000 Mac I hope they introduce. The Mac Mini is too small to add drives, etc. and the Mac Pro is too expensive. As for the iSight - Yea, integrate them into the display, but still offer an external iSight for users with old Apple displays or with third party displays.

FF_productions
Dec 22, 2006, 01:28 PM
Cool, new displays that I can't afford!!

mkrishnan
Dec 22, 2006, 01:33 PM
I have been waiting for the reintroduction of iSight to Europe for MONTHS.

Are used ones not an option or unavailable over there?

Swarmlord
Dec 22, 2006, 01:43 PM
This will never happen and even if it does Apple MUST sell a standalone iSight.

Or a third party vendor will pick up the market and free Apple from having to engineer, package and sell this item.

buffalo
Dec 22, 2006, 01:46 PM
I think it's possible they could integrate the iSight into the Cinema Displays and also offer a smaller improved standalone iSight. But I have not intention to by a Cinema Display anytime soon so my opinion doesn't matter much.

hampy
Dec 22, 2006, 01:58 PM
I have a stand alone isight and love it. I can move it around independently of the monitor and that's important to me, especially showing things to people - bring the camera to the object, not the object to the camera.

D

I think this is on the money. The built-in iSight is nice, but it's fun to carry around my G4 PowerBook and point the external camera at whatever. I've been showing off my new baby daughter to my family on the other side of the world for the past few weeks, and since she sleeps/pukes most of the time it's a good idea to bring the camera to her, rather than vice versa.

mahonmeister
Dec 22, 2006, 02:18 PM
Apple displays are professional displays. How many pros would even use this web cam? It would increase the cost of the displays for everyone that doesn't want it. What if you duel or triple Apple displays on your workspace? You would have useless web cams on the other displays. I really hope they make a new standalone iSight.

But I would never buy an Apple display because they are overpriced and under-featured. Dell has the best displays for the price. Unless Apple does some amazing things with the new displays, I won't be interested.

drdan
Dec 22, 2006, 02:21 PM
It's a stupid rule, but for now, most governing bodies measure hazardous substance content as a percentage of the shipping weight of the product. Therefore, it's entirely feasible that a standalone iSight, weighing 1/2 pound, would not pass the test, while a 10 pound monitor with a built-in iSight, even with potentially more lead in it, would be fine.

-hh
Dec 22, 2006, 02:25 PM
I head the decision was made for them by the EU's ban on lead. A lot of electronics can no longer be sold in Europe. This is a good thing because all of this stuff ends up in landfills and the metals leach into the water. If the ban takes effect in Jan 07 and Macworld is in Jan 07 that could explain why the new replacement is not announced yet, they are waiting.

Credit goes to Aple managment for running the inventory to zero right at 2006 year end.

Um, not quite. The existing model can still be sold in the USA and elsewhere, so they're losing sales by not having *anything* available right now.

If you really need one now just buy some non-Apple brand webcam

What I really see as the bigger problem is that this is one more example of where Apple is writing themselves out of the business market.

We've already seen mention about how some businesses specifically disallow webcams to be brought into their offices (I'm in one such office), which means that even if I could have tap-danced around our "Must buy Dell" mandate as well as the "Must run Windows" (aha! boot camp), the built-in camera becomes one more stake in the coffin.

FWIW, the same also applies for Apple not having chosen the full width PC card in their laptops, which means no internal SmartCard/CAC reader in a Mac laptop, which is now required for secure network log-in by my employer.

Overall, while I recognize that Apple is still focusing on the consumer market, to be moving in a direction *opposite* of facilitating major businesses to ever consider their hardware is pretty much a guarenteed way to keep Apple out of the Office.


-hh

PS: Thanks to whoever put up the URL link of http://www.ecamm.com/mac/imagewebcam/

guzhogi
Dec 22, 2006, 02:41 PM
If they do all this, I hope they're fairly clever in how they handle cabling so that this thing doesn't have to plug into six different places on the Mac side....

If I heard correctly, the iSight in current MacBooks & iMacs use USB, so IR probably would, too. So there will probably be 4 cables: power, DVI, USB & Firewire (1 each). Kind of a lot, but I also heard all 4 are in 1 cable until the very end of it.

fblack
Dec 22, 2006, 02:46 PM
#1 there could be some privacy issues, when adding isights to all screens. Some offices, have strict privacy rules. Medical records, accounting records, industrial espionage, etc...

#2 I cant afford an apple screen, but my isight works fine w/my 20inch samsung.

#3 If its on a screen i cant use it as a cheap vidcam hooked up to a laptop w/quicktime broadcaster. If I want to show something in the room to someone I'm conferencing with its easy to move or manipulate the stand alone isight to get different angles. Now I would have to move the screen?

Many screens out there have built in card readers, and other video ports. I would rather see that than a built in isight.

All in all, this only gives me another reason, not to buy an apple display. :(

iW00t
Dec 22, 2006, 02:53 PM
Any chance that we will see Mac Pros refreshed to go with the new cinema displays? :)

longofest
Dec 22, 2006, 02:59 PM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?

Yep, and I've even done a 4-way chat once. Much fun!

gugy
Dec 22, 2006, 03:01 PM
Any chance that we will see Mac Pros refreshed to go with the new cinema displays? :)

nope.
Maybe after MWSF.

wheezy
Dec 22, 2006, 03:03 PM
While you may rightly be disappointed, calling it "unfair" is a wrong. This is not a matter of fairness.

Check out this $60 webcam (http://www.ecamm.com/mac/imagewebcam/).

It's still only 15fps.... that's where isight takes off past most webcams, 30fps full motion video. The half frame rate jumpy just isn't worth it, And... it's ugly.

fblack
Dec 22, 2006, 03:07 PM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?

Uh, that's why I have one. I use it several times a week.

You need to get out more, get away from your PC and meet some real people. So you can then go home and chat w/ them using an isight :D

cube
Dec 22, 2006, 03:11 PM
Are used ones not an option or unavailable over there?

I'm not going to pay more for an used one than what it costed new.

BillyShears
Dec 22, 2006, 03:13 PM
predictable but annoying. We are buying six displays now because we need them purchased this year for tax reasons.

Could you buy them now and return them for exchange when the new ones are released?

Huin
Dec 22, 2006, 03:16 PM
Man... I'm waiting anxiously for any rumor on Cinema Displays the last couple of weeks! This morning I got fed up with waiting and bought a 23" off the shelve... and now this!!!
However I don't really like the look of the new 'web-cam-happy' products in Apple's gamma.

Cinch
Dec 22, 2006, 03:28 PM
I know this may not be the forum for it, but a really quick question.

I don't have a .Mac account, nor do I want to get one. I would never get a AOL IM account. What is the best free app for using iChat out there?


Cinch

karlfranz
Dec 22, 2006, 03:36 PM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?

You're kidding right?

Open up your mind. Just because you don't have a use for something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either.

Example: My brother and mom live in another country. I haven't seen either in over 3 years. My brother recently bought a new iMac and now we video chat constantly. The first time my 75-year old mom and I had a video chat she started crying from the joy of seeing her son on screen rather than just hearing his voice on the phone.

MauiMac
Dec 22, 2006, 03:36 PM
I guess this is where eBay comes in?:confused:

karlfranz
Dec 22, 2006, 03:47 PM
I know this may not be the forum for it, but a really quick question.

I don't have a .Mac account, nor do I want to get one. I would never get a AOL IM account. What is the best free app for using iChat out there?


Cinch

I can understand the aprehension to sign up for AIM but you can sign up without actually using anything A-O-HELL related afterwards. It's really simple to get a AIM username and totally free. Just go here (https://reg.my.screenname.aol.com/_cqr/registration/initRegistration.psp?mcState=initialized&seamless=n&createSn=1&sitedomain=www.aim.com&siteState=http://www.aim.com/get_aim/congratsd2.adp&triedAimAuth=y&promo=380464&mcAuth=%2FBcAG0WMUdcAAPdpAFfX2UWMUhMIlLzj3NVKPoIAAA%3D%3D).

Cinch
Dec 22, 2006, 03:50 PM
I can understand the aprehension to sign up for AIM but you can sign up without actually using anything A-O-HELL related afterwards. It's really simple to get a AIM username and totally free. Just go here (https://reg.my.screenname.aol.com/_cqr/registration/initRegistration.psp?mcState=initialized&seamless=n&createSn=1&sitedomain=www.aim.com&siteState=http://www.aim.com/get_aim/congratsd2.adp&triedAimAuth=y&promo=380464&mcAuth=%2FBcAG0WMUdcAAPdpAFfX2UWMUhMIlLzj3NVKPoIAAA%3D%3D).


Does AOL still try to install or change your computer like it does with a PC? If not thanks..I'll give it a try.

Cinch

lorductape
Dec 22, 2006, 03:54 PM
as cool as this is, I agree that an external was also useful... maybe comes in future the iSight will be removable and will be able to use bluetooth to broadcast to the mac, in a self contained device, that charges when in the comp and uses battery outside

wmmk
Dec 22, 2006, 03:54 PM
meh, if the new ACDs' selling points are remote+FR and iSight+Photobooth, I'll just get a dell when I decide my MBP's 15" LCD is hindering my ability to edit photos. Well, that's apple's loss...

chubad
Dec 22, 2006, 04:01 PM
I guess Apple doesn't mind losing sales to government and industry installations that forbid cameras. The built in isights should have a delete option in Apples Build to Order program.

iW00t
Dec 22, 2006, 04:09 PM
I guess Apple doesn't mind losing sales to government and industry installations that forbid cameras. The built in isights should have a delete option in Apples Build to Order program.

The trouble is Apple would then have to make 2 kinds of aluminum housings for the displays, those with iSight and those without.

puckhead193
Dec 22, 2006, 04:11 PM
i think apple should have build in and the current ones so that the user can decide. Some may have no use for it or can't have video chat at work etc

bankshot
Dec 22, 2006, 04:15 PM
That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

Speaking of this, what is the state of third-party camera support in iChat? I know that all standard DV cameras should work, but that's significant overkill for video chat. What about third-party webcams? Somebody linked to this one (http://www.ecamm.com/mac/imagewebcam/), but is that it?

Interesting about the iSight being discontinued, but completely understandable. I was kind of thinking they'd do that a few weeks ago when I was looking to buy one for my parents, as I realized the Cinema display was the only one without a built-in camera. At that time, Amazon no longer had it in stock, but we had no trouble getting one at the local Apple Store. I guess it must have been one of the last ones? Good timing I guess.

lorductape
Dec 22, 2006, 04:18 PM
The trouble is Apple would then have to make 2 kinds of aluminum housings for the displays, those with iSight and those without.

whats the problem with that?

hotboiled
Dec 22, 2006, 04:22 PM
crap ... santa just dropt a 30" on my desk :(:(

Scottyk9
Dec 22, 2006, 04:26 PM
I know this may not be the forum for it, but a really quick question.

I don't have a .Mac account, nor do I want to get one. I would never get a AOL IM account. What is the best free app for using iChat out there?


Cinch

I think you can do this by getting a trial .mac account, and set up an email address. Use this for you iChat log-in, which should still work once your trial expires.

NewSc2
Dec 22, 2006, 04:56 PM
I know this may not be the forum for it, but a really quick question.

I don't have a .Mac account, nor do I want to get one. I would never get a AOL IM account. What is the best free app for using iChat out there?


Cinch

Well, I'd go with whatever your friends/relations are using. There are quite a few chats but they're not very cross-platform. Google Talk, YahooIM, MSN, ICQ, and AIM. Although I think Yahoo and MS made a deal to do cross-chats a while back. I solely use Google Talk and AIM.

And no, AOL doesn't try to install anything.

Oh and I guess Skype would be another one.

karlfranz
Dec 22, 2006, 05:15 PM
Does AOL still try to install or change your computer like it does with a PC? If not thanks..I'll give it a try.

Cinch

Getting an AIM user name does not involve installing anything on your computer. Just create a new account with the link I posted, but don't download or install the AIM client and you will be fine. All you need is a username and password. That's it.

Cheers.

technocoy
Dec 22, 2006, 05:16 PM
I'm thinking, in order of likelihood, the following:

1: MacPro 8 core (will become the top price model on the store)

2: MacPhone (I actually believe this might just be a new iPod with phone capability)

3: Display refresh with the iSight added and possibly new input options (not a completely new design)

I also think the iTV is going to be more that we were led to believe at the expo last time. They definitely have something up their sleeve with this. (I didn't list the iTV since it's already confirmed)

Snide
Dec 22, 2006, 05:20 PM
Oh and I guess Skype would be another one.


Skype works great, and takes seconds to set up.
I use it with my Macs and on PCs.
Much less hassle than settting up an AIM or .Mac account.
It will catch on soon enough...

aswitcher
Dec 22, 2006, 05:22 PM
I would like to see a new seperate iSight, geared up to being attached under/over big flat screen TVs and for Mac Mini amd Mac Pro users. I would also like to see them add features like IR receiver port for remote control.

They could also make a lot of sales if this thing could connect up to an iPod and become a simple video recorder/camera. Whooe new meaning to Podcast.

They could also enter the world of home security and provide easy to use iLife expansion to allow cameras to be used to hlp protect homes - a huge market for the future.

killr_b
Dec 22, 2006, 05:32 PM
This will never happen.

And my personal note- Dellz r teh sux.

Jebaloo
Dec 22, 2006, 05:37 PM
Surely if they were to refresh their displays, they would do more than just add isight?

1 - Built in isight (I would love this)
2 - Infra Red for using the remote control with (I would love this even more)
3 - make them less deep and with slimmer borders
4 - gloss/matt screen options
5 - and introduce a bottom end 17 inch one for those on a budget (for those who really don't like dell).
6 - If I'm really crazy I would ask for the flexibility in articulation of the screen that the old G4 iMacs had, I loved that screen and still think the current iMac's are incredibly ugly by comparison (personal opinion I know, but what's with the big chin?)

I'm waiting to buy a Mac Pro and a 23" Cinema Display and am currenly patiently waiting for them BOTH to be upgraded. Currently the MacPro at the low end is too similar to a 24" iMac to be seriously considered.

Bregalad
Dec 22, 2006, 05:57 PM
I think Apple wasn't selling enough iSights to make it worthwhile even with their high sticker price. I had an iSight a few years ago. I recorded a couple of brief video messages for distant friends who didn't have web cams and I took a short home movie of my infant daughter. I realized it was a waste of my money and sold it.

Certainly there's a market for video chat. My company even conducts job interviews that way for candidates who are far away, but there's no need for all of us to have web cams or we'd have them already. Putting them into all the laptops and displays doesn't change the fact that we rarely need that capability.

I don't think Apple should put cameras into their displays, but doing so won't prevent me from buying one; price already does that. (Apple C$799, Samsung $529, Dell $449). I recently moved up from 17" to the Samsung 215TW and I'm very happy with it.

I have to wonder about work places where cameras are banned. Clearly that keeps Apple equipment out, but what about cell phones? Almost every mobile available has a built in digital camera and it won't be long before they all do. Then what?

camomac
Dec 22, 2006, 06:07 PM
i really hope this is not true.
i use my isight for more then just chat.
i like to make little movies with it. (stop motion stuff)

VanMac
Dec 22, 2006, 06:11 PM
crap ... santa just dropt a 30" on my desk :(:(

That sucks. I feel bad for you.....

D34thPwny
Dec 22, 2006, 06:13 PM
i hope they have isight and isight-less versions available if they do. why would you need 2 isights if you have dual displays?
My thoughts exactly. More BTO options is what we need, I say! Glossy or not? iSight or not? Mmm... flexibility... I love the way you can configure the Mac Pro on Apple's site. Gimme more! :)

synth3tik
Dec 22, 2006, 06:13 PM
Or course this happens after I get my second display.

Spagolli94
Dec 22, 2006, 06:13 PM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?

I used to telecommute and used it every week. Now it sits unused in my closet.

As far as the display updates go, I hope they finally get rid of the pink tint in the 23" display.

VanMac
Dec 22, 2006, 06:14 PM
I know this may not be the forum for it, but a really quick question.

I don't have a .Mac account, nor do I want to get one. I would never get a AOL IM account. What is the best free app for using iChat out there?


Cinch
I havent tried it, but heard good things about Adium, especially for connecting to multiple types of chat software.
http://www.adiumx.com/

Abstract
Dec 22, 2006, 06:34 PM
And there have been rumours of new displays with built-in iSights forever. They were supposed to come out at Photokina as well, no?

I don't know who these sources are, but maybe I should send in rumours to these websites and call myself an inside source as well. Surely I have a very small chance of being wrong.

PS: Total upgrade from Merom at WWDC 07. New integrated graphics for MacBooks. I'm sure many inside sources will agree with me and submit the same rumours.

Small White Car
Dec 22, 2006, 06:36 PM
There are many large offices that don't allow cameras of any kind to be on employee's desks, for security reasons.

I wonder how this will play out in those types of businesses?

