Butterflyphoto.com?

GnarleyMarley87 said:

Hey. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this site. It's the first time I've heard of them. Anyway, I've been interested in picking up an slr for about 2 years now. I've finally got some extra cash and extra time to spend taking photos. I was looking into the Nikon D50, but came across the Olympus Evolt E500. I've been using an olympus p&s for the past yeah and I have no complaints. And it seems as if Butterfly is selling an Evolt E500 (body only) for $449. You think I should pounce on it?

http://www2.butterflyphoto.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=OLYE500BODY&cm_mmc=CNET-_-Olympus-_-Digital%20SLR-_-EVOLT%20E-500%20Body%20Digital%20SLR%20Camera

Thanks.

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I've picked out lots of fun toys at ButterflyPhoto. No scams, just good prices. they will try (hard) to sell you a warranty, but that's their job!!

I think you really should consider the D50 more. It's not that much more money ($469 vs. $449). If you're not already set up with lenses etc., i think the Nikon is a much better camera. (This coming from a die-hard Canon guy)

edit: although the 8.2MP Rebel XT is $488...

carletonmusic said:

I think you really should consider the D50 more. It's not that much more money ($469 vs. $449). If you're not already set up with lenses etc., i think the Nikon is a much better camera. (This coming from a die-hard Canon guy)

edit: although the 8.2MP Rebel XT is $488...

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The story of this forum... Canon and Nikon.


Just get the Olympus. Stick it to "the man." Butterfly is very reputable.

I wouldn't.

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/ButterFly_Photo

Well 2 people here vouch for it, and carletonmusic is a reputable member of MR. I guess they might be OK because of that reason.

Sample size and self-reporting flaws

I honestly never even thought to look up its credibility - and I'm a little shocked now that I see the results, at least from that site! My worry is the sample size -- people who are really peeved are going to go straight there to complain. Not everyone with a fabulous experience goes and posts feedback on the (ex.) US Better Business Bureau's site.

In any case, I also look at the Pricegrabber ratings a lot because of the large sample size. ButterflyPhoto's rating is actually very good - and the sample size is almost 7000 people. It sounds like they push the warranties pretty hard (like all Brooklyn, NY camera shops) but don't intentionally run a scam operation by default.

By contrast, eTronics often sells grey market (Japanese version) cameras and passes them off as US models (no warranty) -- if you don't EXPLICITLY ask for the US version. They won't return gear without a 15% restocking fee, even if the box is still sealed! "Not refusing" the package is considered opening it to them. I had a horrible experience -- maybe just one corrupt guy (and almost had to initiate legal paperwork) -- but, not a "terrible" rating on Pricegrabber either, though not as stellar. I wouldn't dream of ordering from them again, but some people had purchases that were just fine.

So...I dunno. For some reason, 90% of all camera eTailers are in NYC. Stiff competition drives them all to the edge of business ethics. I say use your best judgement and keep your wits about you when you inspect the package!

Pricegrabber rating for Ritz Camera

As a major brick & mortar dealer, I consider Ritz Camera to be reputable even though I've never shopped there. They have a terrible rating on Pricegrabber (again, small sample size.) Yikes! Below is the Ritz Camera scorecard from Pricegrabber.com

Reseller Rating for ButterflyPhoto

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I think we might want to look at the data set a little more closely from ButterflyPhoto. I am not trying to defend them, just give them a fair shake from that site (I'm a recovering researcher )

The lifetime rating is almost 6.72 out of 10. The "past 6 months" rating is 5/10, which may indicate people fuming a bit more about holiday gifts during the rush season (many customer service ratings dip in late December).

But, look at the average rating for ALL resellers on that site -- 7.09 (it's unclear whether that is a 6 month or lifetime average.) A lifetime rating of 6.72 isn't that far away from the contextual mean score.

People self-report bad experiences far more than the good. I would read the comments for a while and see if the frustrations relate to shipping delays, poor customer service, or shady business practices.

Just to clarify, I've never actually ordered from them (I don't think, I'll have to ask my dad where my camera came from) but I know others who have and haven't had problems. Problems for me with an online dealer would be getting the wrong stuff, being over charged, never getting your stuff, or refusing to return any of the said problems. A problem to me wouldn't be "Their price is too high" Don't order from them. Or "It took too long to get to me" get faster shipping.

carletonmusic said:

I honestly never even thought to look up its credibility - and I'm a little shocked now that I see the results, at least from that site! My worry is the sample size -- people who are really peeved are going to go straight there to complain. Not everyone with a fabulous experience goes and posts feedback on the (ex.) US Better Business Bureau's site.

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True enough, but people generally have to be pretty ticked off before they'll bother to submit a complaint to the BBB too...and as of last month, Butterfly Photo had 61 filed complaints with the BBB.

In any case, I also look at the Pricegrabber ratings a lot because of the large sample size.

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Larger samples can help, but it is still a self-selected sample, and a dedictated individual with time to create "sockpuppets" can bias their rating pretty easily, as this PC World article attests (which specifically names Butterfly). YMMV, but I consider the first 'feedback' report listed for Butterfly to be a very blatant example of a sockpuppet, and in reading down through them, I see a few more that I view as highly suspicious.