Wouldn't the rules be for PORTABLE cameras? So, you know, you could take a picture of something and take it out of the building?

The monitor can't store a picture. The photo HAS to go into the computer. At such a job all computers should be secure. In other words, you can't get the computer or the data on it out of the building wihtout anyone knowing.

So if the computer's secure, and the only place the iSight can save an image is the computer...well, I'm not sure it's a problem.

Now, iSights on LAPTOPS is an entirely different issue...

macintel4me
Dec 22, 2006, 06:42 PM
crap ... santa just dropt a 30" on my desk :(:(

Apple, I believe, has a 30-day money back no-questions-asked policy. That policy could be Santa's stocking stuffer. :p

chubad
Dec 22, 2006, 06:45 PM
The trouble is Apple would then have to make 2 kinds of aluminum housings for the displays, those with iSight and those without.

Or they could simply put a raised Apple Logo over the iSight cutout. No big deal even if they did make 2 housings. It's just the stock housing with a hole cut into it.:rolleyes:

joeboy_45101
Dec 22, 2006, 07:00 PM
I head the decision was made for them by the EU's ban on lead. A lot of electronics can no longer be sold in Europe. This is a good thing because all of this stuff ends up in landfills and the metals leach into the water. If the ban takes effect in Jan 07 and Macworld is in Jan 07 that could explain why the new replacement is not announced yet, they are waiting.

Credit goes to Aple managment for running the inventory to zero right at 2006 year end.

If you really need one now just buy some non-Apple brand webcam

Yes, less lead in landfills is a good thing. But I believe a sound and practical recycling program would have done the trick, lead-free solders are not as high quality as lead solders which could mean more product failures. There is already an incident of a nuclear plant system malfunction do to the use of lead-free solder. Like I said, an good recycling program would help keep these materials from getting into soil, drinking water, and populations; plus, it's not like ROHS reduces landfills anyway. With more product failures, do to lead-free solder, ROHS could potentially increase landfills.

Ha ze
Dec 22, 2006, 07:34 PM
Wouldn't the rules be for PORTABLE cameras? So, you know, you could take a picture of something and take it out of the building?

The monitor can't store a picture. The photo HAS to go into the computer. At such a job all computers should be secure. In other words, you can't get the computer or the data on it out of the building wihtout anyone knowing.

So if the computer's secure, and the only place the iSight can save an image is the computer...well, I'm not sure it's a problem.

Now, iSights on LAPTOPS is an entirely different issue...

true, but Email and Printed copies can leave the building

cheunghy
Dec 22, 2006, 08:05 PM
redesigned displays? how about Mac Pros with redesigned enclosure to go with them, probably with quad-core chips... :D

Small White Car
Dec 22, 2006, 08:41 PM
true, but Email and Printed copies can leave the building

Well if security is that lax I can't see why they'd ban cameras in the first place!

If one is really allowed to take print-outs with them, what's to stop them from taking the original document? Or hand-copying it and taking that? Clearly any place that bans cameras is going to have contol over what leaves the building.

I still can't think of a single reason to ban this type of camera in a place that bans cell-phone or laptop cameras. Those I understand. But this? I can't think of a single way to use it nefariously in such a situation. The camera simply copies data onto a computer which, presumibly, already has lots of OTHER secret information on it! Either all of that data is secure or it isn't. Adding a camera won't change anything. If all that other data is not secure, why are they worried about a camera? They've got bigger problems. And if it IS secure, well, the camera doesn't change anything then.

fblack
Dec 22, 2006, 08:48 PM
Wouldn't the rules be for PORTABLE cameras? So, you know, you could take a picture of something and take it out of the building?

The monitor can't store a picture. The photo HAS to go into the computer. At such a job all computers should be secure. In other words, you can't get the computer or the data on it out of the building wihtout anyone knowing.

So if the computer's secure, and the only place the iSight can save an image is the computer...well, I'm not sure it's a problem.

Now, iSights on LAPTOPS is an entirely different issue...

Hmmm...lets see, I take a pic w/the screen save it to flashdrive and then leave the building. BTW I happen to have a pen that unscrews in the center to reveal, yep you guessed it flash drive--theyre so teenie now adays...:D

Other places that are not so secure, but still have privacy rules and internet access, well you then don't actually have to walk out w/data on you now?

Small White Car
Dec 22, 2006, 08:53 PM
Hmmm...lets see, I take a pic w/the screen save it to flashdrive and then leave the building.

So cameras aren't allowed, but you're allowed to steal anything that's already on a computer?

I don't buy it. Show me a company that bans cameras but allow you to use and leave with flash drives. I can't believe such a company exists. And if you're free to send stuff via the 'net, well just type into hotmail what you're looking at and hit send! You don't need to take a picture of it to steal it.

Either the data is secure or it isn't. The camera changes nothing unless the camera ITSELF is able to leave the building. That's why cell-phone cameras are banned in places like that.

fblack
Dec 22, 2006, 09:18 PM
So cameras aren't allowed, but you're allowed to steal anything that's already on a computer?

I don't buy it. Show me a company that bans cameras but allow you to use and leave with flash drives. I can't believe such a company exists. And if you're free to send stuff via the 'net, well just type into hotmail what you're looking at and hit send! You don't need to take a picture of it to steal it.

Either the data is secure or it isn't. The camera changes nothing unless the camera ITSELF is able to leave the building. That's why cell-phone cameras are banned in places like that.

You seem to have an awful lot of faith in security. There are different levels of security and it is at the whim of human nature and budgets. I don't know where you live, but the local hospital does not do pat downs of employees with access to medical records. We have even had problems at the national level, like CIA agents who were Soviet spys (Aldrich Ames, 2001). Furthermore, I seem to remember that former employees of Los Alamos labs w/access to data on nuclear weapons had little difficulty leaving the premises w/data. Some may have handed nuclear data to the chinese.

So you can have a pretty secure place and still have theft. If you are in security you dont want to provide any potential tools for theft, so no cameras whether in laptops, phones or screens...:D

Small White Car
Dec 22, 2006, 09:42 PM
So you can have a pretty secure place and still have theft. If you are in security you dont want to provide any potential tools for theft, so no cameras whether in laptops, phones or screens...:D

I understand that stuff can be stolen and nothing is really secure. But no one has yet explained how a camera in a monitor would make stealing any EASIER. No one here has explained that to me yet. EVERY single idea posted here could also be done without the camera.

I still can't think of any plots that require a monitor camera to pull off.

Macintosh Sauce
Dec 22, 2006, 10:37 PM
Thank God, I managed to get a brand new iSight from the Apple Store right after I purchased my Mac Pro. :eek:

ChickenSwartz
Dec 22, 2006, 10:52 PM
How much do you think I could get for an unopened, brand new iSight?
I saw a few at a campus store, hmm...

EDIT: I guess the best question is, since I can look on ebay, how much did they cost retail/how much would I expect to pay?

kalisphoenix
Dec 22, 2006, 11:39 PM
I understand that stuff can be stolen and nothing is really secure. But no one has yet explained how a camera in a monitor would make stealing any EASIER. No one here has explained that to me yet. EVERY single idea posted here could also be done without the camera.

I still can't think of any plots that require a monitor camera to pull off.

That's logic, though. Which has absolutely nothing to do with policy, whether public or private. It all ties in with the reason that I disbelieve in the 9/11 conspiracy, the JFK conspiracy, the TWA Flight 800 conspiracy, and the Britney Spears conspiracy. The simple truth is that people all over the world are stupid. In fact, I'm willing to bet that 9 out of 10 people looking at this thread are irredeemably stupid. No, no one in particular -- I'd get banned for saying that ;)

I'll explain. I was in the Navy for a few years, trained to be a Nuclear power plant operator. The training areas were "locked down," in the Navy's amusing idea of security. Although the information at the school wasn't of critical importance (NOFORN [NO FOReign Nationals) and Confidential), the tightness of security at school was supposed to train us for our future roles in handling information that went up to Top Secret. So I feel fairly justified in saying that the Navy wanted it to be a tightly-controlled institution, even though any interested parties could find what we learned in those first two phases of training by visiting their local library. There is only one thing that I have not seen before in other information about nuclear power plants, and that is a temperature. Supposedly, that temperature is a highly-guarded secret.

Anyway, no cell phones were allowed. No cameras were allowed. All paper brought in had to be stamped NOFORN (in the first phase of training) or Confidential (in the second phase), which would make it illegal for us to remove that paper from the premises. No PDAs, calculators capable of storing values, nothing like that.

And yet, the training consisted largely of rote memorization and recitation. Of course, we also understood how it all worked, but we first needed to recite procedure, definitions, and so forth word for word. We didn't create steam plants -- we drew them exactly as they were drawn for us.

So, while we couldn't take a blurry low-res photo, or email a list of specifications to Ivan the Krazy KGB Kontact... we had our near-perfect understanding and eidetic recall of the information, which, I should remind you, was a necessary condition of passing the training.

To this day (and I was in the Navy years ago), I can probably explain the US Navy's nuclear power plants in both surface and submarine configurations, primary and secondary and auxiliary systems, and draw near-perfect diagrams of them down to the numbers assigned to the valves.

GFLPraxis
Dec 22, 2006, 11:49 PM
You don't know how many frustrated people trying to buy an iSight for their older Macs I've seen at CompUSA.

ChickenSwartz
Dec 22, 2006, 11:52 PM
You don't know how many frustrated people trying to buy an iSight for their older Macs I've seen at CompUSA.

What were they're retail price before they were discontinued?

fortetfn
Dec 22, 2006, 11:55 PM
It's likely that Apple is going to introduce new iSight integrated ACDs. However, if iTV is coming soon and there is an IR port with a remote like the one we have now. Why would they bother to put an iSight on the ACD and a remote when the pro users don't really need it. I don't think that I'd like to see a cam staring at me every time when I'm using the computer. I'm not saying that I'm all right. Just don't think that is going to happen too soon.

Apple would keep the integrity of the pro product. Why would you buy an expensive Mac Pro to watch movies with Frontrow and a video chat? Do you think that Apple would want to affect their iMac business? That is an option when iTV comes in. They probably realized that all their products have a built-in iSight, so Mac Pro needs one too. However, most pro users won't care for it. so iTV becomes a neutral option for them. I think iSight is just being refreshed because of the lead issue and they might use USB 2.0 too? You never know what Apple would do with their innovation.

OdduWon
Dec 23, 2006, 12:12 AM
It's likely that Apple is going to introduce new iSight integrated ACDs. However, if iTV is coming soon and there is an IR port with a remote like the one we have now. Why would they bother to put an iSight on the ACD and a remote when the pro users don't really need it. I don't think that I'd like to see a cam staring at me every time when I'm using the computer. I'm not saying that I'm all right. Just don't think that is going to happen too soon.

Very true. Why make the display have isight function when it would lessen it's appropriateness for professional settings? :confused: Much better to release the new isight as a separate product that will act as an isight camera and enable front row on older macs :eek: . Would make sense, i think, unless there is already a way to have front-row on your G5?
Also what about wirless isight? Or perhaps a frontrow chat application? Thoughts ;)

fortetfn
Dec 23, 2006, 12:20 AM
I talked to a representative who has worked for Apple for quite some time... he said that historically speaking when Apple stopped selling something, that means the new stuff is coming soon. The reason they do it much earlier is because they don't want to piss off any buyers who just bought the older product. For the online orders, sometimes they would just ask you to change your order. They would send you the new product. Like before MacBook Pro was introduced, people ordered their PowerBooks just right before it... they got upgraded to MacBook Pro... so if the new displays are coming this soon.. they shouldn't have just discontinued iSight, but also their ACDs. Hope this insight would help the iSight issue...

steamtoy
Dec 23, 2006, 02:01 AM
I talked to a representative who has worked for Apple for quite some time... he said that historically speaking when Apple stopped selling something, that means the new stuff is coming soon. The reason they do it much earlier is because they don't want to piss off any buyers who just bought the older product. For the online orders, sometimes they would just ask you to change your order. They would send you the new product. Like before MacBook Pro was introduced, people ordered their PowerBooks just right before it... they got upgraded to MacBook Pro... so if the new displays are coming this soon.. they shouldn't have just discontinued insight, but also their ACDs. Hope this insight would help the iSight issue...

Now this theory makes sense

aswitcher
Dec 23, 2006, 02:34 AM
I talked to a representative who has worked for Apple for quite some time... he said that historically speaking when Apple stopped selling something, that means the new stuff is coming soon. The reason they do it much earlier is because they don't want to piss off any buyers who just bought the older product. For the online orders, sometimes they would just ask you to change your order. They would send you the new product. Like before MacBook Pro was introduced, people ordered their PowerBooks just right before it... they got upgraded to MacBook Pro... so if the new displays are coming this soon.. they shouldn't have just discontinued iSight, but also their ACDs. Hope this insight would help the iSight issue...

Yep, sound but Apple may have decided to produce screens with isights and ones without, since many people wont need or want inbuilt isights.

They may also be aiming to bring out new sizes of LCDs possibly with multimedia etc, thus distinguishing them from current models.

In any case, I wouldn't buy anything from Apple until after Macworld

fortetfn
Dec 23, 2006, 02:39 AM
Yep, sound but Apple may have decided to produce screens with isights and ones without, since many people wont need or want inbuilt isights.


It's possible, but I don't think they would do two different casings just for that on their ACDs. I don't think it's that easy just to drill a hole for the iSight. They must redesign it in order to fit it. If they would give you an option to choose, why didn't they do it on all other computers? So you can have an iMac or a MacBook without an iSight. But again, I don't know any fact, so you never know...

Liquidog
Dec 23, 2006, 04:41 AM
What about the size difference between the stand-alone iSight and the built-in model? The original iSight is what, about 6 inches long, 1.5 inches in diameter? (Just guessing based on limited personal experience.) The ones built in to macbooks, etc, are quite a bit smaller than that. Perhaps Apple has just pulled the iSight to make way for a much, much smaller version of the same product. Look at the iPod, it's gotten smaller and smaller.

Maybe Apple will even make a foray into the digicam market with a combination iSight/minidv cam? Imagine an iSight, but much smaller, with a USB port for attaching to the computer, and attached flash memory, maybe even the same sizes used in the iPod nano. Such a device could be used both as a webcam, and as a hand held dv cam. It would use existing technology, so it would be fairly cheap. I mean, you could probably take the casing of an iSight, squeeze a whole iPod nano in there, and still have room for the version of iSight that's built in to the macbooks right now.

Someone mentioned how a DV cam would be overkill for video chat. Well, if it was Apple branded, and did double duty as a webcam, with maybe a 250 dollar price point for an 8gig model... it would be an incredible companion product to iMovie.

iSight becomes iCamera?


orrrr, even better: an iPod with a modular design. A new, small iSight could be one such module - when it's attached, the iPod becomes a video camera. This would work beautifully with a full screen/touch screen iPod. Plus, you could record a serious amount of video with the kind of storage an iPod offers, and even the current models have screens that are designed for video playback, so again, existing technology would be utilized, keeping the price down.

enough. discuss.

samh004
Dec 23, 2006, 05:25 AM
In any case, I wouldn't buy anything from Apple until after Macworld

Too right.

I reckon they have discontinued the iSight in Europe and the US for the lead reason and are trying to sell out stocks elsewhere for a new improved model, to be released at MWSF, probably at a different price point, so current orders wouldn't match up if they let people order the old model, then sent them the new ones instead.

I reckon it'll be USB based, somehow, and be a lot smaller than the original external camera but have better resolution at the same time. Maybe not HD, but who really can stream an HD-webcam these days ? Sure a few people can, but not the general population.

That's probably the most logical thing that'll happen, and Steve will make a big deal about how he squashed something far better into a smaller space. It'll take up 20 minutes of his keynote.

As for the reason for this thread, primarily new displays at MWSF. I just hope they don't look like the current iMac form factor, going from an even surface at the back to an angled one. You know what I'm talking about... the sneaky way they make the depth (from a side view) look thinner.

daneoni
Dec 23, 2006, 06:31 AM
Isn't this suicide. A lot of goverment agencies and even public ones use those displays and many hate any camera equipment in their buildings. Won't they be losing sales?.

At least make iSight integration optional?? and for the love of me please make them height adjustable.

elppa
Dec 23, 2006, 06:45 AM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

That strikes me as rather unfair.


Unless Apple bring out an affordable 17 inch display.

But it does rather take the bring your own display part out of bring your own display, keyboard and mouse.

~Shard~
Dec 23, 2006, 09:12 AM
MacScoop (http://www.macscoop.com/articles/2006/10/13/next-generation-of-apple-cinema-displays-to-include-hdmi) seems to think the new Apple displays will include HDMI, presumably to interface with the iTV. :cool:

BWhaler
Dec 23, 2006, 10:02 AM
I think this is a very smart move for Apple. (The fact that the pro line had no way of using Front Row and no elegant iSight solution was odd.)

Sucks for me though. I bought a 30" display about a month ago. Not bummed about it since I don't really use Front Row or the iSight camera. But it's never fun buying old tech so close to an update. No worries...

But back to the main point, if true, this is a great move for Apple.

aswitcher
Dec 23, 2006, 10:52 AM
MacScoop (http://www.macscoop.com/articles/2006/10/13/next-generation-of-apple-cinema-displays-to-include-hdmi) seems to think the new Apple displays will include HDMI, presumably to interface with the iTV. :cool:

I do wonder why Apple haven't shifted all their DVIs to HDMI (maybe not pro machines) given the size.

gkarris
Dec 23, 2006, 10:52 AM
Don't really use iSight, I have a cheap webcam. Seems like I'm paying extra for something I don't use. What is the built in iSight goes bad? You have to send the entire display in to get it fixed....

kenaustus
Dec 23, 2006, 11:08 AM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?

I did with my wife when traveling overseas on long business trips. Now my wife is having daily chats with her brother in Australia. She has long stays in the hospital for chemo treatments and the iSight is a blessing for both her and her brother. The grandkids also love the video chats. Our iSights are worth far more than I paid to get them and I hope there is a new version announced at MWSF.

AppliedVisual
Dec 23, 2006, 11:14 AM
MacScoop (http://www.macscoop.com/articles/2006/10/13/next-generation-of-apple-cinema-displays-to-include-hdmi) seems to think the new Apple displays will include HDMI, presumably to interface with the iTV. :cool:

Er... Maybe. But that would only make sense if they were to start incorporating speakers or would provide a secondary port to save consumers the trouble of dealing with a DVI to HDMI adapter. Many PC video cards now offer HDMI ports and include adapters... Few monitor makers have started incorporating HDMI ports unless they want the monitor to also be used as a TV or A/V display. HDMI ports also make little sense on the 30" displays as well as upcoming higher resolution 24" to 42" and larger 2K~8K panels that I'm assuming Apple will have along with other makers like Samsung, Sony, Dell, etc..

IMO, HDMI ports on video cards and computer monitors is more of a marketing gimmick than a real functionality. Even with the latest HDMI 1.3 standard, it is still a subset of DVI 1.1, rolled into a mini connector along with 8 channels of digital audio.

skellener
Dec 23, 2006, 12:54 PM
Not sure this is such a great move on Apple's part. I also won't vote because the option I would select isn't there.

It would be better to keep offering both the standalone iSight by itself, and monitors available with and without the iSight built-in. It's better to give the customer a "choice" rather than limit their options. There are plenty of places that love Apple monitors that may not feel comfortable with cameras built-in to them. Studios for example.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great if they offer monitors WITH the iSight. I just think they should keep selling the regular ones along with the standalone iSight. Everyone has different needs. More options are better for filling them.

Xapplimatic
Dec 23, 2006, 02:03 PM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

That strikes me as rather unfair.

Unibrain makes a FireWire camera that works without drivers on any Mac and is iChat A/V compatible for half the cost of the Apple external iSight. It has a built-in clip that will clamp onto any flat panel display. I recommend it.

I can't understand how it would be problematic for Apple to make a lead-free external iSight being that the internal cameras must be lead-free to be compliant and they are still on the market. Why not just mount an internal camera in an exterior housing with a slap-on USB 2 or FireWire interface? How hard could it be?

I do think it unwise to drop the external camera because the whole point of the Mac:mini was to bring your own mouse/monitor/keyboard.. But if Apple doesn't want to profit on camera upgrades, then perhaps their stores should carry competing camera solutions like the Unibrain cam.

GoCubsGo
Dec 23, 2006, 02:12 PM
How hard can it be to keep lead out of iSights? If they can do it for their computers, why not the peripherals? I still think pro displays don't really need iSight.

I agree 100% Also, thinner more mobile display? WTF?

Evangelion
Dec 23, 2006, 03:09 PM
Apple displays are professional displays. How many pros would even use this web cam?

potentially quite a few. and is there a law that denys non-pros from using it?

It would increase the cost of the displays for everyone that doesn't want it.

the built-in firewire and usb increase the cost for those who do not nee it. just about all prroducts have features that you do not need, yet we dont whine about those. and what if they added the camera, improved the specs and sold it for same or less money?

What if you duel or triple Apple displays on your workspace? You would have useless web cams on the other displays.

yes you would. so frigging what? you would also have useless usb- and firewire hubs as well. what if you only need 2 usb-ports in your computer and no firewire, woud you then complain about "useless features" if your computer had 2+ usb-ports and firewire? are you complaining about firewire 800, expresscard-slot and backlit keyboard in mbp if you do not need them? no you do not.

and if you really dont want to pay for "usrless features", go buy something else.

[quoteBut I would never buy an Apple display because they are overpriced and under-featured.[/QUOTE]

first you complain about "useless features", and then you complain because they do not have enough features?

AppliedVisual
Dec 23, 2006, 03:20 PM
the built-in firewire and usb increase the cost for those who do not nee it. just about all prroducts have features that you do not need, yet we dont whine about those. and what if they added the camera, improved the specs and sold it for same or less money?

Yep... I fully expect the new line of cinema displays to have built-in iSight. Apple has it on all the iMac and portable systems. The ACD line is definitely getting an update soon.. It has to. They're still using older panels and the 23" Hitachi panel they're using has reached EOL. I also don't see the built-in cameras being optional. It would cost Apple more to product configurable monitors with a modular camera than it would to simply put a camera in all of them.

I'm betting we see new 20", 24" and 30" monitors at MWSF. We may see other sizes, I know some people would like a 17" and Samsung is close to shipping 37" and 42" panels that would be of interest to some as well. Maybe Apple could use those. :cool:

Evangelion
Dec 23, 2006, 03:22 PM
I do wonder why Apple haven't shifted all their DVIs to HDMI (maybe not pro machines) given the size.

for starters, hdmi-connetors are crap. i'm talking about the physical connectors. dvi-connectors are a lot more robust. hdmi-cables are quite thick, and the connector that need to hold the weight of the cable is quite flimsy in comparison.

AppliedVisual
Dec 23, 2006, 04:08 PM
for starters, hdmi-connetors are crap. i'm talking about the physical connectors. dvi-connectors are a lot more robust. hdmi-cables are quite thick, and the connector that need to hold the weight of the cable is quite flimsy in comparison.

...Yep. And as I said above, HDMI is a subset or group of standards with an alternative (consumer-oriented) connector based on the broader DVI spec. It makes little sense to offer HDMI connectors unless they're going to be incorporating audio functions into the display and/or they wish to try and "simplify" connetions for the consumer. HDMI is also limited to single-link connections for now since the dual-link support was yanked near the last minute from the HDMI 1.3 spec since it would require a new connector. Therefore, HDMI can't transmit the DL signal needed to run the higher resolutions of the 30" displays and other new higher resolution displays coming to market.

intlplby
Dec 23, 2006, 04:19 PM
a more mobile display would be sweet, now i can easily steal an apple cinema display and put it on my desk

longofest
Dec 23, 2006, 05:07 PM
Isn't this suicide. A lot of goverment agencies and even public ones use those displays and many hate any camera equipment in their buildings. Won't they be losing sales?.

At least make iSight integration optional?? and for the love of me please make them height adjustable.

Had the same complaint when they started making all of the laptops with iSights built in. You can't get one without it. So, basically, most of the government is left out. But, you could always use another monitor with a Mac Pro or Mac Mini...

CJD2112
Dec 23, 2006, 05:10 PM
As I have a 23" Aluminum HD Display, I'm psyched to see what the next line-up will include. However I'm also a little anxious as I spent almost $2,000 on this monitor when they first came out in '04. If the new displays are priced that high again, I'm thinking I might pass, especially when $2,000+ can get you a sweet 42" plasma or LCD tv with HDMI and DVI inputs. Love everything Apple, but they need to re-think their price points...

vendettabass
Dec 23, 2006, 05:38 PM
If the new displays are priced that high again, I'm thinking I might pass, especially when $2,000+ can get you a sweet 42" plasma or LCD tv with HDMI and DVI inputs.

yup... higher price & I wont be able to grab one in Feb! iSights, thinner, and more USB please :)

OdduWon
Dec 23, 2006, 05:46 PM
They may also be aiming to bring out new sizes of LCDs possibly with multimedia etc, thus distinguishing them from current models.

In any case, I wouldn't buy anything from Apple until after Macworld
Are you saying that apple may design new displays with Front row in them? :eek:
this could take off as a companion to ipod. A sort of jukeBox perhaps. this combined with the rumors of the new HI-FI and new keyboard/dock could suggest a new jukebox like product. though it will be said that the cheapest imac would be just as good. I think it would be cool to have a flat display on a wall in your living room, and when you come home, it identifies your TelePod or iPod and begins to play a slideshow or playlist that you have setup. Apple would certainly be the right choice to bring this in to the now. ;)

retroneo
Dec 23, 2006, 05:52 PM
Apple isn't pushing HDMI for computer connections, they are pushing UDI.

http://www.udiwg.org/

AidenShaw
Dec 23, 2006, 05:55 PM
The current monitors have those tacky white plastic end caps - why does the monitor have to match a cheap MP3 player?

The CDs also have a pretty fat bezel, much wider than competing monitors.

Aiden's suggestions: Narrow the bezels, get rid of the tacky white plastic, and offer the frames in brushed aluminium and black-anodized aluminium.

But, never mind, since I only buy Samsung SyncMasters and Dell monitors.

superleccy
Dec 23, 2006, 06:16 PM
Update: MacScoop/MacOSXRumors indicates that Apple's new displays may include an HDMI connector and support HDCP.

This was good news... I was going to buy a Cinema Display next year anyway.

But if it comes handicapped by HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP), then Apple can shove it. I'm not having Intel, Apple or anyone telling me what I can and can't watch. :mad:

SL

dornoforpyros
Dec 23, 2006, 06:24 PM
Update: MacScoop/MacOSXRumors indicates that Apple's new displays may include an HDMI connector and support HDCP.


Ahh so in other words the their won't be new displays and they won't support HDMI connector or HDCP :rolleyes:

AidenShaw
Dec 23, 2006, 06:26 PM
I'm not having Intel, Apple or anyone telling me what I can and can't watch.
Expect to watch a lot of black pixels then - the people who own the content deserve to be able to control the conditions under which it can be displayed.

Of course, if enough people boycott HDCP by refusing to buy protected content, then perhaps the content owners will reconsider - but don't count on it.

superleccy
Dec 23, 2006, 06:43 PM
The people who own the content deserve to be able to control the conditions under which it can be displayed.

No they don't.

It's like preventing me from ripping CDs and vinyl I already legally own to my iPod for my own personal use, regardless of whether the songs are actually available on iTunes anyway. If the music industry could stop me from doing that - then they would... and heck, it's not like they haven't tried. It's not about what the content owners "deserve", it's about them lining their pockets through user-inconvenience under the guise of inconsistent and outdated copyright law.

Would I buy a pair of HiFi speakers that would only play songs I've bought from iTunes? Since my iTunes-bought songs only comprise about 1% of my music collection, the answer is no. And therefore, I'm not buying a HDCP display either.

I pay for all my content, I always have done. I don't share it with anyone, I never have done. That means I should be able to view / listen to it on any device I want to.

SL

AppliedVisual
Dec 23, 2006, 07:15 PM
Apple isn't pushing HDMI for computer connections, they are pushing UDI.

http://www.udiwg.org/


Yeah, but I'm not so sure UDI is ready for prime-time just yet. I'd be surprised if Apple releases a UDI display before the second half of '07, maybe even in '07 at all. The standard is coming along and is the next logical advance beyond DVI/HDMI so we'll see. If they're ready to jump on UDI, then I'm all for it. :D

Rocketman
Dec 23, 2006, 08:26 PM
Links to related messages:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=255429&page=2
#32

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=256390&page=3
#54

#72

Rocketman

marktwain
Dec 23, 2006, 08:59 PM
While I haven't heard for sure there are new displays coming, I can say we've been out of iSights for a while and been told we won't be getting any more. As for HD support, I overheard my manager saying he was waiting for the new Apple displays rather than buying a an HD TV for his PS3.

By the way...if you're looking for more Apple Store inside info...

http://applestoreinsider.blogspot.com

AppliedVisual
Dec 23, 2006, 09:46 PM
While I haven't heard for sure there are new displays coming, I can say we've been out of iSights for a while and been told we won't be getting any more. As for HD support, I overheard my manager saying he was waiting for the new Apple displays rather than buying a an HD TV for his PS3.

Well, any new displays from Apple should support HDCP and standard HDTV signal modes. Only makes sense, most other monitor vendors are already doing this. The Dell x006 and x007 series monitors all are HDCP compliant. Or I should say all of the '07 models are and most of the '06 models. Even the 30".

Rocketman
Dec 23, 2006, 10:18 PM
Another link on emphasized future Apple directions:

http://www.udiwg.org/home

http://www.udiwg.org/about/faq

http://www.udiwg.org/udi_spec/UDI_1_0.pdf

Rocketman

Digital Skunk
Dec 23, 2006, 10:32 PM
Sometimes I think people take these rumors too seriously or they have some pent up emotions that they like to let out on the forums.

This RUMOR about displays has gotten so many, "I hope Apple doesn't do this and if they do well ****** Apple"

I mean come on! It's just a rumor.

I agree with the folks that just didn't buy an Apple display. If you don't like them or can't afford them then get a Dell or a ViewSonic. If you like plastic in you display then skip the Apple and go right for the cheap stuff:D

And personally I think the built-in iSight thing is a bad idea unless Apple does it right. Screw the built to order stuff, that just hikes up the cost on one side or the other. IF Apple where to have a display with built-in iSights they need to market it to the consumers with a display that has the price tag of a cheap Dell monitor, and it needs to be made out of something other than aluminum (like plastic :rolleyes: ). And the Pros can keep their iSight optional. But update the stand alone iSight to be smaller.

p.s. It was about 100 posts ago where someone said that Apple should take FW800 out of the displays. :confused: Okay hardcore consumer with no external drives or card readers. GOTTCHA;)

mahonmeister
Dec 23, 2006, 10:43 PM
While I haven't heard for sure there are new displays coming, I can say we've been out of iSights for a while and been told we won't be getting any more. As for HD support, I overheard my manager saying he was waiting for the new Apple displays rather than buying a an HD TV for his PS3.

By the way...if you're looking for more Apple Store inside info...

http://applestoreinsider.blogspot.com

So you work at an Apple Store and are unhappy with the pay, so you start a blog on how to steal from Apple Stores? There are certainly better ways to deal with the problem then that. Have you no dignity?


This was good news... I was going to buy a Cinema Display next year anyway.

But if it comes handicapped by HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP), then Apple can shove it. I'm not having Intel, Apple or anyone telling me what I can and can't watch. :mad:

SL

I thought HDCP was like an "extra feature," not a limitation. How does it "handicap" the display? I certainly don't know everything about HDCP but this confuses me.

Rocketman
Dec 23, 2006, 10:43 PM
Sometimes I think people take these rumors too seriously or they have some pent up emotions that they like to let out on the forums.

This RUMOR about displays has gotten so many, "I hope Apple doesn't do this and if they do well ****** Apple"

I mean come on! It's just a rumor.

I agree with the folks that just didn't buy an Apple display.


Apple will sell media displays. Whether they are an also-ran like in computer displays or a market leader like in iPods depends on :

1. First to market
2. Compelling features
3. To some degree price and distribution (iPods broke that barrier).
4. Integration with existing and compelling future/co-released products

I have no idea where this will end up.

Rocketman

gloss
Dec 23, 2006, 11:10 PM
But if it comes handicapped by HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP), then Apple can shove it. I'm not having Intel, Apple or anyone telling me what I can and can't watch. :mad:

SL

It's not so much a handicap as a key. NOT having HDCP will cause you just as much trouble.

marktwain
Dec 23, 2006, 11:32 PM
So you work at an Apple Store and are unhappy with the pay, so you start a blog on how to steal from Apple Stores? There are certainly better ways to deal with the problem then that. Have you no dignity?

It's not my blog, I just came across it. But I do understand the frustration. Apple doesn't secure their stores very well, but apparently have no issue with claiming high overhead due to theft is a reason for their business model, hence the low wages they extend to employees. I would think there are better ways to point out things like that though.

Back on the issue of the displays...I'm not sure adding an iSight to the new displays means they are getting rid of the stand alone iSight. After all, there are tons of Macs out there without iSights they could sell to, not to mention PC users. More on that in a moment. And don't forget, Apple markets the Mac Mini, which is due for a revision in January, as "Bring your own monitor, keyboard and mouse." They're not going to leave those users in the dark.

Also keep in mind that Apple has always bragged about their displays being PC compatible. If they put an iSight in there, they'll need to make sure it works on PC's as well. Since they'll have to do that...the stand alone iSight makes even more sense. Another Mac gadget to show the world how great Apple products are, which will get more switchers.