For some reason, 90% of all camera eTailers are in NYC. Stiff competition drives them all to the edge of business ethics.

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B&H and Adorama are in NYC too, but their business ethics are hardly "on the edge." They're world-famous for being very customer focused and are rewarded with repeat business for it (disclaimer: such as myself).

I'd have to say that the general problem with "Big City" (NYC) eTailers is that it is easier for the scammers to hide (change business names), play bait & switch, etc, and in a big city, there's plenty of new victims who haven't learned to avoid them.

It is merely semi-coincidental that they're selling camera gear. They need something that has a high cost density (ie, small & expensive takes up less room) and which doesn't need to rely on repeat customers (such as film developing, etc). Consumer Electronics fits the bill quite well for them.


BTW, also see this NY Times article on the problem, plus the two websites that reveal the actual storefronts of these "reputable" businesses:

http://donwiss.com/pictures/ManhattanStores/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/
http://donwiss.com/pictures/OtherStores/


BTW, here's Butteryfly's. Note that their 'real' business name is: Accoona Corp., d.b.a. ButterflyPhoto.com, a.k.a. BuyDigitalDirect.com and DigitalETailor.com:

http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0081.htm
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0098.htm

I say use your best judgement and keep your wits about you when you inspect the package!

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I'm sorry, but if I can't ever trust them to deliver the stuff I ordered (because I suspect they're going to rip me off), then I should go use another retailer and let market forces put this loser out of business.

If we think about it, its pretty much the same reason why we give our business to Apple instead of a Windows PC: to avoid the bullshtuff.


-hh

-hh said:

B&H and Adorama are in NYC too, but their business ethics are hardly "on the edge." They're world-famous for being very customer focused and are rewarded with repeat business for it (disclaimer: such as myself).

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Right, I didn't mean to suggest that all NYC dealers were crooks -- just a high density of them.

Apple isn't crystal clean with the BBB either.

I'm not trying to be a fan boy for ButteryflyPhoto, I'm just saying that I've ordered from them in the past, have had great service and would do it again. Even if the operation isn't a walk-in store, they have their act together enough for me. For some, paying 10% more for B&H is worth it. I don't need their [really amazing] advice b/c I do my own research. Call me scroogy, but I figure out what I want, then I want it cheap. For certain things like cleaning products, cases, tripods, etc. - I go in my local camera stores, ask them all about the items, then buy them there - even at the notably higher prices. I willingly choose to pay more when I need advice or hands-on service.

But, I don't really want to argue about this stuff so much; I hear your point hh - BFP doesn't have a spotless record and there is more risk than with a walk-in place like B&H. If our friend here has any problems, I doubt I will buy from BFP again.

GnarleyMarley87 said:

I'm probably going to call up today and cancel the order and go down to Wolf Camera and pick up a D50 for the same price.

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Bitter lesson learned, eh? Good luck with cancelling the order! It is unfortunate that you went ahead with that order even after having been warned....

Yes, going to a local brick-and-mortar shop, even if one has to pay a little more in price or in state taxes, is still the safest and best way to approach the purchase of something like a camera. As I've said in other threads before, you're paying not only for the actual item(s), you're paying for the service that is available to you in person as opposed to over the phone, which can be pretty important when questions or problems arise. I am fortunate in that I live in an area where there are several good camera shops so that I can just walk into the store and see whatever it is that I am thinking about buying.... I realize that this isn't always possible for those who live in less urban areas. B&H is pretty much the "gold standard" for NYC internet camera dealers, and there are also other excellent shops around the country who are reputable: in the Washington metropolitan area there is Penn Camera, which has brick-and-mortar stores (I think it's now eight of them around MD, VA and DC) and also a very good online presence.

Anyone who is preparing to buy a camera or lens should first really consider dealing with their local camera shops if there are any; if going online is pretty much the only option, well, he/she really needs to do his or her homework, starting with resellerratings and Don Wiss' site...

thanks for posting the reply about BFP. I guess i was always lucky.

they are definitely off of my list now!

Update: 4 years later

Ordered Nikon D90 from Butterfly; best price, "In Stock". Typical call a day later saying credit card needed to be verified but really a ploy to get me to buy more accessories. Added a couple small items. Week later order still "Processing". Called to find status & told it would ship within 2 days. 3 days later still "Processing". Called & was told everyone in meeting. Called again an hour later & spoke to salesman. Camera was NOT in stock. Cancelled order.

Immediately called Adorama. Order shipped that day. Paid a little more but it was worth it. Nice salesman; Norman.

BOTTOM LINE: BUTTERFLY PHOTO IS DISHONEST RIP OFF! DO NOT BUY FROM BUTTERFLY PHOTO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

Used.

I have not had one problem buying anything used off CL, and I must have spent a total over $3k buying used gear.

Then again, I have never had a problem with Adorama, NatCam, or West Photo.

I would never buy from a small online store that does not have brick/mortar roots though. Too many horror stories of gray market/baitnswitch/out of stock etc!!!

For used, I've been told that B&H, Adorama, and Keh.com are the places to go. And FWIW, I use an Olympus E500. I purchased it via wolfcamera.com (BIG mistake - don't ever order from them), and paid about $650 for the camera + 2 lenses ... 3 years ago. Kinda makes me happy that it's still retailing for what I paid