GFLPraxis
Dec 23, 2006, 11:32 PM
This was good news... I was going to buy a Cinema Display next year anyway.

But if it comes handicapped by HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP), then Apple can shove it. I'm not having Intel, Apple or anyone telling me what I can and can't watch. :mad:

SL

An output device (like a TV) supporting HDCP is a good thing. That means players that use HDCP will be able to DISPLAY CONTENT.

If the PLAYBACK DEVICE uses HDCP, it's crippled. If the monitor has HDCP, it's versatile.

JeffDM
Dec 23, 2006, 11:34 PM
This is unfortunate for Mac Mini users on a budget. The Mac mini + CinemaDisplay combo is hardly a bargain for budget hunters. That means that Mac mini users will be left without an economically viable iChat A/V solution.

iSight is hardy a bargain either.

The trouble is Apple would then have to make 2 kinds of aluminum housings for the displays, those with iSight and those without.

The difference being whether or not a hole and camera is put in the housing. It's not difficult.

So cameras aren't allowed, but you're allowed to steal anything that's already on a computer?

I don't buy it. Show me a company that bans cameras but allow you to use and leave with flash drives. I can't believe such a company exists. And if you're free to send stuff via the 'net, well just type into hotmail what you're looking at and hit send! You don't need to take a picture of it to steal it.


Security policies are usually stupid. It's not as if it matters, they can pretend to ban something like that, but are they going to do a full cavity search on everyone?

Cameras are so tiny that I think they can be built into a small thumb drive. They aren't very good quality though.

As far as the display updates go, I hope they finally get rid of the pink tint in the 23" display.

I thought they fixed that a long time ago. I had not seen a 23" with the tint ever, though I've only bothered to look at them in the last two years.

As I have a 23" Aluminum HD Display, I'm psyched to see what the next line-up will include. However I'm also a little anxious as I spent almost $2,000 on this monitor when they first came out in '04. If the new displays are priced that high again, I'm thinking I might pass, especially when $2,000+ can get you a sweet 42" plasma or LCD tv with HDMI and DVI inputs. Love everything Apple, but they need to re-think their price points...


I think you can get a 42" plasma for just over $1000 now, but that's beside the point.

There is little sense in comparing the price of a computer monitor and that of a TV, they are meant for different uses. A TV makes a nearly useless desktop computer monitor unless you are vision impaired or plan to sit several meters away from the display. The dot pitch and resolution on a TV is a lot lower, many 42" TVs have about the same resolution as a 13" Mac Book. A few of them do have a resolution high enough to be comparable to 23" or 24" computer monitors.

fortetfn
Dec 24, 2006, 12:08 AM
I thought they fixed that a long time ago.


I think so too.. if you get a display after Aug (check the serial number) if it's manufactured after Aug.. the displays are good. I have a 23-inch ACD and it's manufactured in Nov... it's great... it's so bright even though the brightness setting is tuned to the lowest.

The new display rumor has been circulating for a long time. I doubt that Apple will update their displays. They just bumped up the specs in Aug at the WWDC. I think the rumor started because people are speculating that Apple has updated most of their products except for the ACDs... so they are hoping Apple to do that. I guess some people just can't wait to get new stuff.... Seriously, the ACDs we have now are beautiful and great... I have no complaints about them.

Any marketing experts here? maybe you can advise us how Apple is going to do their sales... I'll certainly appreciate that... so I don't have to keep on checking what rumors are coming out...

JeffDM
Dec 24, 2006, 12:24 AM
I think so too.. if you get a display after Aug (check the serial number) if it's manufactured after Aug.. the displays are good. I have a 23-inch ACD and it's manufactured in Nov... it's great... it's so bright even though the brightness setting is tuned to the lowest.


They are a little too bright for me. I am thinking of picking up sunglasses.


The new display rumor has been circulating for a long time. I doubt that Apple will update their displays. They just bumped up the specs in Aug at the WWDC.

The time since last update doesn't mean much. Apple updated their iMacs and 15" PowerBooks November 05 and, and they were replaced with updated versions three and four months later, respectively. I personally have no vested interest, I have my ACD though I wouldn't mind updating my other monitor. I don't have much use for an iSight, if I did, I'd rather use a camcorder instead. It won't look as good on my end, but the video would be better on the other end.

fortetfn
Dec 24, 2006, 12:38 AM
They are a little too bright for me. I am thinking of picking up sunglasses.

That sounds like a good idea....

AppliedVisual
Dec 24, 2006, 12:47 AM
I thought HDCP was like an "extra feature," not a limitation. How does it "handicap" the display? I certainly don't know everything about HDCP but this confuses me.

You're right - he has it backwards. You *WANT* your displays to support HDCP. The HDCP (High Definition Copy Protection) protocol allows for an encrypted link between the display and an HDCP device (up-scaling DVD player, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, many HD satellite, Cable, DVR systems, etc..). It keeps people from making casual copies. Although, that theory is pretty obscure as there really are no recording devices on the market right now with DVI/HDMI inputs and what's available in on the PC side of this is more specialized and expensive. So people aren't going to be ripping off video that way -- nor are they going to get a real good copy by the time they take a compressed source out to an uncompressed signal and then re-encode/compress it to store it on some form of media.

Oh, and if HDCP bothers people that much, or if you want to hook up your BluRay player to a non-HDCP display, there are HDCP filters on the market that make this possible. They're pricey (about $450), as they have to transcode the signal, but there's no visible quality loss. ...For the most part, these devices are only useful to people who want to connect an HDCP protected source to an older monitor... So the electronics industry is turning their back to the existence of these devices... For now.

w00master
Dec 24, 2006, 01:01 AM
You're right - he has it backwards. You *WANT* your displays to support HDCP. The HDCP (High Definition Copy Protection) protocol allows for an encrypted link between the display and an HDCP device (up-scaling DVD player, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, many HD satellite, Cable, DVR systems, etc..). It keeps people from making casual copies.

And this is a good thing for an honest consumer? What? Am I missing something? Lord. Sorry, when I buy a piece of content, I believe I should be able to do with it what I please, as LONG as I don't begin mass transmitting the product on a LARGE scale.

Anyway, (not turn this into a debate on big anti-consumerist "content" owners vs. consumers)... I HIGHLY doubt that Apple is going to put iSights into their displays. I believe the reason why Apple has discontinued the iSight from the store is because an update is coming. At least I hope so.

w00master

mahonmeister
Dec 24, 2006, 01:52 AM
It's not my blog, I just came across it. But I do understand the frustration. Apple doesn't secure their stores very well, but apparently have no issue with claiming high overhead due to theft is a reason for their business model, hence the low wages they extend to employees. I would think there are better ways to point out things like that though.


Sorry. I shouldn't have assumed it was your blog.

But you do work for an Apple Store, correct? Have you ever heard of someone trading an old mac for a new one? A friend of mine claims to have traded in a PowerBook for a MacBook because he was good friends with an employee at the Apple Store. Just curious.

Thanks for the info on HDCP to those who answered me. That's what I thought it was.

Spanky Deluxe
Dec 24, 2006, 02:18 AM
So as it stands now, 65% of members on here either already have an iSight or think this is a bad move vs 32.3% thinking its good. Ouch.

Personally I'll be really peeved off if they replace the displays now. If they were releasing new displays they should have done it at the same time as the Mac Pro was launched since now thousands of customers who bought ACDs at the same time as their Mac Pros will be peeved off at the rapid replacement. I know its been a few months since the Mac Pros were released but having hardware being replaced just four months or so after you've spent 1500 on a display isn't very nice, nor is the value drop that would happen. I don't mind as much if they make them brighter or whatnot but I'll be upset if my display looks 'old' in a month's time. Sure its to be expected that things get replaced but not so soon after the launch of the system with which said display is usually purchased. Hopefully some of you can read some sense into my ramblings here!!

PodHead
Dec 24, 2006, 02:31 AM
All these new Mac goodies!!! At least now with "new" displays coming out I may finally be able to afford the "old" model.:D

So as it stands now, 65% of members on here either already have an iSight or think this is a bad move vs 32.3% thinking its good. Ouch.

Personally I'll be really peeved off if they replace the displays now. If they were releasing new displays they should have done it at the same time as the Mac Pro was launched since now thousands of customers who bought ACDs at the same time as their Mac Pros will be peeved off at the rapid replacement. I know its been a few months since the Mac Pros were released but having hardware being replaced just four months or so after you've spent 1500 on a display isn't very nice, nor is the value drop that would happen. I don't mind as much if they make them brighter or whatnot but I'll be upset if my display looks 'old' in a month's time. Sure its to be expected that things get replaced but not so soon after the launch of the system with which said display is usually purchased. Hopefully some of you can read some sense into my ramblings here!!

I hear you brother, I bought my Mac mini DAYS before the intel models were released. Your case isn't THAT bad, though. They may have better refresh rates, or sport different sizes. The iSight intergration is nice too, but it is just a display at the end of the day. I have a Dell that has been a trooper for me. Now all I want is to get the older version of the ACD when the new ones are released (ironic).

MacsAttack
Dec 24, 2006, 04:41 AM
So as it stands now, 65% of members on here either already have an iSight or think this is a bad move vs 32.3% thinking its good. Ouch.


Which combined to the comment that SJ said when showing off Leopar at the developers conference that Apple was going to "support more third party cameras" in iChat would suggest that add-on cameras (stand alone or integrated into external displayes) is not where Apple is going - in the short to medium term (way after Leopard is released).


Personally I'll be really peeved off if they replace the displays now. If they were releasing new displays they should have done it at the same time as the Mac Pro was launched since now thousands of customers who bought ACDs at the same time as their Mac Pros will be peeved off at the rapid replacement.


Apple exists to make money. There is no better way to do it than to sell the same thing to people twice. Look at the rapid change in the iPod - a consumer product that changes every year. Apple considers their products (with the exception of the Mac Pro) to be commodity electronics (hence general lack of user-servicable parts in the iMac and Mini - they don't want the average customer poking around in there anymore than Sony lets people modify their DVD player). From a marketing point of view holding fire on new displays until after the Xmas feeding frenzy has let them off-load as many of the old ones as they can is a "good move". Truth is, only suckers buy computer gear in the run up to the holiday season. :D Better to wait for the new stuff that will always arrive by about April...


I know its been a few months since the Mac Pros were released but having hardware being replaced just four months or so after you've spent £1500 on a display isn't very nice, nor is the value drop that would happen. I don't mind as much if they make them brighter or whatnot but I'll be upset if my display looks 'old' in a month's time. Sure its to be expected that things get replaced but not so soon after the launch of the system with which said display is usually purchased.


Computers and associated peripherals are not an investment or an asset. They are an expense. The slow rate of hardware updates that the whole G5 thing brought to the Apple world has resulted in a false impression. Alot of Mac users are due for a very rude awakening over the next year or two... I pay £3,000 for my Mac Pro. I run it for 3 to 5 years. I give it to a family member when I replace it becasue I'd be lucky to get 10% of it's worth. That is how it has been with every computer I've owned over the last 25 years. The rate of change in the market has (if anything) accelerated.

The same thing is happening with LCD displayes. Apple is going to have to "get with the program" and produce better and less expensive displays than what they currently offer if they want to be taken seriously. The Mac Pro shows that they can compete on features and price both. It is time they did so with the ACDs too.

karmacoma62
Dec 24, 2006, 05:30 AM
I have been a faithfull mac user for alost 20 years - i own 10 macs, a few ipods, have bought apple software over the years and my buisness is as apple centric as a buisness can be. I own a bit of apple stock.

If apple puts a 'little camera' in all of the new displays I would not only be highly dissapointted and would consider this the first big mistake they have made for years, but would begin to seriosly loose the 'faith'.

They are already pricing themselves out of the display and monitor market as it is - thsi move would aggravate that - the prices on the monitors have to come down significanlty in order for apple to compete across the board.

please Steve - don't do it.

I joined this board today, to make my first comment in 20 years on apple strategy ....until now i felt you dind't need my comments - now i think you really do

JackAxe
Dec 24, 2006, 05:41 AM
And suckers often buy first gen Macs. *I KID* :D

I'll gladly pay a bit more for Apple's displays, since they offer OS X integration, things like Firewire ports, and overall better quality. Most competitors like Dell as an example, generally cut corners and wrap their products in cheap plastic to reach a lower price point. Dell makes some creaky displays.

I wouldn't complain if Apple did offer some of Dell's features though, like HDMI and component inputs, but the camera would be dated to soon, so I wouldn't want it. :o

<]=)

elppa
Dec 24, 2006, 05:51 AM
I can't see what all the fuss is about.

This move was an obvious step as soon as Steve announced that Photo Booth would be part of Leopard, along with the additional features for iChat video.

They wouldn't want their pro/mini customers missing out on the fun.

I bet plenty of other display manufacturers putting cameras in their displays within a year if Apple does.

I don't see how the quality of the camera is going to age any quicker than the quality of the display.

Plus you can just ignore the camera if you so choose.

I don't even notice the camera on my MacBook most of the time.

The only thing I would like is for them to make it easy to service, so if something goes wrong with the camera, you can just slide a new one in, without having to replace the display unit.

Analog Kid
Dec 24, 2006, 06:45 AM
Wow, I'm surprised by how negative the reaction is to this... It seems like such a little thing.

Personally, I've been waiting for iSight integration... It looks to me like Apple is really trying to press their advantage in video conferencing and this would certainly help. I know we'd use it at home when one of us is traveling. I use an outboard iSight at work sometimes and it's great. At home, I don't really want the extra stuff stuck to my monitor.

I've also been kind of hoping that all of this resolution-independent UI stuff for a future with high density displays might mean these higher density displays were coming sooner rather than later...

Spanky Deluxe
Dec 24, 2006, 06:58 AM
Wow, I'm surprised by how negative the reaction is to this... It seems like such a little thing.

Personally, I've been waiting for iSight integration... It looks to me like Apple is really trying to press their advantage in video conferencing and this would certainly help. I know we'd use it at home when one of us is traveling. I use an outboard iSight at work sometimes and it's great. At home, I don't really want the extra stuff stuck to my monitor.

I've also been kind of hoping that all of this resolution-independent UI stuff for a future with high density displays might mean these higher density displays were coming sooner rather than later...

The negative reactions are probably due to a) many people on here owning or having recently bought the expensive ACDs and so will be upset if they become 'old' models in a few weeks time, b) many people really like the stand alone iSight and if anything would prefer an HD variant instead of integrated, c) goverments, banks and even universities do not like webcams and as such would shy away from displays with intergrated isights.
Personally I fit in the first two groups listed above as I made clear earlier, I made a point of buying my ACD at the same time I bought my Mac Pro so that it could be covered by the 3 year Applecare. Many people have done the same, many people waited for the Mac Pro and then bought an ACD with it at the same time. A slightly faster machine is one thing or a slightly brighter display is another, a completely different look means it looks like 'old' technology which you don't really want with a setup just a couple of months old. I'd have expected the displays to stay the way they are until at least WWDC '07.

One thing that people often don't realise too is that a built in webcam into a large display is kind of stupid since people sit differently in front of them. Sometimes I slouch, sometimes I lean back, sometimes I lean forwards. With a seperate iSight I can tilt it depending on how I want to sit whilst in conversation. With an inbuilt iSight I'd have to move the entire display, something I'd rather not do on a regular basis.

davepoint
Dec 24, 2006, 07:25 AM
All I ask is that they give the specs a proper update so that the taste of paying well over the odds for a display with worse specs than cheaper displays is not so bitter..

WildPalms
Dec 24, 2006, 08:18 AM
I agree, unless the new displays come at much lower prices (which is a possiblity, maybe? a nice $200, 15" display?) There's definitely a market for it.

You're forgetting what the target of the mini is....BYOKVM

DHagan4755
Dec 24, 2006, 09:03 AM
Forget about iSights in Cinema Displays for a moment. Do you think this would be the time to start using LED backlighting?

Xtremehkr
Dec 24, 2006, 10:36 AM
Oh good, this is usually accompanied by a price drop. I hope that the price of the 30" goes down another $500. It's almost time for Apple to announce the next size up. I wonder if it will be a 37", 40", or 42".

AidenShaw
Dec 24, 2006, 10:53 AM
It's almost time for Apple to announce the next size up. I wonder if it will be a 37", 40", or 42".
For desktop use, the 30" is already almost too big - the corners are so far away from the center that you get off-axis effects.

Ever noticed that people with two or more displays almost always have them placed at an angle so that the view from the chair is centered on the center of each display?

For non-desktop use (e.g. kiosks or info displays) the 1080p LCD televisions are already at 46" and up - no hole for Apple to fill there.

I suspect that Apple will go for higher resolution - say 3072x1920 or 4096x2304 - but stick close to 30" for the largest.

Maccus Aurelius
Dec 24, 2006, 10:56 AM
Integrated iSights sounds nice and all, but one shouldn't have to get it when purchasing the latest Apple display. Knowing apple, it will probably not be optional. But since larger, stand-alone units take higher quality pictures, Pro users that have any use for iSights will probably prefer to have the stand-alone over the integrated, which is more of a consumer-level gizmo that's fun for iChat use.

Content piracy is a very very poor reason to get rid of stand alone cameras. If that were the case camcorders and digital cameras with video capability would be outlawed. I'm sure Apple will just bring a revision to the iSight. Being unable to fully control the direction of the camera without moving the actual display around will make the lack of a stand alone a big hole in apple's lineup. People with PPC laptops who don't have iSights may end up wanting a stand alone iSight, and if the stand-alone is abolished, Apple would pretty much slap pre-macbook people in the face. Being so early in the game, there are too many PPC users out there to suddenly abandon. How many of them would REALLY sacrifice portability for a giant display because of an iSight? Considering the prices of displays, a drop in price would make infinitely more sense. People would most likely rather pay less for the display, then use some of that money saved to get the OPTIONAL iSight, but not be obligated to have an iSight.

macintel4me
Dec 24, 2006, 11:10 AM
... I suspect that Apple will go for higher resolution - say 3072x1920 or 4096x2304 - but stick close to 30" for the largest.
Exactly!!

Livid
Dec 24, 2006, 11:23 AM
The higher DPI displays will probably come after Leopard ships.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2168

RichP
Dec 24, 2006, 11:45 AM
It is ABSURD people complain about new stuff coming out. If Apple just stuck to the same products with no new features or integration, then the company would be out of business very quick.

I dont think we will see LED backlight anytime soon. NEC makes a screen with one, and it is VERY expensive, albeit the image quality is supposedly much better.

It would be great to have higher-resolution panels in the current sizes, along with Leopard resolution independence; however, I dont think anyone on the market is making desktop panels that are high dot-pitch (the Apple/Dell/Samsung 30" has some of the smallest pixels out there). I think resolution independence is going to be geared toward the laptop market for so than the desktop.

Mr Ikasu
Dec 24, 2006, 12:22 PM
Probably been mentioned earlier but does anyone think that with the rumour that they will have HDMI input it might mean these will be more 'living room' screen as opposed to desk screens. PCs and Macs don't really use HDMI in my experience, it tends to be AV components, games consoles etc.

With the launch of the iTV in January and Steve making quite a bit about the move into the living room this might make sense no?

iDave
Dec 24, 2006, 12:24 PM
There's a camera in my MacBook. While I've never used it, I'm glad it's there and I know it didn't cost more than about $10. I might want to use it someday.

My list of desired features for new displays, not necessarily in this order:

1) Higher resolution
2) More USB ports (on the side, not the back)
3) Thinner bezels
4) Built-in cameras
5) Faster response
6) Higher contrast
7) HDCP (to properly display protected HD content)
8) Better prices

I hope Apple's displays are updated soon. Otherwise I think I'm going to buy a Dell. Dell's displays are nice and they're inexpensive.

Maccus Aurelius
Dec 24, 2006, 12:41 PM
I have a macbook, and I often sell things on ebay, so the isight makes things so easy since I can snap pics of all my items for sale on my system without having to download files from a digital camera. Integrated iSights are great, but I think the stand alone is still needed because people who have PPC laptops and headless macs with non-apple displays would probably not want to pay for a whole new display just for the isight. It just makes sense to keep offering the isight as a separate unit.

Edit:A few people i've talked to don't like apple displays because of their relatively poor response time compared to other displays. This doesn't really make much a difference to any user that's not into desktop gaming, but for those that are it's a big deal. A faster response time would probably sell it better, and more ports would be great since it means even people with computers that have anemic peripheral connections, like my macbook, would be able to expand even further. What kept me from buying an Apple display so far has been the price. They're great displays, but I can't justify paying that much for them, since other manufacturers provide similar if not identical image quality for a much better price.

iDave
Dec 24, 2006, 01:01 PM
Probably been mentioned earlier but does anyone think that with the rumour that they will have HDMI input it might mean these will be more 'living room' screen as opposed to desk screens.
I wouldn't expect HDMI in Apple displays unless Apple goes into the TV business like Dell and Gateway. As others have mentioned, the only reason for HDMI is to combine video and audio in one cable.

Since Apple is preparing the "iTV" for release, it would almost make sense for them to sell a TV to go with it but I don't really expect them to. High resolution computer displays are too expensive to be used exclusively as TVs. So an Apple TV would have to be a different product with a cheaper panel, built in speakers and a tuner.

Digital Skunk
Dec 24, 2006, 01:14 PM
I hope everyone that complains about Apple's Displays know that Dell and Viewsonic aren't leading the market when it comes to LCD tech. NEC, Panasonic and LaCie are pretty much the leaders with NEC crushing pretty much all other competitors.

Dell and Viewsonic specialize in selling consumer and low cost LCDs at a bargain price. NEC Apple and LaCie special in making monitors for the professional. No one is supposed to buy a Mac Mini with an ACD :confused: That is what the iMac is for.

If you are buying a MacPro and have already spent $3000 on it and can't afford the display of your dreams then...... :rolleyes: that's life. There isn't anything wrong with Dells and Viewsonics... the market for those guys isn't the market Apple is after.

iDave
Dec 24, 2006, 01:29 PM
Dell and Viewsonic specialize in selling consumer and low cost LCDs at a bargain price. NEC Apple and LaCie special in making monitors for the professional. ...There isn't anything wrong with Dells and Viewsonics... the market for those guys isn't the market Apple is after.
Yebut, how much can an aluminum housing really cost? Except for that, the Apple and Dell displays are basically the same. They use the same panels (from LG, last I heard). Except for small differences in inputs/outputs, what's the difference? Dell actually has a new 30" coming out very soon (if it's not out already) that beats Apple specs at a lower price. Sure, the plastic housing appears cheaper but for so-called "pro" use, it's a better display.

superleccy
Dec 24, 2006, 01:53 PM
An output device (like a TV) supporting HDCP is a good thing. That means players that use HDCP will be able to DISPLAY CONTENT.

If the PLAYBACK DEVICE uses HDCP, it's crippled. If the monitor has HDCP, it's versatile.

I stand corrected - cheers.

SL

AppliedVisual
Dec 24, 2006, 04:00 PM
And this is a good thing for an honest consumer? What? Am I missing something? Lord. Sorry, when I buy a piece of content, I believe I should be able to do with it what I please, as LONG as I don't begin mass transmitting the product on a LARGE scale.

And HDCP doesn't stop you from doing just that... Even with HDCP, you can mass transmit and broadcast. I think you're missing the point of HDCP and why you would want it on a display. But beyond that, I don't want to drag this thread into an argument over intellectual property rights, especially since HDCP has little influence or bearing un such things.

C.A.T.S. CEO
Dec 24, 2006, 04:00 PM
I think its a great idea that Apple is putting iSights in displays. a detachable one would be the best. with Wi-Fi. so you could put it on a stand if you didn't have one of the new displays or use it as a hand-held video camera that is in direct contact with your Airport card (that would be really cool if you had a MB(P)

AppliedVisual
Dec 24, 2006, 04:04 PM
Forget about iSights in Cinema Displays for a moment. Do you think this would be the time to start using LED backlighting?

Yes. Samsung and others are... Well, it's really up to the panel manufacturers, not Apple as an OEM monitor integrator. They have to buy the panel systems from a supplier (Samsung, Hitachi, etc..) and those panels usually are paired with a backlight system. Haven't seen LED backlights much in the way of computer monitors, but it's starting to really emerge as a common tech with HDTV displays.

Evangelion
Dec 24, 2006, 04:58 PM
Expect to watch a lot of black pixels then - the people who own the content deserve to be able to control the conditions under which it can be displayed.

the case here is that the content-industry is telling us that "yes, you bought it, you paid for it, and it's legal to make copies of it. but we will still assume that you are a criminal, and we will deny you your fair-use rights".

no, they do not "deserve" to treat us like that. the content-industry has become nothing but arrogant bullies.

iDave
Dec 24, 2006, 05:06 PM
the case here is that the content-industry is telling us that "yes, you bought it, you paid for it, and it's legal to make copies of it. but we will still assume that you are a criminal, and we will deny you your fair-use rights".

no, they do not "deserve" to treat us like that. the content-industry has become nothing but arrogant bullies.
Then vote with your wallet and do not buy any DVDs, while writing to the studios to tell them why you don't.

iW00t
Dec 24, 2006, 05:28 PM
Then vote with your wallet and do not buy any DVDs, while writing to the studios to tell them why you don't.

Your letter will be round filed.

Meanwhile they will just start crying when their sales drops further and put the blame on "piracy", using it as an excuse to push for legislation mandating some form of taxation or levy on Internet access subscription fees, CD and DVD writers, hard drives, ethernet cables, computers, and portable music players.

You can never win.

mediababy
Dec 24, 2006, 05:35 PM
OK.. real question now.

Who cares about isights?

Does anyone really do video chats?


I think maybe try it once for grandmas to talk to grandchildren for the novelty. Maybe online flirting. Photobooth fun for 5 minutes when you get a mac.
Regular chat clients seem to do the job.

So far have never been compelled to want to see who I am talking/chatting with.

The idea of a cam on a cellphone is a whack idea too. Like I want to photo report exactly where I am all the time, by a suspicious girlfriend/wife.

Plus now that we know the Feds can turn on a cell microphone when it is turned 'off', do I really what to invite possible unwanted video surveillance in my home?

Before someone says cover the camera or disconnect it from the Internet constantly. I think I will just live without it.

If I ever need it I will hook up my Sony HD cam.

uNext
Dec 24, 2006, 08:12 PM
isight built in on a so called "pro" product?

Come on, how beneficial can this really be? I have a macbook pro c2d
i hardly use the built in isight. I probably used it for maybe max 3 minutes
then back to the back of the list it went.

It seems to me like the people requesting or wanting such integration
are the 1% of apples share that strictly deal with apple based on design or cool factor and completely disregard the important principles of computing and performance. I much rather have 1 apple display that stands out in both performance offering and workflow ethics then to have a display with added unneeded peripherals (LIKE A BUILT IN ISIGHT)

I have yet to meet 1 professional who is excited about the idea of having a worthless camera mounted on the display (not even touching megapixel land)

just my opinion dell and apple displays are the same where as dells while cheaper tops the apple display and apple charges a premium for it.
Bring your lcd display to 2007 specs with needed high def accross the line, add more connection options etc.

Surreal
Dec 24, 2006, 08:35 PM
Yebut, how much can an aluminum housing really cost? Except for that, the Apple and Dell displays are basically the same. They use the same panels (from LG, last I heard). Except for small differences in inputs/outputs, what's the difference? Dell actually has a new 30" coming out very soon (if it's not out already) that beats Apple specs at a lower price. Sure, the plastic housing appears cheaper but for so-called "pro" use, it's a better display.

They don't use the same panel.Here is a very long Post saying the same thing. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=252327&highlight=2407+panel)

the only thing i want from apple are more connections, (just ONE Component in would do) but i think that would make for lower quality image without a hike in price. a large amount of the problems with the dell screen seem to be connected to the the screen's DSP.

tiem will tell if that dell 30" is "better" for pro use. i am in the market for a 24". before my research i considered the dell 2407 a better value. but a bit of forum crawling led me away from the dell and toward the gateway. then the gateway was released. now i wait for the NEC.

better is not always in the numbers.

iDave
Dec 24, 2006, 08:37 PM
When mass-produced, I don't think built-in iSight cameras cost much more than adding an extra USB port. We're talking about something like a cigarette lighter in a car; you get one whether you use it or not. It's not that big of a deal.

I think Apple is trying to make cameras ubiquitous. When everyone has one, then more will use them. Of course not everyone will. I think the idea of a camera in a cell phone is pretty silly but they're everywhere.

Meemoo
Dec 24, 2006, 08:51 PM
Hhmm, Apple displays with iSights would mean iChat for Windows.

iChat A/V for Windows with bonjour brings Macs and PCs even closer together!

iDave
Dec 24, 2006, 08:52 PM
They don't use the same panel.Here is a very long Post saying the same thing. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=252327&highlight=2407+panel)

Looks like an interesting thread. I'll read it all when I get time.

There's no question that there are some quality issues when comparing displays. Apparently the Dell 24 and the Apple 23 are quite different. And one might also expect to pay a slight premium for an Apple product. But whoa, the premiums Apple currently charges for their displays are excessive. I'm looking at the Apple 30" model which is currently $1999. The only 30" refurbished Apple offers is last year's model for $1699. Dell sells their nearly equivalent 30", usually on sale for about $1250. Dell sells the exact same model refurbished at $1050. What would you do? What should I do?

Surreal
Dec 24, 2006, 09:16 PM
^^^^
yeah. the apple "premium" wouldnt bother me so much, if i could hook up my wii.

the dell and gateway screens are actually fine for 'the average' person. i just like buying the best possible, because i end up finding out the differences. (although some of those early problems are deal breakers for anyone-banding)

Maccus Aurelius
Dec 24, 2006, 10:16 PM
So as it stands now, 65% of members on here either already have an iSight or think this is a bad move vs 32.3% thinking its good. Ouch.

Personally I'll be really peeved off if they replace the displays now. If they were releasing new displays they should have done it at the same time as the Mac Pro was launched since now thousands of customers who bought ACDs at the same time as their Mac Pros will be peeved off at the rapid replacement. I know its been a few months since the Mac Pros were released but having hardware being replaced just four months or so after you've spent 1500 on a display isn't very nice, nor is the value drop that would happen. I don't mind as much if they make them brighter or whatnot but I'll be upset if my display looks 'old' in a month's time. Sure its to be expected that things get replaced but not so soon after the launch of the system with which said display is usually purchased. Hopefully some of you can read some sense into my ramblings here!!

I don't think many people would feel the burn from that, since the image quality of the new displays probably won't overwhelm anyone relative to their present ones. People who have the soon-to-be replaced displays will be just as productive with them. The one thing that may annoy many would be a drastic price drop. I want one, as I'm sure the people that dropped their dollar for the present line up do, but I'll bet they'll feel ripped off all of a sudden.

OdduWon
Dec 24, 2006, 11:36 PM
isight built in on a so called "pro" product?
Come on, how beneficial can this really be? I have a macbook pro c2d
i hardly use the built in isight. I probably used it for maybe max 3 minutes
then back to the back of the list it went.

It seems to me like the people requesting or wanting such integration
are the 1% of apples share that strictly deal with apple based on design or cool factor and completely disregard the important principles of computing and performance. I much rather have 1 apple display that stands out in both performance offering and workflow ethics then to have a display with added unneeded peripherals (LIKE A BUILT IN ISIGHT)

I have yet to meet 1 professional who is excited about the idea of having a worthless camera mounted on the display (not even touching megapixel land)
just my opinion dell and apple displays are the same where as dells while cheaper tops the apple display and apple charges a premium for it.
Bring your lcd display to 2007 specs with needed high def accross the line, add more connection options etc.


Perhaps there will not be a so called "pro" display, but a more computer like display.Seperate from the redesigned ACD?

There was a patent a while back about a touch bezel screen thought to be an iPod model. Dont remember if it had isight built in of not. If there is to be an iNtelligent AD then it will have the isight like the imac.... But separate from the imac line? this seems redundant, why not just mac an iMac mini? Isight will still be separate.

As for it's usefulness, there will be improvements to iChat in leopard and beyond, so it's only a matter of time before video chat is mainstream, with phone technology progressing the way it is now. It may become the next big thing in communication. I mean even Linksys went and pulled a "chocolate", and laid down a suit of "iPhones" to try capture market before apple shows there hand. I think they are trying to slow them down, or maybe they think if they play the holiday releases, they can obsolete the apple launch models and cause the apple team to go back to the drawing pad. Funny :D , if they think apple is playing catchup, they have probably surpassed the functionality of the most modern cell phone. They are spending time desinging it for our iLives ;) not to become friends with our iPocketBooks.:p

also there will must be an external isight, Why?...Because if "iTv" is the same size as the mac mini, and there will be a iChat in the new front row, then there is only three options for an iSighted system,
1) A said external isight.
2) a camera in a mac mini.( or remote iSighted steaming Mac)
3) or an "iMac mini"

how else can we have photobooth on our tv?

just a thought, FIREWIRE is good for apple, in that, most PC's don't have a Firewire port, and this would boost new computer sales from switchers. But if you have a Mac Mini, do you have to spend a $149 to get it on your HDTV???

What will be setup for a Mac media center in the Living space?
"i" series display+Mac mini+itv+HI-FI Pods= Mac Media center?:confused:

davepoint
Dec 25, 2006, 03:31 AM
You know there's a lot of heated discussion going on here over something no one actually knows is going to happen (be it isights or if they even update the ACDs at all....) unless someone does have some confirmed info??

oh...and Merry Christmas :)

klaus
Dec 25, 2006, 08:54 AM
I don't know if it actually means anything, but it seems the displays now stand at "Shipping in 3 days" in Belgium and the UK. I'll check other stores right now, the US still reflects 24 hour - shipping.

Update :
Netherlands, also 3 days shipping
Canada , 1-2 days shipping.

Seems like there is something coming.

~Shard~
Dec 25, 2006, 09:39 AM
You know there's a lot of heated discussion going on here over something no one actually knows is going to happen (be it isights or if they even update the ACDs at all....) unless someone does have some confirmed info??

oh...and Merry Christmas :)

You must be new here. Welcome to MacRumors. We discuss rumors here - sometimes passionately. Do you get it now? :p :cool:

Merry Christmas to you too. :cool:

cube
Dec 25, 2006, 10:17 AM
Oh, and if HDCP bothers people that much, or if you want to hook up your BluRay player to a non-HDCP display, there are HDCP filters on the market that make this possible. They're pricey (about $450), as they have to transcode the signal, but there's no visible quality loss. ...For the most part, these devices are only useful to people who want to connect an HDCP protected source to an older monitor... So the electronics industry is turning their back to the existence of these devices... For now.

The filter you're talking about is not available anymore because it's not allowed to exist, and its keys could be revoked anytime.

And HDCP doesn't stop you from doing just that... Even with HDCP, you can mass transmit and broadcast.

I don't think you can broadcast with HDCP, as there is a 3-phase authentication and key exchange involved.

davepoint
Dec 25, 2006, 10:51 AM
You must be new here. Welcome to MacRumors. We discuss rumors here - sometimes passionately. Do you get it now? :p :cool:

Merry Christmas to you too. :cool:

Sorry - it's just I've been waiting so long for them to properly update these bloody things that I don't want my hopes dashed again :D

Digital Skunk
Dec 25, 2006, 11:10 AM
Yebut, how much can an aluminum housing really cost? Except for that, the Apple and Dell displays are basically the same. They use the same panels (from LG, last I heard). Except for small differences in inputs/outputs, what's the difference? Dell actually has a new 30" coming out very soon (if it's not out already) that beats Apple specs at a lower price. Sure, the plastic housing appears cheaper but for so-called "pro" use, it's a better display.

Perfectly understandable, but remember that it is also the designg of the case as well. I have seen the Dell displays and cable placement is horrible. Now imagine that times two or three. Now you have a crap load of cables and you have no clue where each one goes. Not only that, but their USB downstream is separate from their USB upstream and they are on either side of the monitor. The case is wider on the Dell than the Apple and Firewire is something that every professional uses.

Not that I am trying to prove anyone wrong or right... just saying that the Dells cater to a different market than the ACDs. I choose an ACD for the Firewire ports which I know I would need. I use all of the ports on the back of my monitor so paying the extra $300 was worth it to me. Not to mention that is looks nice on my desk next to my G5.

On the other side of the conversation though. My next monitor may be a Dell if they put Firewire in them and make the cords in the back look a lot better. That is unless Apple makes a monitor with Firewire 800 on the back or it.:D

~Shard~
Dec 25, 2006, 11:20 AM
Sorry - it's just I've been waiting so long for them to properly update these bloody things that I don't want my hopes dashed again :D

Yeah, I know where you're coming from. Such is the wonderful world of technology - hop on and enjoy the ride with the rest of us! ;) :D

Spanky Deluxe
Dec 25, 2006, 11:24 AM
Perfectly understandable, but remember that it is also the designg of the case as well. I have seen the Dell displays and cable placement is horrible. Now imagine that times two or three. Now you have a crap load of cables and you have no clue where each one goes. Not only that, but their USB downstream is separate from their USB upstream and they are on either side of the monitor. The case is wider on the Dell than the Apple and Firewire is something that every professional uses.

Not that I am trying to prove anyone wrong or right... just saying that the Dells cater to a different market than the ACDs. I choose an ACD for the Firewire ports which I know I would need. I use all of the ports on the back of my monitor so paying the extra $300 was worth it to me. Not to mention that is looks nice on my desk next to my G5.

On the other side of the conversation though. My next monitor may be a Dell if they put Firewire in them and make the cords in the back look a lot better. That is unless Apple makes a monitor with Firewire 800 on the back or it.:D

Agreed. The Dell's sure are good value and I like their multiple video connections in the sub 30" range, however, I really like the aluminium and the high quality finish on the ACDs. I have to admit if I were in the market for a 23/24" screen I would be sorely tempted with the Dell although I hear the 23" ACD has a better panel. The price and analogue connections on the Dell would be lovely though. For me, when it came to buying I wanted a 30" screen. I'd been using a 30" screen before but it was an LCD TV with a quarter the resolution, I wanted more pixels and didn't want to lose screen size so I saved the pennies and skimped on the RAM and graphics card on my Mac Pro to get the extra money.
The advantages of the 30" Dell are that it is cheaper, has a three year warranty and well, that's it. Its disadvantages are that it has a plastic casing that doesn't match the look of the Mac Pro and I think it lacks firewire. In my case though, I was eligible to the Higher Education discount here in the UK off Apple stuff so the Apple screen was only a hundred bucks or so more expensive than the Dell. Its covered by the three year applecare of my Mac Pro too so in the end I was paying only a little extra for the aluminiumness and I absolutely love it.
Had I had to pay full price for the ACD, would I have still chosen it over the Dell?? Hell yes. Its only in the sub 30" range where I would have faltered.

Right now I don't really see how they can improve on the ACDs apart from incremental updates in the brightness and contrast. The resolutions used are at the forefront of current technology and are pushing the limits of DVI. Only HDMI 1.3 provides the extra bandwidth for higher resolutions and these are currently unavailable in mass quantities for the screen sizes involved.

puuukeey
Dec 25, 2006, 08:04 PM
DRM


bah humbug. get everyone addicted to the standard then set the DRM token.

JackAxe
Dec 25, 2006, 08:32 PM
The Dell and Apple 30" LCD are the same, but when it comes to everything else, this is where the Dell gets "cheap" and skimps on components to meet a lower price point.

When the Apple and Dell were compared, the Apple scored way higher in color. You're paying for a SWOP certfied screen with a better color gamut, plus just all around higher quality components when you buy Apple's displays. Dell's screens are tailored more for the budget crowd that reads lots of text on a Window's PC.

I need to clear up something about contrast ratios, since Dell leaves there's at the factory setting, which is generally higher than Apple's displays, even when using the same panel. A higher contrast ratio, at least for desktop LCDs, blows out the lighter color values, where as if the CR is to low, the darker values get lost. This is why Apple originally released the 30" at 400:1, which is the version I've been using for 2 years now. This setting for years has been the sweet spot for color with LCDs, because it displays the widest color gamut.

A higher contrast is better for LCD TVs, or rooms that are overly bright, but for color work, or anything most of us Mac peeps do artwise, it has been an overkill with adverse effects.

I can't speak for some of these newer LCD techs on the marke though, like the LED, or even LCD lit LCDs from NEC. I'm not sure how they're effected by higher contrast ratios, which for screens like Plasmas as an example, is a good thing.

Amyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting a higher rez screen. :o I'm hoping Leopard's resolution independent GUI, means Apple will be releasing a 200 PPI screen, this would be absolutely great for Painter. I've wanted a screen of this rez ever since IBM released one a few years back, but the price, color spotting and horridly slow response time kept me from making an investment. And 2 DVI cables, blah... :)

<]=)

iDave
Dec 25, 2006, 09:24 PM
...Amyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting a higher rez screen. :o I'm hoping Leopard's resolution independent GUI, means Apple will be releasing a 200 PPI screen, this would be absolutely great for Painter...
Don't count on 200 ppi. It would cost a fortune. I'm hoping for displays at around 130 ppi without any price increase; hopefully a price drop, but I'm not counting on that either.

Mac Fly (film)
Dec 25, 2006, 10:06 PM
People with PPC laptops who don't have iSights may end up wanting a stand alone iSight, and if the stand-alone is abolished, Apple would pretty much slap pre-macbook people in the face.

Something I think people fail to see, is that a line must be drawn in the sand. If Apple thinks all-in-one is the way to go, then they must make sure they fully convince everyone they are right. When Apple killed the floppy drive from All their Mac's, most of the world thought they were crazy, in hindsight though.. they were not only not crazy, but they were right to do it, it was a good move. I suspect judging from past experiences with Apple killing things, they usually have insight that's hard to pinpoint in the present moment.

longofest
Dec 25, 2006, 10:26 PM
Update 2: Since our posting of this story, we have received a few claims that the story was purposely falsified. Our original sources were anonymous (as stated in the story) and therefore it is hard to verify the claims, however they do raise doubt as to the legitimacy of the original submissions.

Mac Fly (film)
Dec 25, 2006, 10:28 PM
Probably been mentioned earlier but does anyone think that with the rumour that they will have HDMI input it might mean these will be more 'living room' screen as opposed to desk screens. PCs and Macs don't really use HDMI in my experience, it tends to be AV components, games consoles etc.

With the launch of the iTV in January and Steve making quite a bit about the move into the living room this might make sense no?
I have no doubt that Apple is working on TV's, but I don't think we will see them at Macworld. Apple likes the all-in-one, so. I think they'll come out at Macworld 2008, they will have iTV inside, a small flash hard drive, and a DVD player built-in. It's inevitable IMO. Then or before then, we'll see the Apple TV service.

AppliedVisual
Dec 25, 2006, 10:31 PM
The filter you're talking about is not available anymore because it's not allowed to exist, and its keys could be revoked anytime.

That's funny, I know of three manufacturers off the top of my head who are making them. Or is this like all those Macrovision filters that "never existed"? ;)

I don't think you can broadcast with HDCP, as there is a 3-phase authentication and key exchange involved.

...Well that all depends. HDCP is copy protection for an uncompressed, digital data stream. Such as what comes out of an HD satellite receiver for display on another device. HDCP propegates or continues down the device chain only as far as the first device to end HDCP propegation. You can't technically broadcast with HDCP -- or I suppose you could, if you could come up with a way to truly broadcast an uncompressed DVI signal. The bi-directional authentication supports multiple downstream pathways for splitters, switches, etc.. Theoretically, this would be unlimited... The next thing you'll probably tell me is that DVI/HDMI splitters with HDCP support don't exist either...

Mac Fly (film)
Dec 25, 2006, 10:31 PM
Update 2: Since our posting of this story, we have received a few claims that the story was purposely falsified. Our original sources were anonymous (as stated in the story) and therefore it is hard to verify the claims, however they do raise doubt as to the legitimacy of the original submissions.
Who cares if it's legitimate, the claims are true. Lads, it's a bloomin' dot on the bezel, big deal. You'll all get over this one when they do it, over time.

If you want a stand alone camera others are available, deal with that.

Hhmm, Apple displays with iSights would mean iChat for Windows.

iChat A/V for Windows with bonjour brings Macs and PCs even closer together!
While I don't get your logic here, I've been calling iChat for windows ever since I was convinced the Apple phone is coming. Apple will leverage the internet using iChat for true iPhone integration, and make it Windows, just like iTunes.

MacFly123
Dec 26, 2006, 01:01 AM
I don't think it's that difficult. You add a built in iSight to the ACDs as default and say...$100 bucks off if you downgrade without a built in iSight when purchasing. Also, they add the remote for front row which I can say I have VERY MUCH missed having on my Mac Pro. And they still offer the stand alone upgraded iSight for those with other, or older monitors. Wouldn't that all be win win? Of course they will probably add a small affordable display as well as a large display for home theathre use :)

iDave
Dec 26, 2006, 01:14 AM
I don't think it's that difficult. You add a built in iSight to the ACDs as default and say...$100 bucks off if you downgrade without a built in iSight when purchasing...
I doubt very much if the iSight cameras built into (iMac/MacBook) displays cost Apple more than about $10-15 each. If so you're certainly not going to get $100 off by declining one. I say put them in there and supply a roll of duct tape with every purchase for those who don't want a camera pointed at them. :D

MacFly123
Dec 26, 2006, 01:26 AM
I was just throwing a number out there, not trying to predict an actual price reduction. It's not about what it costs THEM, it's about what it costs US the consumer. Not to mention, what if you have multiple displays??? You gunna have 3 iSights for a multi-camera shoot?? haha

karmacoma62
Dec 26, 2006, 01:41 AM
for all of those in favour of a built in camera - read on:

i am the owner of a small studio, we have about 10 macs....no PC's

Keeping a small studio alive and competitive is a struggle - we depend on macs to give us the cutting edge, but that choice also comes at a price.
Until recently we have been unable to run AutoCad or Rhino, and believe you me, that cost us many a client and lost us many a job.
But I stuck to apple.
We own just about every apple product ever released.....10 or 15 active MACs tucked under our desks (not to mention the many many 'unactive' and outdated machines in Storage) - we have bought most of the software that Apple makes, We have 3 airports, we almost all have ipods, we have an IChat camera or 2 - and we're all going to be buying an I phone when it comes out (if) and most of us will be buying an ITV for the home......

But we don't own a single Mac Display.

I keep waiting for a competititve price on Apple Displays - and I know very well that if they put a little camera inside each display that they will not be able to remain competitive. Some of us have Mac Book Pros - many of us have never used the little camera. I do, every day...it is great, but I don't want all of my staff to have one - they don't need it! Not now, not ever.
For those of you who insist it will only be a 10 dollar increase, get a clue.
It will put about 75 dollars (minimum) on top of the price.
This will mean that the existing display price will not be able to go down substantialy. In fact, the price will most likely remain the same.
Now, lets look at the competition.....sure, there is not a single attractive monitor out there, save for the NEC line, so Apple is the only REAL choice, but when it comes to price, there is a huge difference between Apple and everyone else.
So guess what? If I have to buy 10 monitors in Januarry and i was anxiosly awaiting an Apple price drop and I have to remain competitive and if Apple puts a tiny camera in all of the monitors, what am i going to do?
Do you believe that an Apple display will only cost 10 dollors more than the competition?
Do your math, and post your reply.
....and if you are looking for a job as office manager, please DON'T give me a call - It's competitive out there, and i need to have a real edge, thats called thinking different.

VanMac
Dec 26, 2006, 08:56 AM
I have been a faithfull mac user for alost 20 years - i own 10 macs, a few ipods, have bought apple software over the years and my buisness is as apple centric as a buisness can be. I own a bit of apple stock.

If apple puts a 'little camera' in all of the new displays I would not only be highly dissapointted and would consider this the first big mistake they have made for years, but would begin to seriosly loose the 'faith'.

please Steve - don't do it.

I joined this board today, to make my first comment in 20 years on apple strategy ....until now i felt you dind't need my comments - now i think you really do
Welcome to the board! Sounds like you have a nice little business going on. Congrats.

I think Apple is more concerned with style and 'perfection' as oppossed to price point, especially on Displays. If you need to run a tight ship at the office, an Apple display is not for you. If however, you were in a trendy spot with lots of hip clients walking into your 'studio', then you should put a mac display on every desk......likely help land a contract.

I seriously doubt anyone at apple is concerned with my opinions or yours, so any comments on apple strategy are completely futile, other them maybe making us feel better for stating them.

Digital Skunk
Dec 26, 2006, 09:15 AM
for all of those in favour of a built in camera - read on:

i am the owner of a small studio, we have about 10 macs....no PC's

Keeping a small studio alive and competitive is a struggle - we depend on macs to give us the cutting edge, but that choice also comes at a price.
Until recently we have been unable to run AutoCad or Rhino, and believe you me, that cost us many a client and lost us many a job.
But I stuck to apple.
We own just about every apple product ever released.....10 or 15 active MACs tucked under our desks (not to mention the many many 'unactive' and outdated machines in Storage) - we have bought most of the software that Apple makes, We have 3 airports, we almost all have ipods, we have an IChat camera or 2 - and we're all going to be buying an I phone when it comes out (if) and most of us will be buying an ITV for the home......

But we don't own a single Mac Display.

I keep waiting for a competititve price on Apple Displays

As a business you should be running some emulation software to run those PC only programs. If you are loosing client because of some program that only runs on a PC then get a PC or get Virtual PC, especially if you own all that Mac software. Then you can keep your clients and your Macs.

And for the last time Apple has competitive displays. Nobody really understands what a real LCD display is. Look at the companies that make real displays like Nec and LaCie... their 19 inchers start out at $1800 but ther specs can't be matched by Dell (who by the way sells consumer, not professional, displays)

Everyone that says these things are like PC owner. "why should I get a Mac when I can get a cheaper blah blah blah.... Apple is overpriced... I can get a Dell, HP, Compaq, DIYS...blah blah blah...whine, cry, B*T*H all day long. :mad: GEEZ! >_<

Totally DIFFERENT MARKET for the Apple Displays than the Dell, Viewsonic, and other El Cheapo monitors. >_< :mad: Please believe that Apple has been making high spec displays for years, and I and plenty of other color syncing crazy professionals out there want them to NEVER STOP!

No if Apple made a cheap LCD display to compete with Dell and the other companies that is fine. But that does not mean that their monitors are expensive and overpriced. If you can't afford it then don't get it, but don't get jealous and start tossing mud all over the product because of your feelings, convictions or inability to access one.

RESEARCH TO FIND OUT WHY !!

iDave
Dec 26, 2006, 09:16 AM
To use a specific example the 30" displays from Apple and Dell Apple's is already priced about $750 more than Dell's when Dell's is on sale. Leaving out a $10 camera isn't going to help close that gap by much. I can't debate the real cost of those cameras because I don't really know.

I'd like to hear from someone who really does know the cost of a tiny fixed-focus video camera because I'd be shocked to hear that they cost anywhere near the $75 (in bulk) that karmacoma62 suggests. I believe we're talking about a commodity item; i.e. not much more money than adding an extra Firewire or USB port (but I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again). :)

Aniej
Dec 26, 2006, 09:53 AM
I was at the WaWa the other day and wearing this Apple t-shirt and the clerk behind the counter said you excited about the new displays? I said nah I don't need a 30'' display. The clerk said 30'' no no I'm talking about apple releasing plasma televisions......:rolleyes:

Mac Fly (film)
Dec 26, 2006, 10:03 AM
I was at the WaWa the other day and wearing this Apple t-shirt and the clerk behind the counter said you excited about the new displays? I said nah I don't need a 30'' display. The clerk said 30'' no no I'm talking about apple releasing plasma televisions......:rolleyes:

Hey now, me like! :D

karmacoma62
Dec 26, 2006, 10:25 AM
I think Apple is more concerned with style and 'perfection' as oppossed to price point, especially on Displays. If you need to run a tight ship at the office, an Apple display is not for you. If however, you were in a trendy spot with lots of hip clients walking into your 'studio', then you should put a mac display on every desk......likely help land a contract.

Hmm - Let's jsut say that we're a highly rated international design studio - and have lots of high profile trendy companies in and out on an almost daily basis....we've even had some of Apple's top designers in !!!! (Don't tell Steve)
So, I'm not really whining or sniffling guys, I just think that I know what 'good, solid, simple end-to-end design means' and I have yet to find it in an Apple Display.
At the moment, for now, my money is going to other companies making high quality displays at a price point I feel is more honest (and that doesn't mean lower!!!).

Listen, I use the video option of IChat on an almost daily basis, so don't get me wrong - I just don't see a built in video on EVERY display as a good strategic move.

karmacoma62
Dec 26, 2006, 10:28 AM
I'd like to hear from someone who really does know the cost of a tiny fixed-focus video camera because I'd be shocked to hear that they cost anywhere near the $75 (in bulk) that karmacoma62 suggests.

I think they probably run around 8 or 9 dollars, so when you add in installation and the proper Firewire jack, you've brought it up to about 13 or 14 dollars.....standard markup on the cost of a component to shelf on this type of product can be about 5 or 5 1/2 times higher, which is where the 75$ ticket came from.......

iDave
Dec 26, 2006, 10:40 AM
I think they probably run around 8 or 9 dollars, so when you add in installation and the proper Firewire jack, you've brought it up to about 13 or 14 dollars.....standard markup on the cost of a component to shelf on this type of product can be about 5 or 5 1/2 times higher, which is where the 75$ ticket came from.......
Ok, fair enough.

To comment on your previous post Unlike you and or your company, I think most users have only one display on their desk. So we're not talking about having a camera in EVERY display; only about having a camera in my display, his display or her display. IMO it's way better than having a dongle (iSight) attached to the top of a display with a clip. (That's not to say there aren't advantages to external iSights.)

VanMac
Dec 26, 2006, 10:56 AM
Hmm - Let's jsut say that we're a highly rated international design studio - and have lots of high profile trendy companies in and out on an almost daily basis....we've even had some of Apple's top designers in !!!! (Don't tell Steve)

Then I think your missing the boat. If I was running a highly rated international trendy studio with high profile clients, I would plop $30K down and sprinkle 30" Apple displays all around the office. The extra you pay for the Apple logo would pay for itself in marketing your company and talents. Image is everything.

karmacoma62
Dec 26, 2006, 11:22 AM
Then I think your missing the boat. If I was running a highly rated international trendy studio with high profile clients, I would plop $30K down and sprinkle 30" Apple displays all around the office. The extra you pay for the Apple logo would pay for itself in marketing your company and talents. Image is everything.

Maybe it is not I missing the boat - true, apple makes some of the best designed displays on the market - perhaps the best......But they are not alone.
I plop down huge sums of money on a monthly basis......but I'm not gonna plop down for Aplle monitors at the moment, since last year I plopped down for the elegant simple NEC's - i want to upgrade but if Apple inserts a tiny eye in every single monitor in their line-up, i personally think they are limiting their potential......

Many clients are impressed by the apple logo, but not all of them are so dumb to look just at the logo, they also are impressed by other companies, and also by value.....

jellomizer
Dec 26, 2006, 12:54 PM
There are many large offices that don't allow cameras of any kind to be on employee's desks, for security reasons.

I wonder how this will play out in those types of businesses?

Apple Focus is not on Corprate sales. 99% of the companies out there with such a policy are still PC Only. the 1% who do will either use normal Monitors to save money or change their policy to allow the mac, or turn off the feature in the OS.

superleccy
Dec 26, 2006, 02:51 PM
DRM

bah humbug. get everyone addicted to the standard then set the DRM token.
Although this thread has changed my mind about HDCP (I now think yes I do want HDCP on my display), I think puuukeey has hit the nail on the head here.

SL

AppliedVisual
Dec 26, 2006, 03:07 PM
And for the last time Apple has competitive displays. Nobody really understands what a real LCD display is. Look at the companies that make real displays like Nec and LaCie... their 19 inchers start out at $1800 but ther specs can't be matched by Dell (who by the way sells consumer, not professional, displays)

I only will half-way agree with that... If you compare specs on 24" and 30" monitors, the Dell units typically are better than the NEC and LaCie models which cost a lot more. So I'm not sure what it is you're looking at. Next point is that LaCie is just an integrator and does not manufacture any LCD panels or backlight systems themselves... In fact, they don't even do their own software and firmware development. They simply integrate a monitor (or hard drive unit, optical disc drive, etc..) into a professional looking package and market to the graphic arts and multimedia professional. I've owned several LaCie products over the years and have yet to be impressed by any of them. I can go buy a Samsung 30" display right now for half of what LaCie is charging for the same panel and backlight system (Samsung) and the Samsung actually has more controls and tools for adjustments. I can buy colorimeters and software anywhere, why spend all that money to buy it from LaCie just because they drop it in the box with the monitor? The latest NEC pro monitors are nice in that they have color and light sensors that will automatically tell the monitor to adjust or compensate for drifts in color and light output. That's nifty and all, but in my experience, monitors don't change that much that quickly and regular calibration works just fine. ...Besides, NEC no longer makes their own LCD panels since they lost their ass with the IBM/Hitachi partnership deal... All their panels now are Hitachi, or the same ones used in the current Apple Cinema Displays (except the 30", which is Samsung).

Apple's Cinema Displays are no more "pro" than a Dell... Unless you feel that the brushed aluminum frame and the Apple logo is all that it takes to make something a "pro" item. Apple monitors are outdated and overpriced and if you think they look good compared to other LCDs on the market, then you need to stop comparing them to bottom of the line trash at CompUSA that's fed crappy signals which have been split a million and one times and only running the same aquarium screen saver 24/7 for the last 2 years.

FWIW, I run a nice little animation and video company and own several Macs and PCs (Win/Linux). Lots of different monitors here too, mostly Samsung, Dell and Apple. Other than the "hey, that's cool how that monitor matches the computer", the Apple monitors have no advantage over the others. In fact, Dell and HP have upgraded the Samsung panel systems in their 30" displays twice now in the past year while Apple still ships the 1st-generation Samsung in theirs. I had a 30" AC sitting next to a 30" Dell and they were indistinguishable, bought them both early '06 for $2,499 each and had a tought time deciding between the two... I bought the Apple first since it matched by G5 quad I just bought... I later grabbed the Dell one anyway and used it with a PC and also with a second G5 quad system. I just bought a new 30" Dell to use as a secondary display with the older one. It's night and day different and now it looks like I have a really nice screen sitting next to a crappy version of itself. It's far and away nicer than the older Dell or the Apple display... Why does Apple not update their monitors? On top of that, they still have the brass cannonballs to keep charging $1900 for that 30" too when I paid less than $1300 (after tax and shipping) for the Dell. And the Apple doesn't do anything the Dell doesn't... Sure, it's got the extra firewire port on it, but the Dell has a memory card reader, which has proved handy too. ...This is actually the Dell with the 2nd gen panel in it. Dell starts shipping the 3rd gen panel version in a week or two, hopefully Apple will do the same starting at MWSF??? HP has already started shipping their 30" 3rd-gen Samsung panel model and it has pro written all over it. 3 x DVI-HDCP inputs, color shift sensors (like the NEC monitors), USB interface and software to aid with color calibration. And then I look at what LaCie is offering... Oh wait, they don't have a 30"... They just have a 21.3" 1600x1200 unit as their top model. I haven't compared specs, but at 21.3" it's most likely a Hitachi panel, but might be LG. ...Yawn. How the f--- am I supposed to use a 1600x1200 monitor for any serious animation/video work and why would I want it for any reason at all when I can get equivalent or better 30" with 2560x1600 res for less money? And the LaCie has a 20ms response and 500:1 contrast... That sucks -- anything slower than 18ms response gives visible ghosting on high contrast edges. These are definitely not usable for people doing any motion graphics work.

Totally DIFFERENT MARKET for the Apple Displays than the Dell, Viewsonic, and other El Cheapo monitors. >_< :mad: Please believe that Apple has been making high spec displays for years, and I and plenty of other color syncing crazy professionals out there want them to NEVER STOP!

Not all Dell monitors are El Cheapo - just be aware of that. ;) I personally have nothing against Apple displays specifically - I own one 30" and a couple of their 23" models. Oh, and I just love the pink tint on two of my 23" displays that AppleCare refuses to cover and Apple now simply claims it's a "normal characteristic" of those displays. Anyway, when Apple came out with these displays, they were price competitive even with the Apple premium. But today they're not... They're using outdated panels at outdated prices and all the Apple kool-aid I can drink isn't going to make up for a $650 price difference between a 30" ACD and a 30" HP or Dell that has a newer, brighter panel with much higher color fidelity and a larger gamut - 92% NTSC, approaching many mid-range studio broadcast monitors. My $3400 Sony HD studio monitor does 94% NTSC gamut.

RESEARCH TO FIND OUT WHY !!

I've done plenty of research and own many of the products to prove it. What research have you done? Anyway, new monitors at MWSF should be a given... The 23" Hitachi panel is at EOL and will be discontinued very soon if not already. So looks like the 23" will be replaced with the newer 24" Samsung panel (the screen in the 24" iMac). 20" and 30" displays should see a much needed refresh as well. I don't expect new monitor sizes just yet, but probably before the end of the year when HDTFT goes mainstream. ...This is the driving focus behind resolution independence as HDTFT pushes LCD pixel densities from the current ~100dpi up to 220dpi. It's already been used in the IBM/Hitachi 22" panels with 3840x2400 resolution... Hey, ViewSonic sells monitors based on that panel -- I thought you said they only make cheap consumer crap? Or do $9,000 displays that found a huge audience in the medical and satellite imaging industries not count?

I was at the WaWa the other day and wearing this Apple t-shirt and the clerk behind the counter said you excited about the new displays? I said nah I don't need a 30'' display. The clerk said 30'' no no I'm talking about apple releasing plasma televisions......:rolleyes:


Interesting... I'll only believe that when I see it. However, if Apple does so, they better jump in with both feet and release something good. If it's just another 42" 1024x768PDP based on last year's Samsung or Panasonic glass that most other vendors are peddling, then I'll just have to sigh and move on. But if they want to truly go for it and deliver the goods, we'll be looking for 10K:1 contrast, 450cd/m2+, 1280x720 @ 42" and 1920x1080 @ 50" like the new Pioneer units as an example.

I could see this happening though... an Apple PDP with integrated iTV.

Elijahg
Dec 26, 2006, 03:45 PM
Hold on a minute... (Sorry if anyone's said this) How about the patent with a camera in the display itself, i.e under the LCD? Then you could have the same form factor, and the camera actually in the LCD. Good, no? :)

Digital Skunk
Dec 26, 2006, 10:49 PM
Interesting... I'll only believe that when I see it. However, if Apple does so, they better jump in with both feet and release something good. If it's just another 42" 1024x768PDP based on last year's Samsung or Panasonic glass that most other vendors are peddling, then I'll just have to sigh and move on. But if they want to truly go for it and deliver the goods, we'll be looking for 10K:1 contrast, 450cd/m2+, 1280x720 @ 42" and 1920x1080 @ 50" like the new Pioneer units as an example.

I could see this happening though... an Apple PDP with integrated iTV.

Applied Visuals... I see that you have a big mouth and no time on your hands to run your business to post things on this website that not too many people will read;) . My advice to you is to get back to work and stop talking so much. By the way. You insulted me in your post so I will refrain from posting any real response, that will lead to us two going back and forth over and over again with our slim facts and overbearing opinions. You spelled through wrong and you blabbed a bit too much about how many displays you have and how you PERSONALLY feel about Apple displays. Your facts were cute but not substantial.

But like I said. You seem to be a bit upset in your post so I will refrain from posting anything else until you apologize for your insult (Did you do your research...?) I don't know about you but I go to college to learn this stuff and got paid to do my research before I got hired at my states newspaper.

You insulted me.... so I insulted you.... :D Eye for an eye my friend:cool:

Digital Skunk
Dec 26, 2006, 11:10 PM
This Guy posted way more than you did but he makes more sense and has WAY MORE tangible facts to support his claim. :D

Sorry man... :o

24" Dell/23" Apple - IT'S TIME TO CLEAR UP THE MISCONCEPTIONS!
UPDATED: December 04, 2006

I am making this thread to help those that are on the fence over which display to get and who have only heard the misinformation so far. There's more to the displays than just on-paper specifications and Dell has tricked you with their higher brightness & contrast values. In reality, these screens are very different and are targeted at two different markets; Consumer-quality (Dell) and Pro-quality (Apple).

Almost all the discussions (but not all) have completely disregarded everything but the brightness and contrast and argued that "Unless you are a total mac fanboy incapable of buying anything without an apple logo on it, then go for the Dell. Because paying more for an Apple monitor and getting less brightness and contrast is ridiculous".

I'm going to be talking a lot about S-IPS vs S-PVA, so please read both of those paragraphs in this Wikipedia article to learn the difference.

Now, let's jump right in;

Apple Cinema Display 23"
Screen: 23" (.258mm Pixel Pitch)
LCD Panel: S-IPS (super in-plane switching) (made by LG-Philips) (Note: the recent Apple-display update bumped the contrast, suggesting a likely move to AS-IPS which is even better), the S-IPS panel type has less brightness and contrast compared to Dell's S-PVA-panel (Note: S-PVA is a consumer-grade panel type), but Apple's professional-grade S-IPS-panel pays off with its very accurate and stable (no shifting) color reproduction, which is why Apple uses it. Professionals expect no less than S-IPS for their graphics work. Note that all Apple monitors have been SWOP-certified; which ensures that the colors on the displays are so good that you can use them in a SWOP-certified soft-proofing workflow (ie. print). This along with the expensive (to manufacture), very high-quality S-IPS-panels make it worth the higher pricepoint, at least if color accurcy matters to you. This display shouldn't be compared to the Dell based on price; it should be taken for what it is, a high-end display for professionals while Dell's is for general users. Further testimony to Apple's amazing color quality are colorimeter tests that showed it to have an almost identical color spectrum to an expensive, reference-quality EIZO display! Forum user "ATD'" sums it up very well and provides links to the results.

Dell UltraSharp 2407FPW
Screen: 24" (.270mm Pixel Pitch) (Same amount of pixels, wider gap between pixels to spread them out an extra inch.)
LCD Panel: S-PVA (super patterned vertical alignment) (made by Samsung), higher brightness, higher contrast (only perpendicular, contrast sharply diminishes if you look off-axis at S-PVA-based panels, including severely warped colors), much less color accuracy due to the S-PVA characteristics. S-PVA-panels gives great brightness and contrast at the cost of acceptable (from an artists standpoint) color reproduction. Not much else to say.

How do they stack up against each other?
There's more than meets the eye when it comes to monitors, and specifications such as brightness and contrast mean little compared to the color quality or panel type. Make no mistake: Apple's (S-IPS) photo-professional displays are much better for graphics work with their accurate and stable colors, but at the cost of slightly lower brightness and contrast. If you don't need color accuracy, then Dell's (S-PVA) may be better for you with their great brightness and contrast. With the Dell you also get a lot more connectors, but then again; if you are a professional you don't hook up s-video, composite, component and other such TV-signals that it provides; you just need DVI to hook it up to a computer and that is exactly what Apple gives you. The Dell is a consumer-grade product that doubles as a TV-set, and even contains a deinterlacer by Faroudja to deinterlace interlaced TV-signals. Incidentally, Dell forgot to disable that chip even when the display was hooked up to a computer, leading to severe dithering (watch any gradient and you'll see "banding/stepping" in it) due to the Faroudja chip processing all graphics. This has been fixed in the (new) revision 3 of the monitor which now bypasses the Faroudja chipset whenever connected through VGA or DVI; phew! So make sure you ask for a rev. 3.

UPDATE: The information that the new 2407WFP was only 6-bit turned out to be misinformation spread by a Dell product manager who didn't do enough research when he answered the communitys questions about the 2407WFP a while back. He has looked into it again and found that it is indeed true 8-bit. Therefore this paragraph should be disregarded. (more information) [You should also be aware that there's a difference between Dell's new and old 24" monitors, the new 2407 model is dithered and only shows 18-bit (3x6-bit cells) colors, while the older 2405 has full 24-bit (3x8-bit cells) colors. Dell has reduced the color depth of each subpixel from an 8-bit to a 6-bit LCD so they could lower the response time (ms) from 16ms to 6ms by having less data to process, and I'm not in favor of sacrificing color depth for speed. A 6-bit display can only show 262,144 colors natively while an 8-bit display is able to show 16,777,216 colors natively. The 6-bit displays then dither those few colors in order to artificially show up to 16.2 million colors, a fake way of achieving "more" colors but it looks terrible. Therefore the older Dell 2405FPW is better than the new version. Decide which version you want, I'd try to find a 2405 if I were you no matter what you are going to use it for, as it has a deeper color range.]

Finally, the looks are very different between Dell and Apple monitors; and the one that obviously matches the aluminum Mac/MacBook Pro's is Apple's own ACD's, and that's enough for some to get the ACD while other's aren't as picky, or may even prefer Dell's more PC-like look and exterior. Ultimately you shouldn't base your decision on looks, it's much more important that you consider: am I in need of professional-grade color reproduction, or is a cheaper consumer-grade monitor enough?

Pixel Policy
Note that might be of interest: Since Apple's displays are aimed at professionals they have a pretty good pixel-policy, I have been able to instantly replace a defective display with a single dead pixel just by calling them and having them arrange a pickup, and didn't even have to explain why the dead pixel was annoying. They wouldn't release any numbers but rather said "we work with our customers on a case-by-case basis instead". So if you get a dead pixel you can just call them and convince them to send you a new monitor. This beats other manufacturer policies such as "a minimum of 5 dead pixels before a screen is deemed defective".

Quote:
At the manager's discretion any retail store is able to replace displays, laptops, or iMacs with even a single dead pixel, regardless of location. Even displays that exhibit dead pixels within the "normal" range can be replaced free of charge if the customer deems the so-called "pixel anomaly" unacceptable.
I have read the same policy on several sites, including one that contains a constantly updated rundown of every manufacturer's pixel policies, as collected by the team by calling the different companies regularly (in other words: it's reliable and up-to-date). I forgot the URL though.

HDCP, High-Definition Content Protection?
As you may know, the new Dell monitors support HDCP (the "-CP" stands for "Content Protection", HDCP is encrypted HDTV-video over DVI, to prevent piracy) while Apple's do not, and many discussions revolve around the lack of HDCP on Apple displays. Truth is, this only matters if you are going to hang the monitor on the wall and use it as a HDTV connected to a HDTV receiver with HDCP-output. You probably won't buy a professional photography LCD (Apple) and use it as a TV, but if you want to then you are out of luck (unless you buy a HDCP-remover to connect between the source and the monitor). It's also important to note that almost none of the computer-LCDs that exist today support HDCP, and the main reason the Dell supports it is because it's a TV/monitor hybrid; so they added HDCP in order to future-proof it for emerging TV-standards. It's your choice if this is a dealbreaker or not.

What about the contrast and brightness?
We're nearing the end now. Let this be a guide for the future; you shouldn't compare monitors using only on-paper specifications such as contrast and brightness, there is so much more depth to it than just using such a one-dimensional comparison. Speaking of which; you can't really compare those two aspects between these particular monitors in the first place since both monitors use different technology and would therefore look different even if they had the exact same brightness & contrast, since the Dell still uses an inferior display panel (S-PVA) to the Apple Cinema Display (S-IPS). As a way to compare the brightness of the two, I would best describe it as looking at a Dell 2407WFP at full brightness felt like I was looking into the sun, whereas the Apple 23" ACD felt like I was staring at a brightly lit lightbulb. Both of them had to be turned down a lot, so brightness is not an issue on either of them.

I'll leave you with the specifications and features of each monitor so that you can see what accessories you receive with the Dell. Hopefully I haven't bored you too much and you can now make an informed decision based on your needs rather than the current misinformation ("the Dell has better brightness & contrast so it's foolish to pay more for Apple"). You get what you pay for and Apple's professional LCD-panel is what gives it the higher price; professionals should look beyond the price difference and instead consider how vital it is that the colors they see on screen will come out the same in print, or that their graphics design is not done on a monitor with inaccurate colors.

Quote:
Apple M9178LL/A........Dell UltraSharp 2407FPW
Specifications:
Screen Size 23 Inches.........24 Inches
Technology S-IPS.........S-PVA
Viewing Angle 178/178........178/178
Brightness 400 cd/m2.........500 cd/m2 (450 cd/m2 for 2405FPW) Disregard for above reason, you can't compare two different LCD-technologies by looking only at this aspect.
Contrast Ratio 700:1.........1000:1 Disregard for above reason, you can't compare two different LCD-technologies by looking only at this aspect.
Resolution 1920x1200.........1920x1200
Response time 14ms.........6ms (16 ms for 2405FPW)
Pixel pitch .258mm .......... .270mm
Bit depth 8-bit............8-bit

Features:
Power Supply External.........Internal
Video In DVI.........DVI, VGA, SVIDEO, Composite, Component
Ports 2x USB, 2x 1394 FireWire.........2x USB, 9-in-2 Card Reader
Stand Fixed, Tilt Up/Down.........Height, Tilt Swivel, Tilt, Height Adjustable, 90 Rotate
Speakers None.........Optional, monitor powered
Warranty 1yr (3yr Opt).........3yr (4yr & 5yr Opt)
HDCP No.........Yes
Please spare us any "I can't see how the Dell colors could possibly be worse", if you are happy with the Dell then you're not in the target market for professional displays and should keep your opinion to yourself. The difference is kind of like going from 16-bit to 32-bit colors but not as extreme.

AppliedVisual
Dec 27, 2006, 12:19 AM
That's quite a post and the "Updates" to outdated info were a nice touch... Oh wait, you ripped off someone else's post without references. Nice to see you put all that effort in there.. Hmmm... Not sure I agree with some of those assessments there. But hey, someone wrote it and took the time to quote specs, so he must be right... Yeah. Comparing the 23" Apple to the 24" Dell... You do realize that the argument over HDCP is flawed, don't you? Once studios activate the high-res copy protection flag on upcoming HD-DVD and BluRay titles, you won't be able to view them at full 1080p resolution on your computer unless your display is HDCP compliant. But anyway... You completely sidestepped the bulk of the above discussion by ignoring the 30" displays. But that's OK, I'll go pay $650 more for the Apple 30" vs. the new HP 30" because it's better since you say so. ...Right?

Digital Skunk
Dec 27, 2006, 01:57 AM
:eek: That's quite a post and the "Updates" to outdated info were a nice touch... Oh wait, you ripped off someone else's post without references. Nice to see you put all that effort in there.. Hmmm... Not sure I agree with some of those assessments there. But hey, someone wrote it and took the time to quote specs, so he must be right... Yeah. Comparing the 23" Apple to the 24" Dell... You do realize that the argument over HDCP is flawed, don't you? Once studios activate the high-res copy protection flag on upcoming HD-DVD and BluRay titles, you won't be able to view them at full 1080p resolution on your computer unless your display is HDCP compliant. But anyway... You completely sidestepped the bulk of the above discussion by ignoring the 30" displays. But that's OK, I'll go pay $650 more for the Apple 30" vs. the new HP 30" because it's better since you say so. ...Right?

That's cute... you didn't say how that post proved everything you said in your original and flawed post incorrect. But I guess your too busy trying to sound good still but not really pulling any good facts. The post I posted was to show you that ACDs NECs and LaCies are professionally marketed monitors and that the Dell's aren't. But you just don't seem to read i guess, nothing personal there are plenty people who can't read and can run a quasi successful business.

Quickly.... the HP monitor is priced at $1999 so far which is the same price as the Apple one...check the web. The specs aren't that far off from the Apple OR the Dell display's and HP's marketing is crap... they say that it has the widest viewing angle on the market.... Apple's and Dell's 30 inchers have had 178 degrees since the start and Apple came out with it first months before Dell and NEC was first in the market to have 178 degrees of viewing.

Since you like to attack people and their intelligence (like you did in your original post to me) I will remind you that my post was not trashing Dell's and praising any other monitor. It simple stated that there were two different markets. There is nothing wrong with Dell monitors, they just aren't meant for Pro market... If you are a pro who uses Dell monitors don't let that get your panties in a bunch, whatever it takes to make money is your concern, not what some broke @$$ college student thinks. I have the 20 inch ACD and when I move out of my mothers house:o I might put some Dells next to my PowerMac G5 so I can pay the bills.

Dell monitors are perfect for those that don't want to pay for, need, or care about the specs on more expensive monitors. ACDs and other expensive LCDs are for those that can afford the improved specs, QC, and build quality.

Stop acting like I get paid to say Apple rocks and Dell sucks...
But don't worry.... keep up the crap... I am a college student on winter break my girlfriend went home:D and without her I have no life:p so I will be up all night pulling together my "research" that I didn't do... I will post my results (whether wrong or right) in about 12 hours... :eek: :D

AppliedVisual
Dec 27, 2006, 11:43 AM
:eek:

That's cute... you didn't say how that post proved everything you said in your original and flawed post incorrect.

So you plagarize another person's work, don't bother to give credit or references, and do you even question the validity of what you copied?

Quickly.... the HP monitor is priced at $1999 so far which is the same price as the Apple one...check the web.

I'll agree that HP's marketing is crap. But I can buy the HP 30" from several sources for $1489. It offers a lot more in the way of features, plus a newer version of the Samsung 30" panel and light system thatn the Apple. You keep drumming on about NEC and LaCie... Show me the products, because whatever universe you're living in must be different than the real world. NEC and LaCie don't even make products that compete or compare with the dsiplays from Apple, Samsung, etc.. They don't have a 24" or a 30" widescreen model. All of the LaCie monitors have terribly slow response times and are using older Hitachi and LG panels that have been mostly discontinued. LaCie only offers 19" and 21.3" 4:3 monitors with a maximum resolution of 1600x1200. What good is that? As I said before, I wouldn't want to do print work on it all day long with such little workspace when there are several other alternatives out there. It's impossible for use with HD video and with 20ms response, motion graphics work isn't going to be that pleasant of an experience either. Oh, and they're not HDCP compliant... That sucks for those of us who are forward thinking about standards and/or are currently authoring HD-DVD / BluRay titles. Yes, some of us are doing that already - shocking, I know. LaCie is just an integrator and they don't make or produce their own products. I can buy the same colorimeters and software they're peddling from several sources, why should I buy from them?

The specs aren't that far off from the Apple OR the Dell display's and HP's marketing is crap... they say that it has the widest viewing angle on the market.... Apple's and Dell's 30 inchers have had 178 degrees since the start and Apple came out with it first months before Dell and NEC was first in the market to have 178 degrees of viewing.

Yes, NEC was first to market with 178 degrees of viewing. That was nearly 10 years ago. Who gives a flying fart... NEC doesn't manufacture their own LCD panels anymore, they sold of their fab facility. They did that to concentrate on PDP development, but have since offloaded that in their Plasma production merger with Pioneer. Seriously, the only LCD monitor product NEC has that is even worth a crap is their 21" model with the color shift sensors. But once again, it suffers from being a 21" 4:3 monitor at 1600x1200. And why buy that when the 30" panels from (insert your favorite manufacturer here) are almost always a better buy, even the Apple one.

Since you like to attack people and their intelligence (like you did in your original post to me) I will remind you that my post was not trashing Dell's and praising any other monitor. It simple stated that there were two different markets. There is nothing wrong with Dell monitors, they just aren't meant for Pro market... If you are a pro who uses Dell monitors don't let that get your panties in a bunch, whatever it takes to make money is your concern, not what some broke @$$ college student thinks. I have the 20 inch ACD and when I move out of my mothers house:o I might put some Dells next to my PowerMac G5 so I can pay the bills.

Well, I wasn't attacking you and didn't mean to come across that way. Other than that, everything in that paragraph is pretty much something to agree on. I still don't agree with your assessment of ACDs -- I own several and I don't see the enchantment. Over the past 16 months, all my new monitor acquisitions have been 30" panels and since the only 30" 2560x1600 panel system on the market comes from Samsung, it's pretty easy to compare the different options. HP and Dell have the exclusive deal for the 3rd generation 30" panel and light system which doesn't expire until June 30th. Samsung will begin shipping 3rd gen panels to other OEMs and will be selling it under their own label sometime in July or thereabouts. Samsung and Sony labels of 30" (since Sony and Samsung share the same LCD fab plant) will be also shipping later this year with an LED backlight system.

Dell monitors are perfect for those that don't want to pay for, need, or care about the specs on more expensive monitors. ACDs and other expensive LCDs are for those that can afford the improved specs, QC, and build quality.

Well, having owned dozens of Apple systems and displays over the years along with countless PCs, most of which were built myself or in-house by employees, I can say that Apple QC isn't perfect. FWIW, I've had far more QC issues with ACDs than most other display type out there -- take the pink tint on the 23" displays for example. Apple acknowledges the problem, yet they have gone from swapping out displays to simply telling people it's a normal characteristic - deal with it. Not good. If you get a chance, go take a serious look at a properly configured Dell 30". If you can cope with the PC look and the fugly Dell logo on the front, then I think you'll agree it's a fine display. It's far more configurable or adjustable than any of the ACDs as its USB interface gives the user access to tons of controls - even the "service menu".

I really don't mean to praise Dell monitors. But they are some of the best ones out there right now - especially the 30" model. If Apple can show me one that is truly better, I'll buy it, even at their higher price. Just like I bought previous ACDs... The market is dynamic and Apple doesn't change as fast, they would rather play leap-frog. I know that when Apple finally does ship new ACD models, they will be the finest displays money can buy... 6 months later, they will be the same as all the other top monitors on the market, but with that 20% "Apple tax".

Seriously though, lay off the Apple kool-aid a bit. If the ACDs were so superior, everyone would be buying them. In reality, they're not much more expensive than a Dell or Samsung, especially to an end user who typically buys just one. But when I look at their 30" every day sitting right next to a Dell 30" and the Dell is indistinguishable out of the box and superior after I've had my way with its settings, I start to question the logic of buying another Apple 30". Time comes to buy two new Mac Pro systems and equip both with dual 30" - I'll go Dell (unless Apple can show me the superior product). At $600 cheaper per display or a savings of $2400 on those two workstations, I just added another 2GB RAM to each.

Stop acting like I get paid to say Apple rocks and Dell sucks...
But don't worry.... keep up the crap... I am a college student on winter break my girlfriend went home:D and without her I have no life:p so I will be up all night pulling together my "research" that I didn't do... I will post my results (whether wrong or right) in about 12 hours... :eek: :D

You have issues...

Go do your research... Maybe you'll find out why people are buying the Dell 24 and 30 " displays. Price isn't the only factor, nor is it the deciding factor in many situations. Post your findings if you want, I may or may not respond... I actually have to go get some work done. I'm no longer a broke-ass college student (I kinda wish I was). If I actually had all the free time in the world, I'd go out and hunt down all the research and references I needed to prove every point and then some. Because if that's all we're going to do is post an argument based on what other people have already posted elsewhere, then that's just stuipid... Starts to resemble a religious war. I'm simply stating my opinions based on my own experiences... As far as Apple displays go, their products are dated and overpriced. You can feel free to disagree all you want, but try owning a few different products and then see how you feel. FWIW, if I were trying to impress clients all the time, I would buy the ACD 30" without hesitation... The clients that do walk through here go nuts over them and how cool they look - especially when you have two of them paired with a quad G5. I would be lying if I said I didn't win some favortism or even a contract or two because clients thought I had some really professional looking and cool computers. So there is that factor to consider as well... And thus is a big reason why I see a lot of independent designers paying the extra for an ACD - even when they're on a tight budget. I have two independents that I sub out work to and they only buy ACDs for this reason alone.

YoYoMa
Dec 27, 2006, 12:36 PM
Is it true that HP and Dell have exclusive rights to the new Panel and light system till June 30th? So what exactly can Apple come out with? Just a built in iSight?